For more on Two Kingdoms theology check out Doug's book, "Empires of Dirt: Secularism, Radical Islam, and the Mere Christendom Alternative" canonpress.com/products/empires-of-dirt-secularism-radical-islam-and-the-mere-christendom-alternative/
This is my question that is being read and responded to. Thank you! The point that the theology is "peculiarly" subservient to the American doctrine of separation of church and state is enormously helpful and struck a chord. As a long-time San Francisco resident the Escondido theology is appealing because the fight for any kind of Christ inspired civil sphere seems impossible and Two Kingdoms offers a peaceful sidestep of the conflict. I will read Empires of Dirt as well as the John Frame (love him) text another comment referenced for further guidance.
We have to upvote this so we can see Confessional Lutheranism vs. CREC Reformed! I’m really encouraged to see Dr. Cooper is watching/is aware of Wilson! I love your content Dr. Cooper and there’s many of us within the CREC that have appreciated your teaching on Lutheran dogmatics!
I consider myself a more two kingdoms type, but appreciate Doug Wilson's ministry as well. But it seems Westminister California likes to lecture conservatives like me to keep my politics separate from the church, but they in turn have no problem pushing a more left wing political agenda in the church like social justice, and cultural marxism, etc. Their close association with the Gospel Coalition and some of their writings seems to prove this. So like all leftists or left leaning types, they like to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
Yes this is a debate I have with my self as we move to a more and more wicked society: I am thinking along the lines of pedophilia and how Christians are to engage it on a civil front. I am sure churches will say it's not Christian's battles to fight.
It seems Christ is reconciling a Spiritual & Physical kingdom, in which we are in & should be transforming for His glory, not hide in the wilderness. God gives us determined places to live & vocation from which we participate & partake of His divine nature
@@leepretorius4869 I agree, & the problem is most people or many Protestants are stuck in a premil dispensational view of scripture esp eschatology where the body of Christ fails & needs to be rescued in a pretrib rapture, when an Amill or Postmill views more positive, Christ is reigning, He started His church formed by the Holy Spirit, that has continued to grow & help change the world. The magnitude of what Christ accomplished by His death, burial & resurrection, gets overlooked or missed & too many make scripture about or to them in the 21st cent, grace & peace
@@J-PLeigh8409 in one of these talks they show a timeline which says after Jesus the church spent 3.5 years evangelising Jews, then Stephen was martyred and then Paul converted to go to the nations. Have you ever heard this before? Where is it from? A book?
@@leepretorius4869 if referring to books outside of scripture then Im not sure but Jews being converted, the martyr of Stephen & Paul bringing the gospel to the Gentiles, is all in the book of Acts
Not even the secularists believe in the Two Kingdom thesis, if “kingdom” is to be understood in its proper meaning as a large measure of sovereignty. The secular kingdom deigns to claim authority over the Christian kingdom by default. That makes the Christian kingdom not a kingdom at all in their eyes.
Would you put Islam into a one kingdom theology. Religious/worship is enforced on the areas they control. It is a Theocracy vs Democracy or constitutional republic. What Roman catholicism was prior to the reformation. My question is the churches although not all moved way left into liberalism where the scriptures are no longer held as truth and the moral condition is well….followed suit. Who would be in charge the Roman Catholics Eastern Orthodox Islam Lutheran anglican Baptist Mormons JWs Seventh Day Adventist Orthodox Jews? These things can keep one awake at night. I walk, I pray and I trust Him.He’s still on the throne.
I would love to know if Doug Wilson rejects Augustine's basic premise in the "City of God" that there are two kingdoms: The City of Man and the City of God?
