Why BREADTUBE VIDEO ESSAYS became SO STALE (The Growing Hypocrisy of BreadTube's Thought Leaders)
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- Опубликовано: 31 окт 2023
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- TIMESTAMPS -
0:00 Selling Out
5:14 Thank you, Ground News!
10:41 BreadTube: Then vs. Now
26:39 "Why Is CornbreadTube So White?"
57:19 Performative Anti-Capitalism (and BreadTube's Money Problem)
1:16:29 The eWorking Class and its Luxury Beliefs | The Example of Mina Le
1:26:46 The End or the Rebrand?
- PRODUCTION -
Written by Kidology
Edited by Kidology
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www.bu.edu/antiracism-center/
www.campusreform.org/article?...
www.newyorker.com/news/our-co...
www.tubefilter.com/2023/08/30...
journals.sagepub.com/doi/epub...
www.independent.co.uk/indepen...
www.pewresearch.org/politics/...
www.pewresearch.org/race-ethn...
electionstudies.org/data-center/ (specifically pilot study 2018)
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...
www.newyorker.com/news/our-co...
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#breadtube #videoessay #debate #lefttube 
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Use my link ground.news/kidology to stay fully informed on breaking news, compare coverage and avoid misleading media narratives.
What is breadtube???
Edit: oh, you kinda go into it in the video.
Could be that you only see yer algorithmic window, for there are new faces around that you didn't mention and some of the o are not considered _authentic_ anymore.
Unless you're like, framing it only in the Americas? How about the big chunk of essayists that are focused on the climate crisis side of things?
@@jose.montojah On that note, I highly recommend *Dr. Fatima.* An astrophysicist that combines physics & social analysis in a unique way. *"Gravity is a Social Construct, and That's Ok"* is a great one to start with.
@@yessum15 I'm glad I went to this section, that channel looks interesting
Capitalism co-opts youthful leftist rebellion. Again. It's an old, and at this stage, boring story. First happened in the 1950s, then the 60s an 70s, then the 80s. I was around for the 90s iteration. Grunge/Seattle punk was co-opted so quickly it killed Kurt Cobain. There wasn't a lot of youthful rebellion in the early 2000s. The internet and social media changed that. It took a while for it to be fully coopted, possibly because corporates didn't understand how to effectively co-opt it. But its happened to millennials and Gen Z and Alpha or zombie kids or whatever you call yourselves now. It's capitalist realism. There is no alternative.
The problem with turning political ideologies into fashion statements is that fashion will eventually go out of style.
Counterpoint: people grow out of their emo phase but still sing along to Paramore. If it leaves an imprint, it’s not a failure.
@@UliTroyobars
@@UliTroyoo.o
@@UliTroyothat’s not a counterpoint as it’s about fashion not overall music
@@UliTroyo Some things stay, some things go. It's like the whole "nonbinary" thing. Who knows how long we blur the lines of what is "male" and what is "female" until it ventures into the uncanny valley.
The whole "yet you participate in society! Curious." meme has done irreparable damage to people being able to talk about hypocrisy. There is a difference between having an iPhone while being critical of corporations and having a multi million dollar home and making million dollar brand deals!!! nuance!!! please!!! i beg
Nuance on the internet? Critical thinking? Media literacy? I wish you luck getting that platform on the internet (but I’ll support you however I can).
I mean...if you hate apple and big corpos, but continue to purchase their phones, then idk, it does etch closer to hypocrisy. Being morally against doesn't mean much, if your wallet continuously votes in favour of them.
Yep. The meme was referring to minor things, like drinking bottled water or having a phone. Not to millionaires being socialists. Like what?
You could justify literally anything like that.
Imagine Jeff Bezos saying: "I am just participating in society. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism anyway. "
iphones are trash. besides the hypocrisy of them
hasan piker fits the latter description.
I'm so ignorant, I genuinely thought this was a critique of bread making content at first. And as a former professional night shift baker of a decade, I was so ready. But, this was way better. Thank you for this video, I honestly learned so much! Really nuanced and considered takes.
EDIT: I need to be more diligent and critical is mainly what I learned.
EDIT 2: Also, I am so sorry about your treatment and that cowardly reaction video to your video. A dialogue could have been had.
I'd love to see a video made with this level of insight on the sorry state of bread-making content.
When you wonder why there is no mention of gluten
this comment is the funniest shit I've seen today, thank you for making me laugh❤
I am more a donut guy tbh
You should make that bread making video
I have to be honest asking to be paid for an appearance is not the same as asking for a donation to be given to an organization that doesn't benefit you, but an entire community
Seriously, that was such a ridiculous comparison
Especially when, in context, that was about being invited to participate in bad-faith public spectacle debates that will make someone else money!!
I thought I would be the only one that thought this
100% this! Not a great start to the video
yeah, as someone who actively avoids the drama vids, I had no idea that any of this had occurred, despite following most "breadtube creators" though this wasn't a deliberate choice, just turns out 'breadtube creators" discuss content I want to watch. However, as I had no idea what had happened, and the first 5 minutes of the video doesn't tell me anything at all, the next entire 5 minutes are an ad read, and then the first point made is the 25k donation re; F.D like, I didn't watch the stream, but it was blatantly obvious where F.D was coming from, and tbh I would do the same. Asking for a 25k donation from someone who is goading you into an argument they claim to be a civil debate, just so they can shout you down in front of their fans, I personally think F.D made the exact right call in that situation.
Unfortunately, as I haven't seen any other vids by kidology, and so far over 10 minutes of this hour and a half video have been entirely wasted and irrelevant, I'm not going to subject myself to another 1hr 20 minutes. If there are valid critiques in there, please let me know, I'm not opposed to hearing them, and I don't think these creators are beyond reproach, but I'm not sifting through an hour and a half of content, that so far is 50% advertising, for points that so far, are not valid.
Honestly, not a great video to 'convince other people' seeing as from the comments, that seems like the entire point of this video.... But again, I didn't watch it, because the video is wasting my time...
I believe the issue of dying trends exists beyond BreadTube. Most videos whether right or left has become obsolete and doesn’t really say anything because people are more interested in the person rather than the idea, which creators know. RUclips, as a whole, has been stale. Right now, we’re in an era of dunking on or just plainly beefing with other creators because it’s entertaining.
RUclips is only media consumption. Anything that requires participation (politics, activities, community, etc) gets stale unless you are ACTIVE. No one working in my local food bank / kitchen (other than the few like me under 50 years old) bother with RUclips social content 😅. And the best community organizers only use tech for getting people together in the real world.
And its no problem, as long as it doesnt become a toxic community in an echo chamber, its perfectly fine.
The thing is more that yeah creators shoulfd either have sothing to say while not petersoning to make up stuff. Like actual nerding out, can be cool. Just not high up and making an alternate unnessesary acedemic language.
I know injokes and so exist, but fb seem to unnessesary complicate academic, till jordan peterson level bs.
Ok i like creators, i see its really important to be entertaining, dunking can feed the algorithm, but whats important is selfawareness and doing something educational. Even if its adhd personalities educative go into rabbitholes.
cult of personality bullsh*t.
@@marocat4749 I think it has become a problem. I think a lot of creators who mostly focused on academia or thought provoking topics have moved towards pop-culture events making non-issues into issues. I’ve seen it with right and left creators. A lot of creators have moved towards mainly reaction channels, creating controversy, and/or highlight reels of some crazy shit their guest said on their podcast. It is one of the main reasons why I believe Fresh and Fit were able to rise as fast as they could. RUclips is just in a weird stage right now, which most of the political content on both sides is just public fodder about pop-culture or sone stupid event that has little significance. I think the main issues are that there are too many channels similar too each other, competition with other platforms, and the need to make money and get their videos seen.
@@JamesDecker7 I completely agree. I think that’s why some of the material has become just blah to me.
I'm not going to ignore the fact the video on Breadtube is the length of a short Breadtube video
Bruh😂...
😂
Remarkably insightful. For me, as a leftist, Breadtube has become stale because their content feels exactly that, content. Less concerned with education and discourse, and more about appealing to their analytics. There are some good ones that are more academic, that don’t rely on repeating themselves and their basic ideas; however, most these days don’t challenge me anymore.
There are some “breadtubers”, (bakers?) that criticise the Right’s arrogance to their own hypocrisies, and that some don’t believe in their ideas but do it because of a “grift”. This video acts as a poignant mirror that reflects the painful similarity between this niche community and their sworn enemy. I hope some of them can learn and reflect from this, as opposed to do what they usually do, throw labels and deflect.
The far left is quite similar to the far right and some of these people will switch to the far right with age as they out grow the myth that capitalism is the source of their problems. You already see it in some of them where they are anti-semitic just like the far right. Notice this "colonizer" narrative is not used in foreign conflicts outside the Israel/Palestine conflict b/c these people mostly ignore those conflicts.
I'm genuinely wondering what youtubers yall are watching, because all of the leftist youtubers Ive been watching are great and I am constantly seeing new ideas and analysis and formats being explored
@@QuestionsIAskMyself Which leftist youtubers are you watching? I'd want to check them out :)
I’ve start to listening to older thought leaders for that reason
@@QuestionsIAskMyselfsame, I mean I’m still listening to this video, it’s good to get different perspectives but I’ve had a great experience with left tube.
Nail on the head! As a Blakc person who attended a PWI and who's partner attended an HBCU, I've always noticed that HBCU students have a sort of elitist mentality when it comes to how they view themselves as saviors who look down upon what they deem the "average" black person who may not share their upbringing , education , or experiences. It's almost like they feel as if Black folks who don't share their views and experiences regarding blackness are either sell outs or too stupid to think for themselves so they must do the thinking for them
To me, that is so racist. I think one of the main issues we run into time and time again is collectivism versus individualism. Disregarding someone’s personal thoughts and beliefs because you think they need to agree with you and have the same thoughts as a group, especially from a race standpoint. It’s dehumanizing.
I LOVE to hear differing beliefs, especially when it falls outside of the typical left/right dichotomy. Break the hive mind mentality!
It’s as if they never figured out that saviourism has no color, no flag…. Just the same stench of condescension everywhere.
So, your average lefty?
@@leamubiuding ding mf ding!! They literally mimick white liberalism down to a T but sprinkle it with a little WEB DuBois elitism
@@Darth_Batemanpretty much!
What happened with FD didn't sit right with me. It planted a seed of doubt. This video brought clarity. I don't want to be in a bubble, or echo chamber. I don't want to be alienated and pitted against anyone. I want to hear diverse voices, conversate respectfully and productively. I respect you greatly, and your strength is inspiring.
I'm a teacher, and I'll say that "echo chamber" is a lot of what I see with kids nowadays, too. Your comment reminded me of Johnathan Haidt's research and breakdown of these things as they pertain to modern education. One of his many points is, with terms like "micro-agression," we've primed people to view words that make their identities uncomfortable as agression; he argues that a more apt term might be the French "faux pas" to denote that someone said something that sort of ruined the conversation, but still acknowledge that they probably didn't mean to hurt you. Ignorance is different then active bigotry in my mind, and I think conflating the two is really dangerous. We really _do_ have bigger fish to fry then old, liberal white people who vote blue but will still misgender you out of habbit or w/e. Do I like it when people don't use my pronouns? No. Are they my enemy? Also no.
I understand the talking points on the left about how minorities shouldn't _have to_ explain themselves to the majority all the time. How that's a sometimes unfair burden to place on them, but in my mind that doesn't mean that we should disengage _all_ the time, and I feel like that's what it's become. It's all "I don't have to explain this to you; it's pointless if I do; you're only asking me things to disregard my opinions so I won't even bother", or in translation, "if I can't change your entire world view in one conversation and have you agree with me on everything, then what's even the point?"
As if that's ever a realistic burden for _one_ conversation.
I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be so fragile that I can't deal with a fucking stranger saying something mean to me, and I don't want to be so unkind or triggered that I can't even manage an attempt to either educate kindly, or bite back as the situation dictates. And do you know what we can all do if it's really going nowhere? Fucking disengage. Leave the room, turn off your phone, whatever that means in context. But I still want to try.
We grow stronger the more we expose ourselves to opposing view points. If we routinely have to verbalize, and reitorate our own thoughts in different contexts, we discover more and more reasons to be ourselves. We find more holes; we build more patches. Hopefully we build more common ground, too, or even change some minds along the way; it's a _good_ thing.
I hate it when breadtubers put disclaimers on their videos that amount to "of course, i'm not saying you need to do something about this if you're not in the right headspace or if you're disabled!"
Fuck that. Most of the people in your audiance are not incapable of action; stop giving them an out. I hope people feel bad when they do nothing, and I never wanat to be that person. "Do what you can" means do what you can; not do nothing if it makes you "feel bad/uncomfortable".
I'm out of the loop, what happened with FD?
@@Nitenshi He and other Breadtube creators made a video critiquing Kidology a few months back. The critique was in direct response to her "Left: Do Better" video, wherein they essentially critiques her for catering to the white majority and engaging too much with respectability politics, in addition to insinuating that she didn't take trans issues seriously/kind of making it sound like she was transphobic to their audience, that she was using right wing dog whistles, and some other stuff.
I feel like I'm making it sound reasonable? To be fair, I think all of those things are valid critiques/opinions to have (save the dog whistle one honestly), but when you add on top of that 1) meeting with multiple popular creators and having them all voice the same opinion, 2) making it an 1.5 hr + long video to get across some pretty basic points, and 3) pulling a lot of their points around to critiquing her "blackness," it was essentially a massive swath of RUclips ganging up on her. She received a massive wave of online harassment as a result.
With her original video that they were responding to as well, I'd boil it down to "I think you need to be nicer, and include more people sometimes; even if they're not part of your community, even if they have different opinions." Again, you can disagree; I do think it's fair to label that as respectability politics, and I do think it's fair to not like it on that ground. I don't personally think that, but I can see where someone would. Either way, "be nicer and listen to people" still isn't exactly a hot-take. Nearly two hour critique video, in response to "be nicer and talk to people."
More than that though, he also did a livestream with her afterwards to apologize for some things where he didn't communicate very well (in my opinion).
He's not a bad person by any means, and while I do think he deserves credit for trying while everyone else who was involved just stuck their heads in the sand, the livestream was weird. I don't think he communicated very well or really came with the best of intentions, even if he might've meant to. Kidology handled the situation with as much grace and poise as she could have under the circumstances.
One of the main "points" that I think was relevant for understanding this video is that, from F.D.'s perspective they're not an echo chamber, and they're not gatekeeping their community by explicitly deciding who does and doesn't get to be a part of things; they're engaging in "quality control." Despite that, Kidology points out that they all think the same, hold the same opinions, and only associate with people who are part of the group.
I tried to be fair with my recap. Once again, I don't think F.D. is a bad person, I just think it was a severely negligent move on his part, but form your own opinion 🤷
@sawyerk641 thanks, that was helpful. Maybe I'll watch FD video (and kidology) to have an idea of the points made.
I think he might've taken down his video? Which, he should have to be clear; I remember him doing that rather quickly when he heard how much harassment she was getting, so good on him. The livestream and Kidology's original video are still up though.@@Nitenshi
I wonder if the performative e-working class would still pretend to be working class/poor/oppressed if we had no social media.
