Kingdoms Forlorn | Should You Back It? | Prototype Playtest
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- Delve, Clash, Repeat -- With 70 hours left in their campaign, we're looking at each phase of Kingdoms Forlorn's gameplay loop with an exclusive look at their physical prototype courtesy of Into the Unknown!
Visit their campaign! ⇨ www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
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00:00 Introduction
01:14 The Delve
12:38 The Mob Clash
21:50 The Boss Clash
26:30 Combat Mechanics
35:45 Conclusion
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Music By: Bensound.com
Updates Weekly
#KingdomsForlorn 
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Hello Everyone! I hope you’re enjoying the campaign as it enters its final 24 hours! There’s been some amazing discussion in the comments below and some added clarification from many of you that are worth repeating:
1. Regarding my suggestion of a “Pursuit” mechanic - This has already been proposed during the campaign by ITU as the “Hunters” mechanic, in which “demons/devils and the winged nightmare…occasionally chase the players during the exploration phase”.
2. Regarding my disappointment regarding no character growth/change over the course of my play. I’ve been informed that “Knights are mostly upgraded after beating the boss and completing/failing their personal quests. They can also buy equipment and forge unique items from boss parts between delves.” I wasn’t aware of this as I played, but I also made intentional decisions (due to time) that prevented me from exploring Points of Interest that would have potentially contributed to character growth (e.g. Friendship points, etc.).
3. Regarding my opinion on the art: My reference to the art being poor was aimed at the BP cards, I have actually grown fond of the “Knight Sprite” art over time. They’re some of the funniest bits of art I’ve seen in awhile on Kickstarter.
4. Regarding my comment on clues and backtracking: I played this rule incorrectly as you don’t gain clues from backtracking on “explored” cards. This would nullify any concern I have for this mechanic “encouraging backtracking”.
5. Regarding my thought that the Delve could benefit from more narrative: In retrospect, I think the amount of narrative was well balanced - even more so when there were Points of Interest that I neglected to access. No need for narrative to exist on each card like Etherfields.
6. Regarding my comments on the blandness of the Boss Clash with the Egg Knight: I was informed that I missed a huge tactical part of the Clash which was that the “Fleischritter (or anyone with PUSH)… can push the Eggknight into pillars to remove Armor tokens… otherwise positioning for Humpty Charges to run into Pillars is the main method of Armor token removal.” I wondered why there was no interaction with terrain and no apparent way to remove armor tokens without maybe a lucky critical. This would’ve changed the entire fight for me.
Thank you Jordan for these clarifications!
Thank you for this video, Jordan! I completely agree with your assessment. It is good of you to provide clarification on things you may have missed in your first playthrough, but the fact remains that ITU needed to give us a prototype that was FUN... and apart from the fantastic writing, it was soundly disappointing. They do seem to be a great company though, and I hope they will hear constructive criticism like yours and let it drive them to make something truly spectacular. There are so many great ideas here in need of focus.
Regarding your chances of receiving future advance copies, I suspect those chances are higher than you think. They need to win you over, not silence you… because your points here are fair! People will notice if they start shutting out valid criticism.
Would love to hear your thoughts on where KF is at some time before the pledge manager closes. I feel like they ran a great campaign, but could have taken a little more time to polish the prototype and hid a little too much content behind stretch goals at launch. Hoping these were lessons learned before the upcoming ATO reprint/Sins campaign. Although, the reprint should really help pad contributions.
Loving your content :)
Thanks for this honest review. I'm an ATO backer so I was hoping this would build on those systems but seems like this should have been in the oven longer before sending it out to people. My main issue with KF is the haphazard campaign they ran that was very confusing when it came to how the game worked and what you got in the box. It feels like they got too caught up in teasing the next update rather than explaining how their systems worked (they've only explained how their knights differ gameplay-wise in their latest update, 3 days from campaign completion.)
It doesn't help that reading the various forums and discord channels about the game, there seems to be a surprising lack of constructive criticism that I've seen in other games. Most earnest, critical comments are met with all-in backers defending the game blindly (seen some in this comment page as well). I'm in for 1 but i doubt I'll commit.
You’re very welcome, I’m glad you appreciated it! If I had spent more time on the campaign itself, I would agree that the organization was rather alternative… (Hidden Early Bird rewards near the bottom of the campaign page rather than at the top, an all-in pledge that wasn’t available from the beginning, copy-paste paragraphs repeating information between different updates, etc?). I haven’t minded their teases though, even if they haven’t been WOOOW moments on the reveals since we’ve seen most of their assets already.
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As a final note, I make sure to avoid most discussion/opinion for these types of videos so I can form a truly unadulterated opinion of my own. The echo chamber is real xD
Jordan you are not the first person I see criticizing the cards art and I honestly don't get it! It's so thematic, so original, it's exactly what you would expect to see in medieval art and it makes your game experience so much more enriching. I didn't know about ATO before this campaign but for what I saw ITU did the same thing with that, using the art style from the ancient Greek ceramic and that's just awesome! I really respect them for that because it adds so much to the game. Not to mention that they are quite funny and adds a layer of humour.
Not to mention that art is subjective, a matter of taste.
I've always been a fan of yours, never miss your videos, but I must confess I'm a bit disappointed that you chose to release this video so close to the last 48h. I might be wrong but it seems a strategy to get more views from the people that are on the fence instead of actually helping Into the Unknown, if this video was published earlier it would give them more a chance to address some of the issues before the end of the campaign. Again I might be wrong but that's the feeling I got
It is indeed subjective, so it’s not a major consideration for me. For ATO, I thought the Greek pottery art could use some more depth as well, but it’s not as important to me compared to the blisteringly awesome panoramic art they’ve mastered. I will admit some of their pictograms for KF are hilarious though. I literally laughed aloud looking at them at times 😆
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As for your other point, I received the prototype on Feb 18th and opened it on the 23rd, I used two days to play it and then filmed and edited this over three days. I had to stay up to 4am last night for that purpose and even so, I ran out of time to add B-roll close-ups and the normal edits I enjoy adding. The last minute post was primarily to make sure my impressions were still relevant while the campaign was live. So I guess I’m saying that it would’ve been more advantageous for me to have more than one week to digest this game and produce this video. If I had received the prototype weeks in advance of the campaign like other reviewers, I’m sure this would have been a different story.
