Anime Subs Should NOT Be Literal | The Case For Localization
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2019
- Just an actual professional anime and game translator, weighing in on the literal vs localized subs debate. I used to love literal translations, so I understand where the pro-literal side is coming from, but now, I practice and am an advocate of localized anime subs. I don’t know the exact numbers, but the anime fan community today seems a lot more open to localized subs than they were back when I first became an otaku in the late-90’s. But there are still many otaku out there who think literal translations are the way to go and I hope to enlighten a few with this video-essay.
Footage:
“Cousins” (great compilation that shows every time Haruka and Michiru were incorrectly referred to as “cousins” in the dub): • "Cousins"
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Red Bard sent me here. Subbed.
Red Bard is cool.
Ha! Same
Subbed not dubbed lol
I dubbed, personally... :^)
I'm not opposed to localisation per se. But I really dislike it when it's not necessary. For example when in Japanese the character literally says 'You saved me.' and the subtitles say "You saved my bacon".
So, one of the things I have enjoyed about anime is it's feeling of foreignness. I'm not sure how to put this exactly, but it feels like being able to pull the curtain back a bit on a culture you aren't a part of, but be able to learn a bit about from it's media. So for that reason, I like less localization minus the obvious needs that one language does not directly translate to the other,and have enjoyed the blocks of text from fan subbers. Obviously, anime is not the perfect way to learn about Japan, but I feel like over the years I did learn a lot more then I ever would have from translation notes. I actually more enjoy when a pun is explained rather then changed because I like seeing how that pun works in another language. I like the sans and chans and samas because while I don't speak fluent Japanese, since I do understand the meanings of those it gives me more insight into how those characters view their relationships. I don't watch anime quite the same way I would an American tv show. That said though, it's my own personal preference, and there's a big difference between localization and Anglicization. The difference between making a sentence sound better and changing a rice ball to a doughnut or changing the entire context of a story. And sometimes...even I will admit things make sense to change, especially if it's intended for a more wide audience. I remember reading an interview with Neil Gaiman who worked on the localization of Princess Mononoke, where he explained changing a scene where one character told the other the soup tasted like water. This is something that would be considered highly offensive in Japan, but not nearly as much in English, so he changed it to tasting like "piss" to get the same meaning across.
This is a really good video, but I still prefer the not-as-localized translations, as someone whose native tongue is not English.
One reason for this is that you are localizing Japanese culture into, usually, US culture. If you are not American, or haven't had much exposure to American culture, you will be faced with the challenge of matching what you are seeing (without knowing what is being said), with what you are reading, and with your own culture. A less localized approach will match the visuals with the text, allowing you to more easily compare and understand the situations. Of course, "ittekimasu" should be translated as "see you later" or something like this, as that is the literal meaning of the expression, if not of the words. Word order, sentence order, and sentence structure are very different in Japanese and in English, so text should be rearranged to flow naturally in English. But translation must also have its limits: just because Americans don't use kimono (and may never have heard of it), that is not an excuse to translate it to "wearable object":
As for honorifics, I prefer to keep them in place. To start with an extreme, I have seen many examples of the following: Imagine a character named "Yuuki Asuna". We see a friend calling her "Yuuki-senpai", but the subtitles simply have "Asuna". At this point you probably already know the name of the character, so you start wondering "why did they change her name in the subtitles?". This again goes to the point of changing Japanese culture, where calling someone by their family name or given name has meaning, into American culture, where people usually call each other by their first names, creating a disconnect between what we are hearing and what we are reading. This would be the same as seeing an American movie, where a character calls another "Mr. Anderson" and the subtitles have "Neo". You can hear the words perfectly, as names aren't translatable, so why would the subtitles do that?
Even not going to these extremes, how would you translate "Shinomiya-san"? Simply "Shinomiya"? Or "Miss Shinomiya"? Something else, dependent on context? It's always the same words, always referring to the same character, so I believe they should be always translated the same way, regardless of context. (You can probably already guess I prefer the "Shinomiya-san" option. :)) Is this too much of a Japanese culture thing, that viewers cannot understand? You are watching a Japanese show, you should expect that Japanese culture would be mentioned, and you should expect not to understand everything at first. Depending on your culture, you could be expecting some title to be attached to a name, so you can probably guess that "san" is something similar. You yourself said that the Japanese honorifics can be very subtle, so why even bother to translate something that may not even be translatable? If you know, you know. If you don't, you can probably ignore it 99% of the time. As translator, this would only be a problem when a character uses the wrong honorific/no honorific and someone else points that out.
A real example that confused me at the time: inn Garden of Words, the following exchange happens: "It's not Yukino-san, it's Yukino-sensei", but the subtitles read "It's not Yukino, it's Miss Yukino". This confused me until I went into my American culture brain drawer and realized "American students address their teachers as Mr./Miss Smith" and finally understood that in the scene Yukino was trying to distance herself from her student. (As a side note, in my country we address teachers with the title "teacher" and never "Mister" or "Miss", which is what originated the confusion.)
As for "okaa-san", "otou-san", etc., those terms should be translated, as the word "mother" and "father" exist. You may lose some context if someone calls their mother as "okaa-san", or "okaa-sama", or "okaa-chan", but, as before, in 99% of the cases, it doesn't matter.
