NEW 400 LEGEND Straight-wall Cartridge
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- Опубликовано: 12 апр 2023
- As I predicted several months back, here comes another new straight-wall cartridge, Winchester’s 400 Legend.
As the name suggests, it spits a 40-caliber bullet. The initial 215-grain Power Point load is rated at 2,250 fps from a 20-inch barrel. This generates 2,416 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, roughly 400 f-p MORE than a 170-grain 30-30 bullet carries. But so what? Seriously, neither bullet is going to bounce off a deer, hog, or even hefty black bear. So let’s compare drops and wind deflection numbers on this episode of Ron Spomer Outdoors.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely. 
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Ive never seen so many companies making so many rounds to fill such a niche consumer base. Yet I cant find certain reloading bullets from product lines that have been around for decades.
New ammo sells new guns.
Right? It's like four states isn't it? I guess it's like anything else. People salivate over dissecting a new cartridge and spending a couple grand on a new hunting rig for their yearly hunt or two.
Seriously they need to knock it off with the excessive cartridge development and focus on making MORE ammunition. And better guns than the plastic junk they’ve been turning out.
Also fits in America's most popular rifle the ar-15
@@johna2008 Yeah but if you don't need to use a straight walled case there are much better hunting options from the AR platform that let you reach out way farther.
Ron you always do an awesome job. How about a side by side straight wall comparison, 50 Beo, 450 Bushmaster, 450, 444, 400 Legend , The buckhammr and 350 Legend. Now that would be a great vid.
You could even add .44 mag to that. I love the idea
375 win
He's just selling a new cartridge. The 400 Legend just fits in between the 350 Legand and 450 Bushmaster. Ho hum. But maybe I am missing something???
The 38.55 was/is a good round.
Comparing the 400 to the 30.30 is questionable the 30.30 is an older cartridge that has to be loaded for older guns. And the 30.30 is loaded with flat point bullets to work in tublar magazines so it is not using the most aerodynamic bullets possible. (unless both are using data with the Hornady FTX bullet?)(a comparison can be made, with 150 grain bullets, between the 30.30 and the 7.62x39)
A comparison with the 350 400 legend and 450 bushmaster would show that the same weight bullet will have about the same muzzle velocity and the larger diameter bullets will slow down faster at range.
A question is can a reloader replicate the factory velocities with comon powders? I assume the 400 can also use .40/10mm pistol bullets. (didn't watch to the end) (For example the 458 SOCOM uses .458 rifle bullets while the 450 Bushmaster uses .452 pistol diameter bullets.)
S&W might be interested since they chambered their X frame gun in 350 Legend for people who don't want to be beat to death with the 460 S&W round.
Still the 400 is another round that will probably work in the AR15 platforn (you know that rifle that has no hunting usefullness) and with heavier bullets might make it easier to load subsonic ammo for supressors that still have some lethality at subsonic velocities. But in non gas operated guns where you can use lead cast bullets good cheaper (seems there is no "cheap" anymore) fun can be had.
But if it is based on the 6.8 SPC, conversions might be harder since that cartridge uses an odd (old Russian?) case head diameter.
You forgot to mention the new 360 Buckhammer.
I wanted to do a 45 raptor bad, total custom, even a mag spacer. Will have to look up your 450 legend. Prefer .451/.452 over the antiquated .458.
In an AR this would be ideal for hogs and black bear at up close and personal ranges. Assuming of course they get the feed ramp and magazine geometry right for reliable feeding.
Awesome!
I immediately thought of the 401 Winchester.
My great grandfather used a marlin model 1893 chambered in .38-55 for deer and elk in Western Montana until his health declined and he couldn't hunt anymore in about 2010. I don't have a lot of experience with straight wall cartridges, having grown up shooting mainly .270 for deer and elk. But man that old marlin and .38-55 are absolutely incredible to shoot. By far one of my favorites.
If you reload cartridges straight wall brass does not seem to "stretch" as much so it does not have to be trimmed as often and the cases last longer.
I truly love the 38-55
There Are Two Different Lengths Of 38-55 chamber's, If Your Not Positive which One You Have. I'd Do A Chamber Cast. Also if It Doesn't Say " Proof " Steel Stick With Cast Lead, With or Without Gascheck. If you Do Have The Shorter Chamber you Can Use The. 375 Winchester Brass and It Will Last Forever, But If Your Using Black Powder you'll Need To Anell the Brass and open up the Flash Hole, unless you use a Duplex Load.
Surprising that the 38-55 and its modern rendition, the 375 Win. did not catch on. Especially the 375, which is a good do it all round. Very effective with the 200-250 grain bullets, decent trajectory and less recoil than the 444 and 45-70.
@@PassivePortfolios For sure. The .375 Win makes a very effective moose cartridge at closer ranges. If ammo or brass were more readily available I would make a play to try to buy one. Reloaded to its potential it's a very potent round.
The first thing that came to mind when I heard about this round was “hmmm, the second coming of the 401 self loader?”
Exactly! a rimless straight case using 200-250 grain bullets just like the old 401 winchester sl at about the same velocity. But 113 years later? The more things change.....
Wow I hadn't thought of that cartridge for a long long time but you're sure right.
The straight wall buzz is on fire 🔥
I don't need me a 400 yard rifle.. I'm hunting game inside 200 yards here in central PA! I have used the 350 Legend with success and have been there for another family members success!
Big bodied eight and ten point! Both complete pass through double lung heart shots. Both bucks piled up within 40 yards! Definitely impressive!!