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Anyways, thank you for following my channel! I’m sorry for disappointing you :(
Thank you for getting back to me Jordan, I appreciate your reply. Yeah they do have amazing illustrations in the game done by amazing concept artists, I wish I had money for the Art Book 😅
Yeah I understand, a shame you didn't have more time to play the game and edit the video like the other reviewers had. I feel that having less time to properly play it influenced your experience and opinion about the game for sure and that makes me a bit sad. I've been following the game since day 1, I'm very excited about it especially with the world building and the setting but I do agree with some of your points, especially when you said that it would be nice to have the delve and the clashes a bit more connected storywise. I believe though that they will improve that. They have been very very receptive with the feedback and they keep implementing it whenever they see that it would make the game better. They are clearly open to suggestions and improvements.
No need to thank me, you have great videos, similar taste in board games and always a quite honest opinion which is refreshing. As a fan of Kingdoms Forlorn I was disappointed with the timing, I felt it wasn't fair for Into the Unknown but ofc I will continue to follow your videos. Take care 👍
The cards art look so cheap. Like a low level artist garbage art. My family could have done that art,not joking.Awaken Realms from the same country has top tier art for their game. They are not in the same league at all for art.
I late pledged Aeon Trespass: Odyssey and I am all-in on Kingdom Forlorn. These games look like a lot of fun. I hope the story for both of these games are great.
With ATO’s latest update I haven’t been more hyped than I am now! I am dead sure the stories for both will be well taken care of.
Hey, sorry for the impending long comment. Just passionate (and thus biased) about the game. I think the review has great feedback and suggestions. My topics are the game's setting, game feel, Aeons Trespass Odyssey (ATO) comparison, and discussing some of the critiques.
I wasn't around for ATO but looking back at it, I'm much more interested in this game's setting. I have played Dark Souls (this game has multiple nods to it), but personally didn't like the look of the gameplay of the actual Dark Souls/Bloodborne board games.
I think the draining of resources during the exploration phase is fine because it's a push your luck sub-game that's also a puzzle when you need to find/go back to a boss clash exploration card.
The draining of resources is similar to how Dark Souls treats venturing from a bonfire; the mobs and environment (looking at you, Blightown) try to wear you down each time you try to reach the boss or next bonfire. It's also consistent with the dark fantasy setting the devs are going for: "[Dark fantasy] often combines fantasy with elements of horror or has a gloomy dark tone or a sense of horror and dread."
I like dreading having to deal with the boss after I've tried using resources to succeed at my knight's personal quest. Trying to be smart about who and when should attack the egg knight so they or others can cycle their abilities such that no one is knocked down and killed by subsequent charges. Then winning because I persevered, in spite of losing so many resources. This is my interpretation of how the game feels so it may not be accurate for others. Please watch gameplay (I'd recommend Kiratze) or play it for yourself on Tabletop Simulator to get your own idea of the game.
Moving away from game feel, I don't necessarily think iterating on their previous game is a bad thing about the current game. It might be a bad financial/business decision if the company can't convince ATO backers that it's different enough and better. I do think it's worth mentioning for ATO backers though.
Haven't looked into all of ATO's mechanics but the games seem to be as different as two deckbuilders that use dominion style card drafting at their core, with different themes and supporting mechanics. Though the saints (a supporting, occasional, catch-up mechanic) do seem similar to the godforms in ATO.
Also, here's a few things from the campaign/other reviews that might address/counter some the of critiques:
* Some body parts do give you equipment if you crit them (like the boss's helmet), though it does seem that the boss is the only monster currently to have that.
* Demons/devils and the winged nightmare will occasionally chase the players during the exploration phase.
* Some reviews have complained of too much reading in the prototype during the exploration phase. Mainly from a knight getting enough clues to trigger a personal story event every 2-3 turns.
* Knights are mostly upgraded after beating the boss and completing/failing their personal quests. They can also buy equipment and forge unique items from boss parts (kind of like Monster Hunter) between delves. I agree that the exploration cards could be more interesting, but I think permanent upgrades should be mostly reserved to between delves.
Again, sorry for the wall of text. I hope this is helpful for everyone who's interested in the game and that it didn't come off too preachy. Have a good day :)
No worries! Thank you for addressing a number of my concerns! I would pin this comment if I could. I did notice the nods to Dark Souls and I like your mental framing of exploration as a push-your-luck resource of time. Seems like I was so smitten by the narrative that I didn’t take the time to realize that I was probably falling behind (someone else pointed out that I could’ve leveraged the ability cards to get out of my dead end).
The combat system is identical to ATO’s except for the two things I mentioned. I have an old playlist on the channel of me playing against ATO’s Hekaton and Labyrinthauros. I think the familiarity breeds some contempt for me xD
Well I backed AT:O, and this world/game is thematically much more appealing to me .. so all-in here. I absolutely love the combat, and the ART ... holy hell!
I have played several times on TTs, just remember this is a proto, and likely less than 1% of content that will be coming, and likely going to be changing a fair bit as well.
The fact we have a rulebook now, and TTs opportunity is just a bonus ... wish other games would do the same.
Great video Jordan. hope all is well!
Thank you very much! All is well over here, only disappointed that there’s only 24 hours in day ;)
Kudos to ITU for being so prepared for this launch in the middle of fulfillment for ATO. That’s some good project management!
You have my envy for that prototype, Jordan!
This is why ITU is the best
Great to see that on your table :D Hope Soon we will get Aeons Trespass :)
Long time no see! Fingers crossed for Spring!!!
Finally some criticism on this game, i have seen nothing but fanboys praising this game, your feeling about the delve and clash os exactly how i felt. No real decision making in the delve and the clash is abrupt. Just wanted to mention where I am at with this game. I like what I see in TTS but worried that ATO could be a failure? Might convert my core to a $1. The worst will just be upgrading it to a core in the PM, but I will only be "losing out" on a "free" knight which Im probably not going to play anyway
Nothing wrong with being a fan of ITU, they’ve earned it. The abruptness is easily fixed with a few premonitory sentences. I’m happy you found my thoughts valuable! Thanks for watching!
Yeah it’s funny, I thought I would be so in love with this game. I played the demo on TTS multiple times, each time just feeling a bit bored. Then kept going back for more thinking ‘I must be missing something?’ and trying again. In theory all the pieces should be there for an awesome game, but it just couldn’t hold my interest the way KDM does. Which is weird because KF should have more integrated and cohesive story to make the battle stage even more relevant and rewarding. But it just dragged each time … I’m actually really quite bummed out because I had such high hopes for this one. I’m backing for 1 euro at the moment, hoping they develop this further to get it to a place I’d feel confident backing it, but I still can’t put my finger on what is missing. Thanks for the review and honest opinion Jordan 👍🏻
You’re very welcome! I wish I had the luxury to play a few more times before making this video but that’s exactly what I felt as well. Strange.
