The Convenient Problem With Kang The Conqueror
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2023
- Kang the Conqueror or Kang the Disappointment? After seeing Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania it's hard to tell which side Kang will land on. So far the biggest threat to the Marvel Multiverse hasn't quite lived up to expectations. But how did Marvel go from one of the most compelling villains in history, Thanos, to what seems to be a very messy origin for the newest MCU Big Bad?
#kangtheconquerer #kang #nerdstalgic
Sources:
ScreenRant - MCU Phase 5 Has A Kang Problem to Overcome
screenrant.com/mcu-phase-5-ka...
IGN- Kang is the Right Villain for the MCU but the Wrong Villain for Quantumania
www.ign.com/articles/kang-is-...
Forbes - ‘Quantumania’s’ Disappointing Depictions of Kang
www.forbes.com/sites/danidipl...
CBR - Kang Runs Into The Same Problems As Ultron
www.cbr.com/ant-man-wasp-quan... 
Развлечения
With Kang, there’s no sense of finality. Because you can always say, “oh there’s just another variant that can come back” or whatever. This lessens the stakes and makes the actions of the heroes seem almost pointless.
a good villain doesnt have to have finality. a good villain NEEDS good writing. thanos was written really well, thats why he worked. even w kang they can write him in such a way that makes his threat seem imminent no matter how many variants they kill. instead of finality, his threat should have a sense of infinity. make it seem like the battle will never end, that the unending fight w kang will be the fate of our heroes. they will tire out. they will age out. they will die. kang will win. thats what will make him a PROPER threat.
@@satanhimself4773very well said
Bro that's how it was in comics like coming back despite killing him most of the time. What do you expect MCU to do change the base material. That will get comic fans angry. Stop commenting this bullshit
This sense of pointlessness is tied to the idea of a multiverse. How can there be stakes when you can always handwave it to another universe?
@@satanhimself4773 That’s kind of the point I was trying to make. We’ve seen him appear in 2 projects so far, and in my opinion, he hasn’t been written well. The results of a character like Kang being poorly written are what I outlined in my original comment.
This also ties into one of the big issues with multiverses, that they can water down stakes if not used sparingly.
This video just reminded me that i need to pick up my Thanos lunchbox.
Woop! Thats exactly what I have been thinking all along. The concept of multiverses always felt like a thing of convenience. They can shuffle around the realities if they turn out to unfavorable to the franchise. Until the franchise becomes a victim of this application of convenience, because nothing really matters...
I'm very VERY curious how the new GotG handles the Gamora issue. I see it as a canary in the coal mine. Will they use timey-wimey bullshit to hit the reset button and get her back together with Peter by the end, like Infinity War never happened? If so, that does not bode well for the rest of Phase 5-6. But hopefully, they'll do something smarter instead.
The issue with Multiverse of madness. Everyone survived Thanos. Its not special. Our MCU is just one of many with the same plot
Like death. What’s the point of death if there’s another version of that character they will just bring to the screen
Current MCU also lacks a hero/villain dynamic. Tony’s PTSD and fear of an alien invasion kept Thanos relevant even before Infinity War. When Tony says, “Thanos has been in my head for 6 years” (real time), it ties all his actions in every phase together. Panic attacks, making Ultron, the Sokovia Accords, etc. The audience in real life is waiting for Thanos, and Tony Stark our main character is dreading it.
Dont repeat it
Yes
and now that we don't have a main character the "franchise" is pointless
i don't think Spider Man will really deal with Kang
@Mepphy99 Not if they follow Kang through Loki. Loki found out about him first, and understands the threat. Same like Tony and Thanos
@@Sienisota Loki as MC ?
considering he Should be evil, putting him as MC could be interesting
I personally still think it was odd that Kang wasn't in Multiverse of Madness - not necessarily because the story called for him to be there but based on the title I had expected him to have at least some kind of presence in the movie, even if it was just in a post-credits scene, similar to Thanos in the first Avengers movie.
Sort of because Multiverse of madness felt half baked.
If I recall that whole movie was supposed to be about something else lol. They went through several rewrites and here we are.
I read somewhere that the original villain was supposed be nightmare.
@@wizardgaming6759 I thought they were hiding who he was acted by so I was hoping to get Tim Curry or someone like him to be Nightmare.
I think the point Raimi replaced Derrickson is where it changed. From something I read years ago, Derrickson's plan was for Nightmare to be the sequel's villain, and for Mordo to return in a third film as per post credits in Doctor Strange 1
I wouldn’t say the criticism of “he doesn’t seem as powerful because he’s shown being killed” applies to Kang in Loki, since in that case he’s clearly shown to be allowing this to happen, in fact his death in that scene is very intimidating, because his death allows worse variants of him to be unleashed. However it is a massive problem in Quantumania, because a supposed big bad level threat is beaten by a C tier hero and that’s embarrassing
Did u watch the end credit? I think thats the ooint of kang. Killing 1 is easy but hundreds? Even after that the next hundred will just pop out. How to stop things like that
Yeah idk why people make it a big deal that he was defeated in Loki. It’s kind of annoying bc it’s like they didn’t pay attention. He allowed himself to be killed, plus people tend to forget that he doesn’t have any powers it’s his tech that makes him powerful
@@jojoenathan It is the problem though. because a single Kang is supposed to be a Galactic conquerer. He fails at conquering some ants.
@@jojoenathan like others said elsewhere in this thread, in that case it could have been done much much better executed. They could for example have 2 kangs appear in the film, 1 kang being weak and other more strong, and maybe the weak kang could be a hero with antman and sacrifice himself to defeat stronger kang (it would still be better if antman or antman senior or someone died too). that version would show the stakes much better, actually showing that : there are multiple kang with multiple levels of power, and even better there is the unknown moral quality of when a kang shows up, the avengers cant know if he is a hero or vilain or neutral. the film we actually got does a bad job at any line of story it set out to do.
@@jojoenathan ever played dynasty warriors, your wading through thousands of easy kill npcs, thats the point of that game
And I love how they kept Thanos consistent, Thanos’ goal wasn’t just to mercilessly kill people. In infinity war he spared the avengers lives several times unless it was necessary (gamora & vision) and he wasn’t just evil for the sake of being evil. Kang just seems evil because and I still don’t understand his plan or why he did anything lol
At the same time though, we didn’t know he was more than a remorseless killer before Infinity War. We knew he conquered planets, committed genocide on those planets, and tortured his subjects despite seeming them his children. Very much unsympathetic before Infinity War established his motivations.
@@Gemnist98Agreed, Thanos was shown as brutal until Infinity War and even in Endgame, 2014 Thanos discovers his plan worked but the people fought back after, so he immediately decided to just wipe them all out and start over. Kang has some excellent runs in the comics and I can't wait to see more of what they do with him going forward (with or without Jonathan Majors).
kang the conqueror is more like a monarch, he conquer multiverse and destroy what he can't control to make his own sacred timeline while he who remains play god role make some "god's plan" to make his own sacred timeline.
Yup, most of us nod our head when Thanos explained the strong reason why he need to balancing, why he need to wiped out half of population.
Cause we knew, he was right.😁. And that's also how this villain character got many sympathy from the audience.
@@Gemnist98 o yea a hundred percent. I think marvel did a great job on separating the two by giving him a clear motivation
They are making Kang very pedestrian. He doesn't feel as threatening, even though Majors is playing the role very well with the material he has.
He has the exact same dumb face during the whole movie.
Redemption Arc Maybe For Marvel?
*EXACTLY!!!!!!!*
“Very pedestrian”😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 no lie doe
I 100% agree that Majors is nailing every step he takes, I just wish he had better material to work with.
I feel that the MCU should’ve focused on 5 versions of Kang from the comics each being the same guy but at different ages ( Iron Lad, Rama Tut, Scarlet Centurion, Kang and Immortus) and have them be established as the main impactful ones during phases 4 and 5 through projects like Loki, multiverse of madness, Quantumania, Young Avengers etc then doing the big council of kangs during Phase 6.
That's actually part of the whole problem with these late phases: every movie was a little adventure in itself, but there was always something looming in the back, something that made you feel there was an impending doom. And when it finally happened it was fantastic. Nowadays everything feels disjointed and disconnected, with no sense of what used to be special and everything feels forced to go into a direction and that destination seems to be unknown even to them.