I think they might. I had a former boss that liked to pretend he was working-class, just like us, the people he happily paid 'the industry standard' (minimum wage). Some rich people and some people that have climbed the social ladder love to cosplay as working-class. They like to pretend they earned their wealth by hard work, not exploitation.
LOL never heard someone call them the e-working class, that's actually hilarious
Of course not lol, it's only value comes from how it positions you in the social media space to be more relatable.
without social media how can they claim those precious oppression points? 😂
Well, their income and lifestyle comes from their e-performance, so I assume they would need to get a job or seek some other grift.
Not gonna lie i have never heard the term "breadtube" despite following many of the creators under this label. I honestly I thought this was somehow about a huge food content creator scandal and was ready to watch you explain it for over an hour 😂
😂😂😂😂me tooooooo
It's funny how this video felt like a WRECKING BALL when in reality she's just calmly stating the hypocrisies we've all witnessed she just bothered to actually sit down and gather it all in one place lol. props to her making this video and hopefully some of them will reflect
She never seemed to address why it's bad for average listeners to adhere to breadtube's philosophies. She rails against the hypocrisy that the "thought leaders" are guilty of, but she never delved into why it's dangerous for them to spread their supposedly bad ideas to the average consumers of the content. How are "luxury beliefs" detrimental for society writ large to adhere to? How is caring about the climate, egalitarianism, and accountability bad or dangerous ideas for average working people to prioritize?
@@charlesmiv3842 Because you end up with a load of plebs mindlessly parroting the luxury beliefs of fat middleclass tweaker shut ins which votes in feel good legislation that works out far more disastrous for society in the long run like when the green movements in the 70's gimped nuclear power. If cooperatives worked so well, why doesn't vaush run his business as one?
On a secondary note I think we should congratulate her channel growth
@@charlesmiv3842she has a video called “Why the Left Needs to Do Better” or something to that effect.
It’s the one that she references in this video that got her into so much trouble with Cornbread Tube.
It delves into what you’re talking about quite deeply.
@@purpleflows5680 Yeah, I've seen it, and no, it's just another video crapping on left tube and stirring up drama.
As someone who consumes a lot of breadtube content, and doesn't fully agree with all the criticisms leveled in this video, I still really appreciate the thought and the larger critique being made here. I really hope that breadtube content creators can chew on this and take some of the criticisms here to improve their content and potentially focus on how their content can better encourage activism and where they can reflect on whether or not they are contributing to capitalism in ways that they don't necessarily need to.
The truth is that anti capitalism and anti-racism is ironically the most capitalistic business I have ever seen.
You only have to look at the recent corruption scandals in movements like Black Lives Matter.
The truth is that Breadtube and by extension a lot of Western Socialists like to have it both ways. They are so quick to say that there are no truly Socialist countries but yet are so adamant that their specific brand of Socialism will definitely work, despite having no practical applications anywhere on the planet. Then they give petty excuses like that they are forced to live under Capitalism. It's all just one massive grifting business to me.
Like Second Thoughts apparently cares about the climate and hates cooperate exploitation but then will happily drive fancy petrol guzzling cars and ranks how COOOOL each one is. Yh, "forced to participate under Capitalism" my arse.
Same!
Honestly. I doubt they will. I think the best take from this video is to realise their biases as well when viewing their content. A.k.a. critically analyse the critical analysts.
@@theMRsome12that would take a certain level of sacrifice of egos and self awareness, and for some people protecting their ego is more important than believing and admitting the truth
We all know they’re not going to. It’s far too profitable to put on a facade and pretend (or…maybe not even pretend and wholeheartedly believe some of the more out there things…) to “be about being about” these beliefs (quote unquote) than it is to be critical of them or actually be about creating a space where you can truly be inclusive.
After all, why else would they do RUclips if not to be seen in a higher status than they would had they just stayed in their Academic Circles or not even being into Politics? It’s a pretty cynical way to think, but from what I’ve been seeing of BreadTube since the start of the Kung Flu Lockdowns…it doesn’t entirely inspire hope or trust in their/the entirety of BT ability to be impartial about anything.
It also doesn’t help either that many a topic taken on by BreadTube has been put into doubt lately by the tidal wave of revelations regarding many Studies/Published Findings cited in regards to Anti-R_cism/R_cism/Sociology all because of a professor from FSU (Eric Stewart) that not only WILLINGLY MADE UP HIS FINDINGS but also had the staff/fellow Academics/the upper management of FSU not only protect him but also project a narrative about his many retracted Studies being a targeted attack towards him because of…wait for it…”r_cism” 😒😒😒😒😒
It doesn’t stop there, either. You can go on and on and find how many Academics/Researchers in recent years have been involved in laundering “objective facts” into their studies whilst having Scientific/Medical Journals look the other way and get that precious Grant Money from the Government to continue living big at the expense of truth/integrity.
And BreadTube themselves have willingly done the same, even going so far as to Ad Hominem their critics with “findings”/research that some know are not true or factual sound…but by appearing to be an expert, the trust that comes with it from the audience and their Parasocial Relationships will carry them.
E.G.
- Illuminaughti (midwit grifter and psychopath)
- Hassanabi (formerly Bro Tips, the womanizing/Se_.Haras. enthusiast and soft Leftist)
- F.D. Signifier (very obvious grifter who gets by on his Blackness)
- Mina Le (opportunistic hypocrite that cries about Capitalism yet gets sponsorships from major Fashion houses)
- [insert “I escaped the Alt-Right” YTers who very obviously are in it for the money and know things aren’t necessarily as extreme as they claim here]
- Vaush (possible P_dophile, confirmed delusional Revolutionary white boy suffering from White Guilt and the fact he looks like a “Trumper”)
- Hbomberguy (former best friend of Mr Metokur and mega cybertroll turned Ultra-Socialist who buried his past to seem legit; also a terrible liar)
…and others. Many of these guys/gals cannot even be convinced that they’ve told lies or even that they’ve been wrong in the past…so why trust them? It’s very clear that they’re perfectly fine with dehumanizing people who disagree with them, so to see people fall for it (the act) is disheartening.
Same could be said for the (disproportionately smaller amount of) Right Wing grifters.
You know what, I follow F.D. and was really unhappy with the lack of empathy you’ve been treated with by him and the community. Thank you for your perspective.
Same
Ditto
FD definitely used kids blackness against her, and had his friends makes jokes about it when it’s something personal. He definitely could have been nicer in his criticism and reached out privately. Plus he can be a bit of a hypocrite
And all for a video where her message boiled down to "I think you guys basically need to be nicer and include more people, sometimes."
You can disagree with it, but it certainly wasn't the hottake F.D. acted like it was lol.
Absolutely agree. I've enjoyed FD videos a lot. In that conversation the rationale to continue to not acknowledge you was definitely boiled down to "quality control" when what he really was communicating was assimilationism.
You vocalized in the end part something Ive felt for a long time: the essays just arent good anymore. A new trend is bringing on fellow youtube essayists and treating them as experts. Its so intellectually lazy. Contrapoints' Envy was the magnum opus of youtube. If one isnt aspiring to surpass it someday, then please stop.
WELL SAID.
Yes I’m seeing the “RUclipsr as expert” thing all over the place, Step Back had second thought on as a talking head as though he’s an expert in anything. Lazy and manipulative
@@___.51
Jessie Gender had some good videos when she started. But now she makes 3 hr long, repetitive slogs that feature her buddies. I just can't with her anymore. Which sucks.
Many of these video essays are just badly articulated personal thoughts. I’ve seen essays on chrischan’s life that surpass the best of breadtube in terms of logic, clarity, and execution. a nice mic won’t make up for shit.
@@m.ceniza4688
Oh gods, don't support ChrisChan content. But I get what you mean. These aren't essays, they're vlogs. Honestly, that's all Kat Blaque does, and I'm not here for it, but at least she more or less admits it.
I feel like early bread tube tried to reach a wider audience and maybe even convince people who had different opinions. They had to because back in the day youtube was overrun with anti-SJW anti-feminist content.
But now there is a market for breadtube and they just have to cater to that.
It's become a very vicious echo-chamber, with the same ideas and arguments being recycled for the same handful of 10-20 creators who are always recommended in our feeds.
bingo - they're preaching to the choir at this point.
100%. I don't mind the occasional incredibly niche topic or fringe take from breadtubers, but that seems to be all they do nowadays
They make entertainment now and are vacuous, hypocritical, and useless.
Lmao breadtubers are the about as feminist as Andrew Tate. Try criticising surrogacy, prostitution or plastic surgery and watch them show their true colours. Heck, just state the definition of "woman" 🙄
I'm glad Kidology is here to at least think about a topic before posting an hour and a half video. Some of these video essayist people get caught lacking and its just a rambling video about nothing. Your ideas are cutting edge in a world of Tiktok inspired videos.
Thank you _so_ very much for such a generous SuperChat😯😭! You are too kind! Thank you very much indeed, @StormyDmaster!
LOL, your bar must be so very, very low if you think these are "cutting edge" ideas. 🤣
@@MeNatalieMarie I've watched leftists make the same "capitalism made thing bad" video like a hundred times. How they poorly read of the wikipedia definitions of a concept, threw in some leftist writer's quote who may or may not agree with them and laughed smugly to themselves about how much they know. These people should be coming to slightly different conclusions and yet it is all standardised.
Making new ideas, new terms, new forms of expression that isn't tied to some book or another but supported by various books is a lot more refreshing. I value free thought higher than dogma and its been quite a while since youtube leftists made a good new term, theory or unique way of looking at something.
Kidology lost so much for saying what she actually believes in and while it may not be perfect, her videos have actual humanity and thought put into them, something I often find lacking in modern video essays.
LOL, I see you wrote your own essay. "Actual Humanity," except for trans people I guess? Her "Kindly, Do Better" video was so VERY transphobic. Does she not consider trans people human? Is that what you're saying? I wouldn't be surprised if she hated trans people that much.@@SDM-Zone
@@MeNatalieMarieHow was it transphobic? I’m genuinely curious, I don’t watch her often.
Coming for Alice Capelle for “out-sourcing her labour” as a big gotcha moment is a little silly… especially when the what you are criticising is someone else editing her book lmao. I can understand where you are coming from on some points but this is essentially the capitalism = no iphone meme personified.
the idea that alice cant be an anti-capitalist because she is sponsored by squarespace is also stupid imo. at the end of the day this is her career and we need to earn money in order to live under this system. you can critique capitalism while operating under it, we dont have to live outside of capitalism in order to critique it.
Just to debunk the point about Alice Capelle, landlords renting housing which people need in order to live is not the same as video creators selling ad space in their videos.
The ads are not living beings which will die without shelter. The comparison is absurd.
there are a lot of things that don't sit well with me with this video, thank you for articulating that
+
yeah i felt that there are a decent amount of false equivalencies being made in the video. it also feels a bit whiny and some sort of jab towards breadtube for her losing income due to critique.
@@AEgir347 i actually didn't mind those complaints. i thought it paralleled the points made in the video nicely. but i agre with everything wlse in your comment. edit: confusing wording
By that logic farmers shouldn’t have to paid for the labor because food is necessary for life.
I dont agree with all the points made here, but this was a very welcome critique into the growing corruption that is more and more evident in Breadtube circles.
What points do u not agree with? But everything she said is factual
@@K1Kamikaze I don't think weaponizing the murder of a child to get all weepy voiced over dead IDF soldiers was very "factual"
@@dissidentcrusher I'm pretty sure she was getting 'all weepy voiced' over dead, innocent civilians (the killing of which was called based) but sure, you can freely misconstrue her words.
@@Daltoniss There were IDF soldiers in the pictures. You can literally confirm this by looking at official israeli state media posts using the same images.
@@K1Kamikaze Calling anti-capitalism a luxury belief is a bit of a stretch as well.
Overall your thesis seems to be that anti-capitalists making money is hypocritical. This is, as others have said, essentially the "you claim to hate capitalism and yet you have an iPhone" argument. Most of the most famous leftist thinkers have been very privileged and wealthy (Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, and so on), and still they had massive impact on real life revolutions worldwide.
In one of Contrapoints' videos (I believe either Opulence or The Problem with Capitalism), she addresses your argument that you shouldn't criticize capitalism if you're succeeding under capitalism quite nicely: when she was a broke grad student, people would say "you're just criticizing capitalism because you're jealous and wish you succeeded!" But then when she started achieving success, people began saying "you're such a hypocrite, criticizing capitalism even though it's made you rich!" So in that case, who exactly is allowed to criticize capitalism?
I have to concur.
Overall, it’s an important video imo, but commits the Appeal To Hypocrisy Fallacy.
way to miss the entire point of the video
I would say similar sentiments are true for the leaders of Black social movements in the US. When you look at MLK, Black writers, and many Black Panthers they were college educated. The leaders of movements had education, status and money that they used to lead. The regular person didn't have time and often didn't agree. Many Black folks would've kept working in a segregated country iff not for these leaders. That doesn't make them wrong, but when you're not struggling day-to-day you have more time to reflect, organize and take action.
Once you have your material needs taken care of, why don't you use the rest of your money to help others? It is absolutely freaking hypocritical.
I don't rate many Breadtubers highly myself, but this video really did come across as an hour and a half "yet you participate in society" argument spurred on by hurt feelings. I for sure thought there might be more to it than that, look at its incredible length! And yet, no. Just that, and then a lot of hypocrisy with regards to The Working Class^TM.
Yeah, sure, tell me more about what I believe and what I care about and what I do in my spare time, I have a kink for misrepresentation.
There is a misconception about the "ordinary person" whenever privileged people want to discount progressive causes as too elitist. Personally, I have found that conservativism comes more from privilege than not. The supposed conservative and religious ordinary women are voting against anti-abortion legislation while wealthy women sponsored the reversal of Roe v. Wade. Ordinary people are joining labor unions and forcing corporations to share profits while privileged conservatives say the working class cannot afford to lose income in a strike action. Right wing populism promises the same social welfare that progressives advocate for but only for the white population.
My progressive beliefs about abortion and colorism came from market women who took me in because they were proud of my complexion as bleaching was very common a decade ago in my African country. Recently, the media has been stunned by the increasing acceptance of the queer community among the ordinary Ghanaian given parliament's sponsorship of an anti-LGBTQ bill. Conservatism in African countries comes from the elites who are trying to assimilate into white acceptance. I suspect it is no different in the diaspora.
Interesting perspective!
