In the after show podcast, the show creators said that in a poll that was taken 50% of people without kids said Joel made a mistake, but 100% of people WITH kids said they'd have done the same thing that Joel did.
I don’t have children and I would’ve done what he did. I was horrified by the brutality but I wasn’t shocked that he did it. The Sam & Henry episode was the biggest clue to me; the lengths that love will drive you to.
The Normies reaction to this episode baffled me. Not only they didn't notice this, they also kept cheering while Joel went into "mass shooter mode". I guess that's what happens with such a big crowd, you don't get to stop and think about what you're watching properly.
@@looneyluna96 I stopped watching their reactions a while ago cause they were just making me mad. Yes, they never seem able to ACTUALLY pay attention to the show, and it's very annoying. And while I personally believe Joel did the right thing, and was behind him, I still wasn't cheering the further destruction of his soul! It's an awful situation, why would you cheer that? 🙄
So true, love is one one best things in life but it can easily be turned to hatred and fear. We try to protect the people we love and we can fear and hate the thing that could take them away from us❤
Love is counter-intuitive from a biological standpoint because it puts someone not genetically related to us in front of our own self-interests. That's what makes it unique and special when we find it, but it also makes us miserable when we lose it.
@@tmehtyrannosaurus Yep. And inaction is also a choice. Some people pretend that it absolves them of responsibility, but it's still a choice they made.
This entire season built up to and foreshadowed Joel’s final choice so beautifully, from Tess telling Joel to “save who you can save”, to Bill’s letter to Joel about ‘saving one special person’, to Henry’s guilt over damning the Kansas City rebels for the sake of his brother, to Joel’s fear of failing Ellie, to Joel insinuating that Ellie was the one who healed his wounds, not time. What an absolute masterclass in writing, I’m absolutely delighted that the creators managed to take this beautiful story that was so special to so many people, and adapt it for a whole new audience so perfectly ❤
@@noneyahbusyniss8206 Ashley Johnson, Ellies original VA, gave an amazing answer about the Okay. Must have been on the companion podcast for the series but the cliffnotes was that "Ellie has an amazing BS detector and that okay means you arent being truthful to me, I love you but our relationship is changed now"
@@kacektv9405 She did say that on the podcast for episode 9, but she has also said the same many years ago shortly after the release of the game when she was asked about it. I do like that Craig though on the podcast outlines many of the ways you can interpret that 'Okay' even though both Ashley and Neil are pretty clear on their ideas of what Ellie suspects.
@@kacektv9405 yep that was always my interpretation! kids see through their parents' lies all the time, but we pretend to believe them because we love and trust them. if they lied they lied for a reaosn right? as we grow up ofc we're less likely to accept the lies, which held true for Ellie. the lie was bigger than she imagined, sure, but she's not naive.
Yeah after I was done with the game I was like "Man I can't wait until next year when the new one comes out to see where this lie goes." Then my 20s were over and I finally got the continuation of the story.
@@looneyluna96 i mean she did voice that nurse in the first game too before she was cast as abby then she was dubbed over in part 2 and the part 1 remake
I would say Ellies reaction to Joel swearing it was true is like how a child will go along with a parent saying Santa is real even if they know its not true, its kind of a way to deal with it and not hurt anyones feelings.
I think the chance to say goodbye means a lot. I believe if Joel was given the chance to say goodbye something he didn't get with Sarah, Tess, or even Henry and Sam it would heal all those deep wounds. As a player of the game all those years ago, I'm glad to see non gamers get to have the same discussion we had then. Honestly I can't say I blame Joel, given all he has lost, but it always comes at a cost.
Me either. He made the only logical choice in his mind. But I think that if Ellie had been allowed to choose and talk to Joel about it he would’ve taken it better. Or at least respected her decision.
Ok…very long…Ellie’s sacrifice would not save the world. 1. Let’s be clear what we are talking about here. Marlene was wrong. There is no cure. There can never be a cure. When soft tissue, especially brain tissue, has broken down and been transformed like it has been depicted in this show w the infected there is no going back. Medicine is not magic. There is no Peter Parker Spider-Man shot that will make the infected normal again. The infected are all gone and the most merciful thing that can be done with them is for them to be put down. What Ellie could provide is a VACCINE. A potential vaccine for the un-infected. 2. But could she? The idea that a single person resistant to the fungus could provide a cure is a vast oversimplification of science. For example, we have had cancer for all of recorded human history. For virtually all that time, we have known certain people and groups are resistant to certain types of cancer. Yet we have no cancer vaccine. I find the idea that killing Ellie would certainly provide a viable vaccine to be hopelessly naive. 3. But even if a vaccine could be developed… THEN what? The ability to mass produce a vaccine safely and distribute it efficiently throughout the world is a feature of non-collapsed civilizations. It is certainly NOT a feature of the world of TLOU. There are no biomedical facilities to produce the vaccine in high numbers. There is no longer a transportation infrastructure to distribute the vaccine throughout the world. And as Episode 3 showed us, there is no local medical infrastructure to store the vaccine and distribute it to the population. There was no doctor or MRI for Frank, there is nobody to distribute Marlene’s vaccine that she cannot mass produce or transport anyway. So what you ate left with is a handful of medical specialists hand making a vaccine. How many are they going to be able to do? A few hundred a year? A few thousand? Not nearly enough to make a dent in the worlds remaining population in any reasonable timeframe. What it would do is serve to increase and enhance the power of the Fireflies, as they use the vaccine for leverage among the rich and powerful who can trade power and influence for one of the scarce injections. Now… is THAT worth Ellie’s life?
Anyone who loves their child can also understand why what Joel did was ultimately selfish and unforgivable- because at the end of the day, none of the parents watching this are Joel, and none of their children are Ellie, but rather, Ellie is the child Joel chose over everyone else’s children. So ultimately, Joel sacrifices the only known chance for every other child/person in the world to benefit from Ellie’s immunity (think of the ones we met who would’ve lived thanks to a potential cure, from Riley to Sam and even Ellie if she didn’t happen to be immune). It all stems from a place of unconditional love for his daughter, but that’s the tragedy of how “good” emotions can lead all of us to take part in “evil” behavior
There's also the argument that, outside of the people of Jackson, and various individuals, most of whom have moved from being victims of one demented or abusive controlling group to another, the story of the world kinda tells us that maybe it's not worth saving..
The stupidity of using the world isnt Worth saving arguments is that you’re forcing a child to live in that world. The whole argument falls apart unless you think Fedra is a better choice then the fireflies?
They did this well because essentially they backed Joel into a corner. If they had let him talk to ellie and heard her say it's her choice that might have been enough but in taking away any other options they signed their own death warrants. :-/ And Bella said that deep down Ellie knows bit she has forced herself to believe him because the other option is something she cant even let herself believe.
Not Only That The Fireflies Ambushed Joel & Ellie Right Outside Didn't Even Walk Up & Talk To Them, Also Marlene Didn't Even Talk To Them Beforehand I Know Time Is Of The Essence But I'm Just Sayin, Do People Even Talk To Others Anymore It's Always About Ambushing Someone, Marlene You Put Ellie In Joel's Hands, Like You Can't Be That Dumb To Think Joel Wouldn't Get Attached, Ya It Took Awhile To Get There But It Got There, Also Marlene You're Trash For Not Letting Joel Talk To Ellie First, Just Straight Up Trash, Marlene Put Joel In This Position & Now You Want Him To Just Walk Away Without Saying Goodbye, Girl No You Messed With The Wrong Person
The giraffe scene is one of my favorite moments in the whole game and I LOVE that they even used the same music from the game. I also like the little detail that the grasslands they are walking about in was once a baseball stadium.
I just love the poetical idea that Joel's decision was blatantly obvious from the start. The moment where he had PTSD, he chose to fight back this time, rather than stand like a deer in headlights... Bills letter, and how they live to protect... Joel brutally and mercilessly interrogating and killing David's scout party... Joel is blind by love, either the love he used to have, or the love he now has for Ellie. This story is just as much about how love blinds as it is just about love.
Not just love, either. Trauma, too. He's lost one daughter, and he will not allow himself to go through that again. In the very first episode, when he had the flashback to his daughter when being held up by the FEDRA guard, his immediate inclination was violence - he beat the guy to death for daring to remind him of that moment in his life. He's finally gotten a daughter back after twenty years of pain, he's energized by it, and it's unacceptable for him to contemplate having it taken back away from him.
thank u for taking a non-impulsive emotionally driven stance on all of this it's nice to know some people are able to step back and look at it from both the perspective of considering all humans at hand, as well as from the perspective that the writers gave us from day 1 - through joel and ellie's adventures
I've had the best time watching reactors (who haven't played the game) respond to this series as well as the Finale. Your response is exactly how I felt 10 years ago when the game ended. Great Reactions 👍 👍
In the game the infection is repeatedly referred to as Cordyceps Brain Infection (CBI) and the CBI Pandemic. When Marlene reveals they’re going to dissect her brain, there’s a sense of never thinking about it even though it may have been obvious.
Love this reaction. Man nearly 10 years on from this original iconic ending and I vividly remember my first experience of it. I do have to mention the fact that even the editing between Joel and Marlene against later in the car is just like the game and then those final moments on the hill with the same close up of Ellie, the same final "ok" and the same music and in both versions its so impactful
They used the same music for the giraffe scene they had in the game, and also the end credit music. And Joel just embracing being a dad again this episode was so wholesome.
18:00 no spoilers. In the most recent HBO TLoU podcast with Ashley Johnson, Troy Baker, Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann they talked about the ending and what Ellie was thinking. They all had different interpretations. They talked about how that is what makes the game and now show so great. Your reactions to the series have been great and I especially enjoy reactors that haven’t played the game. It’s entertaining watching a new audience fall in love with these characters and story. Now the wait for season two begins.
Ellie had a choice, Marlene took it away. Joel woke up when Ellie's choice was already gone. Ellie doesn't magically get her choice back because Joel wakes up and the only way for her to get her choice back is if the Fireflies let her wake up and give it back to her, but they wouldn't. They wouldn't let him near her either and immediately kicked him out while threatening to kill him if he doesn't leave and there's a good chance they would've killed him the second they were outside. Joel didn't take away her choice, it was already gone. Joel knows 100% that Ellie said she wanted to give the Fireflies samples to make the cure and then leave with Joel, that's what she's been saying for months up until this very same day. So on the debate on what Ellie would've wanted, you can either go by what Marlene or Joel *think* Ellie *maybe* wanted, or by the actual thing Ellie said she wanted. Joel chose to go with what Ellie told him. Even if she was given a choice, Ellie is suicidal at this moment, she acknowledged it herself. If the Fireflies and Joel were dead, there's a good chance she might've just killed herself regardless of a cure, there's really no way to get proper consent in days or weeks at this point. But they got there 5 seconds ago and they were already halfway through slicing her up, they didn't want to wait an appropriate amount of time just doing tests to make sure the 14 year old child was sure about her choice. If she said no, they would've killed her anyways, that's why they didn't bother to give her a choice, because to them there never was one. Also screw Marlene. Her not wanting to take baby Ellie means that if Anna didn't blackmail her with their entire lifetime of friendship, she would've left Ellie in that house to stave to death. Or shoot her. Anna knew to lie to Marlene about getting bit before giving birth, because she didn't trust her not to kill Ellie. And then instead of giving her to a family like Anna wanted, she dumped her at an orphanage run by the same fascists they are supposedly trying to overthrow. She basically went "A Nazi school is good enough, I guess." and went back to playing resistance fighter.
You can find many clues throughout the series relating to the morality of the choice Joel makes. Things like Bill’s letter, Henry doing a “bad guy thing” to save Sam, even Anna lying to Marlene about when the umbilical cord was cut to save baby Ellie
I just love the fact that they brought in 'Joel' and 'Ellie' from the game. Especially bringing Ashley Johnson to play Ellie's mother. I'm South African and I've been lucky enough to see Giraffes in the wild, also Elephants, it really is something to behold.