Every movie didn’t have that !Thats like the biggest and dumbest comment ever !LOL
lol that is the same issue the mcu had since phase 1, how people dont realize it is mind blowing. All the flaws we have seen in the latest mcu movies have always been there, they just got worse now
If anything i have the exact opposite problem. They are trying too hard to connect everything without succeeding in making a self-contained adventure of the characters
Personally they should have allowed a cooling period after Thanos. Like 3 years
Especially that noone ever mentioned that huge Hand and head growing out of the planet after Eternals. Like, what the fuck?
For a movie that featuring the big bad of the multiverse saga, his appearance in Quantumania is almost not threatening. All of the heroic characters survived the journey. At the end of the movie, it implies that Scott felt like something is wrong but then he brushed it off very quickly.
Are you kidding? One of the Avengers died in Quantumania. M.O.D.O.K
It was a metaphor for the MCU executives brushing off the fact that there have been some major problems with their movies lately
Honestly, I saw the way that Scott kinda brushed off the eventuality that there are more versions of Kang is showing how everyone is gonna underestimate the more serious and more powerful Kang the Conqueror. Don't forget, Immortus, Rama-Tut, and Centurion all agreed that the Quantumania Kang was a rogue element, an embarrassment, and not a TRUE Kang.
So true. I really thought Kang was gonna at least kill the old Ant man. Like give him something
Not only that but this is the biggest baddest kang that all the other kangs are afraid of and needed to all work together to exile. And he lost to ants. Like my god what a poor decision why not use any of the other countless low power level kangs to lose to Ant-man?
The main problems to me are
-His powers are not clear at all, in quantunmania he seems to be in total control of his surroundings with telecinesis untill he is not. He apparently has some sort of control over time that's never explained
-The fact that there are infinite variants in infinite universes makes fighting him simoly pointless, there are basically no stakes since defeating him will only lead to other kangs showing up. It also reduces the investment in the character since it's a different person every time
Um, buddy, the fact that he is infinite is the actually issue, they the stakes are higher than Thanos because it is the entirety of the multiverse. They have to beat Kang who knows how many times.
@@morriganfox9475but isn't kinda boring wach the same villain every time, is juts pointless
@@morriganfox9475 The premise is that there is an infinite amount of universes. Therefore there is an infinite amount of Kang. Right.
How the fuck are the good guys supposed to win without a bullshit excuse ? And how are we supposed to care about Kang if he has so many version ar the same time on screen ? Not all of them will be interesting, statistically it is impossible.
Thanos left a huge impression because we could delve into his history, his mind. The movie takes the time to make us understand him. While Kang represent the new MCU perfectly though: quantity over quality.
Infinite amount of vilains and not even able to reach the impact of one purple boy. And I'm not even pointing at the lack of foreshadowing for Kang compared to Thanos. Loki was all we got.
@@erosthedark999make me wish for a Wanda House of M spell: "No more Kang" zzz
@@morriganfox9475 the stakes may technically be higher but the investment isn't. Functionally what is the difference between the earth being destroyed, the universe or the multiverse? Everyone dies not matter what. Because everyone dies, the stakes aren't actually that high because everyone isn't going to die. That is why Infinty War was much easier to invest in than Endgame. Half the universe was on the line, that let the writers have Thanos win because not everyone dies if he wins.
Kang was a letdown in Quantumania, but he was awesome and intimidating in Loki. He never "lost" in Loki. He gave Loki and Sylvie freedom of choice and showed no resistance to whatever they chose. Sylvie killed him, but in doing so, released a whole lot of other variants of him that are worse than he was.
If they are going to stick to this idea that Kangs are easy to kill. They need to have a version of Kang and almost every single film leading up to Kang Dynasty. And have each hero fight against him with varying success. That way in Kang dynasty when they’re confronted with the council of Kangs it feels like an overwhelming force.
good point
If things are going the way I’m thinking. That’s exactly what they’re going to do. Kang will be his own generals. He will be his own henchman. And he will be the big bad. Every Kang we see till the final movies will just be cannon fodder for the real Endgame Kang. His super power isn’t that he’s always dying. It’s that every time you kill one there’s another to take his place. A never ending fight against the same bad guy over and over and over again till you can’t take it anymore.
@@julianmelchor9113 it sounds like a worse version of Dormamu I've come to bargain
A council of Kangs? Or.....a Kangcil?
@@thomasb7347 except there's no Infinity stone to make it interesting
Disney's Kang loves to talk how powerful and clever he is, but not only they don't show him being bad, but he also gets beaten every show he's in.
Only in MCU he could have lost to Ant-Man smh They're fucking up one of the best Marvel villains so bad it's not funny anymore.
@@boccobadz He was great in Avengers Earth's mightiest heroes.
@@boccobadzhe whooped ant mans ass. Pim beat him with the ants lol
@@boccobadz Ant-Man once bodied Dr Doom because he killed his daughter, if anything this is accurate. People are just not ready to accept that Ant-Man is legit one of the most broken heroes in the setting because he is silly
@@applestuff6196man every single character in the comics have a moment where they become too OP. there are millions of comics with so many stories, i could say that donald trump bought some heavenly power at an auction and managed to beat the living tribunal with it, and it could actually have been written in some comic lmao. the movie was lame, and a multiversal level threat like kang should never be beat by an author, a Karen and a high-schooler who just served time at a juvenile center. an absolute embarrassment and dont even get me started about how weak Kang’s soldiers are. why cant they handcuff the person that they apprehend. i remember atleast two instances where the guards got beat by the person they were prosecuting
Honestly I really hope the next overarching saga takes things back to a single universe. Having infinite variations of our favorite characters out there makes it feel like there aren’t genuine consequences.
That was kinda the point of recent secret wars. Taking the best parts of Ultimate and normal universes.
@@roxtechsnobody is watching those disney+ series mate😂 i was a hardcore mcu fan, but after endgame its too much to catch up with. mcu should’ve learnt to grow with its audience. it was at its peak when we are kids and teenagers or young adults, but now its hard to keep up with shows like she-hulk and ms marvel. neither have i watched hawkeye and moon knight and i hope neither of these 4 had any relation to the main story. marvel is losing its audience and everyone knows that. they need to grow with us and make the universe grimmer. thanos killed gamora but they just got another one from a different universe, and looking back you dont even feel sad that the main universe gamora died. that death felt so sad for one year until endgame. loki got a show after he died, so even that death is shallow. black widow got a movie after she died, and honestly i had forgotten about it. at the end of that movie, when her sister visited the grave, i was caught off guard lmao.
Bro Says he's a hardcore fan but doesn't watch moon knight which is fucking peak. What a fucking joke. You don't even know what hardcore fans even means GTFO fucking loser.@@arishemthejudge6780
@@arishemthejudge6780 nahh u just hating
@@craigbrown5494nahh you new gen MCUfans are delusional
I liked He Who Remains. He didn’t feel like a being trying to live on. He felt like a pretty interesting character.
I felt like the “he who remains” thing worked because he wasn’t fighting, he said “you can kill me but you’ll regret it” and that bluff gets called but turns out it may be true. It didn’t even seem like it was actually a loss the way the show set it up. Whether he was a weary guardian worn down by time and isolation or setting about events beyond Loki and Sylvie’s understanding, I really don’t feel like anyone seemed to have defeated HWR Kang, rather they gave him what he wanted.
The Ant-Man Kang who by all accounts was fighting in earnest but still lost to one of the weakest avengers and some ants really undermined any threat the character posed. The only good Kang scenes in the whole movie were the ones with Janet. If they had left it there and kept him as a looming presence who escaped back into the multiverse, I feel like they would’ve added to the character instead of making him look like a joke
They should of made it so kang was too advanced and undefeatable in ant man. Where ant man was more running from kang then trying to fight. Show kangs true power and wit but also show that there’s even more powerful versions than him. Maybe like more sinister kangs kill the ant man kang to allow ant man’s escape. I wish marvel films where more r rated so they can show how vicious some villains can be
I’m still convinced that the Kang we met in Quantumania is The Exiled, not The Conqueror. After all, how can he be the one who rules the Time Variance Authority if Loki Season 2 if he was also the one imprisoned in the Quantum Realm?
That’s the issue of using Kang: yes, this one is gone. But he’s the failure, the one who was defeated by the Council of Kangs, not the one who will pose the true multiversal threat.
The Conqueror and The Exile are the same person, and he rules the TVA in season 2 because that takes place after the events of Quantumania in his timeline. Time-travel means a character can be in multiple places at once, after all.
The Exile is destined to become The Conqueror- that's why he was exiled in the first place and that's what he spent the whole movie planning to do once he escaped.
I think you're looking too much in to in, i would say it all comes down to poor story telling from people that don't know what they're doing and honest don't care about the material.
