The Unfortunate Problems With Marvel's Phase Four
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2022
- The Marvel Cinematic Universe is by far one of the most successful movie franchises in history. From Iron Man to Avengers End Game we saw a linear timeline, packed with adventure, action, and many surprises. But entering Marvel's Phase 4, starting with Black Widow, it seems the MCU is going down the familiar path that Marvel Comics once went through. Audiences are waiting for the story to click into place, but Marvel is playing the long game.
#marvel #avengers #nerdstalgic
Written by Dave Baker
Edited by Nick Murphy 
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I don’t know how to feel about having to watch all of the tv shows to make sense of the continuity anymore, a part of me kinda wishes they stuck to feature films
Good to see you!
Honestly that's one of the reasons I have lost a lot of interest in the MCU. Needing to watch the tv shows to fully understand the continuity of the films is just exhausting.
@@Missjunebugfreak yeah man Marvel has single-handedly given me superhero fatigue
I'm with you. I like Disney and all, but I've got monthly expenses that keep me from purchasing Disney plus to be able to keep up with all of the shows. I don't mind something like Hulu or Netflix that has a bit of a wider base of content, but spending the same on a single brand specific just so I can keep up with the story in the movies kinda sucks... Especially if you don't care for some of the characters/shows. A 3 hour movie can fit a lot, but not nearly as much as ten 45-60 minute shows so skipping could lead to missing major info in the plot.
I wish more of these shows were more like Moon Knight. In the sense that MK was its own thing. It wasn't trying to constantly reference MCU events/characters & wasn't trying to set up the next MCU project
But most of these Disney+ shows are basically 'homework' for an upcoming film. Would honestly enjoy them more if they were a bit more self contained (and better written)
I think another big problem that at least the films are having is that yes, they're supposed to be back to the basics movies that are introducing new characters, but it feels like they all want to have that grand "We need to save the whole world" narrative. Shang-Chi had that dragon, Eternals had the giant statue things, even Spiderman no way home had the multi-verse collapsing. When every story had a world ending climax, it starts to feel stale. Of course the world isn't going to end because this is a building movie, we all know that so the stakes are high but fake at the same time. Lower stakes make the high stakes climax feel better and by making every movie so high stakes, they're shooting themselves in the foot.
This is a great summation. Plus every origin story now seems to introduce some lore-shattering worldbuilding, with Shang-Chi having an alternate chinese dimension thing and the Eternals retconning pretty much all of human mythology to revolve around the eternals, then contradicting that by Moon Knight having *actual* egyption gods and Thor 4 looking to introduce the *actual* Greek pantheon (despite the presence of Thena supposing to exclude this). It's all very self-contradictory and it doesn't convey any feeling that this was all planned
I absolutely agree but maybe to them this whole saving the world trope they have in all the recent movies isn't supposed to be seem so high scale If by the end, the goal will be to save infinite worlds in the multiverse.
That's actually make sense, maybe this is why I don't like phase 4 that much.
Exactly how i feel.
You can’t satisfy everyone I’m 100% sure if they went with this idea then people would complain that these new movies don’t have high stakes.
There is one more point, some people just dont care anymore. We've spent almost countless hours watching and rewatching the MCU films. Waiting years for all of the stories to conclude, and after end game, they did, the investment we all made had payed out. I was 8 when the first iron man came out, I was invested in these characters for 11 years and now that it's all finished, I'm quite happy to just let it be over. Because of this I can't really bring myself to care about all these new characters (especially with the sup par films they are in), and prepare to invest all the hours it requires to even understand what's going on.
As I said, I was a kid when it all started. Now that I'm older, this new era doesn't have the magic lure of amazement and wonder that is once did for me. So I'll go the the cinema to watch the films about the characters I already know and love, but i don't really fancy having to sit and study a whole new lore of a universe I'm no longer invested in.
Just me?
That's a lot of people i think. Endgame felt like the end and they kinda marketed it that way, so just jumping into the next big story with no real break or reset is a big ask, especially when people have already been saying fatigue has been setting in for years.
those earlier films had a lot of heart tbh, and (I can't really find the words) but it felt like each character was dealing with a threat that "made sense" to them. they weren't all dealing with world-level threats all the time, and for me I liked the personal threats / fights more e.g. obadiah and Tony, Loki and Thor
That’s also how I feel about Star Wars.
Completely agree! It feels like Endgame was "the end of an era" and although it was sad, it was a good place to end. I mean I barely got into the MCU over quarantine but.. childhood aspect aside, it feels like they've just been milking it out too much. And it sucks to see it all crash and burn, and see all these characters that hold special places in my heart be ruined. I'd much rather rewatch my favorite Marvel movies than go and see a new one--because there's definitely been a quality drop. I can't pinpoint it exactly, but it's there. I mean let's compare, say, Iron Man or Captain America: The Winter Soldier to the recent Doctor Strange: MoM. One cannot tell me MoM was better. It just wasn't. The phases 1-3 just felt so much more authentic, well-built and enjoyable. Nuff' said.
That totally depends on how old you were in 2008 when Iron Man came out. While a lot of fans like you were kids or young teens in 2008, there are even more of us who weren't that young. A lot of these superheroes go back decades in the comics so the age demographic for the MCU is a big one. Personally I know just as many Boomer and Gen X MCU fans as I do Millennial and Gen Z fans. The MCU as a whole has a powerful aura of nostalgia surrounding it. Also a decade feels like an eternity when you're a kid cause you experience so much growth. When you're an adult a decade feels a hell of a lot shorter and that childhood amazement and wonder you mentioned matures into the MCU being just a fun and enjoyable 2-3 hour escape as an adult. You just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride.
I haven’t read the comics and I think it’s very clear what they are going. The problem for me is that you can’t miss a movie or a series you are forced to watch even if you hate it. It feels like phase 4 requires a LOT more homework than phase 1-3. It’s not reasonable that you have to watch a series to understand a movie.
exactly my feelings on it. I watched all the marvel movies in phase 1-3 because I genuinely wanted to and had a good time doing so, it never felt like work. now it just feels like I'm being forced to study, I don't want to watch something I'd consider subpar because I have to to understand the characters movies that I actually still care about. it's exactly what you said, homework.
you dont have to watch it. Just read a review of it and get the main points. If it sounds like something you might actually want to watch, then go and watch it
Homework = more money for Disney
Thats probably the way they want it
Here's my advice, which obviously isn't privy to the grand plan Feige's got in his head so take it with a grain of salt.
Take any MCU script and cut the amount of quips and jokes in half.
Either have less Disney+ shows overall, or condense the smaller shows to 3, maybe 4 episodes. They don't all gotta be 6 parters.
for me i just feel like they built it up to such a high level with the infinity saga that everything after it won’t ever feel the same
My personal problem is that it feels like Phase 4/the MCU doesn't know what it wants to be. Phase 1 was pretty clear because it was building up to have multiple superhero team up. Phase 4 plays around with multiverse stuff, but there's not really a discernible direction.
If you really think about it, it’s either leading to the secret wars, or the kang wars. Which is what the multiverse being introduced is leading too.
In Phase 1-3 every single moment was building to the Portals scene in Endgame.
What is Phase 4 building to? Aside from the death of the MCU of course
Or a thunderbolts setup
@@fireironthesecond2909 To the conflict with kang and the multiversal war his story centers around.
That’s the main focus for the mcu……it’s also focusing on setting up different sections for its story telling. So people who are really interested in the cosmic side will have grand stories they can follow without having to keep up with what’s happening with the supernatural side and the story with ghost rider, blade, and the whole midnight suns story. Or maybe they just want to focus on the more grounded story so they just follow Hawkeye, spiderman, daredevil, etc which maybe goes into the whole thunderbolts storyline.
They’re setting it up so that the audience can follow the specific smaller storyline they prefer which will lead into other bigger storylines…..with the main storyline that affect’s EVERYTHING will be the big avengers level events.
It’s establishing cannon and introducing characters. Same as phase 1
My feeling with phase four is that they're kind of forgetting the consequences of everything. A massive creature ruptured the earth and no one even mention it, not a single tsunami or anything related to it. Two magic users have the power to literally end dimensions but somehow it's less important than one guy that wants to kill half the universe. Bigger and more catastrophic events are forgettable and at the same time they're trying to also focus on the small picture with the series. It looks like they don't know where they want to go with it.
Yeah hawkeye and falcon are like a whole show and its like bruh wanda almost ended a few dimenions not to mention dismantled a universe’s avengers in minutes. Like who the fuck cares about hawkeye, someone needs to look after doctor strange and wanda. Oh yeah no its fine now, pretend that didnt happen, but what hawkeye did is global news.
This is exactly how I feel: the stakes are high, but yet no one cares and so neither does the viewer
I agree, it also feels like their trying to introduce the mutants, which would be dope.
I can't suspend my disbelief with Marvel anymore. The world is so broken and doesn't make any sense
I agree, the strange spell, Wanda's powers and with eternals here and there everything is getting less consequential. Multiverse not helping it much either
my gripe with phase 4 stuff is that their products (yes, I'm calling them products) mostly look good narrative-wise on paper, but fail miserably to deliver. The most recent example is Love and Thunder. They had a villain in Gorr whose arc can drive the whole movie much like (and dare I say probably better than) Thanos in Infinity War. Instead, they decided to jerk itself to Guns and Roses while Thor running around like a buffoon.
We could've gotten a film where Thor goes on a journey to reaffirm his place in the universe as a god through his encounters with Gorr. One where Gorr comes to learn that much like the rest of us, gods can be assholes, but they also have the capacity to change for love, urging Gorr to ultimately choose love over revenge, deciding to restore his faith in a god.
Sure, that's the conclusion we got in the final product, but how we got to the same conclusion could've been way better if the production cared more about developing the actual story rather than putting together a gag reel and then calling it the entire film. Also, Jane shouldn't have died, and her entire cancer arc should've been saved for the next film.
In my opinion, the movie was just too short. By making it longer, we could have had scenes showing why Jane and Thor fell in love (again), or they could have shown Gorr personally affecting Thor (like making Thor genuinely doubting himself/if he’s worthy of being a god/if he’s doing enough for his people), or they could have shown Gorr the God Butcher actually butchering gods, or something to make the movie feel like a personal journey instead of “yeah we know the kids are all being held captive and yeah we know that it’s all a trap and yeah we know that all of the gods are under attack but look at Thor he’s naked in front of Zeus and Jane likes it ahaha!”
To be fair they were always products idk why people are acting like the MCU wasn’t always about making money. They’re movies that followed a similar plot beat for 10 years from iron man onward. Shoving obligatory jokes in when they shouldn’t be and over using CGI. The build up to Thanos wasn’t even great. He shows up briefly then disappears again then comes back as the villain in 2018. Like let’s be real, having to watch 20+ movies to understand 2 is ridiculous. You would need multiple days to watch them and that’s if you don’t do anything else throughout the day besides watch 2 hour movies.
Watch the end credit scene. Also, Thor 4's humor made sense when you watch Zeus and Hercules promising revenge on Earthlings for renouncing them and Zeus feeling bad for being weak and a laughingstock.
The comedy will be a large contrast to the seriousness of the next movie.
I actually hated for love and thunder they had the perfect bad guy and they screwed it all up cuz they didn't have a believable story
@@jOhnaProduce I don't think the movie was too short, I think they just wasted the time they had.They spent so much time on the gag reel and Thor's buffoonery that they used up the time they should have been spending on the actual story of Gorr and Thor and the effect Gorr had on Thor and the universe.
I like what you said about “it’s back to basics while pretending to be in full-blown crossover mode”. I think the issue is not that it’s disjointed, but that it’s writing completely separate stories while constantly making you expect continuity. I like the new characters and their separate stories, but they need to be more separate before coming together again.
I mean besides Doctor Strange 2 none of the movies or series connect to each other. We do see Wong recruiting people for something just like Agent Coulson did in post-credits. Just like in phase 1, 2 and 3 only the post-credits imply something larger is building up.
@@sor3999 Thor literally had Guardians of the Galaxy in it
They could really benefit from just having fewer releases in a given year and spending more resources on letting us get invested in a few handful of characters.
@@sor3999 Spider man: NWH had Doctor Strange in it, and it was more than a cameo.
@@blacktainfalcon7097 Depends on how you see it, realistically that's expected after a big crossover, like how nick furry was in FFH as it was like a month after endgame so guardians in Thor 4 makes complete sense as that would be the first time since endgame that we saw thor or guardians of galaxy ,omiting it may cause more problems than including it
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded if they took a hiatus after end game. I think having more time to appreciate the saga would have been great for fans, while marking the finale of the act. So Phase 4 feels like a new saga, not just a continuation.
They did though! Two years of no releases due to covid and that led to the onslaught of new content. I definitely think they should space out their releases more, there’s way too much content releasing back to back that it feels more like an obligation than something to look forward to
@@disconsolate3235 Two years of no releases due to covid... That sounds like a forced hiatus and not something actually planned.
@@disconsolate3235 Yeah. However, two years is very little compared to how many years it took to build the franchise and story line IMO.
Yeah I agree I stop paying attention to what’s going on after end game. Too much stuff is happening and I don’t have Disney + so oh well.
Imagine sitting down with a bunch of suits and trying to convince them, "We just had our most successful year ever. Let's stop production."
An alternative analysis would be that Endgame didn't feel like at act break, but a finale.
