Absolutely. Vessels are actively good, and observers are a total liability. Also, Terran doesn't depend on Vessels for detection. Terrans have scan, which is the best detector by a lot. Side note: mines.
Flash Random vs Soma, Best player ever playing with unknown ability vs a Zerg playing the best games of his life at champion level skill. its a highly uncertain, highly anticipated, potentially historic clash.
Can people stop saying Zerg is too strong. It’s just map pool, this is the only thing that has changed in BW in 20 years. Soma playing great, but best games of his life? Maps can make anyone look like a genius.
@@sinepatre I'm saying it as a Zerg. I play random too, I love it. It does give you an advantage, it's sort of trollish, and it's just fun to play all of the races. Brood wars is just genuinely fun. BUT when I get assigned Zerg it's go time. It's definitely the best race.
@@tomleszczynski2862 nah mini is just underperforming, rain abandoned brood war, and flash is fucking around with random. also the map pool is skewed in zerg's favor
The change in the music that happens at 34:05 gets me every time. Creates a strong nostalgic feeling that overrides w/e else is happening in the match and I completely lose track of what tastosis are talking about.
Best's performance was pitiful. He had two weeks to prepare for this series, against an opponent whose ZvP style is relatively constant. I'm not saying he should have won, but you'd think he would at least come up with something. If you asked him, before the series, "what is your plan to win today?", I'm not sure he would have had anything to answer.
How can Protoss not be ready for lurkers on plasma? Soma did the exact same thing to Snow. Throw down a couple more cannons and hold the choke otherwise you just get flooded
How to win in PvZ: Build just enough but not too many Canons in the right places while still producing enough Probes for sufficient mining. Have a perfectly balanced and upgraded Zealot/Dragoon army with micro good enough to overcome wonky Dragoon AI/pathing. Have High Templars cast optimal Storms in the exact right spots. Employ Corsairs with excellent micro to prevent Probe harassment, prevent Mutalisks from sniping Templars, and keep Observers alive. Use Shuttles and Reavers with impeccable micro to break contains, sustain pushes, and attack turtled Zerg positions. Do all this on 2 bases. How to win in ZvP: Take 3-5 bases, build 4 groups of Hydras, 2 groups of lings, 1 group of Lurkers, go 1a2a3a4a5a6a at the Protoss natural, burrow the lurkers to set a contain, keep some Overlords around so Hydras (and maybe Scourge) can snipe Observers, wait for the gg.
@@tomleszczynski2862 Z has no chance vs P on classic island maps where there is one base with one gas on it. but those maps were removed because Z had literally no chance (one base / one gas with zerg just doesn't really work). maps with similar features could make this matchup look more balanced, however then you have the problem of balancing the other two matchups on the same maps. it's an interesting problem for map makers
Yeah, that's the way of Starcraft. You win some seasons, then you lose some. Protoss had 4 players in ro4 in KSL 3; they have 0 in ASL 10. It may change again in ASL 11. This year was Zerg; who knows what next year will be?
disruption web costs a lot, and zerg tends to spread out, making it less useful. also, it makes zealots useless, if the zerg doesn’t just back up a few tiles.
@@ZerglingWasteland yes but how many corsairs did he have it takes 150 energy and after lets say 5 disruption webs which dont last long its the same story,....im not saying you are wrong but its not as simple
@@Sarum9nich that would be sick. I guess there's a 2/3rd chance he gets a good shot at winning. But these Z's are P killers. So it might be more like a 1/3rd chance of he gets terran.. wouldn't mind just seeing flash have to get thru all the Z in final 4 as T. Fraid the finals gona be anothrr ZvZ tho
@@Art-uz3fk i honestly doubt that Flash will win this, and worried he wont make it into the finals - i seen what those zergs players are capable of and im terrified. They would pose a major threat to terran Flash, yet along random Flash. But im gratefull to him for making this ASL a bit more interesting. Flash is a beacon of hope in endless see of zerg meta.
It feels like protoss has to play a lot better than zerg to win zvp. They need specialized unit composition and perfect coordination to overcome zerg players that can win by building one or two different kinds of units. And lurkers with darkswarm feels fundamentally unfair. There's literally no counter, you just have to run away.
@@istolankinen3482 lmao yeah I'm sure you have don'e that many times on the F rank ladder (Kappa JK tho) but in C rank and above that shit will never be ready by the mid game. D web takes soo long to tech to. You need fleet bacon and then upgrade and then energy and then you need like 8 corsairs to make it viable. It just isn't viable in competitive play
@@istolankinen3482 so what units does protoss have that can stand in disruption web, and do huge area damage while being immune to virtually every attack?
Seems like everybody acts as if Plasma were an island map, but for practical purposes it's not. You're wide open as soon as the opponent has Lurkers/Siege tanks/templars/reavers.
He's always been my favourite Zerg. It's a shame he hasn't a better ZvT since it's my favourite match-up though. He's amazing, scary as fuck and relentless. He never really dropped.
I'm a noob at BW, what was Best supposed to do differently here? I get the first game he had a weird build and then lost his HT/shuttle for free, then second game maybe he could've had an additional cannon and a zealot at that egg wallin, then third game...?
Did you miss the stat in this series that said best had a better pvz winrate than rain? This map pool is incredibly Z favored, and these are possibly the 3 most Z favored. I want to see toss win too, but there just isn't much they can do. Maybe tasteless is right, they need to go maelstrom every game.
Bisu's strength was his ridiculous ability to multitask. He's kinda lost it over time. Age, I guess. It's not like DT-sair was some super secret innovative zerg killer on its own.
Something has to be done about future ASL maps cause right now they are heavily zerg favored. 3 zergs and a sprinkle of random for the final 4 is pretty lackluster.
I have questions because i am fairly noobish: how viable would be corsair + dt into archon against a lurker containment? like kill overlords and mc lurkers/overlords? has anyone in the pro scene ever tried that or is it just not doable? My thought process is this: you go corsair to obviously snipe overlords and prevent mutas, zerg goes hydras and lurkers and you know it's coming, so you make dts that can't be killed because you control vision with the corsairs vs overlords. Since they don't have any vision who is there to stop you? Sorry in advance if these are stupid questions.
