Lets Play Deltarune: Snowgrave Route - FINALE - Noelle's Watch
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- And thus concludes Deltarune Chapter 2 for us. If you'd like to see us play through Chapter 1 as a Lets Play, please let us know! We'll only do it if it's something you all want to see.
Thank you for watching. I hope we were able to play this route, so you don't have to.
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![Gamers React to : Spamton [Deltarune Chapter 2]](/img/1.gif)
The detail of switching "Kris called out for help" to "YOU whispered her name" is terrifying.
you
@@user-uq6uj7fn3h AAAAAAAHdhhxheisjfhd
U
Tu
Bonjour
Spamton gave you the ring because he hoped your rampage would distract the guards so he could take over the mansion and get into the basement. I don't think he specifically wanted you to *kill* everyone but hey, that's business for ya, kid
(I realized the [4 LEFT] could be interpreted as implying he wants you to hunt down the remaining enemies and kill them, but idk, maybe he just wants you to gain more EXP. Either way, he's definitely a villain in this route especially--but since he shows no interest in killing anyone but Kris in the regular route, I feel like his motives are more opportunistic and desperate than murderous. He's a fascinating character, that's for sure.)
@@CaitlinMagness Spamton was desperate to regain the power and prestige he once had. He simply found two different ways of using Kris to get that power depending on the route, is what I get from him.
@@umyum3858 Me too, in the sense that he’s taking advantage of Kris’s actions in both routes for his own purposes and is desperate enough not to care about the consequences, whether it’s “murdering a teenager” or “helping teenagers murder people.” In the regular route, though, there’s a sense of actual connection between him and Kris. It’s not just power and prestige he wants, but freedom, and his old friends back, and for his choices to matter. However predatory he is, he genuinely thinks the thing that will set him free will set Kris free as well (“Do you want to be a heart on a chain your whole life?”) I think it’s this connection that leads him to see Kris as a friend after his defeat and become their ally.
In the weird route, we get none of that. He still projects onto Kris like crazy, maybe even more, but it’s all self-loathing and resentment for us not needing him. Because he’s just a corrupted program.
But after downloading himself into the disk he needs to actually be put back into the body, which he can't do by himself, so SOMEONE had to help him.
@@colt1903 That's an interesting point. The challenge was that he couldn't get into the basement to get the disk, though. With the guards safely out of the way, I imagine he could just go to the basement and transfer himself to the disk while it was still in the machine.
Fun fact: you can move towards Noelle in the hospital during her dialogue outside her fathers room
and you'll be staring at the wall where you would be cornering Noelle
This fact isn't fun
Fun fact:This isn’t a fun fact
“A voice unlike Kris’s…”
This was said to reinforce that the Snowgrave route only happened because the player forced Kris (and by extension Noelle) to do it.
and probably specifically because everyone thought Chara was evil all along back in Undertale
@@NiennaFan1 Always hated it when people said that and then used Asriel saying Chara wasn't a good person as "evidence" as if someone can't be a bad person without wanting to commit mass genocide
@@kurocomics I am convinced by the theory that Chara was abusive to Asriel. I doubt they fully understood that how they manipulated him qualified as abuse, and even if they did I don't blame them because when a child does something really horrible the proper response is what happened to this child and they need help, not getting angry with them like you would an adult. I feel so bad for Chara that they have been through so much pain to hate humanity and want to kill themselves and six random people and I don't blame them for anything. I think it's clear as day that Chara, who came into Frisk's body at their lowest point when they and their best friend had been brutally killed and it seemed like their one attempt to be a good person by sacrificing themself (not a good way to look at it but they don't know that) had failed, was not a crazy mass murderer in life. We either brought them back wrong with EXP or accidentally radicalized them by showing them that killing everyone is the meaning of life and can protect you better than having friends did for Chara or both, and I think that a principal reason we see Noelle's thoughts on the Snowgrave Route is to make it clear that Noelle's gradual acceptance of killing everyone is similar to Chara's thought process in the Ruins, before they accepted it and started pushing us on with kill counts, and that Chara slowly became an stat-addicted murder zombie thanks to us; they did not start out that way.
@@NiennaFan1 I may be skeptical of the theory myself but I do feel pretty much everything you said is correct
@@kurocomics ok! you mean the theory that Toby made us see Noelle's thoughts so he could hammer home that Chara wasn't always evil, or?
There’s an additional line of dialogue where Noelle says, “S-stay away from me!”
It triggers if you attempt to walk in any direction during the blacked out cutscene
All I can think of in that moment is how much that statement probably REALLY hurts Kris. Obviously it's not their fault but Noelle's saying that to us and we're controlling Kris. Kris has to live with seeing Noelle genuinely terrified of them. Ugh. Both of them are victims in this route.
For Ralsei, * Kris called for help... but nobody came.
For Susie, * Kris called for help... but nobody came.
For Noelle, * *You* whispered Noelle's name...
Yeah... Toby really traumatized me with this route.
It said you whispered, not muttered. Spamton is the one who says you muttered it.
@@jakalder Oh, you're right. Sorry.
That was epic ngl
Hey at least WE "saved" Kris so he wouldn't be stuck forever there lol
I love it though
I always thought Toriel invited Susie to stay over just in case whoever slashed her tires was still out there. That way Susie wouldn´t have a chance to get attacked by whoever had slashed the tires. Toriel cares for children a lot, and she wouldn´t want Susie to be in danger or to make them worry about the whole situation..
yeah, some of their speculating like with "there are 2 krises and also us in this body" and "toriel knows bc she called the cops about slashed tires" seemed a bit far fetched.
17:45 - I have a....sneaking suspicion that Ralsei was trying to literally make the PLAYER view Susie's POV like how it's suppose to be in the regular route. That's why we didn't get the scene of Susie with Noelle and THAT'S why he goes "Wait, we were suppose to--"
Bruh, I think Ralsei is actively hiding stuff from US.....the player. We did derail the entire story with this Snowgrave Route!
He does the same thing in chapter 1, so he definitely knows what’s up
Holly Sh*it, You r right wtffff
This thing is crazy af, good job Toby
Interestingly, in the regular route you can refuse to switch POVs and Ralsei isn't nearly as panicked as he is there. Since he seems to be using those moments to talk to Kris in private, it could be that in this route he's aware that things are not as they should and wants to know what happened with Kris
Another interesting thing is how he immediately tells Queen about the Roaring. It’s like he’s trying to go by a set path and knows that there’s nobody to help the Fun Gang in this route, so he has to get it over with quickly.
That’s why I don’t like the whole “Ralsei’s evil theory,” because really, he stopped Berdly from causing the end of the world, and he keeps taking the player away from Kris, however briefly. I think he’s only fighting against one person here.
Important to note: Noelle will not recognize Berdly and will ask if she should freeze him regardless of whether or not she has the Thorn Ring equipped (Although you can't use snowgrave during the battle, as it costs 200% TP and the Thorn Ring is needed to cut that value in half)
The Thorn Ring didn't cause her to do that, that was just her.
She was starting to like the power...
to be fair, your childhood friend telling you to murder all of wonderland while you slowly stop being able to recall what you've done tends to mess with you.
and like, she DOES snap out of it so she clearly didn't say that line while knowing it was berdly.
@@jamesverner9132 "the more you kill, the less you will hurt, the more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others"
@@gristen sans was right if only he was aware what was going on down here
So, the ring makes everything... half off... like a sale? Toby! >:(
Fun fact: if Kris is knocked out during the final Berdly fight in this route, Noelle will comment that even though Kris is unconscious she can still hear "their" voice. Further proof that it's YOU, the player, doing all the bad stuff. Also notice how, when Susie and Ralsei see Kris after everything that happened, they immediately comment on how hurt/in pain they look? So much so that they think Kris needs healing? Yeah, I'm pretty sure the real Kris does NOT like what you do to Noelle in this route...
