7:16-7:23 Actually what Obi-wan said was "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" and then after there was the retconned reveal in ESB when Star Wars became Episode IV: A New Hope, there was the "Certain point of view scene," which I don't remember at the moment whether that was in ESB or RotJ.
I like that you sound very calm the whole video and not agitated, because in the end it only really matters if you like or dislike it, not how others feel. And quite brave as well as unpopular opinions usually get shutdown quickly
Thanks man. I also think it was important to show Anakins origin, but I think the execution wasn't very good. In fact I wish they'd focused a lot more on Anakin rather than distracting from him with the war, etc. Going on. I think it'd have been better as a more personal character driven trilogy.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt The war, the jedi code, being separated from his mother at an early age but late enough to remember her... those are all things taking a huge toll on a boy and later a young man. At one point this guy is gonna break. How couldn't he? These are all factors that need to be there to explain how a child that never ever showed any inherent sadistic tendencies can develop into someone like Vader. Similar patterns can often be seen within the stories of real life Psychopaths, serial killers and such.
@sihilius You're definitely right about how realistically what Anakin went through would lead to trauma and problems in later life, but this is exactly the kind of missed opportunity I'm talking about. Other than the scene where Anakin goes back in the Clone Wars and avenges his mother, his trauma and reaction to these events is barely explored, and he never thinks about it again or mentions it to anyone for the rest of the movie or all throughout Revenge of the Sith. If you've read ASOIAF, contrast that with how some of the POV characters (e.g. Tyrion) are deeply affected by their past trauma. It shapes them and their actions, and in some cases they obsess over it.
The prophecy plotline was really underdeveloped. At this point I personally like to headcanon that the prophecy was made up but from a certain point of view it was still true, where Anakin only became "The Chosen One" when he decided to throw Palpatine down the shaft. In a way everyone is "Chosen one" in their own respected stories, since It took the galaxy to all come together to fight off the empire instead of it just falling under one person. Even in the TPM there's the message that only when people are united they can they be able to overcome adversity with Anakin claiming that the biggest problem in the universe is that no one helps each other out. This whole idea about the true chosen one kinda like in the Lego movie, blade runner 2049, The Matrix, or even the first kung fu panda movie, where the protagonists becomes special not because of some ancient scroll says they are but rather through their own choices and the type of people they chose to be.
Largely, yes I do agree with the points made. I believe the prequel trilogy could have explored all of this over a much longer period of time. But I still find it worth mentioning that the best character of the prequels was Palpetine and how his machinations could corrupt a democracy into a totalitarian state (though this too could be further explored). The basis of the worldbuilding at least allowed for this much exploration.
Thanks appreciate you subscribing and sharing your thoughts! I also agree that Palpatine was probably the best part of the prequel trilogy, that's why they felt the need to bring him back. Ironically it'd have been better to do the prequels over 6 episodes instead of 3 and not bother with the horrible new sequel trilogy.
I agree, Anakin's turn to vader was forced and abrupt, it wasnt done justice, he was a angry, whiney dude from the get of EP2, he never felt like a good dude that got seduced by the dark side.
The prequels really are the personification of the phrase "Great idea, poor execution". For me, they only work if I think of them as the story of how one Sith Lord took down the Republic and made himself Emperor. But even that story only really works if you take additional material (Clone Wars and the Novels) into account. I think that a lot of the people who defend the prequels are really actually defending the overall continuity that is created when you have both the prequels and this additional material. Which is indeed great. But by themselves, the prequels just leave far too many things open
Yep, I'm a firm believer that if a movie series or TV show can't stand on its own and needs to be explained by books or other supplementary material, then it's still failed at storytelling.
I'll be honest. I don't mean to insult your intelligence. Or your film literacy. But how can you NOT see that story just by watching the films. All stuff like TCW does is just elaborate on Palpatine's manipulation and accentuate it, but the genius of the plan is *all* there in the films. I hate it when people say all prequel defenders are just talking about the supplemental material. The prequels work as movies and I often rewatch them from time to time. I show them to a lot of people who don't even KNOW about this supplemental material
@@officialmonarchmusic The films basically only provide you with the bullet points. The details that actually make the politics believable are in the novels and in the clone wars. Palpatine's plan to take down Vallorum (it goes a lot deeper than the invasion making the senate look weak, which never made sense to me). The Jedi's corruption (the movie tells us many times that they are corrupt, but when is it shown? When do they take a corrupt action in the movie?). Why people literally willingly voted their powers away (it wasn't actually so willing)
@@todorstojanov3100The Jedi are not corrupt. They have fallen from their grace, and act as more of soldiers and police of the republic than they should, and we DO see that. Palpatine’s plan to take down Valorum is more complicated than we see in the films, but it doesn’t NEED to be. We see all we need to. The invasion makes Valorum look weak, and exposes his lack of power, which gets a vote of no confidence Why would people willingly give up their own power? It happens all the time, that’s what the film is warning against
@@officialmonarchmusic If you are convinced by Valorum's downfall in the movies, that's good, but I'm not. The invasion had barely begun and Valorum would have had to overpower the rest of the senate. Him losing the vote of confidence because of that works as a bullet point, but not if I want to really believe the worldbuilding. In the novels, you get a lot more details about how Palpatine made it look like Valorum received money from the Trade Fedaration, which ended up ruining his reputation. THAT is a believable reason for me. But I will concede that it is only natural that a novel can do a lot more for worldbuilding than a movie can. The problem is twofold: The politics are really the only interesting part of the story for me. But most of the fanbase hated the politics. I never cared about Anakin in the movies. He was a cute kid in the first movie and a downright obnoxious arrogant brat in the second and third. He's constantly jelaous and arrogant and constantly thinks his power makes him better than others. He essentially already had the traits of a sith while being a Jedi. He had reasons to be like that. Especially after losing his mother. But he comes across as simply being like that by default, from the very beginning of Attack of the Clones. The Clone Wars on the other hand managed to really establish him as a character who you would like to be around but whom you do not want to make angry. It showed us a progression from that to the insecure Anakin in Revenge of the Sith as he loses Ahsoka to the corruption and hypocrisy of the Jedi Council. Whereas in the movies you are left wondering just why he is so distrustful towards them. The reason he was so mad about not being a master is because he wanted access to the archives to find a way to save Padme. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not remember this being explicitly communicated in Revenge of the Sith. Instead, he again comes across as an arrogant brat who doesn't understand that being a master is more about wisdom than about power. So, to review my original position: The prequels on their own do provide a coherent story, but a flawed one. They are much more enjoyable to watch with the knowledge of what happened behind the scenes. They are much more enjoyable when you understand that what Anakin really cares about isn't being a master but access to the archives. They are much more enjoyable when you know how Palpatine is hiding his presence in the Force from the Jedi.
@@matthewchen3678 Go read any of the Republic comics issues by Dark Horse. Anakin is still broody and brash, but he's got a more humane and caring side to him there without being turned into a goodie two shoes
I guess you haven't watched Clone Wars, I recommend you to watch it. It deepens the character of Anakin enough and Even when he's a Jedi, you can see him "Vader" when it comes to his loved ones.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Oh definitely. Unfortunately if you don't see Clone Wars and perhaps even read some novelizations, you get a very angsty, intolerable, one-dimensional Anakin from just the prequels alone. With SW, the non-trilogy and even the non-canon stuff is often important in getting a holistic view of the characters.
The prophecy of the chosen one should have been shown to the audience as a part of visual storytelling, or through another character, perhaps even Anakin himself reading through it. If anything it should have described Luke and his arc as we understand it, perhaps Anakin would disagree with it or outright dismiss it as being applicable to himself. And certainly the prequels should have started either with Anakin at Luke's original age, or in his prime alongside Obi-Wan. We should have seen him become better and brighter briefly, like Lucifer before the fall. Yet understood his doubts and frustrations with the Jedi and their dogmatic culture. His fall should have been far more gradual and akin to Walter White and set against the backdrop of the clone wars. Where his grace and morality is chipped away at little by little until only what we recognise as Vader remains. Yet even at that point we should have also seen glimpses of good still in him. The last thing we needed to see was his implied massacre of children. He should have set them free, maybe even attempted to protect them from the Emperor and defy such orders. Instead of rushing to wrap it up like the end of Episode 3 and put everyone in their next episode positions, we should have got Vader put into, or already in the suit around the start of the third film. We should have seen how his fall affected everyone around him, how his wife ran into exile with their children, how he was hunting down and destroying the Jedi. Instead of what we saw recently in Kenobi, Vader should have kicked his ass, but also shown another flicker of goodness inside him and let him go. Seeing things like these would have given far more weight to his lines in the original trilogy. "You should not have come back." Could have then come to mean "Now I have to kill you, but I never wanted to." and "It is too late for me, son." Could have become the heaviest line and come to mean "I know I screwed up so bad, there's nothing more I want to do but run away with you. But look at me, I'm more than half a machine now, bound, gagged, and chained to my Emperor." This would make his ultimate sacrifice at the end even more of a gut punch than it was. And as for the final scene with the force ghosts, it should have always been Sebastian Shaw there. That was Anakin as he was redeemed, not as the man he was before. To see him older like that visually tells us all of his sins have been washed away and that he's truly embraced the light again and been forgiven, as well as forgiven himself.