All of this is valid only for subtitled shows. For dubbed shows, you can change anything and everything, as the disconnect between what you are hearing and reading doesn't exist. I'll leave the discussion to whether dubbed shows should be localized to someone else.
As a final note, I'll just disclose that I never watched a show that was dubbed in English, and in my country we usually never dub anything that is not meant for young children. Once they are expected to be reading fluently, it's subtitles for everything, so I may be more used to reading subtitles and how they relate to what is being shown on screen that other people from dub heavy cultures.
Ideally, the show would be localized into your native language!
I WAS going to say that I disagree with leaving in the honorifics, but I think I see your point. Specifically because they CAN work in subtitles. But yeah, I definitely don't want honorifics in dubbed shows. For example, here in Latin America, Crunchyroll also dubbed Kobayashi's Dragon Maid into Spanish, but left in EVERY SINGLE HONORIFIC. That took me way out of the experience and I simply couldn't fully enjoy the show. I just continued watching it subbed, because at that point it was less "disorienting" for me.
When I was 13 I discovered anime for the first time. English is not my native language and at that time I had a lot of difficulty to read the subtitles. Especially when I watched Full Metal alchemist with its' science and difficult plot. I often had to pause the video every minute to look up a word in a dictionairy. Even then it still was difficult to comprehend and I sometimes had a headache when I had watched an episode or two.
I always thought it was because my English was lacking but now I think he literal translations were also partially at fault! that scene about Sailor moon moaning about herself in comparison to Sailor V was so clunky! No wonder I had difficulty!
I am not a fan of literal translations because there are clunky and sometimes a bit annoying to watch. I don't like localised versions either because they ALWAYS cather towards North America. I don't understand references to Walmart or Appelbees ! I have no idea what it is...
A common middle ground would be good.
I'm generally discouraged in my localizations from referencing anything specific like Walmart, or from using very current slang or meme - speak. Ideally, there would be localizations in all languages (not just english.)
Why didn't you watch them subbed in your language?
@@anthropomorphicpeanut6160 there weren't any... I speak Dutch as a native language with about 20 million native speakers and the early days of 2008 there was nothing! Later there were Dutch fansubs but they were translated from English fansubs and a complete mess...
Later on , if I couldn't find something with English subtitles, I would watch it with German subtitles or watch the German dub.
Nowadays I also watch anime in French. Yet there is next to zero available in Dutch... Thanks to Netflix there has been some anime with good Dutch subtitles in the last few years so hopefully more becomes availabe in Dutch or in the Netherlands.
@@ywee3980 ohh I see. I never watched anime until 2015 or so and it was way more accessible
I'm sure someone else has said this about the choice of Serena being a clever choice for name, but it's not just close to Serenity, but also Selene, a Greek moon goddess :)
I really liked this delve into translation. I'm still learning where to draw the line between literal and localised. I would love that video about translating puns, as it's quite challenging for me. Also, your pigtails are cute.
I have to give credit to ComedySportz for teaching me how to do puns. We have to pump them out on the spot based off audience suggestions and after a few years it becomes second nature.
I always crack up at “They’re girls and cousins too!!!”
Like, they really couldn’t have just said it once? They really had to shoehorn it in that hard? Lol people in the comments or videos tend to say they watched it dubbed as a kid and their parents STILL didn’t want them watching after seeing those scenes (which is fair. Lol if you think your kid is watching some weird taboo relationship, at least in western standards, you probably wouldn’t be happy).
0:07 - 0:23 Me trying to speak Japanese
A lot of times when I’m reading a REALLY direct translation I just kinda mix it up in my head and try to make it sound like a natural English sentence, but sometimes there will be that ONE sentence that is so convoluted in translation that I can’t even understand it lololol I’ve seen a character scream “WHAT BECAUSE OR NOT” before 😹😹😹
I'd much rather have the "language and culture lessons" and translator's notes, but I understand the "localize more, not less" argument here and it makes a lot of sense, especially with what you have to say about character voice and how people actually talk. More localized stuff can be more entertaining, and it's definitely more welcoming to newcomers. I see why people and publishers have moved towards that. Still too bad that we don't have a lot of new or pro releases in the style that leaves words untranslated and concepts unchanged (like the example of taking your shoes off in the house) with notes explaining the meaning and context, but I know I'm just being stubborn and old for wanting that back when the alternative we have is obviously better.
It just seems like literal VS localized is the new sub VS dub, with proponents of each claiming that the other is a poorly-translated cringefest that has no place in the modern world.
It really is the new sub vs dub. I used to be vehemently anti-dub back in the day...and now I like dubs.😅
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon your IQ was dropping year by year then. Imagine thinking that dub can be EVER a good alternative to consume ANY foreign media
I saw the title and instantly clicked :D I really appreciate more localised subs especially when puns are well translated :D
Just got to the end :) Omg a pun video would be marvelous
love your videos 💗💗 and the shoutout at the end totally surprised me and I may have fangirled a bit 😂 happy to be a new patron! - Amanda F.
Well, I think at least some of it is because... Americans usually don't have in general experience in media from both the original and translated versions
As someone that English is a second language to them, I saw both literal, localized and hyperlocalized translations of English media and... Literal translations can be just as bad as hyperlocalized ones.