I assumed we're seeing Kang at his lowest versions. He Who Remains had to hit in exile and watch the timeline just to make sure his variants stayed locked away, Kang in Quantumania was similarly exiled and likely wasn't operating on all cylinders, but Kang is infinite and there are always others, and if this Kang posed a threat from the QUantum Realm, I think we're being left to imagine the Kangs we have yet to meet
Plus, this Kang was literally exiled to the Quantum realm lol
Translation: everyone is confused and can't figure out a way shit makes sense because the writers couldn't either
"He who remains" was pretty amazing imo. It introduced this huge threat while still keeping a mystery, because we had 1 Loki that belived him and one that did not, so it could go either way as this new phase continued, I even thought that the idea of having multiple Kangs was a fine way to have him around because, imo, Thano barely doing anything for most of his MCU existence was actually not a good move, I stopped caring about him up until I watched infinity war, and if he wasnt as well written as he was I would've continued to not care. But like you said, the way he was handled in Quantum mania was....embarassing
Did you like when Loki established that the entire MCU leading up to it had no free will
@@littleoldmanboyIt’s not that the MCU didn’t have free will at all. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many divergent timelines. It’s just that those timelines where their decisions were different ended up being deleted.
Yeah, the Kang from Loki was actually really good imo. He let himself die because he knew another Kang would take his place and his last words were even "See you soon"
The ants are actually the ants from the farm we see that Cassie has been working on with her grandfather in the first act of the film. There's actually a shot of that pane of glass with the ants in them as they are sucked into the quantum realm that you use in your clip. That's the ant farm. It's a very quick setup and a very quick frame where you can see it, but it is supposedly those specific ants.
But who is able to remember the beginning of the movie? /s
We don't actually need more Kang but we undoubtedly need impactful Kang.
And we need more cow bell
At some point, Kang will win big time and really up the stakes.
@@evertonporter7887 you can’t just put your main bad buy in movie and tv show to be always defeated… people will loss hype if he always lose…
@@greedyyawgoo5635dawg if that was true literally no villain ever would be popular do you hear yourself
@@greedyyawgoo5635and Kang said it himself of course he’s lost but you beat Kang one way you won’t beat him that way again
The main issue is we have the schedule. We KNOW because of the titles of movie titles st we know Kang should be this all powerful evil. I think if we just thought he was some generic one off villian and keeps showing up and more powerful it would feel more natural. It's just us wanting to see the end we aren't enjoying the development of the story
Good point but the movie goes against this idea with him destroying worlds and such.
This has long been one of my main issues with the MCU. We know what movies are coming. We know an actor is signed on to do say eight movies. So when they tease that a character might die in a movie we know not to buy it. Either they won't die or they'll be revived caused they are contracted to do however many more movies.
Personally it's starting to make most of the Marvel stuff skip able.
What they could of did was started off kang weak, give him some development, then make him into a powerful character. But his first appearance he should still do something that shows how powerful he can be.
Honestly reading all of these comments makes me feel valid for not watching trailers or keeping up with mcu news since about phase 3. I’ve gone into most films blind since Ragnarok and I’ve enjoyed them more for it
That’s really dumb the last sentence. Because that didn’t apply to the first three phases. We all enjoyed the build up to thanos. The reason kang sucks is because the MCU is a cluster mess. Who’s the avengers now? Echo, shuri, she hulk, Ironheart, Hawkeyes sidekick, daredevil, doctor strange, against kang. …
Wow, what a complete mess
The ants in Quantumania came from that movie. Hank was having them help him develop some sciency stuff at the start of the movie, and they got sucked into the Quantum tunnel along with everyone else but wound up in a different pocket of the Quantum realm where time moved faster than what the rest of the characters were experiencing.
Look, I know it wasn't the best movie, but if you just pay attention it is all right there.
Critiquing and not remembering the source material almost invalidates the entire video
@@thedude2648Not necessarily the whole video as it was still stupid for ants to overpower him, no matter how advanced they were, but yeh its not a good look to miss that part. I personally disliked the movie but I still payed enough attention to know how the ants got there.
I think one thing to remember is that not everyone has access to Loki and what if, and the other spin off shows. So for some quantumania was the first introduction to this character. I feel like writing for this type of audience has become increasingly complicated compared to before. I kinda give them a pass because of how much they are interweaving at once. The feeling I got from Kang overall was reflected by Scott’s inner monologue at the end of the movie. It felt like that whole experience put a sense of unease in his eyes, like nowhere is safe kinda vibe.
I saw the post credit scene as more of a showcase how hopeless the situation is, like no matter how many times you defeat Kang he will eventually come back, and his threat level will rise gradually
All Kangs there were weaker than exiled one, so there no problem at all. There were also many screaming Kangs in the arena, looking like imbeciles in the stadium. Never intimidating.
@@andreygilev3942 Yeah I don't know which genius decided that an entire arena of black guys making money noises was a good idea!
@@andreygilev3942dawg I’m pretty sure the exiled one just became beyond Kang
So , he's just going to keep losing in every movie he's in..
@@rzn2258 Not a good set up for a villain that destroys timelines.
Marvel should've introduced the Fantastic Four ASAP, and introduced Doctor Doom as someone who had a big plan coming that eventually affect everyone.
I think he prob show up in secret wars
@Westend Lolo I think he should've shown up way sooner, though. I think the MCU would've benefitted GREATLY by kicking off Phase 4 with the X-Men or the Fantastic Four and using one of those team's biggest villains (Doom over Magneto) as an ongoing threat.
@@theroyalmediator2658 honestly I love marvel and I loved the MCU movies haven't really been watching them tbh if they ever plan on doing avengers vs X-Men that's when I'll start watching again or when fantastic four is introduced
@Westend Lolo I agree. I've only watched Spidey NWH since Endgame. I think Marvel underestimated how many people were ready to get off the MCU train by Endgame (although lackluster projects CERTAINLY didn't help). X-Men and Fantastic Four were the big draws that they had going forward, and they inexplicably have provided LITTLE to no info on them.
They wasted Mads Mikkleson in Dr. Strange. He would have made a good Dr. Doom
The biggest mistake consumers have made is mistaking the mcu phases for narrative structure as opposed to marketing strategies.
4:25 the ant farm ended up there when all of them went to the quantum realm for the first time in this movie. It got sucked in when they went there and it was foreshadowed from his hearing aid giving feedback throughout the movie.
Despite the recent controversy of Jonathan Mayors, his performance and villain in Antman 3 remain the best part of that movie, a bad movie saved by his presence
I can only imagine how bad that movie would have been without him lol
The ants were sent there in the very same film, did you even bother to watch it before you came to your conclusions
It is Majors and he is being recasted anyway.
he didn't save it tho. it was still a bad movie
@@Latinblu Yeah they explained it in a 10 second Michael Douglas voice over that the ants went through some sort of time dilation whatever and became a type 2 civilization off screen. It strikes me as one of those last minute edits that they added because test audiences didn't have any idea what was going on or how the ants got there and where all their advanced technology came from.
I saw Kang the conqueror for the first time in the "Avengers: earth's mightiest heroes" cartoon back in the day. I remember everytime he apear it was a world ending event, he had the tecnology, the armies, the power and the drive, it was all to save his beloved, but the only way he knew was conquest, so all our heroes had to unite and fight him with everything they had, from raw force to wits, and pure look, if they ever hoped to win against him. This is the Kang I was expecting, but not the one we got.
Avengers: Earth's mightiest heroes introduced me to Kang. They made him so threatening, and different because of him being a villain that could use time travel. It's a real shame the MCU version is not as menacing.
Kang is more complex than that. The conqueror is only one aspect of the character that's kind of the point. Many of these reviewers want him to be Thanos 2.0 instead of Kang. I was pleased with this movie and how they presented him. Even depowered he was kicking Scott's ass. They beat him through dumb luck.
He's not meant to be an outright villain anyway, the point of his character was that he succeeded in conquering Earth and more in the future, that's just a fact, however he discovers an error in the timeline that spells the doom of his empire and kills his beloved. This thrusts him into finding a way to solve this time error which ends up being something villainous but also considerably noble because if he doesn't succeed the future is literally doomed.
MCU Kang is just an evil conqueror, that's all.
@@CloneLoli Yeah, they made him way more complex on the show.
I had an idea for what they could've done in the MCU. Have a truly evil Kang witness an incursion and replicating the results with his super tech in order to get rid of any opposition. We learn about this from a good version of Kang that wants to stop bad Kang. The Beyonders notice there are incursions that are not happening naturally. It ends with the Beyonders erasing every Kang across the multiverse because he is too dangerous to be left alive.