I think with diaspora in the us there's the model minority and bootstraps rhetoric which do play into white acceptance/assimilation like you said. The lawsuit against affirmative action by a asian ivy league applicant is a good example, asian immigrants (particularly east asian or indian) are more likely to be legal, wealthy, educated, and align with rich conservative interests, while those seeking better opportunities in the us with success and feel like the American dream worked and meritocracy is real. My parents are chinese immigrants from poor families who using social welfare became middle class us citizens and now identify with them and the rich white conservatives promising tax cuts rather than other poc immigrants who are often undocumented workers or refugees. It's a bit special in their case bc they both have one generationally poor parent and one parent from a rich (mom side) or middle class (dad side) family whose wealth and power was taken away by Mao and became poor so their rich people sympathy makes sense to me from all the family trauma associated with authoritarian communism. Leftists talking abt the red scares impact on anti socialism usually leave non western countries experiences out or overly glamorize china and soviets (second thought and many tankies). I didn't mention social conservatism but I have seen theory about immigrants bringing with them a frozen time capsule of their home country's cultural beliefs that they try to maintain in order to not fully assimilate, my parents haven't really challenged their homophobia despite younger chinese people increasingly being supportive of queer rights
I think with diaspora in the us there's the model minority and bootstraps rhetoric which do play into white acceptance/assimilation like you said. The lawsuit against affirmative action by a asian ivy league applicant is a good example, asian immigrants (particularly east asian or indian) are more likely to be legal, wealthy, educated, and align with rich conservative interests, while those seeking better opportunities in the us with success and feel like the American dream worked and meritocracy is real. My parents are chinese immigrants from poor families who using social welfare became middle class us citizens and now identify with them and the rich white conservatives promising tax cuts rather than other poc immigrants who are often undocumented workers or refugees. It's a bit special in their case bc they both have one generationally poor parent and one parent from a rich (mom side) or middle class (dad side) family whose wealth and power was taken away by Mao and became poor so their rich people sympathy makes sense to me from all the family trauma associated with authoritarian communism. Leftists talking abt the red scares impact on anti socialism usually leave non western countries experiences out or overly glamorize china and soviets (second thought and many tankies). I didn't mention social conservatism but I have seen theory about immigrants bringing with them a frozen time capsule of their home country's cultural beliefs that they try to maintain in order to not fully assimilate, my parents haven't really challenged their homophobia despite younger chinese people increasingly being supportive of queer rights
Well said thank you. You addressed one of many false assumptions
I remember when Breadtube came about around 2016, for a long time youtube had been dominated by right wing content, anti SJW owned collections, the fall out from the gamergate mess and more. The left wing creators before that era where not much to write home about and much of their videos got bombarded with mass dislikes much of the time. To add to the pre breadtube era leftists online many of them have the air of finger wagging about privilege or social justice concepts which didn't do a good job of selling people on progressvism as people would hear a lecture and feel they where being judged.
Then you had Shaun, Hbomberguy, contrapoints show up who debunked so much of those right wing/MRA type videos that where infesting the site and along with that they where funny, informative and entertaining. These days it feels like they show up once a year to make some fancy art movie film about pop culture topics that preaches to the converted or just debate type content, it feels like its lost a spark in a way.
Yeah I felt this video (which I like, Kid is one of those creators who is interesting and makes you think even if you disagree) did leave out some important context surrounding the original rise of Breadtube, which was how hard content creators on RUclips and online in general had swung right from 2014-17 post Gamergate and all that. The 'alt-right pipeline' was very much a thing, and I would argue that the deplatforming of a lot of the extreme right-wing content (as in, more or less open support for white identity politics, verging on if not actually full-blown neo-Nazism) that used to run rife online was complementary to Breadtube gaining popularity.
@@hemanthnair1290 I agree also part of the reason I dislike this whole "cornbread tube" thing because it has that judgemental air the pre breadtube left had but taken to extremes where its nothing more than a clique of smug condescending creators who finger wag and also start insane amounts of toxic drama along with harassment against other creators then acting like crybullies when they get pulled out on it but yeah its kryptonite for pulling people towards the left and away from the right or the fence.
@@sayachan6069o.o
You make it sound like right-youtube isn't much much larger than left-youtube. 2015 was a transitional year where the right exploded bc woke ppl finally gave them a left-adjacent group they could use as a heel. Also you left put that this culture war shit initially started as a left civil war. Sry but the edge lord lefties of the early 2010s were a lot better at keeping the right small and marginal. It wasn't until woke weirdos revealed their existence that the right exploded in 2015-2016.
And like 80-90% of the country still doesn't like woke weirdos. You guys have only served as a heel to explode the right's popularity.
Man contrapoints first videos were incredible to watch, so chaotic, funny and fearless. The thing is i think that made Natalie too vulnerabe to real hate from both far right and leftists.
I will say we (as the left as I am left) are making political spaces social spaces and that is very problematic. We need to work with people that will not be our friends. Sure it is great to make a friend but closing rank to only friends when you are trying to make change is so counter intuitive to that goal. We have such higher standards for friends (the clique you mentioned) than people that just want to do the work generally.
I really like how you expressed this. Of course we hope to make friends when we combine efforts, but coalition-building is not about making friends, it's about making impact. I've definitely had to grow and evolve my relationship with activism as I've realized how important it is to work across (or through) divides where there are common goals. I personally still find it pretty tricky 😅 but reframes like you just shared ("We have such higher standards for friends (the clique you mentioned) than people that just want to do the work generally.") are helpful. Thank you!
This is a criticism I can get behind. I thought the video wasn’t that good. It seems to be fueled by the spat with her and F.D and her losing income which is obviously very valid but idk, why not make a video on that I guess.
Thank you. Maybe it’s cause we are saturated with entertainment and dopamine, but I feel like there’s this idea that protesting and activism has to be “entertaining.” Case in point: the reason video essays are so theatrical and colorful. But politics, activism is not entertainment, it’s learning. And learning can be dreary and boring, but it is also necessary in moving forward
i nearly made a whole video about FD’s conversation with you - it was SO FRUSTRATING to see you extending so much patience and willingness to understand, only for FD not reciprocate a good faith conversation. i only decided against making my video because i’m more of an outsider to the situation and felt it wasnt my place to speak on it. but it really bothered me, and was the start of my decent out of breadtube. i’m glad i found your channel - we might not agree on everything but i think that’s healthy. i’m always encouraged to learn more about the topics you cover. thanks kidology, i hope you have a good day :)
I haven't watched that particular video, but in general I have noticed and become frustrated with FD's increasingly single-minded approach to video making, as well as his almost chauvinistic attitude towards those who disagree with him - especially when they are just as qualified, if not more so, to dissect an issue as he is. I'm unfortunately not surprised to hear that his poor conduct extended to the conversation with Kidology, and will be interested to watch the full discussion.
F.D. is incapable of accepting good-faith disagreement or re-evaluating his beliefs. His belief in his perpetual correctness is truly unparalleled. He's one of the most infuriating people on the online left.
It was a very unkind stream, not least of all because I think he went into it with the idea that they were going to have a "calm talk" when Kidology was clearly upset throughout most of it. And I don't mean that to say that she wasn't calm and levelheaded throughout--she absolutely was, I just mean that he singlehandedly heaped a ton of trauma and really hard conversation onto her, but he wasn't taking that into consideration with how he was approaching the conversation.
And that's another thing breadtube will throw mouth at all the time. It's really tough to approach things evenly, or articulate what you mean when you're scared.
I can't think of any specifics anymore, but I remember the first time I watched it it got to some point where they were both talking about things and I was sitting there thinking "F.D., my man, you don't even disagree about this; this is just semantics and word choice at this point. Listen to what she's fucking saying. Explain this to her; she's literally asking you to."
Or even when Kidology started talking about her philosophy? That broke down too in my recollection, because to F.D. philosophy and praxis are interchangable terms when that isn't the case (especially not when you have an actual philosophy background).
Honestly, can't be too surprised that he doesn't do livestreams if that's how he general is with them 😂Just absolutely piss-poor at listening to the person you're talking to, taking their needs into consideration, and adapting accordingly. You know, aka, a conversation.
I dunno. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm "babying" Kidology. She was still well spoken and articulate throughout, I'm just saying that real hurt had been done to her and he wasn't acting like it in a way that really made me roll my eyes.
Look at it this way
yours would be a fresh perspective. Sometimes an outsider *can* see the forest for the trees
@@ByeByeTankiesyh5gddo you still enjoy his content though?
I think this is a problem with black Americans looking at British black people. We grow up with different experiences and they are so absorbed with America individualism that they lack any perspective that racism and racial experiences are different all over the word.
Don’t speak for black Americans.
the American individualism is my biggest gripe I have with BAs. It’s an annoying thing with Americans in general, but it’s so annoying not being able to bridge a certain gap in racial conversations with BAs because their ego gets in the way. Not trynna be a hater lol I understand both perspectives because my family is African and I was born in Canada. It’s just frustrating seeing these conversations happen time and time again with no real understanding
American "leftists" in general are as neck deep in American exceptionalism as their right. Seeing how many of them responded to last year's invasion, as someone from a neighboring country, was absolutely chilling. Pure colonizer mentality and barely repackaged racism.
Why are we starting a video on a lie (or a false equivalence)? FD asking for Destiny to donate $25,000 to Stop Cop City adjacent organizations is not the same as Kendi (or whoever it was) having to be paid $20,000 for a speaking gig. This is something Destiny should be doing regardless if he put his money where his mouth is (and it's something he lied about later on, showin that he does want to somewhat maintain his image as a progressive). It's also money FD is never going to see, unlike that other person for whom te 20k is his income.
Also, FD clearly doesn't want to talk to Destiny. I thought that was obvious. You can tell just from the clip she chose. Its unlike that other person who relies on speaking gigs for income. The context isn't remotely the same.
There are problems with breadtube. There are problems with many organizations, and they should always be called out. But there's no need to lie to make a point that can be made without one.
THANK YOU, I thought I was the only one who caught that
Yeah, that was weird and I can't believe it made it into the video. immediately made me jump to the comment section to see why kidology was being so bad faith to F.D (surprise surprise, there was drama, and that statement just seemed to perpetuate it.) if you're going to make a video about hypocrisy and grifting on the left, don't start it out with such a glaringly obvious, personally driven false equivalency.
yeah that stuck out oddly to me for someone who otherwise is very thoughtful and measured in their videos (id actually consider kidology to be on the more empathatic side of the scale compared to other youtubers)
I think she did it on purpose as an example to highlight what her perspective on breadtube was.
@@erichudsonjr5465 no, I don't think so. She frames it as an honest-to-God gotcha. She never lets us know that the accusation isn't serious, whether it be through the tone of her voice, the visual played (it's just a clip of FD) or the accusation itself that could've been far-fetched to highlight how ridiculous it is when online leftists do it. Nothing she said or did offers any broad perspective on breadtube other than her own on that particular instance, where she happens to be wrong.
Kat Blaque and Contrapoints have more long term durability because they are genuinely funny (mix of impish mockery with self depreciation), have something interesting to say, are actually very well informed about what they choose to talk about, and are very upfront about their upper middle class backgrounds. Of note they are some of the few O.G. creators that actually bother to talk about misogyny and violence against women - which has been completely abandoned by most commentators in favor of "anti-carcerality."
i agree. my introductions to ‘breadtube’ were hbomberguy, contrapoints, and kat blaque and they still hold up compared to the creators i started watching later on, esp in quarantine, like hasanabi. I feel like hasan especially falls into that category lol nowadays ill look at some some of the clips of him on twitter where hes talking about palestine but when i found out hes a literal john who went to a brothel that was raided for human trafficking i really cant watch his streams in good faith. same thing goes for vaush or whatever but i always found him pretty gross
@@sasha9465 yeah it's actually pretty alarming how outright gross Hasan, vaush, and the like are about women. Between the right being ok with pimps so long as the endorse misogyny and the "left" being ok with expressions of misogyny if it's in the context of porn...the stage is set for a re emergence of dworkanism or status quo liberalism. I forgot about hbomberguy but he is absolutely a durable OG he's funny focuses on quality over quantity and reads a ton.
@@sasha9465 source for Hasan? That's disappointing if true, Hasan and vaush are also bad at handling even the potential of being wrong. The way vaush handled the contra & kat blaque situation turned me away from him tho I still watch a few vids like his response to second thought trying to dilute the definition of authoritarianism in support of auth left type of rhetoric (anark has a better response video if you don't want to listen to vaush rambling)
@@sasha9465 the brothel was raided but they found nothing and they're suing the city now i believe.
@@anny8720 i used to watch anark but his analysis of revolutionary movement comes from a very western and individualistic lens
This is one of the best videos you've put out. We need more nuanced discussions instead of name-calling or whatever these people do.
Your take is a shining beacon of nuance.
Actually fr
How about a nuanced video that then does all the name calling at the end? I’d be down for that.
I’ve always appreciated Kidology for her nuanced take and for allowing enough video time to explore her points. I like long form video essays
Kakaze is being sarcastic and this is a center-right brainwashing video and that's about all
There's a lot of stuff I disagree with here, but quite a bit I agree with. Ideologically, we don't align. But the critique of Breadtube is much appreciated.
"Sorry, I mean exclusively African Americans" lmao! Such an important point made there. AA's attempts to monopolise the black experience is hilarious and annoying as f*ck at the same time
I mean....they're speaking from their own experiences. Because I guarantee if they did start bringing up other experiences, they'd get criticism for assuming they know anything about the experiences of non-American Black culture.
@piratesswoop725 and that's exactly what I'm NOT talking about, so not sure why you bring it up. Speaking from your own experience is fine. Telling people that their black experience is not valid because they're not black Americans, and further still, not "foundational black Americans", is not the same and is not OK.
These people centre the African American history as 'the' valid black experience, and even go as far as to attempt to monopolise the term 'black'. Saying some people aren't black, they're African or Caribbean lol. Tariq Nasheed is a great example of one such idiot who subscribes to this mindset, and its exactly that idiocy that FDS tried with Kid. The idea being that she's just a little African migrant over in the UK and isn't really able to speak on blackness, because blackness is owned and therefore can only be commented on by the likes of FDS. THATS what im talking about
@@yoogeo1 Those "Cornbreadtube" folk love to make themselves the blackness police (and will simultaneously claim that they're not doing that so that you're primed to not notice when they do start doing it). They way they talk about "fly in the milk" black folk like Kidology is very problematic. It's like, if you're a black person that didn't grow up in a predominantly black community, you're inherently damaged goods to them and need to step aside for REAL black folk. If you're a black person that dares to go against their views- which usually boils down to criticizing their own bad behavior and problematic views (this is also the case if you criticize their token white friends who stan for them without question), they will revoke your blackness card and call you horrible slurs (This is what happened to Shark3ozero).
@@yoogeo1dang, I'm new to this drama but it's interesting that you compare FD's approach to Tariq, because I believe their views are dramatically different when it comes to how they see/value non FBA people. Not to mention I seem to recall a time where FD thoroughly criticized Tariq and his peers. So it's a bit surprising if what you say is true.
Where are you seeing AA's attempting to "monopolise" the black experience? Do you have any examples of this in your real personal life? Is your only point of reference Tariq Nasheed?
I feel like Kidology is one of the first RUclipsrs that have changed the way I approach issues since ContraPoints, and I mean that in the best way possible
Food for thoughts
I feel exactly the same
Kid! Kid! As a fellow South African I finally realised your accent is a combination of white South African and British 😌
Shes South African? Oh I didn't know
It took me half a second of my first time hearing her to know its roots exactly, my Mom being a combination of white South African and *posh southern British.
White South Africans piss me off
🎯😉
While we’re on the subject of accents… slightly silly question, but in my Scottish brain, I can’t tell whether kidology is saying really in a South African accent or rarely in an English accent? Kind of impacts the meaning of the sentence..