The people that Ellie mentioned in that last conversation all died because they were infected. Ellie wasn't expressing guilt. She was trying to explain why finding a cure mattered to her personally.
It's not just about infected deaths. Her cure could heal the world, not just by getting rid for the infection, but also by rebuilding society. She'd feel guilt even over deaths that were caused by other humans, because they're a byproduct of the world they're living in. It's a straight up identity crisis for her.
@@Dark__Thoughts No it couldn't. Even if you vaccinate everyone, which is impossible, millions of infected wouldn't go anywhere and they can still rip you apart. At this point you don't have enough hands and heads to rebuild the society.
Ellie knew and accepted her purpose which was to save not to be saved. Their talk at the giraffes encapsulated this. “There’s no halfway with this” “it can’t be for nothing.” Her appreciating his help to that point was her acceptance. Joel disregarded her because he couldn’t bear to lose again
"After this I'll follow you wherever you go" "Do you think it'll hurt?" (Game-only quote) Ellie was interested in providing the cure, yes. But it never crossed her mind (just like it didn't ours as viewers and players, for the most part) that the process would kill her. Her attempt to save Sam somewhat showed this. She probably expected to have to just donate blood and the doctors would then "doctor" it into a cure.
Doesn't matter why Joel did what he did, it still aligns with Ellie's best interest. You can't ask a traumatized 14 year old to consent to what is essentially assisted suicide. Of course she's going to say that's what she wants. She's messed up and thinks she owes this to everyone that died. Joel's job as her guardian in that moment is to get her away from that decision until she's older and in a better state of mind. But of course the Fireflies made sure that the only way to do that was with violence. It's just easier for people to call Joel a monster and completely disregard how morally bankrupt the Fireflies are because it is Joel who does the killing in the end.
as a non game watcher my reaction was similar when the 2 guys went to escort Joel out, kept saying out loud, "These guys are gonna die, everyone is gonna die , he will kill everyone" not out loud but more muttering under my breath as I was not reacting to it.
Whether it's possible or not Ellie might have agreed is academic; the Fireflies could have asked her and chose not to. The reason is obvious - they didn't care if she'd consent or not, and would have strapped her down to cut her brain out screaming if she hadn't. So Marlene wields it like weak moral sophistry.
Ellie : "Swear to me everything you said about fireflies it's true" Joel : "I swear" Ellie : "Ok" (The ending song) (Everyone reaction it's priceless) MASTERPIECE NOTHING MORE TO SAY
The Last of Us allows us to explore morality on a whole new level. In a post apocalyptic world, what constitutes good and evil is different. Morality is a sliding scale. The series allows us to explore what makes someone good or bad and how do we define it in this type of a world? If you have a good heart and want to save someone you love but kill people to do it, does that make you bad? Does it make you a good person who did a bad thing? All questions with no clear answer, which is why the story is so good. It allows us to question our own definitions of what defines good and bad. To answer your question about if Ellie knows: the best I can tell you right now is Ellie suspects he might be lying. You'll obviously have to play the games or if you just want to remain a TV viewer for future seasons to find out more! 😁
I found the recordings from the doctor around the hospital in the game. He stated that there were people like Ellie and that the trials for a vaccine didn’t take.
This isn't a spoiler for game 2, just a comparison with game 1, but regarding Ellie's mindset in this situation: in game 1, in the "swear to me" conversation, she has a line which didn't make it into the show, which imo should have been. When she says that first Riley, then Tess, then Sam died, she follows it up with: "I'm still waiting for my turn." She absolutely has tremendous survivor's guilt, but also has a sense of purpose in her immunity, and wants the suffering that she and so many others have been through to be worth it, and she sees herself as someone who can help bring that about. She's come to realize that her entire life has revolved around her immunity in one way or another, and she ultimately believes her destiny revolves around it. She probably would have wanted to go through with the operation, but both Joel and the Fireflies didn't allow her to make that choice.
I know Patreon probably told you already, but the actor playing Ellie's mom is Ashley Johnson, who was the voice of Ellie in the game, and part of the reason she ended up written as such a badass and not a passive escort objective. But you probably know her better as the creator, player, and voice of Pike Trickfoot.
Neil Druckmann told an interesting story in this episode's podcast from when they play-tested the game: One of the questions the test players were asked was "What did you think of Joel's choice?" For the players who were not parents, the answers were 50/50 between he was right/wrong. For the players who were parents, 100% sided with Joel.
Yeah, this story is very much about love and what it makes people do. Every episode is about love in different ways. Amazing stories, characters, and setting.
That's confusingly stated. Ashley Johnson, who played Anna, the pregnant woman at the start of the episode, also voiced and MoCapped Ellie in the game.
I think the best way to comment on this as someone who has played the game is how we were interpreting this ending when we beat the first game without playing the second, and yeah, it definitely felt like Ellie knew that Joel was holding back the truth but had no way of know what and how much was held back.
In the podcast the game creator said when they originally made the game and they had playtesters, they'd ask them what they thought of Joel's choice at the end. Among general people who didn't have kids, it was about 50/50 for/against. Amongst those who had kids, it was 100% agree with Joel. Every. Single. One of them. Thing about Joel's choice in the hospital though, we also have to keep in mind that there is NO guarantee that the 'cure' would work. The Fireflies are rushing, they're desperate. They need the cure for their OWN purposes. Maybe long ago they started with an honorable goal, but after 20 years of fighting they've lost their way, they're just another faction in the power plays. Really no better than Fedra who is also corrupted and fallen. Can you imagine what a weapon it would be in recruitment to have a cure? They'd finally have the power to take over, and would they be any better than Fedra? That's why they don't even let her wake up and make the choice for herself, the cure, if it's even possible, is not for the greater good, it's for THEIR good. Realistically, they should be researching Ellie slowly, carefully, keeping her alive at all costs and running ancillary experiments that would keep her alive and healthy because she's the ONLY ONE, she's the one irreplaceable element. But nope, they need a cure NOW, damn the cost or the risk. They established right in episodes 1 & 2 that there is no cure, no vaccine, it's not possible to make one. Now maybe there's a way to pass along her immunity, but if they do it this way, they have ONE shot to get it right. If they botch it, Ellie's dead, her immunity is destroyed, and that one in a billion chance is wasted by them being in a desperate hurry. Anyway, great reactions had a great time going through this journey with you! :D
She should have had a choice, but The Fireflies took that away from her, not Joel. One conversation could have fixed all of this. The fireflies could wait 20 years for the infection to destroy the world but not another 20 minutes to save the world? To save Ellie and Joel's souls? Troy Baker said it best: "The world took something from Joel so he took something back from the world"
Yeah, they've only had her for a few hours and already they've exhausted all options that don't involve killing her? That never sat right with me. I know in the second game they confirm that is what the characters are saying, but I think they're lying. I think the doctor was lying and he barely even considered other ways to do this.
@@coladict Considering they've never seen someone immune, they jumped past tests to 'kill' very fast. I also doubt the doctor was right - the dog didn't seem to think ellie was infected...
We shouldn’t pretend that Joel was some saint rescuing Ellie from evil people who weren’t giving her a choice. Joel had no interest in giving Ellie the choice either, that’s why he lied to her in the first place. He did what he did to keep his baby girl alive, that was the only reason he needed. It was a very selfish reason, and it’s not a bad thing to admit that Joel did a selfish thing by taking her from the Fireflies. Both sides were wrong in some ways and right in other ways, that’s what makes the ending so fascinating.
Marlene should’ve let Ellie wake up so she could’ve made the decision to give up her life in front of Joel. It’s possible Joel would’ve reacted the same violent way, but it’s also possible he would’ve made peace with Ellie’s decision.
Uh, you're half right, but not the important half. She should have woken Ellie and *given her the choice*. Then either let her convince Joel, or let them both leave. Any other course of action results in Joel justifiably taking Ellie and murdering his way out. Because whatever Marlene's reasons were, she was about to murder Ellie while telling herself it's what Ellie would do without even asking her because she's such a coward.
@@wcookivExactly. I think some people missed that Ellie said, "What drugs?" when she woke up, which tells me she had no clue of what the Fireflies were doing. So no Joel didn't give her the chance to pick, but neither did they.
Marlene was Ellie’s guardian from birth so she made the decision for her without consulting her because that’s what she’s used to. Ellie would have sacrificed herself because she didn’t want everything to be for nothing and I think Joel knows that. Joel was purely acting out of fear of losing a daughter again. He was acting out of egoic love, he needs Ellie, his life is hopeless without her, he lost Tess, he’s bitter at his brother for living a better life than him, he’s dwindling in health and Ellie gives him purpose. But he wasn’t thinking about Ellie when he massacred very important people, and the repercussions of killing the leader of the fireflies and the head Doctor is gonna be huge😅😅
Wow I loved that you tied Joel's scar story to his choice at the end. What a great connection I haven't seen from other reactors or reviewers before. It really does help us see into his mind a little deeper, and the real reasons he does things instead of speculation from personal biases. Great reaction and review!
Btw, Ellie’s mom in this show is Ashley Johnson! Ashley Johnson is the voice actor for Ellie in the game! That was soo cool to see! I love that they did that! 😃❤️👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
(I'll preface this comment by saying that I've never played the game) I think Ellie absolutely knew he was lying and that "okay" was her lying to herself because she didn't want to believe the one person she trusted most in this entire world could lie to her like that. it was easier for her to just "believe" him. now, I can't say whether I'd make the same decision as Joel or not but I do feel that Joel made the right decision for Joel. I recently rewatched episode 5 again and it's amazing how the Sam and Henry situation mirrors this choice perfectly. Henry was willing to risk the lives of so many other people just to save his little brother and that was the right decision for him. we all understood it and supported it. true, he never killed anyone directly but his actions got people killed and he knew that would happen when he made his choice. I keep playing Kathleen's words over again in my head after this final episode "do you think his life is worth everything?" that's the ultimate question of this series and the way it plays out in this last episode is just brilliant. anyway, I have no idea where next season is going and I'm doing my best to avoid spoilers, which is why I'm restricting myself to watching only reactors who've never played the game and select reactors who I know won't spoil because they are aware they have a mixed audience. thanks for another amazing reaction Jess! ❤
Joel is traumatized beyond comprehension to us. I can't even imagine what it would be like to go 20 years as a shell of yourself and then find someone who in some way brought you back. Lying to her was so wrong - but I understand his actions. Ellie would have done what's right - but the fireflies never even gave her a choice. She deserved better - to say goodbye at least. If Joel had only told her the truth. I think she would have found a way to understand what he did. He just wanted to save her. Pedro is so amazing in this episode. Without words you can see his struggle with all of his actions. He's coming from a place of desperation. Breaks my heart.
Ellie likely would have wanted to help, yes, but if these 'chemical messengers' are the key to a cure (never mind the likelihood that the type of resources required to replicate and multiply them no longer exist after 20 years--that hospital was dirty and barely lit even in the operating room), why was it necessary to jump immediately to harvesting Ellie's brain? Why not try isolating those messengers in her blood first? Or try a bone marrow biopsy? Spinal tap? Once Ellie is dead, there's a non-negotiable timer before those chemicals are no longer viable. If a cure was really possible, you'd think they'd want to try less invasive/deadly options first if they're really putting all their eggs in one basket, so to speak.
As much as Joel has been brutal with the killing of the fireflies, let's not forget that this man went on a "suicide mission"/journey, with a kid, for almost a year. Fireflies attacked them the second they spot them and knew who they were right away (or they would have killed them at sight). They put Ellie to sleep, didn't give them a chance to understand what would have happened to her cause she was just a mouse rat to them, not a person anymore, and couldn't take a no for an answer. They took all Joel's ammo, said "thank you very much" and sent him back on the road, with no guns and only Ellie's knife. All that time travelling to get there and that's how you repay him? I mean, they knew who Joel was, they had it coming.
