Nicely done video. The old instruments were built to last several lifetimes if one took care of them. The new David White products are nice, but the vintage are something to cherish (and still use).
That's actually an 8300, not a LT8-300. The original model of the 8300 was a 3000. The instrument in your video was likely produced around the early to mid-70's, based on the serial # tag that was common back then for it and the 8114 , which was the 12 inch dumpy-type level cousin of the 8300 with the same 26X optics. The LT8-300 was the model David White came out with that is still produced that replaced the 8300. The 8300 was a well-designed instrument , and a real workhorse of an instrument used mostly in the field by concrete contractors. The 2 lock lever design was revolutionary as it created good stability when securing the scope for measuring grades and elevations. It created a 3-point stability between the 2 locked levers and the axis trunion on the opposite side of the instrument. The horizontal circle is relatively rough as far as it's divisions go and is really not accurate enough to use for squaring up concrete foundations. It's really just suitable for a rough reference, as well as the vertical arc of the instrument. A theodolite is a more appropriate instrument for squaring up a foundation, as it's angle accuracies can be anywhere from 5 seconds to 1 minute of arc. Buyer beware when buying a 8300 or a 8114 on the Ebays of the world. Parts have not been available for these nstruments for over 30 years now. The biggest problem with the 8300's and the 8114's that are still around are the eyepiece optics. There are 4 lens' in the eyepiece tube and the lens closest to the eye can all too often have the coating worn off, which impairs the clarity of the optics to a point where you cant focus on a target. Unfortunately, David White dropped the 8300 and 8114 sometime in the mid-80's and came up with the LT8-300. According to David White executives and salesmen at the time, the tooling at the David White factory was wearing out for production of the 8300 and the 8114, so instead of repairing the tooling for the instruments, they re-tooled for production of the LT8-300, and dropped the 8114 completely. And, it was a huge mistake on their part. Early models for several years of the LT8-300 were a disaster. They had a much shorter level vial that was of poor quality and would not stay level. The LT8-300's also have a really mickey-mouse telescope frame that was so unstable then, and still is now. It far too easily becomes un-anchored from below and requires a lot of disassembly of the instrument to re-anchor it. At some point , they did change the level vial to a longer, more stable and accurate one, but it was, and still is like putting a bow tie on a pig. Whether for plumb, or for level the LT8-300 does not stay in calibration as well as the 8300's did. So, this unfortunately adds up to more maintence cost for the end user. It's also a headache for an instrument shop that sells these, when these instruments are not as reliable and accurate as they used to be. David White went unnecessarily out of their way to turn a workhorse of an instrument into a lemon. The 8300's were much better designed, and crafted for long run accuracy in the field. That's why you still see 8300's and 8114's occasionally in the field today.
Although I do have a background in Survey, it's WAY in the background. Bought 8300 with the case and tri pod at a yard sale $60. Look and works great. Thanks for the info on the 8300
The Transit eye piece is foggy and cleaning the outer lens is easy but is there a way to clean the inside of the lenses? as this is what seems to be the problem in my case matter. Thanks in advance!
Very nice video I like the transit with the verniers on the outside most have them inside but some are very hard to see well. I payed 200.00 for a Sokkia model on ebay and the green shaded lens are extremely hard to read. I deeply regret buying it. Others had the same problem because they had tried to change or remove the shades. I wish now that I had gotten one more like the one in your video. Simple is always better.
I used to have a green glass one (Sokkia TM-6) and could only read it with the mirror aimed directly at the sun, or with the nightlight attached. Wouldn't work indoors or overcast.
The 8300 is a fine instrument as was its predecessor, the model 3000 "improved" level transit. I still use both for the occasional project. Treat them with respect and they will last several lifetimes.
My 8300 David White transit is identical to this one but I can no longer look through the scope; it is now completely dark. Can this be repaired and if so what do you suggest? Thank you!
If you remove just the eyepiece tube from the telescope, and hold it up to a light, can you see light through it? There are two mounting screws to remove, but then the whole thing slides right out of the front of the telescope. They are the two screws closest to the eyepiece, located at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock looking along the telescope. If you can't see light through the eyepiece tube, they you're out of luck - the eyepiece tube is the most important part and is irreplaceable. If you can see light, then shine a bright flashlight into the front end of the telescope and see if there is an obstruction somewhere else.