F.d. Signifier is absolutely wrong sometimes, but saying that Obama was an awful president but did a couple things that are decent, I don’t think is a hot take or hypocritical. Not everything he did was bad, which is to be expected from a democratic president, but some things were awful, and the bad outweighed the good, which also to be expected from a liberal democratic president, not a progressive president. Even trump, was overall a bad president with the bad outweighing the good, but a few things he did were good like giving money to American citizens during the p*ndemic.
censoring pandemic 😭 but I agree I don't think it would be hypocritical if Biden suddenly passed full student loan forgiveness and leftists were happy about it
Yeah, as someone who frequents organizations with undocumented folks and DACA recipients, Obama is not a crowd favorite in that leftist space. Of course it could be worse, that doesn’t mean things weren’t bad for a lot of people.
Right, like Obama expanded home loan programs but also spearheaded the gig economy that leaves many underemployed, esp the economically vulnerable
@@SunflowerfroWhat did Obama do to expand home loans? Too permissive mortgages were the cause of the 2008 financial collapse, which makes me think there was a severe reduction and Obama just returned to base line
I have come back to Kidology's channel every now and again to be challenged by a different perspective that might conflict with my own in the hopes of seeing the holes in some of my own thought process. This video marks the end of me making that sort of effort. I don't want this critique to rude. In the event that Kidology see this, I do not want her to think I'm just here to tear her down. But this is one of the most uncharitable, misleading videos I've seen for a while. She says a blistering number of untrue or true but framed in misleading ways that is blistering.
To be clear, parts of "breadtube" have been incredibly uncharitable to Kidology. I have seen the videos that would turn her against the "clique" that she writes about here. I do not see a bad person making this video, but a human being who has been targeted and is reacting in kind. I think that urge towards reaction causes her to avenues of reasoning that creates a lack of depth that ultimately makes this video pretty bad.
-Starting off the video with a genuine case of academic bullsh*ttery that appears to involve actual embezzlement and using that to frame your video about RUclips creators. These are not the same institutions, they do not have the same processes or cultures. Even if the viewer were to agree with every claim of hypocrisy kidology makes, Hypocrisy is not the same as academic embezzlement that steals millions of dollars. This framing immediately associates the following subjects of the video with the worst possible duplicity through association. "IF this man was a grifter, surely these other people are too". Deeply unfair and uncharitable.
-In the first 10 minutes, she compares someone taking speaking fees at $20,000.00, presumably as a personal payment since its not specified otherwise, with FD telling someone to DONATE TO A CHARITY before he will come on their stream. Taking a speaking fee as payment for my bank account is not the same as challenging someone to donate to a charity. I feel silly for even having to type this out.
-A caricature with its implied history in print, theatre, and illustration is not exactly the same thing as the word. She shows lack of understanding in her treatment of the word c**n in the same way someone might comment on the surface level uses of the n-word without understanding why the use of the word and its socially acceptable uses has changed.
-I'm tired of writing, but I'd be remiss if I left this out. One of her critiques is "Black leftists like FD have views in the minority of their demographic so they're actually more like white liberals than black americans.". I'm not going to get into the obvious point that number of people who believe something does not speak to the rightness or wrongness of the belief itself. I am simply going to state that Kidology here has done the same thing she accuses these creators of doing, that is saying "You aren't really Black" with extra steps. But she doesn't display any depth of knowledge as to why say a Black Southern Baptist might not identify as "Conservative". Since their beliefs don't fall in line with the statistical averages of the community they comment on, "they aren't black'. Same exact thing you are critiquing them for.
Whenever I try to give a full genuine critique my comment wont' post. Suffice to say, Kidology shows a stunning lack of depth. You will be convinced by this video only if you have a surface level understanding of "whats on the tin" in terms of social demographics, language use, and the collection of creators under the banner "breadtube".
To be crystal clear. I do not stan internet personalities. There is a baseline distrust I cannot shake when I watch an FD or foreign video. There are plenty of criticisms that I can think to level at him and the other personalities Kidology calls "cornbread tube". I do not critisize Kidology out of loyalty to other content creators, because I don't feel loyalty to internet personalities who make their living off of baiting my clicks. I felt second hand infinite cringe at FD's first thumbnail for "Leftist infighting almost killed me", but I find Kidology grasping for a description to make it seem even more grotesque than it already looked even more embarrassing.
It could not be more clear that Kidology doesn't understand the spaces she's talking about beyond the barest minimum that would be conferred by the statistics. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Making a video where that (mis)understanding is the ballast of the arguments is where I stop following.
My main problem is that Kidology's critiques focus only on what's on the tin, but she displays no greater cultural, linguistic, or social understanding beyond that. And She's a smart woman, if she wanted to, I have no doubt she could learn, which makes this video doubly disappointing and honestly kind of gross. If you're only going to "Be political" when its taking uncharitable and not fully thought out pot-shots at leftists you disagree with, just stay a-political. I think something would be lost. I think you're a very insightful person sometimes. But the blindspots and lack of genuine depth when trying to address the topics just makes it painful and misleading to audience members that don't know better.
There are genuine critiques worth making towards Breadtube and Cornbread tube in content if not in structure. This aint it.
Just to be clear here:
-FD, in one of his actual insightful moments, has an entire video where he basically says that "Breadtube" is not a real thing, but an algorithmically curated community that doesn't necessarily really have anything in common beyond what RUclips has deemed monetizable commonality. He literally pins it as curated for the consumption that he speaks out against. And you use the idea as a real thing that exists beyond this and use those fuzzy boundaries to rope in people with very different talking for easy critique. The permeability of the label means that someone can always be found that vaguely fits the criteria and made a target for failing to live up to ideals.
Case in point, the labor issues surrounding child labor and eroding labor rights here in the states affecting poor black and latin communities is something i have seen covered extensively in "breadtube" circles, but here she acts like its a issue that's not spoken of in favor of clickbait. Put as plainly as possible, not true. She has identified certain personalities as "thought leaders" and judged that if they have not spoken on an issue that its gone unaddressed. She is literally using this video to create in the viewers mind an "organizational structure" that can be critiqued based on the way she has structured it in the viewers mind. "Breadtube" is not an organization, it is a nebulous idea of creators that make similar-ish content. FD is not a thought leader, he just has more subs than some creators, but she has used that positioning to frame him and a few others as the leaders of the movement and criticizes everything under that brush.
This is not a good video. It is Kidology being unfairly treated by people, then using the negative feelings that would cause in anyone to rationalize together a list of arguments in video form that are not actually very good. The word "c**n" for example is used colloquially for a black person who has sold out the greater black community for and performs with the intention of making those outside interests comfortable to the detriment of others. It's colloquial use is not the same as the historical implications of a visual caricature whose definition is being read from the Jim Crow museum.
Labor rights erosion and child labor issues were absolutely covered by "Breadtubers" that Kidology didn't comment on, and just because these "thought leaders" haven't said something doesn't mean its gone unaddressed in similar circles.
Grossly misleading, superficial, uncomprehending commentary. If you want to really learn about the spaces you're commenting on, I absolutely welcome you to gain a deeper understanding. If you aren't going to try and then are going to make a piece like this, stay on that side of the pond and stick to "A-political" content. Please.
Genuine question: wasn't the charity mentioned by FD Signifier tied to him somehow?
Great comment and valid criticism.
Kidology's individualism definitely puts her at a disadvantage to contextualize cultural critique, especially when it's American. I disagree that racism, transphobia, and Islamophobia cannot be separated in the way that she argues for.
I was incredibily hurt and dissapointed when she stated that Wadea el Fayoume was killed in part due to "calls to violence"?? Coming from the Left? To completely ignore the history of blatant Islamophobia was hard to watch. Mainstream media has used Islamophobia to demonize Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and brown Americans in general. I assumed someone as smart as Kidology would know better than to use the hate crime against a child to prove a point about leftist content?? Very weird behavior.
amazing comment, absolutely spot on.
It feels somewhat odd listening to this for as long as I have, partially because when Kidology steps outside of the specific current-day youtuber-topics she's wrong at several points in the video.
As one specific example, "F.D. comparing Reagan to Obama made me think something was off, because Obama had a program that allowed him to get a mortgage" seems ignorant of the fact that there were mortgage-assistance programs passed under Reagan, with the biggest being the Housing and Community Development Act of 1987. It consolidated a number of bills that were percolating throughout the 80s and helped secure mortgage rates and practices into the 90s and 00's.
Especially when F.D. casually references there being studies analyzing Obama and Reagan policies and finding them to be comparable. Because there were. There were a number of them, with Obama citing Reagan as a role model as a president.
It's not a small thing, and it's similar to "Breadtube came about out of frustration with Obama's policies" origin story. Sure, plenty were frustrated with Obama, but it was, explicitly at the time, an attempt to push back against the swarm of Anti-SJW and right-wing propagandists that flooded youtube in the early and mid 2010's. Shitstains like Sargon of Akkad, Undoomed, and the general "yell at you from behind a cartoon as to why feminism/the left-wing/democrats are THE WORST".
The section 'CornbreadTube is so white' was fire 🔥
Ngl
I have been here since your 2nd video and have gone back and forth on agreeing and disagreeing with you on multiple topics (even dropped off for a few months because I was uncomfortable/irritated with some of your approach). However I will say, in all those instances, you have struck me as a very sincere person who means and believes what she says and is brave enough to say it. And, in that way, have always kept me coming back as I was intrigued and felt that I could fully engage with your videos in good faith (even if combatively at times).
That being said, I think this is one of your best videos to date, original and well-structured. Thank you for making me catch some of my biases.
its good to be uncomfortable- i agree with them on the take that a lot of breadtube has been recylcling the same thoughts from years ago. Nothing new is being added to the general conciousness, therefore no one else will adopt the cause. There was quite a bit I disagreed with, but im still digesting the video so i cant quite format those thoughts. But to be uncomfortable is to be yourself, you do not need these people to spoonfeed you politics. You are living proof of it, you experiance it. And you will grow because of it.
If you want to make a difference in the world, you have to make people who don't agree with you want to change sides. Making someone feel dumb is the exact way to stop them from critically engaging with ideas. Awesome vid.
I strongly disagree.
Most successful liberation movements in the world didn't wait for people to change their minds.
Here's how it seems to work based on history: material conditions change, THEN people change their minds about ideas.
@@elijahanderson3288 Are you conflating all "making a difference" with "liberation movements" here? Plus, what do "material conditions" have to do with making people feel dumb?
I know you're talking generally, but I just want to add that this approach has its limits, and in an era where conservatives are openly saying "slavery was good sometimes", and making abortion illegal in the name of Christ, we have to have multiple strategies going, and sometimes being a good faith actor is too slow of a process or won't even work.
@@elijahanderson3288 We're not talking about liberation movements we're talking about how to have conversations with regular ass people. If you want to start a movement you have to actually go outside and organize yall. It's not gonna happen when a videoessay hits a certain view count.
@@elijahanderson3288you’re correct, but you’re forgetting that violence is always apart of it. You can’t massively overhaul society or culture without forcing others to participate.
I think something that may be causing confusion here is that you use the terms "leftist" and "liberal" or even "radical liberal" (which I would call a contradiction in terms) somewhat interchangeably.
As a rule of thumb, liberals may be socially progressive, but they still fundamentally believe in capitalism, while leftists do not.
It's true that leftists can be prone to infighting and exaggeration of harm; however, a police abolitionist (like F.D.) criticizing someone who supports the police is not an example of that. That is a fundamental disagreement.
Similarly, Noah Samsen's video criticising debate bros, "How to Know Things on the Internet" is another fundamental disagreement about ways of forming knowledge, that online debate is a format more akin to bloodsport than discussion.
I certainly won't defend the rather savage reaction F.D. posted to your "We need to do better" video; I think that type of dunking is unproductive, and I agree with the Leftist Cooks' excellent video on the subject.
When you hear leftists refer to liberals or moderates with disdain or called them "brainwashed," I understand feeling insulted. If I could suggest a resource to help clarify why they make these types of statements, it would be Manufacturing Consent by Edward S. Herman & Noam Chomsky. The short version is that governments and media intentionally create narratives for the public that ultimately end up perpetuating great injustices worldwide while largely suppressing the possibility of public outrage or action to prevent them.
Cause she’s a lib herself who doesn’t understand anything about the world, thank god someone else in these comments whose read a book.
Oh thank god you recommended Manufacturing Consent dude, many people haven't read it and it tends to go under the radar. I suspect Kidology doesn't know much about it either, considering how she still isn't a leftist, I tend to find anyone who reads Chomsky becomes a leftist immediately and if they don't they're just fucking stupid lol. We need more voices like yours in the comment section, and we need more intelligent creators willing to tell liberals (evil) that they are the same as conservatives.
what is the functional difference between a lib and a conservative, other that social progressivism 💀
Yeah, that chomsky that simps for ukraine today.
@@jellophant9716thanks for picking a self defeating strategy.
I am a 45 year old Marxist with decades of political activism behind me and Bread Tube means nothing to me. Interesting video 👍🏾
That's great
Teach me your ways sir!!
What are you doing here
@@___.51 Chilling
@@kilgoretrout413bing chilling🤙 🍦
Criticizing essayists for selling out as a segway into your ad read is so wild lmao
this whole video has so many contradictions i'm honestly in disbelief ngl
Pay closer attention. In the video she constantly says there's nothing wrong with "getting your bag." She says she's a capitalist. The criticism is that these "anti-capitalist" video essayists hold these big believes that staunchly condemn capitalism and appeal to radically changing the system but in their personal practice not only do they do nothing anti-capitalist, they participate in it in the most unapologetic and biggest ways they could. They conform and fully embrace it. They don't go live in communes or participate in activism meant to dismantle the system. They are unapologetic hypocrites that pretend not to be. That's the criticism here.
@@danielsantiago4490 ah, I see you're against capitalism, yet here you are using a product that was manufacture with labor and purchased with capital to watch this video!
wE lIvE iN a SoCiEtY
The problem is that she's being hypocritical for ragging on these other creators for trying to make a living in a society that requires them to do so, and then acting like you can't possibly be against the system that they are forced to participate in, while also being a part of that system (by virtue of the fact that no one gets to not be a part of capitalism)
So realistically, the entire premise of her point is hypocritical at best, and woefully disingenuous and falsely equated at worst. If she's going to call out an entire non existent group of people for behaviours that really aren't a product of their choices/actions but of the society we exist in, then no I'm sorry, you don't get to call the others out for doing exactly that.
I have no problems with ad reads. Creators deserve to eat and have a roof over their heads. But nah, if you're going to be so hyper-vigilant and call out people unfairly for their participation, then you had better be living by the example you expect others to live by.
@@kezia8027 Firstly, awfully presumptuous of you to assume that I'm against capitalism (I don't think I let that be known anywhere in my previous text). I'm not against capitalism on a fundamental level so I don't know who that first part of your reply was meant for.