Having never played the Game and barely heard about it I loved that ending figuring the conversion that would come after it. Like in just about every single movie the cure is always in the blood. Infact many times in this Series blood is the end-all for the future. To then have it be about her brain and her death is a serious wtf moment. The fact that they never told her to give her a choice but told Joel set his actions to come. Let's not forget in the beginning of Episodes 1 & 2 we were told a vaccine wouldn't work.... Great Episode and a Season 1.
I feel like if Marlene was honest with Ellie, then Ellie could have talked Joel down. That is, if Ellie wanted to do it. And if not, then it would have played out just like it did. By taking Ellie's choice away, Marlene damned the world
Great Great reaction. You follow tv really well and make great connections and explanations on your thoughts. Congrats to you on probably having a high eq
It's poetic that Ashley did and she did a damn good job. And Anna gave her three things, not two: the knife, the jacket and from what I heard Ashley wrote the note(that Anna wrote to Ellie) but kept it in the jacket.
I don't think it was selfish for Joel to break her out of the hospital and kill the Fireflies - he's a primal force and his daughter was about to be murdered. There was no decision for him to make, it was automatic. The most selfish act was Marlene's initial decision to murder Ellie without even telling or asking her about what would happen. You could argue Joel was selfish later on by lying about what happened, but that was at least born out of love.
Marlene trying to save humanity is also born out of love. The point of the ending is that literally everyone else was in the wrong, because they robbed Ellie of her choice.
@@Frostbite08 If the first step in claiming to save humanity is to lose your own humanity towards an individual by murdering them, then the whole plan was doomed from the start and it most certainly is not born out of love. Joel's rampage is sort of the embodiment of that.
As a researcher, there is next to no chance a cure could be made, even with unlimited resources available. Ellie would die for hope. Maybe that's what she would want, maybe not though. She can still have kids and have the possibility to give immunity to potential kids, which is honestly a much greater chance than what the doctor/surgeon can do. Joel did the selfish thing, but it was the right thing. Marlene definitely could have de-escalated the situation and handled it so much better.
Just like the game this is awesome, you can totally see it from both sides the scientists, one life to save the entire human race and Joel in the same position but determined not to lose his daughter again, you understand were their both coming from, that is great storytelling. Great stuff.
Not only do I agree with what Joel did but when I think about it and look inward I think I would do the same thing for my daughter. The only thing I would have done different is I wouldn’t have lied to her. She might have been really angry, possibly never forgive me but trust is incredibly fragile, takes a long time to build and only seconds to destroy.
the woman that played Ellie's mom is the woman that played Ellie in the game. That's kinda cool. Ellie playing Ellie's mom. lol. thanks for the reaction. hope the dog is ok
God you are the most perfect reactor. Not just because you are beautiful, but it's because you just freaking get it dude. Your whole thought process is exactly what we were all talking about when we first finished the game. Love it.
I’m not Joel. But as Marleen said. It’s not her choice nor is it Joel’s. But the fact of the matter is. Ellie was not asked. In the particular situation. I will not let Ellie die. She is the one with the “true gift”. And she was not asked if she wanted to do it or not. That being said. Ellie had the answer. It was truly Ellie’s decision and she literally didn’t have an an opportunity to say. To me. She was ripped away from Joel and said she’ll be fine. Joel knows with the brain surgery. Any parent is particularly terrified of an offspring going into surgery. I get why Joel wants to protect her. I also get that Marleen was trying to set “humanity” back on a path. But in reality. Marleen said “my doctor thinks”. She doesn’t know. She’s willing to kill her to find out and is purely relying on “faith” to make that happen. What Joel does know is that he now loves her as a daughter. He WILL NOT lose his daughter again. I’m in the camp of Joel. It draws down to two sides of a coin. Marleen chose one side. Joel chose the other. In a rare instance the coin could have landed and stood on the edge. Which was Ellie’s choice. It truly gets dicey when Joel lies to her. If he would of been honest. Things may have been better, question mark???? It’s just weird from here on out.
Very Fun Fact: Ellie's mother, Anne, is played by Ashley Johnson, who voiced and mocapped for Ellie in the game! Thus, Game Ellie gives birth to Show Ellie :')
I think that's a very reasonable interpretation of the end. Personally, I'm a 100% certain Ellie would've chosen to sacrifice herself.. had anyone bothered to wake her up and even ask her. As is the way of adults though, regardless of which "side" they're on, nobody did that. And, perhaps, there's some argument (again from either side) that "hey, she's only 14 so she's not old enough to make such decisions anyway", or "there are no laws anymore and no widespread structured government to enforce them, therefore there are no informed consent laws". But I think the ethic of the principle still matters, that: - waking her up and telling her, "This is what would be required" - giving her time - letting her make her own decision - letting Joel talk to her, and maybe she could've come to terms with such a decision and persuaded him too I think all of that mattered. I thought Marlene and the Fireflies became shitheads, and, if it were me, I woulda killed them all too. Because in Joel's place, he couldn't have given Ellie that decision (and he obviously wouldn't have himself). So it was on Marlene and the Fireflies to do that. They should have and were the only ones who could have. So I'm Team Joel. Or mostly. I wouldn't've lied to her about it, and I think that part was Joel being selfish (understandably, relatably, but still selfish). I would've pulled over, after getting far enough away, and told her, however difficult that woulda been.
I love how this moral quandary has been brought back up because of the show. It's hard to think what decision any of us would make here. You can definitely sympathize with Joel but his decision is absolutely selfish. But so was the Fireflies of you think about it. Ellie probably would have made the choice to sacrifice herself, but no one gave her the option. And that's almost exactly what happened in the game, right up to that last shot. Still one of the best endings ever. It's just fantastic. Fun fact, the actress who played Ellie's mom is Ashley Johnson. She played Ellie in the game, so her being Ellis mom brings it all full circle.
I think in the show and game Ellie was using her being immune and possibly the cure as a coping mechanism for all the trauma she went through. In her mind being able to cure humanity was a price for her trauma and she could live(or in this case die) with that. I think the reason why she was spaced out wasn't only the trauma. It was also the fact her journey was coming to an end and if they weren't able to come up with a cure then she would have gone through all that trauma for nothing.
Speaking for myself, I liked that the show foreshadowed Joel's choice many times. In episode 1, the soldier shot Joel and Sarah presumably because they might be infected. In Episode 2, the scientist in the opener recommended bombing all of Jakarta and everyone in it (i.e. ~10 million men, women and children) to stop or slow the spread of the infection, and that seemed to me like it was probably the best available choice (and then later in that episode Tess confiems that the U.S. military bombed cities just to buy time, and that in Boston it worked). Then, in Episode 3, we saw that FEDRA killed civilians that it couldn't place in the QZ to avoid them joining the ranks of the infected. Then Henry was willing to shoot Sam to save Ellie, though he couldn't live with that afterwards. If it had been Henry in Joe;'s place at the end, he might well have sacrified Ellie to help prevent future Sam's.
There’s no “right” answer…..it’s all about perspective. That’s what makes the game and the show so great. That being said, even if the Fireflies did successfully make a vaccine, it’s too late to save the world because there’s no global infrastructure anymore. The only people that would get the vaccine would be other Fireflies or they’d use it to get people to join them. They would never give it to FEDRA members or any citizens in the QZ who supported them. The vaccine would just be another tool to help them win their war.
Of course I won’t spoil anything but you’re spot on. Joel was always going to tear through that hospital and kill everyone to save ellie. Yes, she doesn’t believe him. Ashley Johnson has said this.
Here's why I'm with Joel on this one, all they had to do was ask her and let them say goodbye. That's it, but they were underhanded about it, and to me that means they're not sure if it'll work! Now maybe Joel would have honored her wishes but at least we hear her choice.
I think it's interesting to see different people's reactions through the lens of the time. In 2013 when the game came out, Joel's decision was much more controversial. Now, in a post-pandemic, politically contentious world, a lot more people seem to be Team Joel and his decision is a lot less controversial.
This proved to me that Naughty Dog does indeed need an easier "Easy Mode" for playing lol. I' was so mad, having played through the whole game, dying all the dang time, for that ending. It made me furious. In show form, however, I feel much more conflicted, with empathy for Joel's choice. Much more attached to the live action characters as well
i LIKE WATCHING YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR BLIND TAKE ON IT (sorry caps). Another reaction I like is a channel (Georgiadow) who is a therapist reacting and one thing she said that stood out was when Marlene told Joel that she does actually understand because she promised Ellie's Mother she would protect Ellie. She made a point that in fact, Marlene and Joel are not the same in the fact that Joel already lost someone so close to him in his daughter and that makes them very different as far as how they look at Ellie. Joel would have never survived if he let Ellie die....doesnt change that he honestly did the selfish thing....but it adds to really understanding why he did. As far as Marlene....she made a good point about what would Ellie want....BUT SHE DIDNT ASK ELLIE EITHER.....so its a big mess..... Imo, my heart goes to Joel but my mind says....Ellie needed to sacrifice herself for the better good. Its the whole one person /3 persons on a train track....pull the lever but someone has to die....Im pulling the one that kills one over the three.....its a crap situation but then you just have to lean on logic and the less of two evils so to speak...imo.
A RUclips channel, "The Deep Dive" did a live finale breakdown of episode 9. He posted a poll for his 532 viewers and 266 voted before the host left. The question was, 'Did Joel make the right choice?'. And 266 of 532 voted, the result was 80% YES and 20% NO. Why am I sharing this info? It all comes down to what each person (those who haven't played the game) and those who have thought was right and how they felt justifying their answer(s). But it seems the consensus is that Joel did the right thing. To me, Joel went into 'tunnel vision' mode when he did his killing spree. That's why you barely heard the gun shots and only the music. He was focused on getting to Ellie. Anyone who stood in his way was immediately taken out. With no care in the world.
there is a line in the game where Ellie says she is "still waiting her turn" when she mentioned that Riley was the first to die, and I really hate that they decide to cut it out. Ellie is smart and mature enough to understand what can happen to her to get this vaccine. She would have made the choice to sacrifice herself, and Joel knows this to be true. That why Marlene said that in her last moments. They both know what Ellie would have chosen. Another thing that hurts me is how Joel not only took her choice from her, but also diminished her immunity with his lie. He said that Ellie was not the only immune person in the world, and that the fireflies gave up in finding a cure. Ellie said that their journey can't be for nothing, but that's literally what Joel did in that moment. He turned it to nothing just so he can keep her with him. Not saying that I don't understand where he is coming from, but it just irks me that people keep saying that Joel did the right thing.
Ellie, is a child. If she's so mature; why didn't Marlene, give her a choice? Marlene, wanted what she wanted regardless of what Ellie, might decide. Children, don't have the maturity to give consent. I think Joel, was wrong to lie to her, but I don't think he was wrong to kill in order to save Ellie's, life. Even, if Ellie, might have chosen to sacrifice herself; again I say she is a child. I mean we would even allow adults time to weigh such a choice, or at least say goodbye.
It’s clear that Joel knows what Ellie would have done, which is part of why he lied to her, but hearing her say that is undeniable confirmation. So not only did they cut that line, but they cut Joel nervously rubbing his watch in response.
You are a breeze of fresh air in the reactors community. Thank you for being shocked at the level of violence that Joel unleashes to save Ellie. I swear, American audience especially seems to be so desensitized to gun violence, even cheering for it. This is supposed to be a disgusting display of violence in a selfish attempt to save his daughter replacement. It doesn't mean the Fireflies were not in the wrong either, none of them were in the right, this is the ultimate ethical dilemma. And no good deed goes unpunished: yes, Ellie knows he is lying, and she knows what Joel is capable of, maybe not entirely though, she has not experienced Joel going on a killing rampage, she has only heard of it. And yes, Ellie would have wanted to sacrifice herself to save humanity. Well, we will only have to wait for one year and a half I guess to see what unravels from his decision... Please, please, do your best not to be spoiled of the story of part 2...
as much as Joel has been brutal with the killing of the fireflies, let's not forget that this man went on an almost suicide mission/journey, with a kid, for almost a year. Fireflies attacked them the second they spot them and knew who they were right away (or they would have killed them at sight). They put Ellie to sleep, didn't give them a chance to understand what would have happened to her cause she was just a mouse rat at that point and they couldn't take a no for an answer. They took all Joel's ammo, said "thank you very much" and sent him back on the road, with no guns and only Ellie's knife. All that time travelling to get there and that's how you repay him? I mean, they knew who Joel was, they had it coming.