41:00 interesting that for the first two. It’s Kris that’s calling for help. Several times. But when it comes to noelle it’s YOU that whispers her name. It’s almost like kris was deliberately calling for help from the others repeatedly to for as long as possible keep you from having the option of continuing to exploit noelle even further
@@ItsB1998 them*
@@ItsB1998 Okay I guess your thing is going into other people's comments and spreading incorrect lore interpretations for some reason. Don't know why you have to insist that Kris and the Soul are one and the same even though the game is telling you that they are two separate entities.
@@nesso.9944 They’re a UT/DR fan. They’ll do anything to avoid responsibility.
I'm not sure if they were trying to stall us, but yeah
1:07:39 Your ideas on what Toriel is thinking are very spot on. For me, I think it’s along the lines of:
“Oh I’ll drive Susie home.”
*Sees slashed tires*
“I no longer can take Susie home, and even if I could, there’s a fucking demon out there and I will not put this child in jeopardy.”
in this case, possibly a literal demon
It is incredible just how much the Noelle manipulation and stalker-ish dialogue options gets under my skin more than all the murder stuff. Honestly frightening.
Because murder has been normalized in video games, but manipulation, stalkers and stuff like that is not. That's why it gets under your skin. Both murder and manipulation is wrong the difference is how much you see it and how you get used to it.
@@ItsB1998
Oh no, “we” got issues. Kris and the player are explicitly confirmed to be different beings with different thoughts, intentions, and feelings.
@@ItsB1998 It genuinely has though?? Kris on multiple occasions has been shown to make sad, disgusted, devastated or angry, facial expression after certain parts of the game (After Killing Berdly, After beating Spamton Neo in Normal Route, or after Monster Kid insults Susie in Chapter1.), and Kris has even asked Susie for a hug outside of the players control.
Many people inside the town have noticed Kris’ “strange behavior lately”, or sounds a bit off, because Kris has been possessed by the Player.
If you go into the hospital and check the piano, the Mouth person comments on how lovely *Kris* played the piano when he played for the patients, and if you (the Player) attempt at playing, you just smash keys.
This all clearly shows that Kris and the Player are different people, with different thoughts and skills. This isn’t a “headcanon” and refusing to face the facts is kinda just ignorant.
@@ItsB1998 you do realize that Toby's entire thing is playing with ideas and mechanics only in video games as a medium right? You as an entity in every video game you've ever played is a character. You ever play fallout? How is it that a mailman can annihilate factions and armies by himself and never die? It's because he's you. Games ignore this and just say you're some action hero or your skilled or whatever but Toby's whole thing is playing with those ideas. That's literally the entire point of undertale like the saving mechanic and such.
@@ItsB1998 I mean hell at the beginning of chapter 1 people are literally talking to you the player and telling you that you will possess a body. It doesn't get any more blatant than that.
About Berdly: In Undertale, Monsters are said to sometimes "fall down" before dusting (If they die of natural causes, which isnt the case for Berdly, except maybe getting killed in the darkworld translates to a natural death in the light world?). Monsters that have fallen down are basically in a coma, and they will inevitably die sooner or later (except if they are injected with massive amounts of DT, "the will to keep living", which is what happened to the Amalgamates). That beeing said, Monsters dont have to stay dead in UT. Alphys managed to accidentally save the amalgamates after they fell down, and Asriel literally died and turned to dust but was revived as a flower (On which his dust had been spread upon death, and that was later injected with DT).
Toby could also revive Berdly in a different way: Dark fountains can turn mundane objects into people. What would happen if this "mundane object" had monster dust on it? Would the Monster be revived as a Darkner?
Some people have speculated that Alvin is trying to do exactly that with Gerson (Alvin mumbling to himself "is it alright for this hammer too... ", this hammer beeing the one that lies in Gersons grave, likely covered in his dust)
Anyway, I could imagine Toby actually reviving Berdly post-Snowgrave, simply because that would give Berdly the chance to say "Gamers dont die, we respawn", and for no other reason.
That’s valid.
I think it could also be that he is brain dead in the Light World, like they killedhis soul
no part of Kris wants this to happen, WE are the Soul, *we* are making everything happen and taking Kris' autonomy even more. That's why Kris doesn't even seem enthusiastic about Noelle knowing it wasn't a dream, they don't want her to know about the horrible things.
@@ItsB1998 Kris rarely can talk on their own, and in this route more than ever before we really really take control of Kris, to the point of Noelle saying Kris's voice didn't even sound like them.
@@Liltama another fact about this is how when you reunite with Ralsei and Susie, they focus on that Kris looks pretty sick, implying he is super against this, but he cant do anything, as its soul, them are robbed of its freedom
@@ItsB1998
Maybe Kris doesn’t care about darkners in general, and only cares about lightners.
About berdly im pretty sure monsters dont turn to dust in delta bc when susie is down she doesnt turn to dus, and in the light word, no monster knows about souls or knows about magic, It's like a normal world where everyone can bleed or die normally like humans it seems
@@-ZH
Then why is Kris sparing them?
OMG I’m SO glad you noticed the detail of the closet being big enough to fit a *large* person. Not many people take that into account
Surprised to find you here, the world is truly small huh?
I'd never considered their books being open. They very clearly got at least a little studying done before the fountain was made- they recall it happening, at least.
I think most people assume thats where we put Berdly. Not that someone else was in there and they made the fountain.
Asgore = Knight????
NYEH HEH HEH!
i feel like the dialogue if you don't wear the watch is a bit cooler, noelle thinks to herself "why did their voice just now sound so terrifying" and you just tell noelle :
"because it wasn't a dream"
I feel like I almost never see it now because someone tells them to take the watch...
There's a much freakier event that happens if Kris is downed VS Berdly, Berdly yells at Noelle to run away once he's downed, but she's freaking out because she claims she can still hear "their" voice. Implied to not be Kris's voice, but OUR voice(because the player is still commanding her).
@@Whazzupie yeah, i really like how no matter which route you do, the scariest thing in this game is the player.
that and noelle's stupidly strong magic, like, even before you start making her stronger she already did stupid damage.
@@Whazzupie This route is a trip in itself.
I thought nothing of most of this at first, honestly. Though... while I didn't feel the disgust at myself I did during the genocide route, I still felt...weird...doing this one. Weird and uncomfortable...I couldn't understand _why_ though...at least not at first...
And then you can walk towards her. I discovered that one on accident
The "broken home" line is clearly referring to Kris, not Noelle- their parents are divorced. Spamton is addressing Kris with those statements, implying that he thinks Kris did the Snowgrave route to break free of their strings
So odd how he says that the Snowgrave route can free Kris despite it not being them doing it. I'm worried that the only way to get a good ending for Kris (i.e. free them from being dependent on the soul) is by doing Snowgrave
Im thinking its against both, because noel is stuck in a home with a dead sister and a disappointed mom who expects perfect from her and a sick ill dad
Not exactly broken home but it's still talking about both
@@Kromer__ missing, not dead
@@gaminganimators7000 well it's been so long everyone just assumes shes dead (but then again I'm sure we will find her in a dark world in one of the chapters)
No one ever seems to notice that Kris passively generates TP during the Spamton fight. Because they're constantly tense.
Toby said in an interview that the plan now is to release chapters 3, 4 and 5 together, and after that chapter 6 and 7, also together. So even if it's true that chapter 3 is done, it's still going to take a while
Well, I think he just said that on his website actually. But maybe other places too. I also think it's important to note that the last few years Toby has had a wrist injury preventing him from working and playing piano as much as usual. Not to mention his team of developers has expanded since CH1. So I wouldn't be surprised if development speeds up quite a bit and we'll get those chapters within a couple years.
@@Cinder36 Also, he said that a big part of the time developing CH2 was deciding whether to use the same game engine as CH1 along with writing the script for all future chapters, as well as what you said.
@@swift0sword679 Yeah true, that too. It took him 6 months to decide which engine he wanted to use.
Still waiting for next chapter... I just don't have the heart to just leave the game with Berdly not being actually dead; but rather brain dead. Oh and How chapter 3 is going to be like if we do snowgrave since Noelle didn't go to the new dark fountain Kris had created, making the next genocide route hard, well Noelle for sure wouldn't wanna go in suspicious dark rooms now for sure.
