Why Bullpup's Don't Suck
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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For years the bullpup has been picked on, mocked, slighted, made fun of, etc. but is all that dislike and hatred warranted? Do bullpups really have bad triggers and are they really unfriendly to left handed shooters? Why does the US military avoid bullpups?
#bullpup #aug #x95
Bullpups are a great way to bypass the 16" barrel BS, to get a shorter package, without needing it to be an SBR
Or do an SBR and get stupid short but still decently long barrel?
Regulations only apply if you get caught.
@@danielcurtis1434 True, if you can do that in your state. In my state, an SBR isnt an option, it definitely helps me bypass some of that BS.
You still have to have a minimum 16 inch barrel, and there is still minimum overall length regulations..
Nice now go back and relearn
I loved the AUG in the army. It is very nicely balanced, you can easily sprint with it tucked under one arm, with the other one being free. It is really comfortable to carry.
And the best thing it has absolutely dosghit trigger@@UnleashedDaemon
Nah I will stick to carbine m4a1
Famas was crazy good as well, tried one this summer, really nice
Having a full 16in barrel in a 28 inch ish overall package is a huge advantage.
And that is only advantage what it have...
The SA80 has a 20.4 inch barrel.
And what do you need that advantage for? What problems does it solve?
@@max7971 body armour
@@davewolfy2906Oh please. You can defeat body armor at most combat distances with a 14.5 in M4. Barrel length with 5.56 doesn’t matter unless you’re under 10 inches. Bullpups have other major issues that MAC didn’t really address in the video.
As someone who has always been a bullpup fan: it's nice to see a big channel like yours, spreading the gospel.
you call it gospel... the rest of us call it propaganda...
@@noclass2gun342why do you call it propaganda?
@davidhansen6788 because the bullpup is objectively not as ergonomic or as easy to use as a traditional rifle. And to pretend it is on any level, or worse yet, use a platform as large as Tim's to broadcast to the uneducated masses that its as good as is propaganda... if you like them and think they're cool that's one thing, but that doesn't make them good
@@noclass2gun342 "anything that I disagree with is propaganda"
@ReverendMeat51 it's not a matter of agree or disagree... the ar simply is a more ergonomic and user friendly platform. It manages recoil better. It's manual of arms is simpler for new shooters to learn. It's a superior rifle in every respect save one, and thats OAL
The Marine Corps cringe obsession with marching is such a good point about bull pups lol.
It still doesn’t explain it IMO. The infantry battalions of the Household Division in the British Army must be among the most drilled units in the world and they’ve made it work well enough.
@@rickwalker2 true
Ikr, they could've just use longer barrel or longer stock for march
Great video. I wish more companies would develop the platform. Carbine size and handiness with full length barrel performance...no brainer! Keep 'em coming!
They do, but you don't buy $3,000 guns. You just literally don't. You say you do, you think you do, but the sales numbers are the cold hard facts. Keep enjoying your Palmetto slop.
I second that
I ordered a factory made left handed version Tavor SAR many years ago now. Still have it and still love it. After shooting a couple thousand rounds thru it up till now I have no issue with it being a different manual of arms. Geez how many of us have AR’s and AK’s and don’t have any problems going back and forth between the two? Once you learn it you know it and it becomes familiar to you. Just like everything else in life.
Agreed. I also have an SAR. People who say they are hard to learn are stubborn. The SAR is designed to be faster and erconomically supervisor to an AR, and after I learned the proper way to reload, charge or close the bolt it's easy to become very fast. Both systems are great but I'll always grab my SAR first.
@@BiG__Disgruntled SAR 21? Singapore Assault Rifle-21st Century?
@@williamflowers9435 The SAR21 was the commercial name for civilian TAR21s sold in the US
Well said. I feel like the U.S. Military fears going to a bullpup because the old guys just can't see how anyone could use one of these rifles.
@@markamiller1970
I bet they haven’t given the bullpup enough of a thought to even get to the point of fearing it lol.
Btw my Tavor has been flawless in the couple thousand rounds I have thru it. Not a single issue.
I am sure if you could buy an entry level bullpup for the same price as an entry level AR, they would be much more popular.
Or a bullpup that you could build from a parts catalog.
Well, when the X95 has been on the market for 60+ years like the AR has and the patents expire, maybe you'll see that. Bullpups are priced like any non-AR15.
@jarvy251 The AUG has been around since the 70's and is still expensive.
An RDB is 1050 currently but you can get an AR for like 400 too though
No doubt, PSA will have an in-house bullpup in the next year, lol.
I've always like bullpups. Shorter and more balanced rifle while maintaining the barrel length to give the velocity needed for maximum bullet effectiveness.
most of his arguments here FOR the bullpup are cherry picked nonsense
@@SoloRenegade any attempts on your part to refute his arguments?
@@polygonalfortress yes, i made entire posts on this video. see below for some of them.
a bullpup is tiring one handed same as a standard rifle. some are even HEAVIER than their standard rifle counterparts. I find traditional rifles FAR more comfortable to handle. We worked with teh Brits in Afghanistan, and we played with eachother's rifles. They were envious of our M4s, and we were more than happy to give them their SA80s back and continue with our M4s.
10:40 bullsh!t argument. the mags are essentially a few inches apart, not an issue. either can rotate to reload, either can hold level to reload.
11:40 BS argument again. I ran an M4 with 100% ambi controls (other than forward assist) in Afghnaistan. it was awesome from either hand. and making it so took less than 15min to convert any stock M16 or M4 to this config. Bullpups designed in the same era as the M16/M4 also were not ambidextrous. Being ambi has NOTHING to do with being a "bullpup". newer ARs ALSO come out of the box with full ambi controls. wow, it's like magic!.