I don’t think you understand that the point of his journey is to regain his humanity through love and his reconnection to his role as a father and protector. This is the tragedy of his character and for him to do anything less than to fight for his baby girl would be a violation of his ultimate purpose. The firefly’s also never gave Ellie the choice. So fuck them too.
@@Vale9118 Yeah, Joel went too far but people should pretend the Fireflies weren't also crossing the moral line here, lying to Ellie and not only screwing Joel on his payment but *stealing* the stuff he needs to survive. I'd be willing to fight just because they still owe me a truck
I truly believed that Ellie knew that Joel was lying. I believed it after the game, I believe it now after the show. She’s too smart not to know. But she has so much respect and love for him that she knows he had a valid reason to. At least that’s what I believe.
There's an outtake from the mocap recording of the game's climax where Joel and Marlene's actors start singing all their lines. It's hilarious, definitely give it a watch! It's called The Last of Us "Alternate" Ending.
We knew from early on that Joel wouldn’t let Ellie die. But it was confirmed in this episode when he said she healed his wounds. He could never let someone like that go. Not after everything they’d been through. All those people telling him to save and protect. For him it’s no choice at all. I like what someone else said. There was no right choice. He just made the choice he could live with. Needless to say the whole situation was messed up. They should’ve been allowed to discuss it and gotten the info together. Or at least at the same time. But there’s one aspect of this I haven’t seen mentioned yet. From a purely scientific perspective there’s a very low chance the curre would’ve worked. Remember the episode? And if it hadn’t worked she would’ve died for nothing. And yes I know how his choice affects things down the line. One more thing. Pedro’s two protective dad personas officially merged this episode. His shooting spree in the hospital gave me very strong Din in Mando s1 or at the end of s2 vibes. I also like that we saw how Ellie got immune.
@Sesskasays, 16:52 would you have sacrificed Ellie? I couldn't have done it. Consent is important. Ellie was lied to back in Boston. Marlene made Ellie believe that she was going a doctor who wanted to draw blood and run tests--Marlene knew that what was needed was a lot more than that. She might not have known that Ellie was going to have to die, but she certainly knew that that was on the table. Worst still, Ellie was not free to go. She was Marlene's prisoner and Marlene made it clear from the beginning that she was going to let Ellie go because Ellie had a higher purpose to serve--Marlene had already decided Ellie's fate. I suppose as Anna's (Ellie's mother) chosen guardian, Marlene felt she had the right to do what she was doing, and she convinced Ellie to go across the country, by making her believe that she was going to do a simple procedure and save humanity. F' that! I don't support that one bit! Had Ellie known the truth from the beginning or had Marlene came clean at the end and told her the truth instead of lying to her yet again in order to get her in the operation room, I would have been on board with what she and the Fireflies wanted, but she didn't. She was afraid of hearing Ellie tell her no. Ellie's life isn't Marlene's to do with as she pleases, it's Ellie's! This is why I support Joel's actions. It doesn't matter that he did what he did because he loved Ellie like a daughter. Yes, that was part of it, but what pushed him over the edge was when he learned that Ellie was lied to! Joel wasn't happy about Ellie going into surgery, but surgery, at that moment, didn't mean that she was going to die. It wasn't until he learned what the doctor wanted to do--crack her skull open and split her brain in half to get to harvest the Cordyceps at the base of her brain--did his heart drop. There was no coming back from that, and this was going to happen without Ellie's consent! That's the issue! Marlene tries to convince Joel that Ellie wanted this procedure even though she didn't agree to it. BS! This whole journey started with a lie! Marlene made Ellie believe that she just needed to meet with their doctor and give some blood and participate in some tests. Marlene might not have known that Ellie was going to have to in fact die, but she definitely knew that Ellie's death was on the table. Had Marlene told Ellie the truth in Boston, Ellie would have told her to f' off, and Marlene knows it. Marlene had to convince Ellie to go with them to St. Mary's and she could only do that with a lie. The journey, unfortunately was a rough one, and Ellie lost some very important people along the way and those loses quickly added up and now Ellie is suffering from survivor's guilt. She feels like she owes everyone who lost their lives along the way with this possible cure--she wouldn't be here without their sacrifice. What a turn around! Ellie told Joel at the start of episode three that Tess' death wasn't on her. She reminded him that Tess died doing a job she was already going to do because they both needed a car battery, and Joel agreed. Fast forward to the end of the journey and now Ellie's is blaming herself for Tess, Sam and Henry's deaths too. Had Marlene told Ellie the truth, Ellie likely would have agreed to this procedure because of the state she was in. It wouldn't have been fair, but Marlene likely would have gotten her way. And had Joel heard Ellie say that she wanted to go through the procedure, he likely, albeit begrudgingly, would have accepted Ellie's wishes. If he wanted to kidnap Ellie he could have done it a long time ago. The like that was going to end her life against her knowledge is what pushed him over the edge. Marlene was wrong here. Joel was wrong to lie to Ellie, though I'd argue that it was necessary. Had he told Ellie the truth she would have started a new adventure, looking for other doctors that could potentially continue the process. Joel's like along with his actions, kills any ambition to seek out the Fireflies or any doctor with the knowhow to make a cure or vaccine. With that off the table, Ellie's survivor's guilt will disappear over time, allowing her to live a life, live a life she never got to have. Best of all, she'll be able to make an informed decision in the future about giving or life to science or not if she so chooses. She won't need to be lied to, and that's the way it should be. Yeah, she'll likely be pissed at Joel for what he's done, but he did what he did to protect her from a lie. Ellie's story reminds me of enslaved Black Americans and how doctors in the US sacrificed them to hone their skills and extend the lives of those who owned them. Horrible things were done to Black Americans to bring about modern day medicine. One man in particular James Marion Sims might have been the worse, he was prolific in his work of gynecology. Many died under his care and those that survived lived a life of horrible pain. Personally, I think Ellie's being made to be a modern day Henrietta Lacks. She too was lied to by doctors. They didn't tell her that her cells were unique, she had immortal cells, something scientist everywhere had been looking for. Her DNA was taken without her consent and given to doctors the world over who asked for them. Henrietta's story took place 70 years ago when the US was very segregated, meaning Henrietta could only go to hospitals that were designated for Black care, and you know she wasn't given the best care. Science didn't save her, but her immortal cells, He La cell line, continues to save millions around the world. The Polio vaccine, cancer, AIDS, radiation, and toxic treatments, as well as the human skin sensitivity to cosmetics, glue, tape, and more were all made possible because of Henrietta's stolen cells. There are more than 10,000 patents using Henrietta Lack's cells, and her family still hasn't been compensated. Ellie's a post apocalyptic Henrietta Lacks, and her genetically altered cells are the new He La. Ellie, like Henrietta, would've likely become a foot note in history, while the doctor working on her the cure would have gone down in history as the savior of the human race. The Fireflies would have succeed in overthrowing FEDRA and replacing world governments with themselves. The Fireflies are wolves in sheep skin, they aren't the heroes they describe themselves to be, and FEDRA aren't exactly the fascist we were told they are. Yes, they've done some bad things, but when you really look at this story, particularly the area of choice, you'll notice that FEDRA is the one offering all the choices while the Fireflies are the ones removing them. Taking away Ellie's ability to choose highlights this very issue. David's story, to me, was the entire story in a nutshell. David and his Silver Lake flock are Marlene and the Fireflies. They, through David, talked a good game and spoke as though they were for the people, which of course was a lie. They were doing what they were doing because they could and they enjoyed the power they had. David, like, Marlene was going to take from Ellie wanted he wanted from her, consent be damned. David tried to lure Ellie to his side with lies, and she she refuses he forces it and when that doesn't work, he's ready to kill her. Marlene didn't give Ellie the chance to refuse...and she was going to kill her to get what she wanted. Ellie killed David when she knew the truth. What would Ellie have done to Marlene had she known the truth? "When we are in need, he shall provide" isn't that different from "When you are lost in the darkness, look for the light."
Thanks for this reaction series! It would be awesome if you also reacted to the in-game cutscenes to see all the similarities and differences to the show.
“This is why we’re here; We are here to protect the person we love, and God help any motherfuckers that get in our way.”
I wish I could like this a thousand times, cause that line really does just sum it all up. ❤
That's Bill
@@coloradoyehti1538 Yes, but it was in the letter he left for Joel, and Joel obviously took it to heart.
And part 2 shows that Joel wasn't the only one who had loved ones.
Bill would have done exactly the same if it was Frank, indeed
In the after show podcast, the show creators said that in a poll that was taken 50% of people without kids said Joel made a mistake, but 100% of people WITH kids said they'd have done the same thing that Joel did.
I don’t have children and I would’ve done what he did. I was horrified by the brutality but I wasn’t shocked that he did it. The Sam & Henry episode was the biggest clue to me; the lengths that love will drive you to.
Really? I’m not surprised. I don’t have kids but I think he did. Though the whole situation was messed up.
So many reactors seem to not understand why Ellie was quiet and not very talkative, nice to see someone get it from the first shot she's in.
Gosh, how could you not understand after last episode's trauma?! 🙄
The Normies reaction to this episode baffled me. Not only they didn't notice this, they also kept cheering while Joel went into "mass shooter mode". I guess that's what happens with such a big crowd, you don't get to stop and think about what you're watching properly.
@@looneyluna96 I stopped watching their reactions a while ago cause they were just making me mad. Yes, they never seem able to ACTUALLY pay attention to the show, and it's very annoying. And while I personally believe Joel did the right thing, and was behind him, I still wasn't cheering the further destruction of his soul! It's an awful situation, why would you cheer that? 🙄
To be fair, they waited a week between the events of the last episode. Gamers got to see her acting off in just a few minutes..
@@ljbimoore I think the same. I wouldn't do anything different if I was in his place, but what he did is not something to celebrate.
Love is probably the most selfless thing that humans provide to each other, but it can also be the most selfish thing at the same time.
Pretty much the theme of this season
So true, love is one one best things in life but it can easily be turned to hatred and fear. We try to protect the people we love and we can fear and hate the thing that could take them away from us❤
Love is counter-intuitive from a biological standpoint because it puts someone not genetically related to us in front of our own self-interests. That's what makes it unique and special when we find it, but it also makes us miserable when we lose it.
I’m not sure what it says about me, but I’m completely on board with Joel’s decision.
Love is one of the most powerful forces on the planet. Sometimes people forget that power can be incredibly destructive.
“Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose.”
Exactly. 12 had it right.
@@tmehtyrannosaurus Yep. And inaction is also a choice. Some people pretend that it absolves them of responsibility, but it's still a choice they made.
Peter, my Doctor.
Twelve did something similar. He was willing to risk all of time and space to save Clara. So he knew where Joel was coming from.
This entire season built up to and foreshadowed Joel’s final choice so beautifully, from Tess telling Joel to “save who you can save”, to Bill’s letter to Joel about ‘saving one special person’, to Henry’s guilt over damning the Kansas City rebels for the sake of his brother, to Joel’s fear of failing Ellie, to Joel insinuating that Ellie was the one who healed his wounds, not time.
What an absolute masterclass in writing, I’m absolutely delighted that the creators managed to take this beautiful story that was so special to so many people, and adapt it for a whole new audience so perfectly ❤
I don’t think there was a right choice, but I do think Joel made the only choice he could live with.