I think Marvel has got lost in itself a bit. People weren't swarming to the films for an overall story arc, but because each individual film was varying degrees of good quality. You had a kind of guarantee you were going to enjoy the film and sometimes be downright blown away. I'm not sure that still applies. Similar to Pixar, it feels like the golden age has passed.
That's bullshit
Nobody was jumping into Doctor Strange without prior knowledge of the MCU and if they were, they couldn't blame anyone else for not understanding certain things
The MCU has always been about creating stories that connect and follow each other, only now there's less room and more things to connect to
And that's only a problem if you're not that invested in the MCU to begin with
The entire point of the tv shows was to give more screen time to characters that needed it or weren't getting their space to shine in the massive movies
Would Wanda have been such a compelling character without us seeing what she had to go through in WandaVision?
Movie is spectacle, show is character development/smaller characters being introduced for bigger stories later
Marvel hit it's peak in Infinity war and Endgame and it feels sluggish now. After watching atleast 6 shows and MOM, it just doesn't feel good. Maybe it was our expectations which made MOM feel okish or the quality has suffered alot post Endgame as managing movies and shows is not easy.
@@notquitepeterpan6397 on the contrary I don't believe Wanda was a compelling character in Dr strange. I think there is a sort of disconnect between the Wanda in Wanda vision and the Wanda we see here. We are forced to almost draw into a conclusion that Wanda's despair had consumed her after Wanda vision without any form of exposition, leaving the audience almost detached from her. I am reminded of Ragnarok of a character skip where the users are to draw a conclusion on hulks character dev however that was done well for reasons I am to lazy and probably you have no care for
@@notquitepeterpan6397 well, I went into MoM without having watched wanda vision or any of the shows lol
@@pvic6959 how'd that go for you?
The problem is, let's talk about my favorite character Dr. Strange. The first Dr. Strange movie was one of the finest marvel movie of all time, it made me his fan and I was just a newbie back then, someone who knows nothing about the MCU but the movie was so intricately designed that you could watch it without having to see other marvel movies for reference and it focused mainly on the main character, Dr. Strange, his shortcomings, his insecurities and his strengths. Ancient One's monologs were so beautiful, the action sequences, the VFX, it was all so good. But with the second film, MOM, it felt so off, the story, the build-up, the ending and character development. Plus, Strange should be the focus on it but instead it was Wanda, the whole story runs around her and moreover you need to watch WandaVision to understand this film. I was pretty pissed after the movie ended.
I wanted to see my favorite character on the screen, it wasn't worth the hype, it made me feel so dissatisfied.
But they listened to fans and fixed the first movie's biggest problem: it had a generic and forgettable villain.
I wish Wanda wasn’t in the movie at all. He could have faced a different threat and it would have been better. Wanda fans ruined the movie for me.
I was so exited about Dr. Strange 2, then I found out Wanda was going to be in it. Knew then it was going to be a write off. It was the ONE movie I was looking forward to in Phase 4, and they ruined it.
@@Carabas72 how can anyone forget Kaizelius and Dormamu? They were such cool villains! 😎
@@Carabas72 dormamu was a forgettable villain ? are you kidding me
The new Phase 4 “side projects” focusing on smaller/newer characters still have plot lines that tell us the world can end at any minute if the good guys don’t win. The stakes are continually getting one-upped without giving the audience time to fall in love with the new characters, better understand the side characters, or relate to them. The resetting back to origin films, basics, etc works much better when the stakes mostly revolve around the main character and the possibility of their loved ones getting hurt. (As opposed to the entire universe at risk in a small spinoff movie/show)
All 3 Iron Man movies dealt with villains who just had a grudge against Tony. They didn't want to end the world, just Tony's world. It makes the conflict more personal. Even Spider-Man: Homecoming was just dealing with a local illegal weapons dealer who just happened to be the dad of the girl he was dating. Their conflict wouldn't even be on the radar of other characters.
i’m going to be honest, as a giant marvel fan, phase 4 is simply overwhelming. every movie and show dumps more and more information on us without explaining most of it. it makes watching the new content boring and complicated. i’m honestly ready to give up on it if everything doesn’t improve soon.
They lack coordination and are clearly written themselves into a corner with each new movie. It's not adding up.
Yeah. I was a massive MCU fan since Iron Man and me along with my cousin went and watched every MCU after that together in theatre. Nowadays, after Endgame, we just occasionally go if it features old MCU from before. This is because I feel like Endgame is a good conclusion, and the plot of movies just became too overwhelming (timeline, dimension, universes,…) in just few movies. We have different Doctor Stranges with the same face, different Lokis in different forms, different Spider Man with different faces.
Spot on. I’ve only watched a couple of the series fully, I’m not interested in any of the new films so far and I’m not interested in some of the shows. Yet before in the first three phases I felt like I couldn’t get enough of it. It’s just too bulky in a way if that makes sense.
Also bro, I'm pretty sick of Disney's political agenda all over the place in marvel products
@@mayanksingh3171 It’s all their agenda at this point, pandering to a group of people and not hard core fans.
"Setting up an ending...takes time."
Yeah, but stories are more than just their endings.
Exactly! No amount of 'it'll be worth it in the end!' is going to make me waste hours on the boring episodes of the tv shows or another eternals.
Thats the thing. For every flop, you have the overarching plot to keep u invested. If u have neither, the bad film stands our even worse.
Say this to game of thrones
@@Montana677 The Eternals... right up there with Morbius
yep and if the entire saga leading up to the ending is lackluster, the ending itself feels hollow and nobody gives a shit anymore anyway
My problem is that Endgame was such a perfect way to end things off to the point that I just kind of don't care about the stuff that comes after. I definitely don't care enough to keep up with all these shows that are mainly featuring 2nd rate heroes. The comics can keep bringing big heroes like Iron Man and Captain America back, but the MCU can't because those actors don't want to be doing the same thing for 20 years. So now we're left with...who exactly as the leader? It's really not clear.
Add to this that the movies and shows have been pretty bland and it's like...just let it end.
Yeah I really don't know who's supposed to be the central characters anymore. I guess Falcon and Strange are the only two right now. I would've said Spiderman too, but I'm not exactly sure what's going on with the future of the character in the MCU.
I’d agree- IW is a phenomenal ending, and if You really want an epilogue, Far from Home- but more importantly No Way Home close the book quite nicely as well.
Their best course of action was to let the current new heroes rise with X-men and the mutants. We care about MARVEL, not every character affiliated with the avengers in the comics
I stopped caring after they killed wolverine and iron man
Dr. strange is the new leader of phase 4.
Almost all of the movies in Phase 1-3 are individually good and interesting , the connection between different movies are just a big plus. Phase 4 movies just tease us what is about to come
My main problem with Phase 4 is that it is becoming reliant on nostalgia, which to me indicates an overall decline in quality. Honestly Endgame was probably the best ending you could have to the MCU, but this is Disney we're talking about. They will milk this franchise dry.
that was definitely an issue i noticed in no way home! the whole movie felt like they were trying to play on people's nostalgia with the old spider-mans and it kinda ruined it for me :/
They've been doing this since 2012 surprising people are starting to catch on
C cxchohoho
Loki might be the single worst offender in the entire MCU. Absolutely destroying one of the most serious moments in the entire series, one that had serious, lasting influence on thor, just to bring him back from the dead AGAIN
@@albertthepeacock8020 they e been doing callbacks since 2012. This is different.
My biggest issue with Phase 4 is that it's all over the place. They're setting up too many things.
1) Thunderbolts
2) Secret Wars
3) Young Avengers
4) New Avengers
Each of those things could be a phase in and of itself.
The original saga was pretty streamlined towards the Infinity War storyline. So it all felt like it was building to something while still letting each phase have a mini-arc.
Phase 1: Create the Avengers
Phase 2: Build towards Civil War
Phase 3: Build to Infinity War/Endgame
Marvel needs to learn not to rush and to streamline things once more.
They could achieve something similar with the next bunch of Avengers vehicles featuring 1) Doom all by himself or commanding the Masters of Evil; 2) Onslaught functioning as a fresh/backwards spin on bringing the X-Men into the fold, possibly culminating in Avengers vs. X-Men; and 3) releasing Secret Wars as a two or even three parter.
I wonder whether they'll ever properly use Galactus. Will he 'only' pop up in FF4, Captain Marvel, Nova and Eternals movies (if the latter aren't simply swept under the rug out of embarrassment)?
Funny enough, I feel like Civil War was actually a rushed build.
@@tindevlar that's because it wasn't even planned in the first place, they pulled civil war on the mcu just because of the buzz that BatmanVSuperman generated at it's time (lets put aside if the movie was good or bad), so marvel wanted some of that buzz for themeselves
I mean i'm a big mcu fan since the first Avengers and for a long time preferred marvel over dc, but when marvel announced that they were adapting civil war it was so obvious the move they were pulling with that
Also hints of midnight sons
@@meligm5460 i thought bvs was made becausd civil war was so good
maybe im confusing it with justice league, but still
The problem with Phase 4 are the most of the shows/movies aren’t good enough as stand alone content. Phase 1-3 for the most part was all good movies that worked by themselves and then had elements in them that all added together and intertwined with the Avengers Movies.
Phase 2 was ROUUGH tho. Thor Dark World is probably on par with the stuff now
@@JayOne718 yeah but phase 2 had guardians and winter soldier. other then that yeah it was kinda the worst phase they botched a few movies (not as bad as phase 4 tho)
@@xaalcarlsonanimations1539 I don't care for guardians of the galaxy at all tbh. I think it's tryhard comedy and action personally. Winter soldier is good but yeah still phase2 was definitely a lul
What I feel is really missing are good villains that stick around and drive conflict. We had that with Loki and Thanos, but we dont have any of that this time around. (Loki is now a "hero".) We need more iconic villains like Dr. Doom and Galactus.
Kang the Conqueror is one of those villains!
@@MakeB711 Having that mentality and deep though put on a villain would be actually good, Im just confused because my experience with marvel villains is not what you said. All the villains for me dont have any real reason to exist other then to fill a part of a formula and always felt like cgi pinatas, and are never terrifying, even Thanos who was really terrifying completly lose that aura in endgame. I honestly would wish they out aome more thought in to villains. Batman villains all being mentally ill is a big meme yet gives so much symphony, personality and relatability towards the villains while marvel villains have just been "I Am YOU BUT I WANT TO BE EVIl, NOW BEAT ME UP ANd SAVE THE DAY"
Despite the hate KSI received for his tweet, He said it best "Didn’t know I needed to do homework to enjoy a movie lmao"
Isn't it common knowledge that these movies built off of each other and its not like there aren't other great movies in cinema.
@@zjackshot bro when I watched the new dr strange it was so fcking bad cause I didn’t understand shit
@@zjackshotbut the problem is you have to watch everything in order to understand whats going on. older marvel you could watch any movie and understand it
People who said there would be a fall down after endgame were absolutely right
But i still fucking love marvel, give me more of that shit🤣
@@imdynamis9824 Just consume product and get excited for next product
@@postnutauthoritarian thats life m8.
Haven’t even watched the video
The problem isn't the story or how good it is vs Infinity Saga however. It's how these stories are distributed. It's so bloated right now with all the shows and what the video talks about that it's kinda all over the place with no real progress toward the final goal post. This has come at a cost with quality but this mostly goes for the Shows, not the movies whereas the movies have always had the hits and misses.
Also, unneeded things like quietly throwing in political stuff none of us came to movies and shows for but that's just me talking there.
One of my biggest problems is that now whenever there's a show, you either watch it and understand whatever comes next in the movies or you just don't understand it because you have not watched it. Feels like you have to watch it in order to be included in the club, only to be in that club you need to spend so much more time watching all the shows. And that feels like a job instead of just enjoying watching a series.
So true. My teenage kids and I could suffer through only the first 3 TV shows, Loki (totally butchers the proganonist's character), WandaVision (pretty entertaining at first, terrible ending) and the ultraboring Falcon and Winter Soldier. We have no incentive to watch the other shows at all. The movies are mediocre at best, perhaps the Spiderman-movies could entertain us at least but without the urge to rewatch them while I can't tell how many times we've watched the previous movies.
Yeah, phase 4 is pretty bad and it's not only because of some kind of "fatigue". For example I actually was looking forward to Thor Love and Thunder but reading/hearing the opinions and reviews, even my kids refused to go to the movies to watch it.
@@MakeB711 ... and we went to the movies yesterday and watched Thor Love and Thunder (becasue of bad weather and nothing else we could watch). It was a disappointment, even my Thor-fan daughter thought it was bad.
I don’t know about this theory. I went to see “Iron Man” to see Iron Man. I went to see “Captain America: TFA” to see Captain America. I went to see “The Hulk”… because I had nothing better to do on a Thursday night. Bad example. The point is, these were stand-alone movies FIRST, and setup movies only a distant second.
You say people aren’t willing to put in the work a second time, but that’s not true. We didn’t feel like we were putting in work the first time. This time it feels like work, and I don’t like paying them so I can do the work.
