We tried every method we could find with some old chains we had. We found they are all within one full link of each other. I always use method two, my boss uses the same kind of thing as method two, though, by using the maximum length, not the minimum.
This may help some. I just replaced the chain of my bike (Cannondale Evo /Sram Red 10sp) and tried the three different ways. I would have removed 7 links using the big-big way and 6 using both the small small trough the derailleur and math way. I ended up removing 6 as 7 seemed a bit tight for me.
Be careful using method two on shimano 11 speed with shadow rear derailleur. Depending on if your B screw was adjusted correctly, or at all on a new install, that will have a an impact on the measurement you get. I’d suggest using method #1 for the above instances. As an side, I got a brand new cannondale Topstone 105SE that had a chain two links too long, and the B screw was run in practically all the way to make up for the slack (the jockey wheel was nowhere near where it should of been). When I corrected the length using method #1, I had to go back and adjust the B screw about 3-4 turns out from where it had been, but the jockey wheel was now where it should be in proximity to the biggest cog, and the slack was properly taken up in the small-small gears.
I tried the first and second methods to see if there was any difference. The set up is a 48-38-28 triple on the front and a 12-28 on the rear. With the second method the chain was three inches longer than the first. If I can be bothered to faff around with measurements and maths I might do the third later. My own method is to put the chain on the big ring at the front and the small ring at the rear and set the chain so the derailleur cage is vertical. Doing this gave me a length between the two other measurements.
Excellent informative video. Method one did the trick for my bike. Upgraded the front sprocket to a higher tooth count and wasn’t sure how to measure a new chain before this video.
How I do it is the easiest way. Shimano chain, put the chain on the largest sprocket in de back and the largest sprocket in the front. Just as in this video for Method I. Pull the chain tight, find the corresponding link. Add two full links and cut the chain there. KMC chains, same procedure, only when you add two full links then go one back and cut the chain there and attach the missing link. This works for me every time with no hassle. I use this method on single, double and triple systems and it always works fine.
FOR TRIPLE CRANKSET USERS: If you are like me and are measuring the chain using the chainring/cassette method for a TRIPLE CRANKSET, then the little/little method is more accurate. This is because you can see and make sure that the rear derailleur is stretched far enough to keep the chain from rubbing. You can still use the big/big method, however instead of adding two links only add ONE link. The reason being is because the difference from the biggest to the smallest chainring on a triple is larger vs. a double chainring.
What I've always done was putting chain on the biggest chainring in front and biggest cog in the back and stretching it so the cage is moved almost maximum to the front. In worst case scenario the chain would scratch the cage when on smallest cogs (rear and front), which would meant either that the cage is to short or cassette and chainrings don't match. Although you don't risk breaking rear derailleur.
If not much trouble, could you please cut 3 chains using 3 methods and line them side by side? What's about setups with roadlinks and other "extensions" for "spin to win" oriented climbing? The reason why I'm asking is that I'd suggest that the method that results in longer chain length shall be used as a starting point. One can remove some link(s) if the chain rattles when coasting. The recommended by GCN " helicopter tape" must be applied to the chain stay before experimentation.
Thank you Dan; very clear demonstration. Too many chain takes on-line! I use the second method you demonstrated. Soooo easy and never had a problem. GCN-best.
I used method 1, then put the chain through the derailleur and connected it together. Then check the chain isn't rubbing against itself at rear derailleur when on smallest cogs (though how many people cycle with gears set on those cogs - to much flex in it under those circumstances). If in doubt, start with a slightly longer length, as it's easier to remove a link than having to putting one in (and it's more secure).
Method 2 is best all-around, although it sacrifices some shifting crispness...which is why the Shimano method works on cage angle to give the best performance.
Which method is best though? It would have been interesting to see a comparison of all three methods to see how close they are and also to see which length you guys prefer.
YMMV, but I think using the shortest cog and chainring is better, because you may want to change your cassette for one with larger cogs depending on the terrain
In my opinion whichever method you use you have to make sure that the chain is not shorter than the result of method 1. Chain has to be long enough to allow for big-big combination even if you don't normally use it. Otherwise you risk snapping the chain or damaging the drivetrain if you selected that gears by accident.