That's from a lightweight carbine that points fast low recoil accurate and has readily available ammo even during the height of the pandemic!
That being said.. I'm not restricted!!! I used mine in 2020.. and have since bagged a decent 8 point with my 7mm-08 in 2021.. and a huge half rack three point with my 358 Winchester in 2022!
Those three cartridges worked flawlessly.. all deer fell after mad dashing lung and heart shots! What surprised me was the 358 Winchester knocked the half rack off it's feet during impact and he still mad dashed about 100 yards! With a hole in his heart ❤️
Deer are tough creatures
Favorite part about the three cartridges.. the 350 Legend was easy to find on line and Walmart gun shops from Outer Banks Pennsylvania and Minnesota during the height of the pandemic! The other two are from my favorite cartridge family.. smaller and bigger brothers of the 308 Winchester!
I don't need a Buckhammer or 400 Legend.. will I buy one.. maybe 🤔
That's the beauty of these days.. we have choices! My father would roll over in his grave.. at the thought of buying another deer rifle! He only ever carried one rifle.. a Winchester model 70 chambered in 30-06 Springfield! He ALWAYS said.. if you can't kill it with the aught six.. you shouldn't be hunting it!!!
Miss him dearly ❤️
There ain’t many things a man can’t fix with 700 dollars and a 30-06. Still rings true.
Luv ya, PA Brother. PA is famous for having the most variety of rifles to choose from, from the .30-30, .35 Rem, (my favorite) .444 Marlin, some .45-70's but not a lot all the way to .300 Win Mag. Also a favorite of PA brothers is the Rem 760 and 7600 pump rifles. Auto loaders were not allowed in PA and a 760 or 7600 in .308 made for some very quick follow-up if needed in those thick north central and southwest woods.
@@Mark-uq9km no doubt.. the 760 and the 7600 are know as the Pennsylvania Pump! A lot of 30-30 Winchester and 35 Remington fans.. that still to this day carry them in the woods!
I started hunting with a H&R single shot 20 gauge.. graduated to the 303 British a long time ago :)
I love my ‘72 REM. 760 in .30/06 for Fla. hogs! Also my Marlin in .35 REM.
@@raleighthomas3079 that two iconic firearms! My grandfather carried the 760 270 Winchester with the deer engraving. It's my oldest brothers now! Beautiful ❤️
I wished the .444 Marlin cartridge would be produced at reasonable prices in attainable quantities .
@@natetyler5565 up your man.
@@natetyler5565 Sorry, I'm going through menopause. Forgive me.
Flip a half grand and load your own.
Ron this is all old news to me back in the early 90s I was doing some wild catting. I came up with a 40 caliber using the 762/39 case blown out to 40 cal with 220 gr cast LBT mold bullets at 18 to 20 Bernell at 2300 fps and 10 MM pistol at 200 and 180 gr. It was done on a Ruger 30 carbine because the ARs weren't all the rage yet. It was very accurate and a pig killing monster. I called it a 40 PVC my only regret was not pursuing its retail possibility's. I still have a barrel and all the blue print workup on it .
I did the idea especially as a guy who does alot of 10mm and have a Ruger 30 sitting around
44 rem mag been there and done that!!! And still goin strong!!💪🇺🇸💯🦅
Ron, thanks for not leaving out the .401 WSL. I have a Winchester 1910 built in 1912. Anemic is not how i would describe it...I need to run my loads over the chrono to be sure, but on paper they put a 200 grain bullet at 2100 fps, and almost 2,000 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle.
Last year here in Missouri for firearms 2022 deer season my son bought a rifle in .350 Legend & took 2 deer with it. Great energy transfer, large wound channel & neither deer went more than 5-10 yards, if that. I was very impressed w/it’s performance & think it’s a winner for short range & hunting in the timber. Basically it lived up to its own definitions stated by Winchester and think that the .350 Legend may prove to indeed have “staying power”, and be with us hunters in the years to come. Especially in “Straight-Wall”, states and beyond like here at home as I’ve heard several guys that’s bought them & are pleased as punch with their performance. I think it may just be, here to stay! Great stuff Ron, as always!
Can you compare the 400 Legend to the 350 Legend and the 450 bushmaster? That is what it is contending with.
Thanks!
From a cursory glance 400 and 350 legend are very close while 450 bushmaster is a thumper more suited to elk and bear than deer and hog.
I don't see a reason to use 350 or 400 when you can use 450 and it doesn't recoil that much
@@johna2008
Yes, I know all about these cartridges. But to do a video vs a 3030 doesn’t help anyone.
@@seanflorian4653
Lot’s of kids are using the 350 Legend because there is minimal recoil vs the 450 Bushmaster.
I've never tried it but that 35 Remington from the Bonnie and Clyde days sounds just fine in the lever action
I have a Henry in it. It is awesome either with Lever Revolution FTX at 2225fps or Buffalo Bore 220grain Roundnose at 2200fps, really they're both 50fps less than claimed but still devastating. Will do Shiras Moose & Elk to 150 yds as well as deer to 250yds. The Henry is almost too pretty to hunt with, almost!!!
The 35 rem is a panty dropper Problem is $70/box “ if “ you can find em
Ron is such a wealth of information, and such a great representative of what we should be a hunters; polite and informed.
Turkey talk guy just showed this and it is Awesome, a real Blunder Bust, it really left divots in steel and Lit up the Gel ! (The Turkey's Opinion ).