It sounds awkward and the original context can be completely lost for the sake of stay as close to the original language as you can.
Different languages don't just have different words and grammar, but also different cultural context and different styles of expression which don't always match the different language.
Thanks for making this video and sharing your insights! I generally lean towards localization being better, but even I have to admit that as a longtime SM fan, I'm attached to the literal translation. Like you said, an overly literal translation can belie the actual tone of the scene, and it may just be that the localized version of her speech draws attention to how, sort of silly and fun the concept of Sailor Moon is. Which can be a tough pill to swallow for people like me who hold the series up in such serious reverence. We should probably chill out ^_^;
First of all, I know how difficult it is to translate something properly. Sure, of course it shouldn't be too literal and should sound natural. You also don't neccessarily need suffixes. But I still think you should keep it as literal as possible! I do speak a little Japanese and it really bothers me when I read subs and then I'm like "but they didn't say that!". Of course I don't want it as literal as you did it in these examples, but "In the name of the moon, your tides have turned"? Really? I don't want to offend you, but that's way too far off for my taste. Why isn't the well-known "in the name of the moon I'll punish you" good enough?
It's just a personal preference, but when I'm watching anime with subs, I want it to be as close as possible (of course not as close as your negative examples) - otherwise I'd be watching the dub!
I don't think I would actually translate it that way - I'm just showing how far a translator could tweak something like a catchphrase that's supposed to sound zippy and/or campy. By now, "in the name of the moon, I'll punish you" is SO ingrained in the fandom that ANY deviation would probably be bashed.......which is a shame because I really don't think it's a good translation. Since we're all so used to it by now and it's basically a meme, it doesn't sound weird to us, but to a first-timer, it sounds very odd.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon Okay, I see. Yeah, it probably sounds a little weird to first-timers. But I still would stick to it, even if it wasn't that ingrained. I mean, people are aware that characters in movies don't talk like normal people. But it's just my preference.^^
@@sailorcat i think it's less about characters speaking like ordinary people, and more about them speaking like a human being. the tides thing was with how the moon affects the tides, which is an idea i think would fit pretty well in this kind of catchphrase, if a little bit reworded
@@toastyyyyyyyy I'd argue it's unnecessary fanfiction...if it ain't broke don't fix it.
03:50 " Wanna breed " ?
Redbard sent me over! 💖💕✨ Subbed, love it 😍 I enjoy the language and anime!! 💖
I feel like your first example with "Suki desi, Tsukiatte kudasai." made it hard to trust the video we agree that you don't want things 100% literal or to be as localized as the lord of the rings movie. But I think that it's better for the translation to lean closer to what you consider too literal than you do.
You say, "I like you, let's go out." is too literal but I think that this isn't a good spot to inject a character's "personality" in. Maybe someone thinks it would suit the character more to say "how about we go out" but I'd say that leaving out that he specifically says "I like you" is a bad step.
Anyway, I'm not super bothered by a change like that, it only gets really annoying when translators always assume you just don't know how hard translation is and jump all the way to "localization is an art and being totally literal is stupid." because someone thought they went for something too localized.
great video, that was very interesting! i´ve been watching media in three languages for years now and always appreciate a good localization when it comes to jokes and translation that conveys the original meaning instead of clinging to being literal (nowadays i rewatch some things i originally watched dubbed that´s how i got my appreciation for that) but i think when it comes to names of food or the example with the shoes indoors that's totally fine and even kids understand that the thing they are watching is from a different place so some things are different
as an example where i live highschool works completely differently and lots of things don´t have equivalents but it´s clear that the system is different and after a few shows with this setting i got that, just like that it´s standard to get a drivers license at 16 and that shoes are worn indoors even when lounging on one's bed, even if tho, that makes no sense to me i still understand it in the context of the show and did so as a kid
same goes with thanksgiving, i got enough understanding of it from the shows i watched to enjoy thanksgiving episodes or all the types of culinary differences that were odd to me still made sense in the show so translations like in pokemon where onigiri became a doughnut, i just don´t believe them to be necessary
i actually always enjoyed things like that cos either i didn´t notice in the context of the show or it made me curious like " wow these pancakes look so different in cartoons i wonder how to make them and what they taste like with maple sirup" so i tried it and it was cool
what i want is not for anime to only be consumable if you´re willing to take some infotainment aspect that would have to be there for minimally localized versions but i also know that kids are clever and get context and don´t stop watching a show just cos they don´t know what the dish someone is eating is
wow that was a wall of text but hopefully, it came across with nuance, i definitely love that i was able to watch so many cartoons and shows/movies as a kid from lots of places dubbed and am grateful for the translation work but i also think it´s good for kids to see relatable characters and it´s not bad when they sometimes don´t fully understand smaller things around them, liking and having sympathy for characters whose lives are culturally different is a good thing
“Localization is bad!”
Panty and Stocking with GarterBelt: *Am I a joke to you*
I've always appreciated dubs and localizations of different anime and games. I don't speak Japanese, but I do speak both English and Spanish fluently and I've had trouble translating more than a few jokes from Spanish to English. I guess this is why I've never really had the opinion that anime should be translated literally
I loved this video!!! After studying Japanese studies I appreciate good localization so much. It really is a craft and difficult to master. Also there are ways to express yourself in Japanese that also sometimes make me still cringe as someone being socialized in the west, even though I know it’s just cultural.