You can't realistically hope to stop Zerg from bringing an Overlord to the front. Murdering isolated Overlords is one thing; killing them in the middle of a Hydra ball is another. Your Corsairs would get demolished. Corsair + DT is a viable harassment strategy. You can wreak havoc on a Zerg expansion with that kind of technical play. But Corsairs can't just fly over the bulk of the Zerg army to kill Overlords.
@@GrandBenja but wouldnt the zerg need to protect the overlords constantly? they would need to decide whether to bring all the overlords to the hydra ball that will get stormed and corsair'd or let them stay defended back in base thus diminishing the attack force, right? the zerg would be constantly trying to balance their attack and defensive forces and thus leave openings to punish, or am i wrong? im just trying to think of a better solution than goons+obs+storms that obviously didnt work for anyone this season. the toss always only defend until they eventually get overrun by the production of the zerg.
@@c1f3r866 I think you don't realise how quickly corsairs will die if you fly them over the bulk of a Zerg army. As I said, you can harass with your corsairs, you can be a nuisance, but you won't be able to prevent Zerg from having an Overlord over the contain location. Dark Templars are drone killers; their invisibility won't break a contain. Protoss will need to find new strategies to play against that kind of contain. Technical play (Corsair/Reaver), disruption web, and even recall have been suggested. We'll see what the likes of Bisu come up with next season. I'm sure they'll come prepared with a full bag of new tricks. :)
@@GrandBenja look, i'm glad you're answering and all, but I don't think you are getting the big picture im trying to draw here. I get that hydraball is bad, that's why you are supposed to harass with dts in expansions and corsairs disrupt the reinforcements of the attacking force (in my mind, i obviously dont have the skills to prove my theory). It's all about dispersing the hydraball after all to make the lurkers vulnerable. Also i'm not suggesting to 50IQ a+move into the hydra army in hope of suicide bombing overlords. After reading my suggestion again it sounds like im agressive or condescending, but I'm not. So please don't be mad at me. I'm not trying to attack you here.
well vs protoss it is deff not balanced like the match is broken. Literally even zerg players say it. If you ask any protoss pro they will say pvz is by far the hardest match up in the game
@@alexfriedman2047 There's always been a strange dependence on map for balance. Just remembering Sparkle from a few seasons ago, or pretty much any other Island map - Zerg blows. Now imagine just a flat map, no cliffs or obstacles. Zerg always wins
@@MundaneDave Yeah, the hard part is changing that kind of balance with a land map. The reason it made such a difference with an island map is because of the way the air race is won by protoss. Protoss gets a much better air army but if and only if there is no ground army. Can they even make a "normal" map that can b e protoss favored like we had with sparkle? Like is it even possible? lol
@@alexfriedman2047 I doubt it. It sucks, because I liked Sparkle's attempt at finding some sort of island balance. So terribly P > Z > T. There isn't much complaint with the maps this season, at least. I mean, can you say the maps cost Best the series here? Zero really did play extremely well.
@@MundaneDave Idk but that map with the eggs is so bad for PvZ lol. Protoss has to defend everywhere. I think it can be done but they have to actually *want* to make a map for pvz first. lol
I don't get it. Why most pro letting the obs die so ezy? Just upgrade the obs range and put it out of hydra range. Obs is the most important unit in games.
25/75 for obs vs 75/300 for sci vessel I think is a pretty big cost difference. Sci vessels can be killed with 2 scourge. Require Starport with control tower add on as well, so comparable in price to robobay. Yes Sci vesels have 3 decent spells, but to access them also require expensive upgrades too.
Yeah, very one-sided games in both GSL and ASL recently. This is the last SC we have from Korea for months and months, wish it produced more epic matches.
We enjoy your after game banter. Don't try to cut it short. Hell run over with it! Excited for Larva vs Queen!!! GO LARVA!!!! Larva's fist is so much bigger than queen's he has to use his other hand to hold it up
Best's observer control was disgraceful. Do protoss players not put their Observers in separate control groups? It's so common to see them way out in front of all their forces getting repeatedly sniped.
So instead of getting like 4 high templars and storm, you’re donna get a d-web after which they just unburrow and move a bit back. Doesn’t really sound like a problem solver. I’m starting to like the recall idea though, that’s something that could actually break the zergs neck.
@@veidro Yeah, I suppose, I just thought that templars would get sniped before they got in range to storm the lurkers. Recall does sound like a good strategy tho. With the d-web, I suppose you could keep pushing back the lurkers.
I think you should not have disruption web that early in the game, it usually comes later. You could have reaver though, just to defend against early lurker that seem almost certain in that map. Then later add shutle and d web/weapon upgrades if going on corsairs at all. Usually upgrade corsairs if you have stacked them, if you lose them dont bother but 4+ and still making them is worth it and corsair weapon upgrade is one of the better upgrades in the game, it makes them way stronger as they can hit multiple units at once and have low base damage so even 5 to 6 is value but 5 to 7 and 8 is even more. You can eventually two shot a stack of mutas and 3 shot overlords (10+ corsairs) in the same time than shutting all ground to air down with d web. They are almost as ridiculous as valkyries in that aspect but have more utility through disruption web. Only upgrade if you do plan to reach 10+ or full group. They will never run out of targets against zerg as they must have overlords so making them non stop is good and when making them non stop upgrading is even better.
Nah it would never ever be ready in time for that. Honestly Recall would be more viable, if anything. For D web you need Fleet beacon, then upgrade, then wait for the energy, then continue to make corsairs so it's not just 1-2 spells, then the zerg just unburrows moves back, and burrows again. It's just not viable to fight off lurker contain. A recall might actually work though. If you did some harass with shuttles in the meantime you could just save up units and then bust a fatty recall. The zerg would have to turn around and then you can bust out and take a third. It's viable but IDK if it would ever work at high level play.