12:40 sight radius also applies to many optics as well, beleive it or not, namely 1x magnification red dots.
the one black bullpup you're using is basically an AR15 with teh pistol grip moved forward of the magazine. the ejector port is basically in teh same position relative to your face as an AR15, maybe 2-3 inches to the rear at best. you gain so little for such a clumsy and bulky rifle design.
14:35 same is true for the AR15-style platforms. all the pathetic gripes you have have been resolved. try doing a fair apples to apples comparison next time and judge modern standard rifles against modern bullpups, and old standard rifles against old bullpups. Stop cherry picking.
You also lose stabilization when using a bipod, or when wanting to stretch your nonfiring hand forward. the ergonomics of bullpups suck, they are very uncomfortable to use in my opinion.
SA80 is literally the worst bullpup far worse than the AUG. You probably never handled a VHS2 it completely outperforms M4 in french trials it defeated US weapons and took the 2nd place below HK416. The guys in iraq prefer VHS2 instead of M4. The weight and balance argument is nonsense because the weight is better distributed its actually EASIER to handle and gives better recoil control. The 20 inch barrel gives way more accuracy and higher bullet velocity causes more bullet fragmentation on impact creating more penetration and lethal wounds. An AUG with 22 or 24 inch barrel is a huge difference in performance you can create a DMR in a shortpackage especially when its chambered in 308. Even in 556 some people shoot up to 800 meters with high accuracy.
The controls just depend on training X95 got AR15 fire controls. I've seen people who are trained change clips and closing the bolt just as fast as normal rifles.
I handeled the C7 which is a heavily modernized M16. The length was horrible especially in CQC and dense vegetation. The C8 was slightly better but as not as easy to handle in those situations compared to bullpup.
The VHS2 is a really good rifle it fired 6000 rounds without any stoppages and is highly resistent to debris, mud, dust and water. Ukranians said its a good weapon on par with the bren 2
@@alexanderp8037 many guys I served with own an AUG. I don't like it. the handling is all wrong, and it limits what I can do with it compared to an M4.
I'd never pick a VHS2 over an M4 either.
when the weight is rearward, and both hands are forward, how is the balance fixed? the re are few rifles as balanced as an M4.
Better recoil control? that has little to do with being a bullpup. just pulling anecdotal personal opinions out of your a$$ doesn't make it true. there are few rifle designs with better recoil mitigation than an M4 due to its layout.
I fought overseas and trained stateside with both teh M16 and M4 (both in combat, both in training) and never once had trouble maneuvering in buildings or densely wooded areas. I've lived most of my life in dense forest, so thick you literally can't move through it sometimes. And I still prefer the M4 platform for my personal rifle. I've never had an issue in CQB with an M4, never once came close to not having sufficient space moving through a building. It's all how you do it. if done right, the rifle is never even an issue. And if you think a bullpup is good for CQB, then a handgun is better. and clearly you think shotguns are no good for CQB then too.
"Even in 556 some people shoot up to 800 meters with high accuracy."
yes, the M16 people can hit as far as 1200m with 5.56, and I've hit 500m in Afghanistan with my M4/Eotech with no difficulty at all.
I found after having a stroke (muscle weak that will never return) and a neck injury, I can hold a bullpup rifle for longer periods of time without getting muscle fatigue. My Tavor Sar, x95 and Aug have become my go to rifles. I still have ARs and AKs but if SHTF I would grab a bullpup. Great video.
My least favorite thing about owning a bullpup is people saying I shouldn't enjoy my bullpup 🥴 Don't tell my ARs that my AUG is the favorite
French FAMAS and AUG made tasks such as getting in out of vehicles a lot easier. Had some experiences with them during my time in the Army working with different military forces. Most of the soldiers that I talked to liked their bullpups. The exception was the British SA80 in the early 90s which were hard on magazines etc especially in sandy/dusty middle east/North Africa.
The original SA80 didn't need adverse conditions for the mags; the originals were dogshit. They deformed really easily (just from handling, though resting the weapon on the mag while prone could easily do the something similar), causing feed problems. Few of the problems with the L85A1 are a direct result of it being a bullpup; a lot of it is top-down mismanagement of the project.
In large part, that's why the SA80 wasn't good; it's entirely likely that if that project had resulted in a standard layout rifle, it would have been shitty, too.
The sa80A2 and SA80a3 are absolutely incredible rifles. I've fired 10,000+ rounds without a single stoppage and the accuracy is perfect. At 300 metres, I couldn't imagine anything in the world beating it for accuracy
@@ilikelampshades6 They're *adequate* rifles.
That is, now that the MoD spent more than the original contract should have cost, paying H&K to unfuck them.
The AUG trigger is actually adjustable but does not come preset from the factory you have to do it yourself but nobody knows about it. TnSteyr has a good video on it. Also there's some aftermarket trigger solutions that are pretty sweet now.
Never heard of it either. Where do I adjust it? In the triggepack?
@@TheAustrianAvenger look for the TnSteyr video about adjusting the trigger. It's about 18 minutes. Take your stock off the receiver look at the trigger bar and you'll see there's a nut on it. That's where you adjust it.
sorry but saying that a trigger is bad just means one has weak hands in my opinion
@@theodoreheintz7891 damn, i used an original STG 77 A1 for over 5 years and noone ever told me or my comrades about it...well i guess you never stop learning new things lol
@@jacqirius hahahaha. Tough guy 😂 made me laugh
Ex NZDF, used the Steyr during my time. Drill was fine, that was one of the complants when it was first introduced but drill was quickly modified to suit. SLRs were still used for more formal drill anyway.
The Steyrs we had didnt use the two stage trigger instead used a push through on the safety for your selector. I did witness a guy doing a mag dump into the air after tripping on the range during live fire when forgetting which way was safe and which way was auto.
I was in before optics were so ubiquitous and having an optic even a 2.5 was great for observation, the foregrip could be used as a fair monopod especially prone.