The prequels are about Obi Wan, how his flawed master forced a slave boy on him through emotional manipulation, how Obi Wan improperly trained the liberated slave out of moral obligation rather than any genuine desire, how Obi Wan became attached to and appreciative of the liberated slave, whom he started to treat better, and how the former slaved proceeded to destroy Obi Wan's life. The prequels were about chattel being a horrible thing to turn people into and how chattel has to be carefully reintegrated back into society. The fact that a society with robots for every purpose still practiced chattel was a commentary about how the economic excuses for the practice are nothing but excuses and how a society with no intent to carefully reintegrate chattel into freeman ranks deserves to die. Anakin Skywalker was a monster, but he was a tragic monster who could have been pacified with proper schooling and education. Instead he was given a weapon, a badge and the arcane knowledge to choke people who answer his phone calls. What did they think was going to happen?
True there's a lot that the movies kind of skim over. Like why did Anakin never go back and liberate his mother? Why do the Jedi allow slavery to exist if they're so "good"? And their whole philosophy and order always seemed suspect to me.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt The Jedi allowing chattel slavery to exist is almost excusable. The Jedi are not lawyers, judges or law makers. However, they are public figures with considerable influence. One scene with a Jedi arguing to a senator about chattel being both morally deplorable and economically outdated in an era where even chattel themselves can build functioning droids out of scrap would have gone a long way in making the setting more sensible. A very flawed system Jedi are trying slowly to fix versus a Sith actively making it worse would have been an interesting narrative. What we got was a clearly less than desirable system presented as good enough, while the rogue senator makes it even worse with no competent opposition to him until a couple of sword fights after he's already won, politically. The slow, tragic downfall of Obi Wan was the only thing I really found worthwhile.
Completely disagree. The prequels are the best trilogy and the turn of Anakin as well as the plot of Palpatine is the most interesting storyline in all of star wars
@@prestonrussell1913it’s really not. As a millennial I strongly dislike Luke, who as a character exists only to redeem Anakin. Anakin is so much more interesting compared to Luke. Luke without Anakin can’t exist on his own. It’s bad writing 101.
@@pitrah4365i think that both are interesting characters. Luke represents the hero’s journey and what Jedi should be. Anakin shows the moral struggle and how anyone can back from the darkness
Yeah, interesting thoughts, I never really questioned his turn to the dark side when betraying Mace Windu, since I just accepted it when I first watched it as a kid. I get where you are coming from, we can see that the Clone Wars TV show tried to shape his evolution such that it wouldn't feel like he was a maniac from the get-go. But his constant emotional imbalance in Episode 2 and especially the simply weird relationship with Padme really brought down his character and made it feel really cliché. The chosen one turning evil because his love dies or might die.
Completely agree with everything you said tbh. Like you, the first time I watched the series I was quite young so I didn't pick up on this stuff until I rewatched it when I was older. The idea for the prequels was great but I think George Lucas just didn't have the writing ability to pull it off. A lot of people have said the clone wars series went a long way towards fixing the mistakes of the trilogy, so I'm planning on watching that at some point.
Another weird thing about the chosen one prophecy is also what metric is someone determined to be this chosen one obviously their force abilities by those medi chlorine things But how high does it need to be to be considered the chosen one was Yoda ever considered the chosen one he was supposed to be an incredibly high never matched before benchmark who also had the benefit of hundreds of years to become the best and more importantly there is also the issue of that the so called chosen one comes at a time when the Sith are seemingly already extinct or as they find out only two of them so what's the point of a chosen one When the Jedi have 10s of thousands in the Sith only have two guys from the Jedi's perspective of episode one when they meet Anakin and conclude chosen one the Sith Lords don't really seem like they could ever challenge the Jedi in any meaningful way particularly with Mace Windu and Yoda the Jedi or even at their seemingly strongest so while we the audience will see why a chosen one is needed the Jedi with their much smaller amount of information should conclude the Seth are nothing more than a nuisance To be haunted down and slaughtered or even just ignored there was also the issue with the prophecy that's never quite brought up About balance and let the jedi seem to view Balance has just their side winning How is the light side dominating the galaxy in practitioners of the dark side completely wiped out any form of balance So the wording of the prophecy it doesn't even seem to favor the Jedi it clearly means by the definition of balance that there would be an equal amount of light and dark which even that he fails to do unless a person only watches the movies in which case balance could be interpreted as 2 Jedi and two sith Which even that really doesn't quite workout since it's not really a balance it's the sith in complete control So even without the sequel trilogy bringing back the dark side he never does bring balance to the forest all's he ever does is swing the pendulum drastically in one direction first swinging it when it was heavily to the light side towards the dark and then when he kills his master himself he's just swinging it back to the light side
This is the second video I have seen today where I feel that "you don't understand Star Wars". Obviously not just Disney. If you understand Star Wars, then you would not be comparing Anakin to Harry Potter. That's like comparing Cat Woman to Barbie. Yes, they are both women, that's about as far as it goes. You cannot compare Anakin to Harry Potter. They are both very valid people, but there is no comparison. Their journeys are completely different
One of my biggest problems with the prequel trilogy is the episode one being what it is it was a complete waste of a movie we did not need to see child Anakin get recruited into the Jedi because he should have entered the Jedi just like anyone else there shouldn't have been a big importance to it episode two should have just been episode one so we could have episode one be the start of the clone wars episode two the fall of Anakin Skywalker then episode three the hunt for the Jedi ending in his getting maimed in a volcano the story also needed to rewritten how the Jedi operate as rather then being noble champions of the light they come off more as indoctrinated cultist who seemed so Deathly afraid of any emotion that they seemed to fear even noble emotions such as love and compassion so rather than being the opposite of the dark side they seem to be more of what would be in the exact metal just emotionless The whole needing to kidnap infants Because they need to be indoctrinated before they learn any emotions is incredibly creepy and paints the Jedi order as one that camp justify its ideology any ideology that requires you to kidnap infants and brainwash them so that they can't conceive of any other ideology and can't experience any free thought outside of narrow teachings is not an ideology that can stand scrutiny and another small problem I have with the prequel trilogy is the lightsaber colors honestly I thought it was incredibly blame that George Lucas a guy who's famous for making characters specifically just to sell toys for no real justifiable reason decided not to use any colors outside of the ones in the original trilogy Except for Samuel Jackson who George Lucas kissed his ass and Let have a unique color basically giving a middle finger to every other Jedi actor which while George Lucas is right is kind of douchey and Makes him kind of an asshole to everybody else who would have enjoyed a non blue or green lightsaber and by having just a few lightsaber colors it makes the action scenes with the Jedi seem less distinct less unique and honestly to George Lucas's detriment allows for the less selling of toys which I've never understood he could have sold so many more lightsaber toys if he had allowed A whole rainbow of colors
100% agree that episode 1 was a waste of time, since Anakin was a child and didn't have much relevance to the story. I also agree that the Jedi doctrine is very flawed when you think about it, and it's kind of weird that nobody challenges them in the story. Everyone just seems to accept what they're doing. And the whole thing about not feeling emotion because it leads to the dark side is really confusing and contradictory in the movies. Agree on the colours, also taking it even further it'd have been cool to see more variance in the actual blades themselves. In the movies we just get Maul with the double ended saber and I guess Grievous is kind of unique with the 4 blades but otherwise there's nothing else.
They didn't ruin anything. Prequels perfect show how monsters aren't born - they are cretaed. They showed how even big villain as Vader was once a child and then young man in love, acting in emotions like typica teenegare, he had his dreams, hopes and fears; and then he succumbed to darkness. Poetic and chilling.
In Star Wars? There are some minor characters like Dooku who I liked. I also liked Vader in the Obi Wan show, although I thought the show itself wasn't great.
I don’t mind the idea that there is a prophecy, but it is kind of bs that its not told where it comes from. I like the idea that Anakin is supposed to be “special” or at least a well above average Jedi, but i don’t think the prequels did a great job at… well, a lot. I agree with your point about him never being a good dude, at least regarding Attack of the Clones. I do think they kinda failed in making Anakin a character I could see becoming Vader. I always perceived Vader as being a cold and calculating and highly controlled man. He was like an authoritarian general that took for granted the idea that might makes right and that the dark side simply provides more of that might without restriction. He believes the Empire is good because he believes it is simply effective. He seeks power for its own sake. The prequels don’t show Anakin become this person. Anakin in Ep 3 does not become cold, calculating, and controlled. He’s angry and reckless, just about the opposite. He doesn’t seek power for its own sake. In fact, he’s never shown to care about his own personal political power like Vader does. He is shown to desire force power to save the ones he loves, but its not shown how this transforms into a desire for power over others like Vader desires. Honestly, i don’t see how Anakin in Ep 3 would continue along his journey to the dark side after Padme’s death. In short, i think the prequel trilogy shows the journey of Anakin Skywalker transforming into… evil Anakin Skywalker and not the Darth Vader we know for the OT. I simple think thats less satisfying than if we had seen Anakin turn into a character that actually resembled the Vader we know (in ways other than appearance).