Thanks Tim. I have a DW, but might be a few years older. My lens is foggy. Is there a manual or procedure for dismantling the telescope and cleaning the lens?
Pretty much only the outer lense surfaces of they eyepiece tube can be cleaned once it's removed from the telescope. And also the outer surface of the front lense at the front of the telescope. The inner surface of the front lense is too difficult to access and the lenses inside the eyepiece tube are impossible to get to.
I have my fathers Keuffel & Esser @/50880 with the original wooden case and the old wooded expanding leg tripod. Can you offer any information on these? I also have a Warren Knight Co. model #39-BF with it's wooden case and tripod. They were my fathers, he was a builder, passed at 91. Trying to find a good new home for these amazing classics.
I'm not familiar with either of those. Basically if it's a transit with a big vertical circle people like them for display pieces. If it's more of a builder's level like the 8300 they're not worth as much.
So how do you calibrate it so the rotation and telescope are in level with the level, I know I'm probably wording that incorrectly but I just need to know how to check calibration.
Tim, Great Video. FYI. AtoZ Manuals is installs an unwanted toolbar and New Tab (ADWARE). This adware may inflict trouble when installed on Internet Explorer, Google Chrome, or Mozilla Firefox. Obviously, The adware also incorporate unknown search as your default home page. It's not a good download site. I would also like a copy of this manual, but not from this site. Is there anyplace else I an get it? thanks Bernie
My father left me a David White Plain Utility Level, combination level transit. The instruction manual shows a 1954 copyright. I've been having problems getting it calibrated. The bubble stays centered when rotating the scope from 0 to 90 degrees but goes off center 1/16 inch at 180 and 270 degrees. I've verified that the tripod mount is perfectly level. I also removed the scope from the degree base ring and verified that it's perfectly level. Any ideas what may be wrong?
The bubble vial is not perfectly perpendicular to the vertical axis of rotation. There are small adjusting screws to fix this. Basically you split the difference and bring the bubble halfway back to center (1/32") in your case. The process is described in EFH1 - page 650 - 1.55. directives.sc.egov.usda.gov/OpenNonWebContent.aspx?content=47739.wba
Your instrument needs to be calibrated by an instrument shop that knows what they're doing with older instruments like your David White. You may have a model 3000, which was the original model of the 8300 that pre-dates it. If your carrying case is made of wood, it is likely a 3000. If it's made of fiberglass with a metal bottom, or the entire case is made of plastic, then it is likely a 8300.. Both models were some of the first instruments I learned how to work on when I started in the land surveying instrument business in the 70's. These days, whenever I take in older instruments like yours for repair, at no charge I always asess the optics and leveling accuracy of the instrument before taking it in for repair. There is a critical bearing in the centers of the instrument that newer and older models rely on for it's leveling accuracy as you rotate the instrument. The condition and repeatability of that bearing is critical for the instrument staying level over the leveling screws , as well as between the leveling screws. Step 1 of the proper calibration process if the optics are clear, is to adjust the leveling error in the bubble, so it repeats for level in all directions the scope is turned, including over the leveling scews, as well as in between. In between is important too, as you never know which way you will be pointing with the instrument in the field. Step 2 is to adjust any plumb error the instrument may have. Step 3 is to adjust the front lock lever to where it is approximately 1 minute of arc above the level point in the collimator, and then adjust the back lock lever where it is approximately 1 minute of arc below the level point in the collimator. With the lock levers set equally like this above and below the level point in the collimator this gets them in a good +/- position that when they are both engaged gets thems very close to a true level line of sight. From there , and with both lock levers engaged, a fine adjustment is made to the crosshairs/ reticle to bring the optics into absolute alignment for level. Then you test the accuracy and repeatability for level when engaging and re-engaging the lock levers numerous times. A technician that knows this instrument will also rotate the instrument over and over 360 degrees to ensure it's repeating for a true level line of sight when sighting into the collimator. This is also how you test the center bearing to see if it's functioning properly and enabling the instrument to repeat for level. The 4 screws closer to the eye on the outside of the telescope near the reticle screws are for adjusting the field of view to center up the reticle in the scope. They don't move the reticle, they move the eyepiece tube to center up the field of view. Calibrating your instrument in the field is difficult, at best, as with a transit-level like this there are many facets of the instrument and it's abilities that have to all work in coincidence. Also, if your instrument is actually one of the original models, like the 3000, it has a center spindle that has to be properly set that goes all the way down to the bottom of the centers. They got rid of this longer center spindle when the 8114 and the 8300 were produced. The newer spindle on the 8300 and the newer renditions of the instrument only goes down through the center bearing, and not further.