I've always big big plus two with a medium cage rear mech. If running a longer cage method two might be ideal. A rear mech can take up some extra slack, but if two short you always have problems when shifting in unusual chain angles
First method give shortest possible. Second method give Longest possible. Third one give somewhat short too. Shimano's one in their tech doc give quite medium length. (big chain ring+smallest cassette through all derailleur and the rd going straight down vertically). For me, i trust Shimano.
Thanks for the vid and for explaining so well what I'd been struggling a little to interpret on the page. I'll have to wait until Monday to see how the bike rides but I'm feeling fairly confident about getting it right next time even if I didn't manage it this time.
I'd be tempted to suggest that (the late, great) Sheldon Brown's method (no 1) ought to give the same result as the mathmatical method (no 3) as it's fundamentally doing the same thing. SB also mentions that "SRAM 1X systems require two extra complete links."
A trick is to put FD into the big ring and the RD into second last big gear in back. Feed the whole chain through the big ring into the cassette through that gear ( second biggest cog). Continue to feed the chain into the pulleys all the way and now bring the 2 chain pieces together, hold them with the c clip tool. Now move the rear derailleur bottom cage by hand forward to 2 inches past the cassette biggest. Now use the c clip to move out chain links untill the excess is out. Cut chain here to fit. This is the proper way to do this as it eliminates all guessing.
curiously, while Daniel shows putting the chain on the big chainwheel and big cog, stretch it tight and back off one, the video he points to shows Simon pulling the chain tight and backing off two links. Way to be consistent, guys.
If you're not using a power link, you should be. Best invention ever... Yup, even better than your iPhone. Makes cleaning your bike and drivetrain a breeze.
Uhm, Just attempted method three on a custom build project. Measured twice, counted twice (to be certain), then applied those calc's into your formula... When the outcome produced a Chain that's "FAR TOO SHORT", I retraced my calc's, re-equated them again to your formula, then became annoyed as I followed your instruction verbatim! ...This method might work in limited situations but certainly does not in my case.
2:40 that is how I adjusted on my bike, I fell off the bike 2 times because I was pedaling standing (not on seat) and while hitting small bumps chain jumped off the front sprocket. I think it needs to be more tight.
Whoever had the idea of zooming out when he's pointing out something is either a troll or not the sharpest tool in the shed. Otherwise, I appreciate your help. Thanks a lot.
would be nice to see method 1 used then fitted through the derailleur. I only have 1 from sprocket and 7 rear so I would think that would be the best. Is there any metric equation ? :)
Campagnolo users should note that they need to use a Campagnolo specific method. When I used these method my chain was three links too short! Search “Park Tools : How to size a Campagnolo Bicycle chain”
Are there different gauges of chain??? How do I know which power link to buy??? I am fixing up an old bike.... I don't know anything about bikes.... I would appreciate any help........
I just got a used bike . The small cog gear on the derailleur is toughing the gear set gear . I adjusted the B screw all the way in but its not enough to move it away so that there is space between them . How does the spring that is around the derailleur bolt into the frame work ?
@@mynameisHOPKIRK it does in this specific case. what people [and me] want to know is, do the 3 methods give reproducible results using the ^SAME^ gear ratio, ie the bike in this video. science.
Can you help me understand why the second method has to be on flat ground? I don't see how that would have any impact on the chain sizing vs. on a work stand?
No, First method give shortest possible. Second method give Longest possible. Third one give somewhat short too. Shimano's one in their tech doc give quite medium length. (big chain ring+smallest cassette through all derailleur and the rd going straight down vertically). For me, i trust Shimano.
Hi, please let me know if there is a calculation available for a set up including both 1} ) an oval chain ring; and 2) ceramic speed pulley wheels. Thnx
If you use method 2 as your chain measurement, can you reduce the big chain ring from a 52t to a 50t without adjusting the length of the chain? It would seem you would need to if using method 1.
If the first two methods give the same chain length. I use first one but now it seem to me my chain is little (about 4 links) short. May be second method is the best one with taking one link less.
Followed your mathematical example exactly became I had the same numbers as you and my chain came out way too short. I'm pissed now I got to go spend another fifty bucks but have the shop put it on this time.
