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40K | The Codex Problem
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2024
- Running out of bookshelf space on this Space Hulk...
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It’s the constant churn that kills it. You buy a bunch of books, build an army, by the time you’ve painted it there’s a codex now, you buy that, adjust your army to work again, by the time you’re done the new edition drops, repeat.
Which can be mitigated if there's art, guides, and lore imo. Once that content got pulled but the price remained the same, it's not really worth paying a premium for out of date books.
Why I tell new players "your army may suck __this edition__ but give it 6 months it will all change. Pick a faction you like and go with it, by the time you are done painting and basing 2000 points your army will probably be the #1 or #2 army. We had flying dreadnoughts at one point ... So anything is possible."
Wouldn't start killteam if wahapedia didn't exist. Codexes are artificially raising the barrier of entry. Make all rules free, keep codexes as lore/fluff and narration campaigns/scenarios. Most hardcore fans will buy them anyway, but you lower the barrier of entry. And people that use 3rd party sites won't buy the codexes anyway.
It's to sucker in new players tbh. If you're a seasoned hobbyist you already know how to pirate stuff or you're the hardcore guy actually buying books. But new players don't know of the tricks we're used to. They don't know of third party retailers for a discount for example.
No one may have the perfect solution, but the current state is an odd half measure that will not last.
I just hope they make all rules free. It’s always been the models that make money and they can find ways to incentivize buying codices with good art, lore, etc.
This is especially true since there are other, similar systems out there, like One Page Rules that are free.
Given that the rules aren't exactly static actually selling physical books is honestly a bit of a scam. Here you have a book of rules that, if you follow to the letter, you're likely cheating.
Yes, you purchased it from GW on this very day, but there have been multiple rules updates since the book came out and of course these aren't reflected in the book itself
This is Infinity / Corvus Belli’s model.
Codecies would still sell like hot cakes if they were just cool artwork and lore. The BL books already sell pretty well and rarely have any artwork other than the cover of the book itself, they're almost fully just lore. Imagine a BL book that focuses on artwork as much as it does on lore.
the rules being free or a loss leader would give 60 bucks of sales in models, most people arent going to 3d print the models. (more likely buying used)
10th was their opportunity to do this. They chose not to.
Guard players don't have a codex problem. That would involve us having a codex for more than 3 months.
But they have codexes 😊 They are just written for the previous edition during most of its lifetime
@@KrullMaestaren True, but less funny
Considering the models are extremely expensive for what they are, all the books should be free on the app. I bought the damn models I should be able to use them.
Wahapedia is life
@@drizzziit1 It's not always up to date tho.
@@YumYumTasty35 Then use balance dataslate until it is
@YumYumTasty35 neither are the books tho. The ad mech codex got erratad with in a month of release...
@@EnRandomSten yes, but the 40k app is better than wahapedia
If you play by books you unintentionally cheat
I'm new enough that I haven't played yet and am still in the assembly and painting part of starting into the game, but the fact that the codices have a staggered release throughout the life span of the edition is absolutely baffling to me. You can play the game for years without even playing the full game for your faction! Imagine if Magic released only one color of a set at a time.
Guard player here welcome to the hobby! Currently hoping for a spring 2025 codex 🤞
Since at least 2001 GW has had this release schedule in regards to codex release schedule. I can confirm that typically, the last codex gets released about 3 months before a new version of the game is dropped
Infinity has fully free rules and updates discontinued sub-factions each edition update. The rulebook has a print version that updates players on the setting lore progression from the last edition and provides art.
Links? Google isnt coming back with anything and ive never heard of this
@@myrmiciex1889Corvus Belli is the company that makes Infinity. Try looking up that name. I switched from 40k to Infinity as I like the rule set more.
@@myrmiciex1889 ruclips.net/p/PL8sTMtIUxLECRkP9FrvgZI4rw6SUtojoK&feature=shared
@@myrmiciex1889, it’s all out there, everything army wise is on their app, and all of the rules are on the wiki.
Infinity and Malifaux have free army builder apps as well as rules. You can buy the books in print, if desired, but that is very much optional. But more importantly with Infinity: the army lists are fix for an entire tournament season. No random releases that eff up the meta all the time. I would not say that any of these systems are anywhere near GW, but they are also not small. There are plenty of tournaments and leagues for these games where i live.