How do you get your initial North reference location? I hope that makes sense. I want to buy an older transit to shoot a property boundry line. Thanks.
For basic agricultural stuff we just set out an approximate line based off magnetic north. Those surveys are never tied into a state or global coordinate system. In most states, you need to have a surveying license to delineate property lines and have them mean anything. Professional surveyors use GPS surveying equipment to establish grid north, and to tie into a state or global grid system.
Great video Tim! Is there an online resource for a manual including a parts diagram? Also can you recommend a book or online resource for more information on the use of these vintage transits?
Unfortunately there aren't online manuals or resources for this model. For transit use, I would start someone with EFH1 - that's the NRCS Engineering Field Handbook Chapter 1. This link should work: directives.sc.egov.usda.gov/OpenNonWebContent.aspx?content=25276.wba
Tim Clark That's perfect! Thanks! I just started going through it and I can tell it is exactly what I was looking for. Oh and I see there is a little math involved. Since when did they start using letters in that? Ha Ha Ha! Thanks again!
Thank you for the excellent video, Tim! Earlier today, for the first time in about thirty-five years, I used my Model 8300 to help a friend, who is having some drainage problems. Noting Jerry Stoppok's (now one-year-old) request for a user manual, I have scanned my sixteen-page guide and sent it to you, via email, as a PDF file. Perhaps, you will know of a convenient way to upload it so that it can be made available for easy downloading by anyone, who might still wish to have it. With thanks and best wishes, G. de D.
Thanks Garrick! I had an old scanned copy that I had sent to a couple people but yours is much better. I attached the exploded parts diagrams to it and put it up here: www.pdf-archive.com/2016/05/09/david-white-lt-8300-manual/
Thanks for this, Tim! Since I did not have the exploded parts diagrams, I have downloaded the modified PDF that you prepared. Because I no longer use the instrument very much, it is, of course, unlikely that I shall need authentic replacement parts... which would, in any case, be very difficult, if not impossible, to find. Nevertheless, it's better to have the diagrams and not to need them than vice versa. Before eventually having the reticule professionally replaced (expensive work, costing $114.42 CAD, back in 1985... I still have the invoice), I had done a gentle partial disassembly of my 8300, without the benefit of any parts diagrams. After cautiously "feeling my way," so to speak, and not being an experienced (or very enthusiastic) collector of spider silk, I had tried replacing the broken cross-hairs with the thinnest (about 0.003-inch diameter) wire that I could find and was rather disappointed to see just how bulky that "thin" wire looked when I had reassembled the instrument. Both because the replacement reticule has survived the last thirty plus years intact and because it has "floating" stadia "hairs," I suspect that the Keuffel & Esser technician used an etched-glass replacement rather than spider silk.
You won't be able to get an exact replacement, but you could make your own fairly easily. I don't think mine was original. Here's a look at it on the parts diagram: imgur.com/c51DlwE I think a beading/jewelry-making store would be your best bet. They would have the chain, jump-ring/split-ring and clasp.
There's already a lot out there - I don't think I could add much to it. Try searching for "vernier scale" - they're used all over the place on non-electric precision tools.
Still use this today works great! Over 40 years old!
Nicely done video. The old instruments were built to last several lifetimes if one took care of them. The new David White products are nice, but the vintage are something to cherish (and still use).
Thank you, Tim
Both for the video and posting Garrick's User Manual (Thank you, Garrick)
You made my day a lot easier.