I think Kang is a threat because of his variants and that they will have to find a way to erase him from every timeline in order to prevent an eventual victory for Kang and having to handle the timelines where has already won and wiped out all threats. Any defeat is meaningless unless it is a total defeat
This is exactly what I felt with quantumania but had a hard time to express, the fragil nature against the protagonists but trying to make him invincible against every one else just look weird and wasn't well accomplished. Great video
The way I saw it when they showed the council of Kangs, rather than thinking “oh they’re just gonna show a variant kn each movie that will get defeated, rinse and repeat” it’s more like “it doesn’t matter how many times you put him down, he will ALWAYS come back”
And while I understand having him defeated by a bunch of ants definitely lowers his threat level, Im predicting a type of increasing difficulty with each variant. Like it will take MORE To take him down every time, more losses, bigger impacts. Until we eventually get the kang that figured out how to remove the avengers from the timelines and lead us into the kang dynasty and secret wars
Obviously there’s the elephant in the room that is the allegations towards the actor that plays him. I’m honestly curious to see how they get around this.
The entire MCU Phase is a training montage for Kang? Interesting take, I like it. Some kind of perspective to show growth.
And how long is that gonna take, counting at least the announced series and movies from here to the next Avengers movie?
No, seriously, it's just too much when compared to the movie-exclusive Infinity Saga and there have been way more stinkers very early on in the Multiverse Saga to trust this "Mystery Box" format of guessing Kang's next critical appearance...
I'm definitely Marvel'ing out after Guardians 3, James Gunn's vision for the DCU sounds way more enticing than MCU's future output.
Sure. But it's the same guy. We'll get bored long before he is finally a strong enough threat to surpass Thanos.
That's still pretty lame like oh no there's not just one completely disposable villain that Disney can pull out so that they don't have to make another villain there's infinity like that still isn't imposing if he's treated like a non issue which is fine because at this point why are you even still watching these movies like there shit the shows are shit it's schedule is shit sans Deadpool 3 which really doesn't count when you think about it maybe Guardians 3 will be good but yah that will be the last good one
That's kind of how he is in the comics and for the most part it's not interesting. Plus there's an infinite number of hero's to. We have seen this in Loki and Multiverse of Madness. We even have hero's like Loki, Dr. Strange, Scarlet Witch, and America Chavez who can pull the same Kang trick and bring them over. That's not even mentioning the Council of Reeds that will probably make an entrance after Fantastic Four.
THIS! Perfectly described how I'm feeling about where the MCU is heading. Thanks for the awesome work :)
I personally wish they’d have done Secret Invasion as the past Thanos story line.
They could have done so much more with twists like x hero is a Skrull, slow mysterious reveal that someone is behind the scenes pulling strings (the new big bad), the total break down of trust between nations/heroes/etc over who’s actually on what side, etc.
The impending threat of Kang is that you CAN literally just keep killing him, and NEVER actually stop him
THAT IS what the fear is
His power isn't cosmic or magical or being a demigod or anything. It's that he is literally infinite
And from a cinematic perspective, that's a bit boring. He's supposed to be all powerful or whatever but his powers are unclear and the way infinite versions of him is set up, he was intended to be a threat in several films leading up to the finale. Why should audiences care whenever he pops up since even if he's defeated in one movie, unless it's the last one, they know he'll be back? There's fear for the heroes, and narratively, it could make for a good standalone series, but several seperate movies revolving around one dude as the main bad guy? Nah that doesn't work.
And that's fucking boring, it works in videogames like the flood in Halo bc you are taking part of the story. It movies its just boring
@@telleva7890what
".....Never actually stop him....." Then what's the FUQQIN point in making any movies anymore!!!!!!
Everything was heading towards INFINITY WAR and ENDGAME
Now the MCU became one big bubble, ready to burst
To me it already burst.
Hasn’t it already bursted?
Or it's just telling a new story after that one ended...
I don't think you understand the bubble bursting analogy well enough to use it properly...
@@yan_dj No one cares anymore honestly 😂
There are a lot of strong points made, but was it really hard to remember that the super evolved ants were the ones introduced in the first act that got brought down to the Quantum Realm with the rest of the cast?
This really proves he doesn't know what he's talking about.
That still does not explain how a version of Kang who was shown fighting entire armies and wiping whole TIMELINES away, gets defeated by a bunch of "Time warped" ants with super intelligence. They flat out say the man beat a version of the avengers... So by proxy now these ants are stronger than the avengers since they folded Kang right?
@@Melancholy_Mudkip They're communist ants though
@@Melancholy_Mudkip I think that can be explained with the type of civilization the ants became. From the looks of it they became advanced to the point of having tech on par with or superior then Kangs but that’s the only way I think it could’ve made sense
@@mills2639 If that's true then by the time Kang Dynasty happens they should be the ones on the front lines fighting the Kang's. See that's a huge problem going forward since there civilization should continue to evolve. However there either going to be ignored or hand waved aside when shit hits the fan. Those ant's should have never been in the movie and Kang should have been defeated at a cost. Michael Douglas is on record of wanting out so have Hank should have sacrificed himself to take out Kang. Those two changes fixes a lot of the problems Kang has.
Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who found him underwhelming. Especially with how the Ant family defeated him with no losses
The first thing I did after coming back home from the movie Quantumania is I rewatched the Kang episode from Loki because I could not digest the fact that they made him a joke in Quantumania. I love how they introduced him in Loki and I was very thrilled to see this variant. I was rooting for him because he convinced the audience that he was holding everyone safe and it works. I have had chills running down my spine when he was warning about his other variants. Quantumania successfully ruined his most evil variant and made him a joke. Jonathan Majors did a fantastic job with whatever he has but I hope they do not waste his talent. Even now I want to go back and watch Loki.
I think the ants kind of represent the never ending flow of Kangs. The ants only won because there were so many of them, they chip away and chip away until they win. It’s the same with all the Kangs. 1 low level Kang, not all that hard to deal with, but Kang after Kang after Kang each going forward with new knowledge, potentially showing up at different places and times. That’s going to be harder to defeat.
Underrepresented comment
Well said
They are still just a bunch of ants though
@@Gabrielzinho7891235 you are dumb af
Symbolism doesn’t substitute for bad shitty deu ex machina. You can’t just hype up a Multiversal threat only for him to be cucked by ants in the most non believable way ever. Mfer just put up a force field and didn’t use any of the other powers he had shown in past scenes.
The thing that gets me is that kang in ant man literally hyped himself up by saying he's going to take on the council. And then lost to ant man. It's now going to be so hard to even feel attached to this character when we know he's one of hundreds
What if this Kang isn't dead, and he ends up working with the Avengers to take on the council? An Enemy-of-my-enemy situation
@@TadpoleMusics booooooo👎🏾👎🏾
Well, after watching the end of Loki season 2, we get a sense of how powerful Kang really is. He who remains planned all of this, and his control of time is super scary when he chooses to use it. Im guessing he is just waiting for the pieces to fall into place.
Agreed.
Maybe Kang the Conqueror could've played a similar role of mastermind manipulator, using other Kangs to do things for him. One of those smaller Kangs could've appeared in Quantumania.
Similar as to what Thanos did, that way building up to the great villain but leaving room for other Kangs to have an impact as well.
Don't know if/how would that tie up with comics tho
I actually think he was handled really well in Loki but awfully in Antman
I have the same feeling with Darth Vader tbh, i feel like the mystery of him and how powerful he was made it so much more terrifying (especially since we’ve rarely seen him in action until the disney days) and that showing him more like Disney keeps doing is only gonna ruin that feeling. like the Obi Wan fight scene was cool but Vader is finally fighting the man he hates who put him in the suit and has been out of touch with the force for years while he’s been growing increasingly stronger and somehow they want us to believe Vader wouldn’t have ended it there and then?!?!there is no way in hell George Lucas would let that happen and i fear that Stan Lee wouldn’t want this to happen either
Your confusing bad writing with showing a character… he showed up in rogue one and is amazing. He shows up in kenobi alongside a character called reva who gets stabbed at 5, survives, then again and survives, and blames kenobi for leaving the Jedi temple like how can you be so unintelligent he was ending the war, he could have said that but no. And an 8 year old girl outrunning 3 grown men. So…
yeah
i'm surprised they don't reboot star wars at this point.
i'd rather see "villains"/antagonists going all-out, not hiding in the shadows or being sent-out on peasants' errands or whatever the fuck. If you want people to think Vader's a badass or whatever, actually go about killing people. Not just being 2nd fiddle to Palpatine or whatever. Man, I've played SWTOR and the amount of times i have to do fetchquests, gets to me. it's never just 'kill this guy,' it's 'go back and forth all day and send your master relics and shit' ngl, I think Smuggler, BH, Agent (to some extent) and Trooper (also to some extent) are betterthan both Jedi/Sith classes. Maybe that's just me having fun playing characters that can shoot people - but I'd rather see that. I don't like having an antagonist just send flocks of minions at a hero and that sorta thing. Just show yourself and stop being pussy.
tbh Vader isn't my favorite/most-liked Sith/DSer, that goes to Maul, Kylo Ren and the Sith from The Old Republic. TOR Sith, atleast to me, seem more fierce than Palpatine/Vader. W/ Palpy, he's just hiding behind Inquisitors and Dark Jedi instead of just showing himself.