Overall really enjoyed the Steyr and still have fond memories of using it.
Im retired British Army i used the L85 A1 and A2 aswell as HK 416's and M4's in my later years in the Army i loved the L85 it was fantastic in Afghanistan in my opinion be it patrolling on foot or in Vehicles. it is a common misconseption that the L85 jammed like mad but that was not a fault with the rifle it was mainly due to the magazines used, we used American made M4 magazines and the rifle had issues feeding from them one we moved to UK made steel mags the issues went away and we even had a specially designed PMag made by magpul that worked flawlessly in the L85's. having experiance of using different weapon systems in combat they all have there pros and cons and i think its down to training to get the best out of them i am still very happy to take a Bullpup into combat today and would prefer it over the M4 platform mainly due to balancing and length but thats just me its my opinion.
Yes, so many people slag off the SA80 who have never even touched one. I was in the cadets in the 1980s and fired the SLR and the SA80. They couldn't be more different rifles, but I did think the SA80 was a really cool concept. Sure the A1 had many documented issues (that really should never have happened) but the HK updated A2 and A3 are definitely good rifles, and the bullpup config has big advantages in confined environments. Some say that "it's shit cos the SAS don't use it" which is pretty dumb logic. Regular infantry is NOT the SAS, and you're talking about a weapon for an entire army, not just 500 guys in special forces!!
HK made it a completely different rifle. Improved much. The old one made by Brits sucked bad.
Nice overview Tim.
FYI on the Steyr Aug, the ones that use AR stanag magazines can't be configured to left handed, because the polymer shell doesn't have a cut out, only the ones that take the Aug proprietary mags can be reversed to left hand.
That’s interesting. I never thought about it, but now that I am it makes a lot of sense.
Yep, they also lack the bolt release button that was added to the A3s, and only have one trigger linkage bar instead of two, meaning their trigger is slightly worse than the base model.
@@FuzedBoxi have an aug the trigger isnt as bad as people make it out to be. Its not any worse than a standard military trigger
@@tunn3lbutt I have one as well, in standard despite having way too many STANAG mags floating around. The trigger really isn't bad- just long, mushy, and plasticky.
I put a Neu-Trigger sear tab in it and it shortened the take up and cleaned up the break. My friend put the Ratworx 20/20 sear in his and it does the same thing, but has almost no take up.
Nice bit of info, thanks. I've got a MSAR that uses the NATO mags and it works with the left bolt from Rat Worx.
The X95 is my go to rifle for HD and competition. Have AR's and AK's but this is the one I've got set up for grab and go. It's also much easier to travel discreetly with it in a case without having to break it down.
Bullpups definitely have there place and my X95 has ran flawless with thousands of rounds mostly suppressed as a night time thermal gun. I run a MK262 77gr hand load equivalent out of it and never an issue. I would love to see more companies make them and in other calibers like 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39. I also have the Tavor 7 in .308 and it’s the same as X95 just slightly larger but runs just as good.
I would love to see a Tavor 7 tested and certified for the new .277/6.8 cartridge...when and if it ever comes to the civilian world. Or even the 6.8 TVC version, again, if it ever gets out into the wild.
Too bad barrel makers aren't interested in conversions for it.
Thank you for the timely video. Have been considering adding a bullpup to the collection for some time, but had reservations. You have, for the most part, addressed my concerns. Time to pull the plug and purchase one.
Well, they all cost $2k while a good AR cost half as muchm
to be fair that is like comparing electric cars to gas... which tech is older? the new tech almost always costs more because it is not as mainstream. hell most new ammo variants coming out now are in the same boat in that they are still being introduced and so cost alot more. @@bobjohnson1633
one of the arguments against it is "CQB" where the operator has to keep switching hands as he moves from cover to cover and eventually has to place that ejection port close to his face.
IWI Tar 21 had it for years now. Love it. Better trigger gasket for blow back, vortex red dot. I can shred a mandarin orange at 100 yards. I have no AR platform memory (Canadian civillian) so this gun was easy to adapt to for controls and reloads. Short gun so easy to manipulate around in urban and bush enviroments. Thanks Mac good show.
That’s very interesting that your first experience with a fighting rifle is a bullpup, I wonder if you’ll run into the same issues ar users do when transitioning to a different weapon system
I used to like the AUG. Very ergonomic with regards to balance and length. Easy to patrol with. Easy to carry with one hand if the other hand has something else to do.
I used the L1a1 FN for 20yrs before transitioning to the SA80, the training was very good and found it very easy to use .
I'm a huge bullpup fan. Makes so much sense in all the important areas such as control in close quarters (opening doors, vehicles, etc.), weight toward the rear, i like the reload process now, side charging clearing process... its just a more modern (use every inch for a purpose). X95 is great, but Tavor 7 is my favorite.
It’s such an advantage, that anti terror units (who are the only ones who actually care about CQB) don’t use them
@@max7971 yeah, seems like military culture can be stubborn even when better solutions are so clear. I heard one resistance point is formation drills can't be done with a bullpup because it is so short so some old army dudes with medals for best formation performance poo poo rhe bullpup. Lol
I started with x95, added a mdr,then keltec, then hellion, then 9mm x95 and last but not least the 13” sbr x95. I have all the other ar’s but they gather dust bullpups or sbr’s only for me. Great video for beginners
I figured out a way to tune the X95 gas system with interchangeable jets. My X95 works so perfectly now. Over-gassed is a thing of the past! No more gas in the face, and less felt recoil too. I'm thinking of offering it as a service. I need to make a video about it. The gas jet installation should work on the Tavor SAR and Tavor 7 also. Anyone interested?
I bought a Tavor 7 from Copper Custom five weeks ago. Fantastic platform. I'm getting some OTM 175 grainers to try and squeeze more accuracy out of her. Solid with M80 ball standing out to 100 yards. Love my bullpup.