Secondly, yeah, no one said anything to contradict your explanation of how the system (SoCiEtY, as you put it) works. That's not what's being refuted here. It's one thing if you are someone who is force to participate in the economic system for survival with no real options to engage in another form of economy that aligns with your ethics. It's an entirely different ball game when you're an "anti-capitalist" (like many of these creators) and engage, enable and uphold the systems or mechanisms of the worst aspects that the system has to offer (i.e. decadence of the upper classes). Consuming high end cars, buying mansions sure doesn't seem like something people "forced" to participate in the system would do.
As someone doing schooling in fashion design and textiles, I'm acutely aware of the damage some of these big name companies (like Dior and many others) have caused not just in a social or economic sense but also environmentally (don't get me started with fast fashion). The fact that that content creator has the "fast fashion bad" and the "high end companies are problematic" takes but still took that opportunity with Dior anyway is insane. That's not being "forced" to participate in the system, at that point it's fully embracing and enabling it when people like her have the option not to.
The whole point (or dare I say nuance) here is that some of these creators, not only do they have the option and power to choose brands or alternatives that align with their ethics but in spite of that they still choose the options that are the most antithetical to their supposed ethics. Money is power in this world and some of these people have enough of that power to make work that'll slowly move the world to the shape they say is best (according to them) but no.
Some people out there live outside the system. Some people have started communes where they produce their own food, shelter, etc. (and they ain't even rich). Some people put their money where their mouth is, these people don't. They're like preachers that speak with vitriol against same sex marriage (for example) but then get caught in all male orgy. But in this case it's worse because they showcase how staunch their hypocrisy is and then pretend like it's not a contradiction. They are THE people that have the access to lead by example but no.
I was gonna comment but this comment hit the nail on its head criticizing the same thing ur doing is amazing this shit has to be performance art
The emptiness of this videos arguments is really hitting me in waves.
Kidology here uses the argument that since "Breadtubers" do not radically act against living in a capitalism system by doing something like joining a commune they are hypocrites or somehow otherwise insincere. This is a sentiment that has been so thoroughly mocked that its been memed under the idea "You own an i-phone, so you can't hate capitalism. Checkmate communist". This line of argumentation is also used to imply that making videos as a means of protest is inherently insincere because of the monetary structures around it and the fact that it is not "real activism".
Its a terribly incomplete thought process. Firstly, the means to feed, house ourselves and innovate exist outside of a system wherein shareholders or other private persons own those greater community means in private. The knowledge and incentives to produce lumber for housing or eat exist independently of someone needing to own the land of the house or the lumber, or someone needing to own the lot for a dwelling.
You might as well be saying "You don't think we should have a king? Who will look after your security, or make decisions for the kingdom then serf? Checkmate anti-royalist!". The means for arms and public defense, like food and housing, can exist independently of the governing structure. This is such a bad argument/line of thinking.
Now lets talk about "Luxury Beliefs". Now a luxury belief is something that someone has to be in a position of privilege to believe/not question. They hold it from a position of luxury and as a result do not hold it as a means of pragmatic day to day life. I would personally argue that the position "We can find a way to meet our needs without this specific structure of private ownership (Capitalism)" is not a luxury belief. Instead it is a statement like the paragraphs above this. The means for food, housing and security exist independently of the governing structure that organizes it.
You know what are luxury beliefs often espoused by the wealthy? Everyone has the same 24 hours in the day, no matter what circumstances of birth might inhibit the opportunities each person has. The world is a meritocracy and the people at the top are only there because of their hard work. The world has completely hit a factory reset and everything that happened since the 1960's happened in a vacuum of culture where everything was fair for everyone from that point on. These are beliefs that are intended to keep the holder from challenging or questioning the system. They are meant to justify or legitimize people who are already comfortable. Juxtapose them with the idea "Maybe we can structure things differently and help more people" and tell me with a straight face that the latter is a belief held from luxury. "We should try and distribute wealth and access more equally even if its painful" is the same as "nothing needs to change because its fair how it is."
People who disagreed with common narratives existed before the internet. 100 years ago public opinion was almost completely shaped by who owned a few big outlets like newspapers and that morphed into who owned a few cable networks and tv channels. That monopoly absolutely created the perception of consensus, and famously (mis)informed the public on a variety of topics depending on the wants of those owners. Bread-tube making youtube videos serves the same purpose to smaller audiences. It is a means by which people come in contact with ideas that are outside of what was once presented as "common sense" on corporately owned media. Its by no means a replacement for real activism, but it is not somehow invalid because someone made a youtube video and made a dollar from it. In fact they are doing exactly the same thing you found a reason to do, attempting to sway public thought. Media shapes opinion, opinion shapes politics. It's not bad just because you don't personally approve of it as a means of activism.
To be completely clear Kidology is Black. Blackness is not something that is determined by political beliefs and I won't gatekeep based on that monicker, but watching her reaction to FD/co use the word "c**n" without a clear understanding of what the word can mean beyond a Jim Crow Museum definition was like the many times I've seen white friends wholly misunderstand things in Black spaces, and still confidently make commentary about them. I will never say that Kidology is not black. It's not really a choice any of us have. I will say that her actual understanding of some of the spaces she's critiquing are just as poorly informed as people who are identifiably not in background or culture. And thats fine. But then either learn, or don't comment on it.
I'm not trying to come after you or drag you down Kidology, but this video has terrible arguments.
Good observations. Also, didn't really like her pretending that what Israelis are going through is on par with the atrocities Palestinians are seeing.
I am a bit unconvinced by the argument that we aren't forced to live within capitalism. If your proposed alternatives require a self sustaining commune or something of the like - thats completely out of the question for any normal person unless they not only participate in capitalism, but succeed at it. Going with your argument, living a lavish lifestyle while preaching the virtues of anti consumerism is a fair critique when talking about creators but for a lot of people there really is no choice. Plenty would choose to live outside the rat race if it was a viable option, if for no other reason than being poor sucks. That's kind of why capitalism works. Hypocrisy in already wealthy creators not practicing what they preach doesn't mean all that much when you're talking about what an average person can do. If proposing outrageous methods of achieving change is a luxury for the wealthy than everyone else shouldn't be held responsible for existing within the de facto framework even if its one they're critical of.
I also didn't appreciate the "but you participate in society, hypocrite" angle she took regarding anticapitalism, though I liked other bits of the video. Particularly, I didn't like the implication anticapitalism could only be consistent as a stereotypical commune, which you also pointed to. I personally have no interest in living an agrarian rural lifestyle (I've already lived the rural part before), but maybe reorganizing the corporations and companies that create the modern world into democratic worker coops would be super cool/based and something worth working towards? Or starting up new enterprises within those industries using those models? That's where I'd like to put my efforts, and that's certainly a consistent way to work within Capitalism toward Socialism.
wait, I'm confused
Nothing you said counters her main point, which is "they are now rich, why don't they NOW lead by example when they also have all the means to do so, while requiring much poorer people to take action?". Yeah, those people mostly succeeded at capitalism. And have neither openly changed their anti-capitalist views, nor acted upon them. But they still profit on them.
thats why I specified which argument I was replying to in the first sentence @@theliberation9061
Your specification is something you read into, it has no independent existence @@baileyayyy5085
You're going to make a lot of enemies with this video and I love how you thrive in the just being a shit disturber, just by pointing out obvious hypocrisy that everyone else can easily see. This video is going to be a turning point in the political RUclips sphere. The history books will commemorate this day as breadtube before Kidology (BT-BK) and breadtube after Kidology (BT-AK). Hopefully the backlash will be worth the attention.
“shit disturber” 💀
Love this comment.
That’s something I’ve always loved about Kidology. She is not playing the game, she is stating her arguments regardless on who gets offended
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣@@CharlieTheChap
She never seemed to address why it's bad for average listeners to adhere to breadtube's philosophies. She rails against the hypocrisy that the "thought leaders" are guilty of, but she never delved into why it's dangerous for them to spread their supposedly bad ideas to the average consumers of the content. How are "luxury beliefs" detrimental for society writ large to adhere to? How is caring about the climate, egalitarianism, and accountability bad or dangerous ideas for average working people to prioritize?
I really appreciated this insight! Definitely have felt a lot of this. I will say as a trans person the term "transgenderism" is. Kind of nonsense? It presents transness itself as an ideology, instead of a description of a state of being. You can certainly have ideologies around transness, but I've only heard "transgenderism" be applied to the existence of trans people. If anything, the term politicizes transness where it doesn't always have to be
I'm also trans so when she complained of being criticized for anti-trans dog whistles in her previous video, I went and looked, and can confirm they're there
it would be a terrible shame if she actually dealt with real or reasonable criticisms or took ownership of reading a lot of Unherd and other reactionary media and obv agreeing with all of it. but no.
Oh it's the same thing Germany did to my people, conflating our religion and ethnicity to blame us for the treaty of versailles
@@junipere yep, i just watched the other video too, and yeah they're there. it was a hard video to watch. i hope she will address these reasonable criticisms of her videos.
i think she makes good points but she has a blind spot with transgender issues.
You say this, but wasn't the 90s filled with politicizing of the Gay Agenda? I feel like anything that isn't apart of the Anglo sphere will be politicized by someone
There's definitely an argument regarding leftist creators taking sponsorships, but only if those sponsorships are having a material impact on their output (specifically censoring their anti-capitalist content). People being sponsored by Squarespace, or signing with a modelling agency, is not at all inherently hypocritical. Organised labour is about challenging the exploitation of labour, not for labour to stop working for exploiters, for very obvious reasons if given any serious thought.
I find Kidology's use of the word "capitalist" negligently conflatse the 2 common uses of the word, and a 3rd use that is just categorically incorrect - those being:
A. Owner of capital
B. A proponent of capitalism as an ideal system.
C. Labour that works for Capitalists.
Sure, B needs to be challenged rhetorically, but they're not the enemy of left politics, only A is. And even then, its not the A capitalists themselves who are actually the enemy, just the system that inevitably makes them act in their class interest. For example, Kidology said at one point that she is a capitalist, but I'm not sure if she owns any capital. C has never and will never be what a capitalist is in left thought, but unfortunately her key criticism in the latter half of the video is that Breadtubers are C.
I'm not saying this as a Breadtube stan (I've not even heard of half of the examples, only a few of the ones I have heard of do I consume content from, and even fewer still would I consider myself a 'fan' of). She's absolutely right about the drama farming and tendency for clique-y behaviour, but all of her other criticism is shallow or just plain wrong - based, it seems, on a strawman of what left thought actually is and says.
A full FIVE minute Ad-Read. This video doesn't even have chapter markings so you can properly skip the ad. Ironic that a video about sellouts in the community contains a 5 minute ad. Timecode for the end of the ad read is 10:41
She's gotta eat somehow man. The only way a lot of people have the time/money to spend making 90 minute researched video essays is if they make money off them.
I see youre point about the irony, but this does not make her a hypocrite.
@@coricognitions So have all the other creators. And maybe I'm not that deep into breadtube, but I've never seen any creators call for radical lifestyle change while partaking in capitalistic exploitation. The worst so far seems to be shilling luxury cars.
I honestly just stopped watching at that point. I'm all for critiquing the people I get a lot of my info from, but when the first 10 minutes are disingenuous, irrelevant anecdotes meant to imply a relation where there is none, and a 5 minute ad read....
I've always avoided drama/callout vids so I don't know what has happened exactly, but this video has really just seemed to me like someone who is *reacting* to pressure, not someone with a valid point/criticism. Not saying there aren't valid criticisms to be made, but this vid ain't it. This is a callout/drama vid masquerading as critique.
@@coricognitionsbut you can say the same for the breadtubers. You can call out sweatshops and run an ad for squarespace without it being a contradiction. Unless you run ads for the same exploitation you condem, which isn’t typical isn’t as simple as running ads on the video
I agree with much of everything said here. For me, Breadtube got stale because instead of taking the next step in either demonstrating or explaining praxis, they stuck with making writing and shooting video essays. The essayists mostly dove deeper into the sociological and cultural ideas of the ideology rather than, as you said, talk about the money or practice. I don't need Another video explaining feminism or gender critiques or why capitalism is bad. I've got all that down pat, what next?
That's the problem, it doesn't seem like the thought leaders know how exactly to explain or practice next steps which exist outside of their recording studio. I feel like I've reached the terminus of their ideas and I'm left trying to figure out how to be a good principled leftist in a world that is hostile and runs counter to my ideology. That's okay though, I've learned I get through issues better figuring it out for myself.
My advice for next steps: Volunteer. Look for a National Labor Federation org running if you're lucky enough to live in a city with one and volunteer there. Otherwise, attend schoolboard meetings when you run into their pronouncement, join a faith org and volunteer for their outreach programs, explore your local living environment and figure out what ails your community so you can then figure out how to apply your ideology in ways that will have a direct impact on your community. It's just way too much burden to try and make the world a Marxist utopia, so start small, start with talking to your neighbors.
I know this is always the advice given, but that's for good reason. When you explore realms of society that aren't about taking labor for a wage, it's eye-opening to what can (and can't) still be accomplished by other intrinsic motivators like faith, mutual interest, community-building, and helping the disadvantaged. It's vital for the ideology to not just talk but also walk, strut, move, and Take a Stand. Otherwise, communism and general leftist principles will forever remain the ideology for academics while ironically alienating the very people the ideology was built to help. We gotta be better.
I don't know if I agree with you fully about how you portrayed luxury activism. It's definitely real, and can be seen in things like: "Buying plastic at all is deeply immoral; how could you?" and such. But I don't think that supporting sexual minorities or Palestine are good examples of luxury activism. Also, Freud's science was pretty...questionable. But I agree with this video in many ways, and I'm glad that you put it out. Very interesting and I'll look into your other videos
as questionable and obsolete Freuds investigation was, i think that example presented reflects well why theres so much infighting within the left. Although im aware that is based on a nearly 100 years study and im glad to see a replicated example with more scientific rigor and adapted to current times.
Well said. I also don’t see how caring about climate change is seen as a luxury belief, when it literally affects everyone (I understand her point, but the example she used was odd)
I agree with you
Kid, you are 100% political, implying you’re a-political is obviously untrue. You cover niche political topics most people don’t even know or care about. I’d argue this channel is hyper political and fixated on cultural politics.
I did not expect this video to be what it was. I was confused even half way through which side you were on. I am subscribed to almost every single channel you mentioned - I am an avid bread tube consumer but honestly this take was very balanced, nuanced, well researched and oddly comforting? Youve got my subscribe girly. This was truly brilliant work. Youve changed the way I view the world in this 1.5 hr video for the better!
Haha, I’m the same, I thought she was speaking as a part of Breadtube for the first half of the video
ContraPoints and Jesse Gender (back when JG was at like 5k subs) were my entryways into video essays, but I've felt an itch for the types of videos that Contra and PhilosophyTube made. Like, they left us wondering "could more people make videos in this style?" and channels like Mina and others were like bait to my braincell that wanted more video essays.
To stay within metaphor, those channels are like white bread. Tastes good, but doesn't satiate long term.
Your channel is like whole grain bread. I can watch your videos once, and get all the points, even giving me ideas for my own videos.
ContraPoints is like a buffet. It's pompous and contains so much. But you can't always get a buffet, that's something I personally get once a year max.
This was so refreshing to watch. Taking notes for my own videos. Keep it up, and stay strong!