All great points - I agree with everything you said. I think Anakin could have been "special" in the sense of being a wise and respected Jedi, kind of like Yoda or Mace Windu, rather than it just being a prophecy about him.
I was a little surprised to see so many fans of the prequel series, but I understand that compared to the new Disney trilogy it probably seem like a masterpiece.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptjust please don’t become one of these RUclipss who edit sound effects in their videos, whenever a graphic or text is displayed on screen. You know what I mean; popping noises, whooshing noises, clicking noises. There’s no need for it. It’s becoming an epidemic now. RUclipsrs seem to think it makes their videos more entertaining or more fun, but the truth is it ms annoying and distracts from being able to relax and take in the message. Please don’t follow this ridiculous trend. Even though your audio quality is poor, I found your whole video entertaining and informative and I liked your take on prequel era Star Wars. And that’s more important than audio quality. And definitely more important than unnecessary sound effects.
@RichieW90210 thanks man really appreciate that. I know exactly what you mean and I'll definitely stay away from all that - it's enough just knowing people like you enjoy the videos in the style they are.
The real prequels to me are the Clone Wars series there we see Anakin slowly turning to the dark side instead of the abrupt change that we see from episode 2 to 3
I've heard a lot of people say good things about that series. It's on my list to watch, but honestly the state of star wars media recently has started killing my interest in the franchise.
I hate the chosen one prophecy, and I couldn’t agree more with you on that. I always thought it’d make more sense for Anakin to be a powerful Jedi in his own right and was seduced by the dark side for power and to become stronger. And ultimately his son brings him back to the light… not because it was part of the prophecy, but because he finally let’s go of the dark side and embraces the light, his son.
Episode 1 and 2 completely waste Anakin and made him whiny and annoying but the clone wars made him genuinely likeable. Clone Wars Anakin is what Prequels Anakin should have been.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt yeah I used to watch it when I was younger. But it has Anakin training an Apprentice which shows a strong friendship bond with her. He also has a sense of humour and goes on plenty of adventures with Obi-Wan growing their brotherly bond. If they had stuff like this in the movies then Anakins fall in ROTS would have actually been heartbreaking
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt - The first episode of The Clone Wars - if you want to call it that - was a movie and was rather mediocre. The regular TV episodes, however, got increasingly better (and did so quickly) and really redeemed Anakin. Clone Wars Anakin had a short temper, but was certainly not whiny, he treated the Clone Troopers under his command with value, he was a pretty good trainer / mentor towards Ahsoka (who possessed a rebellious streak similar to his own) and he would go to ANY length to protect his friends and allies. Also, Clone Wars featured a Clone Trooper called Captain Rex, who would have been awesome on his own. The show also vastly improved both Padme and (I kid you not) Jar Jar.
Yeah because I always felt that he was always disturbed way before he got to the Jedi Academy and the same goes his grandson Kylo Ren because I think he is just bipolar that they both are those kind of people who make mistakes but never except the responsibility and blame other people for their own fault and misfortunes like Anakin blames Obi wan for ruining his life and for Kylo Ren he blames his uncle for making him this way but I was under the impression that he chose that life willingly as he killed an old man without a second thought. But I think that Chosen one prophecy thing kinda spoil Anakin as just because you’re the chosen one doesn’t mean sense of entitlement and I’m starting to think that Rey is the chosen one for bringing back Palpatine was pretty pointless and the sequel trilogy took away those achievements as the Force Awakens was not only a remake of a New Hope but made the ending of the Return of the Jedi like it never happened.
Completely agree, and good point about Kylo Ren closely mirroring Anakin. Ironically enough he was wasted in just the same way, Kylo Ren was the most interesting part about the new trilogy for me, if they had completely focused on him it would have been much better.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptbut I also think they shouldn’t have killed off Snoke so early and he should have been Darth Plagueis the wise and also there is no doubt that Rey is a Mary Sue
It seems most of your replies didn't actually watch the video. They are either adding all the stuff THEY hate about Anakin, or providing an insufficient response. So I'd like to give mine. *Point 1: Vader is made too important:* I'd argue the greatest strength of this prophecy is the in-universe role it serves. It's what gives Qui-Gon justification for training Anakin at one of the most vulnerable ages in his life, old enough to remember his mother, but too young to handle the loss properly. It also creates an automatic friction with the council that causes severe trust issues with the leaders of the Jedi order. He enters the order with the knowledge that the council were largely opposed to even ALLOWING Anakin to enter. There are few people who know the details of the prophecy and Anakin's connection to it, I don't even think Anakin himself knew the full extent of it, but the Jedi council have a watchful eye on Anakin from the minute he enters, and Anakin knows it. This causes Anakin to feel a social pressure and a sense of otherness to the order. I actually liked the idea of Anakin not knowing about the prophecy for a change because it's a good shakeup from most Chosen One narratives. It makes it look even more like he's just a pawn in a game he doesn't understand. What's less important than the prophecy itself is the indirect byproducts of it on the story. This, in my opinion, is how most Chosen One stories *should* do things. On the other hand, I don't think having this narrative really hurts anything, least of all Anakin's character. There's one crucial element you are forgetting. Anakin is a relatively *passive* character in TPM. He's arguably a side character with much less agency, and it's very intentional. It therefore makes sense that he's not the one who creates that importance. However, by AOTC, we're dealing with a different story here. Anakin HAS proved his worth in the eyes of the council and actively seeks to improve his reputation. Outside of the legitimately awful scene in the elevator, (Like seriously, who wrote that) this is really well handled. Anakin demonstrates unusual strength and skill, and is headstrong but determined and motivated to help. More on that in this next section. Point 1a: Too flimsy, too vague, too poorly explained: I'd argue the details of the actual prophecy are pretty straightforward. The existence of the Sith is in it of itself, an imbalance. The dark side will always exist, but the light side of the force, and by extension the Jedi, pushes it back. The Sith use of the force purely to serve themselves as opposed to the Jedi, who seek to serve the will of the force. I don't really share the view that making it a prophecy invalidates the character's decisions. It was just a big prediction, Anakin didn't fulfill the prophecy to fulfill the prophecy, he did it because he loved his son. It actually feels similar to Harry Potter in that way. He fell to the dark side BECAUSE people around him focused to heavily on the prophecy. The only parts that are not clarified are the origins of it, as you said. I agree that the vagueness is annoying, and it's an easy one-line fix. "An ancient Jedi prophecy..." would tell us all the information we're missing if Qui-Gon just said it. There was a whole subplot of Qui-Gon becoming increasingly obsessed with the ancient Jedi prophecies, as Obi-Wan grows more and more worried in the Phantom Menace, but it was sadly cut down. However, to answer your other question: the believability and opinion of the prophecy can't be clearer. In Revenge of the Sith, it's established that Yoda and Mace are both doubtful, as opposed to Mace's relative confidence in Anakin in the previous film. So yes, the believability of the prophecy is questioned. There's more that could be elaborated on, but I don't think that this is a major flaw in Anakin's character, and is more than worth the benefits I outlined above. *Point 2: Anakin was bad to begin with:* You're conveniently leaving out The Phantom Menace here. Anakin was 100% innocent in that film. You're also largely ignoring ROTS. Despite having a conflict with Obi-Wan in AOTC, the two still clearly love each other. In Revenge of the Sith, we see how Anakin is mature how his relationship with Obi-Wan improved even from the first shot, by seeing the fighters flying in perfect synchronization, to how they communicate to each other on the Invisible Hand. During this mission, Anakin is depicted as friendly, and loyal, despite still being a little headstrong. He has a happy relationship with his wife, and his turn to the dark side is born out of noble intentions. I feel like this turn was well handled because it many ways, it is quite like Anakin snapping. The buildup is increasing on Revenge of the Sith, and when Anakin makes his move to stop Windu, he sacrifices the rest of his humanity. He's grappling with the shock of what he's done when it hits him: He's singlehandedly burned his chance of ever getting a life with the Jedi, or with Padme. And in that moment, he collapses, and the only thing he can think of is saving Padme. It's very built up to, I'd argue. So, this comment literally took me an hour to write. I get that you are busy, but I'd love to discuss this with you in the replies. (That is, if you even get to this point) I think this analysis is heavily flawed and I'd love to really hash it out with you