Yes and also the stories have got so convoluted. I can hardly follow what is going on. Also tried watching the tv shows and got bored because they have no logical story telling. Probably work in a comic book but translates badly on TV
Exactly, I went to see Ant Man and Dr Strange because I wanted to, not because I had to
Now watching the movies feel like a chore
This is exactly what it is for the average person who goes to the movies. Each superhero movie/series used to be regarded as its own thing. The Avengers was exciting because it had an ensemble of superheroes, but there wasn't a need to watch all the other standalone movies. Now, I see Marvel movies as a Marvel movie first and the superhero second, and it's usually a given some other Avenger will be there (because at this point, it doesn't even make sense to have no other superheroes because all the movies try to operate at such high stakes). Even if there's a movie that's initially okay as a standalone, you may have to watch it anyway because it will end up feeding into some other movie eventually. Each movie is starting to feel like an episode of a TV series rather than a movie. So it's easy to just become disinterested in Marvel entirely.
Exactly, and it's clear how the writing and character development now sits behind the desire for spectacle and teasing future releases, they would destroy a character they've built up over many years for a quick joke, reference or cheap plot device and focus screen time on what might make die hard fans excited for the next thing.
But it kinda makes it feel like the series need to exist now as that's where you get character development, even if the movies will break that character development anyway for their spectacle later.
Which is why Moon Knight is the best so far of the limited series. It’s a self contained story. And Oscar Isaac is a great actor.
As a newer marvel fan, phase 4 feels so difficult to catch up to and understand. I only recently started getting involved in marvel lore. When I was younger I used to watch a random marvel movie here and there but even though I didn’t watch it chronological order, I still felt like I could understand most of it. Now, it feels like I have to watch every single show and movie just to understand another movie. It feels overwhelming. Ofc I still love marvel but there come clear issues that they need to address and fix
Isn’t that what you had to do in the past? Watch the next Marvel movie to understand the next? What’s so difficult about adding a few TV shows into the mix?
@@wanyekest6969 I feel that maybe the issue is that not everyone can afford that paywall from Disney plus, nor do I have the time to sit down every day and watch a series. I can watch a movie every other month but these series are costly and time consuming. I work a lot and can’t watch them all.
If you don’t want to watch the shows just find a RUclips video that summarizes the plot and you’re good to go
@@jasminewhitehead1752 a paywall of $10/month? I’m sorry if I sound privileged or whatever but $10 isn’t shit for access to almost every single marvel property (excluding Spider-Man films and some x-men films), not to mention the entire Star Wars catalogue and most if not all Disney properties. Going to the movie theaters to see just one film sets you back roughly $20-30, so again, $10/month for access to almost all of Disney’s properties doesn’t seem like a bad investment.
@@Montz99 i dont care enough about marvel to pay monthly for them
I started watching Doctor Strange 2 on Disney+ and then saw the scene with Wanda and her "children".
Then I was like : "Oh, so I have to go and watch WandaVision first?"
if you guys really think about it, It took 11 years to get to end game,
But to be able to get to an ending as significant as end game was, you can't expect it again 3 years later, give it some time, you may have to wait 10 years, but I'm sure it will be just as great and significant as end game was.
I think the main problem is they're trying to release too much too quickly, prioritising quantity over quality. They could easily make the series shorter and release them a bit slower, so the audience has a chance to keep up.
Also, not really a fan of the multiverse stuff so far. My favourite series was definitely moonknight and my favourite film was spiderman far from home
The issue is they have to introduce a lot and quickly to have SW make it on a proper schedule and make sense otherwise we dont get it until 2040. The series are literally like 6-7 episodes most of the time and its spread out pretty widely if you look at the release dates. You get a series 1 month followed by a movie rinse repeat. Everyone talks about a paywall but doesn't mention they spend $40+ at a movie theater to see the movies when you only spend like $10 (or free if you just use someone elses account) to watch an at most 8 episode series.
@@MaftaFPS What kind of movie theaters are you going to? $40 is ridiculous.
@@MaftaFPS yeah what, no one pays $40!
@@commander8625 AMC? A singular imax ticket past 3pm is already $18. Popcorn $7-8 and a Drink anywhere from $5-6 now add taxes. So, 1 ticket and a large popcorn & drink combo comes out to $41.44. Now imagine you're going on a date and getting another ticket. Imagine you're covering a friends ticket. Imagine you have multiple friends (like me, I go with 8 other people) and you're trying to purchase all these tickets at one time during opening nights to ensure they're together. Now take even a small handful of those people and say "Hey, why dont we just get a Disney+ account together and all chip in $2 a month?" Simple as that.
@@MaftaFPS I get your point... but you are including snacks and other people, on top of tickets that are almost 2x as expensive as they are by me. When I go to the theater I spend $20 tops, and that's if I want to go all out.
Again, I don't disagree with you, but the way you present your point is ludicrous because most people don't go to the theater with 8 people. In fact, some people go alone. Some people don't share accounts to streaming services with their friends. And, most people don't spend $40 when they go to the movies. While you are right that it is a better financial decision to get a streaming service like Disney+, where you will get access to the movie and countless other movies and shows, the way that you presented your argument was just irrational because you chose to alienate people who don't do things the way you do.
I wanted phase 4 to deal with the aftermath of end game with the characters we already knew. They could have delved into the consequences of End Game and how it shifted the world. They started to in Falcon and Winter Soldier, but gave up.
It doesn’t feel like the old characters received good arch’s or endings, before being mostly sidelined to force new characters into the story. They could have explored so much with the characters from phase 1-3, while introducing new characters gradually and organically.
The whole Blip event was shrugged off as comedic event. Lol.
@@ronburgundy3172 not really if you watch multiverse of madness
@@osamukato2469 I can't remember a single time multiverse of madness mentioned it?? Correct me if I'm wrong
@@irisbutterfly4845 nope, no real, consequential mention of it other than the Illuminati manged to beat Thanos in a different way
@@irisbutterfly4845 I think when Strange and Dr. West are in the church they briefly mention it. But it’s very short.
I agree! The problem with phase 4 is they expect us to watch hours of some average series to understand the plot of the movies that I actually want to watch. You're kidding me if you expect me to watch falcon and soldier, and ms marvel just to understand the plot points of the next avengers movie. Wandavision was exhausting to watch, still I watched it to understand MoM, but even the movie was very average, so that just further demotivates me to watch future marvel shows, I could just watch the show summary on youtube.
I find this critique very refreshing. I feel like there are a lot of critics addressing the spicy political hot takes and not talking enough about the disjointed narrative
Just saw Dr Strange 2 on Disney+ and can totally relate that not seeing wanda vision makes the movie pointless. The worst part was I saw Everything Everywhere All At Once the day before in a theater. That movie has an extremely similar plot to Doctor Strange 2 but unlike DS2 it was actually perfect.
Yes..a much better movie than any phase 4 marvel project. Lol Disney suuucks
totally agree with u
Remember that Dr. Strange is part of a Cinematic universe, they couldn't play all their cards in this film compared to EEAAO which was a standalone film
@@brianm3160 doesn’t mean they can’t put more effort into writing compelling dialogue or better vfx or making a movie that can stand alone
@@ajbarrett3661 the vfx was great, never was there a scene that felt low quality, dialogue was understandable too, the fact that you judged it means you understood it.
The problem was;
1. The people who didn't watch WV were pretty clueless.
2. There was absolutely no reason for all those deaths committed by Wanda.
3. The film was very focused on Wanda and it never even focused on how she was getting corrupted, every important detail happened in the past or background.
4. Used the Multiverse as some sort of checklist and they never really explored it, alot of wasted potential.
5. It was short.
The film wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad either, the characters had an arch towards the end of the film.
There's also the issue of too much plot, not enough character. For example, The Eternals introduced an Avengers-sized team (larger!) with only 5-mins back story for each person. They weren't people, they were sketches of people. I simply didn't care about any of them. If ever there was a film that would have been better as a TV series, this was it.
Another example, in Dr Strange, you're introduced to America Chavez and are instantly supposed to care. Why? We don't know her, we have no idea who she is apart from 'some kid'. As a result, I felt no sense of jeopardy. And please, never tell a story using a free 'memory' app. Dear lord!
I want Marvel to slow things down, focus less on plot (although one that felt like it was eventually going somewhere would be nice) and more on character. We love Infinity War and Endgame because we love the characters in it. When they die, we feel it. I want that.
The only good thing in Eternals is VFX.
exactly that, america chavez could've perfectly died and no one would've given a shit, and for me she accepting that there was no other way at the end was the perfect ending of the movie but no, they wanted to keep her alive no matter what
@@joseignacioctm exactly, I didn't care for the character at all. I had no idea who she was or why I should care if she dies. Even the other universes said Dr strange is the threat so there was no real reason to keep America alive.
@@outlinedinmusic Because she plays a pivotal role in the Young Avengers. It's called an introduction. You build her in DS2 and she grows from there. She was a scared kid who couldnt control her powers at the start and becomes more confident and understanding at the end leaving her to study magic.
@mark Morris AGREED
It took until Phase 2 for things to get really popular, and give the fans something that they could really hold on to (Infinity stones, gauntlet). Take the time, and enjoy it.
It’s today’s audience that want to experience that “payoff ending” so quickly so desperately, they live in a streaming era, most of the older audiences understand the time it takes to film movies and shows and we came from a time where we waited for the next movie to come out. I still remember watching the first iron man and slowly piecing the puzzle together that the films were connected, heck even wondered when they were gonna connect the x-men franchise to marvel. Long story short we’ve al grown spoiled over the years and expect things so soon, we gotta be patient lol
Yeah people want instant gratification but on the other hand... In my experience and others I've spoken to, there's just too much.
Like, they just pop one movie/show out after the other. We're tired! Lol. Let us just stew for a minute.
I’m tired of the “We gotta be patient” line, I’m so sick of it. I was patient, I grew up with Marvel, but I was patient because the characters they made were created with care, it was good writing and good character work. Now I’m done with the MCU because that is all gone, it’s so bland and meaningless. The setup has all been trash for this amazing payoff people are waiting for, but a good payoff requires good character work, good setup and there is none of that. So I can tell you rn, the payoff will be shit, and I won’t keep watching shit writing hoping it will get good at some point.
This video hits on a really important point, about the whole having to build everything back up again after Endgame. My brother kept saying how he didn't like MoM because he didn't understand how it moved along the story of the broader MCU. I didn't go in expecting any of that and I loved it. I can see why people are frustrated though. Phase 1 was a lot of standalone films but they were all building up to the first Avengers crossover. Right now we've got continuity between a bunch of these different characters and shows, and it's obvious they're building up to Secret Wars in the distant future, but there's nothing in the immediate future that I'm aware of that's being built up.
I like the MCU because we can see so many different stories that can also build up to things. I like the more stand alone stuff and the big crossover stuff. I watch the MCU because it has good characters and stories
I dunno toward the end of the video he kinda lost me. At first he made sense when talking about how oversaturated the MCU is and how many of their projects have been all over the place in quality and how the cinematic universe isn't really improving. He started making less sense toward the end in my opinion it sounded like he was saying it doesn't matter if the movies leading up to this big climatic ending are mediocre because their leading up to something big & grand and people are just being impatient.
Maybe I misunderstood him but it sounded like he was making an excuse for Marvel I don't think the issue is people being impatient I think it's that the MCU is simply making movies that audiences mostly find underwhelming, on top of the fact that some not all but some people are losing interest in the MCU after Endgame a divisive movie on the internet felt like an ending to this franchise and it's not helping that Disney is constantly milking the MCU with each year needing 3 movies and 5 Tv shows that are hit or miss without letting any project have any sort of space to breath.
My issue with MOM is that the major villains origin story was in a tv show, which luckily I finished just b4 watching MOM so I did thuroughly enjoy it but my buddy who watched only the movies was all of the sudden like uhhh what the hell happened to Wanda, and it’s like yeah they mentioned a few things about what happened but u really completely miss her fall into madness and becoming the witch which is really pretty big, endgame she goes off sad but seemingly all well and fine and than here in MOM she comes back all daranged and set in her ways with barely a few mentions as to how she became that way
I saw how it pushed along the big story. They want to build up the multiverse. This however excuses nothing.
That aside, the writing was terrible. Plot convience ran rampant across the entire movie. You great actors, great special effect, great directors, yet it's medicro at most.
@@usobninja14 it's the first film which, you need to watch one of the Disney + shows to better understand unfortunately
They have a bigger issue, and one that has been getting worse over the years: the connectivity of their universe makes it really hard to make good standalone film experience. The first Iron Man film took the time to really tell a good story and develop its main character. Basically, Iron Man was... a good film. The latest Spider-Man and Doctor Strange films may have had some entertaining moments but they weren't really good, mostly because they were clearly meant to set up something else.
A lot of TV show creators like to describe their series as "an x-hour movie". Marvel movies often feel like 2 hours TV show episodes.
This is exactly it
that’s exactly it to watch something now you need prior context a lot of the time which means shows and films you can put on any x-men or sam rami spider-man films and generally get what’s going on and the characters history to watch the new MoM you need to watch Wandavision and spider-man to grasp what’s happening and why they are doing and what they are doing
@Paraone Ngatai They were setting up other movies but you didn't need to watch additional stuff to really get them most of the time. Iron Man 1 was the first, there isn't any room for required viewing. The Problem with modern marvel is that there's so much mandatory stuff to watch to get the plot that it's overwhelming. Guardians of the Galaxy's greatest strength was being distant from the mainline MCU; the infinity stone plot gets advanced through it, but you don't need to know anything about that plot to enjoy the story. We don't get that anymore.
Man I miss the days they were more preoccupied with telling good standalone moves than setting up bigger events in the horizon.