So it stands to reason to say that this can work. Put the fluff behind a paywall (they do it anyway with black library already and it is very popular) but leave the rules free. Less FOMO deals, less disturbing the meta within a game season. Put out rules for all factions in one go, not piecemeal. They showed that they can do it, if they wanted to.
GW will continue coughing out print media well into the future as it is one of the products that GW earns the highest margin on. It has the lowest cost price, and they markup the print media pretty heavily. In terms of Effort-to-Income ratio, print media enjoys the highest such ratio, and it is in GW's interests to continue coughing out print media that nobody buys, because they can earn so much back from even a single sale.
Taking the White Dwarf magazine as an example, it retails for 7 pounds and the cost price is pretty much less than 50pence per magazine, everything included (the actual printing, shipping, cost for all the visuals and editing). Sell one magazine, and you made back 1300% in profits.
I mean every codex is pretty much recycled content at this point, all the lore and art has been already used in some way shape and form in some other product. Even in 10th the stats are basically the same low effort stats from the indices with just some minor changes if any at all, looking at you transcendent c'tan still being able to take enhancements, the codices as you said are probably the products they have the best margins on and there is no financial incentive to change that. However I would suggest to GW that editions need to last longer than the three year period, probably five years, that way you get all the codices out in the first three years and then you have two years to do campaign books. I would also suggest they stop changing core elements of editions that require the creation of indices because fundamentally it is not healthy for the system.
So I have to preface that I don't play big 40k and don't really plan to currently. Maybe I'll get into some boarding actions later doen the line.
However I play Kill Team and find the books there already pretty annoying. If I'd wan't to pick up Phobos and Corsairs, in theory I'd just need the boxes (plus maybe some reivers) for the models. But I have to buy two different books to get the rules to actually play with them. So new players would need to spend ~30€ extra to core rules and the teams themselves.
Into the Dark had the big book at the end containing rules for all the released factions, but I'd still have some unneeded books if I picked up some factions as they released.
All on top that sometimes the Codexes are really not up to date. Kill Team has, as far as I can tell, less big changes, but some factions (Hierotek) have quite some important changes you need to keep track of yourself.
I personally think that making the Kompendium/Core rules free would increase the interest in Kill Team and lower the barrier of entry. Digital codexes could also be neat as an option, that would be updated with changes. But I am absolutely no expert an those are just my thoughts. (Sorry for writing so much)
Lol no you don't. Don't fall for GW scam books and just use wahapedia to print all full up to date rules Kill Team rules for free.
There is a better way. Make the app the main thing sell rules etc on the app and books for just lore. Like they said day 1.
I love 40k... But the cost of buying codices and the other associated costs made me and my Playgroup quit Warhammer after a few games. Still watch Warhammer stuff, but have migrated to OPR.
Same. OPR is much more fun too
I can speak to personal experience. I use a 3rd party app for army building. This means I can just toss together a list on a whim.
This has kept me keeping an eye on other armies that I'm tempted by. I even got some friends into playing when I got them started. That's 3 new players all on a free app. I'm sure if easy access to the rules was the norm I wouldn't be the only one with a similar story.
The fact that the rules for the factions get released separately during the edition instead of at the beginning of it is bullshit.
They are literally chopping the game apart and selling it piece by piece, with some lucky people like me who got their necron codex early, while other factions won't be able to play properly for something like 1 or 2 years and will have rules that will be probably relevant for months before we shift to 11th edition.
This system is simply stupid and i can't understand how people can accept it.
Stockholm
All rules should be digital on the app and easily updated any time there's a new errata or points change.
Codecies can still be around but should contain no rules. Make them hold lore, art, painting guides, visual identification charts for things like weapons and wargear, tips and tricks for players just getting into the army, and list building suggestions, like the Combat Patrols currently being featured.
Did same thing in 8th…then the surge of codex, supplements, FAQs, white dwarf requirements. People who said 7th rules bloat was bad I laughed in their face. 10th seems to be fixing rules bloat..BUT at the cost for customization of armies…
Wizards of the coast managed to figure out PDFs are a good idea.
I really wish the GW consumer had the will to stand up and say no, like people did for WoC
What really sucks about codices is that they become out of date very quickly. Hell if I remember correctly the tyranid codex literally got changed mere days after it was released. This means a ton of new players are getting a book that is, through no fault of their own, wrong.