I guess back in the day when my Japanese wasn’t as good I was happy when I understood *something* and that’s why I preferred a more literal translation 😌
Now it’s localization ALWAYS! And I loved that you pointed out that anime is for everyone and should be understood by everyone ❤️
this is a great chanel, I am glad Red Bard sent me here, now if you excuse me I have a youtube chanel to binge
I love your translation lesson videos!! It would be great to see translation lessons for non anime as well, such as business and/or legal translations
I don't do those translations (neither am I interested in them) so I'd be really bad at it 😅
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon thanks for your reply
Translating it literal is like translating it on-point, there's nothing wrong with minor changes as long the original message is there.
However, some localizers change the script and change their entire personality completely. That is the BS part, they completely bastardized it to fit their worldviews. People are aware of it now, this is why people like and tend to prefer fan translation over your pro-translator BS.
Wasn't sure where you were going to go with that apple pun, but it was inspired! I will be sure to watch your pun video!
P.S.: Red Bard sent me. Fellow JP-EN translator who followed the same path from preferring 'purism' as a Japanese learning device to appreciating the great efforts translators make to create an enjoyable experience for English-speaking viewers here!
I still haven't made the pun video 😅
I had a wonderful revelation recently where I realized that I had been watching anime for so long I could safely turn off the subtitles and not only understand what was being said but why it was said in the way it was. Isn't that the true end goal anyway?(And I wouldn't take a single experience of dub or sub away from that journey)
Wow🤩 And here I was wondering what your "get to stay at home job" was. Now I just like you even more. Just , wow.
Not Japanese, but, just finished a game called 'Angelo and Deemon : One Hell of an Adventure' Not uploaded publicly to channel yet, but it's a good example of many of the things you mention here; many times, dozens, in fact, there were lines that were obviously an attempt at a joke, but the dialog was utter, non-sequitor randomness. It is not bad writing; the jokes that work are actually great (Well, most of them), but what I believe to be google translate style direct, word for word translation really hurt the overall experience.
About Sailor Moon's name: I think Bunny is just as good as a translation as Serena. Yes, you don't get the joke with the rabbit on the moon. But you still get the rabbit aspect that is lost with the name Serena. I mean, Usagi's hairstyle is supposed to look like a rabbit and she has a lot of stuff with rabbit prints. We had the name Bunny in the German dub and it didn't seem as weird here, cause it's a foreign word.
What I don't like about the old English dub (one of many aspects) is that Serenity and Usagi are both named Serena. But Serenity is her past life and she's a little different than Usagi! And don't let me start with all the other name changes...
In the end, of course I prefer the name Usagi. I don't care that you use a pun there, translating names (of main characters) is a no go for me! I understand why they did it back then, but nowadays you don't do that. Most other names in the German Sailor Moon dub were the original ones and everyone was fine with it.^^
Extremely we thought out and very entertaining. I get very frustrated with manga leaving words in Japanese bringing me out of the story to flip to the notes at the back to figure out what they mean.
Just a small note: Viz never translated Sailor Moon, it was Tokyopop that gave Usagi the name "Bunny".
Viz does the modern anime translations
@@bunnymoonch.8509 True, but she specifically said Viz gave Usagi the name Bunny in the manga which they didn't. Tokyopop did.
I agree with your perspective for most people but I am a Japanese learner so I will take all the literal translations I can get. Also I'm watching Korean and Chinese dramas now and I LOVE the crammed in paragraphs of context even though I'm not trying to learn Korean or Chinese at the moment.
Even if you're not learning the language, most people reading the subtitles are learning about a different culture at the same time as they are enjoying the show. It would be sad to lose that by localizing too heavily.
"localizing" doesn't always mean replacing onigiri with sandwiches ...
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon i know, i was saying I enjoy the screen crammed paragraphs of translator notes is all
I want anime to be a Japanese lesson because learning Japanese can be hard.
I mean I know a direct 1:1 translation would not make sense due to grammar and sentence structure differences what bothers me about localization is when stuff gets censored for seemingly no other reason other then the localizer did not like the artist's intention there are really good localization's out there Ace Attorney is one and I heard Yakuza is another it is just the admittedly small but still exists censored localization THAT PISS ME OFF
I'm a little disappointed you didn't do the same gasp for all his localization confessions.
"Netflix and chill?"
*gasp*
Worked in game localisation for more than a decade. I completely relate. You know what would really be interesting? How about a video (one day, no rush) about how to deal/educate your clients when they start from an “odd” understanding of what you covered in this and other video! Hope you can use the idea ^^ thanks for all the great content!
All of my recent clients (except Crunchyroll) favor heavy localization, so that actually isn't an issue. I did get into mannnnny discussions back when I translated for fansubs, though.😅
Ok so I never knew people got so mad about translations because I’m not that deeply in anime fandom. I have at times found more localized subtitles hard to follow because it’s totally different from what the voice is saying, which I also partially understand so they pull my language circuits in two different directions and I can’t understand either. But I always knew that’s not a valid complaint because most people either don’t know Japanese at all or probably don’t need subtitles. Also I’ve often found some subtitle translations to be quite ingenious in how they capture the original intent without being literally the same or even similar.