Capt. Art
That's actually an 8300, not a LT8-300. The original model of the 8300 was a 3000. The instrument in your video was likely produced around the early to mid-70's, based on the serial # tag that was common back then for it and the 8114 , which was the 12 inch dumpy-type level cousin of the 8300 with the same 26X optics. The LT8-300 was the model David White came out with that is still produced that replaced the 8300. The 8300 was a well-designed instrument , and a real workhorse of an instrument used mostly in the field by concrete contractors. The 2 lock lever design was revolutionary as it created good stability when securing the scope for measuring grades and elevations. It created a 3-point stability between the 2 locked levers and the axis trunion on the opposite side of the instrument. The horizontal circle is relatively rough as far as it's divisions go and is really not accurate enough to use for squaring up concrete foundations. It's really just suitable for a rough reference, as well as the vertical arc of the instrument. A theodolite is a more appropriate instrument for squaring up a foundation, as it's angle accuracies can be anywhere from 5 seconds to 1 minute of arc. Buyer beware when buying a 8300 or a 8114 on the Ebays of the world. Parts have not been available for these nstruments for over 30 years now. The biggest problem with the 8300's and the 8114's that are still around are the eyepiece optics. There are 4 lens' in the eyepiece tube and the lens closest to the eye can all too often have the coating worn off, which impairs the clarity of the optics to a point where you cant focus on a target. Unfortunately, David White dropped the 8300 and 8114 sometime in the mid-80's and came up with the LT8-300. According to David White executives and salesmen at the time, the tooling at the David White factory was wearing out for production of the 8300 and the 8114, so instead of repairing the tooling for the instruments, they re-tooled for production of the LT8-300, and dropped the 8114 completely. And, it was a huge mistake on their part. Early models for several years of the LT8-300 were a disaster. They had a much shorter level vial that was of poor quality and would not stay level. The LT8-300's also have a really mickey-mouse telescope frame that was so unstable then, and still is now. It far too easily becomes un-anchored from below and requires a lot of disassembly of the instrument to re-anchor it. At some point , they did change the level vial to a longer, more stable and accurate one, but it was, and still is like putting a bow tie on a pig. Whether for plumb, or for level the LT8-300 does not stay in calibration as well as the 8300's did. So, this unfortunately adds up to more maintence cost for the end user. It's also a headache for an instrument shop that sells these, when these instruments are not as reliable and accurate as they used to be. David White went unnecessarily out of their way to turn a workhorse of an instrument into a lemon. The 8300's were much better designed, and crafted for long run accuracy in the field. That's why you still see 8300's and 8114's occasionally in the field today.
Although I do have a background in Survey, it's WAY in the background. Bought 8300 with the case and tri pod at a yard sale $60. Look and works great. Thanks for the info on the 8300
The Transit eye piece is foggy and cleaning the outer lens is easy but is there a way to clean the inside of the lenses? as this is what seems to be the problem in my case matter. Thanks in advance!
Very nice video I like the transit with the verniers on the outside most have them inside but some are very hard to see well. I payed 200.00 for a Sokkia model on ebay and the green shaded lens are extremely hard to read. I deeply regret buying it. Others had the same problem because they had tried to change or remove the shades. I wish now that I had gotten one more like the one in your video. Simple is always better.
I used to have a green glass one (Sokkia TM-6) and could only read it with the mirror aimed directly at the sun, or with the nightlight attached. Wouldn't work indoors or overcast.
The 8300 is a fine instrument as was its predecessor, the model 3000 "improved" level transit. I still use both for the occasional project. Treat them with respect and they will last several lifetimes.
My 8300 David White transit is identical to this one but I can no longer look through the scope; it is now completely dark. Can this be repaired and if so what do you suggest? Thank you!
If you remove just the eyepiece tube from the telescope, and hold it up to a light, can you see light through it? There are two mounting screws to remove, but then the whole thing slides right out of the front of the telescope. They are the two screws closest to the eyepiece, located at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock looking along the telescope. If you can't see light through the eyepiece tube, they you're out of luck - the eyepiece tube is the most important part and is irreplaceable. If you can see light, then shine a bright flashlight into the front end of the telescope and see if there is an obstruction somewhere else.
Thanks Tim. I have a DW, but might be a few years older. My lens is foggy. Is there a manual or procedure for dismantling the telescope and cleaning the lens?
Pretty much only the outer lense surfaces of they eyepiece tube can be cleaned once it's removed from the telescope. And also the outer surface of the front lense at the front of the telescope. The inner surface of the front lense is too difficult to access and the lenses inside the eyepiece tube are impossible to get to.