Jesse gender literally just did a video about how trans women somehow, magically, aren't biologically male and NEBULA actually put this pseudoscience on their streaming platform.
Food for thoughts, indeed
It's annoying to see anti-capitalists and the rich be self aware while living lavishly and in luxury and in luxury careers. Yes, we are all forced to live in and engage in our capitalistic government in our nation of the u.s. but people like Mina Le are not living humbly by any means, her decor and place of living is expensive. She lives/frequently visits Paris. She is giving Marie Antoinette
there are other fashion youtubers that actively do more than her, some are talented fashion designers that aren't sponsored by luxury corporations that show us their creations ans even reutilize old fabrics, and some participate in high fashion without being so hypocritical by actually doing interviews and researching designers that are, in fact, in decent positions in the fashion industry, but aren't working for the major luxury corporations. We can now see high fashion shows and works from youtube, something that wasn't commom even during the last decade. When Mina puts herself inside the luxury fashion industry, she doesn't even research and interview, she just... vlogs. Nothing different from the average influencer. The very LEAST she could do is use her influence to uplift independent designers, but i don't even see her actively doing that. As someone who used to really like her content (now i just find it a bit boring tbh), i'd say that she is one of the creators that deserves the most criticism because being so anti fast fashion while not helping anyone to engage more with the resources that create a more sustainable and less elitist fashion industry is too hypocritical and out of touch. For someone with the level of influence that she acquired, it's not enough to just say "thrift and buy vintage (if you can)". Show independent designers. Show good online thrift stores that are not sponsored. Show companies that deal with recycling synthetic fabric, as opposed to the ones that keep producing synthetic fabric. I don't know, DO something. Like, i don't see why someone at her level can't do more than just commentary on the latest thing that happened on social media. That's when i start to become cynical about the whole thing
@@Lv-sg4zp could you drop the names of the fashion youtubers you mean? I want to look into them. Thank you (:
Being anti capitalist means being poor and downtrodden I guess? I personally think it's better that people of such influential status advocate for these radical ideas. Because they have the voice that hundreds of thousands of people will listen to. Who cares what they live like on a personal level? As long as they advocate for based leftist ideas, then all power to them!
thank you for bringing up Mina Le cause I've had a problem with but never could put my finger on it!
@@megsley so your problem with Mina Le is that she’s a hypocrite? That’s pretty lame.
As a leftist i agree with the majority of the points brought up in the video, there are definitely some big problems on the online left but i didn't really buy the whole "priviledged beliefs" bit, i don't cosnider it hypocritical to be wealthy and anti capitalist, these aren't mutually exclusive because A: we live in a capitalist society, there has never been a true socialist country so there is no alternative but to live within the system as best as we can. and B: wealth doesn't equal capitalism, capitalism is about a mode of production, the reason why we are against it is because on most cases it requires exploitation and guarantees inequality. but if you just get a sponsorship, or patreon or donations, there basically no exploitation taking place
Come on CUBA is right there.....I would say that patreon is different than sponsored content With partreon you have a genuine audience that wants to see you make things from your point of view (as shown by how small the donations tend to be per heard). Sponsored content is much more corrupting because their endorsement of a product is tied to the money from the company as opposed to genuine interest. A VPN sponsorship is rather inoffensive because I have no trouble believing that a youtuber has privacy concerns but a lot of the other services are just selling pure junk.
Do the breadtubers give their employees ownership shares in the channel? If not, they are capitalists.
Here is the thing then:
If you admit yourself that there has been no proper Socialist societies before and any attempts at it claim to not represent the Socialism that you proclaim to believe in, how could you be then so sure that such economic system is actually going to benefit the population in the real world in practice.
On paper, literally any theory is glossy on paper but the world is complex, contradicting and extremely messy.
As Kidology said in the video, the fact that anti-capitalists can make so much money and accrued a lot of income and wealth through complaining about the very system that they proclaim to be against, because of the system shows that capitalism is here to stay. The whole point of radicalism that the act of the radical change is achieved through hard resilience and living through that reality in the dominant system that you proclaim to dismantle.
This is the problem I have with Socialists. You are very very quick to say that Socialism has never been properly applied (which I dispute) but then you are so confident that such ideology in practice would better serve the needs of the people than our current neoliberalist framework.
For example, our National Health System in the UK is probably one of the most Socialist healthcare system in the world which was introduced in 1948 but I as a taxpayer who pays into that system finds it really hard to be convinced that I am getting my money's worth compared to a more Bismarckian insurance-based healthcare models seen in France, Japan, Switzerland and Singapore. Time and time again the rankings have put these healthcare systems way above the UK's Socialist model in terms of the quality of care, the speed of care and public satisfaction.
@@inbb510 I'd say the issue here is that the "online left" like most of the internet is very USA-centric. They (and everyone that they are arguing with) don't know the history of other countries (especially ones that are not very powerful) and they don't know what is going on in any other country (even ones that have a majority English population and even if the country has been a Military focus). There are examples of functional socialism in the modern day (Bolivia, Argentina, Vietnam, and Cuba) there are temporary examples of functional socialism in this century (Ecuador and Brazil) and there are historic examples of functional socialism (Yugoslavia and Chile). The PRC and the USSR have there own success that need to be understood in the context of what their countries were like PRIOR to their revolutions. Note that acknowledging ANY of these successes would involve giving credit to people from "third world" countries and having a nuance and context heavy understanding of history. Note again that the takeaway is that socialism is a decades long project that involves a lot of work and personal sacrifice.
@@inbb510 I'm not a socialist and forgive me for using philosophytube's healthcare video as my main source but isn't the NHS extremely underfunded compared to those other countries? Even raising the budget is only marginally covering for the undercuts of the previous decade
Why do we spend so much time discussing and critiquing the purpose of leftist youtube videos ("you're not changing the world, you're just making money") but right wing videos don't have to go through the same level of scrutiny? Just because leftists are critiquing capitalism they have to be radical and 'move to cuba or to a commune' - they can never win, because youtube is a capitalist platform. But how would they reach their audience in 2023? Shouting through a megaphone in the streets? I think breadtube was necessary and useful back in the 2016 rise of the alt-right when online fascists would make these simple-sounding assertions "rhodesia was a paradise until the whites left" "blacks never invented the wheel" "if jews had guns the holocaust wouldn't have happened" that actually need an extensive knowledge of history/politics/geography to refute (hence the 1hr video essays). Nowadays politics are just not the same so that need is gone. And then you criticise Tara for saying she doesn't want to be associated with the term breadtube cause it's elitist and limiting, but that's exactly the point you were trying to make earlier in the video - so breadtube creators themselves are aware of these criticisms and they're honest about who they are, they're not going to change the world through their youtube videos, they're just doing their job. What is your alternative? Cause critiquing everything that is wrong without offering an alternative is just populism. Do you want left-tube to be more radical? Would you support them if they were? Cause you talk about yourself as a moderate. Is critiquing police in 2020 after they summarily executed a black man in broad daylight 'petty bourgeoisie racism', because the black community when polled say they support the police as an institution? Complaining about 'anti-white racism' and defending the police is what makes people compare you to Candace Owens - but I imagine that, like bread-tubers, you have your own audience to pander to, and given your 'im a female incel' videos I can imagine what kind of audience you have gathered here.
Thank you so much for sharing what I’ve been feeling not only with this video but how reactionary people are with lefttube. Sometimes I feel like we will never evolve because we just want to dunk on each other so fast, in yet the rightubers will co-sign the most outrageous thoughts across the spectrum just to be in solidarity. We need solidarity in leftist spaces.
I can agree with some of your points for sure! I don’t think she actually believes she is an incel or a moderate. Those are the words a lot of extreme leftist are giving her. I do believe that most of her beliefs are left leaning and based on empathetic morality, however, like you, I do wonder why there is so much criticism when In reality issues like capitalism, racism, sexism etc.. do exist and why scrutinize breadtube for bringing up these topics. There should be nothing wrong with spreading factual history instead of hateful bigotry. Shit “I’d do it to for a check” if I’d left my corporate job to be apart of a industry that pays me better. We all need to survive, and I don’t think any of these RUclipsrs would call themselves perfect or above others.
What are you on about. Literally every video is some silly attempt to do a take down of a right winger "why Matt walsh is stupid", "why jordan peterson doesnt understand xxxyyxyxx", LOL thats all leftist youtubers do. Stupid 1 hour long videos critiquing people as if anyone cares.
Of the left hates everything about the West, then why dont you all move to the socialist utopia of Venezuela and leave capitalism for everyone who enjoys it. We all win.
Literally, the fact she popped up a Candace Owens clip when she spoke about "accepting other POC perspectives" like ???????? Are we normalizing fuckking Candace Owens?????
I don't hate FD, but he's really shitty when it comes to discussing black identity. He's of the 'I don't think black people are a monolith, but' camp, which is similar to saying 'I'm not a racist, but.' Additionally, he's irresponsible with the power he wields. I've always respected Total Biscuit for being one of the first people to point out how response videos inherently lead to abuse, harassment, and flagging. However, I can't get behind the term 'luxury beliefs.' I've seen this term used among conservatives, and it's essentially a rebranding of something that has been common for a long time, attacking liberals by pointing out that certain groups they claim to support disagree with them on certain issues. But, what's the significance of that? It's a largely meaningless term and can be defused by simply pointing out that you don't have to agree with someone to claim to be working toward their benefit. If it weren't a term used exclusively to refer to liberals and the left, it would quickly fall out of favour.
Back in the day, people would point out that Michael Moore earned insane amounts of money despite his constant anti-corporate stances. However, if Moore were secretly funding Republican candidates to lower his taxes, there might be a valid point to make. But it's better to critique his actual movies, "Bowling for Columbine,' which has numerous factual errors and some highly manipulative editing", rather than demanding he give away more of his money or move to Cuba, that's what the government is for.
I really don't like Hasan, and yes, it's questionable to promote supercars, but the concept of 'luxury beliefs' is something I still can't get behind, it really just feels like a new branding pasted on to a very boring conservative talking point.
When it comes to other aspects of the video, I largely agree. However, it's also not a new phenomenon. I remember Thunderf00t, an 'Anti-SJW sceptic,' leaving the community after several members went on a livestream to mock a feminist who was killed by her boyfriend. The line 'feminist got triggered' received a lot of laughs.
Later on, Kraut, another 'Anti-SJW sceptic,' was essentially driven out for making videos going after the amount of racism that was being allowed and promoted in that circle.
Online political communities tend to become quite toxic because certain creators become untouchable, and certain people must be defended and supported due to reasons like 'speaking truth to power' or 'being on the right side.' The whole reason many radical figures tend to thrive is that they provoke the right people, and making the enemy angry becomes the most important thing.
Tbh I've just stopped listening to 'leftist platforms' virtually full stop now. As much as a lot of my country has a worrying reality of fascist ideologies now normalised after decades of progress, I've found that of the occasional outspoken self-proclaimed leftists in a sea of unthinking Piers Morgan/Daily Mail readers I come across in my life, every single time, those leftists will eventually look down on me and subscribe to classic right-wing 'yOu'Re jUsT nOt wOrKiNg hArD eNoUgH' narrative and distance themselves from me as soon as they find out I'm poor, that I grew up on a council estate, that I live on a council estate, that I live on a council estate with my Mum at 25 (this is pretty normal these days unfortunately, but a lot of leftists live in an upper-middle class bubble and aren't really aware this is reality for most of the country), and often they've praised me for being hardworking and smart before finding this out! It's like they can't handle the realisation that not everyone gets inheritance and connections from their parents, nor the reality that the only difference between them and poor people isn't their own intellect and/or skills, but inherited privilege, or at most, being in the right place at the right time. They cannot handle realising that someone with the same, if not, greater capabilities and levels of consciousness as themselves could resort to drugs (both consuming and selling), alcoholism, theft, cigarettes, fast food, internet/video game addiction, frivolous spending, prostitution (both paying or selling), etc if living conditions are bad enough (I'm not saying that I do all of those things, though I have certainly done some, and I'm not arguing against personal responsibility either, I've done things I'm not proud of and put my hands up, however when your life has enough suffering, you NEED a way out, real or artificial, or even permanent...).
Wanna hear the kicker? Most people I know who buy into hateful right-wing agendas don't look down on me in this way despite the narratives they speak alluding to the fact they should. They will say some hateful shit, but then invite me to hang out with them despite knowing my situation 80% of the time. With leftists, that's just never happened, but in good faith, I'll give them 10%. It used to be confusing and crazy to me that working class blue collar people by-and-large vote conservative, but nowadays I get it. Ironically right-wingers rarely shut the door on you for being in a bad situation. I'm not saying I'm gonna start voting conservative myself now, but I get it. Leftists overall are the biggest classists going!
I'm not even going to get into how a lot of leftists have a disdain of, and drive to eliminate blue-collar culture, that's a big can of beans that I don't have the energy to type out right now. All I want is for people to not dehumanise others based on their identity, for poverty to be eliminated, for planned-obsolescence/intentional-poor-design to be unviable, whilst being free to enjoy my hobbies. That is it. I don't care about this trendy marketing cult calling itself leftism.
This is definitely something I've noticed in left-wing circles. There's this air of elitism that permeates most discussions on any issue at hand, all tinged with the complete lack of accountability that many leftists have for how their own behaviour can perpetuate systems of oppression and violence.
It's a known fact that, in the US at least, well educated people tend to vote for leftist parties. That is not necessarily a negative thing; in my experience, leftist policies tend to be more rooted in actual science and fact, rather than the pandering to reactionaries that many right wing parties make a habit. Nonetheless, it does create an atmosphere of academic superiority that seems to drive away people who are excluded by the upper-class airs of many vocal leftists.
Instead of addressing this issue, and trying to communicate with those who are not being reached by the almost patronising approach of leftist ideologies, many seem to instead default to 'talking down'. That is, insulting the exact people (usually lower class) who they are supposedly trying to help.
That said, I do think theres a difference between real and perceived classism. I would take the mildly patronising left over the outright dangerously misinformed right any day of the week. Though I can find leftists occassionally ignorant, I do see that there is a clear gulf between the harmfulness of their misguided ideas, and the alternative. The right, focusing on this odd, working class appeal (with politicians coming from cast generational wealth casting themselves as 'everyman' types), pushes such terrifyingly dangerous classist, racist, xenophobic policies (under the noses of their supporters, who in reality stand to lose the most) that I find their threat far greater.
And so, I have to agree with what you've said. I also don't find it overly surprising that much of the working class would vote conservative, as they are often shut out of leftist spaces for not immediately achieving the high standard of scholarship that is demanded. I wish more leftists would understand that people need time to change, and simply insulting someone's decisions, no matter how poor they may be, will not get them on your side.
You'll never find a bigger classiest than a middle class leftist brit
George Orwell wrote about this phenomenon about middle-class socialists all the way back in the 1930s:
"The middle-class I.L.P.’er and the bearded fruit-juice drinker are all for a classless society so long as they see the proletariat through the wrong end of the telescope; force them into any real contact with a proletarian - let them get into a fight with a drunken fish-porter on Saturday night, for instance - and they are capable of swinging back to the most ordinary middle-class snobbishness."