I couldn’t care less about the honorifics btw, I mean you can still hear them say it even if you don’t understand much of any Japanese so they really don’t need to be in the subtitle in the first place.
After watching this video i understand what i really want is:
Techniques in Romanji, i will take Mizu no Kokyou and Kage bushin no jutsu above Water Breathing and Jutsu clone shadows anytime, because sounds cooler, not gonna lie.
Was a good video.
Yeah, I often wish I could translate the techniques/attacks that are in English into Japanese so they'll sound cooler (as iconic as "STARRRRR GENTLE UUUUTERUS!" is 😅)
Some hard truths... But very educational haha
8:01 Which episode is this scene from?
I like the that compromise I often see, where in a show subs are more literal and dubs are a lot more localized. Aggretsuko is my favorite example of this. Watching it with English subs and English dub on at the same time is such a mind-trip
can you please do a learn japanese through music with dan dan kokoro hikareteku(dragon ball gt opening)
I'll probably take requests and do another poll in a couple months.
I do think I understand more especially when Joey the anime man has a friend that will watch something on Netflix and the subs accuracy so now I'll watch little witch academia subbed same with anohana but with sailor moon i like the second release dub because it has her original name and you see her brother not get skipped through because all censored shit is gone
I had no idea about all of this, but I've dabbled in anime and I love the Japanese language...so I def subbed! Xxoo
Your Sailor moon example is exactly why the subs need to be more literal, the localised version butchered her speech for no real reason, "your tides have turned' is literally just making stuff up and adds nothing. The subs should adjust for speech pattern and natural sound that is it. Since I learned some Japanese I noticed the sheer amount of nonsense localisers insert into the subs that are unnecessary.
literal translations inherently dont sound natural
amen to this
As someone who's native lanuage is not english, and was learning it at school for almost 10 years, I like translations not to be "too localazied", because most of the times they localize it to sound american. And not every english speaking person is american! I cannot understand american puns and gimmicks because I am not american! UGHH!! Sorry that is whole another issue. Anyway. And to add to the mix, I can some what understand japanese. For example when some fansubs are really terrible, I can point it out because I understand the dialogue without the horrible subs. Kinda same reason I don't like most dubs, the name changes and all that jazz are unappealing to me And I have been used to read subtitles same time as I watch because here in my country TV shows with forein lanuage almost never get dubbed here, always just translated subtitles, (exeption is childrens shows but some of them also never gets dubbed but gets subtitles). And yes, not litteral because it would be really silly, and make no sense, but semi localized? Yea sure why not.
Example The sailor moon one, if the subbing would be left to me I would sub it somewhat like this: "of Love and Justice, Sailor uniformed pretty Soldier! Sailor Moon! In the name of the moon, I'll punish you!
Yes might not be perfect, but not too literal to my taste.
Also I am sucker for authors translation notes that sometimes pop up when there is pun or something else. It is like a really tiny "lanuage and culture lesson" in a tiny dose. And sometimes the honorifics are nice when left in. Yes most people don't understand them. But I some what do since I have educated myself little bit of them, like diffrence between, -chan, -kun, -san, -sama (won't go to detail here) kinda also same when some characters in anime refer to each other using last names, not first names, I like when subs have the actual last name, not the fist name.
Whenever a non-native English speaker brings up this point, I always respond with: well, of course you should have it localized in your native language! That really would be ideal.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon yeah that might work lot better. But it is easier just to watch anime with eng subs rather than try even find ones with native lanuage here bc there are no such thing :D But on tv is little diffrent story. Mostly with western tv:shows because here it is very rare to see anything from east shown on television except movies on rare occasion. ( some fev popular kids anime gets dubbed here like: pokemon, yokai watch for example) Small country broblems I gess :D
Localized is fine, but one of my favorite examples that lacks a "good" local translation to English is from "your name" when the girl is in the boys body and uses feminine language with the friends (male) and eventually finds the masculine "ore"? (or something) and the friends nod in approval. English dub said "a girl like me.... i mean a gal... i mean a guy?" and then friends nod. It's way too non-sensical for the scene. Like why would the guys be suspicious that their friend says "a girl" (before they mention anything else) and why would they not be SUPER confused why they said "a girl... gal... boy like me" and just move on once they get it right?
In a "non-localized" fail, BNHA just released OVA that said something like "We need Denki for the lights" or something. It literally made no sense to not translate that word into electricity or power etc. Felt like a failure in editing or someone thought it was a character (since the D was capitalized each time) and showed a possible lack of knowledge of the source material.
Similarly there are times when the company (don't know who actually makes this type of decision) will replace cultural things like rice crackers with pancakes (in words only) etc. That's pretty non-sensical even though they're both food. I understand when they replace cigarettes with lollipops or cover up SOME blood or turn mr. popo blue so it's not a black minstrel character.... but there are other times where it's non-sensical to replace Japanese customs, food, or ideas just so you can call it a "kids show" for America.