The 400 Legend is a solution in search of a problem. The 350 Legend is perfect for deer, black bear, etc. in bolt action rifles. The newer, slightly more powerful 360 BH is perfect in lever action rifles and single shots. One problem with the new 400 Legend is recoil, that's why most people will stick with the 350 Legend. As for moose, elk, bear use, the 400's bullet does not have enough sectional density for adequate penetration.
I would just go with the 450bushmaster
To me the difference is what you are hunting. Elk, moose 450 bushmaster. Deer,hogs 350/400 legend.
Thank you for the video Ron, I really enjoy watching these. 👍👍
Looks like the new big brother to the 10mm and 40cal. Like the 350 legend was to 9mm and 380
If it can be reloaded with 10mm pistol bullets for cheaper plinking/practice, I could see this finding a comfy niche with the modern day hand loader who wants component commonality between his rifle and sidearm.
I've always went with compatibility for all my rifles and pistols it makes life much simpler especially reloading
Then 350 Legend would still be better since it's compatible with 9mm.... unless you're one of these goofy people who thinks 10mm is oh-so-great despite it costing a fortune to purchase.
10mm big advantage is it can be used for hunting besides defense, 9mm is not good for hunting. Winchester screwed up using 9mm bullets instead of .357 bullets.
@usa2012 as a 350 legend reloader I happen to know that 357 diameter bullets will work fine with starline brass. Winchester brass only likes the 355 bullets.
@@usa-rb5fi are you high? Winchester didn't use 9mm bullets in their 350 Legend. 🤦
Most of their bullets range from 140 grains to 180 grains.
Browning sells practice ammo that's loaded with 124 grain 9mm.
Otherwise, I don't know where you're getting this crap that you can't hunt with 9mm. Both 10mm and 9mm PISTOL bullets are equally garbage for hunting.
The point of the 350 Legend was to satisfy dumb hunting regulations requiring straight wall cartridges with minimal recoil.
I understand that some states require straight walled cartridges, but think I’ll stick with my 35 REM. I’m glad that I stocked up some time back on reloading components. I’d hate to see a forced obsolescence of the 35 REM.
The 35 Remington is a dandy for sure! The 360 Buckhammer will definitely help the 35 Remington out!
I'm sure companies that load for the Buckhammer will kick out more 35 Remington ammo due to using the same bullets!
I recently inherited a rifle in 35 Remington. My dad’s favorite rifle, though not really best for shooting out West, he did manage to take an elk in New Mexico with the old Marlin 336. It’ll do the job within its range! But now I can’t find ammunition for it. I’m hoping that the 360 Buckhammer will renew interest in the venerable 35 Remington!
@@dr.froghopper6711 I have hope that eventually there will be some new .35 rem made some where. The problem is there are a lot of perfectly good 35 rem rifles out and the gun companies rather come up with a new cartridge for a brand new rifle and that way they sell new guns and right now it is not that hard to sell ammo.
Why do some states require straight walled cartridge cases?
@@walterhammond290 Without looking it up, many states either completely outlawed ''high powered' rifles that had of course bottle neck cartridges or restricted there use, particularly in the midwest. For many years in Illinois for example it was 12 ga slug hunting. Some of the stated started to allow pistols for hunting that had straight walled cartridges and also most traditional black powder rounds were straight walled also. Somehow this has all evolved to allow some smokeless straight walled rifle rounds. As as Ron S noted some states still have length restrictions and I think they are still trying to stop them from being ''high powered''.
My personal take is that this can turn an AR into a more multipurposed gun.
The 40-65 was s neat 40 cal, the 40-82 was really neat in the 1886 Winchester.
Thanks Ron for the informative review. I just purchased a 350 Legend for my Granddaughter and was thinking of one for myself but held off. Here in New York we have only been able to rifle hunt whitetail a few short years (except for Adirondack Mountains). So when they passed rifle hunting after a lifetime of boring shotgun slug hunting, I and my boys made up for lost time and accumulated many deer rifles in a variety of calibers and am having fun taking whitetail with them. I think I'll add 400 Legend to the list. I predict it will at least equal and possibly slightly surpass the 350L in popularity. Especially for the Elmer Keith worshippers who like their calibers to start with a 4.
I have a 338 marlin express that I can’t get ammunition anymore even though it’s less than ten years old. Beware!!
Last season I decided to run a 215gr SWC .452 cast lead bullet in my muzzle loader. On top of 100 GR of powder. Should be in the 1300-1400 fps range. The neck shot buck doesn't really count, the double lung/heart shot doe. Made it 35-45 yards. Those bigger holes have the advantage of not needing to rely on proper expansion to get the deed done. I can see the preference from both sides of the spectrum. Big lead still does the deed though 👍
I see the black bear hunters of the north east, finding a welcomed home for this caliber. I know they already have a fondness for the 35 Remy.
Great history and introduction, Ron. Looking forward to seeing your future comparison videos.
Spending my Sunday morning watching your videos and getting a little educated lol. Great way to spend any day. Thanks for the awesome videos!
I think that a really good comparison would be the 350 legend, 400 legend, 360 buck hammer and the 450 bush master. That is a comparison that I would really be interested in seeing. I am personally interested in the 350 legend so I'm really anxious to see these compared. As always thank you for all of your hard work and knowledge. I enjoy your videos greatly.
That should be the 450 Bush master.
I'm working on that video right now.
As far as the larger diameter bullets, I like to turn to the Taylor knockout coefficient. Permanent crush cavities and the like. Request for a video with these new boutique cartridges and run the TKO on the newcomers vs. Things like the 444 and 45-70?
Agreed...why almost no one compares TKO figures I'll never know!