Socialism is literally THE working class blue collar ideology, what the hell are you talking about? Socialism wants what you want, to eliminate a system of exploitation designed to keep black working class life downtrodden. It wants for you to enjoy your hobbies and not have to resort to prostitution or selling drugs. The reactionaries necessitate that the living standards of working class people go down each year. Socialism is classist in it's approach because it thinks that class and the economy of the the ruling class is at the root of the problem.
@@hemanthnair1290 yup, the gated community mindset is rife. Yeah they want to be equal, just equal far away from them, and you can't have interests or hobbies that don't fit their 'soft femme' image or else they'll do what they can to vilify it and get it shut down, or best case scenario water it down severely.
Yeah, for real. I couldn’t even sit through the latest Tara M. video because it felt bloated and exploitative. Half the video was essentially an ad, and the other half felt vain, and made me feel empty to watch.
Personally, I feel like breadtube tapped into something by feeling somewhat educational. Informative of the consequences of our economic system, but now it’s an echo chamber, and I loathe most of it.
I have grown to enjoy videos that discuss philosophy more holistically… and I also like videos that explore other cultures. Foreign man’s collaborations with other BIPOC people to explore inter-racial relationships and prejudices beyond JUST whiteness intrigues me.
Or… fuck all that bs and embrace art essays. They explore cultural perspectives way more honestly.
I also don't agree or align with all your points but just as a consumer of these videos, let's say, a 'fan' of some of these personalities, I do feel like you've pointed out some truths and things that I've felt or questioned that I could not articulate as well as you did. So thank you for articulating these things. I mean, everyone likes the word nuance nowadays, but you have brought up some actual nuance. To not engage in this and dismiss the points you brought up would just be reinforcing the issues you've brought up here. Seeing this video as an attack, or point-scoring (even if the points Kidology made are pointed), would be to absolutely miss the point and not even hear what she is saying.
I can only imagine the wailing and tears as they are pinned down and forced to sign another sponsorship contract from their agent. Those blasted capitalists and their fascist agreements.
Breaks your heart, don't it? 😂
I know she’s painted these Breadtubers as swimming in cash or whatever, but I genuinely believe that most really fucking rely on that shit and do feel bad abt to an extent. Or maybe i just like to believe in people’s integrity. U know, like the shit she & the people who agree w her sm say they believe in.
@@nofriends4784noah samsen has almost a half million subscribers, his videos are all promoted, and he releases around 1 a week. Thats 10k-20k per month just from youtibe adsense - BEFORE brand deals.
Of course there may be some breadthbers with 50k subscribers who would never earn enough to live on that alone, but its certainly not as if the average medium success leftist youtuber is earning less than 50k.
Of coure they could refuse brand deals, spend more time on videos for less money, live more working class lives - if that were important to them.
She literally had a sponsor for this video
@@Aceondafade uh what... She's criticizing the inconsistency of other RUclipsrs preaching about the working class and the evils of capitalism while earning money on ad deals... Kidology herself is openly embracing capitalism.
Contrapoints was my entry drug into BreadTube. F.D. is a coward, always hiding behind his community.
She is missed.
@@KidologyCOshe died?!?!
She's fine just doesn't put out content as much. @@WhiteChocolate74
@@DecembreBlanche oh OK, good. Thanks for answering
@@DecembreBlanche oh man, it's such a shame, especially when she started doing the high production value stuff. I'd just put it on big screen and soak up the glamour.
The reason I don’t like BreadTube is not entirely down to politics, even though that is a factor. The main reason is due to how most of the creators take themselves so seriously, like they’re legitimately changing the world by making this content. People like Hbomberguy, ContraPoints, Philosophy Tube, Big Joel, and Lindsay Ellis take themselves so incredibly seriously. And while I don’t have a problem with these people making money, I find it hypocritical when people who are pro-eat the rich, grift to defend these people who make more money than the average person. It doesn’t help that I find their content to be incredibly boring due to sheer lack of humor in their videos, cause they don’t want to offend anyone, which Lindsay failed on that last point. And yet for some reason, these people are worshipped by the left-wing establishment media. I’ll give these people credit, at least they’re not detestable like say Vaush and Hasan Piker, both of which are legitimately awful human beings.
We're heading into uncharted territory here, where rich people can be anti-capitalist. It's such a spit in the face of people who are genuinely brutalised by this system and really do have a bone to pick with it.
I mean, Friedrich Engels was the son of wealthy Prussian industrialists. Far from uncharted territory, class traitors have always existed (see also Peter Kropotkin, Che Guevara, etc.).
The idea Of class traitors isn't uncharted territory.
Never heard of Friedrich Engels?
To my knowledge, there are actually rich people who have historically and currently are anti Capitalist.
Socialism isn't a poverty cult. When you are anti Capitalist, you are saying you want the "means of production" to be held by the workers (proletariat); rather than the owning class (bourgeoisie).
So, by describing class conflict by this logic; you can be a "rich" worker because you don't own your means of production, nor are you an owner of other people's "means of production". Example: A "rich" (by middle class standards) basketball player.
In that sense, a rich person can operate as an anti-Capitalist; while also not being a hypocrite. However, if the said "rich person" owns someone's "means of production", and are now owners of the labor of employees; then they will be hypocrites.
Well, come to think of it, most working class movement leaders were far from being workers themselves. There was this popular joke about the ruling elites in comunist regimes that their mouths drink champagne and eat caviar in the name of the working masses.
I watch and enjoy a lot of "breadtube" stuff, keeping in mind that, like Kidology said, there's a huge overlap between those spaces and media analysis/review spaces. Definately a byproduct of having so many ex-english and ex-philosophy majors on the scene, and I think a lot of the creators do feel stuck.
I don't know. Over the past few years it's just become so common for creators to put a million disclaimers on any opinion or stance they take because "now I'm not part of this community and you can go here, here, and here if you want to listen to someone who is" or "I don't perfectly understand the thing I'm making a two hour video on but please fact check me in the comments" or "sure this thing i'm talking about is problematic, but let's have some nuance guys" or whatever it is. Or even, "if you're not _____ don't comment on this because it's not about you/us." And I don't know, if you really feel that way, then maybe just don't make the video? Or pony up and deal with the consequences and critics that come for throwing yourself into public discourse.
I know it's not that simple though. I legitimately feel bad every time I hear someone go through the rounds with stuff like that. I can't imagine how terrifying it must be to have any kind of a platform with several thousand people watching whatever you post, if not more for some of these people.
I always think, "I have eyes; I know all this, you don't need to put so many disclaimers on your opinion. Just tell me your opinion." But we aren't living in a world where things are opinions anymore. Kindness really has broken down, and if you have an audiance who demands blood, you're going to have to feed it. We act like it starts with them, but I think really it starts with us.
One wrong move, and your audiance bails on you if you're lucky and attacks you if you're not. And or, someone else's audiance attacks you. Nope. Don't want that job, and I can't blame any of them for falling in with trends at the end of the day.
The Barbie movie times were particularly fun. Little mini-wars between essayists who enjoyed the film for it's female whimsy and commentary on toxic masculinity, and essayists who despised it as capitalist propaganda, all from the general lefttube space. It was _the_ thing to have an opinion on, and why? Why was this the hill everyone needed to be crucified on lol?
i can't even upload a meme or a drawing without a million disclaimers, i can't imagine how video essayists feel
The way some folks twist and turn their words and spread it with the worst interpretations possible. I had a friend like this and I was terrified of having a critical discussion because I constantly had to cover all my bases and make sure nothing I said could be miss interpreted. It’s like walking on egg shells, I can’t imagine writing something for that big an audience knowing that some of them *will* twist your words in any way they can. Once you realize many of these peoples are either; trolling, 14 years old, or terrible at optics themselves- you start to feel a little lighter.
Dude I hate it when people say "fact check me in the comments" or "I don't know much about this" but then go ahead and say what they wanna say anyway. Clearly they're doing this for the capitalist buck, and not to educate. They rely on the mindless droves to get them views who WON'T be fact checking them lol. Maybe fact check yourself before making a video? Maybe do more thorough research so that you know EXACTLY where to point out to your audience where there are holes in your research? There's nothing wrong with not being able to follow every research rabbit trail, but at least do enough research that you know how to say, "This is a rabbit trail you can follow, and this, and this, and this. I briefly looked into the differing views on each of these, here they are. That may affect the truth of my opinion in these ways. Just wanted to be honest." That's how real essays are done.
Amazing video that describes the unsettled feeling I've been having after watching some of these content creators for years. Also, your eyeliner is absolutely perfect
Ironically a person under hegemonic thought is exactly all the criticism this video, or really this channel needs. Z consistently misses the point of the arguments presented to her because she is brainwashed by rightwing thought. For example, the repeated error in this video to accuse someone of being hypocritical in criticizing capitalism and then participating in it. No one has any choice BUT to participate in it, that's part of the criticism! Even Z herself goes on to then complain about having lost monetization. So are we to take from that that she is dishonest too in her videos (though to be clear, she often is either intentionally or unintentionally)? Later on she says that there is a way to live outside of capitalism, but despite all her talk of "humanizing her enemies" doesn't realize that people have lives and families and friends and obligations which you can't just abandon to go live in a commune. She also repeats the lie that everyone who speaks about anticapitalist does no activism. That's just false and with the level of research she's done she MUST know this is a lie. Hasan has raised 100s of thousands of charity, most recently 500k for Palestinian aid. FD himself has also spoken about the charity he gives a lot, linked organizations and even in the VERY FIRST clip she showed of him was plugging a leftwing charity organization (she also wrongly implicated that HE was profiting from this, which was clearly false).
The same with the Tara Mooney clips. Tara and her cohost are consistent in their position throughout: it's not about the money, but they need to get money to survive. Also, Tara saying videos aren't praxis isn't some kind of gotcha moment: she never pretended they were. She just wants to be able to BOTH make content which is politically charged (and perhaps could be praxis) and ALSO videos which aren't. The idea that every leftist must forego everything in life except leftism is a typical right wing bad faith criticism which Z parrots uncritically, not realizing that it is itself dehumanizing. For all her talk of inconsistency in breadtube, just this video along is riddled with them.
Z is also being intentionally dishonest about what is meant by "the parasite class". Even Hasan Piker, perhaps the richest lefty creator, does not qualify. The parasite class is that class of rich people who hoard wealth on the scale of the GDPS of whole cities if not small nations. Multimillionaires and billionaires. The top 0.1%. Hasan isn't even a tenth of the way there, literally. She MUST know this, there is no way she could do all that research and not check the most basic definitions. But she chooses to lie, because it suits her won narrative, ironically.
The truth is FD showed Z how she was wrong about most things about a year ago and she's been doing mental gymnastics trying to evade his criticism ever since. That's why she can't let it go. Z, it's time to grow up.
It's crazy that this woman is taken seriously at all. She needs to read some theory ASAP.
Thanks for pointing this out. No one seems to realize how her video is totally off, even if ther criticism is valid.
I think Mina Le is a bit different. I think Mina truely has interest and passion for fashion and fashion history, but, i think we live in social climate were you are not allowed to just enjoy and indulge in thing without first paying lip services to the 'problematic' aspects. Like think youtubers like Mina le just want to discuss tiktok trends or interesting history but also feel the need to include "capitalism bad" or "too many white people". I like her discussion about fashion history, but I usually tune out when she has to basically stop the flow of the video to assure viewers she has the correct politics with half ass political critiques of whatever she's talking about.
Yeah - I think she is a good example of what happens when you start taking on things that are "above your paygrade" she knows a lot about fashion and fashion history but doesn't really know anything about politics and seems poorly informed about broader historical / artistic topics. Karolina zebrowska does a much better job because she she strikes a good balance of talking about things that she actually knows about while being funny and creative. I think it also helps that Karolina is Polish - there is a certain lack of perspective that comes with being a first worlder.
It is important to acknowledge the eurocentrism and capitalist oppression inherent in the fashion industry. It is important to let people know you have correct ideas by calling these things out.
@@brandonmorel2658 in my opinion callouts are lazy everyone knows that the fashion industry is messed up why not instead draw attention the designers that are ethical and authentic? Why not impart a message about having an personal style so you don't get suckered into trends? Why not lead a "no buy" challenge where you opt out of consumerism for 2 years? Why not teach your audience how to thrift and refashion? Why not uplift/draw attention to diverse fashion creators?
@@redmaple1982 I don't want to sound cynical but, advocating for people to change their consumers habits is performative in nature, as it leads towards no serious evaluation of the actual system of capitalist and racist oppression. Either way we are forced to partake in the system, even if we are toing the line by thrifting or simply not buying stuff at all. Organizing politically and analyzing the system of exploitation we are forced to live in is the most productive way to go about it, calling out brands and stating the fact these utilize slave labour and offshore sweatshops is one way to about it.
@@brandonmorel2658it's been 30 years of people calling out brands and conditions in factories have only gotten worse, as have prices relative to quality. We don't need more analysis at this point because it's been obvious since the 50s that our society has been brainwashed by advertising and status anxiety into a shopping addiction....which everyone is aware of BTW its just that everyone is too much of a conformist to care. Shein hauls are not a basic need, neither is trendiness, nor is doing PR work for a company owned by THE RICHEST MAN alive. Meanwhile if your goal is revolution you need to dispose of consumerism entirely you don't win battles with people who are too self involved to stop handing their money to child slavery - you win battles with people who are willing to do the work (and 8/20 the work is guerrilla warfare)
“Rather than appreciating and building off from similarities in ideology, politics, and policy, which BreadTube share with other content creators and bodies of people, increasingly, minor differences of - realistically - no consequences, are fixated on. They are used time and time again to justify why allyship or compromise or understanding of the other side just won’t work.” 🔥🔥🔥
I don't agree with 100% of your points in this video, but I do really appreciate your perspective here. I think there is a lot to be gained from having conversations and sharing concerns with one another outside of "drama" and "callout" content. We can all do a little better, and this video serves as a good reminder of that! 💜
I agree with you Zoe. The video has its flaws, but it’s a starting point. Idk how I feel about calling “breadtube” stale, but I get the criticism💯
Ironic then that this entire vid is just a callout/drama dump...
Wow! I'm a 16 years old, and I watched (and still sometimes watch) a lot of "breadtube". This video was extremely helpful to me because it got me truly thinking about my views of the world and how I deal with them, and how much privilege I have and my relationship with capitalism, which is more than any of the others ever had. It is truly the first video to inspire me to do something and meditate on things... And you seem to be a reasonable person who truly wants to understand the other side's point instead of violently rejecting it, and you seem to want to improve. Thank you for that, hope you get to grow as a content creator and as a person!
You have no idea how much comfort seeing this coming from a kid like you gives me. I am very scared of what social media and content algorithm recommendations have done to my generation, gen z even worse, and gen alpha even worse than that. Please keep a close eye on your peers. Ask them about the content they consume. If you can challenge them, challenge them. Be the kind of person who can stand up to a friend or a friend group when they're just dead wrong about something.