@@WaitYourTurn and I still don’t quite know what is missing … why isn’t the fighting part more engaging? The AI and BP systems are there, but it just felt so mechanical. Maybe it is the effect of putting out and removing tokens in two phases for each knight which Kinda ruins the flow in my opinion. Then having to look back at your dashboard to figure out what you can leave for the next knight. I think I spent at least as much of not more time looking at my dashboard instead of the battle. I’d like more to interact with on the battle board rather than more to interact with on my player board
Naturally the flow will improve with familiarity and repetition. I know I suffered from learning-on-the-go bogging down play. For me, it was the lack of surprise. I knew that if I failed my wound attempt, the monster would either cause knockdown or counterattack… with the slightest chance that there was no failure reaction. Having played so many variations of that in other games, it felt too predictable and thus not worth playing for me.
Agree 100%.I also played four times and never made it to the Egg Knight as each time I tapped out due to boredom. I kept coming back hoping to find the fun I had somehow missed. I also dropped to a 1 euro pledge, and I’m starting to think I wasted a euro, but we’ll see. ITU seems like a great company and I'm rooting for them to figure this out.
I wasn't sold on this game. As a solo gamer I didn't get the sense it was going to be as fun as KDM or ATO.
Great feedback.
Happy to help :)
After playing and then re-reading the True Solo update on how squires can support solo play, it's a shame they didn't include any in the prototype. They look promising!
Thanks Jordan for this video. I am all in on ATO and couldn’t get myself to be too much interested in Kingdoms Forlorn. I am not interested in medieval fantasy, but was afraid to miss out on awesome gameplay. After watching your video I feel a lot better with my decision to not jump on the Kingdoms Forlorn wagon and instead wait and hopefully enjoy ATO instead.
You're very welcome! I didn't purposefully intend to be so contrarian, but I'm happy to help you make a decision you feel good about :)
@@WaitYourTurn I appreciate your honesty, though. Not many out there will tell straight out what they think of a prototype and would mask critique to not make it to obvious. I don't even think your view is negative or anything, it just showed me that ATO is more for me than Kingdoms Forlorn. Your ATO videos got me more excited about it. So there is also that :)
I e been waiting for this video!!!!
Haha! Happy to oblige! Sorry I ran out of time to make this video prettier :(
Thank you for your honest thoughts about this game. Keep up your good work in making RUclips videos and have a great day.
Thank you Nathan! I hope you have a good day as well!
Hello WYT!, I backed Elite Core with several add-ons then updated to All-In with all add-ons except card sleeves. Becasue I love to play narrative with the mob and boss battlers/crawlers. Then I looked at ATO and I didn't know them up for late pledge so I read updates and watch gameplay videos and still couldn't get rid of the excitement and wanting to get another one so I lated backed all in ATO with add-ons. Recently updated on ATO seem to be going smooth with their production and will have the last update by October 3 from there will commerce shipping will take time and hope to arrive on my door either November or December.
Hello fellow argonaut! I hope you're enjoying the game as much as I am! I'm currently outlining my review of the first cycle. Like many people, I may have to revisit Kingdoms Forlorn after their excellent execution of Aeon Trespass!
Hi Jordan! I have decided to go All In with KF. I don't have any other game that is a boss battler nor I have pledged any yet. I'm a "storytelling first" type of guy hence the way they create a personal campaigns around each of the Knights is a huge plus to me. The World building is also a huge deal to me and in KF I can find a lot of connections to European culture and kingdoms, so it's like obvious choice for me - I will fully support them on KF, even though I was repulsed by ATO (I do love Greek philosophy and I know it well and because of that I hate all fantasy games with Greek setting to the guts :D )
Haha, I think we can still be friends. Sounds like a great fit! I hope you enjoy the ride :)
Is it possible to buy this game or did I have to back it during the kickstarter? I missed it and am now super sad to have missed out. I didn't even see it when it was raising funds for the kickstarter. :(
It looks like their pledge manager is still open on gamefound until May!
gamefound.com/projects/into-the-unknown-studio/kingdoms-forlorn-dragons-devils-and-kings#/section/pledge-levels-4403
Furthermore, ITU has always been super generous on how long they leave their pledge managers open for and they have historically opened it several times both before and after production and delivery. You will very well be able to pick this one up if you want it!
@@WaitYourTurnhappy to report i was able to head over to Ganefound and I aped to an All In pledge. I am just about to enter cycle 2 in ItU last gane they released Aeon Trespass Odyssey and i must say it is fantastic.
Not sure you remember me but i was the commenter asking how you managed to have fun playing solo. Fast forward to today and i have been playing my solo ATO game for about 8 weeks now. I must say, with friends would be better but i am actually having fun. The story is soooo good. The boss battles and gear system along with abilities gained are awesome.
I am now so hyped for KF and cycle 4 and 5.
Hey! I have a question: I know KF has a dedicated solo mode, but even with that being said, when looking at the game as a whole compared to ATO, how do you think complexity for solo play will compare between the two? Does the true solo mode in KF really push it heaps and bounds above ATO? Hopefully you can compare as you've played both. As an additional, I would love to know how KDM compares since that's the only one I've played. I find solo KDM totally manageable.
On the one hand, I'm considering going for the core game only for KF. On the other, I'm thinking of saving that money for KDM expansions since I know I already love KDM.
Lastly, I'd like to add one more game to the equation. And this one's gameplay is most different from the others, which is why I'm considering late backing it, as it will fill a more unique gap in my collection: Primal. I know it focuses way more on card play than tactical play. How would you compare this one (as a game and for solo play)?
I think my options are as follows:
1) KF core + additional KDM expansions
2) Primal + additional KDM expansions
3) Focus only on KDM
Hello! Happy to see you enjoying KDM since the last time we chatted :D
After looking back at their True Solo update and the squire systems (that were not included with this prototype) it looks like each squire is indeed a nice simplification of a normal PC.
Based on what I read Squires *don’t* have:
- Double-sided ability cards (instead they each have their own Squire Tactics Deck)
- Weapons (and the need to customize and track gear load outs)
- Individual passion, vigor, or heat (less stat tracking)
Instead they each have:
- A Squire Tactics Deck that compiles their Delve “Vote”, their attack roll, and their power roll onto one card.