@@ronburgundy3172 Totally. That's the thing about cinematic universes; Superhero movies don't need to be bad, before the MCU movies like Spiderman and X-Men worked just because the only setup they had was for direct sequels. IN modern superhero movies the setup at the end of one movie is for a completely different character.
I dont fall into the category of “wanting the big crossover payoffs now”. I want at bare minimum semi competent writing and character work. Haven’t gotten that in a single phase 4 project apart from MAYBE No Way Home, and looking back I only enjoyed that as much as I did because of the nostalgia. Not trying to sap anyone’s enjoyment of these shows but I think I’m done. Recent marvel has been some of the blandest filler content I’ve ever subjected myself to. Who cares if it’s building to secret wars. Dr Doom saying “the line” doesn’t mean shit to me if it wasn’t built up properly. I’m just over it. Bummer but such is life
Bateri bummer
YES! For me,the big crossover event is just a 'bonus' or more precisely,a payoff.It's gonna be useless if the build-ups aren't as good.
@@nadiahapsari3359 i mentioned this in a few of these "i wanna see this (insert fan favorite comic characters who havent showed up yet) appear" fan cameo videos
"i dont mind fan theories about who wll show up IF the character fits the story the mcu is currently telling"
i honestly seen 30 videos in my algorithims about "xmen reveal" with photos of hugh jackman, and when i ask people "what does wolverine have to do with the multiverse?" and the answer is "oh i just want wolverine to show up
" the biggest complaints about the multiverse of madness was how "john kransinksi's reed richards just showed up and died" i said "didnt yall say you just wanted him to pop up and didnt care it mattered storywise?"
i know emily blunt has stated she wont do any superhero films and yet they keep saying she has to be sue storm..im like "are they gonna kidnap her and force her to play sue storm??"
one channel i love is nando vs movies because he actually goes into detail about what hero or villian makes the most sense to show up and could serve the plot that the mcu is building up with multiverse...
i mean despite kang has been told to us by kevin feige hes the main bad guy everyone keeps wanting to see dr doom or galactus...
i dont hate the mcu and i dont even hate these clickbait cameo channels who spin things and lie to get peoples hopes up, theyre the idiots who listen to a youtuber over people who run the mcu
For me there's a couple of key points:
- in the run up to Endgame I only watched a couple of the films because they might be relevant, I was getting a bit burnt out watching superhero films, and only really kept going for the pay off of Endgame.
- A few of the new shows around established characters feel less like shows about the title character, and more launch pads for other, similar characters. It almost feels like the baton is being passed to new, cheaper talent with some of them.
I think most people aren’t expecting something crazy every time and realize it’s building again. It’s more like what you said, some of shows/films themselves feel clumsy and not well done
I agree! Most of the shows to come out during phase 4 are just horribly paced. They don’t really feel like they’re adding or contributing to the overall story. I’ll keep watching because I know the secret wars story will be great. But man it’s starting to feel like a chore to keep up with the these bland shows and movies.
Yes. Less bombasticity and more building!!
With saving the entire world and being introduced to every single character simultaneously, The Eternals was both a (sloppy) start and a grand finale. The visuals of all these Phase 4 productions are amazing, but the storytelling is so poor.
Perhaps I liked Hawkeye best in hindsight, surprisingly. Its simplicity was its strength. Two characters we have been familiar with, now dealing with the death of another character we've grown to love (Natasha) - and the introduction of a new main character (Kate) and her family to "softly" warm us up the new era. No world ending. No multiverse mind-blowing. Just Hawkeye trying to get back home before Christmas.
Now I know avid readers had more expectations for Kingpin, but as a fresh viewer the main story of this miniseries wrapped up nicely. Character growth was clear. I wasn't left with the same questions I started out on. I'm ready for the stakes to get a little bit higher the next time.
It's a tough situation for Marvel. They had that amazing run and finished it with a movie literally called Endgame. I really enjoyed the first 3 phases. But now I don't care anymore. I am not even sure what they could do to make me care. It kind of feels like I have been in a long solid relationship, but I just realized I don't want to spend the rest of my life with this person, and it's time to break up. Sorry it's not you it's me.
Disney really needs to learn how to let things die, or at least go into hibernation mode for a bit. Sure they're making buckets of money now, but burning their fans out and never putting any effort into developing new original IPs will bite them in the butt once they can no longer depend on Millenial nostalgia.
EXACTLY how I feel about it.
I grew up reading the comics, stopped in mid-90s. I was so excited to see Infinity War on the big screen. But then, that was it. What could they do next?
@@jessip8654 This is so true as a matter of fact their refusal to let franchises end after they've had a pretty obvious ending is currently biting them in the ass with Lightyear underperforming.
F off.
It’s not you it’s them.
They kept the MCU going long past it should have lived
Yeah I don’t care as much and they aren’t capturing any interest really. Now I selectively pick what new movies and shows I want to watch instead of watching everything. Haven’t watched Loki or that seven rings movie and Hawkeye and winter soldier and falcon show were let downs.
Phase 4 has been frustrating and that's weird in itself because marvel has never shied on pulling major punches and reveals before.
Nick Fury was there setting up the avengers in their first movie ever.
This time they hesitated when Quicksilver was brought in and made it just a joke, Falcon and winter soldier had such low stakes, Hawkeye could have used with a few more cameos,the multiverse was never used to its full potential in Dr strange and then Thor just went off the rails. We aren't into crisis mode yet but they need to figure it out. They have all the ingredients needed to make the tastiest of blockbusters but for some reason they aren't using them.
As a bit weary of the formula as I was, at least phase 1-3 had clear buildup.
Phase 4 seems all over the place with only WV-NWH-MOM having a clear timeline.
Not to mention Marvel fatigue. I excused last year due to 2020 being absent for Marvel stuff but it seems we're getting overwhelmed now.
Phases 1-3 had nothing resembling a buildup until Infinity War started to pay things off. At best you had random drops of Infinity Stones that people were getting tired off by the time of Age Of Ultron.
This. I already noticed the Marvel fatigue right before endgame, but after this conclusion im finished with the MCU.
I dont even mean that in a bad way, it was a fun ride and i enjoyed it a lot.
After 14 years, its just time to move on.
I mean just like all the OG Marvel actors, they also realized endgame was the perfect time to move on
Well 2020 pushed a bunch of their projects back don't forget some of these movies were released out of order so that is why some feel disjointed
Captain Marvel was the beginning of the end.
@@siiir1322
It's less that the OG Marvel actors suddenly decided to moved on after Endgame, and more that Endgame was planned for when their contracts were going to run out.
And great job talking about the movies picking up the plot threads from the TV shows
That was my main concern for MOM and y'know what happened? A good chunk of the general audience complained it was too confusing simply because they didn't think the shows were important.
It's not so much that we didn't think the shows were important. It's more I tried watching them and couldn't make it through even 1 episode of any of those steaming piles of garbage.
Bullspit, they mention westview but you do not need to watch it to no what happened. also guess where the other wanda lives with her kids, alternate Westview no doubt.
I didnt watch any of the shows and had my friends explain it to me before MoM. i mostly got the story lol
@@carlosrivas1629 if you don't know anything about wandavision, you don't know what they're talking about. I didn't watch wandavision, and I didn't understand the movie. The only way I made it through was by guessing plot points from trailers and snippets of discussion on the internet. It didn't function as a standalone film, or even as a film that could be understood by watching the other movies.
You shouldn't have to watch the tv shows to know what is going on in the movies. The tv shows should enrich the experience and give you some back story, sure. But the average viewer that didn't see the tv shows should be able to walk into a Marvel movie, understand what's going on, at least at surface level, and enjoy it. Then maybe one day when they get around to watching one of the Marvel shows, they'll say to themselves "Oh! I knew why the world was ending but I didn't know WHY why. That makes even MORE sense now." No one should be lost because they didn't see the tv show.
Your conclusion presupposes the idea that the MCU will last long enough to reach such a conclusion, but that's not a guarantee. Entertainment history is full of stories - either singular or within a shared continuity - that never got to have a satisfying payoff because the public got bored and moved onto other things.
We can actually see a direct parallel to the MCU care of the Showa Period of the Godzilla franchise. Despite not being a planned shared universe, it nonetheless was, and it even got its own Endgame-style finale in the form of Destroy All Monsters. However, because that movie did so well, and because public interest in Godzilla was still strong, Toho continued the series with a string of films that got progressively campier and sillier to a point where, at the time, nobody could take it seriously anymore. By the time the films attempted to course correct in the mid-Seventies, it was too late, and the series just fizzled out. Godzilla would turn up in a few small American projects afterward, but the films would go dormant for almost a decade before getting rebooted.
Of course, that was just for a series that naturally ran its course. The MCU is facing way more problems than the Godzilla series ever did. From the passing of Chadwick Boseman disrupting their plans for Black Panther to the controversies surrounding the Disney company itself, things are pretty rough. We've already seen some of the recent MCU movies and shows falter, and the only one to match the Avengers movies relied heavily on nostalgia to draw people in, a trick that can only work so many times.
A rocky beginning can sometimes be excused by a good payoff, but if the payoff never comes, what then?
Really well said.
@@PeterGriffin11 Wow, you really look like that James fella from Team Rocket.
@@lightningpenguin8937 It's just a coincidence.
His conclusion is that if fans don't like phase 4 it is their fault. Apparently bad writing doesn't exist anymore and dissatisfaction comes from having expectations.
I love how this guy clearly is the only one who watched the video in this comment section.
I don't think Secret Wars can ever reached the height of infinity saga. Simply for the fact that it's harder to get invested with the new heroes since most of phase 4 suffer from grand convoluted plot with too many new "protagonist". In phase 1 to 3, most intro films feels very grounded and personal where there's no world ending threat. Even Thor is mainly focus on his redemption and rivalry with Loki. While they have multiple main characters, the spotlight and perspective is always focus on 1 centralized hero. It let us grow and completely sympathize with each and one of the heroes. But now, in Hawkeye there's 2 protagonists, multiple villains and side characters that might as well be a protagonist too. Same with others. I remember you made a video about the issue with too many villains and I think the exact same issue can be applied to the heroes in phase 4. Thing is, even in Ironman 1 and 2 have characters that would play a bigger role in the stories like Nick Fury and Black Widow, but the difference is that their characters were significantly held back and reserved in those films for the future installments which ironically enough make us more invested on those characters for the air of mystery rather just immediately spill everything about them within 1 film.
Hawkeye and Kate Bishop is faithful to the comics. Two heroes isn't a bit deal. Clint Barton is getting older too.
Clint was like an old dog learning how to open up and Kate was really eager to meet him, and it was fun to watch.
Also 9 out of the 10 new protagonists are just the same strong female charater who are about as compelling as carboad because they are too perfect to be a intresting charater, and the same overall message of "girls are powerful as fuck and go against being put down by men". The movie in question is just going to be a bunch of overpowered feminists facing down a male villain, pretending like WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT BEFORE HUNDREDS OF TIMES IN THE PAST FEW YEARS
Beyond the personal aspect of the movies. The introduction movies all felt different, outside of just the heart.
Iron Man was an action-adventure film.
The Incredible Hulk was a thriller akin to The Fugitive
Captain America was a WW2 movie
Thor was a Shakesperean drama
All of those movies used the superhero aspect as a pastiche as opposed to being the substance.
I can't speak for the phase 4 movies as I haven't paid much attention to them, but from the clips, that aspect has been forgotten.
@@HongFeiBai 2 heroes is kinda a big deal especially when one of them is being newly introduced and the other one we barely explored his character arc. Cause now you're facing with 2 central characters and perspectives. Not to mention halfway through the story there's also Black Widow's sister involved and Echo too. If they were introduced later on in the series maybe in future seasons (like the Punisher in the Daredevil series) that would significantly improved the story imo. Same with Bishop.
@@nathanjereb9944 I mean, I don't really care about genders. You can make strong genderless blob as a main character as long as they are compelling enough like Ironman or recently Jinx from Arcane series and I would grow to be attached to them. And tbf characters like Wanda from WandaVision were attempted to be compelling. It's just that the awful CGI fests and generic marvelised storyline and humor being shoved into a somewhat interesting premises kills any investment I have with the characters and stories.
Its overwhelming how much content they’re pumping out
Same💯💯💯. It’s absolutely exhausting
Right? I'm a huge comicbook fan but I'm legit worried that they're gonna oversaturate the market. These projects used to be something that you look forward to in a calendar year. 2-3 films a year.
They used to generate much more hype. But now, there's like a new Superhero thing every other month or so. Hate to say it but it's gonna get tiring to try to keep up with all of the Superhero offerings from everywhere(not just the MCU). It already has 'taken a toll' on a few of my friends.
Trash can filled full of trash...
Also, there's such a thing as quality over quantity. Making/releasing all these projects in such a short amount of time is definitely gonna affect quality. In my opinion, there's already a noticeable dip in quality
@@ItsTheGuy77
Disney is doing the same thing with Star Wars.
In retrospect, marvel releasing tv series during a pandemic made the most absolute sense considering theatres were shutdown
Just release the movies in the same streaming services like DC is doing?
They should've used the time during the pandemic to properly WRITE and RESEARCH their characters and momentarily go on hiatus to give us something TRUELY great! The writers should have READ the material DURING the pandemic and made it EXCEPTIONAL by the time they released it.📚 Nah, let's just DO something every 5 minutes crapping on our once STELLAR legacy 😑
@@yoaiou well they'll do it eventually, but I think most people would prefer the movie to come out on theaters and the to D+ instead of directly to D+ with the overpriced "premier access"
And that is one of the good thing about Phase 4
But the TV series are just...not bad just, not good. And each one is worse than prior. It made it easy to snip the D+ charge to save money these days. Content is not the same thing as story.