Maybe we reboot Star Wars eventually. Maybe we take Palpatine and Vader and merge them into one character, a Sith Juggernaut that can also shock people that doesn't have Vaders' weakness. Being a cyborg is supposed to be cool, but SW lore fucked it up with 'oh, his breathing is painful' and all that. Why not have a huge, muscled-out dude in armor that's a bit cybernetic that can zap/force choke and use his saber. Go all-out w/ the Force _and_ be a warrior with lightsabers instead of doing like Palpy and "hiding in the shadows."
That's kinda why Darth Malgus (atleast imo) is a better Vader than Vader, tho I will also say it feels like most Sith are just copies of Vader. Even Count Dooku, Grievous (and to some extent, Maul) felt like copies of Vader. Kylo Ren isn't even Sith, and yet, he gets it done. He even does the whole "brooding teenager" thing. I thought Sith were all about Wrath and Angst? Why not show that aspect?
SW sucks rn, because the Jedi/Sith aren't even the main focus anymore. It's now the Mandos, Clones, Rebels/Resistance, Imperial Lackeys and just about everything else. When I go to see SW, I largely want to see saber duels and force tricks. I don't care about political backgammon scheming in the shadows.
I'm of a mind that SW needs to be rebooted, instead of writing ten thousand books/novels/comics or having all these Redheaded Stepchildren of shows and saying "oh, that's all canon." Imho, if it was all Canon, it'd be on the big screen. It wouldn't be just adding random bullshit trivia or whatever. Reboot it. Merge some characters. Make everything streamlined instead of the jank we have b/c of Lucas and his ilk just randomly adding shit. If you're gonna have Boba Fett/Jango/wtf random Mando, atleast ***show*** them being badass instead of teasing/infering it constantly. Actually _show_ the "badass" Bounty Hunter going around, killing people. Don't just say "oh yeah, this guy was merking folks behind-the-scenes" or make a show about Mandos and Grey Jedi after-the-fact.
Stan Lee what? He was not even good at his job. He was carried by almost everyone he worked with. His take on DC heroes and latest works proved how average he was.
Even worse, they made him a complete idiot who is not able to successfully follow two ships at a time being on a f***ing star destroyer. And remember the scene where he suddenly kills some random dude out of nowhere for absolutely no reason? I dont know, he felt more like a joke to me.
Okay I don't like what Disney's been doing with Star Wars, but you can't blame them for ruining the mystery and terror of Vader when George Lucas himself literally wrote the prequels lol
Idk why they didnt just accept that 'kangs' will just be kinda dangerous fodder for the next fase, and add in like 'kang generals' or the 'council of kang' so each movie can have a unique final boss, with a limited number of them, you could make them all kinda unique, and give the phase an overall sense of progression as the heroes wittle away at the important kangs
Maybe the ant scene would have worked if maybe as he was screaming and dying by the ants he starts laughing like a maniac and looks at the main character and says something that solidifies the fact that no matter how many times you kill him he will always return
Kang being introduced in Loki was a mistake, its like Thanos being introduced in Agents of Shield it just lacks the impact of being a bid bad.
Only because you know how much of a threat he's supposed to be. You gotta think about the casual viewers one major complaint I would here about Thanos was who is he how can he beat the hulk what is he after. There trying to actually flesh the villain out this time.
@@fatmankidblitz yeah establishing him by making him a fucking chump who lost every battle till now
I just want to point out a few small things: First, Kang is capable of firing death inducing lasers from his hands while he has his suit. Without that supersuit he's just a man, hence why he is taking shelter in the cave with Janet in the beginning until the chair is powered up. The ants are the ones who actually disarm him after Darren/Modok disables his shield. Second, we don't actually see him die in the end of this movie. Yes he's defeated, but based on what we've seen about the quantim realm, he was probably just transported to a deeper layer and not actually dead. Also, the ants are transported with them in the beginning - that's pretty clear. Say what you will about the rules of the quantum realm, but it's not that huge of a leap to say they evolved in a time warp imo. The whole movie Kang is saying Antman isn't enough, he's not Thor, all he does is talk to ants - and then the ants are instrumental in his defeat. I get that it's not shakespeare but it is somewhat poetic.
Super ultimate ultra evolved Kang. This one has destroyed quintillions of dimensions and timelines. We just might be doomed this time.
Suddenly a bunch of random Roly Poly's show up.
Kang: Noooo I'm being defeated
@@Carbon_Based_Life_Formwhat
Like somebody else pointed out...some fans just are convinced that Antman isn't cool enough to do anything important.
If this was Ironman defeating Kang (despite Kang being several orders smarter) ...nobody would complain about it.
In this movie the ants are *several orders smarter* than most of the people in the quantum realm, including the Antman team.
Kang is still smarter than the evolved ants...but it's a whole colony of them.
I think everyone’s missing the point. Kang can be defeated as many times as anyone wants, but he’s still there. There’s no getting rid of him. So 3 defeats for 2 movies or not, he’s still there. The only way to permanently get rid of Kang is to find a singular thing in the multiverse or series of things that will prevent his rise to power across every timeline. If Marvel does this right, it will work well.
4:36 seriously… if you don’t know watch the movie again. It does make sense. A little over the top, but again don’t act like it came out of nowhere because you can’t pay attention…
In the climatic battle between Kang and Scott and Hope scene, Kang never “forgets” to use his lasers on them. He simply can’t do it because his armour has clearly been shredded by the giant super-smart ants. Kang using his lasers in that scene makes as much sense as Thanos giving up his quest once Wanda destroys the Mind Stone
Who says they wouldn't work?
And how is it that ants trampling him destroys his super advanced, multiversal suit?
It just plot convenience
@@BaithNa When the ants break through Kang’s force field, grab him and drag him off-screen then he later shows up alive but with damaged armour and doesn’t use his lasers… to me that clearly implies he can’t because of the damage. But yes still a plot convenient outcome because of the deus ex ants
I think the worst part is that he is seen to have the reflexes to easily react to the shrink combat that ant man uses but he never actually capitalizes on this. Also, just for plot convenience he keeps Cassy alive for literally no reason. He clearly states that he doesn’t care about killing them since he genocided dozens of races before but decides to keep this random as girl alive. Bruh
I think the worst part is that he is seen to have the reflexes to easily react to the shrink combat that ant man uses but he never actually capitalizes on this. Also, just for plot convenience he keeps Cassy alive for literally no reason. He clearly states that he doesn’t care about killing them since he genocided dozens of races before but decides to keep this random as girl alive. Bruh
@@MandyMan24 He tried to use them, but they kept "shorting" out. Everyone saying Kang is weak is capping.
Interesting look at Kang and not something I considered before. When I first watched the movie I actually was excited for Kang to show up and honestly by the end was still excited to see the Avengers go up against him because of one simple thing. The variants. Yes two versions of Kang have now either died or been defeated, but that doesn't mean every Kang will be. The idea of a variant means there can be a Kang that is maybe more powerful than the other ones. Perhaps one that has a different skill set or took martial arts training at one point. What I'm saying is the possibilities are endless really. Furthermore because Kang is a multiversal threat, that also means he will return in some capacity and can never really be defeated. Which is why I'm excited for the Avengers films coming up. That said though, I was disappointed that he was defeated in Ant-Man 3. I would have preferred the rumored, if not confirm, original ending to the film where Scott and Hope are trapped in the Quantum Realm and Kang does escape. Oh also, the ants got sucked into the Quantum realm at the beginning of the film.