@@ragnarragnarsson3128 because TKO is basically worthless for 99% of hunting scenarios, something that the creator of the formula sheepishly admits to. Taylor created TKO in an attempt to quantitatively compare the ability of large bore rounds, using solid bullets, to knockout an elephant when they are fired into its skull and miss the brain. It wasn’t intended to be applicable to any other hunting scenario or ballistic comparison.
@Rusty Shackleford Read John Linebaugh may he rest in peace.
@@ragnarragnarsson3128 I have. I’m lucky enough to own several Linebaugh’s and I’ve shot even more built by the man himself as well as pistolsmiths that built guns along similar blueprints. I fully believe that a big heavy bullet pushed in the “butter zone” of velocity punches far above its weight when its compared to its paper ballistics. I also know that a .45/70 trapdoor load and a .223 Remington don’t perform the same on game even though kinetic energy is approximately equal. What I’m saying here is that TKO has too many issues that you have to handwave aside to be valid comparison tool for something as nuanced as the performance of a bullet in a hunting scenario. The formula falls apart when scrutinized, especially with edge cases.
Case in point:
Let’s compare KE, Momentum, and TKO .44 Rem Mag 1044, 48, 20
.460 Wby 7218, 182, 83
12ga 3” Brenneke slug 2873, 107, 77
So a 12ga slug with 62% less energy and 41% less energy will perform within 7% of a .460 Weatherby magnum simply because it’s so much larger in diameter?That’s before you consider bullet construction at all and discounting the influence of expansion since that is ignored in TKO.
Then I’d be remiss if I didn’t list the same numbers for:
Fast pitch softball (women’s) 74, 42, 254!
You don’t want to see the number for a bowling ball.
Whatever the yardstick of comparison we should be striving for is, TKO isn’t it.
Good video Ron, looking forward to your range work with them!
I love a history lesson. More power/energy/velocity is the answer to everything nowadays.
What interests me is the potential to create a .400 legend revolver that can also fire 10mm and .40 S&W. Having a hunting pistol that can double as a defensive revolver has always been a point of interest.
Yes I was thinking same, like a desert eagle or revolver
I was like 400 blah blah, till you brought this up. Now I'm interested. 😊
The throat erosion would be sooo bad
@fishlife1013 good point. You'd have to have a chamber adapter or some weird sht.
@Wolf In Wolves Clothing. its very possible and could definitely work but its kinda one of those things your not saving to much money as 40sw,10mm,400 legend aren't gonna be cheap
Enjoying the content, please keep it up. I would like to see how the 300 HAM'R compares to these cartridges and your thoughts on it. Thanks
Joe
Wow what a wealth of knowledge. I stumbled across this video and was in awe with all the info. Great job 👍
Manny, Ron tends to be very thorough in his info deliver. Always a good listen for a gun guy or gal.
Great Job Ron!
I love your Cartridges Videos.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Wouldn't it be a treat to hunt once with Ron just to pick his brain. I'm sure most of us could learn a lot. How about just a South Dakota Pheasant hunt with Ron and Covey!!!! I really like Covey!!!
The 405 Winchester was an even more oddball bullet diameter.
I think this 400 is going to do great!
Think that's Teddy's African gun...?!
The .405 WCF uses .411-.412" bullets. Not so oddball, really. I use cast lead bullets for the .41 Magnum in my .405s with reduced loads for practice/plinking.
@@garyK.45ACP Those are the only two .41s I can think of though.
I can't wait to see what it can do with the copper bullets on the market
@@shooter-vx7xy .411 Hawk, .400 Whelen, and .411 JDJ. The .414 Super Mag is usually a revolver or single shot pistol round but could could obviously be chambered in a rifle too
I think it's great to see new cartridges being produced. To me there isn't a bad cartridge and it's sad to see some great ones like the triple duece dying off. Every shooter has different needs and conditions and one of these new rounds could completely fill a nitch like none other.
Great video Ron.
Dude, the walmart in my town actually has 2 boxes of Remington 222 on the shelf!
Sad to lose the .222 and 6mm, the .257 Roberts is on shaky ground but I won't sell mine.
I'm definitely looking forward to those comparison videos.
A friend and I were working on this before Winchester. We found we weren't the first! It began in our case when I noticed that 30 Rem brass could be necked up to seat some 40 caliber muzzleloader bullets that I had. The friend is still playing with it, has chambering reamers. I had a switch barrel Savage 340 in mind!
The Turkey's Opinion already posted a 400 Legend test and review.
Oh man! Look at you!
No mention of the King of straight walled cartridges, the 45-70.? it's only 146 years old and STILL going strong!
Not legal in the straight wall discussion in most of those states, because its case length exceeds the maximum.
It's legal for me in Ohio and my go to favorite
@@bobbygrimm4123
It's illegal in Michigan and a go to court favorite there.
@@bustabass9025 that's a shame because we are allowed up to a 50-90
Just watching Quigley Down Under and that's what I carry is a 1874 sharps
Can’t wait for more on this one!
Looking forward to the upcoming comparison, and performance test video.
I have a 375 Winchester and this new round sounds like it will perform identically. What's old is new again!