- Simplified Collective Passion/Heat Arcs based on the round number (which also help determine their token contribution to the Knight Pool)
- Some other abilities on their squire sheet.
At first glance, Squires are simpler to track and reduce the mental load of solo play. The only minor consideration would be the shuffling. The Squire Tactics Deck is a randomizer of three elements: Delve direction, Attack Roll, and Power Roll. I don’t think it’s like Gloomhaven where you remove cards and increase your chances of drawing other cards, I believe you shuffle after each time you move on the delve, each time you attack, and each time you roll for a power roll.
Following this line of thought… if you were a solo knight with three squires: Whenever you move on the delve you’re now shuffling three SQ decks to cast their delve votes. Every time you attack with a squire you’re shuffling the deck twice, once for the attack roll and again for the power roll. That means in a normal round of combat with three squires you’re shuffling those mini-decks six times at most and three times at least (assuming they all attempt a single attack). Not to mention that every time they're hit, you draw a Judicium card and need to shuffle that once or twice (before/after)
On the other hand, I originally had a similar concern with ATO’s escalation system (lots of escalating means a lot of shuffling in new BPs and AIs), but when it came down to it, it never bothered me. Shuffling was kind of a nice break in the middle of combat. So there’s plenty to think about and much can change. I also don’t like shuffling small cards, but that’s another personal preference. I don’t think either is strictly better, but being able to adapt the playstyle to whichever you prefer is good. The flexibility is nice especially when KF adds ability cards and a card cool-down system on top of ATO’s pre-existing systems.
As for your next question: how does it compare to solo play with KDM?
As the primary pioneer of this genre, KDM is surprisingly simple. Everything revolves around the d10. While some games attempt to simplify the basic systems further (e.g. Townsfolk Tussle, Primal) others attempt to expand upon it (e.g. Aeon Trespass, Sankokushin, Kingdoms Forlorn) with additional systems. Admittedly, I am head over heels in love with the simplicity of KDM (probably because it reminds me of my D&D days) so I’m unfortunately sensitive to the ‘extra’ stuff that its descendants add and what they remove.
In a word, playing KF solo controlling four characters was a lot of mental work. Admittedly, this is mainly because I didn’t have the luxury to play the game more than once which would have helped with my familiarity with the rules and flow. However, ATO was already pushing the limits of adding escalating decks and Co-op tokens. And now, with KF’s double-sided cards and cool-down system it adds another layer on top of ATO's pre-existing systems. For example, I'm still mildly worried about how they borrowed 7th Continent's exploration system for ATO when it's already a large game. Likewise, I'm mildly concerned that adding Oathsworn's card cool-down system to ATO's combat system will be similarly excessive. From this angle, the Squire System is an absolute necessity to balance the added complexity.
This is all I can write at the moment, but I'll answer your question about Primal in a bit. I really enjoyed that game too!
@@WaitYourTurn Thanks for answering. And wow, I can't believe you remember me from our previous chat!! Some people remember faces. I'm sure you're one of them, except you remember names! Haha. I don't comment frequently, but I do enjoy and appreciate your update breakdowns and honest opinions on games, regardless if you got a demo copy from them. I especially enjoy your KDM content. Are we getting a Frogdog breakdown anytime soon? :P
Since we talked, I got KDM 1.5 + 1.6 update pack. Not only do I love the game, but it became my favourite game of ALL TIME. I absolutely adore it. Thanks again for helping me decide on it on our previous chats!
Your message above and video also made me realize to not go for KF, but instead focus on KDM. I'm waiting for the pre-orders to open and the the Gamblers Chest to arrive!
I am thinking of late pledging Primal for it's unique (different) style of gameplay, and would appreciate your comments on it. I'm also waiting anxiously on Sankosushin.
No worries! Thanks! I lurk a lot on KDM BGG and Discord, so I remember reading your threads around that time 😅
Yup, Frogdog is my next video for this week. Would’ve been last week if ITU hadn’t surprised me with this prototype!
I don’t tout it a lot, but KDM is also my all-time fave (even though my collection is pretty modest in size). I generally prefer a few games to obsess over rather than branch out into too many things. Easier that way for both money, time, and storage.
I don’t remember what I said in these videos, but these should give you a good idea on my stance with Primal. These videos were made after their campaign ended due to a similar situation where I got the prototype near the end of their campaign. My critique may be a little harsh back then due to the time crunch but I have fond memories of the play experience. Shoot me any questions you have and I’ll be back!
Primal: The Awakening | Should You Have Backed It?
ruclips.net/video/qxKarzhxmgI/видео.html
Fighting the Vyraxen | Primal: The Awakening | Prototype Playthrough
ruclips.net/video/Czo1bmzcMpM/видео.html
Fighting the Toramat | Primal: The Awakening | Prototype Playthough
ruclips.net/video/oWSTcuLRzSQ/видео.html
@@WaitYourTurn I was the guy who posted that dice tray in the KDM Reddit recently, if you saw it :)
Thanks! I think I've watched that "should you back it" video of Primal and think you said you didn't back it, but I may be wrong... ah, I'll give it another go! I think the Marvel Champions-ish card play is different enough than other boss battlers to deserve a spot in the collection. And I totally get you on the choice to branch out on a few games instead of a little of many. Especially when the game is a gem such as KDM, where you NEED everything, haha!
I didn’t see your dice tray … which is strange because I shamelessly scour everything KDM always. I’ll have to take a look later xD
Also, I didn’t end up backing Primal. Not out of any personal malice, I’m just not backing anything right now until Sankokushin launches (especially since I’ve chosen the dark path of pursuing “everything KDM”).
As for Primal and how it performs under solo play, the card system is simple and yet incredibly deep. I’m not familiar with Marvel Champion’s gameplay, but I imagine they also use the stamina-discard system which creates a *VAST* decision space. It’s puzzly but rewarding and light enough to maintain a good tempo and pace. Consequently, because of the “complexity” (or amount of flexibility the card system offers) two hunters per player is the maximum I’d firmly recommend. Controlling three or four hunters by myself was mentally impossible without making gameplay unmanageable. Since two hunters is the minimum (as far as I recall), I think having two or more players would really make Primal shine. Especially with the cooperative tactical cardplay between hunters. Otherwise, controlling two hunters solo is perfectly fine.
Okay cool, did not plan to back but got second thoughts now that the end of the campaign comes closer. But this sounds like a step back from AT:O, and a rather expensive one in that. Also, All-in is too expensive but the collector in me doesn't like just getting core when there are 3 other amazing looking kingdoms to explore.