Hey. First of all I wanted to thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed comment - I really appreciate how willing you are to engage with the video. You raise some very interesting points. It probably makes the most sense if I go in the same order as you went: Point 1: You made some good points about the initial setup it gives to the story. Qui-Gon wanting to train Anakin, and importantly the conflict it introduces between the Jedi council and how they perceive/mistrust Anakin. What I'd say off the back of that though is that the story didn't really commit enough either way. Although you're right, there's some conflict as a result of the mistrust they have for Anakin due to the prophecy, it's only really referred to at a surface level, and we rarely get fleshed out scenes of the Jedi discussing the prophecy at length, and their concerns around Anakin. There are a few obvious scenes, but they're few and far between. Perhaps it was a good idea to have the prophecy, but they should have really leaned into it if that was the case. Or, they could have done away with it, and simply made Anakin to be a powerful force user who Qui Gon wanted to train after empathising with his situation, and the mistrust could have been a result of fear of his strength and concerns about his age. There didn't need to be a prophecy, although I concede it's possible to have one, but if they had one it should have been given more attention and focus in the movies. Point 1a: I see where you're coming from, but I still think it's far too vague. I don't think the idea of the Sith themselves being an imbalance came across clearly in the movie - and even so it's unclear if that's an absolute truth or bias from the Jedi (because, after all, they stand to benefit by removing the threat of the Sith). The Jedi claim to serve the will of the force, but we aren't really given any insight into what that means and if we can trust the Jedi or not (what happens if 2 Jedi disagree, as Qui Gon and the council did). It's a shame that sub-plot with Qui Gon was cut out because I think it would have added a lot in this regard to the movies. Point 2: True, but in Phantom Menace he was also a child with very little influence or agency so I think it's a moot point. He effectively only becomes a meaningful character in AOTC. In ROTS, they do show some nice scenes between him and Obi Wan, but I think the movies fall into the trap of telling us rather than showing us. We get scenes of Obi Wan and Anakin talking about the times they saved each other and how long they've known each other, but at least to me it feels hollow because most of the time we see them together they're at odds with one another. Especially in AOTC, where it feels like they spend the whole movie angry at each other and arguing. The romance storyline between Anakin and Padme was really badly done as well in my opinion, in large part due to how poorly George Lucas writes dialogue between the 2 of them.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Alright! Sorry it's been a while. I'd also like to respond in this order. Point 1: I don't think the prophecy creates enough drawbacks to justify the prophecy being a net *negative* for the story instead of a net *positive*. They COULD have gone more into the prophecy, but I don't think the lack of them necessarily hurts the narrative. I don't think Lucas intended to center the whole story on the prophecy, and he may have been right to do so. Despite this, I can feel like taking out the prophecy element makes some of Qui-Gon's actions in pushing so extremely for Anakin more confusing, and for him to make it as his dying wish. As such, I feel like the prophecy functions more like it does in Harry Potter. There's nothing to say that it was ALWAYS determined, but Qui-Gon's AND the council's AND the emperor's respective takes on the prophecy were what made it happen, not the prophecy. I also think the subplot needed to be in there, it made the conflict between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in that film a lot more meaningful, and made the ending a lot more cathartic. It's actually one of my biggest issues with the Phantom Menace. Point 1a: Maybe it was too vague. But the "destroy the Sith" part couldn't be plainer. And I arrived at the conclusion I did not through any extended media, (funnily enough, it isn't really detailed in extended media, and also we both share the same rule about supplemental material) but just what was given to me in the films. I think there's enough there to figure it out. Point 2: The elevator scene where we meet Obi-Wan is the worst writing in the entire trilogy. But aside from that ONE scene, I think the relationship is communicated well, through showing rather than telling. Despite their bickering during the speeder chase, they are shown to anticipate each other's moves and know each other well. In ROTS, we see how much better they communicate during the opening sequence. Full Fat Videos actually has a great video on the subject. Truthfully though, we don't see Obi-Wan and Anakin together too much in AOTC because the film's plot is TOO big. That's actually my biggest issue with the film. But I think what we got was enough, certainly not enough to "ruin" Darth Vader. Secondly, a large part of why the romance feels rushed is because of bizarre choices made in the editing room. We're not seeing the full arc of the Anakin and Padme romance, we're only seeing the beginning and ending. The middle, by far the most interesting part, was left on the cutting room floor, yet I encourage you to check those scenes out. As it stands, I think it makes enough sense. Padme has been surrounded by politicians who scheme her whole life, and this is one of her only times with a guy who doesn't believe in mincing words and just says things how they are. It actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
Anakin was never going to be a super manly macho man if anything the prequels actually make the story of Anakin better, by showing his short comings and showing how he became the pathetic man that was Darth Vader.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt It's strange, because watching the prequels kind of enhanced his aura for me. After ROTS, I realized Vader is as ruthless as he is because he's a man with nothing left to lose, and there's hardly anything more dangerous and terrifying than that
No he was not. The force is not "balanced" after the fall of the Jedi. It's further out of balance than ever. Bringing balance to the force was when he destroyed the Sith, George Lucas has said this HIMSELF
@@JohnDeereNeverDiesNo it isn’t. There cannot be “too much light”. The Jedi are described as people who serve the will of the force, which keeps the force in balance. In this way, you can think of the light side as “the force” and the dark side as “the selfish, corrupted unnatural way it can be used”. It can only be mitigated, but never eradicated completely. Think about it this way, was the galaxy depicted as a better place after the force was “balanced” to your definition? No. What is the “happy ending” we are given at the end of the saga. It is with the Sith destroyed, and a Jedi order being rebuilt. The only thing in Star Wars that supports your idea is the presumption of the Light and the Dark being opposite equivalents, which is unsupported by anything Lucas gave us
@@JohnDeereNeverDiesDid you notice how in the first six movies people rarely if ever say "Light Side of the Force"? Well, that's because the Light side of the force is just the force. When Sith manipulate the force for selfish reasons they end up causing an imbalance.
Yep, well said. Anakin's character is the worst part of Revenge of the Sith which is an awesome movie. It just doesnt land when he is killing children. Dooku is more the character that you are asking for to be the main character. One thing is Vader really feels like he has lost all his passion and yet anakin must still have a lot of passion, being still young when he gets the suit
After learning his wife died and he is to blame for it, he's just a broken man, filled with rage and self hatred. At the same time he has nowhere to go, nobody to turn to, except the man that talked him into this. So all he can do is take this place as a intimidating, seemingly emotionless enforcer and if need be killer for the emperor. With his family and everyone of his friends gone, where would you expect any passion to be left in him? What should he be passionate about? For sure not power for the sake of power itself - he just isn't that kind of guy - palps is the one to represent exactly that.
Thanks man. I agree, I actually do enjoy Revenge of the Sith despite them dropping the ball with Anakin. Dooku was a great character and it's a shame he ended up wasted in the trilogy. Interesting point about Anakin getting the suit when he's young, I'd never thought about it before but you're right if you asked me before watching the prequels I'd assume he became Vader as an older man/later into his Jedi career.
The second act of Revenge of the Sith is pretty bad Kashyyyk and Grievous have nothing to do with the overall narrative, Anakin's turn to evil feels too rushed, and it still has Lucas's awful dialogue.
You wanna know what I hear? "WAAA! It's not what I wanted so it sucks! WAAAA! How dared George Lucas make the movies he wanted to make, instead of making the movies I WANTED HIM to make WAAAAAA!!!!" Just like every single other prequel-basher ever, none of your points are objectively valid criticisms. Instead they're the whinings of an entitled fanboy, who think he knows Star Wars and it's characters better than the guy who created Star Wars and it's characters.
7:16-7:23 Actually what Obi-wan said was "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" and then after there was the retconned reveal in ESB when Star Wars became Episode IV: A New Hope, there was the "Certain point of view scene," which I don't remember at the moment whether that was in ESB or RotJ.
I like that you sound very calm the whole video and not agitated, because in the end it only really matters if you like or dislike it, not how others feel. And quite brave as well as unpopular opinions usually get shutdown quickly
Thank you! Yeah I always like to share my honest thoughts, whether or not other people agree. But I also do like hearing different views and opinions.
Nice video but I disagree. It was important to know Anakin’s origins and how Luke and Leia were born. Not to mention how he knew the emperor.
Thanks man. I also think it was important to show Anakins origin, but I think the execution wasn't very good. In fact I wish they'd focused a lot more on Anakin rather than distracting from him with the war, etc. Going on. I think it'd have been better as a more personal character driven trilogy.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt that’s fair but more people want epic space battles than character arcs.
Lol yes very true to be fair
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt The war, the jedi code, being separated from his mother at an early age but late enough to remember her... those are all things taking a huge toll on a boy and later a young man. At one point this guy is gonna break. How couldn't he?
These are all factors that need to be there to explain how a child that never ever showed any inherent sadistic tendencies can develop into someone like Vader. Similar patterns can often be seen within the stories of real life Psychopaths, serial killers and such.
@sihilius You're definitely right about how realistically what Anakin went through would lead to trauma and problems in later life, but this is exactly the kind of missed opportunity I'm talking about. Other than the scene where Anakin goes back in the Clone Wars and avenges his mother, his trauma and reaction to these events is barely explored, and he never thinks about it again or mentions it to anyone for the rest of the movie or all throughout Revenge of the Sith. If you've read ASOIAF, contrast that with how some of the POV characters (e.g. Tyrion) are deeply affected by their past trauma. It shapes them and their actions, and in some cases they obsess over it.
The prophecy plotline was really underdeveloped.
At this point I personally like to headcanon that the prophecy was made up but from a certain point of view it was still true, where Anakin only became "The Chosen One" when he decided to throw Palpatine down the shaft. In a way everyone is
"Chosen one" in their own respected stories, since It took the galaxy to all come together to fight off the empire instead of it just falling under one person. Even in the TPM there's the message that only when people are united they can they be able to overcome adversity with Anakin claiming that the biggest problem in the universe is that no one helps each other out.
This whole idea about the true chosen one kinda like in the Lego movie, blade runner 2049, The Matrix, or even the first kung fu panda movie, where the protagonists becomes special not because of some ancient scroll says they are but rather through their own choices and the type of people they chose to be.