My new Tavor 7 should be arriving tomorrow!
@@W1KAB-9 Great trigger out of the box. You shouldn't be disappointed.
Sounds good! What size of groups are you getting with M80?
@TavorTuner Roughly 3-4 MOA. The Tavor isn't a bench rest target rifle. I was able to keep all shots on an 8 inch target at 200 yards once I was settled in. I'm hoping to get the groups down to 1.5 to 2 MOA with some heavier OTM's. I know it's counter intuitive given the 1/12 twist rate, but other people have gotten better results with higher quality, heavier projo's.
@@jerry7663 Sounds good. I know what you mean. I have an X95 in 5.56. Thanks!
Best video on RUclips in a long long time, congrats🤘In the military we would/ could choose our weapons for every special mission.... As a civilian the bullpup in 308 is the ultimate weapon system. You can use it for long range shooting or urban environments or CQB or hunting or as home defense system.....
I've had the Tavor TAR 21 for years now. I can't tell you the last time I've used my M4. At least 3 years.
After getting a tavor, my AR sat gathering dust in the safe for a whole year before I finally sold it.
Thanks for the great video. One issue, that's really important to me, is to be to fire the rifle from both shoulders. More specifically, I don't mean to adjust for left or right-handed use, but to be able to switch shoulders on the fly based on situation. It takes a little training, but it's a huge advantage when working from behind cover or when stalking game and picking shoulder based on the conditions for the next shot. To me, that means all the controls need to be mirrored as well as the ejection not going sideways. The only rifles that come to mind, that'll do that, is first of all the Desert Tech MDR as well as to some extend the FN F2000 and Keltec RDC / RFB. Given that 308 / 6.5 Creedmoor will cleanly take down any game walking around in Europe and the controls / ejection is absolutely ingenious, the MDR is my choice. Mine is 16" in 308 and I absolutely love it.
This is really important to me too. I only knew about the RFB - thank you for mentioning the others. I now have some research to do.
I have pullpups purely for utility. I love hunting with them and love having them when patroling. They also store better when working on projects in rural areas. They are very easy to carry in most vehicles. I am surprised more people do not use them.
The FN FS2000 is an excellent vehicle rifle due to the forward ejection that just drops the brass so it is not thrown violently and bouncing around the inside of the cab.
doesn't need to be so complicated though, look at the simplicity of the keltec RDB.
I love mine and baby it.
Adjustable Length of Pull is a feature missing on most Bulpups, that I am aware of. One major advantage of the AR15/M4 platform is the ability to move the stock for a better or more comfortable position.
The Hellion (aka VHS) shown in this video has an adjustable length of pull.
fair enough. I did say Most, not all. The Hellion is the only one that I know of that does. Personally, I always loved the Bulpup design. I would love to have a Tavor and a FN FS2000. @@Militaryarmschannel
Length of pull is inherently long for bullpups due to the mechanism. I don't understand why the VHS-2 has adjustment to make it even longer. I would have preferred no adjustment and following the keep it simple stupid rule.
The most underrated bullpup in my opinion is the keltec rdb, no one on RUclips ever brings it up, but in my opinion, especially when factoring in price, it is one of the best options out there. I have had one for 4 or 5 years now and it has always been reliable and accurate, the downward ejection eliminates the issue of right and left handed shooting issues and it is a fairly simple rifle to field strip. It also has a pretty decent trigger out of the box.
Tim, love this advocacy for the bullpup!! I was in the Singapore Armed Forces who completely phased out the M16 toward the bullpup SAR 21. The next gen bullpup BR18 is currently in development. Interesting to see such a large scale bullpup adoption against the tide of conventional M4 designs.
most of his arguments here FOR the bullpup are cherry picked nonsense. most of his claims are not specific to the bullpup at all.
@@SoloRenegadefound the fudd
@@jaxfernandez3684 not in the slightest. read and learn.
a bullpup is tiring one handed same as a standard rifle. some are even HEAVIER than their standard rifle counterparts. I find traditional rifles FAR more comfortable to handle. We worked with teh Brits in Afghanistan, and we played with eachother's rifles. They were envious of our M4s, and we were more than happy to give them their SA80s back and continue with our M4s.
10:40 bullsh!t argument. the mags are essentially a few inches apart, not an issue. either can rotate to reload, either can hold level to reload.
11:40 BS argument again. I ran an M4 with 100% ambi controls (other than forward assist) in Afghnaistan. it was awesome from either hand. and making it so took less than 15min to convert any stock M16 or M4 to this config. Bullpups designed in the same era as the M16/M4 also were not ambidextrous. Being ambi has NOTHING to do with being a "bullpup". newer ARs ALSO come out of the box with full ambi controls. wow, it's like magic!.
12:40 sight radius also applies to many optics as well, beleive it or not, namely 1x magnification red dots.
the one black bullpup you're using is basically an AR15 with teh pistol grip moved forward of the magazine. the ejector port is basically in teh same position relative to your face as an AR15, maybe 2-3 inches to the rear at best. you gain so little for such a clumsy and bulky rifle design.
14:35 same is true for the AR15-style platforms. all the pathetic gripes you have have been resolved. try doing a fair apples to apples comparison next time and judge modern standard rifles against modern bullpups, and old standard rifles against old bullpups. Stop cherry picking.
You also lose stabilization when using a bipod, or when wanting to stretch your nonfiring hand forward. the ergonomics of bullpups suck, they are very uncomfortable to use in my opinion.
@@SoloRenegadethis is funny, just above this comment is a comment of a brit talking about how much he loved the SA80 when he served. Also it looks really cool copy pasting your argument as a reply to every comment. Is this what american vets do in their free time after giving their bodies to big oil and killing 14th century goat herders for 20 years and still losing the war?
