What happens if GriGri gets trapped in the first Quickdraw?
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- Опубликовано: 28 мар 2022
- If a light Belayer gets trapped in the first Bolt can this unblock the GriGri?
Previous video demonstrating how GriGri can fail if you don't hold the break side of the Rope: • What happens if you Do...
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Should have mentioned that in some cases it's a good idea to unclip the first bolt to avoid this and have more freedom while belaying ;)
As the belayer how do you unclip the first quickdraw safely while your climber is still climbing?
can you cover the Ohm?
@@user-qn9ku2fl2b very good idea!!!!!!!
@@switchfootforever24 If bolt is low then belayer can reach it in a safe moment and unclip. Another option Climber unclips it after clipping the 2nd bolt, or if it's safe enough skips 1st bolt completely. But neither is a must. It's situational and can help a bit.
@@user-qn9ku2fl2b Ohm is on my list... already did some tests so time ago but need mooore
Excellent video as always. Grigris are typically safe but in no way foolproof like many people believe/assume them to be. Always practice good belaying techniques. Thanks for all you do
it's not the equipment that keeps you safe, it's the practices of the climbers
I don't understand what points you're trying to make. Firstly, NOT holding the brake side while belaying shows COMPLETE ignorance in belaying, so why bother? I've been climbing over 30 years,most of it with a GF that I outweighed by a hundred pounds. She never got launched into the first bolt, and only once got yanked into the wall from standing away from it (the 2nd worst mistake), but her hand never came off the brake (of her ATC).
good belay techniques like testing climbing scenarios without climbers on the other end. Seriously foolish and potentially fatal thinking here.
Hi Ben, I would have made a knot as backup to your backup hand, just in case. If your hand was sucked into the Grigri maybe you would let go. But nice video, many people are not aware of the fact that this could happen
Good idea ;) I actually did smaller tests before to see how it feels and if I can control the situation, but yea extra safety in these tings is smart! Thanks
@@HardIsEasy Ooops, I expected a 2nd rope from the top..
Yes, when testing such borderline dangerous things it’s a good idea to have backups. Having a second rope + belayer for the climber would have been even better than just a backup knot.
@@Mike-oz4cv and drop something that doesn't die when it hits the ground. Like a weighted pack.
And one of the many reasons why we mainly use (and teach) fixed-point lead belay and gloves for multi-pitch lead belaying!
Here in Austria we also almost always belay from the fixed point on multi pitches. I don’t understand why they belay from the harness in some regions, it makes the belayer slam into the wall completely uncontrolled, especially on a hanging belay and especially when factor 1 or 2 falls are a possibility.
Gri-Gri and its replicas has the highest accident rate because people relax too much with the comfort of 'self blocking' (eventho it is written otherwise in the PETZL manual :) ) . Very nice video to show this possible scenarios and consequences! Cheers!
This is so needed in the climbing community. I regularly use your well researched videos to solve disputes between climbers!
Very important information! Thank you.
Thanks for another great video! It's really disheartening seeing SO many people out there belaying so poorly with gri-gris. -_-
Cool! Thanks for doing all this testing. I think another good practice is to just do a mule knot in the rope itself as a backup whenever the situation is sketchy and you might need both hands to protect yourself.
Thank you for putting in the work and helping keep people safe.
I think I noticed a something about the way they were catching the lead falls that caused the gri-gri to release. Specifically that it seemed that trying to give a dynamic catch and using the belayers body to help cushion the fall (as we are trained to do) allowed the gri-gri to get pinned open briefly. At 2:15, we can see that most of the belayers weight looks to be on his feet, as he stands up into the catch. I would agree that the gri-gri may fail in such a scenario - but I don't agree that it is quite so similar to the scenario of a belayer being dragged up 8 feet to the first bolt. I believe the gri gri will be cammed up and under bodyweight tension by the time it will arrive at the first draw and it won't be so easy to defeat.
Watching carefully the catch starting 2:10 we can see the gri gri initially cams and then starts pulling the belayer up. Belayer gets pulled out of a sitting position, and as the gri-gri hits the first draw the belayer begins to stand, pushing his hips up and in toward the gri-gri. This is when the failure happens. The belayer starts to break with his right hand and as his hips start to move back he regains control of the device. In fact I will even go so far as to suspect the gri-gri may lock even without a hand on the brake rope after about 2-3m as the belayer falls back down in his harness, not that you should ever let go of the break rope I am sure.
Wow! Had never considered this as a possibility. Thanks for sharing
Excellent demonstration/experiment. This is very interesting, thanks for testing. Your channel content is really good. Keep up the great work.
Thank you.