There are two parts that stick up above where the parts lock the telescope they have a hole in each one is this for aiming?
I have my fathers Keuffel & Esser @/50880 with the original wooden case and the old wooded expanding leg tripod. Can you offer any information on these?
I also have a Warren Knight Co. model #39-BF with it's wooden case and tripod.
They were my fathers, he was a builder, passed at 91.
Trying to find a good new home for these amazing classics.
I'm not familiar with either of those. Basically if it's a transit with a big vertical circle people like them for display pieces. If it's more of a builder's level like the 8300 they're not worth as much.
So how do you calibrate it so the rotation and telescope are in level with the level, I know I'm probably wording that incorrectly but I just need to know how to check calibration.
Use the Two-peg test described in EFH1 and other online resources.
What years were the 8300 in production? The serial number on mine seem to have been omitted from the records according to a website.
Tim,
Great Video.
FYI. AtoZ Manuals is installs an unwanted toolbar and New Tab (ADWARE). This adware may inflict trouble when installed on Internet Explorer, Google Chrome, or Mozilla Firefox. Obviously, The adware also incorporate unknown search as your default home page. It's not a good download site. I would also like a copy of this manual, but not from this site. Is there anyplace else I an get it?
thanks
Bernie
www.pdf-archive.com/2016/05/09/david-white-lt-8300-manual/
My father left me a David White Plain Utility Level, combination level transit. The instruction manual shows a 1954 copyright. I've been having problems getting it calibrated. The bubble stays centered when rotating the scope from 0 to 90 degrees but goes off center 1/16 inch at 180 and 270 degrees. I've verified that the tripod mount is perfectly level. I also removed the scope from the degree base ring and verified that it's perfectly level. Any ideas what may be wrong?
The bubble vial is not perfectly perpendicular to the vertical axis of rotation. There are small adjusting screws to fix this. Basically you split the difference and bring the bubble halfway back to center (1/32") in your case. The process is described in EFH1 - page 650 - 1.55. directives.sc.egov.usda.gov/OpenNonWebContent.aspx?content=47739.wba
Your instrument needs to be calibrated by an instrument shop that knows what they're doing with older instruments like your David White. You may have a model 3000, which was the original model of the 8300 that pre-dates it. If your carrying case is made of wood, it is likely a 3000. If it's made of fiberglass with a metal bottom, or the entire case is made of plastic, then it is likely a 8300.. Both models were some of the first instruments I learned how to work on when I started in the land surveying instrument business in the 70's. These days, whenever I take in older instruments like yours for repair, at no charge I always asess the optics and leveling accuracy of the instrument before taking it in for repair. There is a critical bearing in the centers of the instrument that newer and older models rely on for it's leveling accuracy as you rotate the instrument. The condition and repeatability of that bearing is critical for the instrument staying level over the leveling screws , as well as between the leveling screws. Step 1 of the proper calibration process if the optics are clear, is to adjust the leveling error in the bubble, so it repeats for level in all directions the scope is turned, including over the leveling scews, as well as in between. In between is important too, as you never know which way you will be pointing with the instrument in the field. Step 2 is to adjust any plumb error the instrument may have. Step 3 is to adjust the front lock lever to where it is approximately 1 minute of arc above the level point in the collimator, and then adjust the back lock lever where it is approximately 1 minute of arc below the level point in the collimator. With the lock levers set equally like this above and below the level point in the collimator this gets them in a good +/- position that when they are both engaged gets thems very close to a true level line of sight. From there , and with both lock levers engaged, a fine adjustment is made to the crosshairs/ reticle to bring the optics into absolute alignment for level. Then you test the accuracy and repeatability for level when engaging and re-engaging the lock levers numerous times. A technician that knows this instrument will also rotate the instrument over and over 360 degrees to ensure it's repeating for a true level line of sight when sighting into the collimator. This is also how you test the center bearing to see if it's functioning properly and enabling the instrument to repeat for level. The 4 screws closer to the eye on the outside of the telescope near the reticle screws are for adjusting the field of view to center up the reticle in the scope. They don't move the reticle, they move the eyepiece tube to center up the field of view. Calibrating your instrument in the field is difficult, at best, as with a transit-level like this there are many facets of the instrument and it's abilities that have to all work in coincidence. Also, if your instrument is actually one of the original models, like the 3000, it has a center spindle that has to be properly set that goes all the way down to the bottom of the centers. They got rid of this longer center spindle when the 8114 and the 8300 were produced. The newer spindle on the 8300 and the newer renditions of the instrument only goes down through the center bearing, and not further.