An especially extreme example of this would be my experience as a guard player at the tail end of 9th edition (not even getting into the guard 9th codex). I attended a tournament say a few months before the 9th codex dropped. I was required to bring the 8th edition codex due to the tournament rules, but throughout the three full games I played, I opened that codex *once* to double check the wording on a stratagem. Everything else was from memory and from the sheet I brought with my army list on it that was totally gotten from a legit website.
And then we got the combat patrol which, for some reason, has exactly zero tanks of any kind. Not even a chimera. And the excuse of “combat patrol isn’t for tanks” falls apart when looking at almost any patrol that released prior to 10th/end of 9th, and seeing they have dreadnoughts or some other vehicle equivalent.
Just all around kinda blows and it certainly didn’t help my opinion of 10th that my first experience with it was fighting the Eldar.
Shelf life for a Codex is so short it's ridiculous, no way am I paying that amount of money to find the rules in said book are incorrect and out of date! I use Wahapedia and have even taken to writing out quick reference books ( in pencil ) so it can be amended, 5/6 times within a month.. probably!
That's a really nice idea, keep the indexes easily available for download. The only downside could be the confusion of the index and codex but if you put a message at the beginning of the index saying "for the full rules, buy the codex" or your corporate flavour of that message.
I don't actually care about the rules be free, I care about them being digital. If each ruleset was X price, maybe half the price of a codex, and it was just the rules digitally. You get access to a downloadable pdf or epub and a code to link it to the app and boom, 1000% easier than it is now. Every time they need to update the rules, just update them directly and you can download the updates. You then release the codex as a physical book that you can purchase full of lore and showcases and painting guides and thematic army ideas or lists to represent battles in the lore and we'd all still buy it! Perfect Christmas gift for a hobbiest and having one for an army you don't play doesn't matter because more lore and cool pictures of models, maybe starting new armies. That's how I'd do it.
I think I saw Greg in the Militarum Tempestus codex but I haven't seen it lately
With the prices of the models i feel the rules should be either free or really cheap like no more than £10. A subscription thing for the rules wouldnt be great because you would be paying more in the long run
all rules should be free online, and sell codexs with rules and lore
As someone whos fairly new to the hobby and warhammer tabletop gaming in general, ive got an opinion that may or may not be valid to the wider and older community.
I think all rules, that including core rules, army rules, and specific miniature rules should be free online. Of course the core rule book will still be sold physically, but more so as a nicer collection of those rules and for general new players with lore and such. Then army/factions specific codexs will of course still have their specific army and miniature rules with it, however its main selling point being the lore, art, art/lore development of the army, and interviews with the people who are at or were at GamesWorkshop on their ideas and experience with that army. Basically the codex is to show your love for that army and tight/easy collection of rules.
I don't know why GamesWorkshop has to add a pay wall for the rules of the game hundreds of thousands play, its dumb and weird. Obviously their main source of revenue is the miniatures and other things like Black Library, Citadel, and Forge World. Its better in the long run to have more people get into the hobby than cutting those newbies out by charging the current players/collectors. I'd rather have both the digital offer for ease of everyone and physical for specific army lovers and lore/art nuts.
Plus it would allow more people to enter the hobby when not having to buy two books (core rules and army codex) that are worth around £100 together. Since your already buying an already expensive starter box and other things here and there like terrain.
I'm sorry if I got anything wrong, so please correct me on that.
As a grey-haired gamer who just wants these kids off my dang lawn, I think a subscription model would be easily the best compromise that satisfies everyone.
Imagine, if you will, paying £9.99 per month for access to all the core rules, codexes, supplements etc. in one app, plus the listbuilder. Over the span of one year, you've spent £120 on rules, which is far more than the £70 you spend on a £40 core rulebook plus £30 codex. But for a new player who doesn't know if they're going to keep playing, that's just a £10 investment for the rules so they can play a few games (not counting the cost of models, which is a whole other thing). It's a lower barrier to entry, with a higher long-term return.
Keep the physical codexes as premium "collector's editions" with lore blurbs, pretty pictures and a disclaimer that the rules can and most likely will go out of date as balance changes are made, and voila! The players are happy that they have a functional app that is continuously updated with the most recent changes, plus access to all their opponent's rules, GW makes more profit as people pay the subscription, and new players aren't put off by the £70 entry fee just to buy the books they NEED to play the game.