Finally some one gets it
I agree on the inconsistency of his powers
Not just the super destroying blue lasers, but also the fact he could easily freeze Scott and Cassie early in the movie by just waving his hand bit then he had to engage in hand to hand combat with Scott?
Like WTF
MCU as a whole has the same issue that most movie franchises do on a smaller scale, not to mention television series.
That is, they want it to keep going forever, so they can keep milking it forever, but they eventually run out of story to tell. MCU had been setting up Thanos from the very start. Even in movies where he wasn't mentioned, the infinity stones, or objects that would be revealed to be infinity stones, were there. It brings everything together and moving toward that big confrontation with the ultimate villain.
They literally CANT do that again, because they haven't been planting seeds of any new threat for years and years before the reveal. At this point, they're in the stage where all their original plans and ideas have played out, now they're just making it up as they go along. It's like Game of Thrones after they ran out of GRR Martin's books, they just have no idea where to go or what to do anymore.
To properly setup another big villain, they'd need a dozen more movies all alluding to something big and bad and powerful out there to get the same impact, but each one of these movies would have to basically be smaller stakes. And it's really hard to reduce stakes in ANY kind of fiction with all the power creep the MCU has. The only way they could sort of make that work is to keep killing off the powerful heroes.
Ironman is gone, Wanda is gone, Captain America is gone, Black Widow is gone, Hawkeye is basically retired, etc etc. If they decommission or kill all their old heroes, they'll be forced to start over with smaller stakes again for a new generation who can eventually come together for a big bad.
The problem with THAT approach, is I think most people are just kind of tired of super hero movies in general at this point. MCU movies all have a particular "feel" to them, and people aren't interested in that. A properly done DCU might could work, but they'd have to go darker, grittier, more realistic, to make it feel different from the MCU, otherwise they'll run into the same issues with superhero burn out.
Another issue is Hollywood is becoming very deranged in how they make movies now. They want ALL leads to be female, they want extremely diverse casts, etc to the point that they're rewriting established characters with histories of 30-40+ years, and fans of those characters and stories resent having them be racially and sexually recast, or arbitrarily made gay, and all the other agendas Hollywood is pushing these days. It makes the OG fans lose all interest in it, the younger fans who don't know these characters in the first place don't care enough to give it any attention, so their projects end up flopping and failing and because the companies can't understand what they did wrong and don't want to admit fault, they just say everyone who didn't see it was sexist or racist or whatever else is convenient.
Numbers don't lie. People love diverse casts. Movies with diverse casts win awards and make money. People love female leads. Movies with female leads make money and win awards. But those movies only work and are successful when the people making them actually want to tell a good story and make a good movie. Hollywood doesn't do that and believe in it anymore, they SACRIFICE story, they SACRIFICE quality, all for the sake of hitting their checklists. Audiences can tell the difference between a good story and a bad one and they only want to see good movies. You can hide behind all the "-ists" and "-isms" you want, but those are just absolving the creators of any responsibility for manufacturing soulless garbage that no one wants to watch.
You want a story with female leads and lots of gay shit? Go watch Arcane. That shit is FIRE. Beautiful to look at, beautifully written, amazing characters and story. Wildly successful and popular BECAUSE ITS FUCKING GOOD. But if you manufacture some horse shit with 2 lesbian leads, you can't just say its because people hate women. I'm tired of the excuses by the shitheads who make this crap and every dumbass that defends them. They'll continue to manufacture trash so long as you people keep paying for it.
I’ve always thought that an Exiles movie or live action series or animated series would be great for the Multiverse Saga. Even before there was talk about the multiverse I thought it could be a great way to mesh all the various movie universes together. I loved reading the Exiles. Hopefully we can maybe get a cartoon eventually… 🤔 I’d rather watch that than What If?
Yeah, I wish we could've gotten one based off of the Avengers Earth's mightiest heroes show.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I’ve never seen that show. I need to go through all the old Marvel cartoons and have a marathon. 🤔 Been looking for things to watch. Binged a ton of DC stuff recently, maybe I should move over to some Marvel stuff.
@@hawkingbishop the early 2000s Marvel animated stuff is great, especially Avengers Earth's mightiest heroes. Think that show does a better job of bringing to life the Marvel universe than the MCU.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp alright, cool. Gonna start watching tonight. Thank you!
@@hawkingbishop no problem. Enjoy!
The problem is that certain concepts can't be grasped in spite of fan expectations. The Kang in Quantumania was meant to be powerful, but he was never guaranteed to be the big fish in this narrative. The next variant could easily be so powerful that he actually could decimate entire universes at the snap of a finger, but the fans have convinced themselves that if we're not introduced to THAT version of the villain immediately, anything else is either too low-stakes to matter or an outright cop out rather than serial escalation by continually showing stronger variants.
But Marvel could have easily fix that, if they didn't show us a Kang that is comic book accurately, they could have gone with Inmortus, or Rama-Tut as this movie's villains, and then, all of us could have easily grasped this wasn't the final boss Kang.
Serial escalation doesn't matter if we know he's going to get beaten in every single movie
@@SlightlyArtsy your comment proves my point. It's the equivalent of saying "why consume any superhero media at all if I go in expecting good to defeat evil no matter the stakes?"
@@surferzapper20The issue here is that Kang is suposed to be THE MAIN VILLAIN.
Kang will become less of a threat like Thanos and more of a Team Rocket, a bunch of goofy guys with big speeches that keep getting their asses kicked and coming back untill the audience gets tired of them.
If Quantumania Kang was an unstopable force (something like The Terminator in the first movie) that just kept going and destroying everything in his way untill Scott had to sacrifice himself to contain Kang, so the others could escape the QuantumVerse before him it would cause a way bigger impact in the audience and people would look at the council scene and think "Holy shit, if one of them did all this, how tf will the new Avengers be able to handle thousands of this guy?"
@@surferzapper20 The problem with your "point" is pretty clear; them fighting weaker versions of the same guy isn't that interesting. It's manufactured hype by lore. They see him, they beat him, lore comes out saying "next one will be more badass promise", and the cycle repeats until the end of the phase. Thanos works because you have people becoming aware of a greater threat but still fighting their own lore appropriate bad guys. There, you have a variety of different villains with their own motivations and a more interwoven overall story. Kang's main issue is that you have one guy hyped to be so devastating powerful but he not only doesn't doesn't act, he also sends lesser version to get clowned until the end and each of them are all generally the same personality repeated into infinite. He makes more sense as a villain in a mini-series but not several movies over a few years.
This is why I’m much more selective with what Marvel projects I want to watch now, I really don’t give a shit about Kang, Secret Wars or Thunderbolts at this point.
I think one of the reasons Thanos was such a good villain and why Endgame was so well received is because he could only be defeated through sacrifice. You know if the Avengers are to win then one or more of them have to die. It’s not about if they’re going to win, but what they have to sacrifice to win.
We don’t know that Kang was defeated by Scott, the ending seemed too perfect like Scott’s mind is trapped somewhere
The only thing that could save Kang is that in the avengers film is revelealed he actually defeat the heroes but he brainwashed them in believing he was defeated as part of his plan
What is this episodic anime or a tv show? Tricking people “Opps sorry people, he ain’t dead”…
Remember the backlash of Glen fake death in the walking dead…
If he survive, then show it…. U don’t let the people wait for 2 years to know if he survives or not
I know that Marvel is considering replacing Majors, and honestly it works becuase they can say he just "looks" different in this timeline.
Do they even need to address it? Lots of actors get changed in roles and its never mentioned and people just accept it
@@laurarules3642 I mean, the last big replacement I can think of was Rhodey all the way at the start of the MCU. This would be more akin to changing for example the actor for Captain America or Tony Stark.
Why did they hire some black dude for this role anyways , that is what bugs me honestly
I wish more People would critizise that, in recent movies
Because clearly kang is not black
Like little mermaid, its based on Skandinavien tale , so it make sense she is White with red hair.
They have some black girl playing ariel ...
Nvm effects of the movies because its big budget so quality is Great which makes it viewable for the audience
But why they s*itt*ng on original characters like this, I don't like black People, so why go to the extent to force audience watch them , replace original characters
And I belive majority cares just like I do.
@@robert-janthuis9927 I know what you mean and understand what you're saying but people just seem to accept it especially in superhero movies. Look at all the different Batmans and jokers . I think at one point DC had two different jokers at the same time. Then all the different spider-mans and nobody really cared BUT they did sort of explain that with the multiverse thing. Then all the different actors playing Star Trek characters. I can't actually remember in the James Bond movies if there was an explanation why he was a different person every so often but I just put it down to being an alias name and the 007 was a position that anyone could fill. Plus Hollywood has a habit of replacing any male characters with female ones so if they do replace him I think he'll change genders as well
Michael Shannon, Rami Malek, and/or Giancarlo Esposito would be the perfect Kang replacements in my opinion.