Does any of these three method could be use with a MTB and "1 x 10 or 1 x 11 setups" to get optimal chain length ?I'm running a 1 x 10 hardtail fatbike, (10 - 42 at the back and 30 tooth oval chainring at the front) and I think the second method will be spot on, but what your thoughts ?Cheers
I just wanted to check if I had already set my chain at the right length. so. I tried method 1 and my chain was bang on.... I tried method 3 and my chain was bang on again. then I tried method 2 and I would need extra chain links added in. so does the fact I have a long rear derailleur make the difference.
Hi great video and very educational indeed. Question. For method 3. 1. Applicable to Single Speed? 2. Application to Single Speed with OSPW? I have tried this method and discovered that my chain is too long by 10cm. Any negative effect on my drivetrain is its too long?
Sorry if this is a dumb question: are these methods also valid for "crank forward" designs? A friend gave me an Electra Townie 700c 21 speed several years ago, and it needs a new chain. Several forums have mentioned that crank forward bikes usually require especially long chains (around 1 1/2 times the length of a traditional design), but so far I haven't found any that get into the particulars of figuring out how long a chain is needed, and of course Electra's website has zero useful information on where to get compatible parts.
Have you covered anything on chain lines? I just changed my bb so I can use a full ultegra group set but now I realized even with my front and rear mech aligned I have some friction and sideward pressure on my chain. I checked to see if the hanger was misaligned and it wasn't that. And the manuals say that you don't need a spacer for a road crankset. Please help!
Zooming out at a crucial time of the video.. thanks
it would have been interesting to know just how many links each method ended up suggesting as the optional length as a comparison.
Method 3 really worked, my chain was 3.7 cm longer, that's why the gears didn't change smoothly, now everything is perfect. Thank you so much.
GCN you should have compared the number of links for each method to see how comparable they were! Science!
I just tried both, used a marker pen to mark the link and got the same results with both methods.
Its logic, not science.
@@ddpp3492 Vulcan go home!
@@copypaste3526 lol
You should have compare each chain length for each method, then you can go to the conclusion. That would be much more awesome !!
yes, that !
I came here looking for this exact comment!
Agree!
We tried every method we could find with some old chains we had. We found they are all within one full link of each other.
I always use method two, my boss uses the same kind of thing as method two, though, by using the maximum length, not the minimum.
It's amazing how complicated this can be! Thankfully, most of the time we can use an existing chain to compare!
This may help some. I just replaced the chain of my bike (Cannondale Evo /Sram Red 10sp) and tried the three different ways. I would have removed 7 links using the big-big way and 6 using both the small small trough the derailleur and math way. I ended up removing 6 as 7 seemed a bit tight for me.
Be careful using method two on shimano 11 speed with shadow rear derailleur. Depending on if your B screw was adjusted correctly, or at all on a new install, that will have a an impact on the measurement you get. I’d suggest using method #1 for the above instances. As an side, I got a brand new cannondale Topstone 105SE that had a chain two links too long, and the B screw was run in practically all the way to make up for the slack (the jockey wheel was nowhere near where it should of been). When I corrected the length using method #1, I had to go back and adjust the B screw about 3-4 turns out from where it had been, but the jockey wheel was now where it should be in proximity to the biggest cog, and the slack was properly taken up in the small-small gears.
I tried the first and second methods to see if there was any difference. The set up is a 48-38-28 triple on the front and a 12-28 on the rear. With the second method the chain was three inches longer than the first. If I can be bothered to faff around with measurements and maths I might do the third later.
My own method is to put the chain on the big ring at the front and the small ring at the rear and set the chain so the derailleur cage is vertical. Doing this gave me a length between the two other measurements.
Followed first method large chainring front and large at the back plus add on two extra links worked a treat so simple to do. Cheers
For years and years I've wasted hours trying to get the chain length right .... thankyou for such a useful video.
Excellent informative video. Method one did the trick for my bike. Upgraded the front sprocket to a higher tooth count and wasn’t sure how to measure a new chain before this video.
How I do it is the easiest way. Shimano chain, put the chain on the largest sprocket in de back and the largest sprocket in the front. Just as in this video for Method I. Pull the chain tight, find the corresponding link. Add two full links and cut the chain there. KMC chains, same procedure, only when you add two full links then go one back and cut the chain there and attach the missing link. This works for me every time with no hassle. I use this method on single, double and triple systems and it always works fine.