GW are worried about piracy, but honestly the piracy is more likely to happen by NOT digitizing your rules and making them inaccessable. There's always going to be a section of the player base that will never pay, and will always pirate your rules, but most piracy happens because it's more convenient than obtaining the rules the legitimate way.
This is precisely why I won't make the jump from Kill Team and Warcry into the larger games.
Me and my friends started playing maybe a month before 10th edition dropped. Not only where we confused by the rule changes. But even to us being new the combat patrols seemed really unbalanced. But also having units that couldn't fight to their potential because their stat lines were different in combat patrols as opposed to regular games led to us being confused when we did actually start playing full 40K matches. Well now we have a better grasp of the game The combat patrol game type definitely feels like a different game unfortunately.
codexes need a longer lifespan given how expensive they are
I think when you sign up for warhammer plus you should get all the codex included.
I’d argue this edition is designed around competitive than casual, loadout options now are more inclining to the player to pick the more powerful options. Removal of warlord traits and relics takes away the incline of custom characters. Less “my dudes” feeling to your armies in general but this can be an easy fix if they’re willing to do it.
Spending Codexes though is fine but I would argue Indexes should still be a thing. Space marines being the primed example where the codexes are being hampered by subfaction balance and an Index for detachments that only codex compliant chapters could use would be a great option.
The index should still be free after the codex drops, i just want to play with friends im not competitive grinding just hanging out
I tried to get into 40k alone, it was hands down one of the worst experiences ever.
Me not having any realy idea about it all, I expected that I would get everything needed in the combat patrol box ... haha. Not even close.
Core rules, rules for the kill team, not to confuse with the codex not the same rules, how to build them or what consequences this might have? Terrain? ... Nothing.
I know its a small thing but they didnt even bother naming the weapon choices in the building manual. Great when somebody asks what weapons you picked. "I dont know the gun with the ripples on the top?"
If I only check whats in the CP box I could build these units however I want and it would still be fine for CP.... nope, but does it tell you that you HAVE to build them a certain way? Again, no.
Its what drove me to one page rules.
I will say AoS and their app does do a bit better of a job with this, letting you look at the datasheets for all armies and build as many list as you want, only locking strats, and the like detachments
We are at a crossroads in many journeys. It will be interesting to see how the intersection of choices turns out; it may be, just as planned...
I took a break as 9th changed to 10th, by first experience involved blatant cheating, however things seem more obvious for players.
Make the codex's lore and art books, with heraldry and stuff like that. Make all rules digital and free, please no subscription purchase, that becomes more expensive than books over time.
I stopped paying subscription for the app because it didn’t give me access to the new codex has that changed?
nope
I feel like the codex's are becoming more and more obeslete, It's made irrelevant within the first month or so of the book coming out so you never bring it with you. It's nice having lore to read and art to look at, but why that isn't just what the book is at this point confuses me. When it comes to the world of piracy as a problem, it's much like some animated shows becoming free on youtube. Make your competition irrelevant whilst airing on the side of the customer. I also think it could remedy a pretty major issue with codexs at the moment:
As an admech player I have had the wonderful experience of owning one of the worst armies in the game with one of the most rushed codexes I have seen, a few basic bandaids have been applied but it hardly deals with even some of the most basic issues. Moaning aside, there is no way that admech would see the comprehencive rework or major adjustment to make them worth playing so close to release of the codex. GW not wanting to invalidate their codexes to soon after releasing them forces them into a predictible stage of X faction being sto strong or to weak with them being powerless to change it any major way till like 2 odd months later (See Necrons for mirrored example of admech). If we do go fully electronic for the rules, they would be able to be much more fluid with their balancing and won't have to deal with the inherent controvercy of releasing a new army that's overpowered only to nerf it to oblivion after this 2 month period.
Data cards are cool but hay look I own admech and serpahon cards, both of whom are now irrelevant. I say invite more fluid changes and allow for more window shopping via the app's rules of different armies
The worst part is GW knew it was a problem and could have fixed it.
They chose not to.
Honestly if they just kept the index and 1 detachment free that's all they'd need atm
Digital will always be my preferred method for rules in any game system. I don’t want to be purchasing a new codex every two years growing a pile of old codices when it can easily be updated in a digital format.