I think the unnerving thing about Kang is, I like him, and each time he warns us, If you think im bad.. wait till you meet my variants, so does he die? Yeah.. and each time there's an impending sense of dread that something worse has been unleashed.
I feel like maybe the real threats of Kang are going over most peoples heads. He's not exactly as simple as Thanos. What does thanos want? To delete half of the life in the universe. His reasonings may have much room for complex discussion and thought, but the general threat he poses is simple to understand.
Then you've got Kang. Kang's motivations are potentially infinite, potentially singular. From the two depictions we have - Loki and Antman - we've seen two versions both of whom at least claimed to want to prevent multiversal war. One was basically what was left from the last "cycle", one had been imprisoned. And he kicked their ass until the ants showed up. He was at least as threatening as Thanos in any given moment. They made it pretty clear that even in their tiny forms, he was capable of winning the fight. That being said, they had to resolve it somehow. Maybe there was a better outcome for the film... but having him defeated leads to the end credits cutscene, where we see many *many* kangs. If one Kang was that much of a threat, how much of a threat is an army of them?
Then there's the cyclical nature of the character (and the universe). Unless another solution is found, the death of the Kang from Loki is going to result in a multiversal war, leading to chaos, death, suffering across the multiverse. And where's that gonna lead? Back to "He who remains" or at least, some version of him.
I dont think its a Kang problem, its more of a multiverse problem. Multiverse makes any stakes in movies non-existant.
Can you give a practical example of that that actually happened in a movie?
You could argue that the universe makes any stakes in movies non-existant because there will always be other people in other galaxies unaffected by the movie. Multiverse is just another scale up from that dealing with the existential problem of insignificance but you can still make the story work. Just look at EEAAO. They basically established that the multiverse made all life meaningless but then went on to reject that idea and instead focus on how valuable small moments and relationships are.
The same applies to the avengers. Thanos' snap wasn't a big deal because it wiped out half of all life. Audiences can't even conceptualize an act like that. Audiences care because of the fear in Peter Parker's eyes, Tony's shame and guilt and the overall sense of failure and grief. You can tell a good story in a multiverse setting, you just have to stay connected with the humanity at the heart of the story.
I'm still optimistic that Kang the Conqueror isn't actually dead. Scott may have been alluding to it as well in his outro (hopefully). Shrinking into the core COULD be what allows him to get out of the quantum realm at will. or this could just be wishful thinking.
I think the ending (not to mention the post-credit) makes it plenty clear that things are off, even Scott's narration goes out of its way to point it out.
Ant-Man 3 writer Jeff Loveness even stated that he's writing Kang as the "secret protagonist" of The Kang Dynasty.
I am SO glad you mentioned the EXILES!!! I think that if Marvel were to make a TV show about the Exiles and a cohesive trip around the multiverse, it could be the best thing explored out of all of the superhero genre, if done correctly
I´m thinking the Kangs we´ve seen so far are just a red herring and that the real big bad of these phases is an all-powerful Kang variant we haven´t seen yet that goes by the name of The Beyonder.
The ants were sucked with them in the beginning, they just arrived earlier in time, so they evolved by the time Scott and the gang arrived. Hank explained it.
When Scott was in the quantum realm for 5 years he said it felt like 5 minutes.
@@that_guy_v What are you referring to regarding the 'truth of the quantum realm?'
@@that_guy_v I get what you are saying and I can see that. My take on the last ending was he knows he lost against Kang but doesn’t want to believe it because denying it means he has his family back.
Why are so many people bothered by the ants? Did they just not watch this scene where Hank explained it?
I remember seeing the ants fall in at the start of the movie in the theater and thought “I bet they’ll return”
Is nobody watching the dang movie?
@@that_guy_v Scott wasn't in the Quantum Realm for the 5 years that passed after "Infinity War"...to him, it was only five hours. Compared to the amount of study conducted by Hank and the experience Janet had, he wouldn't know as much as them.
He even went sub-atomic, but he was apparently trapped in the void in the first film until he got out of it to get back to Cassie.
Scott's not an idiot (well...not a complete one anyway), he's simply lacking information.
can't say that the Quantumania Kang was that threatening or felt like a big bad that could cause universal problems, and the film itself was just...there. it feels like with this multiverse direction, they're trying to tie everything together by giving everyone the same experience - alternate versions and slightly different realities interacting with heroes / themselves, where they discover this Kang constant. perhaps ultimately they're going realize that he's returning in different forms and that he can manipulate time by changing events and redoing it until he wins - kinda like Agent Smith reappearing endlessly to fight Neo.
on one hand I understand that having a villain that keeps coming back no matter how many times they're beaten is an existential threat, but if their only motivation is just to rule, that's fairly dull. the only way to make that work is with the idea of a sacred timeline and reigning in alternate ones for universal stability, and ruling reality itself has more to it than just dominance.
I agree with all your point and think that, more generally, part of the problem is an obession with keeping momentum up by rushing through projects that are half baked at best. I've been tired with the comic book film genre for a while and i think most people would have appreciated if marvel/disney had stopped for a few years after infinity war, taken a breath, and made fewer, more deliberate films that felt warranted in their own right, rather than just a frantic lead up to another huge corssover event/finale
Note for Marvel: If you're introducing the big bad guy who supposedly killed so many Avengers he forgot their names, the last thing you wanna do is making him lose to a CGI army of ants the first time he shows up.
Before Infinity War, we endured the worst movies because we knew they were gonna be relevant in the future
Now watching anything from the MCU became a chore we no longer want to endure
I think the idea is to get the villain to be sort of like the underdog. Because Kang is like the Reverse Flash, he cant die and thus will "Always comes back" and i think the same Kang the Conquerer that was exile will slowly rise up to be stronger and end up defeating the Kang Dynasty and some of the Avengers. But i think they should've at least let him kill Scott and let Cassey push him into the Deus Ex Machina Core because he was distracted.
The thing about Eoabard is that at this point his most famous quote is “it was me Barry”
We have not seen Kang be positioned as a temporal threat which is what he should be. Marvel unfortunately told us that due to how time travel works the most Kang can do is go back in time and conquer a timeline but he can never go back in time and effect the outcome of our current stories.
If they wanted kang to be a threat it should have been made very clear that the reason certain things occur in movies that may seem coincidence are not, there should be scenes in multiple movies of things being almost comically convenient and have Kang be behind it.
We should honestly have a version of Kang who at the end of his ropes Decides that being separated won’t stop the hero’s so he absorbs all the thousand different versions of Kang making him an absolute menace but also vulnerable since he is extremely powerful but down to one.
I think a better way they could do it is lean into the whole he keeps coming back idea and instead of giving him generic villain powers make he remembers the experiences of all of his variants. Which leads to a villain who never stops coming and always learns from his mistakes. Antman overwhelmed him with ants? Good luck ever letting that happen again as now his shields fry anyone and anything that touches them.
It’s the ultimate form of unstoppable force. You can delay him, you can kill him, but in the end he will always win because by the time you’re exhausted of it, he’s fresh and ready and he knows all your weaknesses and strengths and how best to counter them. If they wanted to make a thanos level villain with the idea of he can be in most movies, that’s how
What if Kang is being shown as the big bad when he actually isn’t? What if they were using his appearances as a smokescreen to someone or something else?
DOOOOOOM!
@@maninthetrenchcoat5603 It's more likely to be the Beyonders, I doubt they'll give Doom the chance to make Battleworld when apparently he will barely, if even, be featured in the new F4 movie
Let's hope
@@healthiswealth1452 Mephisto still on the table as well
My thoughts exactly. He's just a red herring. They're going to have a worse villain come in and kill Kang at the end of the Kang's Dynasty part one. How else could they match or outdo the shock of the Thanos Snap? They basically spell out exactly how Modok is going to return as Modok Superior and, since they didnt show it happen in a post credit scene, my money's on it being him. "The Avengers Will Return in....The Modok Dynasty"
As someone who spent over a decade being annoyed by the non-stop proliferation of superhero movies, it was seeing Thanos in the trailer to Infinity that piqued my interest and brought me around. Full disclosure: Ragnarok played a part in that as well.