@@FateBringsMe2U So, what is the current battle rifle of the British today? Is it the SA80?
What is the current battle rifle of most militaries in the world? An M16/M4 or knockoff.
If the SA80 is so great, why was it so much heavier than the M4 yet couldn't do anything extra to justify the weight? If it's so great then why doesn't anyone use it like they do the M4 or variants of the AR15?
The SA80 was heavy, about as heavy as our M-249 SAW, and uncomfortable to handle.
Just because some Brits liked the only weapon they really knew and were comfortable with, doesn't make it a good weapon. Unlike the Brits, US soldiers OWNED their own guns at home such as the FN2000, Streyr AUG, M4, AK-47, etc. and so we were able to compare these weapons all the time when not on deployment. Brits don't have the luxury of getting such exposure to other weapons on a regular basis.
Interesting video. I deal with arthritic shoulders so I picked up a Steyr AUG to shift the weight close to my body. What a difference. Still enjoy other platforms, but a bullpup is more of what I need.
On the 25th of April 1951 the British army officially adopted the EM-2 Bullpup design as its official weapon.
It was later un-adopted due to using an intermediate round which was rejected by the U.S. when NATO moved to its system of commonality of rounds for its member states.
The EM-2 predates the Steyr AUG by over 25 years.
What a coincidence!! I'm about to take my X95 to the range! My gripe about the ejection is that while I normally shoot right-handed, there may be times when going to my left shoulder may be desirable, and the 'case deflector' is a joke. The first time I shot it lefty, brass cut my chin, even though I tried to position my face well back from the port. I don't have a problem flicking the safety with the knuckles of my left trigger finger, either. Sight radius with the back ups is actually about the same as the AR carbine's., though I normally run a Primary Arms 3x microprism.
Overall, a good, thoughtful video--thanks!
I used the SA80 (L85A1 and L85A2) from 1988-99. Despite its initial problems, I shot about the same as when I previously used the SLR (L1A1) when using iron sights, but the SUSAT was a great improvement. The trigger was the worst aspect - more creep than a sniper in a ghillie suit. A few points: the SA80 was offered as an ambidextrous rifle but the MOD refused the option; it was always designated as the L85, but came in 2 upgrades to the initial L85A1, ie A2 and A3.
as an ex Australian infantry soldier ..the F88 AUG was great rifle .. some hated it ..but as the years past they fixed the main issues .. the one thing that got me was knocking the safety into fire, when slinging the rifle ..some times it happened ..
I remember that as it's biggest flaw too; think it was a byproduct of it originally being an Austrian design (& operation of the weapon in heavy winter gloves being a core requirement.)
@@lachlanbowden1323 absolutely..
I love the bullpup design, but the biggest hurdle for most is the pricetag...
And low amount of gun mods,sometimes trigger and ergonomics.
Bullpups are my jam. As a leftie, my Tavor 7 is my favorite 'long' gun. Great overview!
Working at Glock and having dealt with a decent amount of Austrians who were issued the AUG, I’ve never met any Austrian that called it the A. U. G. All have just called it the Aug just like us.
The majority still calls it the "Stg 77" or "77er" for short. Soldiers and police officers alike.
never heard anyone call it the "Aug" in german, it's abreviation after all
I've been considering a bullpup for a while, and didn't know that they came in 308. You definitely covered my concerns about the platform. Great stuff! Thanks!
KM M17s, Tavor 7, RFB, MDR all have have 308 models.
The controls are what get me. That said, I think Keltec’s solution for magazine changes on the RDB makes it a non issue. Unfortunately Keltec doesn’t build them to be as robust as the others. If they did it would be the clear winner.
I Made My Rifle Left Hand Friendly By Adding Ambidextrous Controls To It.
My AR-15 Has The Following Ambidextrous Controls:
1) Geisssele Charging Handle.
2) Timber Creek Safety Selector.
3) Troy Magazine Release.
4) Phase 5 Bolt Release.
Hey Tim.
I still have my Tavor SAR (which I purchased thru Copper Custom thank you very much) and with many after market add on's pretty much have it where I want it. Add on's include 1: 2" Savvy Sniper Sling (say that 3 times fast) 2: A Podium TAR Z1 under grip Bipod (which works amazingly well) 3: MI foregrip extension and under barrel light kit -w- left side switch (which is to large and I want to switch out for something smaller of to one side so that I can switch out the A2 Birdcage with a better flash sup. and the ability to use my can on it). 4: an MI upper rail which extends the height and length along with Magpul M-Bus sights front and rear which co-witness perfectly with my Aimpoint PRO and Vortex VMX-3T magnifier. 5: Super Sabra trigger system. plus a few other things I have forgotten about probably and after many thousands of rounds (of which it does not like the 223 ammunition and really only really starts to shine with 556 62 grain and above ammunition).
In closing....I LOVE THE FARG'N THING but,would also love to get the X95 asd it solves so many short comings of the Tavor SAR. Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. ;)
I prefer the SAR over the x95
I love my Tavor 7 . Great all around battle/hunting rifle!
Bullpups just make so much sense, especially in the US market, where it seems like an obsession to get the rifle as small as possible. You get your short rifle and the "BIGGER BETTER MORE" that sells so well in the US, with the longer barrel.
I love the idea of a bullpup, and they've come a long way in the issues you mentioned. So aside from training a different manual of arms the biggest 2 things I see against bullpups are:
1- interoperability (which could be solved if whole groups adopt them and they become more common in an AR dominated market...assuming they have a standardized baseline for parts similar to a "mil spec" AR).
2-the rail length can leave you cramped for space if you need to add things like lights, lasers, IR, NV/thermal mounts etc and still have room for a grip and manipulating them (which could arguably be solved by just going with a longer barrel to get that extra rail space and have the side effect of *shocker* better velocity for a 5.56) so its kind of an argument FOR bullpups
The SA VHS II is an outstanding weapon.