That "okay," Just imagine that lil word being the real last bit of Ellie and Joel we got for 7 years! One word and it holds SO much weight to it.
that 'okay' ...means Ellie knows Joel is lying to her face. IMHO
@@noneyahbusyniss8206 Ashley Johnson, Ellies original VA, gave an amazing answer about the Okay. Must have been on the companion podcast for the series but the cliffnotes was that "Ellie has an amazing BS detector and that okay means you arent being truthful to me, I love you but our relationship is changed now"
@@kacektv9405 She did say that on the podcast for episode 9, but she has also said the same many years ago shortly after the release of the game when she was asked about it. I do like that Craig though on the podcast outlines many of the ways you can interpret that 'Okay' even though both Ashley and Neil are pretty clear on their ideas of what Ellie suspects.
@@kacektv9405 yep that was always my interpretation! kids see through their parents' lies all the time, but we pretend to believe them because we love and trust them. if they lied they lied for a reaosn right? as we grow up ofc we're less likely to accept the lies, which held true for Ellie. the lie was bigger than she imagined, sure, but she's not naive.
Yeah after I was done with the game I was like "Man I can't wait until next year when the new one comes out to see where this lie goes." Then my 20s were over and I finally got the continuation of the story.
It was such a nice touch from the show runners to cast Ashley Johnson who voiced Ellie in the games to play her Mum.
Hopefully they give Laura Bailey a similar role in season 2 in regards to Abby. I know she was in this episode, but she deserves more than that.
@@looneyluna96 Agree hopefully they give Laura Bailey a more substantial role in season 2.
Not just voice actors. They properly acted all the cutscenes through motion capture.
@@YouMe-ru6wi Maybe not quite "substantial", although they could extend that character, but the PS Vita Girl would be a good fit.
@@looneyluna96 i mean she did voice that nurse in the first game too before she was cast as abby then she was dubbed over in part 2 and the part 1 remake
I would say Ellies reaction to Joel swearing it was true is like how a child will go along with a parent saying Santa is real even if they know its not true, its kind of a way to deal with it and not hurt anyones feelings.
I think the chance to say goodbye means a lot. I believe if Joel was given the chance to say goodbye something he didn't get with Sarah, Tess, or even Henry and Sam it would heal all those deep wounds. As a player of the game all those years ago, I'm glad to see non gamers get to have the same discussion we had then. Honestly I can't say I blame Joel, given all he has lost, but it always comes at a cost.
A decade long discussion lol 😊
Me either. He made the only logical choice in his mind. But I think that if Ellie had been allowed to choose and talk to Joel about it he would’ve taken it better. Or at least respected her decision.
Anyone who loves their child can understand what Joel did. Ellie's sacrifice can save the world but to Joel there is no world without Ellie.
Ok…very long…Ellie’s sacrifice would not save the world.
1. Let’s be clear what we are talking about here. Marlene was wrong. There is no cure. There can never be a cure. When soft tissue, especially brain tissue, has broken down and been transformed like it has been depicted in this show w the infected there is no going back. Medicine is not magic. There is no Peter Parker Spider-Man shot that will make the infected normal again. The infected are all gone and the most merciful thing that can be done with them is for them to be put down. What Ellie could provide is a VACCINE. A potential vaccine for the un-infected.
2. But could she? The idea that a single person resistant to the fungus could provide a cure is a vast oversimplification of science. For example, we have had cancer for all of recorded human history. For virtually all that time, we have known certain people and groups are resistant to certain types of cancer. Yet we have no cancer vaccine. I find the idea that killing Ellie would certainly provide a viable vaccine to be hopelessly naive.
3. But even if a vaccine could be developed… THEN what? The ability to mass produce a vaccine safely and distribute it efficiently throughout the world is a feature of non-collapsed civilizations. It is certainly NOT a feature of the world of TLOU. There are no biomedical facilities to produce the vaccine in high numbers. There is no longer a transportation infrastructure to distribute the vaccine throughout the world. And as Episode 3 showed us, there is no local medical infrastructure to store the vaccine and distribute it to the population. There was no doctor or MRI for Frank, there is nobody to distribute Marlene’s vaccine that she cannot mass produce or transport anyway.
So what you ate left with is a handful of medical specialists hand making a vaccine. How many are they going to be able to do? A few hundred a year? A few thousand? Not nearly enough to make a dent in the worlds remaining population in any reasonable timeframe. What it would do is serve to increase and enhance the power of the Fireflies, as they use the vaccine for leverage among the rich and powerful who can trade power and influence for one of the scarce injections.
Now… is THAT worth Ellie’s life?
That's exactly what I keep saying to people!
Anyone who loves their child can also understand why what Joel did was ultimately selfish and unforgivable- because at the end of the day, none of the parents watching this are Joel, and none of their children are Ellie, but rather, Ellie is the child Joel chose over everyone else’s children.
So ultimately, Joel sacrifices the only known chance for every other child/person in the world to benefit from Ellie’s immunity (think of the ones we met who would’ve lived thanks to a potential cure, from Riley to Sam and even Ellie if she didn’t happen to be immune). It all stems from a place of unconditional love for his daughter, but that’s the tragedy of how “good” emotions can lead all of us to take part in “evil” behavior
There's also the argument that, outside of the people of Jackson, and various individuals, most of whom have moved from being victims of one demented or abusive controlling group to another, the story of the world kinda tells us that maybe it's not worth saving..
The stupidity of using the world isnt Worth saving arguments is that you’re forcing a child to live in that world. The whole argument falls apart unless you think Fedra is a better choice then the fireflies?
They did this well because essentially they backed Joel into a corner. If they had let him talk to ellie and heard her say it's her choice that might have been enough but in taking away any other options they signed their own death warrants. :-/ And Bella said that deep down Ellie knows bit she has forced herself to believe him because the other option is something she cant even let herself believe.
Not Only That The Fireflies Ambushed Joel & Ellie Right Outside Didn't Even Walk Up & Talk To Them, Also Marlene Didn't Even Talk To Them Beforehand I Know Time Is Of The Essence But I'm Just Sayin, Do People Even Talk To Others Anymore It's Always About Ambushing Someone, Marlene You Put Ellie In Joel's Hands, Like You Can't Be That Dumb To Think Joel Wouldn't Get Attached, Ya It Took Awhile To Get There But It Got There, Also Marlene You're Trash For Not Letting Joel Talk To Ellie First, Just Straight Up Trash, Marlene Put Joel In This Position & Now You Want Him To Just Walk Away Without Saying Goodbye, Girl No You Messed With The Wrong Person
The giraffe scene is one of my favorite moments in the whole game and I LOVE that they even used the same music from the game. I also like the little detail that the grasslands they are walking about in was once a baseball stadium.
I just love the poetical idea that Joel's decision was blatantly obvious from the start. The moment where he had PTSD, he chose to fight back this time, rather than stand like a deer in headlights... Bills letter, and how they live to protect... Joel brutally and mercilessly interrogating and killing David's scout party... Joel is blind by love, either the love he used to have, or the love he now has for Ellie. This story is just as much about how love blinds as it is just about love.
and his comments in ep 4 about how he fights for family only!! he has made his priorities incredibly clear all along
Not just love, either. Trauma, too. He's lost one daughter, and he will not allow himself to go through that again. In the very first episode, when he had the flashback to his daughter when being held up by the FEDRA guard, his immediate inclination was violence - he beat the guy to death for daring to remind him of that moment in his life. He's finally gotten a daughter back after twenty years of pain, he's energized by it, and it's unacceptable for him to contemplate having it taken back away from him.
It's not enough to save the human race. It has to be worthy of saving.
I read somewhere that this is a story about "the ugly side of unconditional love" and I think that sums it up pretty well.
It was said by the showrunners several times on the Inside Look that plays the end of the episodes.
thank u for taking a non-impulsive emotionally driven stance on all of this
it's nice to know some people are able to step back and look at it from both the perspective of considering all humans at hand, as well as from the perspective that the writers gave us from day 1 - through joel and ellie's adventures
I've had the best time watching reactors (who haven't played the game) respond to this series as well as the Finale. Your response is exactly how I felt 10 years ago when the game ended.
Great Reactions 👍 👍
indeed, with the same doubts about what was correct to do or not to do
Ironically the worst thing about getting into this series has been fans of the game acting like they’re the oracle or something.
@@joer3720 I'm going to count myself as NOT one of those individuals 🤣🤣I'm just happy that some people have enjoyed the ride 😊
Me too,
the changes didn't upset me either.
I absolutely loved this show.
In the game the infection is repeatedly referred to as Cordyceps Brain Infection (CBI) and the CBI Pandemic. When Marlene reveals they’re going to dissect her brain, there’s a sense of never thinking about it even though it may have been obvious.
Love this reaction. Man nearly 10 years on from this original iconic ending and I vividly remember my first experience of it. I do have to mention the fact that even the editing between Joel and Marlene against later in the car is just like the game and then those final moments on the hill with the same close up of Ellie, the same final "ok" and the same music and in both versions its so impactful
Yep at least this time with the show we aren't waiting 7 years to see what happens next. That was rough
They used the same music for the giraffe scene they had in the game, and also the end credit music.
And Joel just embracing being a dad again this episode was so wholesome.
Now we know why Joel can't hear out of his right ear.... he flinched.
18:00 no spoilers. In the most recent HBO TLoU podcast with Ashley Johnson, Troy Baker, Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann they talked about the ending and what Ellie was thinking. They all had different interpretations. They talked about how that is what makes the game and now show so great.
Your reactions to the series have been great and I especially enjoy reactors that haven’t played the game. It’s entertaining watching a new audience fall in love with these characters and story. Now the wait for season two begins.
Ellie had a choice, Marlene took it away. Joel woke up when Ellie's choice was already gone. Ellie doesn't magically get her choice back because Joel wakes up and the only way for her to get her choice back is if the Fireflies let her wake up and give it back to her, but they wouldn't. They wouldn't let him near her either and immediately kicked him out while threatening to kill him if he doesn't leave and there's a good chance they would've killed him the second they were outside. Joel didn't take away her choice, it was already gone.
Joel knows 100% that Ellie said she wanted to give the Fireflies samples to make the cure and then leave with Joel, that's what she's been saying for months up until this very same day. So on the debate on what Ellie would've wanted, you can either go by what Marlene or Joel *think* Ellie *maybe* wanted, or by the actual thing Ellie said she wanted. Joel chose to go with what Ellie told him.
Even if she was given a choice, Ellie is suicidal at this moment, she acknowledged it herself. If the Fireflies and Joel were dead, there's a good chance she might've just killed herself regardless of a cure, there's really no way to get proper consent in days or weeks at this point. But they got there 5 seconds ago and they were already halfway through slicing her up, they didn't want to wait an appropriate amount of time just doing tests to make sure the 14 year old child was sure about her choice. If she said no, they would've killed her anyways, that's why they didn't bother to give her a choice, because to them there never was one.
Also screw Marlene. Her not wanting to take baby Ellie means that if Anna didn't blackmail her with their entire lifetime of friendship, she would've left Ellie in that house to stave to death. Or shoot her. Anna knew to lie to Marlene about getting bit before giving birth, because she didn't trust her not to kill Ellie. And then instead of giving her to a family like Anna wanted, she dumped her at an orphanage run by the same fascists they are supposedly trying to overthrow. She basically went "A Nazi school is good enough, I guess." and went back to playing resistance fighter.
You can find many clues throughout the series relating to the morality of the choice Joel makes. Things like Bill’s letter, Henry doing a “bad guy thing” to save Sam, even Anna lying to Marlene about when the umbilical cord was cut to save baby Ellie
I just love the fact that they brought in 'Joel' and 'Ellie' from the game. Especially bringing Ashley Johnson to play Ellie's mother.
I'm South African and I've been lucky enough to see Giraffes in the wild, also Elephants, it really is something to behold.
And Tommy, and a nurse.
@@Dark__Thoughts i assume you mean you laura bailey, aka also abby's actor for part 2.
@@leilanyx Yes, but I wanted to keep the spoilers low.
The people that Ellie mentioned in that last conversation all died because they were infected. Ellie wasn't expressing guilt. She was trying to explain why finding a cure mattered to her personally.