Interesting take! I like your view on this, I think that's a good way to look at it.
Largely, yes I do agree with the points made. I believe the prequel trilogy could have explored all of this over a much longer period of time. But I still find it worth mentioning that the best character of the prequels was Palpetine and how his machinations could corrupt a democracy into a totalitarian state (though this too could be further explored). The basis of the worldbuilding at least allowed for this much exploration.
And PS, I have subscribed. I enjoy the videos and am looking forward to seeing your channel grow. Best of luck.
Thanks appreciate you subscribing and sharing your thoughts! I also agree that Palpatine was probably the best part of the prequel trilogy, that's why they felt the need to bring him back. Ironically it'd have been better to do the prequels over 6 episodes instead of 3 and not bother with the horrible new sequel trilogy.
I agree, Anakin's turn to vader was forced and abrupt, it wasnt done justice, he was a angry, whiney dude from the get of EP2, he never felt like a good dude that got seduced by the dark side.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said.
The prequels really are the personification of the phrase "Great idea, poor execution".
For me, they only work if I think of them as the story of how one Sith Lord took down the Republic and made himself Emperor. But even that story only really works if you take additional material (Clone Wars and the Novels) into account. I think that a lot of the people who defend the prequels are really actually defending the overall continuity that is created when you have both the prequels and this additional material. Which is indeed great. But by themselves, the prequels just leave far too many things open
Yep, I'm a firm believer that if a movie series or TV show can't stand on its own and needs to be explained by books or other supplementary material, then it's still failed at storytelling.
I'll be honest. I don't mean to insult your intelligence. Or your film literacy. But how can you NOT see that story just by watching the films. All stuff like TCW does is just elaborate on Palpatine's manipulation and accentuate it, but the genius of the plan is *all* there in the films. I hate it when people say all prequel defenders are just talking about the supplemental material. The prequels work as movies and I often rewatch them from time to time. I show them to a lot of people who don't even KNOW about this supplemental material
@@officialmonarchmusic The films basically only provide you with the bullet points. The details that actually make the politics believable are in the novels and in the clone wars.
Palpatine's plan to take down Vallorum (it goes a lot deeper than the invasion making the senate look weak, which never made sense to me). The Jedi's corruption (the movie tells us many times that they are corrupt, but when is it shown? When do they take a corrupt action in the movie?). Why people literally willingly voted their powers away (it wasn't actually so willing)
@@todorstojanov3100The Jedi are not corrupt. They have fallen from their grace, and act as more of soldiers and police of the republic than they should, and we DO see that.
Palpatine’s plan to take down Valorum is more complicated than we see in the films, but it doesn’t NEED to be. We see all we need to. The invasion makes Valorum look weak, and exposes his lack of power, which gets a vote of no confidence
Why would people willingly give up their own power? It happens all the time, that’s what the film is warning against
@@officialmonarchmusic If you are convinced by Valorum's downfall in the movies, that's good, but I'm not. The invasion had barely begun and Valorum would have had to overpower the rest of the senate. Him losing the vote of confidence because of that works as a bullet point, but not if I want to really believe the worldbuilding. In the novels, you get a lot more details about how Palpatine made it look like Valorum received money from the Trade Fedaration, which ended up ruining his reputation. THAT is a believable reason for me.
But I will concede that it is only natural that a novel can do a lot more for worldbuilding than a movie can. The problem is twofold:
The politics are really the only interesting part of the story for me. But most of the fanbase hated the politics.
I never cared about Anakin in the movies. He was a cute kid in the first movie and a downright obnoxious arrogant brat in the second and third. He's constantly jelaous and arrogant and constantly thinks his power makes him better than others. He essentially already had the traits of a sith while being a Jedi. He had reasons to be like that. Especially after losing his mother. But he comes across as simply being like that by default, from the very beginning of Attack of the Clones.
The Clone Wars on the other hand managed to really establish him as a character who you would like to be around but whom you do not want to make angry. It showed us a progression from that to the insecure Anakin in Revenge of the Sith as he loses Ahsoka to the corruption and hypocrisy of the Jedi Council. Whereas in the movies you are left wondering just why he is so distrustful towards them.
The reason he was so mad about not being a master is because he wanted access to the archives to find a way to save Padme. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not remember this being explicitly communicated in Revenge of the Sith. Instead, he again comes across as an arrogant brat who doesn't understand that being a master is more about wisdom than about power.
So, to review my original position:
The prequels on their own do provide a coherent story, but a flawed one. They are much more enjoyable to watch with the knowledge of what happened behind the scenes. They are much more enjoyable when you understand that what Anakin really cares about isn't being a master but access to the archives. They are much more enjoyable when you know how Palpatine is hiding his presence in the Force from the Jedi.
Clone wars Anakin is peak Anakin
No, not remotely. They had to turn him into a school jock to make him likable.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 I feel like that was always going to happen, change his characteristics to ensure that people would actually like anakin
@@matthewchen3678 Go read any of the Republic comics issues by Dark Horse. Anakin is still broody and brash, but he's got a more humane and caring side to him there without being turned into a goodie two shoes
And is a retcon and dosen't connect with ep 3 anakin
I guess you haven't watched Clone Wars, I recommend you to watch it. It deepens the character of Anakin enough and Even when he's a Jedi, you can see him "Vader" when it comes to his loved ones.
I haven't watched it but it's been recommended to me a lot. Thanks I think I'll check it out, it sounds like it does what the prequels should have.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Oh definitely. Unfortunately if you don't see Clone Wars and perhaps even read some novelizations, you get a very angsty, intolerable, one-dimensional Anakin from just the prequels alone. With SW, the non-trilogy and even the non-canon stuff is often important in getting a holistic view of the characters.
it doesn't really matter this video is about why the prequels are bad, not about Clone Wars or anything else
@@prestonrussell1913 But this subthread is about Clone Wars so hmmm...
@@wyattE415 but I'm saying that Clone Wars is irrelevant, yeah it's good but this video is not a criticism of Clone Wars
The prophecy of the chosen one should have been shown to the audience as a part of visual storytelling, or through another character, perhaps even Anakin himself reading through it. If anything it should have described Luke and his arc as we understand it, perhaps Anakin would disagree with it or outright dismiss it as being applicable to himself. And certainly the prequels should have started either with Anakin at Luke's original age, or in his prime alongside Obi-Wan. We should have seen him become better and brighter briefly, like Lucifer before the fall. Yet understood his doubts and frustrations with the Jedi and their dogmatic culture. His fall should have been far more gradual and akin to Walter White and set against the backdrop of the clone wars. Where his grace and morality is chipped away at little by little until only what we recognise as Vader remains.
Yet even at that point we should have also seen glimpses of good still in him. The last thing we needed to see was his implied massacre of children. He should have set them free, maybe even attempted to protect them from the Emperor and defy such orders. Instead of rushing to wrap it up like the end of Episode 3 and put everyone in their next episode positions, we should have got Vader put into, or already in the suit around the start of the third film. We should have seen how his fall affected everyone around him, how his wife ran into exile with their children, how he was hunting down and destroying the Jedi. Instead of what we saw recently in Kenobi, Vader should have kicked his ass, but also shown another flicker of goodness inside him and let him go.
Seeing things like these would have given far more weight to his lines in the original trilogy. "You should not have come back." Could have then come to mean "Now I have to kill you, but I never wanted to." and "It is too late for me, son." Could have become the heaviest line and come to mean "I know I screwed up so bad, there's nothing more I want to do but run away with you. But look at me, I'm more than half a machine now, bound, gagged, and chained to my Emperor." This would make his ultimate sacrifice at the end even more of a gut punch than it was. And as for the final scene with the force ghosts, it should have always been Sebastian Shaw there. That was Anakin as he was redeemed, not as the man he was before. To see him older like that visually tells us all of his sins have been washed away and that he's truly embraced the light again and been forgiven, as well as forgiven himself.
The prequels are about Obi Wan, how his flawed master forced a slave boy on him through emotional manipulation, how Obi Wan improperly trained the liberated slave out of moral obligation rather than any genuine desire, how Obi Wan became attached to and appreciative of the liberated slave, whom he started to treat better, and how the former slaved proceeded to destroy Obi Wan's life.
The prequels were about chattel being a horrible thing to turn people into and how chattel has to be carefully reintegrated back into society. The fact that a society with robots for every purpose still practiced chattel was a commentary about how the economic excuses for the practice are nothing but excuses and how a society with no intent to carefully reintegrate chattel into freeman ranks deserves to die. Anakin Skywalker was a monster, but he was a tragic monster who could have been pacified with proper schooling and education. Instead he was given a weapon, a badge and the arcane knowledge to choke people who answer his phone calls. What did they think was going to happen?
True there's a lot that the movies kind of skim over. Like why did Anakin never go back and liberate his mother? Why do the Jedi allow slavery to exist if they're so "good"? And their whole philosophy and order always seemed suspect to me.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt The Jedi allowing chattel slavery to exist is almost excusable. The Jedi are not lawyers, judges or law makers. However, they are public figures with considerable influence. One scene with a Jedi arguing to a senator about chattel being both morally deplorable and economically outdated in an era where even chattel themselves can build functioning droids out of scrap would have gone a long way in making the setting more sensible.