FOR TRIPLE CRANKSET USERS: If you are like me and are measuring the chain using the chainring/cassette method for a TRIPLE CRANKSET, then the little/little method is more accurate. This is because you can see and make sure that the rear derailleur is stretched far enough to keep the chain from rubbing. You can still use the big/big method, however instead of adding two links only add ONE link. The reason being is because the difference from the biggest to the smallest chainring on a triple is larger vs. a double chainring.
What I've always done was putting chain on the biggest chainring in front and biggest cog in the back and stretching it so the cage is moved almost maximum to the front. In worst case scenario the chain would scratch the cage when on smallest cogs (rear and front), which would meant either that the cage is to short or cassette and chainrings don't match. Although you don't risk breaking rear derailleur.
Yes, a much more common sense method.
Shimano reccommends to add 4-6 Links if you work with the first method, otherwise you run the risk of overextending the rear derailleur.
Great video i used method 1 and 3 you cant't go wrong thanks
Tried method 3 for my already fitted chain (114 links) and the equation gave 113.5, pretty accurate in my case!
What equation did you use to figure out the number of links from method 3?
If not much trouble, could you please cut 3 chains using 3 methods and line them side by side?
What's about setups with roadlinks and other "extensions" for "spin to win" oriented climbing?
The reason why I'm asking is that I'd suggest that the method that results in longer chain length shall be used as a starting point. One can remove some link(s) if the chain rattles when coasting. The recommended by GCN " helicopter tape" must be applied to the chain stay before experimentation.
thank you so much! Method 3 enabled me to check the factory installed length. Perfect.
Method 1, camera zooms out every time he says "here" and "there"?!!! Can't see which links he's pointing at...
Yes I know, that was really annoying!!
He definitely needs to redo version 1
Lawrence Ball exactly what I'm dealing with right now 😂😂
Here there and everywhere!
And points with fat thumbs
THANK YOU! This was the best presentation for me regarding the standard male to female linkage as well as the allowance for a quick/master link!!!
have to agree with all comments below there spot on, as using big to big leaves more tension on rear derailleur than the other way.
Thank you Dan; very clear demonstration. Too many chain takes on-line! I use the second method you demonstrated. Soooo easy and never had a problem. GCN-best.
I used method 1, then put the chain through the derailleur and connected it together. Then check the chain isn't rubbing against itself at rear derailleur when on smallest cogs (though how many people cycle with gears set on those cogs - to much flex in it under those circumstances). If in doubt, start with a slightly longer length, as it's easier to remove a link than having to putting one in (and it's more secure).
You could have provided link counts for every method, it would be interesting to compare.
Method 2 is best all-around, although it sacrifices some shifting crispness...which is why the Shimano method works on cage angle to give the best performance.
Which method is best though? It would have been interesting to see a comparison of all three methods to see how close they are and also to see which length you guys prefer.
I was thinking exactly the same thing - how do the three methods compare on the example bike.
YMMV, but I think using the shortest cog and chainring is better, because you may want to change your cassette for one with larger cogs depending on the terrain
+xGshikamaru Yes that seems sensible. Thanks.
In my opinion whichever method you use you have to make sure that the chain is not shorter than the result of method 1. Chain has to be long enough to allow for big-big combination even if you don't normally use it. Otherwise you risk snapping the chain or damaging the drivetrain if you selected that gears by accident.
lel
Method 2 is the best. Simple and effective.
Just did method 2, looking forward to commute tomorrow 👍
Small cog to small chain ring always works for me. Thanks
I've always big big plus two with a medium cage rear mech. If running a longer cage method two might be ideal. A rear mech can take up some extra slack, but if two short you always have problems when shifting in unusual chain angles
First method give shortest possible.
Second method give Longest possible.
Third one give somewhat short too.
Shimano's one in their tech doc give quite medium length.
(big chain ring+smallest cassette through all derailleur and the rd going straight down vertically).
For me, i trust Shimano.
Thanks GCN for posting, great help. If it helps anyone else, I used method 2 and it gave me a chain length that matched my old chain length exactly.
Thanks for the vid and for explaining so well what I'd been struggling a little to interpret on the page. I'll have to wait until Monday to see how the bike rides but I'm feeling fairly confident about getting it right next time even if I didn't manage it this time.
You're welcome!
would like to see all 3 next to each other see what the length similarity is
Good tips
I'd be tempted to suggest that (the late, great) Sheldon Brown's method (no 1) ought to give the same result as the mathmatical method (no 3) as it's fundamentally doing the same thing. SB also mentions that "SRAM 1X systems require two extra complete links."