It's not just about infected deaths. Her cure could heal the world, not just by getting rid for the infection, but also by rebuilding society. She'd feel guilt even over deaths that were caused by other humans, because they're a byproduct of the world they're living in. It's a straight up identity crisis for her.
@@Dark__Thoughts No it couldn't. Even if you vaccinate everyone, which is impossible, millions of infected wouldn't go anywhere and they can still rip you apart. At this point you don't have enough hands and heads to rebuild the society.
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p Found the antivaxxer, which after 2 years still does not understand how pandemics and infection rates work.
@@Dark__Thoughts Oh yeah, lets compare viral pandemic in modern world to 20-year old fungal pandemic in zombie-apocalypse...
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p Thanks for proving my point.
Ellie knew and accepted her purpose which was to save not to be saved. Their talk at the giraffes encapsulated this. “There’s no halfway with this” “it can’t be for nothing.”
Her appreciating his help to that point was her acceptance. Joel disregarded her because he couldn’t bear to lose again
"After this I'll follow you wherever you go"
"Do you think it'll hurt?" (Game-only quote)
Ellie was interested in providing the cure, yes. But it never crossed her mind (just like it didn't ours as viewers and players, for the most part) that the process would kill her.
Her attempt to save Sam somewhat showed this. She probably expected to have to just donate blood and the doctors would then "doctor" it into a cure.
Doesn't matter why Joel did what he did, it still aligns with Ellie's best interest. You can't ask a traumatized 14 year old to consent to what is essentially assisted suicide. Of course she's going to say that's what she wants. She's messed up and thinks she owes this to everyone that died. Joel's job as her guardian in that moment is to get her away from that decision until she's older and in a better state of mind. But of course the Fireflies made sure that the only way to do that was with violence. It's just easier for people to call Joel a monster and completely disregard how morally bankrupt the Fireflies are because it is Joel who does the killing in the end.
as a non game watcher my reaction was similar when the 2 guys went to escort Joel out, kept saying out loud, "These guys are gonna die, everyone is gonna die , he will kill everyone" not out loud but more muttering under my breath as I was not reacting to it.
Whether it's possible or not Ellie might have agreed is academic; the Fireflies could have asked her and chose not to. The reason is obvious - they didn't care if she'd consent or not, and would have strapped her down to cut her brain out screaming if she hadn't. So Marlene wields it like weak moral sophistry.
Joel's choice wasn't between saving Ellie or saving the world because right now, she is his world.
Ellie : "Swear to me everything you said about fireflies it's true"
Joel : "I swear"
Ellie : "Ok"
(The ending song)
(Everyone reaction it's priceless)
MASTERPIECE NOTHING MORE TO SAY
I'm so glad they put the same song to end the series like in the game (even if they used it already a couple of episodes back). Chills chills chills!
If i recall, the deeper theme of the last of us is love, both the good things that come from it and the dark things...
The Last of Us allows us to explore morality on a whole new level. In a post apocalyptic world, what constitutes good and evil is different. Morality is a sliding scale. The series allows us to explore what makes someone good or bad and how do we define it in this type of a world? If you have a good heart and want to save someone you love but kill people to do it, does that make you bad? Does it make you a good person who did a bad thing? All questions with no clear answer, which is why the story is so good. It allows us to question our own definitions of what defines good and bad. To answer your question about if Ellie knows: the best I can tell you right now is Ellie suspects he might be lying. You'll obviously have to play the games or if you just want to remain a TV viewer for future seasons to find out more! 😁
I found the recordings from the doctor around the hospital in the game. He stated that there were people like Ellie and that the trials for a vaccine didn’t take.
This isn't a spoiler for game 2, just a comparison with game 1, but regarding Ellie's mindset in this situation: in game 1, in the "swear to me" conversation, she has a line which didn't make it into the show, which imo should have been. When she says that first Riley, then Tess, then Sam died, she follows it up with: "I'm still waiting for my turn." She absolutely has tremendous survivor's guilt, but also has a sense of purpose in her immunity, and wants the suffering that she and so many others have been through to be worth it, and she sees herself as someone who can help bring that about. She's come to realize that her entire life has revolved around her immunity in one way or another, and she ultimately believes her destiny revolves around it. She probably would have wanted to go through with the operation, but both Joel and the Fireflies didn't allow her to make that choice.
If Ellie had said no the fireflies would have killed her anyway. Joel did right by saving her. Amazing series. Can't wait for season 2.
I know Patreon probably told you already, but the actor playing Ellie's mom is Ashley Johnson, who was the voice of Ellie in the game, and part of the reason she ended up written as such a badass and not a passive escort objective. But you probably know her better as the creator, player, and voice of Pike Trickfoot.
Neil Druckmann told an interesting story in this episode's podcast from when they play-tested the game: One of the questions the test players were asked was "What did you think of Joel's choice?" For the players who were not parents, the answers were 50/50 between he was right/wrong. For the players who were parents, 100% sided with Joel.
Yep - that's me. Parent and a hell yes to Joel's choice.
Yeah, this story is very much about love and what it makes people do. Every episode is about love in different ways. Amazing stories, characters, and setting.
(Non gamer here.) I too think Ellie knows Joel is lying and her "Okay" was something more like "Okay, you choose to lie to me."
Ellie of the game is the mother of Ellie of the show.
⁉️⁉️
That's confusingly stated. Ashley Johnson, who played Anna, the pregnant woman at the start of the episode, also voiced and MoCapped Ellie in the game.
I think the best way to comment on this as someone who has played the game is how we were interpreting this ending when we beat the first game without playing the second, and yeah, it definitely felt like Ellie knew that Joel was holding back the truth but had no way of know what and how much was held back.
In the podcast the game creator said when they originally made the game and they had playtesters, they'd ask them what they thought of Joel's choice at the end. Among general people who didn't have kids, it was about 50/50 for/against. Amongst those who had kids, it was 100% agree with Joel. Every. Single. One of them.
Thing about Joel's choice in the hospital though, we also have to keep in mind that there is NO guarantee that the 'cure' would work. The Fireflies are rushing, they're desperate. They need the cure for their OWN purposes. Maybe long ago they started with an honorable goal, but after 20 years of fighting they've lost their way, they're just another faction in the power plays. Really no better than Fedra who is also corrupted and fallen. Can you imagine what a weapon it would be in recruitment to have a cure? They'd finally have the power to take over, and would they be any better than Fedra? That's why they don't even let her wake up and make the choice for herself, the cure, if it's even possible, is not for the greater good, it's for THEIR good.
Realistically, they should be researching Ellie slowly, carefully, keeping her alive at all costs and running ancillary experiments that would keep her alive and healthy because she's the ONLY ONE, she's the one irreplaceable element. But nope, they need a cure NOW, damn the cost or the risk. They established right in episodes 1 & 2 that there is no cure, no vaccine, it's not possible to make one. Now maybe there's a way to pass along her immunity, but if they do it this way, they have ONE shot to get it right. If they botch it, Ellie's dead, her immunity is destroyed, and that one in a billion chance is wasted by them being in a desperate hurry.
Anyway, great reactions had a great time going through this journey with you! :D
She should have had a choice, but The Fireflies took that away from her, not Joel.
One conversation could have fixed all of this. The fireflies could wait 20 years for the infection to destroy the world but not another 20 minutes to save the world? To save Ellie and Joel's souls?
Troy Baker said it best: "The world took something from Joel so he took something back from the world"
Yeah, they've only had her for a few hours and already they've exhausted all options that don't involve killing her? That never sat right with me. I know in the second game they confirm that is what the characters are saying, but I think they're lying. I think the doctor was lying and he barely even considered other ways to do this.
@@coladict Considering they've never seen someone immune, they jumped past tests to 'kill' very fast. I also doubt the doctor was right - the dog didn't seem to think ellie was infected...
We shouldn’t pretend that Joel was some saint rescuing Ellie from evil people who weren’t giving her a choice. Joel had no interest in giving Ellie the choice either, that’s why he lied to her in the first place. He did what he did to keep his baby girl alive, that was the only reason he needed.
It was a very selfish reason, and it’s not a bad thing to admit that Joel did a selfish thing by taking her from the Fireflies. Both sides were wrong in some ways and right in other ways, that’s what makes the ending so fascinating.
@@coladict In the game they jumped to dissection shockingly quickly, but in the show I think that was the plan all along.
Neither gave her a choice because they both knew she’d agree.
Marlene should’ve let Ellie wake up so she could’ve made the decision to give up her life in front of Joel. It’s possible Joel would’ve reacted the same violent way, but it’s also possible he would’ve made peace with Ellie’s decision.
Uh, you're half right, but not the important half. She should have woken Ellie and *given her the choice*. Then either let her convince Joel, or let them both leave. Any other course of action results in Joel justifiably taking Ellie and murdering his way out. Because whatever Marlene's reasons were, she was about to murder Ellie while telling herself it's what Ellie would do without even asking her because she's such a coward.
@@wcookivExactly. I think some people missed that Ellie said, "What drugs?" when she woke up, which tells me she had no clue of what the Fireflies were doing. So no Joel didn't give her the chance to pick, but neither did they.
@@kristien2010 Also Marlene says that they didn't tell her so that she wouldn't be afraid, which is a very cowardly way of justifying it.
@@wcookiv Yep.
Marlene was Ellie’s guardian from birth so she made the decision for her without consulting her because that’s what she’s used to. Ellie would have sacrificed herself because she didn’t want everything to be for nothing and I think Joel knows that. Joel was purely acting out of fear of losing a daughter again. He was acting out of egoic love, he needs Ellie, his life is hopeless without her, he lost Tess, he’s bitter at his brother for living a better life than him, he’s dwindling in health and Ellie gives him purpose. But he wasn’t thinking about Ellie when he massacred very important people, and the repercussions of killing the leader of the fireflies and the head Doctor is gonna be huge😅😅
Wow I loved that you tied Joel's scar story to his choice at the end. What a great connection I haven't seen from other reactors or reviewers before. It really does help us see into his mind a little deeper, and the real reasons he does things instead of speculation from personal biases.
Great reaction and review!
Hope Rocco is OK! Thank you for this reaction series. It was an amazing series and enjoyed your takes on it.
Btw, Ellie’s mom in this show is Ashley Johnson! Ashley Johnson is the voice actor for Ellie in the game! That was soo cool to see! I love that they did that! 😃❤️👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
11:33 "Not like I'm that shocked"...
11:37 her eyes go as wide as dinner plates 😂
(I'll preface this comment by saying that I've never played the game) I think Ellie absolutely knew he was lying and that "okay" was her lying to herself because she didn't want to believe the one person she trusted most in this entire world could lie to her like that. it was easier for her to just "believe" him. now, I can't say whether I'd make the same decision as Joel or not but I do feel that Joel made the right decision for Joel. I recently rewatched episode 5 again and it's amazing how the Sam and Henry situation mirrors this choice perfectly. Henry was willing to risk the lives of so many other people just to save his little brother and that was the right decision for him. we all understood it and supported it. true, he never killed anyone directly but his actions got people killed and he knew that would happen when he made his choice. I keep playing Kathleen's words over again in my head after this final episode "do you think his life is worth everything?" that's the ultimate question of this series and the way it plays out in this last episode is just brilliant. anyway, I have no idea where next season is going and I'm doing my best to avoid spoilers, which is why I'm restricting myself to watching only reactors who've never played the game and select reactors who I know won't spoil because they are aware they have a mixed audience. thanks for another amazing reaction Jess! ❤
Joel is traumatized beyond comprehension to us. I can't even imagine what it would be like to go 20 years as a shell of yourself and then find someone who in some way brought you back. Lying to her was so wrong - but I understand his actions.
Ellie would have done what's right - but the fireflies never even gave her a choice. She deserved better - to say goodbye at least. If Joel had only told her the truth. I think she would have found a way to understand what he did. He just wanted to save her.