"...the Father has... translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love...". From what kingdom has He translated us? We had to come from another kingdom to be translated into Christ's kingdom. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight..." He also says that: "...the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me." Since Satan is the prince of this world, as Jesus says, he must be the head of a kingdom or at very least a principality otherwise, he would not be, by definition, a prince. Satan is also "the god of this world" as per the apostle Paul. My quibble with Doug et al is that we have very different understandings of what "this world" is. I am "not of this world" as He is "not of this world". He has sent me into "this world". I am "sanctified" (separated) from "this world" and operate as an "ambassador" from a kingdom which is foreign to "this world". My whole ambassadorial role is to "see what the Father is doing" and work for Him as He "translates" more from "this world" into "the kingdom of the Son of His love."
I think of it as Jesus’s kingdom does not originate in this world. That doesn’t mean that it is not established here on this earth. All the nations will flow to the City of God. I’m still trying to understand this though.
John 17:15-19 My prayer is not that You take them out of the world but that You protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world even as Im not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. We are supposed to be in this world but not of it, our minds set on things above, but the earth, God has given to the sons of men, so in the New Covenant Age were transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit & we help transform the world for the glory of our great God & Savior Jesus Christ, as love & grace abounds in our lives
@@Audreygraceswank, I too await the establishment of His kingdom upon this earth. I believe that there will be a literal millennial kingdom established upon this earth. The amillennialist and the postmillennialist do not believe this. Notice that I say "earth" rather than "world" as I do not always see them as synonyms. The meanings are contextually governed. Mostly, I see the "earth" as the physical planet and the "world" as the system of government that remains in opposition to Him kingdom until His return in Revelation 19.
@@J-PLeigh8409, That is where we differ. I do not see the "world" as redeemable. My ambassadorial role causes me to advocate for a kingdom that is "not of this world" and as such I seek to present the glad tidings of that other than worldly kingdom to "...as many as the Lord our God may call." It is interesting that the Lord in His pray in John 17 explicitly says: "I do not pray for the world". The world is under judgment. The verdict is in and it awaits the execution of that judgment physically in the great tribulation and ultimately spiritually at the Great White Throne.
@@Saratogan the Great Tribulation already occurred to "that" generation to which Christ was speaking it would come upon in the Olivet Discourse, as well as our King has bound the strong man satan. An literal millennial kingdom as in premil dispensationalism has so many holes, & is a house of cards, the entire doctrine or interpretative system falls apart when scripture is exegeted, the doctrine was formed before texts were evaluated. You might hold to different views & Im not trying to be rude but actually enjoy the discussion w/ fellow believers. I just hold to that which Christ accomplished was so much more than we grasp & He set up His church & continually by the Holy Spirit, to be triumphant, the body of Christ grows not shrinks then needs another rescue in a pretrib rapture. He is synagogue His people & will return but we live peaceful, gracious, charitable, God fearing lives for His glory, as an example & a light to the world, grace & peace
Most alleged pronomians* opposed to the Escondido two-kingdom hypothesis are themselves promoters of a two-kingdom theology, promoting obedience to secular government (e.g. to the biblically egregious Constitutional Republic) rather than a biblical replacement of the same, per Matthew 6:10 & 33, Romans 12:21, Romans 13:1-7, 1 Corinthians 6:1-6, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6, 1 Peter 2:13-14, etc.** There are two kingdoms, period: biblical and secular. To claim anything else is to be as double-minded as were the Israelites on Mt. Carmel with Elijah. Why halt ye between two opinions? If We the People (a contemporary form of Baal***) be God, serve them. If Yahweh be God, serve Him! Worse, it's idolatry! Idolatry is not so much about statues as it is statutes, such as what one considers the supreme law of the land. There can only be one supreme law: 1) The biblically seditious Constitution,**** or 2) Yahweh's triune and integral moral law, per the Bible. Thus to swear to or to promote obedience to both biblical law and secular law is to be a two kingdom advocate. *To reject any one the three components of Yahweh's triune moral law (the Ten Commandments and their respective statutes and judgments) is to be 2/3rds pronomian. Many alleged pronomians reject the civil judgments as mandatory under the New Covenant and are therefore 2/3rds pronomians, which means they're neither pronomians nor biblical dominionists. Whoever metes out the civil judgments ultimately controls dominion. **See free online book "The Romans 13 Template for Biblical Dominion: Ten Reasons Why Romans 13 is Not About Secular Government" at Bible versus Constitution dot org. Go to our Online Books page and scroll down to title. ***See blog article "Could You Be a Disciple of Baal and Not Know It?" Search title on our Blog. ****See free online book "Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective," in which every Article and Amendment is *examined* by the Bible, at Bible versus Constitution dot org. Click on the top entry on our Online Books page.