Now I wish they would make the stories a book or a graphic novel or something, since I am really intrigued by the setting and it seems that's where it's at with this game.
Great video, thanks for that! :)
You're very welcome! I also didn't intend on backing KF originally, so the lack of emotional attachment probably made it easier to be extra critical xD
If anything, the small-scale interpersonal relationships and internal lore of KF has the potential to be even richer than the larger-scale ATO. Keyword: Potential
The art of this game is great and fresh in my opinion. I disagree on your wish to turn it into words.. The rogue-like delve is so authentic and a testament to the 90's. Love every piece of it. I have more reserve on the clash phase, we will see where it's end. Anyways, i think this is a masterpiece in the making!
Like I said, the delve was the best part! My greatest fear would be that the delve becomes an Etherfields-like book-scouring wordfest every minute, but I wouldn't mind more excuses to open the storybook. Luckily, ITU is typically pretty firm in their vision -- they know what they're doing and don't make changes based off one reviewer's early opinion. Cheers!
Thanks for the video, Jordan! I'm on the fence for this game. The aesthetic and lore seem really interesting, tho some of the dialog may be too humorous from what I've seen (from One Stop Co-op Shop), given the theme and setting. But the overall writing did seem good.
Various mechanics seem awesome and right up my alley, while others make me say "ehh". However, I am still waiting on delivery for Oathsworn and a few other smaller campaign-based games/dungeon crawlers. And I have Townsfolk Tussle to scratch any sort of quick boss battler itch. So on a surface level view, Forlorn is a bit redundant for my collection, especially given the price. I will say, I don't mind the essential "re-skinning" of AT:O, as I didn't back it. Though it is still a bit tempting to late pledge/wait for online retail.
I think I'm definitely going to pledge at least $1 just to have access to the PM in order to still have the chance of backing w/ the better pricing later. And I really want the art book.
Check out the King of Average’s review. It’s pretty balanced and he has an understanding of how the game works.
You’re very welcome! Always a good idea to check out as many other reviews before jumping in. ITU kept the PM open for almost two years at original KS prices for ATO.
Haha, the 'mob-chase' idea gave me a horrible flashback to the ForeDweller! :-P
Yupppp, that’s exactly what I was referring to! That was the first time I felt true fear
As usual Jordan you mimic my thoughts. I would have great enjoyed the addition of your suggestions. Do you feel some of these concerns have been addressed well enough as the KS progressed?
I agree ITU writing is top notch but I wasn't as intrigued by this world as much as ATO. I have never played Dark Souls so maybe I just missed the boat on this one.
The KS looks like a great deal and if ATO is any sign, KF will continue to grow over the next year and be incredible by the time it is released.
Thanks for sharing an honest opinion.
Most of what he suggested is in the game….
Haha! Always glad to mimic your thoughts Heath. I just went through the last few updates that I missed, but it may be too early to expect any immediate changes. We can talk more about this on the Discord :)
It’s a strange feeling of non-urgency in the world of KF that isn’t quite as compelling as the need to survive in an apocalyptic setting. That, combined with no explicit over-arching narrative to unite these mercenaries makes it difficult for me to get excited. It’ll be exciting to see how they handle such an organic approach to storytelling though!
Hey Jordan, haven’t seen a video from you for a while. I know ATO is out now!!! Are you excited?
Just about to come back! I finished Cycle 1 a couple weeks ago and just started Cycle 2 a couple days ago. LIFE-CHANGING
@@WaitYourTurn nice dude! I haven’t touched it until I find a better organizer lol
Wait until you see my "solution" xDDDD
@@WaitYourTurn yes make a solution episode for us bro.
I’m pretty sure you only gain a clue when moving onto an unexplored card, I might be wrong, though.
The rulebook they gave me explicitly specifies to gain “clues from the pathway used on the old card”. Oh, and in the same section it says you don’t gain any clues or effects from backtracking, whoops, I got that rule wrong 😬
Hey dude question ive read playing with 4 players as true solo is very awkward. Are they making this true solo where the stories dont overlap or something
Depends on what you're used to. I mostly play solo so playing "four-handed" is my normal. I believe KF does feature a true solo mode (using three simplified squires and one main hero) however, but it's been awhile so I'm not sure what may have changed or evolved since this original update of it:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdomsforlorn/kingdoms-forlorn-dragons-devils-and-kings/posts/3434337
I think what they should do is keep the game on gamefound like they did with ATO. They should have another prototype in 1 year. Send it back out.
That's what it sounds like they're going to do with their pledge manager for KF. The ATO PM was open for like three years? I'm sure they'll continue to make parts of KF accessible on TTS too like they did with ATO.
@@WaitYourTurn I think some things are the same for sure but I think as time passes, the game will be different than ATO. Especially with the true solo mode. Only time will tell! Maybe in a year or so you’ll change your mind. Or come over and play 😂
Bummer you didn't want to hang out, I would've loved to play this. But first negative review. Not sure on this game. I'm ambivalent. It got Dark Souls feel but I got ATO coming. I don't know how largely the same it is. But it seems similar at least in broad strokes. The clash is a weird move in a boss battler making it more a dungeon crawl. But it sounds like the minion clashes really weigh the game down which is what I was wondering about.
The impact of a minion encounter in the boss battler genre has been a looming question for awhile (especially with KDM's original pitch of encounter monsters). Mechanically, they approached it in a smart way. Holistically, I think it could tie in better with a couple of tweaks. You're right about the broad strokes though, even though it is technically a "Dungeon Delver™" not a boss battler!
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(It is a boss battler)
Personally this is exactly the game i was waiting for - i will go All-In.
I’m sure it’ll be an amazing journey! ATO was a lot of fun to see it develop.
I wanted to like this game so hard, but it does not click with me. I wanted to try it in tts on steam but had not enough time to do it. The instruction was rather hard to go through, imho. I also find this whole game to be overextended on so many levels. Like you can play endlessly, going from dungeon to dungeon - this literally means doing the same stuff over and over again. But is it more rewarding than playing another game? Seems like they wanted to create a lifestyle game. Having said that I am still on the fence... But only considering core or nothing.
Sorry I couldn’t respond soon enough! My advice for every purchase is if you don’t absolutely love it, don’t get it. This ancient motto has never led me astray ;)
@@WaitYourTurn exactly. I decided I need to see ATO first. And if anything they wil do another campaign for Kingdoms Forlorn.
I didn't back AT and also can't afford KDM. That's why I've been backing this...however now I'm not so sure.