Secondly: The codexes don't even function as rulebooks anymore because they CORRECTLY update rules online so often
Paper back rule books with no law would be a nice answer if they wish to continue on a similar path. At lest it will be cheaper
Make it like shareware. Have the core rules and the model lists, but how theres different detachments give 1 for free. You want the rest of the detachments? Or maybe the new units that released since the index dropped get a codex
Rules have only been to sell models.
Play what you want and negotiate with your opponent about rules.
I understand the standards for tournaments but when it is just you and another try something you both want.
How are they still designing and releasing new plastic sets if it’s apparently so expensive to do so, and they don’t have enough plastic to fulfill the 70k some orders overseas of existing plastic product?
I’d still pay 40-50 bucks for a collectable codex if they routinely gave us new art, lore and painting showcases. And I don’t mean one new page of art and a paragraph of lore and the rest is recycled from last edition.
Warhammer has a Games Workshop problem not a codex problem.
Charity Shop.
Did you heard youself? This was twenty minutes of: "switching to digital rula might cause this problem. Here let me bring you an example that already happened." If these are all problems already affecting the game why there is a debate on the matter?
You are kinda supposed to learn to love mother russia, global communists and the glorious worker union with wahapedia
funny they just dropped kill team salvation rules for free download
Making the rules digital only is only a benefit. People will but lore/art only codex. MORE PEOPLE will get into the game proper if they can get access to updated rules easily and they'll be more willing to start multiple armies. If the piracy of listbuilding-rules websites didn't exist , this game would be a lot less popular.
Id like the codexes to be purchased digitally and physical copies can be purchased directly from GW. Not everyone really wants a physical copy and this could help with the logistics nightmare they are currently in. If the release no longer depend on a book and only on models, GW can time them better.
To be fair... do you really need 4 copies of the necron codex?
If malifaux can offer free rules and ask people to buy books. So can 40k
Right, I was trying to learn the game and its sooo stupid. Starter sets dont have required things, it doesnt explain anything on how to build armies and play. Everything is just so scattered around and unclear, going to try kill team and see but I have a feeling its going to be same garbage with no clear direction
No orksssss ?
Anyone who thought the rules would stay free from GW hasn’t watched them the past decades. They don’t care what’s more approachable or better for the gamer. It’s all about greasing the players for more cash and they know the size of the game will bring people in wether they burn them out or not they really don’t care , as it’s still the biggest game in town. It’s cynical but that’s GW.
Basic ideas , core rules and even army rules should be free , the codex purchase should be a choice for those who want the premium purchase.
Honestly it was hilarious that people thought the rules were going to stay free online. Like do they even know what company they are dealing with. GW executives would literally sell their mothers kidney for ten grand if the thought it would sell. There was no way free rules were going to stay online once the codices started to be released, that is just stupid thinking on peoples part.
GW treating FLG stores as competition and shorting them on product and pushing the GW web store is the real thing that might kill the game.
I hate buying libraries of books just to play the game. I’ve been active in the hobby for 10yrs- i love building, painting, playing but I cannot stand spending my hard earned money on books instead of models.
The biggest problem is how god awful 10th is, I wanna play a wargame not a board game
They change points, stat's, even special rules so often there's no point even getting a codex any more. Why bother if it's going to be wrong in 3 months? At that point you're just paying for artwork and lore, and from what people tell me you don't even get much lore from these 10th ed codices
I wont be buying any books anymore. I will simply wait until GW wise up and sell them digitally at a MUCH cheaper price. Bonus points if there's a bulk offer to buy every armys' rules, maybe even just for a slightly high WH+ sub fee or something.
People need to just stop buying them.
wahapedia
Wake up; it’s tenth edition.
They’ve pursued the same business strategy since the 80s. They’re a corporation. It’s way higher profit margin in endlessly shuffling out paper products than even in the plastic.
Expecting change is, well. Good luck with that. I’ll see you in four or five editions, tell me how it worked out for you.
smart
Its too expensive to play the game imo. If they made the game cheaper to play and easier to get into id consider trying it again.
You need to drop 780 bucks + just to build and participate in the game.
Play OnePageRules
I've checked in on OPR. Not fully sold on it.
I can’t reasonably even play 40K, just no. It feels out of date and halfassed the second you touch stuff. No. So many better games by GW even…
I am soo glad I quit this game.
I hate buying libraries of books just to play the game. I’ve been active in the hobby for 10yrs- i love building, painting, playing but I cannot stand spending my hard earned money on books instead of models.