I think the problem is that the MCU failed to amp up the personal stakes to conpensate for the loss of larger scale stakes in many of these shows, and few of them would have been watched mutch if they were stand alone outside the MCU. Doing multiverse was a good idea, but combines very poorly with going back to basics. I think it should have been one or the other. Phase four: introduce our new crop of heroes, give them an avengers style crossover to cap it. Done. Short and sweet, then pick up with loki, strange, what if, no way home, back to back, making phase 5 all about establishing the multiverse. I think the problem the audience is experiencing is that phase 4 is trying to do both at the same time, and as a result the phase feels disjointed.
I totally agree with the personal stakes. Like, we all know the Avengers will save the world. I think that’s why I like Civil War, because every person is affected by the outcome no matter who “wins”
I think of the phase 4 shows so far, the only one that's really done personal stakes well is Loki, until the final episode flips it all on its head and we don't see the outcome. The scale of Loki's life is cast before his eyes and he sees how truly insignificant and identical he is in every universe. He's basically nothing, the infinity stones are nothing, his whole goal of ruling is truly tiny when everything comes into focus. And he's RUINED by it. He realizes just how little a difference he's made throughout his infinite number of lives, before realizing he truly can make a difference by overthrowing Kang the Conqueror and ushering in a truly unique timeline, before being forced to question if what he did was the right thing in the final episode. Hawkeye does it a bit too but not to the same degree. But Wandavision, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, none of them come anywhere close to how well Loki does it. Even with Wandavision having multiple returning characters just like how Loki did.
@@Vordt_ I think phase 4 is very muddled by trying to do back to basics, and major crossovers, and multiverse setup at the same time. Loki was a great way to introduce the multiverse concept, and spiderverse was great to bring it to the big screen, but if we do multiverse setup this phase, moonknight and ms marvel don't fit. eternals don't fit either.
If we do back to basics, Dr strange should not have been in no way home, and most of the multiverse movies and series should have been delayed until after introducing the new generation of heroes. This mcu phase seems at odds with itself, and that's been to the detriment of both the new heroes who have not been given the room to shine next to titans like spiderman, loki and strange, and the existing heroes who are starting to build a multiverse plot without the dedicated focus something like that needs.
Nailed it
@@shadeblackwolf1508 That makes me question if it would have been better for them to have made origin movies for these new characters rather than shows, and why they havent bothered to involve the older marvel tv shows in the new series. Why spend so much time developing daredevil, luke cage, etc. but then not involve them in the new series. Eternals definitely didn't need to be made into a solo film, it could have and probably should have been a show so there's a lower budget and less focus pulled on it to do well. It generally feels like phase 4 has so much riding on the introductions, but the introductions aren't interesting enough to the theme that it becomes this muddled mess of characters in their own stories. It makes me long for Phil Coulson, as of now there's no one to act as a bridge for these characters between the shows and movies like he did with Iron Man and Thor and then in the Avengers he was a character that already had a rapport with the others.
Also, why the heck wasn't Stargirl introduced in a previous show or movie, why was she just thrown into Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness??? I believe this may be the first time marvel has introduced a plot relevant character that isn't the title character or a villain, in a movie. The only others I can think of are Black Widow in Iron Man 2, T'challa and Spider man in Civil War, but they weren't a focus in those movie and weren't quite as plot relevant as Star Girl is.
Just wait till Phase 5: The Search for More Money...
I hope it doesn't go bad.
@@SpammytheHedgehog It already gone bad. Focusing more on being politically correct than to make good movies. Focusing more on bringing old characters from old loved movies than to make new ones that feel real and interesting. Making pretty convoluted movies like Eternals that create massive plot holes, or shitty TV shows nobody cares about.
The MCU should have ended with Endgame and for me it did and I'm satisfied
It was better when Yogurt said it.
space balls reference
@@Mar_s-vy6jsReally, how they are PC?
I feel like the Phase 4 momentum problem is less the audience being impatient, and more what you hit on with Marvel going "back to basics" while still driving at Phase 3 speed.
Like, Marvel never pumped the brakes to lay Phase 4 foundation in stand-alone movies. The movies are more interconnected than ever, and they're littered with bait setting up things in a dozen different directions.
So if you don't know the comics well enough to know where it's leading, it's impossible to tell if an open thread is for a TV spinoff, a sequel, a spinoff movie, or leading to the next crossover (or if it's just a dead end). It's all just noise that makes it feel like there's no direction or momentum.
IMO, anyway.
Oh yeah, they're making an Agnes, or so I've heard. Yet they canceled Squirrel Girl. This world is truly unjust.
This is very true. If it weren’t for channels like emergency awesome I would be very lost rn. Like post credit scene of MoM I didn’t know who she was and how she was important in anyway.
Yeah I almost think Loki happened too early. It set people’s expectations that the next big crossover was coming too soon. And now it’s been a year since that show debuted and things just feel stagnant.
Yeah I wish they went back to smaller-scale villians for the stand alone stories. Every problem now feels like an Avengers-level threat yet it’s not an avengers-level hero.
A big problem I had with Eternals was that so much was going on and they had this huge world-ending problem but they still were trying to set up the (multiple) characters. Too many plot points for one movie.
Shang Chi also felt like the villian was on too big a scale but I’ll give them a pass because it didn’t feel too egregious.
NWH was a HUGE threat that for some reason only Spiderman had to deal with? And quite honestly they did a whole lot of multiverse logic without it being super consistent.
I generally have a problem with how they’re handling the multiverse as a concept. I feel like it’s being introduced in too many ways that don’t seem to be connecting. The Loki, NWH, and MoM timelines don’t add up enough for me right now and I wish they were either more spread out or better intertwined.
Overall, they are setting up too much on too big a scale for the world they’ve already established.
@@mercyxmutual One of the big issues is that Phase 4 is full of heroes who frankly aren't as interesting. The Eternals was never a comic that interested a lot of people. Nor Shang Chi. Both are literally marvel IPs that went decades without a series. The Marvels have also never been popular, it's series that have always been frequently cancelled over the decades.
If the hardcore fans never cared for these characters than the casual viewers never are going to be that excited.
Honestly, my biggest problem with Phase 4 is that up until this video, I didn't really know where the MCU was going. With the Infinity Saga, even if you weren't the type to read every comic book out there (which I will admit I am one of those people) the films still give you just enough information to let you know what's going to happen. Phase 1 featured how the Avengers got together, Phase 2 incorporated the discovery of each of the Infinity Stones, and Phase 3 was the culmination of 1 and 2 leading up to the final battle with Thanos. With Phase 4 however, everything seems kinda chaotic and all over the place.
My biggest problem is they've yet to introduce a single new character that I care about so I have zero interest in seeing them crossover.
Just you wait, when you least expect it... It's MORBIN' Time!
Bingo
My big issue with this phase is just how they feel like they have to go bigger than thanos. The infinity stones were meant to be the most powerful weapon and yet it seems like every marvel thing nowadays goes to universe 546 to stop the multiverse from imploding on itself
Honestly if Secret Wars is what they're building to... they're doing a really bad job of it. And this is coming from someone who liked Wandavision, What If, Loki, Spider-Man NWH, and Dr Strange 2! Individually, each of those projects use the multiverse in an interesting way and tell pretty good stories at the same time.
But... there's no cohesion between them, and the multiverse itself doesn't seem to follow the same rules between projects. For example, Spider-Man and Dr. Strange came out back-to-back, and even involve some of the same characters, yet the multiverse in Spider-Man and the multiverse in Dr. Strange feel like two completely different takes on the concept. Then you throw Loki in there and it just asks more questions... like, would any of this have even been possible before the divergence at the end of that series? How does time even work? Based on her age, America Chavez would have had to have had her thing happen before the divergence... or I guess, since the divergence happens at the end of time it happens outside of time, so the multiverse always existed? Except when it didn't?
The tricky thing is that a lot of these projects were impacted by COVID and rearranged, rewritten, and reshot to accommodate, so it's hard to say if these issues are baked in or just a result of things outside of their control. After all, originally Dr. Strange was going to pre-date Spider-Man, and Wandavision was supposed to act as an EPILOGUE to both movies. And I have no idea when or where Loki and What If were initially supposed to fall.
And then outside of the multiversal stuff we have Black Widow, Shang-Chi, Eternals, Falcon & The Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Ms Marvel (and the upcoming She-Hulk) all of which seem extremely self-contained and unrelated to everything else. In previous phases these projects on their own would be their own phase, lead up to Young Avengers or Thunderbolts or whatever the hell... but now they're awkwardly mixed in with the multiverse shit and it's just... a mess.
Not to mention the post-credits teases which are now going ALL OVER THE PLACE.
You have a few that are simple and have been resolved - Black Widow 2 gets sent to take on Clint Barton and shows up in the Hawkeye show to do just that, Wanda goes to study the Darkhold and hears her kids in another dimension leading to Dr. Strange 2 - stuff like that is easy. But then, off the top of my head, we have:
- Shang-Chi gets approached by Wong about some crazy threat that is related to the rings
- Shang-Chi's sister also takes over the Ten Rings terrorist organization, leading to who knows what
- Creepy CGI Patton Oswalt and Harry Styles show up to help track down missing Eternals
- Jon Snow picks up a sword and Mahershala Ali's Blade asks him if he's ready
- Charlize Theron shows up and tells Dr. Strange she needs his help saving the multiverse
- Venom leaves a part of his symbiote in the mainline MCU
- Elaine Benes tells dickhead Captain America that she has plans for him
- Sharon Carter is revealed to be a secret puppetmaster supervillain
- Monica Rambeau gets told by some Skrulls that were hiding within S.W.O.R.D. that they need her help
And these are just the loose threads that I could remember, I'm sure there are more.
Now I know we have Captain America 4 confirmed and Loki Season 2 confirmed, so those will probably be wrapped up there. And then others of these (like the Patton Oswalt/Harry Styles one) are probably just setting up direct sequels (even though Eternals probably won't have one). And a few of these will never be followed up on at all (like Mordo's post credits scene in Dr. Strange 1). But enough of these seem like large enough set ups that they ARE leading somewhere big... but almost none of them seem like they're leading to the same big thing?
It's possible that Wong, the Skrulls, and Charlize Theron are all talking about the same major threat, but that feels a bit unlikely since at least one of those is directly related to the multiverse and the other two seemed more galactic (Galactus?). But what the hell is Elaine Benes up to? And is Sharon Carter just a tease for Captain America 4, or is it something greater? Who knows!
We still got Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and Thor: Love & Thunder's post-credits scenes to go, so maybe those will bring some clarity! Or they'll be one-off gags! Or they'll just ask even more questions and set up even more loose ends! Ugh... this is getting exhausting.
Plus the Endgame time travelling was also multiverse. All these different takes on the multiverse with different rules is just confusing.
My examples below might be bad or wrong, but that just demonstrates the ambiguity and lack of clear rules in the writing of these shows and movies.
Doctor Strange: has infinite realities and dimensions, i.e. other universes.
Endgame: Travelling to the past and changing stuff doesn't affect present. Therefore past is actually different universe with exact same history up to that point. What the Avengers did definitely changed the future of those universes hugely. Wouldn't that cause an incursion?
Loki: All timelines are kept in line with the sacred timeline all what ever it is called. What does pruning do I still don't understand even now. Doesn't killing the variants mess up the timeline anyway? What about all the other crazy universes and dimensions? E.g. paint universe. If they freed the timeline at the end, aren't they affecting all the universes in the past and future? So how can they be from the timeline and yet still affect their own history before they left the timeline?
What-If: absolute point in time makes no sense and is stupid.
Spiderman: spiderverse.
MOM: why can you dreamwalk into yourself in other universes? Why are the variants considered the same person? Isn't it just another completely different person that just happens to resemble you in some way? If the link is dreaming, then what about when you dream about being a different person?
None of the movies or TV shows are consistent with each other in the way they present the rules. The only way for it to all be consistent is if there are layers upon layers of multiverse, or groups of universes with rules in between certain groups of universes but different rules with other universes and layers.
If they just had internally consistent rules from the start instead of lazily writing random new shit for each movie to suit the plot, it would be less confusing to watch.
Marvel is introducing way too many characters to keep a track of every one of them.
@@aftokratory Pruning just eliminates universes in which a Kang could be born.
No way you typed it all by yourself😲
Best comment ever. You summarised all the arguments and feelings of the audience that has been feeling secretly and strangely disappointed. It was hard for me to accept that this phase with better visual effects and higher budgets was way below the bar Endgame had set. But MOM finally made me lose my excitement in future developments.
i normally can agree w nerdstalgic's points in his videos, but this felt really off the mark. As a day one MCU fan, idc about going back to basics, but my problem is they *won't* *commit* to going back to basics. Back to basics would be spider-man having a regular, solo adventure in the city and dealing w his ID being outted in a normal, grounded way, not Live action spiderverse. If we were going back to basics, moon knight would've been a more self contained story about a vigilante struggling w his personality disorder, instead of giving him all these powers and this avengers level threat. The problem is that they're promising "back to basics" but trying to act like they're setting up grand, sweeping stories without putting in the narrative leg work to get us hyped for it. It feels like the head honchos are just being lazy and trying to split the difference, and neither approach is working because of it
EXACTLY. They are trying to have their cake and it it too with the world-ending stakes, cameos, and multiverse shenanigans inside the (supposedly) little origin stories. They all end up serving the spectacle instead of the plot or characters and so the characters feel terribly surface-level and hollow. I actually really enjoyed Hawkeye because of the laid back, character-driven, more grounded story. That was, until the last few episodes where they _had_ to bring in all the camels and Kingpin without compelling buildup, just for the sake of the shock factor
a story where spiderman's ID is outdated sounds like fun! XD I mean, his was the only stand alone movie with high stakes i enjoyed because they brought in multiverse characters in a meaningful way. but you are absolutely right!