There was lead up to Thanos, especially with the infinity stones. Each film seemed connected, and impacted the others. Each hero also had an attachment with each stone. Now with Kang, there isn’t any any connectivity and none of the movies feel interconnected
I think that you failed to pay attention to a lot. The ants at that come in were sucked into the quantum realm at the beginning of THIS movie.
Avengers already established time travel is possible because of the quantum realm, hence how the ants developed quickly.
As for kang dying… it seems really obvious to me that he didn’t die. Especially considering the movie basically beat you over the head with Scott’s doubt that he’s actually gone.
And what are you basing this latest round of Marvel bashing on? Kang's first appearance in Loki went over great with the fans and while Quantummania was just ok, it still did about on par with it's previous Ant-Man entries.
So your entire argument is based on 2 appearances thus far. This is like after Guardians of the Galaxy, if you claimed the same thing about Thanos.
It's not A problem with Kang or the MCU, it's YOUR problem with Kang and the MCU.
I remember when they were trying to compare Kang to a threat the size of Thanos. 😂 I find it really funny they really thought quantum mania was gonna make them a billion dollars.
The answer is OBVIOUS, and there's more than one(!):
1) Make him weak and easy to defeat with his only ace being manipulation (before being found out), his technological superiority and also that there's an infinite number of him that will never stop coming after our heroes. That could deal with the problem of individuals being easily defeated while also being terrifying!
2) Copy _Rick And Morty_ Roy back by settling down at some point to focus on one Kang who the audience can focus on and who can show the kind of tenacity that was so effective for Thanos.
After Ant-Man I’m bored of Kang, I want them to just set up Doctor Doom or Galactus as the surprise Big Bad leading up to Secret Wars.
Maybe the idea is that Kang is somewhat powerful by himself, but with a bunch of variants all together they can’t be stopped
The problem is that literally applies to every hero or villain. I mean imagine 10 Thanos working together?
@@bond0815 yeah fair, though I think the idea with Kang is that he's the only one who's really figured out how to use the multiverse to his advantage (not to say that others couldn't)
In the comics that's heavily the idea. He's beaten all the time in the comics but he can come back and refight the same battles winning the next time creating timelines where he wins.
I really hated that "evolved ants" plot point in Quantamania.
Before they made it seem like the avengers would beat Thanos, but surprised us with the opposite. And now they made us think there's no way a dude with some ants can defeat the mutiversal conqueror but did the exact opposite. Good job marvel.
This issue, along with Multiverse Fatigue setting in for a lot of people that used to follow every superhero movie/series actively, I can see will probably contribute to superhero movies needing some sort of revival, or reset, and not in the way the new Flash movie did it. As a writer, I can see how it can be so hard to create something today that has not already been done to death, but as you point out here, just having the same villain appear over and over again to be defeated in different ways and showing up in different forms, I don't think is the way to go. He feels weak, which means people probably won't be all that surprised if we suddenly meet a version of Kang that is not weak. It's predictable, and is likely to fall flat. And until then, he will also fail to feel like a legitimate threat, meaning he will also be disappointing. I'd like to see the MCU figure this one out, and I hope they do, but at the moment it looks like they're setting themselves up for a rough time.
Kang will be his own generals. He will be his own henchman. And he will be the big bad. Every Kang we see till the final movies will just be cannon fodder for the real Endgame Kang. His super power isn’t that he’s always dying. It’s that every time you kill one there’s another to take his place. A never ending fight against the same bad guy over and over and over again till you can’t take it anymore.
Ultron did this. It’s boring
But is it interesting? The problem with this is that is just seems like by the third time we see Kang get his shit rocked, we’ll be bored. Even IF they switch things up
I think the reason he feels like he's been handled wrong is because you expect him to be handled like a singular big bad, the way Thanos was. But he's not a singular big bad. His multiple defeats demonstrate to the audience that yes, he can be beaten. However, I think this is purposeful, in order to contrast what his multiple appearances demonstrate: for the first time in the Avenger's history, it doesn't matter that they successfully defeated him. There will always be another one. Kang will just. keep. coming. Forever. How do you battle an infinite army?
I feel this is an under-appreciated comment. His menace does feel deflated by constant defeats, but the infinity stones have also been rendered meaningless too. It doesn’t make the whole Phase 1-3 meaningless. It was just on a different scope, guided by the TVA. We’re on a different scope here and, I’m guessing in Dr Strange 3, Shang Chi Wreckage of Time and Kang Dynasty we will see the hero’s fail miserably. Because there’s no way to beat an infinitely spawning being that has allegiance only to himself.
I’m guessing that will be the cosmic and overarching front, while Kingpin will be the grounded front, being made mayor of NY and outlawing super heroism.
While I didn’t really feel super excited on the whole about Phase 4 I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt til the end of Phase 6 to see if it really comes together in a believable and meaningful way.
"How do you battle an infinite army?" Obviously easy with an army of ants that will eat all the kangs. And don't forget, with every kang you kill, there's no Kang and less trouble in one of the universes. So it's not the biggest threat. In addition, you can get an infinite number of ant-man with the help of America Chavez to kill an infinite number of Kangs. Problem solved.
I think Kang isn't the real villain of the phase 5 and 6.
The thing is secret wars reportedly is only one movie. So, Kang dynasty might end with a certain iconic villain lurking in the shadows. I think Kang is like Loki sort of a villain, the villain who builds hype around the main big bad. And the main big bad i think is gonna be the comics Secret wars villain if u know wht i meant. I didn't wanna spoil the MCU only audience.
Thank you! This was always going to be the problem with going forward with Kang ever since I watched the Loki finale. I'm just glad someone took the time to formulate a coherent summery better than I was capable of making.
They should of made a Solo movie of Kang the conqueror starting off phase 5 & have him face off with the avengers in a different universe but they are different actors, it can be animated or live action.
It can also have him be different from Thanos because he has it's own origins movie. You never know Kang might fight against his own variance, teaming up with the avengers in Kang dynasty.
It isn't working cos Kang didn't say "It's Kangin' time" and Conquered all over the place
Bro, for the love of god please stop reusing this “joke”. It’s so cringey
@@extra4542nothing is more cringe than telling random people what jokes to tell.
Haven't heard that joke before.....
Majors plays the role perfectly, and Marvel should allow him to win in the movies he appears in. They need to make sure Kang's moments on screen are special and sparse, but that's probably too far down the drain with Ant-Man 3.
In the comics, the whole Multiverse idea feels like a tool for writers to mostly go apeshit with things like a Zombieverses/Cancerververses or really anything whatsoever, without fucking the main universe up. Solve situations where they wrote themselves in a corner, or to work around things other authors did if they don't like it very much. It feels more of a regulatory tool that guarantees a pretty stable status quo in the main universe, while still allowing creative freedom in all others.
Deciding to make this into the main focus of their movies post-Thanos, was maybe the dumbest thing Marvel could have done, no matter how good they (could have) implemented it. As it stands now, there are absolutely no stakes in any MCU movie anymore, with literally infinite alternate realities to unfuck whatever gets fucked up.
Hell, at this point, I'd even expect them to try bringing back RDJ as alternate-timeline Tony Stark in hopes of him saving their future projects...
Worst part is when Kang is hopefully defeated in Avengers: Kang Dynasty or Secret Wars, how will we know he's truly been defeated?
What I would have done is have a truly evil Kang coming across an incursion and replicating the results with his super tech to get rid of opposition. Getting the attention of the Beyonders, who cause natural incursions to happen. We find out a lot of this through a good version of Kang who wants to stop evil Kang with the help of our heroes. Leading to a final confrontation that also involves the Beyonders. The Beyonders are the ones who erase all Kangs from existence because they are simply too dangerous.
Watching Infinity War in the cinema was a unique experience. Thanos and his screen presence felt intimidating and nerve wracking. I have no faith in Marvel replicating this
Marvel will never be the same anymore. You can make expectational movies like guardians of the galaxy, but never a universe shattering event like the Infinity Saga. The saga took a decade to make and their were almost a lot of problems that could have stopped that from happening. For example, Age of Ultron was suppose to feature Thanos as the main antagonist of the film and rush the buildup that the MCU was setting up for Thanos. But luckily Kevin Feige told Disney to wait and be patient because it wasn’t time yet.
With Kang, the MCU is rushing his appearance and mistreating his character as nothing more then another obstacle. When he should be treated as a unavoidable threat that not even the top superheroes in the universe could hope to defeat. Just. Like. Thanos.
They shouldn’t even be showing him so much because now the audience feels no sense of fear when he goes on screen. When Thanos was even remotely seen, it was huge event. He’s treated as death itself.