Thank you so much!
Wow I was just thinking of this scenario. Thanks!
I've been wondering this for ages, thank you for this video
Did you back up the climber on another rope? I know it's not super likely that you'd experience full rope failure but when testing strange error states, and sudden rope pinches on parts of gear or surfaces that maybe weren't meant to be loaded or act as a locking mechanism... Probably wouldn't hurt to throw an extra slack rope in there haha.
I concur
Great video, I was afraid of that situation, too.
Very important and informative as always. Thanks for all these videos. In this one specifically I was uneasy about having a real climber and such a skinny rope. Don’t you think that using a heavy bag would be safer? Well, I’m sure you guys know what you’re doing. Please keep up the good work!
Thanks for your sharing
ty for ur great videos
That was a really cool idea.
Sehr interesant. Danke!
For the ones thinking this is way too hypothetical, I've seen it almost happening once, climber was past the second bolt, the first one was kinda low and they took a fall which would mean decking if the Grigri had slipped a meter or so. The belayer was considerably lighter but still, falls with little rope in the system tend to raise the belayer easier.
250 lbs man climbing with my 140 lbs wife she used to always hit the bolt on even minor falls. Love my Ohm now! So much better for both of us.
It'd be interesting to see other belay devices tested like this. The Click-Up/Alpine-Up design is another assisted braking device, but with a very different mechanism of action from the GriGri. I wonder how it would fare.
Nice one. Would be really interesting to see what happens with other semi auto belaying devices. I could imagine the Wild Country Revo would unlock itself even easier.
I second this, really would be interested to see other assisted braking devices like the Revo in a test like this.
Good to know!
Awesome content. I wonder what would happen with the Mega Jul in the same situation.
This company needs to commission you to write a warning pamphlet for every grigri sold. Or consider a mandatory brake backup lol
Would be nice to see the others belying system problem too, if a click up would still have the same problem or not.
Actually it would be amazing a video about it both click up qnd alpine up, there's so little info and videos about them
Amazing video, it was a question since a long time for me ! well done
What do you think about the same experiment but with a smart or Jul?
Guess the different geometry may help.
These two don't have a mechanism "to unlock", so from quick glance I couldn't make them fail in this way, but maybe I'll check all belay devices at some point.
Interesting video, important to consider for us who often climb with lighter belayers! Thanks! Also, will we see any more videos in the belay masterclass in the near future? Can't wait for those videos!
Thanks, and yea, Belay Masterclass is about to continue ;)
Something like a edelrid ohm might also help in such a case where the weight difference is quite a lot.
Thanks for the video! what about other belay devices like BD pilot or Clickup? Do you think they would perform the same?
I’ve always wondered this! I’m also wondering this scenario: if the route was really overhung and after being pulled up the belayer couldn’t have their feet on the wall or basically have anything supporting them besides the grigri/rope, once they are pulled up to the first draw unlocking the grigri, and the climber starts falling again, would the belayer then start falling back to the ground too, thus releasing from the first draw and re-engaging the grigri? And then would the climber and the belayer stop moving?
Just from my few experiments I felt that I can stop the Climber from falling (GriGri Cam fail) if I hold the break side of the rope, but def more testing would be needed to be 100 perc sure.
If you can slowly unlock, you slowly slide to the ground, and climber stays at same place due to friction in the system. Not sure if in all situations, tho.
If I understand this situation described, the belayer position relative to a wall is often less relevant because you’d have to overcome the weight of the climber including friction. If in this position, the climber needs to boink up the rope, and anywhere the climber can reach the wall and especially the rope through the gear then need to haul themselves up.
This is coming for someone consistently belays someone 50 to 60 pounds heavier. I am assume your asking if the lighter belayer slowly get pulled up by the climber's weight after a fall and the belayer hasn't reached the clip? No, if you haven't reached the clip, you just dangle until you lower yourself or if the climber wants a haul, they lower you as they go up. Even if you do hit the clip, after the initial force, I've always been able to get the grigri to re-engage. Getting off the clip enough to pull back the handle and lower myself, now that a different story.
Good to know
Just like every Video: Great!
Do you have any experience with the Eddy ( edelrid)
Greetings
Marc
Amazing 🧐
Maybe I'm wrong but I think in real condition (which would already be quite hard to get into) your weight would pull you back down and the grigri would lock again?
Good example on why weight can be a important factor in belaying tho because at a 30kg+ difference you might just get jammed into the quickdraw for a good while...
Great video as usual, thanks for testing what we are not willing too!
Yea many ppl point that out... the only way to know is to do a bigger test fall with more back up....