A trick is to put FD into the big ring and the RD into second last big gear in back. Feed the whole chain through the big ring into the cassette through that gear ( second biggest cog). Continue to feed the chain into the pulleys all the way and now bring the 2 chain pieces together, hold them with the c clip tool. Now move the rear derailleur bottom cage by hand forward to 2 inches past the cassette biggest. Now use the c clip to move out chain links untill the excess is out. Cut chain here to fit. This is the proper way to do this as it eliminates all guessing.
Can you combine 2 chain to make a longer chain?
curiously, while Daniel shows putting the chain on the big chainwheel and big cog, stretch it tight and back off one, the video he points to shows Simon pulling the chain tight and backing off two links. Way to be consistent, guys.
Thanks for the video, I didn't understand anything
Cheers. Followed your method 1. Chain far too short... Great stuff ffs
Did the method one and the chain is far too short as well !
Excellent and thank you. How does one turn the soundtrack off without losing the voice?
If you're not using a power link, you should be. Best invention ever... Yup, even better than your iPhone. Makes cleaning your bike and drivetrain a breeze.
lol
Is a power link the same thing as a Master Link? I see both terms used and I'm new to biking.
That is why you use a KMC chain :)
Thanks! That was exactly what I needed. It measured out all three ways. You guys are great!
I think method 2 makes the most sense since today's derailleurs manage to stretch out much further when using the big rings.
that was great just what l was looking for AND l like there s 3 options .l assume this even takes into account for different size derailleurs too??
Uhm, Just attempted method three on a custom build project. Measured twice, counted twice (to be certain), then applied those calc's into your formula... When the outcome produced a Chain that's "FAR TOO SHORT", I retraced my calc's, re-equated them again to your formula, then became annoyed as I followed your instruction verbatim! ...This method might work in limited situations but certainly does not in my case.
Good video, i want to know how many links in my ideal chain +/- delta?
Thanks bro
2:40 that is how I adjusted on my bike, I fell off the bike 2 times because I was pedaling standing (not on seat) and while hitting small bumps chain jumped off the front sprocket. I think it needs to be more tight.
It would suggest your tensioner is worn out or doesn't move freely because of dirt in its joint
Thank you
Whoever had the idea of zooming out when he's pointing out something is either a troll or not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Otherwise, I appreciate your help. Thanks a lot.
I like method 2 the best since I ride 1x with fat cassettes so it puts the least amount of stress on the mech in the largest cog.
would be nice to see method 1 used then fitted through the derailleur. I only have 1 from sprocket and 7 rear so I would think that would be the best. Is there any metric equation ? :)
Campagnolo users should note that they need to use a Campagnolo specific method. When I used these method my chain was three links too short! Search “Park Tools : How to size a Campagnolo Bicycle chain”
Are there different gauges of chain??? How do I know which power link to buy??? I am fixing up an old bike.... I don't know anything about bikes.... I would appreciate any help........
I just got a used bike . The small cog gear on the derailleur is toughing the gear set gear . I adjusted the B screw all the way in but its not enough to move it away so that there is space between them . How does the spring that is around the derailleur bolt into the frame work ?
Liked method 2 the best.
Works Great !
Very helpful 😮
Well, was waiting for how many links or the length measurement for each of the 3 different methods. :(
That doesn't matter... each specific set up will have its own particular length depending on what gear ratio you have on your bike.... you know.
@@mynameisHOPKIRK it does in this specific case. what people [and me] want to know is, do the 3 methods give reproducible results using the ^SAME^ gear ratio, ie the bike in this video. science.
It would be nice if the video or text also included the equation for chain length in cm, for those of us who aren’t metrically impaired.
multiply or divide by 2.54, as you know. Chains are made in inches, like it or not
When using the big chain ring, big sprocket technique should I pull the derailleur taught?
Can you help me understand why the second method has to be on flat ground? I don't see how that would have any impact on the chain sizing vs. on a work stand?
Dear GCN can you please compare chain length of three methods. Viewers are interested to know that....
Do all three and use the two closest lengths!
Did you see if the 3 different ways gave you the same length chain? might be interesting to know, would also validate all 3 methods.