On the flip side I loved how Pixar adapted a scene where the little girl in "inside out" didn't like a veggie and Japanese tend to like broccoli or not have much issues with it so they replaced it with peppers or something kids in Japan are less likely to enjoy. Both are food, both are appropriate for the scene, and neither option is a major "chance to teach culture" on any meaningful level. The idea was still to illicit "oh I feel you there" with the kids, and in theory it worked for both instances.
So overall I guess it just depends on the intention behind it (stupid Americans won't get this vs this scene makes better sense if we translate it this way) and execution (does it make sense for the scene / characters).
Denki is a character, though. It's Kaminari's first name.
@@SecretIdentityStudio Thanks for clarifying. My mistake then for not knowing his name was actually Denki haha. I just normally hear Kaminari and know denki means electricity / power so in context of the scene thought there was just a translation mistake.
Wow . Thank you
9:40 my new screensaver
Our version of 10:06 : "Sailor Uranus! Why are you and Sailor Neptune fighting Kaolinite with out Tuxedo Mask's help?
DiC is not pronounced DiC but the correct version might not be allowed on youtube lol. Also The DiC dub has ONE REALLY legit lovely localization.
When Naru asks Nephrite "If his Evil Organization gives him free Sundays". This is a bit confusing for a foreigner, why not Saturday too? Because in Japan your only day off is sunday. So DiC just goes "Do you have any holidays in that evil society of yours?" which is just amazing.
As an expert amateur in Japanese I've come to realise my biggest gripe with literally translated vs localised is a pretty big difference in tone. The way English is worded is just so to make sentences sound just so, and a lot of literal translations come across as a bit too formal for my taste (in grammar, obviously this is Japanese media lol)
For analysing localisations themselves, I like to think about the setting and context a lot. Some of them might be obvious (my favourite localisation Ever has to be Hotel Dusk for the DS - but that was already imitating a subject very familiar to English-speakers) but it could be something like WataMote, where it very clearly takes place in Japan (several elements to the deeper meaning aren't going to connect to outside viewers) so a lot of really creative phrasing of the main character's thoughts go a long way.
Actually localising/translating games is wayyyyy different than anime but in general i mean www
It's not on purpose - I've caught myself translating literally in a weird semantic satiation (?) way lol. Definitely think a lot about what you're going for before you start. This probably doesn't make any sense just play hotel dusk
PS: BIGGEST RULE IS CASE BY BASE BASIS OMG anime fans are some of the most black-and-white thinking people Ive EVER seen
i would just use the adjective and the nouns there and plce the translation "youre are favorable, see me after school" to satify the feeling
Nice, now I agree
If it were a literal translation everyone would sound like Yoda. I don't think most people would be into that. Some may be though. I think a mix of localization and literal translation is best. Nither extreme works well IMO. It also depends on context. I think there is no hard ad fast rule that will always work for everything.
Also, I've noticed girls who are native English speakers tend to raise their voices when they speak Japanese. I hope this doesn't come off as rude I promise I am not trying to be but It's something I've noticed and I don't really understand why. Is there a cultural reason or is it something else?
Part of it is vowel coloring - Japanese generally uses brighter vowels and vowels just sound higher-pitched when they're bright.
Part of it is vowel coloring - Japanese generally uses brighter vowels and vowels just sound higher-pitched when they're bright.
Honorifics should be left intact for the simple fact that hearing common words and not seeing them is very jarring. I personally have an issue when a characters name appears before it's said or when theres a pause and the "punchline" is audibly intense, but the subs are just normal words to finish out the sentence. That kind of thing doesn't have to happen and is an easy fix. This also goes for simple stupid decisions like translating a spoken "sankyu" as thanks instead of thank you. The most atrocious is when they write out their name when they are referred to by a title.
Just imagine that starwars was an anime for a moment. and every time a character SAYS "The Emperor" it READS as Palpatine or Sidious. that would be incredibly jarring to see, no?
Why does it have to be different here? Just call characters what they are being called on screen.
so by your logic if an english work is translated to japanese they should keep prefixes like mr and ms and mrs
@@animegamingdude Of course.
@@animegamingdude and in most cases it is like this.
Exactly. There's no equivalents in English or any western language. Replacing honorifics or skipping them is the first indicator that general translation will be just bad. And it's true for like 95% cases. If the translator is so dumb to assume that honorifics are not important, then the rest of his translation will be probably even worse and altered.
So when you're searching for translation, this si one of the best indicators what to expect.
@@sirmiluch6856 crazy, I wrote that comment over 3 years ago, and I have only grown to hate modern subbing more, and more...
I really need to learn this stupid language already.
lol
i dont get the improved apple pudding pun :(
“Golden and delicious”
golden delicious is a type of apple.
Apple pudding are usually golden brown. And are (to some) delicious.
I don't speak Japanese but let me take a crack at the pun at 12:31. "I love apple pudding! Pudding it on the table makes any meal better!"
Did I turn it into a dad joke? Yes. Do I have any regrets? Never.
Rabbitmoon is my favorite anime character
Aight! made up my mind. As much as I'm learning Japanese right now, watching anime with localized subs makes the anime more enjoyable and understandable? sankyuu
I miss the fansubs where they had a localised pun and three paragraphs of notes about what the pun was in the Japanese and why they localised it how they did. The worst is when, say, it's a character's name and they just write it out so you lose *everything* until you look it up for someone else to explain the pun.