Excellent in most every way.
I'd love to see a video more focused on the evolution of the bullpup and specific fixes made to the design to make it as good or better than a conventional rifle design.
If you look at forgotten weapons on the sa80 series and evolution and original issues, it will pretty much sum up the progression for you.
The compactness is worth the tradeoffs IMO; my Hellion with a 16” barrel and Turbo K is the same size as my 10.5” SCAR 16 with an RC2 on it. You get way better ballistics out a package essentially the same size.
I love my Tavor SAR and Tavor 7. While I have other rifles, those are my go to rifles.
The 7 shoots like a dream suppressed. I can't imagine going back to order style rifles.
Left handed bull-pup enthusiast here. I have several including a modernized AUG switched to left handed.
Despite the limitations of the AUG, I really like that rifle. Very smooth shooting.
My lady loves it, and has laid claim to it.
I find that bullpups, are very good rifles for females. The weight balance works better for them. This also applies to new shooters as well. That tendency to lean backwards in an effort to counterbalance the weight of the rifle is reduced due to the rear weight bias of the bullpup design.
I also picked up one of those VHS2 bullpups, and I do like that one a good bit as well. Though the AUG feels more refined while firing.
The AUG trigger in new production trigger packs are not too bad considering. Though, the NATO stock version trigger is significantly worse, the single trigger bar makes the forces unbalanced, and you can feel some binding.
The new reduced weight springs available from Steyr work well, and the 3rd party replacement aluminum sear is also nice. Don’t use both of them in a standard AUG, significantly reduced drop safety from my testing. The combination isn’t as bad in the NATO stock, due to the already heavier trigger.
I love bullpups. The only disadvantages I have with them are difficulty making long shots from poorly supported positions because the muzzle moves more with a rear center of gravity. You really have to brace hard to get stable in a bad position. The other issue is the work area for the magazine reload can interfere with a chest rig/tactical belly. I do appreciate how many I can fit into a single case on a range trip. Something to be weary of is buying the latest and newest bullpup tech. I have had to send both my bolt action and semi Desert Techs back to the factory to repair manufacturing defects
I have seen photos of PS90s thermally disassembling near the person's face but it was always due to removing the thin enamel layer off reloaded 5.7x28 brass and having a case head separation at peak pressure when the case shoulder was supposed to bump out at peak pressure (sort of like a nagant revolver case maintaining a gas seal).
I have never gotten an opportunity to shoot a bullpup, but I have always thought the advantages in a modern one very much outweigh any disadvantages. My next rifle will likely be a bullpup.
One issue that wasn't addressed is switching from one shoulder to the other during an engagement. Although a right hander would have no trouble shooting a bullpup set up for right-hand ejection from the right shoulder, he or she would get brass in the face when switching to firing from the left shoulder. The FS2000 provided the best solution for this problem in my opinion at the cost of added complexity. As for bullpups in military adoption, none seem to address this issue. The HS product bullpup uses an excessively long length of pull to attempt to address this issue, but that kind of defeats some of the advantages of the bullpup. Some suggest holding the rifle off the shoulder when shooting from the "off" or "weak" side, but this reduces accuracy obviously.
The UK are ditching the L85 incrementally. UKSF never used it.
Marine Commandos have used the Colt for a while and now both the Commandos and new Ranger regiment will get the Knights KS-1.
This will likely be followed by the other regiments.
L85 will stay with logistics core and territorial forces after that.
I had thought they were sitting on the fence to see where the new US cartridge went. But 5.56 is showing itself plenty capable against “near pears”. Plus 7.62 does the job when needing something heavier. Like the LMT DMR.
Basically because 556 in an AR gun is cheap.
That's it.
Although thankfully they are not adopting carbines, which is dumb.
Also I bet America will walk back the M5 too.
Turns out there never was any pure Stallinium or Chinesium body armour to deal with
Although they do need to solve their carbine problem as the M4 was a serious liability.
Mine are these. I like them for large building security that has a few large open spaces.
Kel-Tec RDB
Panzer BP12
With the ATF bunting, the pistol brace rule into the grand stand. I think maybe the Bullpups will get a little more attention in the civilian world. Military as far as boot camp your right Tim manual of arms will be very difficult without the use of a full size traditional rifle.
Or the US could just alter the drill a bit just like the Brits did. Mind you they've been doing it for a lot longer than America has been and they're even more bent on keeping traditions than the US, but still they made it work. The US not willing to work on this is just arrogant indifference
Rest the magazine in the prone. Gets you low and makes a stable platform especially with a bullpup. The likelihood that resting the mag might get a malfunction/jam is remote.
Loads of good reason to shoot a bullpup. Great content again, thank you.
If you had to use a FAMAS everyday- you'd switch to a conventional platform, too.
Switching to your baguette is faster than reloading.
Solid Snake used one in Shadow Moses island....
He was an extraordinary soldier!
Honestly except for the ammo issue (cannot take normal NATO brass ammo), the gun is fine. The main problem is that MAS closed its last factory in 2002. The adoption of the HK416 is just a marriage of political convenience, since one of the competitors, the bullpup VHS rifle is just as capable as the HK416 but doesn't have the benefit of being Germany
I love my VHS, I need more training with it but, I freaking love it
I think the bull pup comes into its own into ways. It gives you a 16” barrel in a short CQ package but it really comes into its own in .308. You can get a 20 inch sniper rifle that is shorter than a 16 inch AR but the balance to the rear is much better for shooting. For me the perfect battle rifle is an 18 inch pool pump in 308 Winchester.
Ever seen any sass bulpubs? Yeah me neither.