Your logic is.... ENESCAPEABLE!👍 IN 1985 I bought my first rifle a Marlin 375 for $195 new. 200gr factory are best for factory ammo. I got into reloading. Bought some 255gr Barnes original bullets. Tried them in my water milk jug tests.. no expansion at all. Bummer... Even tried putting a piece of plywood after 1st jug. Crap. My old retired friend who I call him: THE GUN ZEALOT 😁he hollow pointed them to 236gr. Finally shot a good size NH buck... Deadly. The mushroom looks soooo awesome!!!! After thorough cleaning the 375 with copper solvent over 2 days. At 100 yards they are touching! 😁 The 375 is awesome! 👍
My GUN ZEALOT friend named those bullets: Wally's Custom Lung Rippers!!!!!! 😂😂😂😂
THE GUN ZEALOT found out when making the hollow points. Barnes simply took the bullet casing, shoved lead in it, squeezed the tip. So!!! The tip was much thicker than the rest of the bullet=impossible for it to expand. I contacted Barnes.... They said to use wet newspapers!! 🙄🙄🙄. Water jugs always made bullets expand in 3rd, 4th, 5th, or even 6rh jug.
My load for those Custom Lung Rippers..... Reloader 7, 36grs. That's what my rifle enjoys. 😁
@@STICKBOW-STEVE imagine the stir if they actually shorted the 375 Winchester to make it legal in straight wall states.. and called it the 375 Deer Slayer!
The 360 Buckhammer would have competition and the lever action would also receive even more attention!
All that being said.. I truly believe that there's more money to grab by marketing towards the AR and inexpensive bolt action crowd! Which to me makes sense!
That being said.. they definitely heard the lever action crowd.. and I know they'll sell! Which will definitely stir up another new cartridge or two to come out!
So I wonder what is next!?
Funny we developed this exact round 4 years ago. Utilizing 6.8 basic brass. Stared off as 10mm ARMAG then changed the name to 40 GPC. You can look it up and find Quick Load data for it too. We got 200gr bullets for muzzleloaders like the hornady SST a tad over 2200 fps.
Exactly. My question is why Winchester is limiting the pressure to only 45,000psi? The 6.8 SPC is a 58,000psi cartridge and Bruce & Mark (et al) run the 40 GPC out to the same pressures. We are talking a difference of 200fps in speed between the two pressures.
@Kesrick probably the same reason remington crippled the 6.8 SPC. They just rushed it out without researching all variables.
In the late 80s, I lived in South Mississippi. I had been hunting elk and mule deer with long actions my whole life, but I realized it was pointless in the brush. So i bought the ugliest Remington model 81 in America, and hunted with the 35 Remington autoloader for 3 years until we finished the project and i could move back out west. In the brush, where 50yds is a long shot, the 35 Remington is a magic cartridge. I took a lot of partial cover shots that were VERY risky, and it never failed me. (Shots I would never take today, age has brought wisdom, I don't need the meat to survive so I don't take a shot at a maybe, but I was young and the whitetails were overpopulated, so I felt like I had to harvest an animal every time I went to the woods)
The 400 legend sounds very similar to the 35 Remington. It has the numbers to be a great brush gun round.
Thanks Ron!
N.H. just did this, allowing straight wall centerfire in shotgun only counties. Very limited cartridge selection and weirdly, lever action only rifles allowed. BUT it's happening here too !
No bolt or single shot?
@@travisrolison9646 weirdly, no. Lever action only !
And let's not forget about the 375Win. I would be interested to see that comparison.
I truly thought they'd shorten the 375 Winchester to the restricted length and call it the 375 Deer Slayer
To me.. that would definitely generate a lot of attention! But honestly.. they're not interested in making a new lever action cartridge. It's more about a semi automatic or bargain bolt action rifle!
The potential profit is greater going that route.. I suppose
Please read my lengthy comment to Zach2288👍
Third Blackie Boy.... U had a lengthy comment earlier. Excellent... I told my PA hunting buddy to read that! 👍
Thanks. Very informative and interesting as usual.
Great video Ron! I'm back working at Brownells as a Gun Tech/Retail Assoc. I'll be looking for this 400 Legend. Always thumbs up from the 641...
These new straight wall cartridges feel like the juiced up handgun calibers we have always wanted. Most of these new cartridges can be chambered for revolvers too 👌
The Buckhammer would be more suited for revolvers than the rimless Legends, which would/do require moon clips. Those long cylinders also reduce the ability to "pocket carry"😉.
The AR platform, or box magazine rifles in general, are the niche these rimless straightwalls really fill.
I bought a 500 S&W magnum H&R rifle because it was on sale, $50 less than 45-70 & 444 Marlin, and it fulfilled the "primitive weapon" requirements of my state, only to find the retailer didn't have ammo. The first box of ammo I got on line ate the sale price right up, but the gun shoots great and I took my first "primitive season" deer with it a few years back. I have not considered buying a revolver in that caliber because the price is 4× more that I have EVER paid for a handgun.
S&W has chambered their X frame revolver in 350 Legend.
@@frosty3693 AND it requires moon clips
Gubmint approved.....
I agree with you for the most part. I just really enjoy handgun hunting, and I think revolvers are sexy af. A 10" barrel revolver would also be shorter and lighter than an AR.
Sounds like a fun new round. Hopefully Winchester can do a better job on their powder mix. I’ve never had any luck with any of the box ammo they make.
Amen to that! Winchester Staball 6.5 shows real promise as a powder though.
Have always had good luck with Winchester hunting ammo from the 90's into the early 2000's. Now I have been reloading for so long I don't tend to rely on factory as much as I did. Still will pick up win 30-30 if it isn't stupid priced. Never a hiccup on my front
I personally just acquired a 375 Winchester and it is a dandy at that . Bring it back out in force Winchester was a little early on it in the 70's.