Protoss have quite a bit advantages on Plazma. many Protoss played on that map that far better than other races play, and have come out with quite rare losses
@@ghtjdrla I think on other maps protoss expand to the natural and makes a wall. This wall defend both the main and the natural. On Plasma protoss doesnt have a way to defend both the main and the natural because the expansion is in the open. On paper the map is blocked, but in practice the zerg will open it very easy with lurkers, while the protoss cannot open it as efficiently as zerg. This allows the zerg to teach, put down the hatcheries and drone up for free without any danger of zealot pressure, and then open the map to his advantage. The protoss then has to deal with possible attacks from many directions and the game goes down for protoss. The only way to avoid this posibility for attacks from multipe directions is to try to expand on some of the other high ground bases. Then the protoss end up with 2 separate bases and again has to setup defense twice - the result of this is 2 high ground bases with many photon cannons. Additional problem when sitting only on high ground bases is the very limited space for buidings and units. What make you think the map has advantages for protoss (compared to other maps) ?
@@youtubewatcher5500 of course Zealot pressure is tricky but if they can expand bases on the natural without any danger, Protoss get better economy than Zerg and tech up more early without worrying about Hydra bust. in other words, Zerg dont have much to do without open Lurker below website has game record between progamer sponbbang.com/race/ search 플라즈마(플라즈마 is Plasma in Korean) and check record 65%+ winrates against Zerg Snow and Best scouted preparing Lurker with Corsair but didnt prepared enough Snow built Cannons too late and has only 1 Dragoon and as you saw Best tried to defend with only 1 Cannon they lose cause they did exactly same mistake
Why do I feel as though the Protoss’ on this map just loved to be punished? It’s still a Zerg? Wall your shit off? Best had PERFECT INFO. Wall off your main and the top expansion and confront the attack head on? Nah nah, let’s just put one cannon there and not even attempt to stop him from running down a choke that allows one lurker at a time and also lets leave the main choke undefended which also only allows up literally one unit at a time. Good idea. Fuck sake.
Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to do some balance patch to improve "observer"!!! It costs freaking 75 gas and it gets destroyed so easy. Overlord costs 100minerals with no gas. Terran's scan costs 50 gas but you not gonna miss it when you really need it. Observer? costs 375 gas to just build the very first one. Speed is terrible, and its armor and HP are terrible. OMG!!! Seriously blizzard!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!! I tell you the options in Most Important Order in my view & I am NOT saying that All the Points below Should Be Done!! 1. Reduce the cost of an observer 2. Improve the observer's HP and/or armor. 3. Reduce the cost of observer upgrades. 4. Reduce the cost of observatory building. 5.Improve observer's speed without the upgrade. 6. Reduce the cost of observatory building. 7. Reduce the cost of Robotics facility, maybe just minerals if you don't want to touch the gas cost. (***8. Reduce the cost of a scout and its upgrades costs and improve it's ground attack XDXD) KEKEKEKE
@@filoflin5345 How about our PRINCE of the SKY? Well the PRINCE MUST BE SO SICK! Havent seen him doing anything good FOR A LOOOOOONG TIME! Must be training inside the castle freaking hard!! Freaking useless unit and SCBW is just no fun watching!!!
The first comment that i agree with every point however blizzard will do something after see how t and z destroy every protos player in this tournament? Damm!
Oh yeah and meanwhile nerf vultures make storm cost 100 mana irradiate 100 mana nerf plague make Protoss shield upgrade better etc etc etc Any change to this game will ruin it. It’s perfect as it is. Best just played awful.
There's nothing wrong with balance. Bisu last week went 7-1 against Soma. The problem is that Zerg players have made a lot of progress in this new bw era, while Protoss have been mostly stagnant.
Yeah Best choked! Dissapointing. Game 2 especially. . How is goon observer counter to lurker / ling bust? If he slow walked a Reaver it wouldv been GG. Or even just a few more canons too. I guess it's a scouting issue. He is forced to spend gas on a stargate and corsair just to find out hes not going air. If he was more actively sending probe scouts maybe that wouldv been the solution. Even losing 4 probe scouts is worth knowing if there's a lurker bust coming.
@@Art-uz3fk Also why was best's army not ready at the choke? It was pretty narrow and he just let z come in without any kiting at least at the choke. That's why the cannon fell so quick.
I wish these guys would use the actual In Flames version of Only For The Weak. I cant stand the voice of the singer for the cover-version they always play...
@@allydea why i led off with "I wish", and i strongly doubt In Flames would have a problem allowing their 20 year old song to be used in this capacity. someone from Afreeca just needs to ask!
well, I root for z in general, but at this point I kinda hope flash will win this osl. It would be the most epic result in starcraft history. and in the most zergy osl ever.
@@karlhans6678 while that is true it seems protoss is pretty bad historically at the very top. The maps are very import andnthese maps seems lurker friendly
@@hkl1459 its true that protoss has the lowest skillfloor but its not the reason they're getting crushed its cause theres no top level protoss player except Bisu and Rain that left.
@@kevinrojas4070 yeah from my experience 1 vs 7 CPU protoss has the worst composition of units and you can see how easily they get overwhelmed aslo remaking army time is qutie long full zerg > all full terran mech > toss easily full toss > 404 not found
Idk I was thinking Corsair-DT and really control the detection with that many sairs, but he sniffed aggression coming sooner than he thought and had to just make HTs. My guess is as good as yours though.
not really. these maps just favor zerg over toss and terran and its not even close. 2 protoss and 1 terran in the final 8 is proof enough of that and only reason flash made it with random this far is because he hasnt had to play any zerg players yet.
@@justintheklutch1364 I mean you might be right but most Zerg players are actually playing out of their mind while most protoss players are playing kinda poorly. Like honestly the only exciting matches that involved a protoss in all of RO24 was probably Flash vs Sn0w and that was because flash rolled protoss twice....