I'm having a great time with my MDRX. Glad to see more channels explaining just how many advantages thee bullpup has.
One has to look at today's AUG.. with the upgrades available for it. And don't forget, it is designed to work in extreme cold alpine weather.
Greetings from Austria 🇦🇹 😀
Update 2024: just picked up the latest version of the AUG which comes with a handguard and 2-level top rail, deflector. Added the latest Elcan 1-4 Spectre and..an extra barrel in. 300 blackout 😊
Got 4 shot group into 1cm² at 50m, fired in less than 2 seconds.
We are very fortunate that Steyr USA is importing aftermarket upgrades from Austrian companies in recent years.
Austria. Your favorite politician of all time has me discount your country forever.
THANKS. Very interesting post. Much appreciated.
Glad you enjoyed it
I do feel the current selections of bull pups feel primed for new next generation. The bufferless ARs and chassis for those fix a major issue for most bullpups these days. Their weight. Now those aren't perfect and not ready to replace these. But I feel we will soon see that next generation of bullpups come in with the modularity of ARs and lower weight overall. Senex Arms, FM-15s and a few more are just on their first generation but if they can make them even more reliable over time, bullpups will start becoming a preference rather than a choice.
I could seriously see the MCX upper with a front charger like the FM-15, being a hugely popular bullpup with the reaper bullpup chassis.
I've always been a fan of the Kraut Space magic rifle since the first time I saw it MANY MANY moons ago.
Huh?! But they DO suck. Most militaries can't wait to replace 'em 🤥😑
8:20 “this becomes awkward”
My left handed buddy just actioned it like an opposite AK.
"Just a space for m&m's and crayons"? Sir i do not know how you think the marines can fight without crayons! Ooh-rah!
In the 1980s all NATO rifles required a 20 inch barrel to make the new standard rounds to work as advertised. The length of the rifle was a real issue. One only needs to refer to the criticisms of the M16 being too long to wield inside vehicles. That was enough for the US to adopt the M4. Which was criticised in Afghanistan for lacking the necessary punch at longer ranges. Thus the M855A1 development to work out of a shorter barrel. It will be interesting to see if bullpups once again come into fashion once suppressors become more widespread and once again the length of the rifle becomes an issue.
I've got dozens of rifles. I've grown up around guns and this video made me think... why haven't I ever thought about a bullpen? I have absolutely nothing against them and found this enlightening. I've seriously just never really thought about them. Maybe I should consider them more. Thanks for the video sir. God Bless
The Steyr AUG A1 (STG77) will alway be the greatest and sexiest rifle of all time and no one can change my mind about that.
Donut of Death forever!
The only reason why I own AR's over bull pumps is because, CMMG 22 conversion kit. I'm not rich I can't afford to shoot 556 every time I go to the range but training with 22 conversion kit is awesome.
Bullpups are perfect for home defense. You can run down a hallway with it without fouling the doorways or furniture. You can also use it one handed easily, leaving the other hand free for opening doors.
Iwi got it right with the tavor and x95...still love my tavor and would love an x95 someday.
Big fan of bull pups too! My Tavor TAR-21 feels just as natural to me as any other rifle. Time and training on the weapon is all it takes
Hello,
First of all: I'm Austrian and was in the army so I know the AUG (or so called StG77 in the army which means "SturmGewehr77").
Gently pull the trigger - then the Stg77 is an incredibly accurate weapon.
In the army we shoot up to 300m and I hit everything and my comrades only missed a little.
The operational area is 200m-250m though and you can hit everything with the built-in optics. (we didn't have Picadilly rails or anything like that - just the standard optics from Steyr)
Of course, the STG77 trigger requires a bit of practice at the beginning, as you can fire single shots and then continuous fire when you pull the trigger all the way through) but you are encouraged to fire in bursts (as 3-4 shots - when the enemy is clearly moving - otherwise the first shot is usually fatal anyway.
So pull the trigger gently and you are fine - there isno need to tune the trigger.
7:50 Not quite:
SA80 = Small Arms for 1980
L85 = The soldier's Individual Weapon
L85A2 = The version we fixed.
L85A3 = What you showed in the photo
L86 = the SAW
L22 = 12" barrel carbine
L98 = Cadet rifle
My 16” AUG is shorter than my friend’s 11.5 sbr it’s great I get all the benefits with only minor negatives that training will fix
The one place we’re bullpups do have a significant drawback is rail space. Hard to fit a lpvo and a ir device on such a short package and still have room for your hand.
What you said about the manual of arms during parades and drills, while I’ve never thought of that before, and that insight is interesting, if true, would be the dumbest reason to not switch over. Progress should not be limited by tradition.
It's also why the M4 has the 141/2 barrel. With a carbine gas system It's the length needed to properly mount existing bayonets.
Thanks for the memories of parade rest, in the heat, for hours. Ughhh.
Literally just sent my Aug in because it just so happened to be a part of a bad batch that were very prone to cracking the stock/chassis. Not bulpup related, but I also sent in a stery bolt gun because the stock cracked (from being leaned up against the truck and it slid down to the ground) broke the stock right at the bolt and trigger. Way bigger than the cracks in the Aug, but the Aug cracked from just shooting. Hopefully the new one they send in will be alright cause it’s pretty fun
While working on the OICW in the 90's, our PM gathered data on small arms designs from NATO allies. (HK was the ATK partner at the time) One issue related to flinch. The Brits had a problem with troops in prone firing in sandy areas. Gas escaping from the rear action blew dust into troops' eyes causing them to flinch. This must have been fixed, or dealt with in training but it put the design team off considering a bullpup design. Of course, HK had their own ideas for the lower (5.56) portion of the modular weapon system. As an aside, the weapon had a ballistic computer and LRF embedded in the sight to provide hold cues.
Like it. Don't have one. Great show as always!!!