42:08 "dont monsters turn into dust when they die?" they do, but they only turn to dust immediately if they are struck down (Berdly was frozen in this case), Monsters enter a state called "Falling Down" when they are dying through natural means, putting them into a coma they likely wont recover from, since Noelle froze Berdly with the Lethal Snowgrave spell, it froze his body, this caused him to enter the "Fallen Down" state...its somewhat explained when you interact with one of the book shelves in the "Librarby" in Undertale
Im glad they noticed the very eerie “there is no audience” now
a small little bit of dialogue in the hospital that almost everyone misses is, if you check the beads at the entrance this dialogue will come up instead of the usual depressing one.
* (It's a toy with beads on a track.)
* (One of the blue beads is broken and torn off.)
and the depressing metaphor continues.
pipis
BTW if you check on the Sliding beads in the hospital it says that the blue bead has been torn off the tracks.
It’s safe to assume that’s the games meta way of showing the progress of the characters.
Whoa
Yep, before that the colored beads are said to grimly march along their set path
Berdly fucking dies
Holy crap that's dark.... Wonder what other ones we can "tear off the tracks"
I honestly think it's just Kris and the player, because the soul is the player, so Kris with the soul would just be the player controlling Kris and Kris without a soul is just Kris.
@@ItsB1998 idk, is the SOUL confirmed to be one's consciousness? Flowey kept his consciousness without a soul. Granted, he was a monster, so maybe it's different for humans. Or maybe Kris has their own soul that we haven't seen. Or they're some sort of empty vessel (like the one we created at the beginning of the game) that's different from other Lightners. I think almost anything is possible at this point, so I won't discount the possibility of the soul being a separate entity from the player, either.
@@ItsB1998 I do agree that we should interpret Deltarune on its own terms. The connections to Undertale are there, so I admit it's tempting to draw from Undertale in order to theorize, but you're right, the rules could be entirely different. I still think the implications identifying the player/the player's will with the soul are awfully strong, though. Kris's will could come from somewhere else.
Wasn't that explanation regarding Kris's soul in the dark world given by Ralsei? Whatever assumptions we make about Ralsei, it's probable that he wouldn't call us players out. If he doesn't know about us, then there would be no reason for him to think Kris had been highjacked when he seems to be normal. If he does know about the player and we going with the interpretation that he's tried to have conversations out of our view, then I doubt he'd go "This is your soul, player, that appeared when a random voice told you that you were connected, then messed with you before sticking you in Kris". He's act like everything is normal, I'd assume. That sounds dangerous. Even if he's simply having fun with us, I think that he'd still not state that the player is robbing Kris of their agency if that was the case, because then that would something to ruin the fun time.
@@ItsB1998 nothing says that Kris can hear the Narrator. The Narrator is for us to understand what’s going on better. Also, it’s entirely possible that Kris has two SOULs and their SOUL is damaged. Explains how Kris can remove the SOUL and still have control over their body and why they need our SOUL to live.
@@ItsB1998 Yeah the Narrator tells us what Kris is thinking and feeling, but they don’t tell Kris that. The narrator doesn’t tell Kris that they feel something strange. Kris knows that, they don’t need someone else telling them that. Why would the narrator say “you” to someone that can’t hear them? The only person that can hear the narrator is the player, therefore it makes complete sense that those thoughts are what the player in-universe is supposed to feel (remember, you are possessing Kris, so Toriel is technically your mother).
I also find it strange how you insist that Kris is evil, yet also say that their will is in the SOUL. Who’s the person who removes the SOUL then? Are they evil or not? Why would they do actions that would benefit Kris if they just removed them? And as for my multiple SOULs idea, it’s just that: an idea. An idea that has some merit given what little we know.
I wonder how many chapters it'll take until people stop denying that the player is the "evil" one and Kris is just some poor bastard who's constantly getting possessed. You'd think the Genocide route of Undertale would have made this clear, or that the Snowgrave route would have made this clear, but there are still people who won't admit fault for causing bad things to happen in the game and pushing blame onto Kris. It's kind of fascinating, psychologically.
It is interesting. I do think some of it is just different interpretations, or resistance to subtext and meta elements in stories in favor of strictly literal interpretations. Because at the end of the day, it’s still just a game and the “player” is a character in the story being played by the actual player. But then there were people who acted like doing a genocide run in Undertale meant you were literally a bad person, so there are people who just take the whole thing too seriously.
@@CaitlinMagness yeah there are definitely people who take it too far. But it's always interesting when people act like a spectator to something they actively choose in real life, and Toby fox's games seem to bring out that mechanism in some people.
@@nesso.9944 I think that’s just how we’re conditioned to approach video games. Toby’s games challenge that though, which is part of what makes them so great
I wholeheartedly admit that I am completely corrupt and at fault for everything that happened in Undertale and Deltarune. I just think it's more fun to be totally evil than good. Sure, if you're good you can have friends and stuff, but if you're evil you get all of the creepy text that makes you seem like this unstoppable, unknowable force, and that just makes me giddy.
@@YodaMorpheus7 this guy gets it
In the game, there are several signs that lead to "Hyperlink Blocked" being choices or decisions, however, this is not yet fully confirmed.
it could also be "LOVE", or "freedom"
@@TempestKrimps you've been making [LOVE], haven't you?!
@@caseyv8322 lol that's one of the reasons it could be LOVE, it's very in character for spamton to say something like that
i think it means voice
and/or choice or decisions
there is a pretty interesting theory that the [hyperlink blocked] spamton talks about is choice
I feel like it's either [CHOICES] or [LOVE]. Choice fits the theme of his character, though.
What about Freedom?
@@The_Rising_Dragon basically the same thing as choice in the context of this game
@@heartbae87 But Choices are the availibility of alternatives, while Freedom is the ability to pick among those alternatives, no?
The theory of The Knight hiding in the computer lab is one I haven’t heard before but I like it. I assumed that the “a large person could easily fit inside” text was alluding to the thought that Kris may have stuffed Berdly’s body in the closet since he’s technically now in a coma (probably?). Whatever the case, I just hope chapter 3 clears up some stuff.
I think the fact it says *large* person and appears in all the routes probably means it was for the Knight. I’ve heard theories that the Knight might be Gerson’s son Alvin, which would kinda make sense since Gerson was the one who told Frisk about the significance of the Delta Rune in Undertale.
The large person text isn't snowgrave exclusive
I always thought "a large person could easily fit inside" was to show there's enough space to uh.... stuff Berdly in there after this route, but the "large" bit always threw me off because it didn't really describe Berdly. Never thought that it could be a hint about who created that dark world in the first place and that they hid in there afterwards. interestingggg
Nah, the Knight couldn't have hid in the closet. They would have to leave the room before it's completely engulfed in smoke, otherwise they would be stuck in the dark world, and they'd appear at the end when the fountain is closed, and then we'd see them.
@@bro748 or they left before everyone woke up maybe since they're always a bit groggy and like "whuh...what happened ?"
@@bro748 We can leave the Fountain of apparently pure darkness just fine, at least once we reach chapter 2, anyway. So, if the Dark Fountain created by the Knight is made under its will, couldn't it be that they, out of anyone, would be able to leave purely through wanting it? Us just leaving the closet Dark World is pretty weird as is, though... Is it 'cause it's made of pure darkness, or what? Is it because Ralsei allows it, and he's apparently the prince?
Ralsei has been able to create an exit out of his fountain that didn't require sealing it, so i presume a fountain creator would be able to leave it without sealing it too. Otherwise you'd run into the same problem with the chapter 1 fountain
Super late to this but,the"large person" deal with the closet is always there regardless if you're doing snowgrave or not so this shifts towards someone actually hidind there more
i think torial doesnt want susie to leave because someone is outside... i dont think she knows it kris
I love how in This route Spamton is angry at you for having him as the secret boss. He’s annoyed that you Decided to make your own choices/ [Hyperlink blocked] with Noelle knowing full well your doing it as a DLC/expansion for your own enjoyment. Your taunting spamton by both doing the freedom he wants in game and by treating him as a Boss you find and beat (Like Jevil and most video game bosses) instead of getting the connection you have with him in the main game
yeah . . . oof. I get the sense that he genuinely wants Kris as a friend in the regular route, which makes the whole thing that much more bitter and ironic.