Yeah I blame sony for that, rumor is they forced the multiverse story to try to revive their own marvel universe. Marvel wanted the beginning act to be the main storyline with Matt Murdock as Peter's Lawyer, not cameo but a real introduction and lead role. Neither one of them are innocent, Disney owning marvel has really made things worse with their money grabbing tactics and disregard of quality. Hoping they reboot phase 4, with a more grounded concept, the multiverse not being one of them...
Honestly Thor love and thunder did this better than most of the other recent projects
This is it! They should have just made all of these stories isolated, focused on making them good and then make the connections afterwards with a few post credit scenes like P1. I think most fans would forgive continuity errors if the stories themselves felt real and were actually good. Also they have to STOP trying to setup future seasons and use easter eggs to sell their shows. The kingpin "reveal" was the worst attempt at storytelling/fan service Ive ever seen. For those who watched DD it was kind of cool to see him again but for everyone else he literally added nothing to the story. He came by at the last minute, acted like cartoon villian for 2 min, had a terrible choreographed fight and obviously fake died. Its like the showrunners didn't watch DD at all. We liked him because he got an amazing story arc where Dinofrio actually got to act and add character/depth to what had previously been a bland villian role.
I loved the first Dr. Strange. Good characters, solid arc, unconventional ending - a well-rounded work. It didn't matter whether you had seen any other Marvel movie or not - you could enjoy this story for what it is because it worked on its own. The second one, on the other hand, feels like bad fan fiction written by someone obsessed with way too many superheroes and paid by the MCU reference.
So yeah, you named the problem, and it is a big one: Marvel has become abysmal at telling stories because it has lost the ability to focus. But then you ask us to stick with it anyway because "it's going to get good again at the end". Honestly, I don't care how good the ending is - if the path that leads there is a convoluted, overcrowded reference- and cameo-fest that lasts for dozens of hours with exactly zero satisfying character or story arcs I'm out. I don't care for "the universe". I care for the characters, and Marvel is suffocating them.
MoM script was awful. Just a lazy mess.
@@Crusader2012 i don't think so, Multiverse of Madness definitely way better than the first one.
the pacing is good, they focus more on the Dr.Strange personality and love life more,
we could see dr.Strange character development after the Endgame.
the way they solve the problem is good, and the storytelling actually make you curious as well.
i think a lot of people are just following what they read on the internet instead of
judging the movie by themself, and forming their own opinion.
i think it's a decent movie.
and no, i'm watching it without watching wanda vision first,
yet they already recap what happen in wanda vision series
, so i don't think i miss a thing
@@jensenraylight8011 alright, imma give you my opinion of mom
strange did get character development, and he was not terrible in this movie. the main issue is the other character and the general plot line.
for example - wanda has the most inconsistent powers in the entire franchise. love how she removed blackbolt's mouth but couldn't delete doors in that one scene where strange and his group was running away from her. and don't get me started on how this is supposed to be a horror movie. you can have an mcu movie with horror, but it has to be well thought out and not ruin a character's already established powers. wanda as a villain is a terrible idea because she is legit the most powerful entity (not including entities in the what if show) in the MCU. this means until the final act all the plot can be is just strange running away from wanda, which is exactly what happened. thanos as a bad guy worked because he was still beatable. wanda was not in this movie.
another thing is america. she was ok, but what made the end of mom so terrible is how she could activate her powers upon getting one speech from strange. this doesn't feel like character development. this feels like a rushed way to make her more powerful. she is what i will describe as a boring character.
other things to note -
the illuminate was stupid. bunch of newly introduced characters in a single group is always stupid unless they get developed later. here is the thing - they are all dead. they could have just used multiversal characters that we already know, but because idk at this point we need to introduce inhuman and xmen characters.
the sorcerers using bows and swords
wong helping wanda and giving her powers for multiversal control because she was torturing four of his friends
wanda being redeemed because she destroyed the darkhold --> she killed hundreds and mind controlled another wanda. if she is alive (which she is cause mcu), she deserves death just like the doctor strange that destroyed another universe.
finally, the plot devices
-darkhold
-other darkholds
-book of vishanti
-dreamwalking
i could go on for ages, but that would be boring to read
anyways goodbye
@@negativealt2908 the things that you mention above, all of that seems like a minor things,
it's not enough to label a movie to be the worst movie in MCU
it doesn't break the movie,
the movie itself didn't have pacing issue that make it boring, nor have a huge mistake.
the best parts of the movies still outweight the bad parts.
from the writing standpoint, this one is far better than the first movie.
the movie writing itself is decent, it have good pacing, well balanced amount of action and dialogue,
how they put the plot is all well thought out.
also the performance of dr.Strange and scarlet witch is top notch.
there are a lot of other MCU movies worser than MOM.
also, you can pick a random non mcu movies that released this year, and it will still worser than dr.Strange MOM.
anyone, Just tell me, which parts of the movie are severe enough that could make someone walk out from the movie midway?, or part of the movie that could break the entire movie.
if nobody can, then it's not a bad movie.
@@jensenraylight8011 just because a movie doesn't break the mcu it doesn't mean it is good. sure there are movies worst than mom, but it doesn't mean it is a good movie. character performances were obviously good but there are more aspects to characters other than "good performances"
if you want me to complain about major breaking points, ill start with scarlet witch. her performance in this movie was not terrible to say, but her motivation was beyond stupid. established in the wanda vision series, her children were only magic and they were never real. when the post credit scene rolled in, it does not point to wanda being evil. she was merely shocked at hearing the voices of her children. and yet, in this movie, wanda's motivations to potentially kill many universes are because she wants her children back. this is one of the things that make a movie blank - a super-powerful antagonist with weak motivation. to add on, the whole purpose for wanda vision was to give her character meaning. after what she did to westview, don't you think that she would have learn at least a tiny bit? and to say that the darkhold corrupted her will be like "somehow palpatine returned" - something that is mostly shown off camera just to make the plot work while ignoring the previous marvel works about wanda vision.
I feel this! I have no real idea where we're going at this point. Weve had two multiverse centered films, and a show about the re birth of the multiverse. So far our biggest baddie right now is Kang, but he hasnt touched or had any strong effect on the rest of the plus shows. I still really like Falcon and Winter soldier because it was a self contained story that didnt have to connect to the next bug baddie. Instead it was a conclusion to the falcon and bucky's struggle and their ascension to leadership within the Avengers. The next leader has to be Sam. Hes captain America now, but he hasnt stepped into anything MCU since the series??He hasnt really needed to, but all this supernatural, eternal, and multiverse stuff are effecting and changing the world forever. Theres a fuckin stone celestial just chillin in the sea for the rest of time and noone talks about it??? Like theres all these looming evils that we are being made aware of, but the characters themselves are not being made aware of any of this powerful threats unless their together in a movie or a show. Its a weird time in the MCU right now, thats for sure
Honestly, the thing that annoys me is that Loki was really enjoyable to me and got me hyped for the multiverse concept. However nothing has really seemed to follow up with that. Like yeah, doctor strange features the multiverse but it was so lame. There was only like 2 multiverses shown. It’s crazy to me how an indie movie can do the multiverse concept better than marvel
A. Over saturation. No way Home came out in December, Moon Night came out in March, Dr. Stange came out in May, Ms. Marvel came out this month, and Thor comes out next month.
B. Scale. You mentioned this but didn't tap on how they've been going back and forth between insanely large-scale projects to smaller ones without consistency. Between No Way Home and MoM, Marvel is trying to put out "world-ending" scale movies while also putting out "small-scale" projects like She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, etc. Phase one, two, and three were much more consistent in tone.
C.It's become fan-bait at this point. Not challenging any expectations or pre-conceived notions, just giving fans what they want. This isn't really a bad thing, but things get stale when this is overused. Art is made for risks.
D. The post-pandemic effect. Movie theaters are just not as big anymore and admittedly, marvel movies are made to be seen in theaters. There are noticeable gaps of silence when new characters come in or something exciting happens. At the very least, these are tailored to communal viewings.
E. Finally, the inter-connected complicatedness of the new movies is reaching a peak. You mentioned this but you could feasibly see The Avengers without having watched any previous movie. Requiring people to watch the shows before the movies is a bit of a stretch now.
F. The CGI for their movies are getting worse because of all the movies they have linned up in the VFX house's pipeline. Marvel movies look like crap while the Batman looked beautiful.
I disagree with the theatre thing. No way home was massively successful. Like top 5 all time movie. Theaters are back in full stride
@@ronburgundy3172 The CGI I think kinda depends on the studios working on it and the directors involved. Like with Sam Raimi, you might see more practical effects.
The CGI mostly just varies. Like Far From Home's CGI was superb, some scenes were entirely CGI and you wouldn't know unless shown. Infinity War was big too. End Game as well but then you will never unsee it when you notice the Nano Gauntlet clips in the famous "I am inevitable" scene where Thanos attempts to snap with no success.
Then something like MoM that just came out has some practical effects (cuz Sam Raimi) and the CGI feels more stylish which probably sacrificed its quality a little, but the trade off was worth it because it still looked amazing imo. As for the Shows, it's just a no brainer the CGI will suck cuz they're made on a lower budget. But Loki imo had the best CGI of the shows so far from what I've seen.
I am (or I was) a comic reader, and I don't necessarily mind convolutedness. However, I liked how the MCU's first few years were pretty streamlined. Now we're dragging in the barriers of entry that the comics have for casual readers without many of the characters that were built up through careful characterization throughout the years and various movies. Marvel Studios is hoping that the brand name "Marvel" is strong enough to get you to care about whatever they are releasing, and it will be a successful strategy on a lot of fronts. But if you enjoyed the ride of Phases 1-3 you feel absence of many of the characters you followed and the build-up to the showdown with Thanos over the Infinity Stones.
Also, small rant, but I was really annoyed at Loki in how they brushed aside the power of the Stones. It's such a comic trope; you defeat the great menace, but since you want to continue the story you go back to basics (which can seem boring) and then build up an even scarier threat (which seems disrespectful to the prior developed threat).
I hope Thor: Love and Thunder doesn't go terrible.
You've seen the trailers, right? Terrible CGI and green screens, bad dialogue...its going to have a monumental first week dropoff. People will go week 1, see how bad it is, and basically no one will go after that, a la Lightyear.
@@mfmageiwatch hahaha! go bitch about it. taika watiti literally saved the thor movie franchise from death, so watch the movie before having an opinion.
@@mfmageiwatch it's a marvel movie about an og avenger my guy, even if it's bad it's hitting at least 900M
Gay Thor acknowledges that any women is better at being thor then thor could ever be and all men should acknowledge that too.
Taking bets....only the women can make good decisions.
@@haitiankid9456 wrong, "my guy"
I think the other pitfall Marvel have fallen into is the old comic book crutch of reinventing existing characters to keep a vague sense of continuity.
So far in Phase 4 we have Vision 2, the new Captain America, Hawkeye 2, possibly two new Captain Marvels (depending on what they do with Monica), Black Widow 2, and the likes of She Hulk, and the new Iron Man successor (Riri) still to come as well, and they might even turn Sylvie into another Loki as well, depending on where that goes.
(Unfortunately there will need to be a new Black Panther too, although that's beyond their control, but it still feels like "existing character version 2.0" even when it can't be helped.)
This works better in comics as (a) they have time to breathe and (b) their predecessors can still be around; they're not ageing and leaving the continuity, so there can be much more by way of passing the torch, buddy-ups, etc.
But film audiences, especially mainstream ones, will just start to see these characters as cheap Dollar-store rip off toes like "Arachnid Man" complete with slightly wonky paint-job. I love Florence Pugh to bits, but few people who have been all the way through the MCU from the get-go are going to embrace her as "Black Widow" because the shadow of ScarJo's version will loom large.
Shang-Chi was a good step (albeit they did their usual and threw out all the fun character stuff for a giant CGI mess in the third act), while Eternals (which I actually enjoyed) felt like a mis-step that just didn't land with audiences because there were just too many members thrown in without enough of a distinct personality (unlike, say, the GotG) to really stand up and be counted.
But they need more distinct NEW characters who aren't taking on existing mantles from Phase 1 to now. Blade will hopefully feel fresh, despite being a reboot, and the introduction of Charlie Cox as Daredevil should hopefully help as well as he's got charisma for days in that role. But they really do need a course correct, and perhaps (dare I say it) they should actually think more "cinema" than "comic books" for how they progress?
Yeah, three "Captain Marvels" in one film. Because one of them has to stick with the audience, right?
RIGHT!?
@@guyvizard549 I mean Monica and Khamala are definitely gonna stand up more if they don’t fix Carols arc and character
that's why moon knight was so fresh and exciting despite not on the more successful side of comics. it's a new character, not a new player inheriting a title
@@kaeaedwin7937 Honestly, I haven't watched the Disney Marvel series... It will be interesting to BE that guy who probably only watches the movies and tries to piece things together. Though, I've seen reviews and climactic scenes from most of them. I can see what they're doing from a producer's perspective.