I apologize for the confusion! I will do a showcase at some point but that will unfortunately be after the campaign wraps up :(
@@WaitYourTurn No apology needed! I'm trying to take is as many opinions as I can. It's an expensive game and the more pro's and con's I can find, the better I can make my decision. Great content!
Thank you :,)
Where are you bro?
Coming back 😔
@@WaitYourTurn Perfect!
I'm posting this as its own comment for visibility, by request.
Fair warning, it's a doozy for length, but not heated, and split into three posts, because of the character limit.
(Highly detailed non-insulting video commentary in the Replies to this comment)
As commented within, I honestly understand how Jordan unfortunately came to most of the conclusions he did about the mechanics. If the one Delve Exploration Phase he did ended up with a corridor of Small cards that he traveled until it reached a Dead End, and had to backtrack along the same corridor. Thus acquiring only perhaps 1 Clue the entire Exploration Phase from the initial Medium card branching off of the starting Crossroads.
It's unfortunate, and only allowed a limited scope of the content, but his critique of the experience he had is arguably no less real despite that, because it was apparently his experience nonetheless.
I will attempt to comment on the video, addressing the concerns, and providing some points of clarification, in order of how the video is presented, as I watch it.
1.
It is unfortunate that Jordan apparently just went along a chain of Small cards in one vertical direction, without hitting a Crossroads. It's technically possible, but statistically unlikely. Perhaps there should be a larger ratio of Crossroads? Currently in the Prototype and TTS Mod there are two 4-way Crossroads, two 3-way Crossroads, five 2-way Town Roads, and two Dead Ends. Two of the Town Roads have M to their North, and two have M to their South, the rest of the Town Road directions are all S.
Of course, there is the fact that the starting Crossroads only connects to Medium cards, and at the beginning it's almost always worth move to non-Small cards as much as possible until Threat gets to 4+, simply for the purpose of obtaining Clues.
The choice of which cards to move to, both for gathering Clues, to access the juicy story threads, and managing Threat and Curse, is a tactical part of the Delve that I appreciated.
2.
I disagree on the idea of the Delve map cards having story attached to them. The story comes from the Knight Books, and the emergent story telling of your Exploration. The 'Narrative Drive' for exploration Jordan mentions as lacking comes from gathering those clues, and reading the stories, and making decisions, that come from there.
Something Jordan unfortunately missed due to apparently only running along Small cards during the first half of the Delve. I would imagine that was part of why he felt the story side of the delve to be lacking, only really appreciating the Knight-specific cards which have the Adventurers. That's a fair judgement, in that unfortunate turn of events, to be honest.
3.
I don't entirely disagree on the Exploration cards in the Prototype and TTS Mod being mostly basic. Although, I found it odd that he considered the possession effect that randomizes movement, or the light at the end of the tunnel as "more mundane" than 'remove X cards from the decks'. The latter of which has almost no player interaction, in that it just happens. With the light at the end of the tunnel, you have to decide if -1 Curse is really worth following that route. Sometimes even changing your path right at the last moment for what might be an even greater reward. Random movement is chaotic and terrible and wonderful in its own way, although I do think it can be overly punishing.
That being said, Hunters, Wandering Monsters, Ambushes, Saints, Devils, and other events will change the Exploration decks in ways beyond the Prototype.
Also, they will all have some narrative and/or art added to them now.
Not constantly accessing the Kingdom story book like KDM's Hunt Phase (which I imagine was why he was thinking about it) makes the times you do all the more rewarding. Besides, if you're hunting for clues properly, you will constantly be accessing the Knight Books regardless.
4.
Again, I don't believe the player narrative felt like it needed even more narrative on the map cards, but then again, I was able to gather most of the clues on both of the TTS Mod playthroughs I've done. Which resulted in plenty of character narrative for all players involved. Arguably too much for at least one of them, but nyeeh to that guy. ;)
It felt like we were constantly either reading Knight Book passages, or otherwise making calculated decisions on where to move. Rather than just going through the motions until the Clash started. That, and with 2 of the 10 cards being Knight Adventures, you also got to experience a decent amount of those, too.
I'm guessing due to the lack of Clues acquired, he didn't trigger many narrative sequences in the Knight Book, if any at all. As a result, he missed those which might have generated Passion or Friendship events, or use Ser Sonch's ability to add Opening Tokens to the first round of combat (due to no PoI's because of only entering Small cards), because he mentioned the narrative and exploration didn't influence the clash aside from weakening his party.
Heck, a player's narrative choices, aside from healing or wounding the Knights, increasing or lowering Threat and Curse, raising Passion, or interacting with the Friendship mechanic, can also make it so they fight a Level 2 Egg Knight, instead, or Escalate the first round, gain extra equipment (you can, despite the video suggesting otherwise!), and other stuff like that.
There are many effects to be discovered through both the Knight Book and Kingdom Books!
5.
You don't gain clues by traveling to explored map cards. So there is no 'backtrack to gain the clue' mechanic.
The proposed option of gaining the clues on both edges when traveling between map cards is also unnecessary. It is entirely possible, albeit difficult, to gain all of the clues you need to complete every Knight's story goal (presuming they don't get defeated and lose half their clues!). I got everything on my first run, barely, and all but Kara's on my second (both missing one clue, and also died in the Egg Knight fight, alas). You're not even really intended to necessarily get everything for everyone. That's part of why the Edge mechanic exists, and also why there are Partial Successes, and Failure effects.
6.
My next point is a bit trickier, but the very mechanic he mentions of being hunted on the map, is not too dissimilar to the Hunters mechanic explained during the KS campaign. Where a figure will be placed on the map cards, and by some means (not yet fully defined) move towards your party standee.
Also things like single AI/BP mini-Clashes, or other Ambush encounters that can occur with the new Exploration cards that were introduced.
Heck, Outpost Contracts can provide secondary goals for your Delve that change your decision making, as well.
7.
The real reward for the Mob Clash is survival (and using Rest cards). ;) So you can proceed with the next Delve phase and the eventual Boss.
Also, what might be money in one Mob Clash, might be resources in another. It might not be a Mob Clash at all, but a mid-boss Clash.
The LVL 3 Mob BP reward for the Ironcast Dead Clash is already higher than the LVL 1 + LVL 2 rewards combined, by the way, and also counts as 2 Wounds towards ending the Clash. Deciding between ending the Clash early by focusing the weaker mobs, versus fighting the stronger mobs is already a thing, though. The latter will likely result in more Wounds taken, which will affect using Rest cards or not, which will influence your next Clash, due to the cards being available or not.