@@CaitlinMagness he can relate to Kris
But he can't relate to *you*
The best part is how he refuses to call you “Kris” in this route, unlike the normal route where he’s addicted to saying their name (despite never actually learning it). He knows that Kris isn’t that evil. I feel like Spamton is supposed to be the Queen to Kris’ Noelle, and by asserting yourself over Kris you’re breaking that connection.
@@ghengiroo4143 not me JUST making the connection of him losing his [KRIS KRIS KRIS] tic in the weird route. Holy crap that’s amazing and everything hurts
"IT'S NOT MY JOB TO BE SOME KIDS' [EXTRA BOSS]."
At 41:03 rather than saying kris called for help it says YOU called for noelle.
Also if you inspect the bead toy twice at 46:14 there is snowgrave exclusive dialogue. It says something along the lines of the blue bead seems to have fallen off the track
@@ItsB1998 The first two times it said kris calledo out but the 3rd it was you. Spamton also says "yell into the reciever, your voice, their voice, it runs out eventually" your voice being kris's voice and their voice being ours
@@ItsB1998 Its obvious that spamton knows kris is someone else's control during the normal spamton neo fight he said "do you want to be a heart on a chain your whole life" hes talking to kris and implying he can escape our control
@@ItsB1998 ratio
It's worth noting that Snowgrave Spamton assumes that the murderous rampage was Kris acting on their own in an attempt to break free of the soul's control
a monster can be labeled fallen down before the to turn to dust, its basicly like dying from old age but for monsters, i wonder if its happening to berdly.
Described as being comatose; unresponsive prior to death and/or the state of being before you go into a coma.
Odd thought I had: Many birds go into a state of frozen-like resting period called 'torpidity' when they're dying or lack energy to search for food. For hummingbirds, as an example, this is particularly fatal. They're conscious, but won't react to outside stimuli until revived by a suddenly influx of energy or something snaps them out of their semi-aware sleep.
Deltarune is a different universe from Undertale, don't take rules from that world for granted here,
Especially that as we learn in Undertale, the funerals there are just spreading the dust on a favorite object of that person so Thier essence can live inside it, while there are clearly graves in this universe.
@@Zephyr_Chmura I always took it for granted, instead, that monsters were buried in Undertale, well, their dust in their objects, I mean. Surely they don't like, just leave the objects hanging around, at the very least. They definitely wouldn't even be containers most of the time, so that could end up troublesome. Maybe it's not exactly graves, though.
It’s not that Toriel doesn’t want Susie to see that the are tires were slashed, but worry that the person who slashed the tires is still out there and could hurt Susie
I think the interpretation that Kris with / with their soul are two different character is wrong :o The game tends to show that we as the players are not Kris, we are playing the soul. As long as we're inside of Kris, we can make them act and say things, we control them ! That's why Spamton calls Kris a Puppet when you bit him in the normal route :o However they still have some kind of control : they can look shaken by what they're forced to do, they can even scream when they're faced with the fact that they're just a puppet for us now ;-; ! But yeah this is seconded by the fact that when we make dialogue choices, characters hear a weird voice unlike kris's !
Also, Tobby said that it was not Undertale but it's own universe so ... we don't know if monsters turn to dust
@@ItsB1998 I mean, the player controls the soul, so it's unclear if the player and the soul are two different entities or if they are the same. In the case they are the same then the player is a key part of the story in-world, and not just an external force.
@@ItsB1998 Susie mentions Kris looks shaken after the Berdly Incident
@@ItsB1998 I think there's a third party involved and he was the one mainly in control of Kris during the weird route (at least facial expression wise and stuff said). 49:21 Noelle mentions a voice that wasn't Kris's. But it's not just any voice, it's a terrifying voice. There are other mentions of this weird voice elsewhere, off the top of my head when Kris goes down when fighting Berdley in Weird Route is one example.
However, I really doubt the character has been introduced in the game yet as there's only little hints of them being referred to as "YOU", though after looking more closely at some cases, it's not always talking about the player. So it gets into fan theory really fast. For all we know it could be another Chara situation where you only see that there was someone else with the body only when the game is about to end when you've done the weird route through all the chapters.
I think that Catti and Kris may have accidentally summoned this being since they studied the occult together. I assume they summoned this being first, failed in some way, then summoned us on the next try. As for the reason why is pure speculation at this point. Maybe the being was being manipulative and was pretending to not have been summoned so it could easily control Kris when he is alone and will only control Kris when Kris is alone so it stays hidden. Maybe Kris tried to get another soul to drive out the evil one. Just don't have enough details at this point. Just gotta wait for later chapters to know more about them.
Whatever the case is, Kris maybe a weirdo and a prankster, but I really don't think he wants to manipulate a childhood friend into murdering people.
@@ItsB1998 Just some -very small- stuff I felt like sayin'; the people Flowey and Chara speak to is seemingly Chara and Frisk respectively, but they're talking to the same person, so it doesn't really add up. Flowey can't be speaking to Frisk, and Chara can't be speaking to themself, so who are they talking to? In Deltarune, we know Kris eats the pie, and apparently with a separate knife to the one they usually carry around, despite Toriel implying it's Kris's knife. Anyway, point is that a malicious entity taking the soul out, then interrupting whatever agenda they have just to eat pie, is pretty weird, and without the player's presence, it can't possibly be as a cover story, if we're not a factor, then we can at least be sure that the desire to eat pie was genuine, regardless of why exactly.
In Undertale, Chara is presumably brought to life (sorta) because Frisk falls right where Chara was buried, through our determination, the same power that animated the flower with Asriel's essence. Similarly to Flowey, Chara continues being Chara despite their soul not being present, though that was in Undertale's world, and given they can control Frisk's body, they still have a connection to the red soul, even if they don't own it, as opposed to taking it out. It's pretty much the _only_ thing really pointing to it, but, Susie's dialogue at the beginning of chapter 2, when she calls Kris the school zombie and said they slept like a corpse, it feels just like the sort of thing to be foreshadowing, so maybe Kris kind of is dead? It's pretty out there, but sure looks like it'd be important. Perhaps, no matter where the soul is from, it could be that they're kept alive through DT alone, and similarly to Chara remaining a conscious person shortly after Undertale begins (though Flowey points out they're soulless), Kris is temporarily able to hang on like Flowey was given life.
Naturally, there's a lot of other stuff, but as you've said, at least a good portion of them can be explained in other ways, though I should point out that the unnatural knowledge of the characters that assumes you've played Undertale, doesn't really work... Unless there's some time travel going on again. I wonder why can't save in the Light World though? In Undertale we can't do it either when it comes to the surface, it only goes for the Underground, and whoever gets to save and reset is only dependent on who's most determined in the said location, to the point that the other fallen children were able to do it as well. I imagine it's because the surface is so absurdly full of humans, so no one can really be considered the most determined? Well, whatever it is, we can't seem to do it in the Light World whenever we play Deltarune, but we do have the save files that are provided to us... somehow. Speaking of which, here comes the tweets.
There's the usual stuff people bring up, but also this one that's often forgotten, as it comes from Toby Fox's twitter, not the Undertale/Deltarune one, and it's immediately before the Gaster lookin' talk.
"It's cold.
It's as if everything had been enveloped in a black wind...
You didn't realize it yet, but... it seems that there's someone who wants to talk to you."
So that's definitely something worth noting. But indeed, there's the whole other stuff with the vessel creation, the mysterious Chara sounding voice that interrupts it (perhaps it's Kris even... How easy is it to uh, tap into the mysterious void again...?), the fact that the red soul called by the mysterious person that totally definitely isn't a certain mystery man (or... tall white blob, perhaps. Or something.) was going to give us a vessel body to begin with... The person they're speaking to though, do have a little bit of characterization from the tweets, though it's all things that would be _expected_ for the people reading them, just, not guaranteed...
I've gone over a bunch of stuff I wasn't going to mention, yet I also think I've forgotten a couple of things, too? Ain't that impressive.