Need new cross hairs on mine any recommendations ?
Tryin to figure out why the telescope is black.cant see anything.cover is off.
How do you get your initial North reference location? I hope that makes sense. I want to buy an older transit to shoot a property boundry line. Thanks.
For basic agricultural stuff we just set out an approximate line based off magnetic north. Those surveys are never tied into a state or global coordinate system. In most states, you need to have a surveying license to delineate property lines and have them mean anything. Professional surveyors use GPS surveying equipment to establish grid north, and to tie into a state or global grid system.
Great video Tim! Is there an online resource for a manual including a parts diagram? Also can you recommend a book or online resource for more information on the use of these vintage transits?
Unfortunately there aren't online manuals or resources for this model. For transit use, I would start someone with EFH1 - that's the NRCS Engineering Field Handbook Chapter 1. This link should work: directives.sc.egov.usda.gov/OpenNonWebContent.aspx?content=25276.wba
Tim Clark That's perfect! Thanks! I just started going through it and I can tell it is exactly what I was looking for. Oh and I see there is a little math involved. Since when did they start using letters in that? Ha Ha Ha! Thanks again!
Thank you for the excellent video, Tim! Earlier today, for the first time in about thirty-five years, I used my Model 8300 to help a friend, who is having some drainage problems. Noting Jerry Stoppok's (now one-year-old) request for a user manual, I have scanned my sixteen-page guide and sent it to you, via email, as a PDF file. Perhaps, you will know of a convenient way to upload it so that it can be made available for easy downloading by anyone, who might still wish to have it. With thanks and best wishes, G. de D.
Thanks Garrick! I had an old scanned copy that I had sent to a couple people but yours is much better. I attached the exploded parts diagrams to it and put it up here: www.pdf-archive.com/2016/05/09/david-white-lt-8300-manual/
Thanks for this, Tim!
Since I did not have the exploded parts diagrams, I have downloaded the modified PDF that you prepared. Because I no longer use the instrument very much, it is, of course, unlikely that I shall need authentic replacement parts... which would, in any case, be very difficult, if not impossible, to find. Nevertheless, it's better to have the diagrams and not to need them than vice versa. Before eventually having the reticule professionally replaced (expensive work, costing $114.42 CAD, back in 1985... I still have the invoice), I had done a gentle partial disassembly of my 8300, without the benefit of any parts diagrams. After cautiously "feeling my way," so to speak, and not being an experienced (or very enthusiastic) collector of spider silk, I had tried replacing the broken cross-hairs with the thinnest (about 0.003-inch diameter) wire that I could find and was rather disappointed to see just how bulky that "thin" wire looked when I had reassembled the instrument. Both because the replacement reticule has survived the last thirty plus years intact and because it has "floating" stadia "hairs," I suspect that the Keuffel & Esser technician used an etched-glass replacement rather than spider silk.
I lost the plumb bob hook for my 8300. Any ideas for a replacement supplier?
You won't be able to get an exact replacement, but you could make your own fairly easily. I don't think mine was original. Here's a look at it on the parts diagram: imgur.com/c51DlwE I think a beading/jewelry-making store would be your best bet. They would have the chain, jump-ring/split-ring and clasp.
how mush do they go for?
I have removed the two lenses on the telescope to clean them and now I need to assemble and wonder how to orient the curvature of the two lenses.
do you know where I can mine repaired i can no longer see the cross hairs ?
Mohave Instrument Co. in California is the only place I know of.
How many degrees does it measure
It's 45 degrees up and down vertically, 360 degrees horizontally.
can you kindly make a video on how to read transit caliper specially its vertical angle?
There's already a lot out there - I don't think I could add much to it. Try searching for "vernier scale" - they're used all over the place on non-electric precision tools.
thanks
-11 & -8. Dash not x by in thread count