Dear Kidology,
You exteneded grace to people that gave you none and that alone speaks highly of your character. You eloquently spoke on the current social climate while humanizing all parties. You put into words the hesisitancy I've been feeling about how corn/breadtube presents itself. Thank you for sharing this video. You mentioned your concern about potentially being inundated with negative comments so I hope this brings a positive light to you.
Sincerely,
A
I dont have a hard certainty about whether some of the 'rich behaviours' you listed are contradictory with being anti-capitalistic.
As you said, one has to thrive in capitalism, including the ones that are against it. Well, yes, thrive and not accumulate a capital - although, you can accumulate capital for vanguardship but this is something that I believe its quite naïve to expect from them.
While I agree that socialism should promote collectivisation through mutual aid or, idk, deatomization and socializing with your neighbours, I think it sounded as if you went "you lefties if you hate capitalism so much why won't you go build a commune and live in squats or something"
This all explains why I can’t peacefully watch a Tiffany Ferg video without her doing that dumb “am I right guys face😉” and name dropping “late-stage capitalism” as the root of all evil.
The cognitive dissonance of these channels is so palpable. But they are actively aware the only way they can become “the elite” is by pretending to hate them. It’s like that episode of black mirror.
I love the discussions of the theoretical, rhetorical, and the ideal that happens in these spaces. But there seems to be little to no acknowledgement of the necessary nuance required for ideology to meet practicality halfway so that progress can be made without being an absolute detriment to the people dependent on the current climate. Its just as true at the personal level where people should always be working towards their ideal selves. Thinking that you are already the ideal proves that you don't understand the concept and beating yourself up perpetually for not being the ideal proves the same since is stifles any progress you might make towards that ideal.
My issue with BreadTube is that it's "just content". What I mean is, many creators often have harsh critiques for figures on the Right, but the extent of their activism doesn't go past the videos they publish. As much as many of us young people (think 40 and below) live online, most change happens IRL and no number of video essays will effect change if all we do is flick to the next one in our RUclips queue. More creators need to put their money where their mouth is, and hit the streets with their thousands of followers in tow.
Here's the paradox. As it stands, sponsors and advertisers are willing to fund many of these channels because they get millions of views. Creators are able to live off their video essays and I love that for them. However, would these companies be just as eager to partner with BreadTube creators if those personalities became the face of IRL marches, protests and real activism? I doubt it. As much as I know that we all must eat and we have bills to pay, if you're not willing to make that kinda sacrifice, how much good are you really doing??
Imo, modern day activism has been limited (for the most part) because activists these days aren't partnered with community organizers.
Damn... I have lost a lot of respect for FD after watching this. I have only seen a couple of his videos on the manosphere because I wanted to listen to a male voice commenting on inceldom in a way that wasn't mocking. But now I'm kinda feeling some type of way at his jumping to calling you're a bigot. Which would mean hed think I'm a bigot. Sigh
He is a bully. A straight up bully. Smh
Girl you cooked and left no crumbs. Anytime these people critisize you just asked them to show their bank account
Exactly she clocked that tea with all them khias
Being anti capitalist means being poor and downtrodden I guess? I personally think it's better that people of such influential status advocate for these radical ideas. Because they have the voice that hundreds of thousands of people will listen to. Who cares what they live like on a personal level? As long as they advocate for based leftist ideas, then all power to them!
yass gurl u cant read and cant think yass girlboss w0w what a T boots house
I was hoping for a bit more from this than the tired "you criticize capitalism, yet have an iPhone!", but largely it was that. The decline she quotes is just hand waved at and hasn't even been established as a decline.
It's more like "this anti-capitalist video is brought to you by Conglomocorp Industries". It may be a "tired" criticism, but I notice you didn't say it was false.
Imagine preaching a life of frugality and criticizing conspicuous consumption, while personally living a life of luxury and conspicuously consuming, having your fans and followers rub pennies together while giving their money to support said consumption. Breadtube is televangelism for the Left.
Yeah, idk why Kidology thinks that Breadtube is declining just because it hasn’t ended capitalism. I agree that the profit-driven platform has incentivized lower video essay quality, but that’s exactly what a leftist would expect to happen
It's an oldy but a goldy imo. I haven't heard a great response to such a claim. I'm not satisfied by "well I can't not participate in capitalism, otherwise I'll die" when they actively pursue sponsorship deals with mega-corporations. Okay, you have to trade goods and make money somehow so yes you're technically trapped in "capitalism," but why are you not trying to minimize your participation with capitalism as much as possible? Is it really true that you won't survive unless you sign on with Dior?
@@emmadasilva1794 isn't it totally okay to participate in things you have criticism of? It just means you want things to change for the better, and you voice that in the form of criticism. And you do not have a moral obligation to make your life actively worse by refusing opportunities to improve it cause you have criticisms of the current system. Criticism of the system on its own is not hypocrisy 🤷🏼♀️
What would be hypocrisy is participating in a system and bashing others for participating in the same system, which not many of these creators do.
@@annas6865 It really depends. Are you forced to participate? If so, then yes it's okay to criticize from within! Would it be better for change to criticize from within that system rather than criticize from the outside? If so, then yes it's okay to criticize while participating. But how much are you participating? In the case of taking down capitalism, is it better to participate to the fullest or to try to not participate in any way you can? There are levels to your participation, and thus levels to your hypocrisy. I think its hypocritical to say that a certain level of participation in capitalism is contributing to the problem while also participating at that level.
As a white guy, I am tired of being reduced to my race and sex. That's the power, though, isn't it?
The transformation from annoyance to indifference to contempt for FD Signifier was beautiful to watch.
literally it went in a similar way to yours from indifference (i knew of him but his videos didn’t really do anything for me), to annoyance (his blatant disregard to throwing out words and terms that can ruin someone so easily and his childish mean girl activities) , to straight up dislike after it all set in how much of hypocrite’s he and his friends are
The reason why Breadtube videos are so damn lengthily is because they need 2 hours to explain away all the paradoxes that exists in their own confusing ideology.
this video reminded me how great it was to discover Contra and T1J back in the day. very happy for them and Lindsay Ellis that they moved on from this cesspool of toxicity, in which people like F D Signifier seem to thrive
I agree, found myself frustrated that FD was just about the drama. Listening to his streaming buddies slander anything by lazily slapping labels on it made me click off instantly.
Well Ellis was very flawed and Contra was outright a transmedicalist. So they left because people finally called them out and rightfully. Ellis could learn and grow but Contrapoints lost her damn mind and needs to meet non-binary people and stop being an asshole
It’s also a lot more lucrative doing the right wing grift. Industry occasionally virtue signals but their money is always right wing
No it's not. Marketing uses whatever sells. The reason you think the Internet is crawling with these "rich" "right-wing" "grifters" is because the fake left (radlibs, breadtube, TRAs...) runs a much more efficient marketing campaign.
You seem to keep playing things back to back as if they are obviously self-contradictory, but in each of the cases, the statements seem completely compatible.
To criticize Obama, even harshly, is not to preclude the possibility that you individually might have been materially helped by some of his policies.
To say you hope your videos will inspire people to go out and take action is entirely compatible with the idea that videos, in and of themselves, are not praxis.
This was a really good one, you vocalized something I felt a lot when I watched these RUclipsrs. I didn't even mean to watch the whole thing in one setting, but here I am lol.
I been calling it BegTube for a while now and these MF'S living large out here begging
Left: does something wrong.
Right: makes a videos of it.
Left: makes a video of the right making a video of it.
Right: does something wrong.
Left: makes a videos of it.
Right: makes a videos of the left making a video of it.
both makes money of out you.
This was an amazing, amazing video and so very needed! I have been getting so tired of having the same video essayist always recommended to me, when I know they are all just repeating the same opinions and arguments, which were fresh in 2019/2020 and so very stale now. As someone who worked on a women's organization in Europe on sexual exploitation, something that always irked me is how "sex work" seems also to be gospel to these creators and how you could not say anything against that, lest you be cancelled - this, when "sex work" victimizes mostly immigrant women of color, the poorest of the poor. Yet, BreadTube always focused on the 1% of women in the sex industry who say they have other choices and do it for themselves, ignoring the 99% subjected to exploitation of men and one of the most vicious capitalist industries on this planet. How I needed this video to feel vindicated!!!!
At 38:36 I was shocked how the person on the right could say that. I'm from Turkey. You can find all types of bigotry here. There is racism, religious bigotries, LGBTphobias and many more but none of them are based wholly on white supremacy because no one calls us "white". People still hate black people and other middle eastern refugees with politicals ethics discussions turning into heated fascistic rants in minutes, but it is not WHITE supremacy. In fact, it is hard to tell sometimes, because the description of this country's ethnicity around the world was described more as "caucasian" when I was a kid and completely "middle eastern" now. Here, bigotry is often related to Islam and I've heard our government described as Islamofascist, which is a weird way of wording this in my opinion, but gives off a more accurate vibe to my living experience.
On the other hand, white supremacy probably does influence the whole world nowadays. People can come to even hate their own ethnicity, I see that a lot here and can occasionally slip into it myself.
TL;DR Things are complicated and OBVIOUSLY not all bigotry and prejudice is based on white supremacy. "White" has to do a lot of legwork here to justify that.
I am mixed. One of my parents is white. I do not appreciate people assuming that all white people do not care, or do not have a desire to make the world better for us people of color. That is not kind, that is not loving, and that is not what I had initially thought that the left stood for. We should aim to bring people in, not continuously condemn them for "not having skin in the game".
Kidology, I’m close friends with Second Thought IRL and I do have strong disagreements with his politics. There is plenty of valid stuff there to critique. That said, it always amazes me that people as smart as you continue to bring up his former side channel, Grand Test Auto. This “luxury car review show” has been defunct for 3 years and completely predates his interest in socialist politics. It’s literally so easy to check the video dates on that channel and compare them against his shift to political content on his main channel. I promise, I love a good Second Thought critique video, but the Grand Test Auto talking point is not the “Gotcha” y’all think it is. Repeating that same faulty argument time after time just allows him to dismiss any other valid criticisms out of hand.
Hit the nail on the head. I dipped out a long time ago but I saw a lot of what you are speaking of and you introduced me to some ideas I hadn’t thought about. Well done
In the academics of it all, we typically refer to the kind of content @kidology is referring to here as 'mental masturbation'. Its intellectual sounding, it make even contain quality content, but it is pretty much just a cathartic experience for the ones making it and those consuming it. It feels good to them to do it and to consume it.
Hence the masturbatory moniker it is given.
Something that occurred to me while watching this video is how breadtube either is or always was but a lifestyles section in the newspaper. Petty criticisms predicated upon little more than a person's personal preferences regarding, oh, something petty like skin tone, how much makeup they have on, who they hanging with and who they ain't, style of dress, or how they livin'.
Important for folks to learn to recognize those kinds of comparisons to 'legacy media'. Rare are the videos in breadtube that I have seen that are not just the lifestyles section of a newspaper.
The truly sad thing is, it's not j just bread tube. I've been a part of the left since at least 2017. I've been part of many meetings, conferences, protests, getting arrested at the Capitol, fighting the police in 2020 .... And the VAST majority of the organized left is consumed by this mental masturbation you speak of. It's infuriating how many times I've seen passionate, radical movements fizzle away because of this kind of academic radicalism
As a very far left leaner I do not consider a lot of these people leftists. You can’t be a leftist and be casually racist or misogynistic.
Here's the thing: Their conception of racism and misogyny precludes their actions. Only non-leftists can be those things.
You can. That's kind of the point of the video
You're "far-left" so what makes you think you don't espouse those beliefs?
Or might be just left leaning instead of the far end of the spectrum
Lemme just reduce myself, my beliefs & everyone else’s to one virtually meaningless dimension
Thats a logical falacy. "no true scotsman"
hope this video goes viral and ends this era of video essayism that is lazy and blames everything on capitalism, takes unoriginal ideas and pretentiously analyzes culture while fostering an audience that genuinely believes communism is good because capitalism is "problematic". my god i'm tired of stupid pretentious takes on how some tv series on hello kitty is related to our fear of the poor or whatever. most of the time it's summaries that take up 70% of the video as well. even the good ones like contrapoints have extremely stupid takes (like in her latest video on twilight she keeps saying "i just wish people thought psychologically about this" that's not an argument not does it make sense) all while being hailed by stupid people as "intelligent and perceptive!" sorry if this is super aggressive lmao i've just been fostering this irritation for a while
Thank you for this video!!! That feeling of my homepage being boring and stale wasn't only me! Still, you challenged some of my political views. To be really honest, I feel tricked by breadtube. I want the world around us to be a better, fair place. People, or rather, personas, who promised me this, turned out to frankly, not care. It's not even that they are doing the things that they do, its that dissonance between their online personas and real choices, which you pointed out so wonderfully. Once again, excellent video, which is nuanced - a value so lacking today in online spaces. This all is still through an english-speaking lense. I think we need to realize that the world exists outside the english/american internet and talk with real people. I am trurly saddened by the state of online world rn, as an era is coming to an end. But guess what that leaves me to do. To go into the real life, talk with real people, even those I may not agree with, and they change me as much as I change them. This video crystallized the thoughts long brewing in my head, and now I lost my clear road ahead, bushes and greenery left, for me to figure out which way do I even want to go. Nevertheless, breadtube changed me during my adolescence, formed me in some way. Maybe burning the bridge between current me and breadtube will allow me to focus more on the real problems around me - many questions for myself to figure out, as my polish reality differs greatly (and always has) from that of english-speaking communities. I hope this comment doesn't come off as a tangent and I apologize for any grammar mistakes -_-. Thank you for the time you put into making this!!
Is this the official "Kidology levels up" video? Fantastic.
Thoroughly enjoyed watching it, and then enjoyed watching it a second time on LonerBox's stream.
Hit the nail on the head about real life people belonging to "marginalized" groups not being at all like the online caricature of them. I tried to get on board with this term, but honestly I can't help cringing when these youtubers say "Indigenous." Like FR. Nobody says that IRL. We have always called ourselves NATIVE, INDIAN, or NATIVE AMERICAN. Most of us absolutely cannot speak our native language at any level (they are considered to be dying or dead languages, our ancestors were prohibited from speaking them) yet every "Indigenous" internet persona has a phrase in their bio that was so obviously just copy pasted off Google. They ramble on about "brown pride" when ! MANY of us are white or black! If they knew anything about native american history and assimilation, they would understand that we are a people of many different colors. And lastly, of all the issues I have seen brought up supposedly afflicting us as a people, THEY NEVER TALK ABOUT BLOOD QUANTUM. BIG TIME 🤔 Its almost like these people don't fkn represent us!!
I had a sociology teacher who was big time against blood quantum, but the teacher lyingly told us that it was the federal government enforcing the quantums. it's like, no, all those requirements are made by tribal governments. and now some tribes are working overtime to divest other tribes so that they get more money.
Confronting blood quantum would mean having to confront racialization and that would unpack the "brownness" thing and then, well, if it's not about *race* how do we American politics?
I'm not native but I am Jewish and they like to racialize us too. We're "white people" now apparently. All of us. Somehow...
Fantastic video. One of the best I've seen in a while. I appreciate your take on this and you having the courage to verbalize these viewpoints because as you've said many people have taken note of these exact things.