I didn’t bite Spamton! 😠 That’s slander!
*1:12:41* Fun fact: Toriel _does_ in fact leave the house, to get the sugar from the car. At that very moment, we see Kris' hand peek over the window sill, and he's back inside.
In the castle-town, you can merge items to form new ones. One such item requires the thorn-ring. That means to obtain this power, you need to start the snowgrave-route an then abort it.
Or we’ll be able to get the ring back from Noelle eventually in future chapters during the Weird Route.
Look, the spell wouldn't say FATAL if Berdly wasn't dead.
Remember from Undertale, monsters can be "fallen down" for an extended period before turning to dust.
And a new layer of dust in a closet of old disused electronics wouldn't be suspicious at all.
It's possible, but Deltarune also has different rules from Undertale. We don't know if monsters turn to dust in this world when they die. Apparently it either takes very little Determination to make a dark fountain (since apparently any one Lightner can do it), OR monsters can handle loads of Determination in the Deltarune universe, unlike in Undertale. Maybe they have souls and can bleed as well?
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Berdly just goes into a coma and ends up in the hospital for the rest of his life or something. I feel like either way it would be time to move on to Jockington, Catti or someone else. (Noelle is going to remain important though, of course, since there's more to learn about her and Kris' past.)
@@lapanthanim I will say that you didn't read Queens dialogue very carefully. There are question marks in her dialogue that show she is not entirely sure of what she is saying, especially on the line where she hypothesizes that all Lightners possess the power.
She also literally says she was just guessing based on the Knight's actions.
I know what you think you believe is right, but I really have searched and searched, there is in fact no evidence that Deltarune breaks any of Undertales established rules, so right now we HAVE to assume they are the same.
Well, when you exit the Dark World after Berdly fries his wing, his wing isn't fried in the Light World. It's just painlessly paralyzed. You also always appear in the Light World with full HP, even if you aren't at full HP in the Dark World. I think that more or less proves that injuries in the Dark World don't translate directly to the Light World. If that's the case, then it's not impossible that being hit with a "Fatal" spell in the Dark World doesn't necessarily equate to dying in the Light World.
@@paradoxicaloutcome1007 OK, so if something happens in the dark world and you lose usage of your arm in both the dark and light worlds, I think that it's safe to assume that if you straight up die in the dark world, (which we are going to say that Berdly indeed did given that the spell literally says "fatal", which literally means "causing fatality ie death") I'm going to say that in the real world Berdly is either straight up dead, or completely braindead with no hope of recovery if only his conscious mind was killed. Basically two ways to say "dead"
@@krazyivan9733 Still, there is room for doubt, given we've already established the same thing does not necessarily happen between the Dark and Light worlds. Who is to say Berdly's arm won't start working later on in that scenario? And if that happens, what would that say for Berdly's "death" in the Weird Route? We just don't know yet, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Toby threw a curveball at our expectations and went "Lol you thought your choices mattered".
i think kris opened this fountain to make sure the next dark world is on their terms. the next dark world will have susie who doesnt listen to the player's choices, their mom who isn't going to stand for kris directing her to do terrible things, and possibly undyne who is-of course-undyne. kris seems to be trying to limit our access to targets that can be easily manipulated.
Interesting analysis, yeah they literally made sure law enforcement would be present, huh.
What if the player's the final boss
@@quantumblur_3145 Imagine if the vessel we made is the final boss 👀
The game is still storing it in the files through the chapters.
I betcha Toriel can be manipulated to believe Kris is in danger, and make her "defend" them from things that aren't actually threats
@@fefek1 you have a point, i can definitely see that happening
@@gristen once chapter 3 is out Imma do every single evil thing possible to try and find if there's a bad route there lmaooo it's gonna be so fun
I think there's just Kris, as one individual, and YOU, as the soul controlling Kris.
@@ItsB1998 We still don't really know the deal with souless Kris, just how are they able to rid themselves of the soul in control and operate autonomously?
Toriel crashes in on the sleep over because I don't think she saw Kris, she saw an unknow person slash her tyres in the dark, she doesn't know it was Kris. So she is keeping two children currently in her care where she can see them, safe and happy and not panicking in one room, where she can protect them from unknown person while they wait for Undyne/police help and not let Suzie walk home in the dark with potential pyscho with a knife or leave Kris home alone with pysho outside the house. 10/10 top parenting choices.
I wasn’t expecting you to turn up the volume for the “pull the strings” part in the song and that gave me immediate serotonin for no reason
man what a great lets play, I really appreciated the engagement in the lore, the characters, in the voice acting (fr I love ian's spamton and casey's norlle you're great), the stories, the emotions and the editing. And ofc I wouldn't be opposed to a "re-do" of chapter1 on the channel in whatever form :D
Casey's Queen is also great
@@doublel1503 yeah !!
its mostly speculation, but you guys are making the distinction between kris with soul and kris without a soul. i personally feel its more accurate to think of kris, and the soul. almost all things that happen are decided by the soul, or in other words, YOU. decisions are made either by kris, or by you, there is no "kris with a soul" that makes decisions, its one or the other
@@ItsB1998 who are you talking about? Because if you think that kris and the soul are the same, you have not paid a lot of attention to the playthroughs
Aw yeah, I’ve been waiting for this all week.
I’m really impressed you decided to actually take her watch early on. Usually people don’t do that unless the guide specifies. Also, the song that plays in the final hospital scene is known as Flashback, and seems to contain Gaster’s theme of all things. Make of that what you will.
Hope you guys have a happy Halloween!
That song being so similar to Gaster's theme combined with Queen's "darker, darker" line make me really weirded out. That's two Gaster references exclusive to the Snowgrave route.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS BUT IT PROBABLY MATTERS!
@@nimajneb8897 Wouldn't it make sense for Gaster to be referenced more if WE are Gaster? Hmmmm...? (There's actually a lot of evidence for this if you look hard enough, far more than for the guy everyone assumes is Gaster actually)
@@Kjf365 we as in the player or kris
@@Cream12345Ice Player lol
So listening again, I don't think that's Gaster's theme. It's still a 4-note arpeggio, but a different one from Gaster's theme.
Speculation about Susie’s family: the only other places we see purple dinosaurs-creatures are the one who wears an Ice-E head (at least in part 1) (...and the cover of the dragon drawing book). And when Torino tells her to call her family, we don’t hear her do it so it’s safe to assume she just doesn’t. So yeah, seems like her home life is likely not ideal.
I thought that the text about the closet being spacious enough to fit a large person was just referencing Queens giant form, and that the closet was her mansion. But its kind of terrifying to think about Kris not being the knight and some large (ADULT??) person spying on kids and trapping them in the different dark worlds.
"So hes just *frozen* right??..."
*meanwhile the snowgrave move description:* *FATAL.*
Spamton's dialogue towards the end of the final fight in this route makes me pity him even more.
I like the connection between chapter 1 and this route. In chapter 1 it’s made clear that you can’t influence anything. In this route we ourself can’t influence anything too but we can use someone else to change the story. I just think that’s a cool detail and I wonder how it’s gonna change in the next chapters
Rewatching this route again, I noticed something interesting. Queen says that the Knight "made", with no object. Spamton later says the same thing about Kris and Noelle, "You've been making, haven't you?"
the only person making kris do these things is you. we dont got any reason to believe that kris without YOU in them thinks any differently than when kris has you in them- the only difference is which mind has control over the body
@@ItsB1998 thats when we repeatedly say proceed. intimidatingly walking towards noelle is just part of the process of saying proceed at that point. if you say sorry ill do the puzzle kris doesnt intimidate noelle anyway
@@ItsB1998 yeah no im gonna get a bit offtopic and wonder why you seem so against the notion that kris is their own person and we the player control them. you fight against this concept in like every reply and i just dont get how you can miss the point of the game so hard lmao
anyway in that particular instance saying proceed does in fact prompt us to move towards noelle every time. im not arguing exactly that kris is vehemently against this and is in emotional distress for the whole route, but what i am saying is that they arent calling any of the sjots this time around. this is pretty clearly shown when kris is downed during the berdly fight and noelle still hears what shes come to understand as kris’ voice urging her on. thats us. kris is knocked out on the floor- they had nothing to do with us telling noelle to use snowgrave and by extension any of the other commands we said through their mouth
i dont really feel like continuing the argument tho cause you seem to be real unmovable when it comes to your idea of kris (you refuse to use their correct pronouns for example lol) so seeya
@@ItsB1998 'Proceed' is the option. It's not 'say proceed,' it's 'proceed.' There are other prompts in the game that are instructions for Kris to take action, that when chosen Kris will take that action.