I know I had one where I killed a single LVL 1 and four LVL 2's, compared to another where I killed a LVL 1 and a LVL 3 (Necronode, where a Critical Wound ended the Clash immediately as a Victory).
Also, the value of Gold in the Prototype and TTS Mod was limited due to the lack of progression between Delves (as there is only the one) meaning a "Shop Phase" didn't really exist.
That, and the potential for mid-delve merchants (I know I had the chance to buy an item from a merchant during the Delve, and did so).
Gold has much more value when you're able to spend it!
8.
Art is certainly subjective, but phrasing it as "some of them are just kind of not great" and "some of the art is just bad, in my opinion," is poor form.
Something like "Some of the art just doesn't appeal to me" or "just doesn't suit my tastes" is a far better phrasing, that isn't effectively an insult to the artist, so much as it is an expression of your personal preferences. It was likely unintentional, but the phrasing used left a bad taste in my mouth, figuratively speaking.
I also like some of the art more than others, and find some of them not visually appealing, as well, even if I personally find they all fit the style they have aimed for here.
I think replacing the art with narrative would not only be a loss of the art, but also a difficult sell when you have only limited room, and don't want to have too many words on the card, in addition to the mechanics already printed there, as well.
9.
The lack of consequences for Ser Sonch dying in the Mob Clash and losing half his clues would have mattered if he had clues to lose. It's certainly possible that through map card selection, he might have gained all of his intended clues even before the first Mob Clash. To lose half of them due to death would have been quite punishing, and certainly a consequence.
That being said, I can see what Jordan means about the mental disconnect between being petrified one moment, then alive and well (albeit with half clues) the next. I suppose it's kind of like a New You station in Borderlands.
Although, as alluded to in the lore, the entity guiding and/or controlling the Fog is seemingly the one toying with the Knights, restoring and resurrecting them whenever they die.
10.
Wait... Jordan skipped the next Exploration phase, and critiqued on the characters not changing, despite denying himself the ability to have gained any further Clues, or the additional Kingdom Adventures.
Refer to my point #4. I believe he did both himself and the game a severe disservice here simply due to his first Exploration Phase apparently being a corridor run due to a mix of unlikely probability and his own movement choices, leading to him thinking it wasn't even worth doing the second Exploration Phase.
11.
Jordan also stated the Eggknight is not connected with any of the Knights' personal quests, when this is just blatantly false. it's very connected with Renholder and Fleischritter's (very much Fleischritters' in particular). Less so Kara and Ser Sonch's, but them as well. With multiple interconnected choices, sometimes involving other Knights in the party, and some secret unlocks depending on choice chains.
This is particularly frustrating to hear him say, as he spoke at length on the quality of the writing... then proceeding to critique the game due to supposedly missing elements that are explicitly revealed in said writing. I'm sorry, but that's just... I'm not sure what to say, really.
12.
The Clashes are difficult, but choices made during the Delve phase can have the Knights entering the fight with Tokens already in the Knight Pool, bonus starting Passion, the boss already Wounded, the Knights going first... or even the boss already Escalated with more a dangerous starting deck, or a higher LVL version, with more powerful abilities.
Not to mention the proper use of the Ability Cards will give the Knights many advantages during the Clashes.
After all, with all Ability Cards refreshing on a Rest (before using Rest effects of cards), don't feel bad about going big and burning cards during the Mob Clash with Discard effects if you need to for a big bonus or a Second Chance re-roll.
13.
The Exploration Phase will definitely give the players several bonuses, and not just penalties, provided you can gather the Clues you seek. This all ties back to point #1, and what seems like a series of unfortunate luck Jordan had in generating the map for the Delve in his first Exploration Phase.
14.
There are actually quite a few narrative choices that do give the option to trade Clue tokens for other bonuses. Something he mentions in the video as wanting to be a thing.
15.
Several of the ideas Jordan proposes as 'radical changes' are actually already in the Prototype as it is. I don't personally agree with narrative tags on the map cards, or replacing the AI and BP card art with a one or two sentence narrative line, but pretty much everything else mentioned is already in the game.
16.
Overkill adding extra Death cards is also already a mechanic in AT:O.
17.
Fleischritter (or anyone with PUSH, but only him during the Prototype/TTS Mod) can push the Eggknight into pillars to remove Armor tokens, but otherwise positioning for Humpty Charges to run into Pillars is the main method of Armor token removal.
18.
Another new mechanic is the "Over X" mechanic, which will leave a bonus for the next attacker, based on dealing either enough Power to meet the threshold, but not Wounding, or dealing that much overkill Power even being the Power needed to Wound.
Well, that, and for better or for worse, what appears to potentially be a larger variety of unique co-op tokens than AT:O. Although not all would be available at any one time, and many are build dependent. For example, Renholder using Lux, Umbra or Tenebrae tokens, depending on the type of magic he has aligned himself with.
19.
Due to the nature of each Knight having wildly varied Ability Cards, and Heroic and Peril Arcs, they all feel quite different from each other, in a way I don't believe that Titans will be (not that they need to be, based on the AT:O system involving a gear system with more slots and modifications, instead).
I feel that the Heat system also allows far more re-rolls and pushing your luck, in a way that AT:O currently doesn't. Then again, Jordan also wishes AT:O used a "Heat Refresh" like mechanic, and I don't blame him, hah.
There are enough factors that I personally don't think they "feel like the same game". Similar games, in a way that system mastery of one assists with system mastery of the other, but there are enough differences, that the player's characters and the enemies are using different sets of tools.
Even if it was the same system, I also don't see a particular issue with developing the same system (which it's not) to different thematic elements. That allows the system to reach different audiences that might not like one theme or the other, and if the system works well, allows the developers to focus more on the narrative aspects the reinventing the wheel.
This is certainly a shinier wheel, with additional functionality, though, rather than the same wheel.
20.
Near the end he threw out "kind of redundant double-sided cards," without explaining that opinion previously, unless he's referring specifically to the cooldown mechanic. I appreciated needing to choose if it was worth using a card at a given time, due to knowing I wouldn't have it back for one to two turns (if I chose it as my refreshed card). Then again, I enjoy deck builders, as well, and proper timing of card play is key.
21.
The Core KF pledge is definitely subsidized in cost. I'm not sure why he says otherwise. It's about $20 more expensive, for a similar amount of content (and only one fewer boss enemy type, but more enemy types overall, counting Mobs), although it's currently hard to judge the amount of narrative in KF, and the Core pledge 'only' contains 6 Knights (including Ser Cockatrice), it is plentiful.