Pedro is so amazing in this episode. Without words you can see his struggle with all of his actions. He's coming from a place of desperation. Breaks my heart.
Ellie likely would have wanted to help, yes, but if these 'chemical messengers' are the key to a cure (never mind the likelihood that the type of resources required to replicate and multiply them no longer exist after 20 years--that hospital was dirty and barely lit even in the operating room), why was it necessary to jump immediately to harvesting Ellie's brain? Why not try isolating those messengers in her blood first? Or try a bone marrow biopsy? Spinal tap? Once Ellie is dead, there's a non-negotiable timer before those chemicals are no longer viable. If a cure was really possible, you'd think they'd want to try less invasive/deadly options first if they're really putting all their eggs in one basket, so to speak.
Joel: "Take me to Ellie."
Marlene: "I can't do that."
Joel: "So you have chosen death."
As much as Joel has been brutal with the killing of the fireflies, let's not forget that this man went on a "suicide mission"/journey, with a kid, for almost a year. Fireflies attacked them the second they spot them and knew who they were right away (or they would have killed them at sight). They put Ellie to sleep, didn't give them a chance to understand what would have happened to her cause she was just a mouse rat to them, not a person anymore, and couldn't take a no for an answer. They took all Joel's ammo, said "thank you very much" and sent him back on the road, with no guns and only Ellie's knife. All that time travelling to get there and that's how you repay him? I mean, they knew who Joel was, they had it coming.
Having never played the Game and barely heard about it I loved that ending figuring the conversion that would come after it.
Like in just about every single movie the cure is always in the blood.
Infact many times in this Series blood is the end-all for the future.
To then have it be about her brain and her death is a serious wtf moment.
The fact that they never told her to give her a choice but told Joel set his actions to come.
Let's not forget in the beginning of Episodes 1 & 2 we were told a vaccine wouldn't work....
Great Episode and a Season 1.
I feel like if Marlene was honest with Ellie, then Ellie could have talked Joel down. That is, if Ellie wanted to do it. And if not, then it would have played out just like it did. By taking Ellie's choice away, Marlene damned the world
im so glad i met you with this show! cant wait to see some other things and season two along with you ❤❤❤❤
Great Great reaction. You follow tv really well and make great connections and explanations on your thoughts. Congrats to you on probably having a high eq
Episode 6 Joel said "thats all I do, is fail". From his perspective he cant fail again. He is a broken man.
ellie's mother at the start is played by Ashley Johnson, the same actress who played Ellie in the game's.
It's poetic that Ashley did and she did a damn good job. And Anna gave her three things, not two: the knife, the jacket and from what I heard Ashley wrote the note(that Anna wrote to Ellie) but kept it in the jacket.
I don't think it was selfish for Joel to break her out of the hospital and kill the Fireflies - he's a primal force and his daughter was about to be murdered. There was no decision for him to make, it was automatic. The most selfish act was Marlene's initial decision to murder Ellie without even telling or asking her about what would happen.
You could argue Joel was selfish later on by lying about what happened, but that was at least born out of love.
Marlene trying to save humanity is also born out of love. The point of the ending is that literally everyone else was in the wrong, because they robbed Ellie of her choice.
@@Frostbite08 If the first step in claiming to save humanity is to lose your own humanity towards an individual by murdering them, then the whole plan was doomed from the start and it most certainly is not born out of love. Joel's rampage is sort of the embodiment of that.
@@MrPicklerwoof Did you miss the part where I said literally everyone other than Ellie was in the wrong?
@@Frostbite08 Nope. I was responding to your point saying Marlene's actions were born out of love. I disagree with that.
@@MrPicklerwoof She's trying to save the world. What would you call that, if not love?
"It wasn't the airplanes - it was beauty killed the beast."
As a researcher, there is next to no chance a cure could be made, even with unlimited resources available. Ellie would die for hope. Maybe that's what she would want, maybe not though.
She can still have kids and have the possibility to give immunity to potential kids, which is honestly a much greater chance than what the doctor/surgeon can do.
Joel did the selfish thing, but it was the right thing. Marlene definitely could have de-escalated the situation and handled it so much better.
Just like the game this is awesome, you can totally see it from both sides the scientists, one life to save the entire human race and Joel in the same position but determined not to lose his daughter again, you understand were their both coming from, that is great storytelling. Great stuff.
Not only do I agree with what Joel did but when I think about it and look inward I think I would do the same thing for my daughter. The only thing I would have done different is I wouldn’t have lied to her. She might have been really angry, possibly never forgive me but trust is incredibly fragile, takes a long time to build and only seconds to destroy.
Joel and Ellie arrive at the Firefly's base but learn that they have to make one last sacrifice.
Deep down Ellie probably knows. It's just that she didn't want to believe that the person she loves, and trusts the most would lie to her.
the woman that played Ellie's mom is the woman that played Ellie in the game. That's kinda cool. Ellie playing Ellie's mom. lol. thanks for the reaction. hope the dog is ok
God you are the most perfect reactor. Not just because you are beautiful, but it's because you just freaking get it dude. Your whole thought process is exactly what we were all talking about when we first finished the game. Love it.
Great reaction and excellent analysis. I love that your analysis of what happened was smart, fair and really introspective.
I’m not Joel. But as Marleen said. It’s not her choice nor is it Joel’s. But the fact of the matter is. Ellie was not asked. In the particular situation. I will not let Ellie die. She is the one with the “true gift”. And she was not asked if she wanted to do it or not.
That being said. Ellie had the answer. It was truly Ellie’s decision and she literally didn’t have an an opportunity to say.
To me. She was ripped away from Joel and said she’ll be fine. Joel knows with the brain surgery. Any parent is particularly terrified of an offspring going into surgery. I get why Joel wants to protect her. I also get that Marleen was trying to set “humanity” back on a path. But in reality. Marleen said “my doctor thinks”. She doesn’t know. She’s willing to kill her to find out and is purely relying on “faith” to make that happen. What Joel does know is that he now loves her as a daughter. He WILL NOT lose his daughter again.
I’m in the camp of Joel.
It draws down to two sides of a coin. Marleen chose one side. Joel chose the other. In a rare instance the coin could have landed and stood on the edge. Which was Ellie’s choice.
It truly gets dicey when Joel lies to her. If he would of been honest. Things may have been better, question mark???? It’s just weird from here on out.
Very Fun Fact: Ellie's mother, Anne, is played by Ashley Johnson, who voiced and mocapped for Ellie in the game! Thus, Game Ellie gives birth to Show Ellie :')
I hope Rocco is doing okay!
First video I saw opening RUclips so I’m a happy camper
I think that's a very reasonable interpretation of the end.
Personally, I'm a 100% certain Ellie would've chosen to sacrifice herself.. had anyone bothered to wake her up and even ask her. As is the way of adults though, regardless of which "side" they're on, nobody did that. And, perhaps, there's some argument (again from either side) that "hey, she's only 14 so she's not old enough to make such decisions anyway", or "there are no laws anymore and no widespread structured government to enforce them, therefore there are no informed consent laws".
But I think the ethic of the principle still matters, that:
- waking her up and telling her, "This is what would be required"
- giving her time
- letting her make her own decision
- letting Joel talk to her, and maybe she could've come to terms with such a decision and persuaded him too
I think all of that mattered.
I thought Marlene and the Fireflies became shitheads, and, if it were me, I woulda killed them all too. Because in Joel's place, he couldn't have given Ellie that decision (and he obviously wouldn't have himself). So it was on Marlene and the Fireflies to do that. They should have and were the only ones who could have.
So I'm Team Joel. Or mostly. I wouldn't've lied to her about it, and I think that part was Joel being selfish (understandably, relatably, but still selfish). I would've pulled over, after getting far enough away, and told her, however difficult that woulda been.
Ellie’s Mother in the Series was Ellie in the Game
I love how this moral quandary has been brought back up because of the show. It's hard to think what decision any of us would make here. You can definitely sympathize with Joel but his decision is absolutely selfish. But so was the Fireflies of you think about it. Ellie probably would have made the choice to sacrifice herself, but no one gave her the option. And that's almost exactly what happened in the game, right up to that last shot. Still one of the best endings ever. It's just fantastic. Fun fact, the actress who played Ellie's mom is Ashley Johnson. She played Ellie in the game, so her being Ellis mom brings it all full circle.
I think in the show and game Ellie was using her being immune and possibly the cure as a coping mechanism for all the trauma she went through. In her mind being able to cure humanity was a price for her trauma and she could live(or in this case die) with that. I think the reason why she was spaced out wasn't only the trauma. It was also the fact her journey was coming to an end and if they weren't able to come up with a cure then she would have gone through all that trauma for nothing.
Thank you so much for all of your reactions on this series. I have truly enjoyed all of them. 😊
Speaking for myself, I liked that the show foreshadowed Joel's choice many times. In episode 1, the soldier shot Joel and Sarah presumably because they might be infected. In Episode 2, the scientist in the opener recommended bombing all of Jakarta and everyone in it (i.e. ~10 million men, women and children) to stop or slow the spread of the infection, and that seemed to me like it was probably the best available choice (and then later in that episode Tess confiems that the U.S. military bombed cities just to buy time, and that in Boston it worked). Then, in Episode 3, we saw that FEDRA killed civilians that it couldn't place in the QZ to avoid them joining the ranks of the infected. Then Henry was willing to shoot Sam to save Ellie, though he couldn't live with that afterwards. If it had been Henry in Joe;'s place at the end, he might well have sacrified Ellie to help prevent future Sam's.
The doc grabbing a scapal against JOEL’s gun!!! 😂
I didn’t think Ellie would die from this either. I thought they would just need blood.
I hope your dog is better.
The cordyceps fungus latches to the brain and takes over. To remove the fungus would be to kill the host.
@@lunaticfringe2763 yes. Thanks for explaining what they explained in the show Not the point of my post
Jess’ guttural scream when Joel shot the doctor……..will Reverberate for years to come. I
And seasons to come!
😈
There’s no “right” answer…..it’s all about perspective. That’s what makes the game and the show so great.
That being said, even if the Fireflies did successfully make a vaccine, it’s too late to save the world because there’s no global infrastructure anymore. The only people that would get the vaccine would be other Fireflies or they’d use it to get people to join them. They would never give it to FEDRA members or any citizens in the QZ who supported them. The vaccine would just be another tool to help them win their war.
Of course I won’t spoil anything but you’re spot on. Joel was always going to tear through that hospital and kill everyone to save ellie. Yes, she doesn’t believe him. Ashley Johnson has said this.
Here's why I'm with Joel on this one,
all they had to do was ask her and
let them say goodbye. That's it,
but they were underhanded about
it, and to me that means they're not
sure if it'll work! Now maybe Joel
would have honored her wishes but
at least we hear her choice.
I think it's interesting to see different people's reactions through the lens of the time. In 2013 when the game came out, Joel's decision was much more controversial. Now, in a post-pandemic, politically contentious world, a lot more people seem to be Team Joel and his decision is a lot less controversial.
Came across your channel during “The Haunting of Bly Manor.” 😅 it’s been a minute.
This proved to me that Naughty Dog does indeed need an easier "Easy Mode" for playing lol. I' was so mad, having played through the whole game, dying all the dang time, for that ending. It made me furious. In show form, however, I feel much more conflicted, with empathy for Joel's choice. Much more attached to the live action characters as well
i LIKE WATCHING YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR BLIND TAKE ON IT (sorry caps).
Another reaction I like is a channel (Georgiadow) who is a therapist reacting and one thing she said that stood out was when Marlene told Joel that she does actually understand because she promised Ellie's Mother she would protect Ellie.
She made a point that in fact, Marlene and Joel are not the same in the fact that Joel already lost someone so close to him in his daughter and that makes them very different as far as how they look at Ellie.
Joel would have never survived if he let Ellie die....doesnt change that he honestly did the selfish thing....but it adds to really understanding why he did.
As far as Marlene....she made a good point about what would Ellie want....BUT SHE DIDNT ASK ELLIE EITHER.....so its a big mess.....