A very flawed system Jedi are trying slowly to fix versus a Sith actively making it worse would have been an interesting narrative. What we got was a clearly less than desirable system presented as good enough, while the rogue senator makes it even worse with no competent opposition to him until a couple of sword fights after he's already won, politically. The slow, tragic downfall of Obi Wan was the only thing I really found worthwhile.
Anakin Never fell because he was never good
he didn't turn into Darth Vader he already was
Mm, he kind of crossed the line already in the clone wars to be honest.
Completely disagree. The prequels are the best trilogy and the turn of Anakin as well as the plot of Palpatine is the most interesting storyline in all of star wars
Fair enough man I won't say your opinion is wrong. I'd be curious to hear more though if you're happy to elaborate?
Could you explain why you think that. Because it just seems like the original trilogy is better written and better directed?
@@prestonrussell1913it’s really not. As a millennial I strongly dislike Luke, who as a character exists only to redeem Anakin. Anakin is so much more interesting compared to Luke. Luke without Anakin can’t exist on his own. It’s bad writing 101.
@@pitrah4365That’s a cute opinion. Did a RUclipsr give it to you? (rhetorical question, the answer is clearly yes)
@@pitrah4365i think that both are interesting characters. Luke represents the hero’s journey and what Jedi should be. Anakin shows the moral struggle and how anyone can back from the darkness
Yeah very good points, they’ve been kind of overlooked compared to how the sequels ruined the story
Thanks man. Honestly the Disney trilogy was so bad it makes the prequels seem decent by comparison.
Disney Trilogy ruined Star Wars forever.
Yeah, interesting thoughts, I never really questioned his turn to the dark side when betraying Mace Windu, since I just accepted it when I first watched it as a kid. I get where you are coming from, we can see that the Clone Wars TV show tried to shape his evolution such that it wouldn't feel like he was a maniac from the get-go. But his constant emotional imbalance in Episode 2 and especially the simply weird relationship with Padme really brought down his character and made it feel really cliché. The chosen one turning evil because his love dies or might die.
Completely agree with everything you said tbh. Like you, the first time I watched the series I was quite young so I didn't pick up on this stuff until I rewatched it when I was older. The idea for the prequels was great but I think George Lucas just didn't have the writing ability to pull it off. A lot of people have said the clone wars series went a long way towards fixing the mistakes of the trilogy, so I'm planning on watching that at some point.
Another weird thing about the chosen one prophecy is also what metric is someone determined to be this chosen one obviously their force abilities by those medi chlorine things But how high does it need to be to be considered the chosen one
was Yoda ever considered the chosen one he was supposed to be an incredibly high never matched before benchmark who also had the benefit of hundreds of years to become the best
and more importantly there is also the issue of that the so called chosen one comes at a time when the Sith are seemingly already extinct or as they find out only two of them so what's the point of a chosen one When the Jedi have 10s of thousands in the Sith only have two guys
from the Jedi's perspective of episode one when they meet Anakin and conclude chosen one the Sith Lords don't really seem like they could ever challenge the Jedi in any meaningful way particularly with Mace Windu and Yoda the Jedi or even at their seemingly strongest
so while we the audience will see why a chosen one is needed the Jedi with their much smaller amount of information should conclude the Seth are nothing more than a nuisance To be haunted down and slaughtered or even just ignored
there was also the issue with the prophecy that's never quite brought up About balance and let the jedi seem to view Balance has just their side winning How is the light side dominating the galaxy in practitioners of the dark side completely wiped out any form of balance
So the wording of the prophecy it doesn't even seem to favor the Jedi it clearly means by the definition of balance that there would be an equal amount of light and dark which even that he fails to do
unless a person only watches the movies in which case balance could be interpreted as 2 Jedi and two sith Which even that really doesn't quite workout since it's not really a balance it's the sith in complete control
So even without the sequel trilogy bringing back the dark side he never does bring balance to the forest all's he ever does is swing the pendulum drastically in one direction first swinging it when it was heavily to the light side towards the dark and then when he kills his master himself he's just swinging it back to the light side
This is the second video I have seen today where I feel that "you don't understand Star Wars". Obviously not just Disney. If you understand Star Wars, then you would not be comparing Anakin to Harry Potter. That's like comparing Cat Woman to Barbie. Yes, they are both women, that's about as far as it goes. You cannot compare Anakin to Harry Potter. They are both very valid people, but there is no comparison. Their journeys are completely different
One of my biggest problems with the prequel trilogy is the episode one being what it is it was a complete waste of a movie we did not need to see child Anakin get recruited into the Jedi because he should have entered the Jedi just like anyone else there shouldn't have been a big importance to it
episode two should have just been episode one so we could have episode one be the start of the clone wars episode two the fall of Anakin Skywalker then episode three the hunt for the Jedi ending in his getting maimed in a volcano
the story also needed to rewritten how the Jedi operate as rather then being noble champions of the light they come off more as indoctrinated cultist who seemed so Deathly afraid of any emotion that they seemed to fear even noble emotions such as love and compassion so rather than being the opposite of the dark side they seem to be more of what would be in the exact metal just emotionless
The whole needing to kidnap infants Because they need to be indoctrinated before they learn any emotions is incredibly creepy and paints the Jedi order as one that camp justify its ideology
any ideology that requires you to kidnap infants and brainwash them so that they can't conceive of any other ideology and can't experience any free thought outside of narrow teachings is not an ideology that can stand scrutiny
and another small problem I have with the prequel trilogy is the lightsaber colors honestly I thought it was incredibly blame that George Lucas a guy who's famous for making characters specifically just to sell toys for no real justifiable reason decided not to use any colors outside of the ones in the original trilogy Except for Samuel Jackson who George Lucas kissed his ass and Let have a unique color basically giving a middle finger to every other Jedi actor which while George Lucas is right is kind of douchey and Makes him kind of an asshole to everybody else who would have enjoyed a non blue or green lightsaber
and by having just a few lightsaber colors it makes the action scenes with the Jedi seem less distinct less unique and honestly to George Lucas's detriment allows for the less selling of toys which I've never understood he could have sold so many more lightsaber toys if he had allowed A whole rainbow of colors
100% agree that episode 1 was a waste of time, since Anakin was a child and didn't have much relevance to the story.
I also agree that the Jedi doctrine is very flawed when you think about it, and it's kind of weird that nobody challenges them in the story. Everyone just seems to accept what they're doing. And the whole thing about not feeling emotion because it leads to the dark side is really confusing and contradictory in the movies.
Agree on the colours, also taking it even further it'd have been cool to see more variance in the actual blades themselves. In the movies we just get Maul with the double ended saber and I guess Grievous is kind of unique with the 4 blades but otherwise there's nothing else.
They didn't ruin anything. Prequels perfect show how monsters aren't born - they are cretaed. They showed how even big villain as Vader was once a child and then young man in love, acting in emotions like typica teenegare, he had his dreams, hopes and fears; and then he succumbed to darkness. Poetic and chilling.
Is there any portrayal you actually like?
In Star Wars? There are some minor characters like Dooku who I liked. I also liked Vader in the Obi Wan show, although I thought the show itself wasn't great.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Calling Count Dooku a minor character is such a wild thing to say.
@@Shiobana753 To be honest in the movies he kind of feels like it, he barely makes an appearance. I know he's expanded on more in the books.
I don’t mind the idea that there is a prophecy, but it is kind of bs that its not told where it comes from. I like the idea that Anakin is supposed to be “special” or at least a well above average Jedi, but i don’t think the prequels did a great job at… well, a lot. I agree with your point about him never being a good dude, at least regarding Attack of the Clones.
I do think they kinda failed in making Anakin a character I could see becoming Vader. I always perceived Vader as being a cold and calculating and highly controlled man. He was like an authoritarian general that took for granted the idea that might makes right and that the dark side simply provides more of that might without restriction. He believes the Empire is good because he believes it is simply effective. He seeks power for its own sake. The prequels don’t show Anakin become this person. Anakin in Ep 3 does not become cold, calculating, and controlled. He’s angry and reckless, just about the opposite. He doesn’t seek power for its own sake. In fact, he’s never shown to care about his own personal political power like Vader does. He is shown to desire force power to save the ones he loves, but its not shown how this transforms into a desire for power over others like Vader desires. Honestly, i don’t see how Anakin in Ep 3 would continue along his journey to the dark side after Padme’s death.
In short, i think the prequel trilogy shows the journey of Anakin Skywalker transforming into… evil Anakin Skywalker and not the Darth Vader we know for the OT. I simple think thats less satisfying than if we had seen Anakin turn into a character that actually resembled the Vader we know (in ways other than appearance).
All great points - I agree with everything you said. I think Anakin could have been "special" in the sense of being a wise and respected Jedi, kind of like Yoda or Mace Windu, rather than it just being a prophecy about him.
The prequels didn't ruin anything.
They ruined everything. And not just Star Wars, but everything.
@@RichieW90210whatever you say angry guy
@@RichieW90210 How did they ruin everything?