Of course, there are a few days left, and in theory something else might be added to make it an ever better deal than it currently is.
22.
"All it needs is a better reward system, where the characters can gain abilities, skills and items, to prepare them for the Mob Clash. Preparing them for deeper delving, and ultimately the Boss Clash. It just needs more cohesion, more character growth, and more tools and rewards for the player."
Except that all of that is already included in the game. Except for possibly the idea of the Mob Clash directly enhancing the characters' ability to deal with the next Exploration Phase and Boss Clash, as the Rest Phase is essentially a reset and attempt to recover from the previous Exploration Phase and the just-completed Mob Clash.
23.
I am just so sad that Jordan didn't get to properly experience the Exploration Phase, get some Clues, and experience the narrative. So many of his critiques were directly included in the narrative, both the Knight Books and the Kingdom Adventures, rather than missing like he thought they were. It's just strange because, as mentioned, he praised the writing, but didn't actually get to experience it much outside of the Knight Book introductions.
@@Fenraellis thanks for sharing such a well thought out and well written response.
Excellent, excellent points!
11. Yup, this is where I cut a huge corner due to time. Skipping that portion was my choice and it should be no surprise that I missed (1) more opportunities to appreciate the delve and (2) a narrative understanding of how the egg knight ties into their stories.
17. I didn’t see that mechanic, but it makes a lot of sense. One of the frustrating elements of the egg knight fight for me was how there didn’t feel like there was any interaction with terrain or an obvious way to remove armor tokens. That would have changed the entire fight.
20. I’ll admit, the cards needed a few more plays from me to fully appreciate and understand. Someone else said that playing four-handed was probably an action-overload moment. Let’s go with that.
21. This was an offhand allusion to ATO’s Nymph campaign subsidizing the main gameplay campaign. In KF’s case, they bundled both campaigns together without an obvious subsidy that was a bigger deal last time.
5/23. I misplayed the backtrack mechanic and gained more clues by backtracking instead of ignoring them, so I actually did enjoy the first parts of each character’s quest. I wouldn’t praise their writing otherwise (even though I expected it to be stellar from the beginning).
Well, when you list everything out, it is a pity that so much was missed. Thank you for taking the time to write this, I’ll make a clarifying pin when I have a chance :)
I just changed from all-in to core. There is sooo much content but with AT:O (and a lot more) on horizon i think i will not get that far. Specialy that KF has very similar battle mechanic to the previous game and dwelve's are somehow weakpoint (probably they will change it a bit to be more fun).
…and now the waiting begins! With 300 hours in ATO’s five cycles (60hr/cycle), I couldn’t see myself playing an hour more in virtually the same system without being certain that I craved more.
not backing anything, I already have the ultimate adventure lore game.
what game is that ?
@@raceofrobots Zerywia, obviously. ♥
My impression is that the cards art is really really bad. Like low level artist. One of the worst art i ever seen on cards for a big game like this. Imagine Awaken Realms take on that setting. The art on the cards would be incredible.Not like ATO art on the cards is better…
Exactly. It’s sad when there are so many larger companies to compare ITU with, but I fully agree that some of the card art deserves better (mainly the monster BPs). Simply compare the gear art to the monster BPs, there’s no comparison. Even I can draw better… which is dangerous territory to be in for such a visual medium. Meanwhile, the illustrated Knight Sprites have grown on me a lot over the course of the campaign.
It is clear you don’t know much about the game. Everything you complain about is in the game and has been explained during the campaign. Of course the characters grow. If I was anyone, I wouldn’t send you a prototype. You didn’t really take care with it and take time to understand it.
I thought his thought were well articulated. His opinion of the game was based on the preview copy he was sent not a copy of the game with "stretch goals" and other mechanics added during the campaign. Other content creators had similar thoughts so not sure why you have such hostility towards this video. I backed for a couple of dollars and will see where this one goes through it's development. I have ATO coming which this is basically a spawn of within a different setting so not sure I need it. Maybe three years from now I'll be finished ATO and itching for something similar. Side note. Still waiting on Sankokushin.
@@rdot8419 I think he has a responsibility to the viewers to be informed about the game if he is going to give his opinion. There is a ton of stuff that accounts for his biggest ‘concerns’ he rated it as a completed game and not a prototype like it is. It’s an incomplete picture. He was fortunate enough to be sent an unfinished work. Instead of treating it as such and taking a minute to learn about the bigger picture, he just spewed this stuff.
Please by constructive with your criticism, and try to be positive. Being antagonistic might make the reviewer want to edit the review to be more negative, will probably make curious people become defensive of the reviewer and stop looking at the game, and weakens the criticism.
This is a massive game. The reviewer was having to learn and play 4-handed by himself. Some of the critiques were based on (at least partially) misunderstandings of the rules and possibly due to choice overload during the exploration phase (or possibly just bad luck). They're still good first impressions and feedback for the devs, especially in how they present the game to reviewers and players.
@WaitYourTurn!
Since I mentioned a specific thing, the choice overload during the exploration phase is based on my assumption that Ser Sonch's point of interest, shortcut ability was available at the end of the corridor. The card should have allowed the party to be returned to the crossroads starting card. One or two knights also have abilities that let you move an extra space during backtracking. Plus Renholder eventually gets an ability that lets him put a token down and teleport back to it.
@@diszect7134 He doesn't owe anyone anything but an honest opinion. Too many content creators don't give an honest opinion because then they might not get free content to review. It's actually refreshing to see someone give an honest opinion and preview even if it's not a favorable one. King of Average is notorious for not pulling any punches in his reviews and is better off for it. BoardgameCo didn't enjoy the game and Quackalope didn't either but tried to be very diplomatically correct in what they said. They both said it wasn't exciting to play and that might have been because the preview copy just dumped you into the game without seeing the characters grow at all. Sure Jordan could have been more politically correct with his opinion but he doesn't have to be. He's probably one of the best voices for this game since he was a huge advocate of ATO. He's in a good position to compare the two and that was one of the main issues he had being too similar but not as exciting to play.
@@rdot8419 quack and board game co played the game wrong…. Probably not a great situation to base an opinion on. And this video had half of the facts. Again, tough to base such a strong opinion on. It’s not about politically correct. I watch all of Ling of Averages videos. He makes sure he understands a game before he trashed it. Not the case here and it’s unfortunate.