@@ItsB1998 Yes, I know it doesn't have to say 'say proceed.' That wasn't my point. My point was that it's not always dialogue options we choose, but also we can choose commands, and in this case it's not clarified which 'proceed' refers to.
@@ItsB1998 You have no proof of that. You are treating your interpretation as facts even though it's too ambiguous in this specific moment to be certain.
(Unless you do have proof? If so, please present it.)
This is very fitting for Halloween
29:06 - Some people have come to the conclusion that he's saying that Kris and Noelle have been making... "Level Of ViolencE"
Isn't that a bit farfetched?
But well, it's fanfict-friendly, ain't gonna complain.
Holy shit, I finally understand the significance of why the closet is described as being big enough for a large person to fit inside... Kris CANNOT be the Knight, and whoever the Knight is was HIDING IN THE CLOSET.
Or kris used the closet to hide birdlys body
That's what I've been thinking. One, its a strange detail to include and two: Noelle and Berdly were already studying in the library before it got turned and the Library was inaccessible the first day and presumably locked up at night, so Kris couldn't have done it.
Also Noelle and Berdly had already begun studying in there since their books were on the table, so neither Kris nor Susie could've made a fountain there.
@@molo3517 probably both
Random theory right here: Papyrus is the knight (he's very tall)
Seeing Birdly non-responsive when you get back makes me think that, if this world follows the same rules as undertale (where they turn to dust when they die), than Birdly was alive after being frozen and had his consciousness sealed away with the fountain, meaning there's likely no hope for him
Kris with the red soul is us controlling them; Kris without the redsoul is Kris
I got this from somewhere else but:
At 27:00 Spamton is saying that he told you that there were 4 left & [Buy] or [Don't Buy] because even though he enabled you to go down the Weird Route ultimately it was still YOUR choice...
And at 29:06 he's implying Kris & Noelle have been making "LOVE" (and you know what that stands for right?)
There is speculation, that [HYPERLINK BLOCKED] is Choices
I'm not certain about level of violence there to be honest. I think Freedom, Choices, Chaos, or something to that affect would fit as replacements for his various [[Hyperlinked Blocked]]s throughout the game. They fit alongside Jevil's themes of freedom and chaos and how they go against the "choices don't matter" idea.
I think it's implied that the "A large person could easily fit inside" line is a reference to Kris stuffing Berdly's corpse into the closet before leaving. Because the screen goes black and the game says "You gathered all the stuff in the room" or something like that, so maybe Kris also hid Berdly's body.
Again, not confirmed, but it's something to consider.
Oh wow, that’s something really cool that I’ve never seen. The thing with the watch. It makes sense that would happen when swapping items they started with.
Though I pretty sure you missed a piece of dialogue because of that saying Noelle was going to find out what was wrong with Kris.
That's not what was going to happen lol. The watch dialog is infinitely better.
toriel probably had them all sleep in the same room because she thinks there's a burglar outside
I did not even consider that someone else could be making the fountains. It makes sense in a way, since this was the first time we hear about how to make fountains and Kris goes and makes a fountain.
I just realized that I would love to see you play omori.
Yeah it's really creepy but it's SOOO GOOD !
Seconding this SO HARD!
OMORI is goated, they would like it a lot.
Doooooo it
Hmm, I personally think that it’s not so much Kris vs the Soul, but rather. . . The soul IS belonging to Kris. . . However, It is also being controlled by US. We’re controlling Kris on a Soul-ular Level. That’s why Kris acts like a zombie when they take “us” out, because they are also taking themselves out. And it takes a lot of, determination, for them to be able to move without their soul, but it’s the only way they can be free, if only for a moment. I also think the Pie ties into this, because they can’t do it for long, so they need something to help them have enough energy to complete whatever they are trying to do.
This whole thing DOES feel very similar to the Genocide run for that reason. Something similar to “selling our soul away” happened to Kris in the past.
To me, it feels like something terrible happened to Kris, Azzy, Dess and Noelle in/around that bunker. Dess went missing. Noelle doesn’t remember it (cause I think they DID find something, even though she said the opposite. I think the memory of Dess whiping away her tears is a prominent memory for a reason. . . Some reason. . ) And something horrible happened to Kris. I think whoever that voice in the beginning was, is the who (so potentially Gaster, but who knows honestly).
It feels like we’ve been given control over Kris by this third person, but that doesn’t mean that THAT person wasn’t already trying to influence Kris before (see the cage). But maybe, they weren’t strong enough to completely control Kris, maybe Kris was able to fight back more. So then this person gives it to us, perhaps because we have more determination or something. . .
Regardless, I truly believe that Kris is a good kid, that’s been through a lot. And it’s us, the player, that is causing these things to happen. I mean, we select the dialogue options WITH the heart. And the heart is what we are possessing in this world, so it also represents us, even if it isn’t JUST us.
But yeah. Seeing as ch.3 takes place in Kris’ house, with their mother and everything. . . I feel like we are gonna get a lot more of our questions answered about Kris very soon, anyway. :P
Love how there's a full hour left, they gonna get the same experience as me fighting snowgravespamton
i think ralsei's heal feels weaker just bc all the killing increases everyone's max health. so the same amount of healing helps with a smaller total percentage
One thing that I noticed is that Toriel definitely was making up an excuse to go to the car. Because when you interact with her before going to the bathroom, it says she’s sneaking sugar from the bag. If she had sugar in the house, why would she need to get more sugar from the car? I doubt she ate the entire bag.
I like how you're pretending Kris wants this by differentiating it as Kris with and without the soul, while missing the fact that You are the soul and it's your actions, hence Kris being disturbed but being unable to do anything about it.
It's funny how you don't want to take the responsibility. Let's laugh, murderers. :)
@@ItsB1998 the 'mighty' act was a comedic part, I'll say that. I wasn't too serious on that.
Telling me I didn't pay attention to the game is a funny assumption, too, considering I've got a good mind on remembering my hobbies and can recount most dialogues word to word, but that's besides the point.
The point being, the soul was never started to be Kris's. When referring to the soul, it's been called as 'your soul' by flavor text and Ralsei. Spamton, being the first one besides Ralsei to reference Souls, when talking to Kris also calls it 'that little soul you have', not 'your little soul', the wording quite well signifying they 'have' it, but do not 'own' it.
The game in ch1 literally starts with your soul being summoned upon 'connecting', where you would have to create a vessel for it before being given Kris as a vessel instead. So no.
If it truly were Kris's, it wouldn't make much sense either. They wouldn't throw out their Own soul And regain control of their body by doing that.
All signs say the soul isnt Kris and that Kris has changed when it arrived recently, thus why toriel is only bothered recently despite most people disliking old Kris.
@@ItsB1998 I don't trust anyone giving Deltarune lore corrections that gets Kris' pronouns wrong. The SOUL belongs to Kris, that much is true. But the player clearly has possession of it and when it's inside of Kris the player has control of them as well. Kris didn't want to do anything that happened in the Snowgrave route but the player's morbid curiosity moved their mouth and body against their will. Noelle comments that the voice that comes out of Kris doesn't sound like them at all. I'm real tired of people pretending like Kris is evil when Snowgrave is entirely the player's fault.
@@ItsB1998 Hey, you can have your own interpretation and you might be right, no one can know for sure at this point what Toby's got up his sleeve. But to be frank, that's no reason to accuse other fans of ignoring things or not thinking just because they have a different interpretation of a game that's thick with lore, subtext and mystery. Ralsei could be wrong about the soul being Kris's. The "you" the narrator refers to might not be Kris. Kris's description in Chapter 1 is "Body contains a human soul," and we overwrite their save file with ours. Maybe they have their own soul they're keeping from us, or maybe the soul is theirs but we've taken possession of it somehow, or maybe they're some kind of being that doesn't need a soul (like the vessel we made at the beginning).