Yeah but what was so enjoyable about the infinity saga was that we went through a big story like it for the first time. But with this new saga, no one wants to go through it again because it feels like a chore and it feels like they're just putting out a bunch of content to get to the ending. Watching phase 4 feels like a slog and some find it unenjoyable, as it does not live up to the hype of the end of the infinity saga. No one wants to go through the whole build up again because it will take so many years to get to a satisfying conclusion....again. That is why lots are now loosing interest in the new content because it will never match up to the quality of the end of the infinity saga. And it also doesn't help that the shows and movies are getting lazier and is pumping out content like a factory, without spending enough time to improve it.
My main problem with the series is that their endings are always.. meh.. or a cliffhanger
Marvel does not know which direction to head towards, couple that with them hiring horrible writers then you get phase 4.
Dr Strange 2 showcases this perfectly, I honestly believe that Sam Raimi's name was placed there for clout and they didn't allow him to add much to the story. Funny thing is that the writer of this movie wrote Loki and he didn't even follow any of the rules that he setup in the show. It's alarming that someone who doesn't notice bad writing(me) can notice it.
Marvel knows where their heading it's just that they haven't announced it to the public like they did with phase 3 back in 2014 at the El Capitan theatre
@@mickeymouse7726 it's not about announcing it to the public, they are just not doing a great job of setting things up. Let me use WandaVision as an example, many say that you need to watch that show in order to understand Dr Strange 2 but after watching WandaVision you will be even more confused as to how Wanda turned into a complete villain and has been messing around with the Multiverse like its nothing.
How did she even locate America Chavez in the first place and find out she has the powers to travel the Multiverse and if your response to all of that is "The Darkhold" then that's just lazy writing. Scarlet Witch should have helped Dr Strange and America Chavez at first and you could have had Sinister Strange trying to steal Chavez's powers.
Throughout Dr Strange 2 we could have seen Wanda's slow descent into madness the more she learned about the Multiverse and Chavez's powers and at the midpoint of the movie she turns into a full on villain and joins Sinister Strange.
@@ardent835 So what you're saying is that a character finding out an important piece of information about a power she wants from an immensely ancient and powerful book of magical knowledge said to hold untold secrets is BAD writing? That's like saying it's bad writing that someone finds out another person's address by looking it up on the internet. It's literally what it's made for.
Also, why are you confused about Wanda becoming a villain after watching Wandavision? It explains her trauma, her need for control, desperation for familial connection (all at the expense for the well-being others) and it even introduces the Darkhold and presents someone who has been corrupted by it. Just because Wanda lets go of Westview doesn't mean that she's all better now. Being as vulnerable as she is whilst also being in the presence of a corrupting influence for over a year, it's no wonder that she's turned.
But beyond that, what's really ruining the discourse of these films is a new breed for cinemasins style reviewers who see the basic facts of the plot as more important that the act of storytelling itself. It's the people who complain about a director's style somehow getting in the way of presenting the events of the narrative in the most efficient way possible and then wondering why all their movies are so bland.
@@Ted_Curtis here's the thing throughout the whole show Wanda was seen reading the Darkhold only once and that was at the very end of the show. Also what Wanda was doing to the people of Westview was clearly wrong but at times it feels like the showrunners just didn't want to commit to the fact that Wanda is a villain, instead they turned her into a anti hero. She even successfully redeems herself by the end without any consequences for her actions. I mean I'm glad that Raimi threw that bs out the window and made her into a complete villain but the show clearly didn't do the smoothest job of getting us there.
Now let's talk about the Darkhold, it's definitely not the first super powerful object in mcu that gives its users untold powers, I can buy the fact that Wanda has learned some new abilities like Dream walking from it but tampering with the multiverse like it's a walk on the beach is clear bs. Wanda would have to spend years just to navigate her way through the multiverse but not only was she able to manage that in such a short period of time, she even found America Chavez who is the only one of her kind and doesn't have any alternate versions of herself. This kind of luck would make even Thanos blush.
Finally don't blame the critics for all the problems, not everyone is out here with their pitchforks trying to burn the mcu. Disney always had problems managing big ips, just look at the Star Wars sequel trilogy, it started out great but they wanted to tell a messy story in the sequel that many fans didn't enjoy so they did a complete 180 with the third film and now the whole trilogy feels lacklustre garbage. Thank God, Kevin Feige had a plan for phase 1-3 but now he just has to deliver as much content for Disney plus whether it makes sense or not.
You keep saying people criticising are the problem but blind fans like you who have their head so far up Disney's rear are not making things better either. You guys are the ones who keep on eating the same turd without question and Disney knows this, which is why we don't getting satisfying movies any more, all we get are lazily made products that set up the next product. Being a fan is not a problem but is it a crime to expect a better movie when you know they have the potential to deliver.
@@Ted_Curtis Wanda was badly written, it's unfortunate because Elizabeth Olsen is a great actress and she performed really well even with mediocre scripts.
It doesn’t matter how good a conclusion is if everyone has left because the journey was terrible.
Phase 4 struggles from the fact that it has no central protagonist/antagonist, no movement towards a overarching narrative (Phase 1 had this by the 2nd movie,) is introducing way too many characters, half of which aren’t popular, and is way too confusing.
It does though, it's just not explicit. Basically Kang and/or Galactus. And Thanos was only established as the 'big bad' through cameos.. it wasn't really established until Infinity Wars...
@@sffc95 Kang was introduced in Loki. Which people DID watch. But didn’t like too much. And likely have forgotten because it was pretty boring and lacked so much focus. They literally made him seem like a TV villain. Essentially pointless.
I hope Secret Wars don't get ruined.
my biggest issue is that how all of the movies seem designed to lead to something else
I realize that's how it's always been, but phase 3's movies were one and done
you could notice references to other events going on, sure, but for all intents and purposes the story began, ended and it was left to the post-credit scene to give us more information on the future
phase 4 movies and shows always feel inconclusive when they "end", because that really ISN'T the conclusion
every different movie and show is just one "episode" to the phase 4 "show" and it gets pretty boring after a while
yeah.. and I guess part of the problem is that, ppl genuinely loved the first characters from the last 3 phases (mostly the og 6 avengers). not that the new characters aren't likeable, it's just that the first ones were like family, in a way that the fans had literally seen and watched them grow, with the viewers growing alongside them with each knew knowledge and informations raised. and their narrative was kept simple; simple/ordinary people, thrust with great responsibility.
the MCU films now however, will drown you with information with too much happening all around them PER SHOW/MOVIE that it'll leave you wondering now how the hell there's gonna be something worst than that in the future.
Two things I do genuinely enjoy about S4 is 1) the focus on the ramifications of the Thanos snap aka The Blip and 2) the character-focused storybuilding in Phase 4, especially in the TV shows. I know how you mentioned that not much happens in Moon Knight but I really enjoyed getting to know him and the other new superhero from that show in-depth, and without the larger story being connected to a bigger plot or the rest of the MCU. It lets them deal with heavier themes, like his mental health, without the pressure of "okay, but also how is he connected to the avengers". Wandavision, Hawkeye and Loki also got me to care a lot more about their titular heroes (Wandavision ESPECIALLY.)
My main issue is when they get too convulated and spend too much time hinting at plots that probably won't get addressed for a long time. I think Doctor Strange 2 was the biggest victim of that, over half of the movie was just exposition to explain all the new characters and universes and Strange's power. It felt like a really long trailer sometimes than a movie. It makes me miss installments like Guardians of the Galaxy, which introduced a whole new world/entire space system and group of characters by simply focusing on the characters & relationships rather than the world / Roman & Thanos first.
I've been an avid comic book reader since 1993 and for over ten years, we've been gifted everything we could ever want in a live action adaptation. Even the "good" comic book content we got back in the late 70s-mid/late 2000s wasn't true to the heart of the medium. They made concessions because of the erroneous belief that audiences wouldn't accept accurate portrayals.
The problem for me (at 46 years old) is that we got it. We got everything we ever wanted. Now that feeling has gone from anticipation to kinda feeling like a chore. We're like kids that always wanted candy and now we're getting too much of it. It's overwhelming.
While there are a handful of phase 4 stuff I’ve really enjoyed I’d say my personal problem with it is that it’s becoming too much too quickly. I feel like if in a few years if I wanted to sit down and do a phase 4 binge, it would definitely be only the movies. The addition of shows (and especially recently shows that I question their purpose) just makes everything so complicated to follow. I am still very hopeful that whatever culmination comes from this makes sense and makes each new addition feel utilized and relevant to the full story. Just really wish the “cinematic” part of the marvel cinematic universe stuck. Cuz it’s becoming too much.
The "Oscar Isaac talking to himself" bit was Marc having character development of accepting Steven and becoming one with him, to learn to coexist with him and to accept Steven as a part of him. it wasn't just oscar isaac talking to himself.
That's when you guess that the CC himself didn't actually pay attention to the show.
Yeah that was literally the best part of the show
@@Mal-go5dl Best part of the show was just after the final credits, something else came on.
yeah exactly i was like "huh" that was def my favorite episodes. oscar isaac's acting is topnotch
No shit Kayn
I'm just kind of done with Marvel films, TV, all of it, really. The Infinity Saga is incredible, truly a feat in cinema history. The individual characters and their respective projects built up not only them, but then the OG Avengers, the Guardians, and the extended Avengers. The villains of each project were mostly one-off, but some of them served a mysterious and intimidating higher power, perfectly setting up such an effective and memorable villain with just a few scenes prior to Infinity War and Endgame.
With Phase 4, the individual characters are just not as great. Their projects aren't building up to any teams, and there's no primary villain as a throughline. Phase 4 is also keeping some holdovers from the Infinity Saga, which I actually think hurts it more than helps it. And I've heard about the idea of Secret Wars, and I don't particularly care. When I heard that things in Phases 1-3 were leading to Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame, I was totally on board because I was so invested. With Phase 4 so scattered and purposeless, it's hard to be invested in what it's all leading to.
EDIT: I think the concept of the multiverse is almost the culprit in all of this! It's just too much to narrow in on and find the focus that Phase 4 should have.
My biggest problem is the sheer amount of information. In the past, it took marvel 3 phases to explain and show the affect of the infinity stones. This created a universe where you could follow it completely by going to the cinema a couple times a year. Phase 4 has tried to explain and act on the multiverse (arguably more complicated than the infinity stone storyline) in 1 phase. This forced it to catch up to a lot of the characters in 3 Disney+ series'. These series are not only bulky but overextended, for me trying to watch Wandavision felt like a chore because what should have been a short introduction lasted 2 whole episodes. Loki and Falcon+Winter Soldier were better but at points still felt like you were forcing yourself to watch it. Marvel could have released these series over the course of a year or 2, allowing for phase 4 to explain the multiverse and allow for the fanbase to enjoy the storyline; then use Phase 5 to conclude the multiverse story.
In the end Marvel thought that its entire fanbase was going to spend lockdown watching hours of content every week and realistically a majority struggled to even finish the series' before films started to release. Quality over Quantity Marvel.
I've pretty much been in the loop watching all the TV shows on Disney+ as well as the new films and my issue isn't with the pacing or lack of momentum. My issue is with how they are treating their characters. The new Doctor Strange movie introduced America Chavez, but did a terrible job at it. Other than the one scene where we get the flashback about her accidentally using her powers and losing her mothers, they don't really give her much character development. She's more of a MacGuffin than anything. Strange himself didn't get much character development either, going through many of the same beats as his first filim.
And making Wanda the villain seemed very unfair to her character and the journey she went on in WandaVision as well. Yes, we saw her being somewhat of a villain in that show, but also learning to let go and move on. It had a hopeful ending that left me rooting for her to find new happiness in the future, not to see her devolve into a complete psycho for no apparent reason.
Those are just examples from that film, but there have been other instances of this as well.
We might agree on some points here.. there's actually no issue with all the stories not connecting because all the movies should be standalone so I don't have an issue with all the stories.. they will link up eventually and even though I get the Dark Strange 2 issue with Wander being iffy.. it was still told well enough for a new comer to understand...
I think it's too early to tell..we just have high expectations.
Oh you're right about America Chavez too..that wasn't done well, but I think she might make an appearance in other movies and maybe tv shows.. so there will be some more development there, same way Captain America Civil War had Black Panther and other heroes etc etc
The best episode of Moon Knight was Episode 5. It might be the best episode of any Marvel show so far. The best episode was not in the middle of the series, but the second to last.
They also said that there were “3 episodes of Oscar Isaac talking to himself” after that, which is … not true. He dies in the 4th episode (their favorite), we delve into his memories and soul in the 5th episode (objectively the best), and it all wraps up in the 6th.
Then again, they also opened by describing the Disney+ shows as having “10 or so episodes,” so clearly the fine folks writing for this channel don’t do “math” that well. (With the exception of 9 episodes for WandaVision, every MCU show on Disney+ has consisted of 6 episodes per season.)
I agree with the sentiment. I was certainly anticipating building the groundwork for the eventual conclusion. But it’s just the concentration that I think is getting to people.
While the shows are great, they keep expanding and expanding and expanding. On top of that it’s a much more stringent commitment to make to make sure you aren’t lost when new films come out or references are made.