Looking at you, Crunchyroll's BnHA!
Which is NOT to say I'm anti-localisation! The Ace Attorney games are still one of my favourite franchises! I think a lot of the goofiness that comes from the cultural clash (and even the censorship, sometimes!) is part of the charm - Ace Attorney's weird Californippon setting, YuGiOh's Shadow Realm and DBZ's Home for Infinite Losers made them more unique and fun!
12:58 Yeah, word-specific jokes do translate weird. There's a Lupin special where Zenigata is at a New York diner, attempting to order a hamburger, and the whole joke is that the waitress cannot understand the many ways he's butchering the word "hamburger". His partner George walks up and orders a "Burger", which the waitress understands. In the dub they couldn't make this joke work, so they just kinda sidestepped it with George ordering a "Cheeseburger" making it seem like the kerfuffle is caused by them not selling plain hamburgers. Which...makes zero sense.
"You are so luminous" was pretty good lol
0:45 her pingtails im shocked she said older
The only time localized subtitles bother me is when they over-complicate a sentence or phrase way more than the Japanese counterpart. Especially when there are much more obvious and simpler ways of expressing the same thing.
informative, concise, and enjoyable - thank you!
Damn i feel so grown up
Honorifics should stay.
Your thumbnail example is terrible and I'd take the "literal" (which is not literal, just faithful) TL any day over your alternative.
Stay away from anime.
Write your own stories.
Thats just true
I used games and anime and such to learn English.
Localization > literal translation.
How would you localize ひゅるり ひゅるり.... ? Translators mostly don't even translate it..
Depends on the context. Is a character saying it? is it text in the background? Is it isolated on its own, or part of a sentence?
Todays localizer on Crunchyroll etc should see this.... are you already cancelled? Just curious.
Just so you know: i am fully on board with this definition of localization and think it is a good way of subbing/dubbing.
Found this out of curiosity because this topic seems to be something big atm and i never thought about it till now...
Properly localised translations make for a better product. Buuuuut... personally, I do prefer fairly literal translations.
Even when I was new to anime, I actually loved the somewhat awkward translations, honorifics, and yes, translator notes. Now, I will freely admit that those were pretty terrible translations, but if I had a choice... I think I still would have picked them. There is just something about it.
I think it was also a large part of what actually motivated me to learn Japanese. Many many years later, I'm still not particularly good at it, but I can watch the odd show without subs. Those where I do need subs, I definitely appreciate if they are written in a way that makes it easier to follow along.
But again, this is for me personally. For the general public, properly localised subs are better. And dubs should always be localised.
(By people who understand Japanese and respect the original work, that is...)
"Properly localised translations make for a better product."
Better to who?
Not for the fans obviously, so?
I live in Poland. Our Naruto fandom rioted over the Akatsuki being translated into "Dawn" and not "Red Moon" because the fan-translations called it the latter. Just this year they demanded that JoJo's translation leave in the sound-effects in raw kana because 'there are memes about them so they are important!'. Yes, literally.
Our Polish title of a manga is "Blue Exorcist - Ao no Futsumashi" - because license required the universal english brand and the Polish publisher got scared by screaming fans who 'wouldn't recogonize the manga with translated title'. Again - yes, literally.
I think this proves that the 'keep the nakamas fighting for their kizunas in the wide and open umi~!' is, in most cases, just pure fetish of getting something foreign~ and exotic~ that you flaunt about and brag how much you know the language - just because they left in a few words here and there. That and bad fan-translations done feom Japanese to Chinese to spanish to english to polish (it's better now, but yeard back it was like playing phone tag).
😂 I totally used to think akatsuki meant "red moon" too.
@@PrettyTranslatorSarahMoon Oh, I did too. I think we were all duped by the clouds design tbh.
I found the series on a Jetix dub - it's... a bit better than the 4Kids one, but only in the fact that we got all the lollies and sudden smoke, but no Nerf-bullets instead of spikes like poor One Piece.
-but I would never think I know better than a paid translator. And sooo many people I see seriously think they know better than paid professinals!
Then we get The Promised Neverland where translator used scans instead of google translate for a word they didn't get and messed it up. Or Demon Slayer where translator corrected the manga text and took out a polot-twist because he knows better than the author.
Those people get so much validation they just go off the rails - my quote was half-hoking. Some wanted 'nakama' to stay in romaji cause its 'too important'. xD
I think Brie is a better name for the Usagi with the goofy voice
I am all in for good translation, after all a good translation doesn't feel like one. And most of the pros do an amazing job, but there are these few bad apples that cannot stop injecting politics in their work and suddenly because of a couple of narcissists that try so hard to impose their opinions the whole guild got a bad rep.
It's pronounced "Deek" not "Dee Eye see..." But otherwise decent video
The modern hate of lacalization is not they "Change the Japanese from a literal translation to a more understandable" one...the problem is localizers are shoe horning in their own personal political views, injecting memes and making up dialogue that wasn't in the original creating their own fanfiction as if it's their job to do so.
Localizers: "haha let's add this funny meme that is relevant today!"
Someone watching later: "what does that mean?"
No, it's both.
If I watch Japanese media, I want to watch Japanese media, not burger media.
@@sirmiluch6856 Real lol, this is just BS to put their agenda.