Please read my lengthy replies to zach2288
Great quick review. Thank you
I've been deer hunting for over 30 years and I have used many different calibers with mixed results. So several years ago I started hunting with a 350 legend and wow I've been absolutely impressed with the results. All of the deer , may it have been a big doe or a monster buck I have dropped every one of them like a bag of potatoes. In the past using typical deer hunting rounds and even hitting the vitals spot on, they sometimes drop and other times they run for a little ways before going down. As a shooter when it comes to accuracy I consider myself to be average and at hundred yards or less I can place three rounds from a 350 legend on a quarter and that's with a cheap scope mounted on an economy deer rifle. Point being, it's a forgiving round that has very little kick to it and gets the job done. Now the only drawback is that it's not good for long range shooting past 100 yards due to significant bullet drop because it is what it is, a straight walled cartridge. So I'm very excited about the 400.
The 400 doesn't look that promising to me. It looks more like a gimmick for people endlessly chasing "more energy". The BC of the 400 Legend is as bad, if not worse, than the hunting rounds made for the 350 Legend, so it's going to drop off just as hard after 100 yards, even if it is still carrying a little more energy out to 200 yards.
@@Chester_Oliver so is 350 Legend... and it has already been verified to be sufficient for white tail. So why is 400 legend needed?
The 400 is more interesting to me than the 350.
@@jasono2139 The 30-30 has proven itself to be able to harvest moose so why is a 300 mag. needed?
@@russellkeeling4387 because how else will uncle Billy bob let everyone know what a He-man he is if he hasn't dislocated his shoulder while hunting moose?
They messed up with the 350 legend when they chose a .355 diameter bullet instead of the .357 diameter bullet. They also chose too slow of a twist rate. I have a 350 Legend pistol upper for my AR-15 for protection against bears when I am in the woods.
Russian Bear or Panda Bear ?
For hunting in the woods I have a 44 magnum and 45-70 gov barrels for my encore pretty much covers it for the woods for me , I’ll be honest I can’t keep lately with these new cartridges coming out interesting cal though many thanks Ron
Great review! Thanks for sharing!
400 Legend
That out of a Bond Arms lever action could be a great combo
Wonder if you could use 10mm in it? same parent case, same bullet diameter
It’s legendary how long those 2 boxes of 350 have been collecting dust on the Walmart ammunition cabinet shelf
Let's see in a few years how much of a Legend it becomes.
Many said the same thing about the 350 Legend a few years ago. It seems to be doing pretty well.
Seems kind of pointless. You have the light 350 legend, the heavy hitting 450 bushmaster and a 360 for lever guns.
What can the 400 offer?
My 350 legend just collects dust. Not impressed at all but I gave it a try.
@@larryeddings3185 I see the ammo on shelves everywhere nobody buys it.
@@horsefly1020 Im in MI and it seems pretty popular here.
The one shooting range i go to a occasionally had a decent number of people using 350 legend.
Gun store said it and the 450 are popular and they sell a bunch around deer season
This cartridge will do amazing for the reloader. A lot of high BC bullets available in 40 cal. I’m anxious to get one and try it out.
Huh? ...what 40 cal bullets have a "high BC bullet"? ...5.56, 6.8 SPC, and .224 Valkyrie will beat anything you can pick that's available in .40.
I like your channel keep it up you bring up a lot of good stuff
I'm going to hold off on this caliber until I get a chance to try the 500 Extra Legendary & the 600 SSELD (Super Short Extra Legendary). If I can get my hands on it, I'll also try the 375 Buck Flayer-Hammer Improved. I'm sure I missed a few new straight walled calibers, but, I'll try to keep up. (laughs in .357Max & 444 Marlin).
444 marlin not MI legal though. So 450 bushy is what I use. Works well for deer
Not everyday I come across a 357max user. Nice gun.
Hopefully this takes off as hypothetically one could go from this to a 224 Valkyrie or 6.8 spc with just a barrel swap.maybe a modification to the magazine follower will be needed. Hopefully howa makes one for the mini action.
Why? ...350 Legend already fits the AR platform all the same.
My Howa grendel & 6 ARC are a dream!
Always liked 40+ calibers. The old 41rem mag is one I have no experience with. I do know the 44rrm mag. is a fantastic round in a Winchester 92. I'd like to hunt the big 5 in Africa with one.
Ron, Great video as always 👍
Hi Ron, I can't help notice the similarities of the 350 legend and the 400 legend in comparison to the old Winchester 351 WSL and the 401WSL, the case dimensions are different in areas like the rim and there are differences in bullet diameter but these new cartridges seem like a spin on some very old ones they had tried near the turn of the century.
@@Chester_Oliver Chester, I think most of us assume too much about "modern" powders being "light years" better than old. Single-base nitrocellulose (4,600-degrees F.) and double base nitrocellulose with nitroglycerine (5,300-degrees F.) are the basic types. Triple base with nitroguanidine added are rare. New powders are mostly tweaks of the basic ingredients or construction (stick, vs. ball vs flake) with more or less surface area and coatings to change burning rate. In general, fast burning powders for lighter, easier-to-get-moving bullets and slower burning powders for heavier bullets with more inertia to overcome. It isn't as if modern powders doubled or quadrupled energies over older types. The 401 WSL of 1910 was likely loaded to a low Max. av. chamber pressure like the 33,500 psi given the 35 Remington of 1908. Meanwhile, the 30-06 of, duh, 1906, was allowed 60,000 psi. These pressures reflect the rifles more than the cartridge constraints. 1925's 270 Win., the 30-06 case necked down, was allowed 65,000 psi. Auto-loading rifle is most likely what kept 401 WSL pressures low.