Going beyond just the literal text, though, people are basing their interpretations on the explicitly stated themes of the game. Kris being controlled by the player fits the themes of freedom, identity, and choices and whether or not they matter. It also fits the thread of metanarrative that's a constant in Toby's games (and I know I shouldn't base my interpretation solely on Undertale, but Deltarune is still heavily informed by what came before it).
@@ItsB1998 when walking with the trash ball, go south to see Toriel and Alphys. Toriel says you are recently weird, alphys is confused by the recently, which shows there's a baseline behavior Toriel along is used to which just changed with the soul.
Other characters like Noelle and Rudy comment how different you've been acting compared to their past. Souled Kris cannot play piano but old Kris can. There are so many signs.
Every case of you refers to the player soul, not Kris. All kris can do is warp his expression or tone when he disagrees unless he takes the soul out.
Just realized that in the part where noelle is like “woah you’ve got my watch crazy” when she leaves the sound effect for when a battle ends plays. Not sure if it’s the sound in Undertale or deltarune though
Specifically it's the sound for running away in Undertale, including when Flowey does it
Noelle and Berdly almost definitely weren't in the library when the fountain was made. They would've seen all the smoke, and also if the Knight was hiding in the closet they wouldn't have been able to leave the library before the fountain engulfed the room, also trapping them within the dark world, so we'd see them after everyone gets booted out after the fountain is sealed. The only way they wouldn't have seen any of this is if they were asleep, but neither of them show any recollection of falling asleep, and it's also just really unlikely especially for Berdly to fall asleep while studying. (Also why were they in the computer lab?? The internet's down, it's not like they can really do much.)
We don't really know what determines where people are physically placed after closing the dark fountain. It's not something that's ever explained. It's completely possible that they had their books already out in order to create a situation where Noelle's belief that she had fallen asleep could be true. Though there's no actual evidence to imply that's how the fountain works, I'm just saying there are other possible explanations and that having their books out already doesn't prove anything.
There's no official source confirming that chapter 3 is already finished, and it likely isn't considering it's implied that chapter 2 was finished only a couple weeks before the anniversary stream (Toby has said that development actually took a year and a half, but also that it didn't start till May 2020, which is only 16 months before it came out, which is a bit under a year and a half, so it was likely finished right before then. They had no plans for the anniversary stream until two weeks before it happened, so I reckon right after finishing chapter 2 is when they decided to have the stream.) But also, chapters 3, 4, & 5 are all releasing together, so even if chapter 3 is finished it won't come out for a while.
Do we know for sure that the 3 next chapters are coming out together?
@@doublel1503 Yes, it's stated in the september 2021 status update on the Deltarune website, and I think Toby's also talked about it in a couple of interviews.
Considering how long it took for Kris’ fountain to form, it’s entirely possible for the Knight to escape.
Since Berdly was also asleep, the theory that Noelle came back to her world asleep to fit her narrative is pretty flimsy imo. I think the more likely scenario is that Berdly and Noelle fell asleep while studying and the Knight made the fountain while they were asleep.
@@ghengiroo4143 yes, it's possible for the Knight to leave while the fountain is forming, but if this was while Noelle and Berdly were in the room they would see the Knight leaving unless they were asleep. If they were asleep though, there's no need for the Knight to hide in the closet.
But neither of them remembered falling asleep, and, while this isn't hard evidence, I find it extremely unlikely that either of them would fall asleep after less than 30 minutes of studying.
If Berdly appeared normally after closing the portal then he'd know it actually happened, which would contradict Noelle's belief, which is why it is technically possible for that to be the case. But I'm not saying that's actually the explanation, I'm just saying there are possible explanations that we just don't have enough information to rule out. We do know that it is possible to move around physically in the dark world, because Kris and Susie do that in the first chapter, by moving from the closet to the other classroom, so Noelle and Berdly being in a different position physically than where they entered is entirely possible.
I can’t wait till chapter 3 now, this play through has been so fun
Im so glad i found this channel through this playthrough, you two are such a comfort to listen to!!!
Thanks so much
Well, I think the reason Toriel is sleeping in the same room as Kris and Susie during this sleepover is because she knows there's a violent intruder on her property and wants to keep the kids close so she can watch over them and protect them any way she can.
Does anybody think of how weird it is that the closet said it could fit someone....like they could hide in there
It's worth noting that there is nothing indicating monsters turn to dust in Deltarune, the graveyard almost proves they don't.
Instead of Kris calling for help *you* whispered Noelle's name, not them. Also I think Toriel thought it wasn't safe outside since she said she saw someone prowling around outside on the phone so she wanted to keep Susie safe
@@ItsB1998 They. And Kris has been implied to be separate from you before, in this chapter especially. And Noelle said the voice telling her what to do was unlike Kris'
@@ItsB1998 Well that's implied too so I guess we just gotta wait till more chapters come to find out
@@ItsB1998 In the pacifist route that might be true, but in the weird route they made it really clear to differentiate between Kris and "you" in actions. Toby could've easily just keep using Kris' name, but he chose to change it.
@@ItsB1998 Rule of three is used on purpose here to distinguish "Kris" and "You". There is no reason for the first two instances to use "Kris" and then the third instance specifically to use "You" unless Toby is deliberately trying to create a pattern. It's a well-known writing convention. I know you don't believe in the player thing, but at this point you're sometimes deliberately ignoring some evidence. Even if I do ultimately agree that it cannot be undeniably proven to you at this point in Deltarune, it's still a disingenuous way of arguing.
@@ItsB1998 If you'd rather think Toby has become an incompetent writer who cannot keep his writing consistently second person in his second-person narrative and who doesn't know his writing conventions, more power to you. But again, you're willfully ignoring things that do not support your argument. You cannot seriously be claiming you see nothing out of the ordinary here and actually mean it.
Spamton got the disk himself, remember when you interacted with the basement door? He was in there.
In the last scene. My thoughts are. Toriel might not know it was Kris. So, she could also just not want Susie to leave incase it isn't safe.
Berdly could be dead, or he could be completely paralyzed. Since Snowgrave is explicitly described as "fatal" it can be assumed he's just dead, or as we saw if you attack Queen in the final battle with her and Berdly (in which he attempts to pull the plug off and loses his arm, with it being paralyzed in the real world) damage doesn't translate one to one with the light world and the dark world, so Berdly could easily be completely paralyzed. I have no clue which is worse.
Its not the case that kris wants to manipulate noel its US the player wanting this to happen thats why when we meet up with the others susie says "kris you ok you look..." which means kris is shook to the core that, that just happend like what kinda happend after spamton neo...
@@ItsB1998listen i'm not trying to attack you over this but is there any particular reason you're using he/him pronouns for kris in these comments
This was epic ngl, I hope Toby keeps up with the hype of chapter 3, 4 & 5.
Cannot wait for what we'll be able to do next =)
My personal theory is that we stuffed birdly into that closet at the end of the snowgrave route, I mean its big enough for a person to fit inside isn't it?
Ooooh... Haven't thought about that.
I don't think it's gonna be long until someone finds his corpse in there tho.
@@doublel1503 - Unless he turns to dust.
@@lasagna3289 Right...