I'd be an 'agree to disagree'-r on this one (also note I am a pragmatic Libertarian/Classical Liberal); but David VanDrunen has some great and capable things to say about how the case could be made looking a scripture as a whole [and considering the historic church's mindset on these matters]. Watch him here on the Theocast Podcast Video: ruclips.net/video/FhbX-Pvm7tE/видео.html ~ it's where I'll ever lean, I suppose.
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For more on Two Kingdoms theology check out Doug's book, "Empires of Dirt: Secularism, Radical Islam, and the Mere Christendom Alternative"
canonpress.com/products/empires-of-dirt-secularism-radical-islam-and-the-mere-christendom-alternative/
This is my question that is being read and responded to. Thank you! The point that the theology is "peculiarly" subservient to the American doctrine of separation of church and state is enormously helpful and struck a chord. As a long-time San Francisco resident the Escondido theology is appealing because the fight for any kind of Christ inspired civil sphere seems impossible and Two Kingdoms offers a peaceful sidestep of the conflict. I will read Empires of Dirt as well as the John Frame (love him) text another comment referenced for further guidance.
I love Two Kingodms theology.
We have to upvote this so we can see Confessional Lutheranism vs. CREC Reformed!
I’m really encouraged to see Dr. Cooper is watching/is aware of Wilson! I love your content Dr. Cooper and there’s many of us within the CREC that have appreciated your teaching on Lutheran dogmatics!
What exactly is it?
I consider myself a more two kingdoms type, but appreciate Doug Wilson's ministry as well. But it seems Westminister California likes to lecture conservatives like me to keep my politics separate from the church, but they in turn have no problem pushing a more left wing political agenda in the church like social justice, and cultural marxism, etc. Their close association with the Gospel Coalition and some of their writings seems to prove this. So like all leftists or left leaning types, they like to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
Cultural Marxism isn’t a thing. That doesn’t mean anything. You’re not making any sense.
Yes this is a debate I have with my self as we move to a more and more wicked society: I am thinking along the lines of pedophilia and how Christians are to engage it on a civil front. I am sure churches will say it's not Christian's battles to fight.
@@DM-dk7js It is a thing. You are the one not making any sense. Go be an atheist troll somewhere else.
It seems Christ is reconciling a Spiritual & Physical kingdom, in which we are in & should be transforming for His glory, not hide in the wilderness. God gives us determined places to live & vocation from which we participate & partake of His divine nature
I like how you said all of this. Lately I’ve been spending time persuading people Jesus is king right nowb
@@leepretorius4869 I agree, & the problem is most people or many Protestants are stuck in a premil dispensational view of scripture esp eschatology where the body of Christ fails & needs to be rescued in a pretrib rapture, when an Amill or Postmill views more positive, Christ is reigning, He started His church formed by the Holy Spirit, that has continued to grow & help change the world. The magnitude of what Christ accomplished by His death, burial & resurrection, gets overlooked or missed & too many make scripture about or to them in the 21st cent, grace & peace
@@J-PLeigh8409 in one of these talks they show a timeline which says after Jesus the church spent 3.5 years evangelising Jews, then Stephen was martyred and then Paul converted to go to the nations. Have you ever heard this before? Where is it from? A book?
@@leepretorius4869 if referring to books outside of scripture then Im not sure but Jews being converted, the martyr of Stephen & Paul bringing the gospel to the Gentiles, is all in the book of Acts
@@J-PLeigh8409 true but matched to that timeline?