@@justintheklutch1364 No, nwbtoss is just pretty bad vs zerg. Like, I don't know how they ever win, and when they do, it's more a shame on the zerg than a win for the nwbtoss.
![[ENG] AfreecaTV StarLeague(ASL) S10 Ro.4 Match1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cahNy3rqpus/mqdefault.jpg)
![[ENG] AfreecaTV StarLeague(ASL) S10 Ro.4 Match1](/img/tr.png)
![[ENG] ASL Season12 Ro.8 Match3 soma vs Rush (Tastosis)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8HjSsaMqPb0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[ENG] AfreecaTV StarLeague(ASL) S9 Ro.4 Day1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cAuVZFhizRU/mqdefault.jpg)
Artosis, “I would trade vessels for observers in most matchups.” Is the dumbest thing ever said in your brood war casting career.
怎么 好玩的 很棒啊☺️☺️☺️👏👏👏
+1
Yeah dude. Observers are 25% the cost and can not cast spells. Obviously vessels are more important.
The only Protoss who can save us is Flash
Flash, save us from filthy zerg hordes! Or at least make it into final round, i dont finals to be zvz. Zvz is the most boring mirror match by far.
Lol, maybe Jae Dong will beat him as a Terran next year.
Thank you for the spoiler :(
all mirror matches are awful but TvT is by far the most long and boring of them
@@cholobeats9864
I love TvT to be honest.
Professional protoss player performs perplexingly poorly
Underrated comment
Protoss prefers previous (map) pools, probably predicated 'pon PvZ problems
The big question was "where is Reaver?" I agree with you. it is very perplexingly poorly.
haahahaha. LMFAO BWAHAHAHAHAAHa
Precisely
Come on Arty. Science Vessel is infinitely superior to the observer. GG
Absolutely. Vessels are actively good, and observers are a total liability.
Also, Terran doesn't depend on Vessels for detection. Terrans have scan, which is the best detector by a lot.
Side note: mines.
No No No! Observers are upgradable and if you click enough times, they'll tell you a very important message from Diablo 1.
Yeah SV is much better.
@Bill Simmons idk Hallucination pretty good
@Bill Simmons naw id say plague, dark swarm, statis field, recall or psi storm is the best ability in the game.
Flash Random vs Soma, Best player ever playing with unknown ability vs a Zerg playing the best games of his life at champion level skill.
its a highly uncertain, highly anticipated, potentially historic clash.
Flash will lose, even when he's terran. Zerg is just too strong
Can people stop saying Zerg is too strong. It’s just map pool, this is the only thing that has changed in BW in 20 years. Soma playing great, but best games of his life? Maps can make anyone look like a genius.
JD
@@sinepatre I'm saying it as a Zerg. I play random too, I love it. It does give you an advantage, it's sort of trollish, and it's just fun to play all of the races. Brood wars is just genuinely fun. BUT when I get assigned Zerg it's go time. It's definitely the best race.
@@tomleszczynski2862 nah mini is just underperforming, rain abandoned brood war, and flash is fucking around with random. also the map pool is skewed in zerg's favor
I could listen to tastoisis cast pong and be entertained
The change in the music that happens at 34:05 gets me every time. Creates a strong nostalgic feeling that overrides w/e else is happening in the match and I completely lose track of what tastosis are talking about.
Judging by the length of the vod... this was not the Best day.
get out
He didn't play bad at all. But Zerg.
allydea did we watch the same game 1?
@@nimblesheepvenomous3811 he watched another game.
Tartosis Start: 10:43
Game 1: 23:51
Game 2: 44:17
Game 3: 1:02:41
I'm a huge fan of Tartless
Best's performance was pitiful. He had two weeks to prepare for this series, against an opponent whose ZvP style is relatively constant. I'm not saying he should have won, but you'd think he would at least come up with something.
If you asked him, before the series, "what is your plan to win today?", I'm not sure he would have had anything to answer.
You’re right... it was just so disappointing....
Sad performance indeed.
I feel like Soma should take ASL this year; but, playing against Random is just bananas. So excited!
Nope Queen will win
THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!
Well, without even watching i'm sure everyone knows the outcome of this set.
PvZ is totally fair and doesn't need any balancing. It's totally 100% balanced
@@alexfriedman2047 cry more airhead
@@beridledodopidop4822 Ul be crying after i beat u noobie. 1v1?
Whats scary is that queen hasn't stopped streaming. He's just like ya sure, watch how I play, not like you could stop me
와 장난아님
How can Protoss not be ready for lurkers on plasma? Soma did the exact same thing to Snow. Throw down a couple more cannons and hold the choke otherwise you just get flooded
Best did the exact same mistake, just 1 cannon and not next to the eggs.
I just want everyone to know that I first played Starcraft on N64.
Same
You should pad the video at the end so that people don't know who the winner is after just watching game 1!
The stars are aligned for Larva and his ZvZ skills imho
Queen will handily win this tournament.
How to win in PvZ:
Build just enough but not too many Canons in the right places while still producing enough Probes for sufficient mining. Have a perfectly balanced and upgraded Zealot/Dragoon army with micro good enough to overcome wonky Dragoon AI/pathing. Have High Templars cast optimal Storms in the exact right spots. Employ Corsairs with excellent micro to prevent Probe harassment, prevent Mutalisks from sniping Templars, and keep Observers alive. Use Shuttles and Reavers with impeccable micro to break contains, sustain pushes, and attack turtled Zerg positions. Do all this on 2 bases.
How to win in ZvP:
Take 3-5 bases, build 4 groups of Hydras, 2 groups of lings, 1 group of Lurkers, go 1a2a3a4a5a6a at the Protoss natural, burrow the lurkers to set a contain, keep some Overlords around so Hydras (and maybe Scourge) can snipe Observers, wait for the gg.
I love how Queen wants to smile, but he try to hide it
I was more impressed by Soma vs Snow, but I feel like Queen didn't even shift into second gear.
Evil triumphs again. Need better PvZ maps for future ASL's.