The disasters of localisation has been apparent since "jelly filled donuts" and things haven't gotten better.
localization is not inherently bad jelly filled donuts is just an example of poor localization from a dubbing company whose goal wasnt even to make their dubs accurate to the original japanese
You had me until the mac-n-cheese...
For me, the DiC dub is the only way to go with Sailor Moon. Yeah I grew up with it so I'm biased, but back then those highly censored/overly-localized dubs felt like their own thing. They weren't just simple English dubs, they were unique and fun. Plus you could always tell the VAs were having fun with their roles.
Just like with Pokemon, Yugioh, and Shaman King with 4kids.
This is so interesting. I didn't know literal vs localization was a thing until recently. Whenever I saw a literal translation I just thought fan subbers English was bad, not that fans wanted to actually know what the literal meaning was. I also watched Reina Scully's video about this and she said translation was more like an art, which I thought was a cool analogy. After watching this video it seems that fans who are hardcore pro literal don't understand what a translators job actually is. As you said, it's not to teach Japanese.
I see where you are coming from and rather than saying you favor localization over translation it sounds more like you are taking a good balance in the middle of them. Those of us whom dislike localization in my experience do so due to the increased commonality of inserted narratives and political points as pointed out in Otaku Dai-kuns video on the subject.
I'd prefer literal than what's happening now, where the inject their politics into their translation
Okay, you're seriously coming across bad when you open up with "I'm not trying to mock you, I'm trying to EDUCATE you!" There's nothing that sounds more condescending than someone who says "I'm not trying to call you stupid, I just want to spend a quarter of an hour teaching you how ignorant and wrong you are!" All the more so when you equate Google Translate level text that doesn't even bother to be grammatically correct with "literal translation" or imply that most of the people who complain about it don't even understand Japanese.
My big problem with people trying to "showcase the personality and emotions of the character" with their alterations and additions is that frankly, they're far too frequently WRONG. Like, half the time they're not elaborating on what the character's actually thinking or intending, they're adjusting it to fit their own suppositions, assumptions and projections about said character, and once a little time passes and a few more chapters/episodes/seasons come out, it can easily simply not fit at all. Sometimes vagueness was meant to be there, and it kind of wrecks things to make things "clear", especially if you didn't read ahead or wait long enough to be sure that your clarification is actually correct. And of course that's completely glossing over modern translators' fondness for either shoving in agendas that weren't present or in any way related to the intent of the original content, or inserting references, slang and other things that seriously date the content.
As for honorifics, I'd have to disagree with your attitude severely. If it's intended for a young or mainstream audience, then yes effort should be made to avoid such things that might be hard to understand or distract the reader from the flow. But if it's aimed at someone who's accustomed to those aspects of the language and have knowledge of its meaning, it adds meaning. It's not complaining about homemade Mac & Cheese versus store-bought, it's wanting a little spice that was in the original recipe to give more kick.
but where are the lies most people who whine about this dont know japanese and google translate provides very literal translations on par with what ive seen in a couple of awful fansubs
Holy shit if we had to translate the honorifics it would be like adding "Jesus the God to my life" to the sentence everytime you mentioned Jesus.
Jesus ,the God to my life, fucking Christ ,the God to my life.
Why tf would anyone translate honorifics by leaving them as is, as if they were literally part of the name... it makes no sense no matter how much weeboos want it to.
Because this is how it should be. Only complete clowns don't understand why leaving honorifics as they are is the only sane option.
i personally would prefer if stuff like ittekimasu is not translated. stuff like that is used often and a lot of people probably understand it anyway. not in dubs though. also translater notes are welcome. cluttering the screen is a non issue.
Imho you are missing the point. You paint this picture of those die-hard otakus who just argue for the sake of arguing. I'm not about to go to war with translators because i benefit from their work. but when i notice mistranslations i feel dirty and i cringe and ask myself how much of the rest is "true to the spirit". The examples you brought up for localizing are the good cases what about the bad ones?If you really wanted to prove the people wrong dont do example translations yourself but take some random anime and do a sidebyside with literal translations. there is good and bad translations.
8:47 yep i am offended by that. i do not really speak japanese but i understand enough just from watching loads of it to sometimes notice a transaltion is way offroad. i believe that many people feel that way and i chose not to believe you that the honorific issue is as pronounced as you say.
you might just have saved yourself 15 minutes and just said "if you want an authentic experience just learn japanese LMAO"
you are a dumbass you dont know what youre talking about
you dont know what you are talking about
aged like milk
The forcing of political propaganda and rampant censorship in localizations has proven you're just fucking wrong. Localizations are garbage and should not exist. I want to see the original mangaka or writers intended story. NOT some bastardization that turns a character putting on a jacket because it's cold into them "fighting the patriarchy" and erases feminine and gay characters turning them "Trans". Or how about a character wishing their friend luck with their relationship being turned into them being pissed off and jealous? Localizations are garbage. idgaf what you people say.
Wow, you don't know what you're talking about
lololol you are hilarious
everyone who tries to claim that this aged poorly is wrong
Yes, it didn't age poorly. Because it was like a rotten milk since the very beginning.
This didn’t age well.
how
It was like a rotten milk since the very first minute it got uploaded.