Dr. Joe Boot talks about this.
Its always a laugh when i click on a 'Canon press' vid and get a Bill Johnson ad. 🤣
Yeh that was wack
John Frame's book, The Escondido Theology, gives a really in-depth analysis of the theology behind the theologians from Westminster California.
Hi Lu, it's always funny to meet you in the wild on the internet
I'm thinking that a debate between John Macarther and Doug Wilson would be the theological Superbowl of Christianity at this point.
@Bob G All the more reason for them to debate.
I think a better debate would be Hitchens vs Wilson. We already know how that went tho 😉
@@DM-dk7js Yeah, Hitchens was obliterated.
@@gch8810 lol
Escondido Breakdown would be an awesome band name.
Not even the secularists believe in the Two Kingdom thesis, if “kingdom” is to be understood in its proper meaning as a large measure of sovereignty. The secular kingdom deigns to claim authority over the Christian kingdom by default. That makes the Christian kingdom not a kingdom at all in their eyes.
Good point, ty.
Would you put Islam into a one kingdom theology. Religious/worship is enforced on the areas they control. It is a Theocracy vs Democracy or constitutional republic. What Roman catholicism was prior to the reformation. My question is the churches although not all moved way left into liberalism where the scriptures are no longer held as truth and the moral condition is well….followed suit. Who would be in charge the Roman Catholics Eastern Orthodox Islam Lutheran anglican Baptist Mormons JWs Seventh Day Adventist Orthodox Jews? These things can keep one awake at night. I walk, I pray and I trust Him.He’s still on the throne.
I don't know if you see these comments but can you do a teaching on John 18:36?
I would love to know if Doug Wilson rejects Augustine's basic premise in the "City of God" that there are two kingdoms: The City of Man and the City of God?
I think this gets at your question. Listen and to 2:03-2:29
Why does Jesus say , “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
When is the Canon+ app coming!
One day I hope to meet Doug and ask questions….
Buy his books, they will probably answer your questions that you want to ask him :)
YT put a Bill Johnson ad on here 🤪
It's always been time to choose, but never more so than now in our nation: are we Christians, or are we Americans?
I've read a Lutheran scholar who promotes Two Kingdoms without embracing Escondido's error.
Moscow is a small town. I’m sure he’d carve out some time for you.
Two kingodms? Spellcheck!!
"...the Father has... translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love...". From what kingdom has He translated us? We had to come from another kingdom to be translated into Christ's kingdom. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight..." He also says that: "...the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me." Since Satan is the prince of this world, as Jesus says, he must be the head of a kingdom or at very least a principality otherwise, he would not be, by definition, a prince. Satan is also "the god of this world" as per the apostle Paul. My quibble with Doug et al is that we have very different understandings of what "this world" is. I am "not of this world" as He is "not of this world". He has sent me into "this world". I am "sanctified" (separated) from "this world" and operate as an "ambassador" from a kingdom which is foreign to "this world". My whole ambassadorial role is to "see what the Father is doing" and work for Him as He "translates" more from "this world" into "the kingdom of the Son of His love."
I think of it as Jesus’s kingdom does not originate in this world. That doesn’t mean that it is not established here on this earth. All the nations will flow to the City of God. I’m still trying to understand this though.
John 17:15-19 My prayer is not that You take them out of the world but that You protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world even as Im not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. We are supposed to be in this world but not of it, our minds set on things above, but the earth, God has given to the sons of men, so in the New Covenant Age were transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit & we help transform the world for the glory of our great God & Savior Jesus Christ, as love & grace abounds in our lives
@@Audreygraceswank, I too await the establishment of His kingdom upon this earth. I believe that there will be a literal millennial kingdom established upon this earth. The amillennialist and the postmillennialist do not believe this. Notice that I say "earth" rather than "world" as I do not always see them as synonyms. The meanings are contextually governed. Mostly, I see the "earth" as the physical planet and the "world" as the system of government that remains in opposition to Him kingdom until His return in Revelation 19.