Ron , I really enjoy watching your shows . Appreciate your ballistic comparisons . This new 400 Legend will make a vary good Black Bear cartridge. My Question : Why not compare it to the already established 450 Bushmaster ??? Note ; I hunt with a 444 Marlin. Love that round . Ontario Canada.
Same question i have , i wish he would had compared it to a 450 bushmaster that is hunting compliant for straight wall carteidge states.
ummmm,,, probably because it is a .40 caliber slug not a .45 caliber slug.
Only so much time to compare in these videos. I felt most hunters had a good "feel" for what the 30-30 does, so that comparison puts 400 performance in perspective. Fewer have experience with the 450 Bush. That's for another vid!
In 2019 when the 350 came out, I was excited to start tinkering with reloading for my young daughters to take deer with it here in Ohio. WOW did it ever pay off. Every deer we've pulled the trigger on, goes less than 50yrds. I bought a barrel for my Encore in 350, hunt with it and have taken a few big deer the last few years and does a great job.
I've always thought if a bullet manufacturer could recreate a Nosler Accubond or Partition type rifle bullet in .400" with a high BC, would be the the best of both worlds between the 350 and the 450. With the 400 BC's still in the low .2's, its still going to do the job on deer to 200yrds and in. But a bonded 200-220gn with BC's in the .3's would blow peoples minds in straight-walled states. My $.02. Keep up the great, informative content Ron. Love watching
The 400 Legend bullet shown here is already a 215 grain bullet with a 0.206 BC... there is physically no way to make a 400 Legend bullet with a .3 BC unless it's a massively heavier bullet and will be much slower (sub-sonic).
What you're talking about is on par with believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy... They're fun to think about, but do not exist in reality.
It reminds me of the 10mm Magnum developed by AMT, only longer.
Tha Turkey"s Opinion put out a great video yesterday using a SAAMI spec ar and ammo. Shooting gell (cool) got 2485 ft lbs with a 200 grn bullet. Fun.
I think 10mm win mag sounds better.
@@natetyler5565 just not by winchester.
Thanks for yet another good video Ron. Well here we go again. It never seems to end. And I thought I was finished building AR rifles for new cartridges, lol. I shoot hogs here in Texas with AR rifles, 7.62x39, 300 Ham'r, 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster. 400 is a real nice fit between the 350 and 450. When the 350 Legend came out I thought it was brilliant, still do, and didn't waste any time building a 350 chambered AR rifle and pistol. I'm a sucker for new "oddball" cartridges in the AR platform for shooting hogs. I will probably build one, always build an AR pistol as a companion to a rifle, so at least two in the 400 Legend. The only obstacle I see could be the price of ammo for the 400, ammo cost for the 450 is high compared to the other AR cartridges I use so I don't shoot it as much, but we shall see. 350 ammo was cheap when it came out, but has risen dramatically, luckily I bought a BUNCH when it was cheap. Oh, the velocity numbers for the 30-30 seemed a bit low to me, but I've been wrong before.
Love my hammer(135gr speer bonded) here in Texas for hogs too. She mat he's a 30 30 also in the 18" barrel.
@@jimadams9874 I love the Ham'r as well, great little cartridge, probably the most versatile and balanced of all the AR cartridges. I haven't used the 135 gr Speer Bonded yet, but it is the next round I want to try. I have only used the 130 gr Ham'r Hot Core and it does pretty well on hogs. I really like the balance of speed, bullet weight and energy of the 130 gr, plus it is the cheapest to shoot. I'm not sure what the last part about 30-30 meant.
Gotta hand it to you Ron start the videos with your charts is way ahead of the norm!
I found out about the 400 Legend after visiting the SAAMI website a few months ago and was excited to learn that it shares the case head size with the 6.8 SPC. I already own a Rock River Arms Coyote Carbine in 6.8 so all I will need is an upper receiver. When I eventually get one I will set it up for short range "brush" gun for deer hunting and top it with a red dot.
Why not just build a 450 Bushmaster ? Once you have an upper all you would have to buy extra is a bolt head, about $40. I've been building them for over 10 years now and every other straight walled cartridge is an also ran in an AR.
@@hardball107 I have a 450 in a bolt action. This 400 ought to suite my needs just fine. And hopefully less expensively than the 450.
@@randallkelley3600 I imagine projectiles in 400 will be much easier to get for a good price too since it shares rounds with the 40 S&W and 10mm auto
There should NEVER be a restriction on cartridge "SHAPE!"
Or length.....
Only the yankee states..........🤦♂️🤦♂️
It makes zero sense that I can shoot a .270, 30-06, 7mm-08, .308, etc., in a 15" Encore Pistol in those areas, but if it's in a rifle format, it must be straight walled. That is just stupid. A state rep. said it was to limit the distance capabilities, but, damn, we make 300+ yard shots, consistently, with the 7mm-08, through a 15" bull barrel, with the Encore pistol platform.
@@JohnThreeTwelve Im in NY, and we can use anything you want.....
@@will7its I'm in AL, and same here. We just like to hunt some other states from time to time, and some of the laws up north are just insane.
@@JohnThreeTwelve Love Bama. We used to be shotgun only and then they lost their minds one year and now we can use pretty much anything except 22's so I guess there is hope for us all....lol
Thank you. It was interesting as always.
Great video. Very informative
Nice enough, I guess. I just use a Ruger American Ranch in .450 Bushmaster...bang, flop. Large number of load choices, too.