No,
First method give shortest possible.
Second method give Longest possible.
Third one give somewhat short too.
Shimano's one in their tech doc give quite medium length.
(big chain ring+smallest cassette through all derailleur and the rd going straight down vertically).
For me, i trust Shimano.
That's how I have always done it and have never had a problem... interesting that Shimano recommend that way.
Yep I agree, I used to use the first method but found the chain was way too short on my TT bike, it always felt like it was "dragging"
Dan the future voice of the tour
i love that bike so much
TY
Great video
Hi, please let me know if there is a calculation available for a set up including both 1} ) an oval chain ring; and 2) ceramic speed pulley wheels. Thnx
If you use method 2 as your chain measurement, can you reduce the big chain ring from a 52t to a 50t without adjusting the length of the chain? It would seem you would need to if using method 1.
best for the money.
Replaced a chain for the first time last week literally without having a single thought about the chain length... Bike rides great! Lucky!
I always used method 2 but now with dinnerplate sized cogs in some instances I think method one is a little more certain.
Surely method 1 and method 3 depend on if you running a short cage or long cage mech?!
Thanks, this is going to come handy next weekend when I'll be swapping my big chainring for 50t down from 52t!
If the first two methods give the same chain length. I use first one but now it seem to me my chain is little (about 4 links) short. May be second method is the best one with taking one link less.
soooooo.....what were the length of each chain of each method????
How does that help unless you have the same gears? The point is to measure it against your own setup, he can't tell you this.
Slow🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@GBOAC Helps to know how accurate these methods actually are as they would all have to come out roughly or exactly the same length to be viable.
Would method #3 still work if using an oversized wheel pulley….?
I have used the equasion method and it worked. Great
Method 1 made my chain way too short. Couldn’t shift the 3 biggest chainrings on my 42-11 shimano xt
Followed your mathematical example exactly became I had the same numbers as you and my chain came out way too short. I'm pissed now I got to go spend another fifty bucks but have the shop put it on this time.
I'm considering moving to a set of Rotor Q-Rings. Are there any special concerns in gauging the correct chain length?
Well done. Nice and concise. You answered all of the detailed questions i had in my head.
Knowing me I'm going to use all three methods to make sure I get it right. I hope there is no conflicts.
Can I apply this method even though my rd has an oversized ceramic speed pulley?
Good
First 2 methods gave two different lengths!!!!
What shall i do now?
second. I'm guessing you have a large derailleur.
or maybe a stealth one that takes less chain length... do the 2nd...well 3 months too late I guess
Does any of these three method could be use with a MTB and "1 x 10 or 1 x 11 setups" to get optimal chain length ?I'm running a 1 x 10 hardtail fatbike, (10 - 42 at the back and 30 tooth oval chainring at the front) and I think the second method will be spot on, but what your thoughts ?Cheers
If i use the 1st method (big chain and big cog) and have a medium cage derailleur do i need to add a link or two?
Does all this calculations work for an oval chainring as well?
I just wanted to check if I had already set my chain at the right length. so. I tried method 1 and my chain was bang on.... I tried method 3 and my chain was bang on again. then I tried method 2 and I would need extra chain links added in.
so does the fact I have a long rear derailleur make the difference.
Hi great video and very educational indeed. Question. For method 3.
1. Applicable to Single Speed?
2. Application to Single Speed with OSPW?
I have tried this method and discovered that my chain is too long by 10cm. Any negative effect on my drivetrain is its too long?
I was so impressed that I donated to you on patreon. Find your money here, and there.
Very informative and awesome video. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and techniques to the world.
It all make's sense now thank's Dan
Sorry if this is a dumb question: are these methods also valid for "crank forward" designs? A friend gave me an Electra Townie 700c 21 speed several years ago, and it needs a new chain. Several forums have mentioned that crank forward bikes usually require especially long chains (around 1 1/2 times the length of a traditional design), but so far I haven't found any that get into the particulars of figuring out how long a chain is needed, and of course Electra's website has zero useful information on where to get compatible parts.
Have you covered anything on chain lines? I just changed my bb so I can use a full ultegra group set but now I realized even with my front and rear mech aligned I have some friction and sideward pressure on my chain. I checked to see if the hanger was misaligned and it wasn't that. And the manuals say that you don't need a spacer for a road crankset. Please help!