Needs better protoss players too
where what? they get wrecked on island maps, wrecked on regular... zerg is just the better race
@@tomleszczynski2862 Z has no chance vs P on classic island maps where there is one base with one gas on it. but those maps were removed because Z had literally no chance (one base / one gas with zerg just doesn't really work). maps with similar features could make this matchup look more balanced, however then you have the problem of balancing the other two matchups on the same maps. it's an interesting problem for map makers
Your name. AHHA. u forgot the MCRAPER part. lol.
Does anyone think Bisu in the past was stronger than current protoss players ?
Set 1: Polypoid @ 00:23:50
Set 2: Plasma @ 00:44:20
Set 3: Benzene @ 1:02:45
Set 4: Ringing Bloom @ 1:16:00
Set 5: Shakuras Temple @ 1:27:15
Damn same loss as previous PvZ? Maybe they did not handled the match pool correctly this time? Hope Flash win the semi so we don't get ZvZ finals..
The lurker build on plasma works every time
I learned so much about pelicans today :D
2020 does it again...
可能啊☺️☺️
While flash is in the tournament, my favourite race is always represented. Happy days!
Soma VS flaSh is the real finals
14m, 10m, 15m for a grand total of 39 minutes of game time in a 1 and a half hour video.
That peach drink looks good tho
@@じょせふ-v2z peach drink is good. its eXpensive tho. cost 1.6 dollars
the protoss race needs Bisu to lead them vs Zerg
I skip through at least 2/3 of these. Even during each game, I'll skip 2-5 minutes in depending on when builds are culminating.
@@plasmaastronaut bisu got his ass stomped in ro24
Thank you AfreecaTV !
Worry not my protoss brothers the wheel will keep turning and before long we will be back on top
Yeah, that's the way of Starcraft. You win some seasons, then you lose some. Protoss had 4 players in ro4 in KSL 3; they have 0 in ASL 10. It may change again in ASL 11. This year was Zerg; who knows what next year will be?
At least there weren't mutas flying around sniping templars for minutes and a Protoss unable to make a Dark archon. Still brutal
Can someone explain to me why don't they use disruption web and dragoons to bust out of these contains?
that takes time and resources if zerg senses that your doing this it will take another approach
disruption web costs a lot, and zerg tends to spread out, making it less useful. also, it makes zealots useless, if the zerg doesn’t just back up a few tiles.
because Disruption Web is a total of 500/400 when you consider the cost of a superfluous building and an upgrade.
@@ZerglingWasteland yes but how many corsairs did he have it takes 150 energy and after lets say 5 disruption webs which dont last long its the same story,....im not saying you are wrong but its not as simple
@@filoflin5345 I'm saying 500/400 is a lot at a pro level. Idk what you're disagreeing with.
목소리가 어쩜그리 좋으세요? 감동
Please no zvz finals.
Plot twist: Flash wins semis, but randoms Z every single game in the finals.
@@bo12333 Flash has secretly been offracing terran this whole time
@@bo12333 Zerg is Flash's weakest race. I want him to instead roll protoss 3 times and beat zerg. Aiur's honor needs to be restored.
@@Sarum9nich that would be sick. I guess there's a 2/3rd chance he gets a good shot at winning. But these Z's are P killers. So it might be more like a 1/3rd chance of he gets terran.. wouldn't mind just seeing flash have to get thru all the Z in final 4 as T. Fraid the finals gona be anothrr ZvZ tho
@@Art-uz3fk i honestly doubt that Flash will win this, and worried he wont make it into the finals - i seen what those zergs players are capable of and im terrified. They would pose a major threat to terran Flash, yet along random Flash. But im gratefull to him for making this ASL a bit more interesting. Flash is a beacon of hope in endless see of zerg meta.
Honest question. Was Best investigated for match fixing as it looked like an honest to god throw.
It feels like protoss has to play a lot better than zerg to win zvp. They need specialized unit composition and perfect coordination to overcome zerg players that can win by building one or two different kinds of units. And lurkers with darkswarm feels fundamentally unfair. There's literally no counter, you just have to run away.
You can return the favor with Disruption Web.
@@istolankinen3482 It's 125 energy, dude! And are you saying Best had 500/400 lying around before the lurkers hit?
@@istolankinen3482 lmao yeah I'm sure you have don'e that many times on the F rank ladder (Kappa JK tho) but in C rank and above that shit will never be ready by the mid game. D web takes soo long to tech to. You need fleet bacon and then upgrade and then energy and then you need like 8 corsairs to make it viable. It just isn't viable in competitive play
@@istolankinen3482 so what units does protoss have that can stand in disruption web, and do huge area damage while being immune to virtually every attack?
Queen looking really scary. But Best also looked off his game. Pity, I really like his play normally.
Seems like everybody acts as if Plasma were an island map, but for practical purposes it's not. You're wide open as soon as the opponent has Lurkers/Siege tanks/templars/reavers.
他肯定很努力准备了
He's always been my favourite Zerg. It's a shame he hasn't a better ZvT since it's my favourite match-up though. He's amazing, scary as fuck and relentless. He never really dropped.
Best lost because his monikor photo has him with thumb down. Everything else he did right but it wasn't enough to overcome
Why was best attacking the warping gateway with his probes at 1:05:45?
cause worker dont have Hold position. so he attacking gateway with probe to hold position
@@ghtjdrla wow, cool trick
Protoss needs new meta or something vs zerg. Only Rain & Bisu are good vs top zergs
I'm a noob at BW, what was Best supposed to do differently here? I get the first game he had a weird build and then lost his HT/shuttle for free, then second game maybe he could've had an additional cannon and a zealot at that egg wallin, then third game...?
Did you miss the stat in this series that said best had a better pvz winrate than rain? This map pool is incredibly Z favored, and these are possibly the 3 most Z favored. I want to see toss win too, but there just isn't much they can do. Maybe tasteless is right, they need to go maelstrom every game.
Bisu's strength was his ridiculous ability to multitask. He's kinda lost it over time. Age, I guess. It's not like DT-sair was some super secret innovative zerg killer on its own.