@@lasagna3289 this isnt related but 2 pokemon pfps in one comment lol
ok yes this route is horrifying but at 1:27 "we belong down there since we're a piece of shit" made me laugh pretty hard xD I'm glad I found this channel haha
The way I see it is that Kris, unlike Frisk, is NOT the Angel; Noelle is. This means Kris themselves cannot fulfill the Angel’s Prophecy, which is to either Save or Eliminate the people Underground. This is why “your choices don’t matter” in the first chapter. However, now that Noelle is here, she is able to decide to either save or destroy them. Normally, this would be fine, and Noelle would be the hero of the story. However, The Player’s soul went into *Kris* instead. The Player wouldn’t stand by and let someone else get the credit, so they manipulate Kris against their will to control The Angel. Kris is the name of the Soulless Husk that walks around, but WE are the Soul itself. We can see this by reading the reactions of others when we choose certain options, such as to Perish by Queen (Susie: “The hell did you say that so enthusiastically?”) as well as Noelle saying the ‘Proceed’ voice was not like Kris’ voice. This is also evidenced by how our camera LEAVES Kris in Chapter 1 and Follows Susie. Our Soul has left Kris and went to her in case she got in a fight. It’s also why we can read Noelle’s mind, as she is in our party by that point and within Our Soul’s range of influence. I also believe that the other Dialogue during snowgrave from Kris is the Real Kris, who is desperately trying to break free and save their childhood friend from becoming a (Pun not intended but accepted) Monster. When we meet up with Susie and Ralsei, Susie notices that we look off, which is likely Kris being traumatized. After all, his body was used to order his oldest friend to freeze his classmate. Kris even freaks out after the Non-Snowgrave version of the Spamton EX fight, where Ralsei asks Kris if he’s okay and he _shouts_
the separation between Kris and The Player is a central theme to the story. Kris will literally separate themselves from you, forcing The Player out, just so they can do whatever they want without us controlling or seeing them. Kris is still their own person, and Kris' behaviors are their own, not The Player's. Noelle kind of emphasizes this too by saying the voice she was hearing was *not* Kris bc Kris would never say/do those things, and she is now set on her own mission to figure out what's wrong with them. we don't know how Kris got into the situation they're currently in but Deltarune and Undertale are experts at punishing The Player and making it clear that the villain/murderer is The Player. Deltarune is making it clear that Kris is not happy with what The Player made them do, and they much rather would've had a happier ending and not be alone. so yeah i'd think it's pretty important to think about even if it's just chapter 2 bc that's gonna be huge throughout the whole story.
edit: and about monsters turning into dust, we don't know if those same rules apply. it's implied by Queen talking about how the Knight made the world and how any Lightner has determination- Darkners don't have that. in DR, there is a graveyard, which we didn't see in UT. what we know is that in UT they would spread the ashes on their favorite thing, but it seems like they bury the body with their favorite thing in DR. but also the attack said Fatal. that boy is dead.
@@ItsB1998 the "terrifying" voice isn't there because you're not doing anything terrifying. The voice is still there it's just not scary, or as noticable. Like all the characters can hear it but Susie will ignore it and do her own thing (like the moment in chapter 2 and the normal route where Ralsei and Susie are alone and like "What would Kris do? You answer and then they DONT do it despite hearing what you said bc they don't like the idea) and on a normal route you're not asking Noel to murder people so she's not nearly as frightened or upset.
@@ItsB1998 Yes but whether or not you subscribe to the theory that the voice isn't Kris that's proof it's still there. They hear it. So that's proof it's there, unless you think that's just then assuming what they think Kris WOULD say and not actually hearing a voice.
Now just bc they "ask Kris" doesn't mean it's necessarily Kris, it just means they assume it's Kris.
@@ItsB1998 I'm not saying the voice is the best evidence for the possessor theory, I'm saying it's real in all routes not just the weird one.
(I don't believe in the 3rd entity btw)
@@ItsB1998 it sounds *off* not bc it sounds different from how Kris *sounds* but bc Kris doesn't *act* like that.
As far as Susie knows the suggestion you make is very Kris, But the whole weird route is very not Kris.
It's constantly stated and implied how off Kris has been acting.
@@ItsB1998 Did you mean weird? And not good?
Also ya that's how I normally interpreted it.
Kris it's much more likely to suggest eating moss then murdering people and even if Kris wasn't Susie and Ralsie didn't really know Kris before being possessed (whether we are the possessor or not) so they wouldn't know what's being suggested is off. Noel's known Kris all their life so she can tell something's off.
How I interpreted it is the voice isn't off because it is or isn't Kris in snowgrave, it's off bc of what's being said. "Proceed" and "It's natural" and the whole ride with noel scene. It's creepy ya know?
And Noel even if only subconsciously can kind of tell it's not Kris.
Of course I could be wroung about why the voice is seen as "off" in the weird route but it definitely exists in all of them.
WOW! I watched this and part one of the Snowgrave route because it sounded *really* cool to watch people who are completely blind to the route experiencing it (it most definitely was), but now I ended up really liking you two haha
Kinda makes me wish I watched your normal route of chapter 2 first, but I'll probably end up watching it later and maybe checking out any potential other content too 👀
found this playthrough 2 years late but after watching many playthroughs from many different creators i think this is my favorite interpretation of queen's voice. A major part of her humor to me is her All Caps Text Style, and i think the way she was voice acted captures it well and in the process translates the humor audibly, something lacking in other interpretations i've heard! (not that i expect great or perfect ones in the first place, but hearing this one was a pleasant surprise
Fun fact: On the regular route, the description for the toy with the beads says that the beads march resolutely along their path. In this route, it adds onto the end of that by noting that one of the beads has been torn off.
I'd love to see a let's play of chapter 1. Get official thank you so much it's been years since I've seen chapter 1, and I'd really like to see how it feels retroactively with chapter 2
I absolutely love your thoughts and analysis's in these videoes. As a hardcore DR theorist I really love your theories, especially the one on the closet in the computer lab, that one blew my damn mind lmao-
I always assumed that it implied Kris hiding Berdly's body in it, but the knight hiding inside is so much more fascinating. If you do play chapter 1, I would love to see more of your perspectives, because ngl your letsplay of this game is by far my favorite lol
I’d love to see a chapter 1 replay! It’d be awesome to see y’all notice all the details that you didn’t see before.
Toriel probably doesn’t want Susie to get attacked by whoever slashed her tires. In the same vein, she’s probably sleeping in the same room just in case whoever it was tries to break in or something. Because she doesn’t know it’s Kris that slashed them
Also I hope it’s not napstablook or undyne that come; I really love these new characters and I want to meet more of them
The fact you managed to first try Spamton NEO Snowgrave version is baffling to me, but it's amazing nonetheless
Yeah so spamton’s dialogue at the end there is kind of referencing himself and his life and comparing it with Kris’s life, or his decisions so far (maybe lack of decisions is better here)
Yeah…he starts projecting HARD
Also same thing happens if you don’t recruit anyone it’s no different. Because the darkeners are turned into statues if you leave them behind if you weren’t aware.
I wonder if anybody realize at the end when they were talking about who was in the closet at the library nobody mentioned asgore nor did they think why they don't see him at the flower shop
Why do you keep referring to ralsei with gender neutral pronouns, Kris is the NB one 😆
Some languages use neutral pronouns for everyone and rely on context to determine gender. If you think it's silly for gender to be needlessly injected into everything, it makes sense to toss out a neutral pronoun now and then, since they're just that . . . neutral. (Of course, if someone has a stated preference against them, that would be rude.)
I mean. When you use them alot, pronouns can just pop out.
@@ItsB1998 I would point out that Kris is like Frisk, there are no gendered pronouns used. Techbically to make the player better get sucked in. But it feels nice as an NB person to see it.
@@evan_sunprinceI think that since Kris's family and friends, people like Toriel that they've known all their life, use neutral pronouns for them, that rather strongly implies that they're NB. With Frisk, it could have been that monsters just didn't know how to tell human genders apart, haha. It's true that we don't know specifically how Kris identifies, though. We know very little about them and I'm entirely sure that's on purpose on Toby's part.
I would like to point out, regarding Kris's pronouns, in the first chapter Kris is never referred to by singular third person pronouns. The characters all use some pretty interesting phrases to dance around this, which seems to me like it was an intentional design decision to never refer to Kris using gendered pronouns, not even the potentially gendered 'they/them.'
The second chapter drops this, likely because there are so many scenes where it would start sounding really awkward to be avoiding singular third person pronouns. So Kris isn't really confirmed to be non-binary, though they can be, if that's what you want.
Queen with an epic voice is what I'm here for
1:06:35 **something about years upon years upon years**