@@HardIsEasy I'd be curious to see what happens in overhanging terrain (if the quickdraw is directly above you and you can't push yourself from the wall) then I'd be a real concern to have to system just unlock during the fall!
@@HardIsEasy Hi, Ben really glad you point this out, I always have the question in my mind.
My opinion with Lysonyk, the belayer should get lock again.
And, this could do with a few adjust,
Make the belayer really weight on the rope(not on feet or on the bolt)
-replace the PAS with a longer one(could do with runner)
So the belayer won’t weight on bolt.
-remove the feet when belayer gets pull.
So the belayer will really weight on rope.
Really glad you point this out again, I like those subjects.
Arming
Thank you for your videos! Could you please do a video about all the dangers of a smart 2.0 belay device? Since my friends and I are always using that, i am curious under which circumstances the smart would fail. Thank you very much and greatings from Switzerland
Yeap, have some ideas on that already, and greetings from super hot Spain atm :D
Great video!
A while ago I read you commented under some video saying that you would make another video on:
1) how to get the quickdraws back when you can't finish a route (you advised against using a quick link, as most people do)
2) when the belayer should and should not jump (dynamic fall vs falling on the ground).
I can't find those videos, if someone knows, could you send me the link?
I'm about to continue original Belay master class series that will have both videos you are asking for ... I'm just a one man band when it comes to production... slow ...
@@HardIsEasy Okay thank you! Of course, take your time, these videos are amazing! I was just wondering if they were out already or not (since I started following you recently I could have missed them)
Very good educational video. Only criticism I have of what you did during your test of getting sucked into the first bolt. When it did fail you and already stood into the bolt so the cam never actuated to begin with. If you were ever to be sucked to the first bolt the cam would be engaged.
I'm one of the light guys 5'8" 130lbs. Luckily I've never been into the first bolt so far so the video really intrigued me. My main belay partner for quite awhile was over 200lbs. So it was rather interesting.
Thanks and I didn't stand up... I was pulled up ;)
My legs were on the wall that's why it look like that ;)
@@HardIsEasy I must have been mistaken my apologizes. it appeared to me you had leaned into it. 🙃
@@Cinyman buaaah no worries at all ... I'm learning and getting a lot of ideas from comments ;)
Great video highlighting the real dangers the persieved sence of security devices like the GriGri brings about. The classic tubular ATC may still be the most balanced compromise ever seen the light of the day. And it's dirt cheap.
A "perceived sense of security" is only a problem if you treat it wrong. It's like people talking about "using a grigri makes you form bad and sloppy belay habits that are a problem if you go back to an ATC", you know how to fix it? Don't form bad habits! I still consider a grigri objectively safer than an ATC. Better? Not always. Safer or as safe? Yes.
GriGri is definitely a better "compromise" than a tubular device which has absolutely no failsafe.
@@eyescreamcake exactly lol, what happens when your tube device gets trapped in the first quickdraw and you take your hand off the brake?
Seen more people release the rope due to sudden movement of the rope through a tube device than have witnessed the grigri being smashed into the first draw. Further, seen plenty of people release the rope when pinched between the rope and a tube device, and seen a couple instances where someone slammed into the first draw and released a tube device. At the least a grigri may not disengage, and if a grigri does disengage then this is still a friction plate. Folks get super complacent with ATCs because they’ve not dropped anyone yet. Not a good compromise to lose all of the obvious safety from rock fall, underfoot hazards, and similar when you could just start with solid initial education which I see in most gyms and for most instruction.
@@zacharylaschober I do get and understand the pushback on my preference for an ATC over the GriGri. My position, though, is grounded in an episode of PTSD being triggered whenever I see a GriGri. Me - Leading a route on the edge of my ability trying to make friends with primal fear. Belayer with GriGri - Holding her iPhone with both hands filming the situation, probably with a hope to get to upload something spectacular on Facebook to get likes. Perhaps she'd done the same thing with an ATC, we'd never know...
Is the fall length limited as the belayer is initially pulled up then hits the quickdraw and the cam disengages but then they would fall back away since there is nothing holding them too the quickdraw after the cam is disengaged?
Interesting point, I only had 1-2m of extra slack and it all went through really quickly - didn't tested bigger falls tho...
@@HardIsEasy I feel like this is an important caveat. When you lower a climber after a catch, you get lowered first which I assume is due to less resistance. After that initial pull, which is shown in your 1-2m, the force into the rock / qd would reduce.
@@joffyjenkins9241 Seems like I have more things to test... :)
@@HardIsEasy secretly encouraging you to make some climbers take some long falls
Was thinking this too
Didnt you have more videos ? I miss them
Did you really do that without a backup strand like toprope or anything?