@@MundaneDave except it was.
@@MundaneDave Yeah he beat Savior arguably the best zerg on the planet at the time with that single strat 3 games in a row.
Something has to be done about future ASL maps cause right now they are heavily zerg favored. 3 zergs and a sprinkle of random for the final 4 is pretty lackluster.
Band-aids can be SO CUTE!
Ive never seen a cannon rush work in ASL... has anyone? Id like to see how it works...
Hard to see flash winning with 3 zergs. We'll see though, should be interesting.
Doubt it. It's not so easy even when he's Terran, and they'll surely slaughter him if he's zerg.
Pretty lackluster tournament so far, apart from lights group in ro24.
could it be the maps? I wonder what Zerg's record is on Plasma lol
@@dal1371 to me t looks like not much time put by the players for preparation and refining the play.
Its called a lair, not a layer
Anyone know the song that plays after the first game ends? At 38:38
Living a Lie - Reasons Behind
Where's the zerg players complaining that zerg are weak?
Flash please smash these zergs in the semi finals.
People complain that zerg is weak? Lol
@@user-iu1ru1qz7u yup.
@@karlhans6678 well, that's comedic.
Protos imba race
Is what they say
But we will defeat them next time C: Our time will come again
everyone gonna go zerg next ASL unless they figure out some very good anti lurker/hydra plays
Zerg supremacy!
lol "are the minerals showing up through poor macro?" Artosis always has to get in the digs on protoss.
Bring back lost temple for some good old Terran domination
I have questions because i am fairly noobish: how viable would be corsair + dt into archon against a lurker containment? like kill overlords and mc lurkers/overlords? has anyone in the pro scene ever tried that or is it just not doable?
My thought process is this: you go corsair to obviously snipe overlords and prevent mutas, zerg goes hydras and lurkers and you know it's coming, so you make dts that can't be killed because you control vision with the corsairs vs overlords. Since they don't have any vision who is there to stop you?
Sorry in advance if these are stupid questions.
You can't realistically hope to stop Zerg from bringing an Overlord to the front. Murdering isolated Overlords is one thing; killing them in the middle of a Hydra ball is another. Your Corsairs would get demolished.
Corsair + DT is a viable harassment strategy. You can wreak havoc on a Zerg expansion with that kind of technical play. But Corsairs can't just fly over the bulk of the Zerg army to kill Overlords.
@@GrandBenja but wouldnt the zerg need to protect the overlords constantly? they would need to decide whether to bring all the overlords to the hydra ball that will get stormed and corsair'd or let them stay defended back in base thus diminishing the attack force, right? the zerg would be constantly trying to balance their attack and defensive forces and thus leave openings to punish, or am i wrong?
im just trying to think of a better solution than goons+obs+storms that obviously didnt work for anyone this season. the toss always only defend until they eventually get overrun by the production of the zerg.
@@c1f3r866 I think you don't realise how quickly corsairs will die if you fly them over the bulk of a Zerg army. As I said, you can harass with your corsairs, you can be a nuisance, but you won't be able to prevent Zerg from having an Overlord over the contain location. Dark Templars are drone killers; their invisibility won't break a contain.
Protoss will need to find new strategies to play against that kind of contain. Technical play (Corsair/Reaver), disruption web, and even recall have been suggested. We'll see what the likes of Bisu come up with next season. I'm sure they'll come prepared with a full bag of new tricks. :)
@@GrandBenja look, i'm glad you're answering and all, but I don't think you are getting the big picture im trying to draw here. I get that hydraball is bad, that's why you are supposed to harass with dts in expansions and corsairs disrupt the reinforcements of the attacking force (in my mind, i obviously dont have the skills to prove my theory). It's all about dispersing the hydraball after all to make the lurkers vulnerable. Also i'm not suggesting to 50IQ a+move into the hydra army in hope of suicide bombing overlords.
After reading my suggestion again it sounds like im agressive or condescending, but I'm not. So please don't be mad at me. I'm not trying to attack you here.
There are games where you see this strategy to bring victory, even in this season earlier rounds. I doubt anyone can bring anything new though.
Yeah Queen makes zerg look imbalanced af. lol
well vs protoss it is deff not balanced like the match is broken. Literally even zerg players say it. If you ask any protoss pro they will say pvz is by far the hardest match up in the game
@@alexfriedman2047 There's always been a strange dependence on map for balance. Just remembering Sparkle from a few seasons ago, or pretty much any other Island map - Zerg blows. Now imagine just a flat map, no cliffs or obstacles. Zerg always wins
@@MundaneDave Yeah, the hard part is changing that kind of balance with a land map. The reason it made such a difference with an island map is because of the way the air race is won by protoss. Protoss gets a much better air army but if and only if there is no ground army. Can they even make a "normal" map that can b e protoss favored like we had with sparkle? Like is it even possible? lol
@@alexfriedman2047 I doubt it. It sucks, because I liked Sparkle's attempt at finding some sort of island balance. So terribly P > Z > T. There isn't much complaint with the maps this season, at least. I mean, can you say the maps cost Best the series here? Zero really did play extremely well.
@@MundaneDave Idk but that map with the eggs is so bad for PvZ lol. Protoss has to defend everywhere.
I think it can be done but they have to actually *want* to make a map for pvz first. lol
very one sided games :/ bummer Mirror matches are the worst.
ZvZ is pretty interesting for a mirror match IMO, especially with Larva.
I don't get it. Why most pro letting the obs die so ezy? Just upgrade the obs range and put it out of hydra range. Obs is the most important unit in games.
Prime Jaedong potential in Queen? He has a scary pressure game!
37:30 Arto so off base saying science vessels are worse than observers. WHAT
25/75 for obs vs 75/300 for sci vessel I think is a pretty big cost difference. Sci vessels can be killed with 2 scourge. Require Starport with control tower add on as well, so comparable in price to robobay. Yes Sci vesels have 3 decent spells, but to access them also require expensive upgrades too.