@@trevturp6891 I was just doing an impression of Mr Pickett. From red letter media
@@RichieW90210 They didn't.
Zoomers have grown up with such a desolate media landscape that they think these and other 2000’s movies were good. Sad.
I was a little surprised to see so many fans of the prequel series, but I understand that compared to the new Disney trilogy it probably seem like a masterpiece.
Qui Gon: The Ability To Speak Does Not Make You Intelligent
Did you record this in your bathroom or something?
Lol yeah I'd like to get a better mic at some point if possible. Not sure if it's my mic or the room or something else.
Get one with a filter on front. It will be crisp
Thanks I'll try and get one
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptjust please don’t become one of these RUclipss who edit sound effects in their videos, whenever a graphic or text is displayed on screen.
You know what I mean; popping noises, whooshing noises, clicking noises. There’s no need for it. It’s becoming an epidemic now. RUclipsrs seem to think it makes their videos more entertaining or more fun, but the truth is it ms annoying and distracts from being able to relax and take in the message.
Please don’t follow this ridiculous trend.
Even though your audio quality is poor, I found your whole video entertaining and informative and I liked your take on prequel era Star Wars.
And that’s more important than audio quality. And definitely more important than unnecessary sound effects.
@RichieW90210 thanks man really appreciate that. I know exactly what you mean and I'll definitely stay away from all that - it's enough just knowing people like you enjoy the videos in the style they are.
The real prequels to me are the Clone Wars series there we see Anakin slowly turning to the dark side instead of the abrupt change that we see from episode 2 to 3
I've heard a lot of people say good things about that series. It's on my list to watch, but honestly the state of star wars media recently has started killing my interest in the franchise.
We don't really see that . We see a super confident anakin something tjat contradict the prequels
The sequels ruined Star Wars as a whole. The prequels told a great story about a man who is lied to and turns to evil 😈
I hate the chosen one prophecy, and I couldn’t agree more with you on that. I always thought it’d make more sense for Anakin to be a powerful Jedi in his own right and was seduced by the dark side for power and to become stronger. And ultimately his son brings him back to the light… not because it was part of the prophecy, but because he finally let’s go of the dark side and embraces the light, his son.
Completely agree. That would have been so much more meaningful and emotional in my opinion. Star wars has a lot of wasted potential as a franchise.
Episode 1 and 2 completely waste Anakin and made him whiny and annoying but the clone wars made him genuinely likeable. Clone Wars Anakin is what Prequels Anakin should have been.
Is that the animated show? A lot of people have recommended it to me but I never got round to watching it. Maybe I should.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt yeah I used to watch it when I was younger. But it has Anakin training an Apprentice which shows a strong friendship bond with her. He also has a sense of humour and goes on plenty of adventures with Obi-Wan growing their brotherly bond. If they had stuff like this in the movies then Anakins fall in ROTS would have actually been heartbreaking
Thanks man it sounds really good, I'll definitely give it a go
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt - The first episode of The Clone Wars - if you want to call it that - was a movie and was rather mediocre. The regular TV episodes, however, got increasingly better (and did so quickly) and really redeemed Anakin.
Clone Wars Anakin had a short temper, but was certainly not whiny, he treated the Clone Troopers under his command with value, he was a pretty good trainer / mentor towards Ahsoka (who possessed a rebellious streak similar to his own) and he would go to ANY length to protect his friends and allies.
Also, Clone Wars featured a Clone Trooper called Captain Rex, who would have been awesome on his own.
The show also vastly improved both Padme and (I kid you not) Jar Jar.
Anyone who hates the prequels hasn't read the EU and are Star Wars casuals. Look at the Clone Wars Multimedia Project.
One of the BIGGEST L takes of all time man.
Yeah because I always felt that he was always disturbed way before he got to the Jedi Academy and the same goes his grandson Kylo Ren because I think he is just bipolar that they both are those kind of people who make mistakes but never except the responsibility and blame other people for their own fault and misfortunes like Anakin blames Obi wan for ruining his life and for Kylo Ren he blames his uncle for making him this way but I was under the impression that he chose that life willingly as he killed an old man without a second thought.
But I think that Chosen one prophecy thing kinda spoil Anakin as just because you’re the chosen one doesn’t mean sense of entitlement and I’m starting to think that Rey is the chosen one for bringing back Palpatine was pretty pointless and the sequel trilogy took away those achievements as the Force Awakens was not only a remake of a New Hope but made the ending of the Return of the Jedi like it never happened.
Completely agree, and good point about Kylo Ren closely mirroring Anakin. Ironically enough he was wasted in just the same way, Kylo Ren was the most interesting part about the new trilogy for me, if they had completely focused on him it would have been much better.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptbut I also think they shouldn’t have killed off Snoke so early and he should have been Darth Plagueis the wise and also there is no doubt that Rey is a Mary Sue
It seems most of your replies didn't actually watch the video. They are either adding all the stuff THEY hate about Anakin, or providing an insufficient response. So I'd like to give mine.
*Point 1: Vader is made too important:* I'd argue the greatest strength of this prophecy is the in-universe role it serves. It's what gives Qui-Gon justification for training Anakin at one of the most vulnerable ages in his life, old enough to remember his mother, but too young to handle the loss properly. It also creates an automatic friction with the council that causes severe trust issues with the leaders of the Jedi order. He enters the order with the knowledge that the council were largely opposed to even ALLOWING Anakin to enter. There are few people who know the details of the prophecy and Anakin's connection to it, I don't even think Anakin himself knew the full extent of it, but the Jedi council have a watchful eye on Anakin from the minute he enters, and Anakin knows it. This causes Anakin to feel a social pressure and a sense of otherness to the order. I actually liked the idea of Anakin not knowing about the prophecy for a change because it's a good shakeup from most Chosen One narratives. It makes it look even more like he's just a pawn in a game he doesn't understand. What's less important than the prophecy itself is the indirect byproducts of it on the story. This, in my opinion, is how most Chosen One stories *should* do things.
On the other hand, I don't think having this narrative really hurts anything, least of all Anakin's character. There's one crucial element you are forgetting. Anakin is a relatively *passive* character in TPM. He's arguably a side character with much less agency, and it's very intentional. It therefore makes sense that he's not the one who creates that importance. However, by AOTC, we're dealing with a different story here. Anakin HAS proved his worth in the eyes of the council and actively seeks to improve his reputation. Outside of the legitimately awful scene in the elevator, (Like seriously, who wrote that) this is really well handled. Anakin demonstrates unusual strength and skill, and is headstrong but determined and motivated to help. More on that in this next section.
Point 1a: Too flimsy, too vague, too poorly explained: I'd argue the details of the actual prophecy are pretty straightforward. The existence of the Sith is in it of itself, an imbalance. The dark side will always exist, but the light side of the force, and by extension the Jedi, pushes it back. The Sith use of the force purely to serve themselves as opposed to the Jedi, who seek to serve the will of the force. I don't really share the view that making it a prophecy invalidates the character's decisions. It was just a big prediction, Anakin didn't fulfill the prophecy to fulfill the prophecy, he did it because he loved his son. It actually feels similar to Harry Potter in that way. He fell to the dark side BECAUSE people around him focused to heavily on the prophecy.
The only parts that are not clarified are the origins of it, as you said. I agree that the vagueness is annoying, and it's an easy one-line fix. "An ancient Jedi prophecy..." would tell us all the information we're missing if Qui-Gon just said it. There was a whole subplot of Qui-Gon becoming increasingly obsessed with the ancient Jedi prophecies, as Obi-Wan grows more and more worried in the Phantom Menace, but it was sadly cut down. However, to answer your other question: the believability and opinion of the prophecy can't be clearer. In Revenge of the Sith, it's established that Yoda and Mace are both doubtful, as opposed to Mace's relative confidence in Anakin in the previous film. So yes, the believability of the prophecy is questioned. There's more that could be elaborated on, but I don't think that this is a major flaw in Anakin's character, and is more than worth the benefits I outlined above.
*Point 2: Anakin was bad to begin with:* You're conveniently leaving out The Phantom Menace here. Anakin was 100% innocent in that film. You're also largely ignoring ROTS. Despite having a conflict with Obi-Wan in AOTC, the two still clearly love each other. In Revenge of the Sith, we see how Anakin is mature how his relationship with Obi-Wan improved even from the first shot, by seeing the fighters flying in perfect synchronization, to how they communicate to each other on the Invisible Hand. During this mission, Anakin is depicted as friendly, and loyal, despite still being a little headstrong. He has a happy relationship with his wife, and his turn to the dark side is born out of noble intentions. I feel like this turn was well handled because it many ways, it is quite like Anakin snapping. The buildup is increasing on Revenge of the Sith, and when Anakin makes his move to stop Windu, he sacrifices the rest of his humanity. He's grappling with the shock of what he's done when it hits him: He's singlehandedly burned his chance of ever getting a life with the Jedi, or with Padme. And in that moment, he collapses, and the only thing he can think of is saving Padme. It's very built up to, I'd argue.
So, this comment literally took me an hour to write. I get that you are busy, but I'd love to discuss this with you in the replies. (That is, if you even get to this point) I think this analysis is heavily flawed and I'd love to really hash it out with you
Hey. First of all I wanted to thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed comment - I really appreciate how willing you are to engage with the video.