Yes don't try it ;)
I did some small tests first to see if I can control the break side of the Rope, not everything is in this video ;)
Thank you, I needed this. Will anonymously send to the owner of our gym who doesn't like when me and a heavy partner don't use first and second draw :)
I’m not that sure about your experiment, would like to see it with even Morse slam so you fall back in to the grigri before all the slack is gone and mby also with a light belayer that actually gos flying sort of seems like with only the right body position the grigri opens
Does the grigri+ solve this issue? Also thanks for posting these videos!
Happened to me. I (100 kg) was belayed by a friend (65 kg). And we tried to get over my fear of falling. The grigri (first one) got stuck inside the first quickdraw. I totally shat my pants when i found out 😅😅😅
I have it on video.
Hit me up if you want to see it. 🤙
He got pulled up hard...
No back up, just good belaying by my friend who saved me 😅
Yea send it to me pls to ben at hardiseasy.com
Or my instagram
@@HardIsEasy you got mail :) Greetings Nils!
@@HardIsEasy Perhaps the same thing happened to me (grigri 2). The grigri was in the carabiner such that it could not be unlocked. The carabiner was between the two halves of the grigri. If the climber was not able to climb up enough to lower me, I don't know how we would have got out of that situation. (Let me know if my description is unclear.)
Is it possible to redirect the rope with a carabiner to the hip of your harness, so that it always is going over the friction-edge? Then you would get the friction of the edge and the carabiner, so maybe a loose grip on the rope would always be enough?
Great video! Was this taken in Teneriffe by the way?
Yo Eden! No this was in mainland Spain, not Tenerife rock style here ;)
My wife and I love climbing. She weighs around 120 lbs, and I hit the scales at around 240. We made the mistake one day of her not being tied into the ground point while she was on belay for me to climb. I was nearly at the top when I fell. My weight quickly lifted her off the ground, and even though her first instinct was to stop being lifted by partially letting loose of the belay. I on the other hand, was careening at a dangerous speed towards the ground. To her credit she used the brake to arrest my fall just a few feet before I hit the pads. Then had the presence of mind to lower herself down safely with the same brake.
The Lesson to be learned here is, Belayers should ALWAYS TIE OFF in such a manner that they don't become one of the moving parts should they need to belay a falling climber. This RULE applies to ALL people belaying, regardless of relative size, location, or experience.
In your example, your brake would not have been fouled, if you were tied off in such a manner that you could not be pulled towards the wall in the first place.
I never thought about this exact scenario happening, but this is quite worrying. Especially, since my usual climbing partner is significantly heavier than me, wouldn't be a climbing day, if I don't get pulled up from the ground.
I'm really, really interested if and how Edelrid Ohm performs here, because if it would make this situation even a little bit better, I'm 100% buying it.
The ohm would definitely make this better, I use it with my belayer who is 30kg lighter than me, she doesn't get pulled up off the ground with the extra friction during falling that the ohm provides. Basically within the Ohms operating specs, there is little chance (don't want to say zero) of the belayer being pulled all the way up to it
Did you have a backup for the case of quickdraw or Grigri to break?
nice, can this happen with RIG also pls?
.....spooky ☠️
I worry about this on multipitch routes. Often we clip a draw on one of the anchor bolts, or there is another bolt very close, or the trad Jesus piece to prevent a factor 2 fall. Do you recommend unclipping this after the next bolt or piece is clipped? Thanks for the video.
Eddy from Edelrid and no more problems and Anti-panic included
As someone who is 80~ lbs heavier than my partner, this scenario has always concerned me. Thank you for actually doing the test and confirming my suspicion!
We are using the edelrid ohm for such a case where my partner is a lot lighter than I am. (~70kg vs ~50kg)
Don'snt any put projection lower down to stop the belayer being pulled upward anymore the way I did it years ago???. Just asking???
I wasn't aware that people believed that a grigri could be hands-free. I was always taught to have a hand on the brake rope.
That's why I teach light belayers not to use the first express in climbinggyms. I don't understand why the Eu-Norm makes the wall- builders to put them so low.
I thought the clip would push down on the cam.
But what if you hold on to the brake rope like you would on a DMM Mantis or similar device? Will the GriGri act enough as a tube device with its bends to still allow control?
Holding on the rope in our test seemed enough for grigri to lock even while pushing against the draw, but the test is limited so take that as a warning ;)
@@HardIsEasy Thanks.
I'll look at the Edelrid Ohm or its new competitor to see if they help reduce the risk.
Oups! When you think you are in safety situation. it's there that becomes to be dangerous
What's the best carabiner for grigri+?