I’m sad
Yeah, very one-sided games in both GSL and ASL recently. This is the last SC we have from Korea for months and months, wish it produced more epic matches.
@@PawsAndKeys well last asl was pretty epic. except finals ofc
The entire ro8 has been pretty ... uneven. I hope the ro4 brings less onesided matches
Why does protoss almost never beat zerg
Because Bisu was defeated by terran too early
@@scartissue5992 and rain is injured/retired
We enjoy your after game banter. Don't try to cut it short. Hell run over with it! Excited for Larva vs Queen!!! GO LARVA!!!! Larva's fist is so much bigger than queen's he has to use his other hand to hold it up
Best's observer control was disgraceful. Do protoss players not put their Observers in separate control groups? It's so common to see them way out in front of all their forces getting repeatedly sniped.
Nah most don't You either keep it in the same control group with army or not at all. Most just click on the obs and move it during fights.
I'm sure some Pro Protoss players might keep it on a hot key but I've seen some high ranking protoss players just keep it in the army's hotkey.
I guess we need group play for Ro8 as well.
I know disruption webs aren't used in pro games at all but I feel the game one they'd have come in handy with breaking out of a lurker contain
So instead of getting like 4 high templars and storm, you’re donna get a d-web after which they just unburrow and move a bit back. Doesn’t really sound like a problem solver. I’m starting to like the recall idea though, that’s something that could actually break the zergs neck.
@@veidro Yeah, I suppose, I just thought that templars would get sniped before they got in range to storm the lurkers. Recall does sound like a good strategy tho. With the d-web, I suppose you could keep pushing back the lurkers.
What about Dweb on that egg map where they try to bust with lurkers? Could you dweb that spot so they can't get all the eggs down?
I think you should not have disruption web that early in the game, it usually comes later. You could have reaver though, just to defend against early lurker that seem almost certain in that map. Then later add shutle and d web/weapon upgrades if going on corsairs at all. Usually upgrade corsairs if you have stacked them, if you lose them dont bother but 4+ and still making them is worth it and corsair weapon upgrade is one of the better upgrades in the game, it makes them way stronger as they can hit multiple units at once and have low base damage so even 5 to 6 is value but 5 to 7 and 8 is even more. You can eventually two shot a stack of mutas and 3 shot overlords (10+ corsairs) in the same time than shutting all ground to air down with d web. They are almost as ridiculous as valkyries in that aspect but have more utility through disruption web. Only upgrade if you do plan to reach 10+ or full group. They will never run out of targets against zerg as they must have overlords so making them non stop is good and when making them non stop upgrading is even better.
Nah it would never ever be ready in time for that. Honestly Recall would be more viable, if anything. For D web you need Fleet beacon, then upgrade, then wait for the energy, then continue to make corsairs so it's not just 1-2 spells, then the zerg just unburrows moves back, and burrows again. It's just not viable to fight off lurker contain. A recall might actually work though. If you did some harass with shuttles in the meantime you could just save up units and then bust a fatty recall. The zerg would have to turn around and then you can bust out and take a third. It's viable but IDK if it would ever work at high level play.
Protoss players need to up their game tbh.
Well dude was the champion last year so it's not like this was unexpected... In general though yeah they got whopped this season.
Plasma seems impossible in this matchup
I came to the same conclusion. The fact that Best has chosen Plasma probably means he had 0 prepararion.
Protoss have quite a bit advantages on Plazma. many Protoss played on that map that far better than other races play, and have come out with quite rare losses
@@ghtjdrla I think on other maps protoss expand to the natural and makes a wall. This wall defend both the main and the natural. On Plasma protoss doesnt have a way to defend both the main and the natural because the expansion is in the open. On paper the map is blocked, but in practice the zerg will open it very easy with lurkers, while the protoss cannot open it as efficiently as zerg. This allows the zerg to teach, put down the hatcheries and drone up for free without any danger of zealot pressure, and then open the map to his advantage. The protoss then has to deal with possible attacks from many directions and the game goes down for protoss.
The only way to avoid this posibility for attacks from multipe directions is to try to expand on some of the other high ground bases. Then the protoss end up with 2 separate bases and again has to setup defense twice - the result of this is 2 high ground bases with many photon cannons. Additional problem when sitting only on high ground bases is the very limited space for buidings and units.
What make you think the map has advantages for protoss (compared to other maps) ?
I had a thought that protoss do not have enough room to manouver and to place buildings in that map.
@@youtubewatcher5500 of course Zealot pressure is tricky but if they can expand bases on the natural without any danger, Protoss get better economy than Zerg and tech up more early without worrying about Hydra bust.
in other words, Zerg dont have much to do without open Lurker
below website has game record between progamer
sponbbang.com/race/
search 플라즈마(플라즈마 is Plasma in Korean) and check record
65%+ winrates against Zerg
Snow and Best scouted preparing Lurker with Corsair but didnt prepared enough
Snow built Cannons too late and has only 1 Dragoon
and as you saw Best tried to defend with only 1 Cannon
they lose cause they did exactly same mistake
Que lo pario!!!! Queen alto nivel tiene.
Song playing at the hour mark?
Lacklustre games
Why the fuck doesn’t he attack the lurkers coming through the small choke in the eggs? Slow them down?
Why do I feel as though the Protoss’ on this map just loved to be punished? It’s still a Zerg? Wall your shit off? Best had PERFECT INFO. Wall off your main and the top expansion and confront the attack head on? Nah nah, let’s just put one cannon there and not even attempt to stop him from running down a choke that allows one lurker at a time and also lets leave the main choke undefended which also only allows up literally one unit at a time. Good idea. Fuck sake.
Soma should win, but I hope nerves don’t get to him.
Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to do some balance patch to improve "observer"!!! It costs freaking 75 gas and it gets destroyed so easy. Overlord costs 100minerals with no gas. Terran's scan costs 50 gas but you not gonna miss it when you really need it. Observer? costs 375 gas to just build the very first one. Speed is terrible, and its armor and HP are terrible. OMG!!! Seriously blizzard!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!