Imo, my heart goes to Joel but my mind says....Ellie needed to sacrifice herself for the better good.
Its the whole one person /3 persons on a train track....pull the lever but someone has to die....Im pulling the one that kills one over the three.....its a crap situation but then you just have to lean on logic and the less of two evils so to speak...imo.
A RUclips channel, "The Deep Dive" did a live finale breakdown of episode 9. He posted a poll for his 532 viewers and 266 voted before the host left. The question was, 'Did Joel make the right choice?'. And 266 of 532 voted, the result was 80% YES and 20% NO. Why am I sharing this info? It all comes down to what each person (those who haven't played the game) and those who have thought was right and how they felt justifying their answer(s). But it seems the consensus is that Joel did the right thing.
To me, Joel went into 'tunnel vision' mode when he did his killing spree. That's why you barely heard the gun shots and only the music. He was focused on getting to Ellie. Anyone who stood in his way was immediately taken out. With no care in the world.
Those people confused "the right thing" with "I empathize and would do the same".
@@MRocky323 yep. In Joel's shoes I'd have prolly done the same thing for my kin. Doesn't make it the "right" thing necessarily
there is a line in the game where Ellie says she is "still waiting her turn" when she mentioned that Riley was the first to die, and I really hate that they decide to cut it out. Ellie is smart and mature enough to understand what can happen to her to get this vaccine. She would have made the choice to sacrifice herself, and Joel knows this to be true. That why Marlene said that in her last moments. They both know what Ellie would have chosen.
Another thing that hurts me is how Joel not only took her choice from her, but also diminished her immunity with his lie. He said that Ellie was not the only immune person in the world, and that the fireflies gave up in finding a cure. Ellie said that their journey can't be for nothing, but that's literally what Joel did in that moment. He turned it to nothing just so he can keep her with him.
Not saying that I don't understand where he is coming from, but it just irks me that people keep saying that Joel did the right thing.
Ellie, is a child. If she's so mature; why didn't Marlene, give her a choice? Marlene, wanted what she wanted regardless of what Ellie, might decide. Children, don't have the maturity to give consent. I think Joel, was wrong to lie to her, but I don't think he was wrong to kill in order to save Ellie's, life. Even, if Ellie, might have chosen to sacrifice herself; again I say she is a child. I mean we would even allow adults time to weigh such a choice, or at least say goodbye.
It’s clear that Joel knows what Ellie would have done, which is part of why he lied to her, but hearing her say that is undeniable confirmation. So not only did they cut that line, but they cut Joel nervously rubbing his watch in response.
You are a breeze of fresh air in the reactors community. Thank you for being shocked at the level of violence that Joel unleashes to save Ellie. I swear, American audience especially seems to be so desensitized to gun violence, even cheering for it. This is supposed to be a disgusting display of violence in a selfish attempt to save his daughter replacement. It doesn't mean the Fireflies were not in the wrong either, none of them were in the right, this is the ultimate ethical dilemma. And no good deed goes unpunished: yes, Ellie knows he is lying, and she knows what Joel is capable of, maybe not entirely though, she has not experienced Joel going on a killing rampage, she has only heard of it. And yes, Ellie would have wanted to sacrifice herself to save humanity. Well, we will only have to wait for one year and a half I guess to see what unravels from his decision... Please, please, do your best not to be spoiled of the story of part 2...
as much as Joel has been brutal with the killing of the fireflies, let's not forget that this man went on an almost suicide mission/journey, with a kid, for almost a year. Fireflies attacked them the second they spot them and knew who they were right away (or they would have killed them at sight). They put Ellie to sleep, didn't give them a chance to understand what would have happened to her cause she was just a mouse rat at that point and they couldn't take a no for an answer. They took all Joel's ammo, said "thank you very much" and sent him back on the road, with no guns and only Ellie's knife. All that time travelling to get there and that's how you repay him? I mean, they knew who Joel was, they had it coming.
I don’t think you understand that the point of his journey is to regain his humanity through love and his reconnection to his role as a father and protector. This is the tragedy of his character and for him to do anything less than to fight for his baby girl would be a violation of his ultimate purpose. The firefly’s also never gave Ellie the choice. So fuck them too.
Selfish? No.
@@Vale9118 Yeah, Joel went too far but people should pretend the Fireflies weren't also crossing the moral line here, lying to Ellie and not only screwing Joel on his payment but *stealing* the stuff he needs to survive. I'd be willing to fight just because they still owe me a truck
I truly believed that Ellie knew that Joel was lying. I believed it after the game, I believe it now after the show. She’s too smart not to know. But she has so much respect and love for him that she knows he had a valid reason to. At least that’s what I believe.
There's an outtake from the mocap recording of the game's climax where Joel and Marlene's actors start singing all their lines. It's hilarious, definitely give it a watch! It's called The Last of Us "Alternate" Ending.
We knew from early on that Joel wouldn’t let Ellie die. But it was confirmed in this episode when he said she healed his wounds. He could never let someone like that go. Not after everything they’d been through. All those people telling him to save and protect. For him it’s no choice at all. I like what someone else said. There was no right choice. He just made the choice he could live with. Needless to say the whole situation was messed up. They should’ve been allowed to discuss it and gotten the info together. Or at least at the same time. But there’s one aspect of this I haven’t seen mentioned yet. From a purely scientific perspective there’s a very low chance the curre would’ve worked. Remember the episode? And if it hadn’t worked she would’ve died for nothing. And yes I know how his choice affects things down the line. One more thing. Pedro’s two protective dad personas officially merged this episode. His shooting spree in the hospital gave me very strong Din in Mando s1 or at the end of s2 vibes. I also like that we saw how Ellie got immune.
@Sesskasays,
16:52 would you have sacrificed Ellie? I couldn't have done it. Consent is important.
Ellie was lied to back in Boston. Marlene made Ellie believe that she was going a doctor who wanted to draw blood and run tests--Marlene knew that what was needed was a lot more than that. She might not have known that Ellie was going to have to die, but she certainly knew that that was on the table.
Worst still, Ellie was not free to go. She was Marlene's prisoner and Marlene made it clear from the beginning that she was going to let Ellie go because Ellie had a higher purpose to serve--Marlene had already decided Ellie's fate. I suppose as Anna's (Ellie's mother) chosen guardian, Marlene felt she had the right to do what she was doing, and she convinced Ellie to go across the country, by making her believe that she was going to do a simple procedure and save humanity.
F' that! I don't support that one bit!
Had Ellie known the truth from the beginning or had Marlene came clean at the end and told her the truth instead of lying to her yet again in order to get her in the operation room, I would have been on board with what she and the Fireflies wanted, but she didn't. She was afraid of hearing Ellie tell her no. Ellie's life isn't Marlene's to do with as she pleases, it's Ellie's!
This is why I support Joel's actions. It doesn't matter that he did what he did because he loved Ellie like a daughter. Yes, that was part of it, but what pushed him over the edge was when he learned that Ellie was lied to! Joel wasn't happy about Ellie going into surgery, but surgery, at that moment, didn't mean that she was going to die. It wasn't until he learned what the doctor wanted to do--crack her skull open and split her brain in half to get to harvest the Cordyceps at the base of her brain--did his heart drop. There was no coming back from that, and this was going to happen without Ellie's consent! That's the issue!
Marlene tries to convince Joel that Ellie wanted this procedure even though she didn't agree to it. BS! This whole journey started with a lie! Marlene made Ellie believe that she just needed to meet with their doctor and give some blood and participate in some tests. Marlene might not have known that Ellie was going to have to in fact die, but she definitely knew that Ellie's death was on the table.
Had Marlene told Ellie the truth in Boston, Ellie would have told her to f' off, and Marlene knows it. Marlene had to convince Ellie to go with them to St. Mary's and she could only do that with a lie. The journey, unfortunately was a rough one, and Ellie lost some very important people along the way and those loses quickly added up and now Ellie is suffering from survivor's guilt. She feels like she owes everyone who lost their lives along the way with this possible cure--she wouldn't be here without their sacrifice. What a turn around! Ellie told Joel at the start of episode three that Tess' death wasn't on her. She reminded him that Tess died doing a job she was already going to do because they both needed a car battery, and Joel agreed. Fast forward to the end of the journey and now Ellie's is blaming herself for Tess, Sam and Henry's deaths too. Had Marlene told Ellie the truth, Ellie likely would have agreed to this procedure because of the state she was in. It wouldn't have been fair, but Marlene likely would have gotten her way. And had Joel heard Ellie say that she wanted to go through the procedure, he likely, albeit begrudgingly, would have accepted Ellie's wishes. If he wanted to kidnap Ellie he could have done it a long time ago. The like that was going to end her life against her knowledge is what pushed him over the edge.
Marlene was wrong here. Joel was wrong to lie to Ellie, though I'd argue that it was necessary. Had he told Ellie the truth she would have started a new adventure, looking for other doctors that could potentially continue the process. Joel's like along with his actions, kills any ambition to seek out the Fireflies or any doctor with the knowhow to make a cure or vaccine. With that off the table, Ellie's survivor's guilt will disappear over time, allowing her to live a life, live a life she never got to have. Best of all, she'll be able to make an informed decision in the future about giving or life to science or not if she so chooses. She won't need to be lied to, and that's the way it should be.
Yeah, she'll likely be pissed at Joel for what he's done, but he did what he did to protect her from a lie.
Ellie's story reminds me of enslaved Black Americans and how doctors in the US sacrificed them to hone their skills and extend the lives of those who owned them. Horrible things were done to Black Americans to bring about modern day medicine. One man in particular James Marion Sims might have been the worse, he was prolific in his work of gynecology. Many died under his care and those that survived lived a life of horrible pain. Personally, I think Ellie's being made to be a modern day Henrietta Lacks. She too was lied to by doctors. They didn't tell her that her cells were unique, she had immortal cells, something scientist everywhere had been looking for. Her DNA was taken without her consent and given to doctors the world over who asked for them. Henrietta's story took place 70 years ago when the US was very segregated, meaning Henrietta could only go to hospitals that were designated for Black care, and you know she wasn't given the best care. Science didn't save her, but her immortal cells, He La cell line, continues to save millions around the world. The Polio vaccine, cancer, AIDS, radiation, and toxic treatments, as well as the human skin sensitivity to cosmetics, glue, tape, and more were all made possible because of Henrietta's stolen cells. There are more than 10,000 patents using Henrietta Lack's cells, and her family still hasn't been compensated.
Ellie's a post apocalyptic Henrietta Lacks, and her genetically altered cells are the new He La. Ellie, like Henrietta, would've likely become a foot note in history, while the doctor working on her the cure would have gone down in history as the savior of the human race. The Fireflies would have succeed in overthrowing FEDRA and replacing world governments with themselves.
The Fireflies are wolves in sheep skin, they aren't the heroes they describe themselves to be, and FEDRA aren't exactly the fascist we were told they are. Yes, they've done some bad things, but when you really look at this story, particularly the area of choice, you'll notice that FEDRA is the one offering all the choices while the Fireflies are the ones removing them. Taking away Ellie's ability to choose highlights this very issue.
David's story, to me, was the entire story in a nutshell. David and his Silver Lake flock are Marlene and the Fireflies. They, through David, talked a good game and spoke as though they were for the people, which of course was a lie. They were doing what they were doing because they could and they enjoyed the power they had. David, like, Marlene was going to take from Ellie wanted he wanted from her, consent be damned. David tried to lure Ellie to his side with lies, and she she refuses he forces it and when that doesn't work, he's ready to kill her. Marlene didn't give Ellie the chance to refuse...and she was going to kill her to get what she wanted. Ellie killed David when she knew the truth. What would Ellie have done to Marlene had she known the truth?
"When we are in need, he shall provide" isn't that different from "When you are lost in the darkness, look for the light."
Thanks for this reaction series! It would be awesome if you also reacted to the in-game cutscenes to see all the similarities and differences to the show.