To solve this issue, would it make sense for grigri to design the cam to go the other way? Downwards I mean.
Should have used a back up rope for this one incase the pinch between the first draw and grigri some how shredded the rope
Crazy crazy crazy crazy experiments with live human models)))) No one quickdraw was been damaged or corrupted
I like this new series "Will This Kill My Climber?"
Haha have more of that coming 😂
Maybe I should rename my playlist from "every climber needs to know" :)))
What happens if your partner gets trapped in the Quickdraw?
I Suggest you to use two ropes and two grigri when you do this. The rope and the grigri can brake
Please, make a video with russian subtitles!)))
Is it even safe to test this? Even if you have your hand on the brake rope
What about ATCs? Same problem probably?
Omg why would you test that up high!!!!
Seems like a good reason to not do jumping belay catches - among other reasons. If worried about swing, you can extend placements.
@D Hanes that's a lot of effort for a dynamic belay. In a multi pitch setting you can't jump anyway, so it's important to learn other techniques.
@D Hanes another option is to belay direct off the anchor with a munter hitch. The munter has shown significantly more braking power than the ATC, and it also has the advantage that it can catch either direction (such as in a factor 2 fall onto the anchor, where the ATC would be useless without a redirect). ruclips.net/video/1CbFpRPYDm0/видео.html
how extending placement will reduce the swing ?
@@miguelgazquez5717 i can't explain the physics, something about pendulum motion, but here's a simple test i did ruclips.net/video/jypZUENMVZM/видео.html
@D Hanes more food for thought ruclips.net/video/eqZQnCGl24A/видео.html
This is the exact reason my much lighter partner uses an Edelrid Jul for belay.
Grigri or grillon?
Llíber
I know what happens if your thumb gets pulled into the draw
maybe next time consider doing tests without climbers on the other end?
I actually disagree. It will only unlock for a fraction of a second. Once your body starts falling again it will lock.
Yeah, this is also my guess. In the video, it looks like the belayer is "helping" a little bit with his legs to maintain the unlock situation. Not intentionally, but still. Even if not, my guess is like the above. I am wondering how does it look in the 'really' real-life scenario - when the belayer is pulled or jump to the 1st quickdraw but after that goes down again. I was pulled to the 1st quickdraw a few times, so my partner and it has never happened that grigri didn't lock. But still - holding the break side is always a good thing. Appreciate the video, by the way, you are doing a great job!
I just won't buy one. I have seen so many issues / heard a lot of stories.
I'll stick with the Edelrid Jul2.
(also, very easy to teach a Jul2, just a development of the standard belay plate)
Gri-gri is French for "hot garbage".
All this science makes you gray-haired. Soon you will look like Gandalf. ;)
Thanks for a nice section.
Thanks for style advices for later stages :D I like it :D
If this happens to you. That’s your cue to quit climbing.
Doing tests a hundred meters off the ground doesn't seem very smart.
Looks very theoretical to me. I mean, a carabiner or even the grigri could also break due to crossloading, but i never heard of that incident outside the rope solo world.
If you catch a fall that big, there ist plenty of time to catch the rope, if you did the belay wrong before and also to loose it, if you are surprised by being smashed against the wall. It can happen more easily by an edge of rock in multipitch, if you clip the grigri direct to the anchor. But doing so with a grigri is still probably the best way to do in multipitch (if youre using single rope).
I've seen broken carabiners due to cross loading - but that's another story.
And I'm just curious if Quickdraw even can theoretically mess up with GriGri, the rest is situational as you noticed ;)
There are documented accidents of people decking because a grigri got jammed into a draw and the belayer dropped the brake strand, so it's not merely theoretical. Of course, there is no belay device that would be safer than a grigri for this kind of accident, because the belayer dropped the brake strand. But that's exactly what this video is about; don't drop the brake strand, regardless of what device you use.
@@dzb33 Would this happen on Smart or MegaJul as well when pulled up to the first bolt? I dont think they would open. Anyway they block less reliably with the brake hand open.
@@mailx581 The Jul or MegaJul will work fine. I really like the MegaJul, because with the right crarbiner and rope combination it nearly becomes a autoblocking device (needs minimal force on the break side of the rope)
Where the hell are you climbing where the first bolt is even within reach? Everywhere I've been the first bolt is no less than 8m up
why are you doing this with a real climber
Too theoretical. With the intentional jumping up and actually having to catch a climber it's hard to say exactly what would happen in real life. Need same test but with a 50kg belayer/100kg sandbag and no holding onto rope to get something approximating worst case scenario.
Les zee if ze man bun still unlocks ze uro trash girlsz vajeens