A 2 hour film is easy to sit through, ten hours is basically a chore.
And I say this as a casual MCU fan since day one. For the ones who want to get into it now, and those who really only watch just to watch, you’re asking for a lot. And that all leads to movies feeling bloated or confusing because now directors have to find their own style so they don’t seem boring, but also have to stick to the MCU formula but ALSO make it digestible enough so everyone can understand who hasn’t been following along consistently.
Safe to say that even the strongest MCU fans are getting fatigued. My best friend being one of them, I told him point blank this was going to happen and he didn’t believe me. As soon as Ms Marvel comes out… “it’s a LOT to keep up with.”
Marvel and Disney can learn right now that they should probably pull back just a bit and spoon feed the fan base so that everyone is on a more levelled field in understanding the overarching story. I think some of it may be due to the pandemic, but nevertheless.
However knowing corporations, they only think in the short term. So if they keep coming out in this pace and this fashion it will definitely hurt the MCU in the long run.
A story that is clunky and disjointed to set up for only a conclusion isn't good. It doesn't matter what it's obviously building to. The building blocks need to actually be good, be whole in and of themselves, and be coherent. I would argue that a lot of the projects are not hitting any of that or they're missing 2/3. Why would I be interested in secret wars when the characters in them are flat and lifeless with no connections to each other? On top of that the movies and shows in the past few years have not led me to believe they have the ability to handle secret wars in an emotionally impactful way with the building blocks they have.
Iron Man dying in Endgame was impactful because he had a narrative arc in his own movies and the movies he appeared in, as did almost every other major character. THAT is missing. There is no emotional throughline or emotional core character and it's already been SO MANY projects. Where is the excitement supposed to come from, cameos? Is that really it?
YES!
The problem with phase four is that the characters are just vessels for the plot. They aren't motivated by human emotion they are motivated by their characterization. All I see is a cardboard cut out with some adjectives that are guided along a railroad. Not characters making decisions and those decisions having consequences later in the story. The strength of Iron man and Captain America in phases 1-3 was we got to know them and their principles in their solo outings and we saw how those principles clashed in their crossovers. The best part about it was that both were right and we felt conflicted as an audience about who we should root for in civil war. Then when Infinity war rolled around we saw how the rift between them in Civil War proved fatal for the entire universe. Characters creating cause and effect on a universal scale makes a story impactful.
The more recent MCU properties are bland and devoid of character, not to mention the titular cardboard cutouts are always overshadowed by their newer line of cardboard cut out sidecharacters.
I don’t think the problem is that we all want to rush to the end. My problem is over-saturation. Im saying take your time. Secret wars might end up being the best movie ever but it won’t make the borefests the phase has been any better
I went to see Multiverse Of Madness without seeing wandavision, and, while I still enjoyed it, had no idea how Wanda got to that position
Don't worry. They half assed her villian arc in the TV show.
Same lol. I watched the movie on Disney Plus because I couldn't care about seeing it in cinemas and it was pretty alright, but I don't know what made Wanda act like that at all. And I don't feel like watching a whole TV show to find out
There’s nothing to understand where she ended up in the movie was completely different from the show. The kids got way more development in the show but they were just in the movie. It’s actually probably worse if you watch the show because the movie doesn’t address anything in it.
Even if you did watched the TV show they basically did a 180 of Wanda accepting the loss and processing grief to becoming an unhinged monster. I wish the TV show or the movie really hammered home how corrupting the Darkhold in the start of the movie. Like seeing a corrupted Dr.Strange full on evil instead of Defender Strange just because he used the Darkhold. Then if you didn't watch any TV show you'd be like oh yeah well Wanda is corrupted now and she's a witch that almost killed Thanos.
@@brace4impact258 we see her grief manifest in the show then they show her becoming corrupted by the darkhold and going completely unhinged in the movie. Not sure how you don't think that's a clear character progression.
Without debating how good individual installments or trilogies were, I think Star Wars has the right idea in terms of mixed-media *structure:* The movies show the biggest events in the universe and the most impactful paradigm shifts, creating a tentpole for an era of 20-30 in-universe years, which then has the gaps and detail work filled in later by extended media. But with the MCU, I don't feel like there's any sense of prioritization any more. ANY particular movie or show might be a big deal, or not. We can't even tell. Which leads to hype burnout.
Disney is changing that structure for star wars as well. We got major developments from the main arch literally hidden in mandalorian and book of boba fett
@@catc2252 do these big developments really matter to the overarching plot of the films though? I haven't watched any of the shows minus Clone Wars, and the movies make perfect sense to me. I know it's hard to compare set trilogies compared to what the MCU is doing, but the films should absolutely be the primary focus as that's what most casual fans want to see. The shows should always be separate stories imo.
@@MrFusion I completely agree movies should be the center of the story and series should explore side tales. But Disney doesn't seem to agree with us. Btw, if I undestood correctly, you haven't watched mandalorian nor book of boba fett and OMG you are in for a treat, I almost envy you, please watch! 😆
@@catc2252 unfortunately I've had both spoiled, although it probably won't hurt the experience. Obi wan I know nothing about, just haven't really had the time to watch it.
@@MrFusion I believe you will enjoy mando and boba even after spoilers. I didn't enjoy obi wan series though.
I remember when people were getting a bit sick of the MCU around Infinity/Endgame because there were 3 movies a year qq
Now we're at a point where we are getting 4 movies and 5 tv shows every single year. That's bad enough on its own but the fact that most of them look and feel very similar is what really bothers me.
The lack of creative freedom that directors have is one of the worst things about the MCU, and very few movies aren't effected by this (Iron Man 3, Thor Ragnarok, GOTG, etc) but the fact that all of these movies and TV shows both look and feel so similar (direction, plot, comedy, etc) just makes the experience even more dull
3 movies a year was tedious. 4 movies and 5 tv shows ons 1 year is just ridiculous at this point...
It's true, I love superheroes and would try to get to the theaters as early as possible with every movie of the first few phases, but I noticed a growing apathy as the movies just kept. on. coming. I delayed seeing Black Panther in theaters, I only saw Ragnarok because my students took a class field trip to the theaters, and I skipped Captain Marvel entirely because I just couldn't muster up the energy to care. Infinity War and Endgame were such a satisfying ending and were such dopamine/adrenaline rushes that it's easy to forget that I was limping to get there.
Moon Knight and Shang Chi were good, more than some of the past phases entries. But phase 4 is not as good as Phase 1 was with setting up things. There is no Nick Fury tying up to protect the earth, and moreover there is no grand villian since they don't know who the main villian is going to be. They are setting Multiverse, Time Travelers, Secret Wars, Egyptians dieties and Clones in just one phase and all of them in series that half the general public watch
Edit: I forgot to include Celestials as villians since Eternals was really forgettable lol
I mean, So many World Ending scenarios have already happened in Phase 4.
In Phase 1, You don’t see Obadiah Stane, Extermis or Hydra wanting to destroy the world but rather to control it.
I feel like the issue with the speed of things compared to the other phases is that they’re trying to catch up with the MCU. All the movies previously took place in the year they were released (more or less). Because of the time skip in endgame the MCU is now in 2023. That’s why I think almost all of phase 4 is taking place at the same time and they can’t progress the story much
Yeah they're essentially just waiting for their films to end up in the same time as us, well, 2022 now, but Endgame was 2023 in-universe and still hasn't "happened" for us yet, even some of their films have extended the timeline to 2024 (although chronology has essentially gone to shit anyway bc it's all so vague)
I agree that it’s very convoluted. I used to be able to take my parents to a marvel film and they would enjoy it without knowing too much about comics or superheroes in general. Now I find myself explaining everything to them and they don’t seem to be enjoying the newer films as much.
watching the online content created listing off stuff about movies pretty much clued me in on enough. might watch all of it some day
Doctor Strange 2 was less of a sequel to Doctor Strange and more of a follow-up to WandaVision, and that's a problem.
People expect more of a Doctor Strange story when they see a movie titled "Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness," and it should've been a slam dunk with Sam Raimi. But it seems the movie had too much studio meddling.
Overall, the Marvel films were standalone and you could usually see any of the movies by themselves and get by just fine. At this point they're running out of their A-listers and they're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. Ms. Marvel won't stick, and neither will She-Hulk, and the other series they've done are middling at best, mostly due to the poor handling of characters and writing quality. People are lukewarm on Thor: Love and Thunder, and the only thing on the horizon I see excitement for is the last Guardians movie. No word on the next Spider-Man, but that would get eyes.
I'm not getting Disney+ to keep up with the movies and none of the movies out now and nearly all in the near future are of no interest to me. They've lost me as a customer with their hijinks and bait-and-switches.
I like that they’re slowing down, introducing new characters, and attempting to tell different, interesting stories. I just wish they wouldn’t consistently screw up the pacing - and therefore finales - of their shows.
Most of Marvel’s Disney+ shows have had two great episodes with quick pacing and compelling setups, followed by a slow third episode that’s mostly treading water, followed by a strong fourth and fifth episodes that take their time with character development, but by the finale they’ve run out of time and have to quickly wrap up a complex story with multiple characters and subplots while serving a disjointed action sequence that feels restrained by time and budget.
Tl;dr: I feel like Marvel is trying to make TV shows but either don’t know how or don’t want to write them like TV shows.
You literally hit the nail on the head with the Marvel Disney+ show format (and this is coming from someone who’s enjoyed the shows so far). I feel like if they’d just give their shows one or two more episodes a lot of these problems would be solved.
It's so frustrating bc of the three MCU shows I've watched (WandaVision, Loki, Moon Knight), the first few episodes were far and away my favourite things to come out of the MCU (maybe excepting the Guardians films). But all three shows felt weirdly slapped together and rushed at the end. Disney literally has all the money. Why can't they give their shows the number of episodes needed to tell a compelling story? 😩
They are NOT slowing down, there's a lot of multiversal stuff in just phase 4
@@sort6726 They’ll definitely ramp back up. But slowing down after the Infinity Saga is a good thing. Now is the time to introduce new characters and develop old ones. The big Avengers crossover events will have their time.
I think the problem also is that these shows are also serving as introductions as well as stepping stones for these new characters, so they have to introduce a lot of things before they come to play in a future film, but also send the characters on a meaningful journey in the show.
I get the feeling that at some point we'll get an awesome fight scene in front of that giant Celestial body on Earth. Theres no way they'd have such an awesome backdrop and not use it for a future film.
There is something I don't understand the "if you didn't watch wandavision, you will not understand doctor strange 2", the fan of the mcu know about the serie wandavision. So even if they didn't watch the serie, they can understand the movie and will understand that the part with wanda having kid is from the serie. And the people who just went watch doctor strange 2 just for fun will know that marvel have a lot of projects, and will know the things that they didn't understand will be from the movie/serie they didn't see.
IDK how to explain it in-depth but Shang Chi is my favorite thing in Phase 4 because it's actually standalone and learns a lot from the MCU highs and lows
if it wanst ruined by dumb jokes 2 seconds before a serious scene
@@FULANODETAL ngl I wasn't a big fan of Katy so it definitely bugged down the movie for me.
@@gig7932 example when Shang was telling the harsh training but its interrumped by a salad menú..and no more harsh training...
I found strange than mcu sanfrancisco doesnt got any hobos.
No no no, I agree most of the shows have been mid to bad but I will not take any Moonknight slander
I'm a big Marvel fan & this gave me a better understanding of Marvel Studios reason for the slow pacing of phase 4. It may not be perfect in execution but I've been given a reason to be patient for the pay off. Definitely giving this channel a Sub!
I think there's a misconception of this being the back to basics phase in the first place. For that to be a thing in full, they would have had to actually finish the portions of the story belonging to those characters prior whom the new ones the Marvel Cinematic Universe is being passed to... which, they didn't really do for all the titles still going involved.
The major issue as a result to me; is that, because they didn't expand the Infinity pair to a trio or even quad fo movies to properly do so: (they gave definitive endings and story closing for Steve, Tony and Thanos for instance, but left off or just cut short quite a few others who were most affected by Thanos especially: including the Guardians and yes Loki) and as a result they're stuck till transitioning phase. Which, sadly the majority of their current writers and directors are handling VERY badly.
Mostly and especially in the realm of doing just that. SMNWH while okay, depended heavily on both a whole other franchise's actors and extra hype, as well as forgetting the main plot device was in fact the entire and openly stated reason Masters of the Mystic Arts existed .. to watch for, stop and or fight threats from outside of their home universe/plane from elsewhere in the multiverse (like Dormammu.) It had great moments, but overall the story was inconsistent at best, and ignoring that basic fact of existence for MotMA into account.. not very well thought out even after cuts where it had been moved up.
There's also this ongoing thing where, in those transitioning pieces (especially Loki and at current She-Hulk) the writing for the new characters is so weak that sadly; the trend has been to continue that trend by not being familiar with what content they do need, and rather than write individuals with strong and endearing or at least moderately empathetic character that stands on their own? Using the previous character as a punching bag to try and make them LOOK that way, while glossing over the major and in some cases glaring flaws in both that and the newer character coming in.
Ms. Marvel and maybe WandaVision are, so far; the only content titles to do this moderately right: respecting the characters as they and their stories have been established in the Universe as a part fo that changing of the guard: rather than the current trend having to bash if not outright trash the old characters and those hard earned stories TO upraise them.
Marvel: Just learn the 300 page backstory of this caracture
Me: No, I dont think I will