You raise some very interesting points. It probably makes the most sense if I go in the same order as you went:
Point 1: You made some good points about the initial setup it gives to the story. Qui-Gon wanting to train Anakin, and importantly the conflict it introduces between the Jedi council and how they perceive/mistrust Anakin. What I'd say off the back of that though is that the story didn't really commit enough either way. Although you're right, there's some conflict as a result of the mistrust they have for Anakin due to the prophecy, it's only really referred to at a surface level, and we rarely get fleshed out scenes of the Jedi discussing the prophecy at length, and their concerns around Anakin. There are a few obvious scenes, but they're few and far between. Perhaps it was a good idea to have the prophecy, but they should have really leaned into it if that was the case. Or, they could have done away with it, and simply made Anakin to be a powerful force user who Qui Gon wanted to train after empathising with his situation, and the mistrust could have been a result of fear of his strength and concerns about his age. There didn't need to be a prophecy, although I concede it's possible to have one, but if they had one it should have been given more attention and focus in the movies.
Point 1a: I see where you're coming from, but I still think it's far too vague. I don't think the idea of the Sith themselves being an imbalance came across clearly in the movie - and even so it's unclear if that's an absolute truth or bias from the Jedi (because, after all, they stand to benefit by removing the threat of the Sith). The Jedi claim to serve the will of the force, but we aren't really given any insight into what that means and if we can trust the Jedi or not (what happens if 2 Jedi disagree, as Qui Gon and the council did). It's a shame that sub-plot with Qui Gon was cut out because I think it would have added a lot in this regard to the movies.
Point 2: True, but in Phantom Menace he was also a child with very little influence or agency so I think it's a moot point. He effectively only becomes a meaningful character in AOTC. In ROTS, they do show some nice scenes between him and Obi Wan, but I think the movies fall into the trap of telling us rather than showing us. We get scenes of Obi Wan and Anakin talking about the times they saved each other and how long they've known each other, but at least to me it feels hollow because most of the time we see them together they're at odds with one another. Especially in AOTC, where it feels like they spend the whole movie angry at each other and arguing. The romance storyline between Anakin and Padme was really badly done as well in my opinion, in large part due to how poorly George Lucas writes dialogue between the 2 of them.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Alright! Sorry it's been a while. I'd also like to respond in this order.
Point 1: I don't think the prophecy creates enough drawbacks to justify the prophecy being a net *negative* for the story instead of a net *positive*. They COULD have gone more into the prophecy, but I don't think the lack of them necessarily hurts the narrative. I don't think Lucas intended to center the whole story on the prophecy, and he may have been right to do so. Despite this, I can feel like taking out the prophecy element makes some of Qui-Gon's actions in pushing so extremely for Anakin more confusing, and for him to make it as his dying wish. As such, I feel like the prophecy functions more like it does in Harry Potter. There's nothing to say that it was ALWAYS determined, but Qui-Gon's AND the council's AND the emperor's respective takes on the prophecy were what made it happen, not the prophecy. I also think the subplot needed to be in there, it made the conflict between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in that film a lot more meaningful, and made the ending a lot more cathartic. It's actually one of my biggest issues with the Phantom Menace.
Point 1a: Maybe it was too vague. But the "destroy the Sith" part couldn't be plainer. And I arrived at the conclusion I did not through any extended media, (funnily enough, it isn't really detailed in extended media, and also we both share the same rule about supplemental material) but just what was given to me in the films. I think there's enough there to figure it out.
Point 2: The elevator scene where we meet Obi-Wan is the worst writing in the entire trilogy. But aside from that ONE scene, I think the relationship is communicated well, through showing rather than telling. Despite their bickering during the speeder chase, they are shown to anticipate each other's moves and know each other well. In ROTS, we see how much better they communicate during the opening sequence. Full Fat Videos actually has a great video on the subject. Truthfully though, we don't see Obi-Wan and Anakin together too much in AOTC because the film's plot is TOO big. That's actually my biggest issue with the film. But I think what we got was enough, certainly not enough to "ruin" Darth Vader. Secondly, a large part of why the romance feels rushed is because of bizarre choices made in the editing room. We're not seeing the full arc of the Anakin and Padme romance, we're only seeing the beginning and ending. The middle, by far the most interesting part, was left on the cutting room floor, yet I encourage you to check those scenes out. As it stands, I think it makes enough sense. Padme has been surrounded by politicians who scheme her whole life, and this is one of her only times with a guy who doesn't believe in mincing words and just says things how they are. It actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
Anakin was a cry baby. Hard to imagine him becoming Vader
It kind of ruins the aura of "Vader" for me, watching the prequels.
Anakin was never going to be a super manly macho man if anything the prequels actually make the story of Anakin better, by showing his short comings and showing how he became the pathetic man that was Darth Vader.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt It's strange, because watching the prequels kind of enhanced his aura for me. After ROTS, I realized Vader is as ruthless as he is because he's a man with nothing left to lose, and there's hardly anything more dangerous and terrifying than that
I think of the quote when a good man goes to war. That is what vader should have been.
I like this quote, I have a vague memory it's from Dr Who - is that right?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I think so. But I think it's a common enough saying.
Anakin wasn't supposed to destroy the sith. He was balancing the force by destroying the jedi
No he was not. The force is not "balanced" after the fall of the Jedi. It's further out of balance than ever. Bringing balance to the force was when he destroyed the Sith, George Lucas has said this HIMSELF
@@officialmonarchmusic Too much light side is unbalanced
@@JohnDeereNeverDiesNo it isn’t. There cannot be “too much light”. The Jedi are described as people who serve the will of the force, which keeps the force in balance. In this way, you can think of the light side as “the force” and the dark side as “the selfish, corrupted unnatural way it can be used”. It can only be mitigated, but never eradicated completely. Think about it this way, was the galaxy depicted as a better place after the force was “balanced” to your definition? No. What is the “happy ending” we are given at the end of the saga. It is with the Sith destroyed, and a Jedi order being rebuilt. The only thing in Star Wars that supports your idea is the presumption of the Light and the Dark being opposite equivalents, which is unsupported by anything Lucas gave us
@@JohnDeereNeverDiesDid you notice how in the first six movies people rarely if ever say "Light Side of the Force"? Well, that's because the Light side of the force is just the force. When Sith manipulate the force for selfish reasons they end up causing an imbalance.
agreed!
Thanks!
Lore of How the Star Wars Prequels Ruined Darth Vader momentum 100
You're about 20 years late with this argument. Prequels have always been great. Flawed, but still great.
Are you even 20 years old?
@@sigiligus 24 actually thanks
nah man, I think you're just bitter that things didn't turn out the way you thought they should
Just sharing my opinion
Yep, well said. Anakin's character is the worst part of Revenge of the Sith which is an awesome movie. It just doesnt land when he is killing children. Dooku is more the character that you are asking for to be the main character. One thing is Vader really feels like he has lost all his passion and yet anakin must still have a lot of passion, being still young when he gets the suit
After learning his wife died and he is to blame for it, he's just a broken man, filled with rage and self hatred. At the same time he has nowhere to go, nobody to turn to, except the man that talked him into this. So all he can do is take this place as a intimidating, seemingly emotionless enforcer and if need be killer for the emperor. With his family and everyone of his friends gone, where would you expect any passion to be left in him? What should he be passionate about? For sure not power for the sake of power itself - he just isn't that kind of guy - palps is the one to represent exactly that.
Thanks man. I agree, I actually do enjoy Revenge of the Sith despite them dropping the ball with Anakin. Dooku was a great character and it's a shame he ended up wasted in the trilogy.
Interesting point about Anakin getting the suit when he's young, I'd never thought about it before but you're right if you asked me before watching the prequels I'd assume he became Vader as an older man/later into his Jedi career.
The second act of Revenge of the Sith is pretty bad Kashyyyk and Grievous have nothing to do with the overall narrative, Anakin's turn to evil feels too rushed, and it still has Lucas's awful dialogue.
You wanna know what I hear?
"WAAA! It's not what I wanted so it sucks! WAAAA! How dared George Lucas make the movies he wanted to make, instead of making the movies I WANTED HIM to make WAAAAAA!!!!"
Just like every single other prequel-basher ever, none of your points are objectively valid criticisms. Instead they're the whinings of an entitled fanboy, who think he knows Star Wars and it's characters better than the guy who created Star Wars and it's characters.
Just sharing my opinion
It baffles me that people refuse to see just how bad the Prequels are. They completely fail *as* *films* and are unwatchable.
Bro learn what opinions are lil bro like r U dumb?
Yeah because destroying hundreds of interesting planets, settings and lore to appease a bunch of OT fanboy casuals is a good idea. KOTR >>>>>> OT.
@@MrRobot2027-wd9iw "Fanboy casuals?" Dude, it's an opinion.
I'm cringing for you.
@@ChristianMartin-s2z The Movies consist of 1% of Star Wars material and haven't read the EU aka everything that was canon until 2008.
@@ChristianMartin-s2z I grew up with the prequels and still like some of the set pieces today.
Lore of How the Star Wars Prequels Ruined Darth Vader momentum 100