Michael Herrell
im shooting a Steyr aug a1 since 15 years and still very happy with it.
As Ex UK Military, i used to teach Basic Weapons training to Basic Recruits, there was never a problem with "Lefties " Shooting the L85 (SA80). The recruits were just taught too shoot Right handed, everyone was the same they just learnt. In fact, if they were given a rifle that could be fired left-handed, they would still shoot right-handed, it's muscle memory. It's the same L/R eye dominant they would just get used to it and basically train the right eye to be dominant.
Love my pups!
But you are right, there is training and manual of arms you need to accommodate yourself to operate efficiently.
Once my friends got used to it, they like them too.
Thanks for the video Tim.
Totally agree!
After handling a bullpup, I can tell you that it is extremely well-balanced. It is the only rifle I can fire one-handed.
- The catch with Bullpups is a number of issues, and that is the fact that AR-15 and AK platforms are way more commonplace and cheaper to get.
- Guns like the RDB even try to address the issues with ambidextrous shooters to ensure the casings don't hit you.
- I agree, MAC, that I have never seen a Bullpup blow up in your face. IWI had a story where a soldier loaded a Blackout round (which 99% of the people would tell you NOT to do) into the chamber, resulting in a failure that didn't hurt the shooter. The explosion was designed to vent away from you (the Tavor is built like a tank, anyway).
- Many of the bullpups are based on military equipment that are designed to be extremely robust, reliable, and have long service lives. For them, they are expensive, but you get your money's worth out of them.
In terms of manual of arms for the M16A2 and M16/M4 we used in the Hellenic Raider Brigades the unit was usually mixed with both configurations some had grenade launchers and others the FN Minimi so during the process those with the M16/A2 configuration were the only ones keeping the traditional Order Arms stance while the rest used the Port Arms stance during the same order. Part of the reason only the M16A2 configuration was used for ''Ceremonial'' activities.
Now the military is preparing to switch into a modern AR Platform even for the Mobile Infantry wich still used the G3A3 configuration although nothing's certain about the caliber due to 5.56x45 reaching the end of its lifespan because of newer inventions such as the 6.5 Grendel etc. and modern battlefield requirements especially in terms of Armour Piercing capabilities. The 7.62x51 however still holds up well.
During the research of the last 5 years regarding adoption of a new platform the Israeli Tavor Bullpup configuration was one of the candidates yet it has been abandoned as an option due to some of its ergonomic cons in the prone position and bulk of the design compared to the AR Platform especially regarding the use of Optical Accesories such as Thermal or dedicated Night Vision Scopes including Grenade Launchers which are a vital tool in some units.
Myself i completely agree with all that but i've found a usage for the Bullpup configuration that i prefer and thats Close Quarter Urban Environment and narrow spaces due to the high maneuvarability and faster transtitions from cover to shooting position (Room to Room) so i would definitely prefer it on a Shotgun for Defensive purposes compared to the more traditional designs which are painfull to maneuver. The reason as to why the Shotgun is mostly its ''Suppresive Capability'' against a target and reliability with Buckshot configurations in terms of succesfullness of close distance moving target elimination (its easier ''better chances'' to acquire your target within your Shot placement).
The drawbacks with such a Shotgun and generally Shotguns are obviously the noise requiring good ear protection in an emergency which comes with the downside of loosing Situational awareness inside a building for example minizing your ability to listen to possible noise from the next room.
Maybe that can be countered by lowering the caliber of the firearm (going from a 12gauge to a 20 or a 410) considering we dont expect to deal with ''Armoured Targets'' This can also help in terms of magazine capacity with the downside that now the Shotgun is not the best option for outdoor activity as a Survival Firearm (bringing food to the table) unless the issue of buying more expensive and less available ammunition that is strong enough is not a problem however none of that is as reliable so a .410 especially would require you to reload your own with at least 180grain 10mm FMJ shotshells to maintain ''General Survival Ammunition Stock'' that is capabale for various scenarios including fighting an aggresor.
That can be a problem or not depending on many factors and what overall situation the person is expecting to deal with. Another problem with the configuration is also that it cant be Semi Auto as a 12gauge if the person is expecting to reliably hit ''Aggresors'' past 25 yards just like he would do with an AR (meaning 2-3 follow up shot placement on a human sized target resulting in all shots being placed at the torso) which i found the most difficult with Semi Auto 12 gauge Shotguns. Now if its a pump action like the Kel Tec KSG its another story but that also increases the ''Skill'' required so i would say that suits people more experienced with Pump Action Shotguns which is something i myself lack.
And the final issue in Urban Settings someone might have to consider depending on the situation is the overall noise suppresion capability which is possible with the 5.56x45 or the .300blk but impossible for any Shotgun and thus you sacrifice concealment meaning anyone in a nearby building or street will detect your position.
So i don't know. PCCs could be better suited for Bullpups for the same purpose i guess then if not a shotgun why not just a 5.56x45? Overall i think the bullpup is a good firearm configuration if an Urban Setting and CQB is the priority but not the best choice for Infantry.
In Malaysia we went from the SLR to the HK 33 to the M16 to the AUG to the M4
I think they make a lot of sense. The X95 is probably the best one out there. It's way over gassed and generally sucks with a suppressor. Add an adjustable gas system, put a slightly heavier barrel to help with accuracy and heat mitigation, add an extended brass deflector with one of better trigger packs, and it's probably a good all around rifle for military or civilians. I've been trying to get one since they came to the US and Geissele made a trigger pack for them.
The semi automatic rifle i ever bought was a ruger mini 30 bullpup conversion for $300. I loved that gun.
I have several bullpups the only complaint would be clearing out a jammed round vs a standard AR style rifle. That being said pulling the barrel out to clear a jam on the Styer is just a gangster move lol!
That 20” vhs 2 sure is a good looking piece.