My guess is that the arrival of a .400 Legend means the .350 Legend has had enough market acceptance to stick around.
I feel like what's the point when you want to step over the 350 you got for the 450 BM. What's the point of stopping halfway?
Great video Ron! The only thing I think you may have overlooked is the 450 Bushmaster. I think Winchester is bringing this out to steal some of that market and to keep Remington from taking too much Straight Wall market share.
Im not sold on the 400L....but then again I had doubts with the 350L and now its one of my favorite hog hunting cartridges.
After my oldest daughter's first deer hunting success. I asked her if she wanted HER own deer rifle. We went with a good deal on a youth model 243. Then for Labor day. I couldn't pass up a 350 L AR upper.
Went to let her fire both and she preferred the Legend. Haven't put anything down with it yet. Perhaps this coming season will change that
350 or 400 legend each sound like a match made in heaven for an encore pistol.
Yeah 400 legend seems cool
4 am ?
If I was newer to firearms and cartridges for hunting at woods distances for deer, bear, and elk, this one would be the ticket.
When Winchester introduced the 375 Win they were planning to come out with a 40 caliber for the BB 94 if the 375 did well. It didn't so the 40 was still born. Nice to see a .40 in a bit of a different format make it over 30 years later.
Wouldn't the 30 Carbine be a straight wall cartridge?
Yes
I've seen many a cartridge come and go over my life, Ron. Some were good, others not. And many of them were just a step sideways at best. I'm not about to jump on a new cartridge because it's new. Why should I be in a hurry to pick up a new Winchester (or Remington or Hornady) cartridge when the ammo makers can't even keep up with what they already have? I'll give it 10 years. If it's still around and has proven itself by then, I'll give it another look. Wake me up when we get there. Thanks for the vid.
Loved my old 30/30 lever gun but had to sale them during hard times. Last year my finances improved and i could once again invest in hunting gear. Omg the price of a 30/30 lever gun. So i studied and considered what i really needed. I ended up with a savage in 350 legend. Wow , it's gonna stay till i gone from this earth. The deep forest where i hunt never afford you more than a hundred yard shot , and nothing will walk of with this round at that distance.
I enjoyed this video and all that you do. I bought a 350 Legend when it 1st arrived on scene. I did use a Winchester 94' 30-30 to shoot pigs before the 350 arrived. IMO, to compare ballistics on these calibers is splitting hairs. The ONLY reason I bought a Legend had nothing to do with ballistics, but EVERYTHING to do with platform. A pig gun in an AR rifle with 10 shots(or more), faster than a lever gun is what I wanted and got. Ballistics is important, but sometimes its not how hard you hit em', its how many can you hit and how many times can you hit em'!
Maybe they should concentrate on making cartridges that are already on the market and are hard to find before bringing out something like this.
The only thing that worries me about this new cartridge is bullet shape. Where the 30-30 has a round nose, this is pointed. When you get down below 1700 fps, will it still deform reliably? Of course its already 40 caliber but still.
Ron always says a through and through is best, hope this helps
@@ethimself5064 sure it is but ya still want that bullet to open up to increase the tissue displacement/disruption. It’s obviously a different story with a properly designed hard cast flat nose bullet because it’s designed with a larger flat meplat. Those pointy noses have got to blow open!
@@danielrobey1759 Took another look and it does have a staller semi round lead tip. I'm sure that Ron will do more on this one. Perhaps there are some others in here that show this or at least rest with ballistic gel at hunting ranges.
When the 500 legend comes out I want one
10mm super magnum
I Iike your name better.
10mm magnum already exists
Wait wait , the .350 is the legend....now .400. I love how they attach the "legend" part.
My grandfather had a model 8 remington. Why, I don't know, but I used to love that rifle and wanted to shoot it, but never did.. He mostly used an auto 12 browning shotgun for everything. He trapped a lot and used a 22 magnum pistol to dispatch all types of varmints and such!
My son who's in his Medical Residency now just purchased a 450 bushmaster AR. He loves big calibers for some reason!
I'm after a 16" barreled .350 legend which I think Ruger makes in a hunting rifle with a synthetic stock, etc.. I'm considering putting a red dot scope on it or a 1 x 6 rifle scope and leave it at 1 unless I need the 6 power to shoot between tree limbs or sticks. I can't imagine taking a shot over 50 yards in the woods here in Southern Indiana.
I'll be moving from Nevada to Iowa and while the straight wall market may be a niche one, it is an important one. I can't use any of my normal hunting rifles (270 win and 300 win mag). Iowa does have the .188 restriction BUT it did grandfather in cartridges such as .444 marlin and 45-70 gov. It'll be interesting to see how this cartridge does but for now I think I will go with something more proven.
Well I want a .429 bullet, straight wall 1.8" case length, .308win case head. Should be able to push a 240gr to nearly 2400fps.
I cut down a .308win case and put it up a .44 mag die, seated a 240gr xtp for fun, was carrying around showing guys, I call it the ".429 Goldilocks" because I think it would be just right...
Look up 44 automag
@Jeramy Whitwell virtually same case length as a .44 rem mag, that doesn't do anything a .44 rem mag won't do, except work in a proprietary auto loader, basically a rimless .44 rem mag.
Why I stated 1.8" case length, maximum allowed by our overlords for use on whitetails in Michigan's limited firearm zone, more powder capacity.
@@Chester_Oliver Yeah, I ironed out the neck some with an expander die to get the length I wanted, I should have used a .30-06 case, but it was just for grins anyhow, I have no plans of creating this.