I tell you the options in Most Important Order in my view & I am NOT saying that All the Points below Should Be Done!!
1. Reduce the cost of an observer
2. Improve the observer's HP and/or armor.
3. Reduce the cost of observer upgrades.
4. Reduce the cost of observatory building.
5.Improve observer's speed without the upgrade.
6. Reduce the cost of observatory building.
7. Reduce the cost of Robotics facility, maybe just minerals if you don't want to touch the gas cost.
(***8. Reduce the cost of a scout and its upgrades costs and improve it's ground attack XDXD) KEKEKEKE
@@filoflin5345 How about our PRINCE of the SKY? Well the PRINCE MUST BE SO SICK! Havent seen him doing anything good FOR A LOOOOOONG TIME! Must be training inside the castle freaking hard!! Freaking useless unit and SCBW is just no fun watching!!!
The first comment that i agree with every point however blizzard will do something after see how t and z destroy every protos player in this tournament? Damm!
Oh yeah and meanwhile nerf vultures make storm cost 100 mana irradiate 100 mana nerf plague make Protoss shield upgrade better etc etc etc
Any change to this game will ruin it. It’s perfect as it is. Best just played awful.
@@kevinrojas4070 Oh really? T destroys nothing. 4 T players in the whole championship and only one of them in RO8. Yeah, Terran is on fire.
There's nothing wrong with balance. Bisu last week went 7-1 against Soma. The problem is that Zerg players have made a lot of progress in this new bw era, while Protoss have been mostly stagnant.
What a disappointing series...
Yeah Best choked! Dissapointing. Game 2 especially. . How is goon observer counter to lurker / ling bust? If he slow walked a Reaver it wouldv been GG. Or even just a few more canons too. I guess it's a scouting issue. He is forced to spend gas on a stargate and corsair just to find out hes not going air. If he was more actively sending probe scouts maybe that wouldv been the solution. Even losing 4 probe scouts is worth knowing if there's a lurker bust coming.
@@Art-uz3fk Also why was best's army not ready at the choke? It was pretty narrow and he just let z come in without any kiting at least at the choke. That's why the cannon fell so quick.
@@lucdo1278 goons shouldve been in front of cannon for sure, a few zealots too. Queen actually glitched his lurks on top of the eggs,
I wish these guys would use the actual In Flames version of Only For The Weak. I cant stand the voice of the singer for the cover-version they always play...
Not free though.
@@allydea why i led off with "I wish", and i strongly doubt In Flames would have a problem allowing their 20 year old song to be used in this capacity. someone from Afreeca just needs to ask!
well, I root for z in general, but at this point I kinda hope flash will win this osl. It would be the most epic result in starcraft history. and in the most zergy osl ever.
For random race to win OSL? I think there was one who did win it with random before
Last season round of 8 was so awesome, this season it was total shit
After watching some sc1, im enjoying sc2 balance
lmao its the other way around, sc1 is balanced while sc2 isnt.
@@karlhans6678 it doesn't look more balanced, that's for sure.
@@EJ_7715 this is just one tournament. All races do good at some point or another.
@@karlhans6678 while that is true it seems protoss is pretty bad historically at the very top. The maps are very import andnthese maps seems lurker friendly
can't believe the guy with glasses won.
nice i like
oh gawd... i dont want a ZvZ finals... plz... flash... do your thang. do it for auir
protoss is just too weak
there is no good protoss player since rain left
but even him couldn't beat flash
Race protos is the most weak, theres not balance =/
The price of having the lowest skillfloor.
Also, Queen is the reigning ASL champion, ofc he'd stomp best.
@@hkl1459 its true that protoss has the lowest skillfloor but its not the reason they're getting crushed its cause theres no top level protoss player except Bisu and Rain that left.
@@kevinrojas4070 yeah from my experience 1 vs 7 CPU protoss has the worst composition of units
and you can see how easily they get overwhelmed
aslo remaking army time is qutie long
full zerg > all
full terran mech > toss easily
full toss > 404 not found
@@hkl1459look at overall matches - results and race progress, not a single match
I guess they haven't been a single dominate toss in history of SC:BW
Sup with all the 3-0's?!
I know Best can do better, damn it, but tbh he played these games as if this was a tower defense series! XD
anyone know the song at 39:05?
Reavers?
Zero lo va a humillar.
[MINI SPOILER]
So has anybody sussed out what the real intention is behind the 2-star on the 1st game?
Idk I was thinking Corsair-DT and really control the detection with that many sairs, but he sniffed aggression coming sooner than he thought and had to just make HTs. My guess is as good as yours though.
I was thinking Best was hoping for muta-scourge play from zerg after the failed cannon rush but Queen went for hydra lurk contain instead.
The music choices are....... not fantastic.
Long live zerg
GG
man protoss is really a bad race
not really. these maps just favor zerg over toss and terran and its not even close. 2 protoss and 1 terran in the final 8 is proof enough of that and only reason flash made it with random this far is because he hasnt had to play any zerg players yet.
@@justintheklutch1364 I mean you might be right but most Zerg players are actually playing out of their mind while most protoss players are playing kinda poorly. Like honestly the only exciting matches that involved a protoss in all of RO24 was probably Flash vs Sn0w and that was because flash rolled protoss twice....
@@DarkLeviathan8 Agreed. But even if nwbtoss played better, they would still get wrecked.
@@justintheklutch1364 No, nwbtoss is just pretty bad vs zerg. Like, I don't know how they ever win, and when they do, it's more a shame on the zerg than a win for the nwbtoss.
@@tomleszczynski2862 no protoss in semi final last season, also this season aswell, man protoss is a shit race
Lurker contain needs D-Web. #makedisruptionweb great again.
Flash will win this.
Ro8 as terrible as ro16 was great
Not so Best after all.
Just a little bit best
What's the name of the girl that interviews players??
the name of the interviewer is 이현경