@@J-PLeigh8409, That is where we differ. I do not see the "world" as redeemable. My ambassadorial role causes me to advocate for a kingdom that is "not of this world" and as such I seek to present the glad tidings of that other than worldly kingdom to "...as many as the Lord our God may call." It is interesting that the Lord in His pray in John 17 explicitly says: "I do not pray for the world". The world is under judgment. The verdict is in and it awaits the execution of that judgment physically in the great tribulation and ultimately spiritually at the Great White Throne.
@@Saratogan the Great Tribulation already occurred to "that" generation to which Christ was speaking it would come upon in the Olivet Discourse, as well as our King has bound the strong man satan. An literal millennial kingdom as in premil dispensationalism has so many holes, & is a house of cards, the entire doctrine or interpretative system falls apart when scripture is exegeted, the doctrine was formed before texts were evaluated. You might hold to different views & Im not trying to be rude but actually enjoy the discussion w/ fellow believers. I just hold to that which Christ accomplished was so much more than we grasp & He set up His church & continually by the Holy Spirit, to be triumphant, the body of Christ grows not shrinks then needs another rescue in a pretrib rapture. He is synagogue His people & will return but we live peaceful, gracious, charitable, God fearing lives for His glory, as an example & a light to the world, grace & peace
Most alleged pronomians* opposed to the Escondido two-kingdom hypothesis are themselves promoters of a two-kingdom theology, promoting obedience to secular government (e.g. to the biblically egregious Constitutional Republic) rather than a biblical replacement of the same, per Matthew 6:10 & 33, Romans 12:21, Romans 13:1-7, 1 Corinthians 6:1-6, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6, 1 Peter 2:13-14, etc.**
There are two kingdoms, period: biblical and secular. To claim anything else is to be as double-minded as were the Israelites on Mt. Carmel with Elijah. Why halt ye between two opinions? If We the People (a contemporary form of Baal***) be God, serve them. If Yahweh be God, serve Him!
Worse, it's idolatry! Idolatry is not so much about statues as it is statutes, such as what one considers the supreme law of the land.
There can only be one supreme law: 1) The biblically seditious Constitution,**** or 2) Yahweh's triune and integral moral law, per the Bible. Thus to swear to or to promote obedience to both biblical law and secular law is to be a two kingdom advocate.
*To reject any one the three components of Yahweh's triune moral law (the Ten Commandments and their respective statutes and judgments) is to be 2/3rds pronomian. Many alleged pronomians reject the civil judgments as mandatory under the New Covenant and are therefore 2/3rds pronomians, which means they're neither pronomians nor biblical dominionists. Whoever metes out the civil judgments ultimately controls dominion.
**See free online book "The Romans 13 Template for Biblical Dominion: Ten Reasons Why Romans 13 is Not About Secular Government" at Bible versus Constitution dot org. Go to our Online Books page and scroll down to title.
***See blog article "Could You Be a Disciple of Baal and Not Know It?" Search title on our Blog.
****See free online book "Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective," in which every Article and Amendment is *examined* by the Bible, at Bible versus Constitution dot org. Click on the top entry on our Online Books page.
I am declaring now, publicly, that I welcome our Big Tech and Big Media overlords.
Sorry, you commenting on this video has lowered your social credit score to -300,000.
I'd be an 'agree to disagree'-r on this one (also note I am a pragmatic Libertarian/Classical Liberal); but David VanDrunen has some great and capable things to say about how the case could be made looking a scripture as a whole [and considering the historic church's mindset on these matters]. Watch him here on the Theocast Podcast Video: ruclips.net/video/FhbX-Pvm7tE/видео.html ~ it's where I'll ever lean, I suppose.
Is this the Jon Harris of "conversations that matter"?
@@jpfiero , nah not that one.