How do you avoid over fermenting your artisan sourdough bread? | Foodgeek Baking
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- Experiment Time! Today I’m testing how much you should ferment your artisan sourdough bread to get the most amazing bread! Learn how to do a perfect bulk fermentation every time!
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#sourdoughbread #highhydration #bulkfermentation 
Хобби
Imagine you’re tied to a chair blindfolded. You hear a door creek open and someone call out, “experiment time.” The horror!!
😂🤣
@@nutritionadviceclinic992 oh, the possibilities
Time for an hour of "experiment time" special cut edition
He’s going to stab you for this one.
I have had trouble with the timing/size of when the bulk fermentation is ready for shaping. This has helped me understand.
Thanks
Very helpful video! Thank you ❤
It would be great to see an experiment video on the correct amount of proofing too, once it's in the basket. Like proofing at room temperature, leaving it out to proof for a short while and then putting it in the fridge, putting it straight in the fridge for 8 to 10 hours and straight in the fridge for up to 24 hours.
Still have no idea why this channel doesn't have 10x the number of subscribers. Best bread channel on youtube - period. He DOES ALL THE EXPERIMENTS SO WE DON'T HAVE TO! Thank you so much!
Thank you
@@Foodgeek i wanted to know if you would do any experiment with Poolish & Bigga I know your experiments are top quality workmanship if you don't want to do this experiment all is Cool with me have a wonderful Friday late evening bye from Canada #YSW where I follow you 💯 from
I'm glad you made this episode. I did my own experiment on overfermentation a few weeks ago because I was troubleshooting my loaves.
It's incredible. every time I have some issue with my sourdough bread you make a video the week after showing exactly what to improve. Thank you so much!!!
OMG your videos are soooo relaxing! The music, shots of you scoring, baking, and cutting it open is just so good. I've subscribed! :)
Thank you for everything that you do Sune! Great info!
Side by side comparisons is such a great addition!
Superb content!
Tanks, as always :)
Thank you Sune, I found this very interesting. I usually go for 50% rise but it is very difficult to judge, this has made me aware not to overdo the rise. I would have like to see photos of all the risen doughs though.
Are you ready to see some over fermented dough? Man! You are such a geek! Fantastic. Really interesting results. Nice to know that I’ve a little more flexibility in fermentation than the 25% I’m aiming for all the time. Thanks Sune
Thank you. This was great! I tested two loaves the other day. One in the fridge and the other out in my cold pantry and this video explains why my loaf from the pantry was so flat. Great for soup!
I'm at peace knowing I'll never make a perfect beautiful sourdough loaf.
There's just too many variables.
But a couple of months ago I got so frustrated with my finished dough that I was about to toss it in the trash can (it was an over proofed sticky loose blob) but I thought since I was going to trash it anyway I just stuck it in the oven to see what would happen.
I got bread.
Delicious but ugly misshaped bread.
My stomach didn't care. 😀
But I still love these experiments and have cut down the prep time because of them, so thank you!!
Yes, I learned a lot, I like your method of letting it rise at room temperature and then putting it in the fridge only once. I think I've been slightly over-proofing before shaping. Thanks for this experiment.
Great vid, your experiments are simple in the sense that you test one element (which is good), and very effective and well edited.
Great experiment! Helped me a lot. I think this might be the reason for my lack of oven spring
Excellent video. This one included the test for the starter (2X to 4X) as well as that nice bulk ferment rise. THAT explains my flatter loaves. I'll be cutting the bulk ferment back to 25% to 50%.
Thanks.
I revisit this video every other week when I think my bread didn’t rise enough. I love the videos Sune, keep them coming
I've been letting my dough double in size, so I'll be stopping that right away. Thanks for the videos. I always wear my "Score" shirt when I bake. Love the merch.
swatts1195 same here!
Nice vids as always. You go over a lot of detail. You make baking easier to understand and very practical less magical. Good stuff.
Very interesting. I have been way over frementing. Ken Forkish book says to go 2-3 times the volume. No wonder my holes are small. Very nice to understand. Thank you.
In times of evidence based medicine, thank you for introducing us to the evidence based bakery! Best regards!
Evidence based medicine.... oxymoron.
@@michaeljordan215 Unfortunately, in this day and age we still have issues with that. Because treating someone for a long time is better than curing them outright.
I love you videos!!!! I've watched a lot of them and I always learn something new! Bravo!
For a long time I've been making the same mistake by over fermenting my breads. The taste was always great but the shape!!!! I also found it a lot more difficult to shape the dough when the bulk went out the window. Still I didn't realize what the problem was. Thanks for helping me fix it. I've made 2 loaves since your video came out, and they are just perfect!.
Total novice at bread but after watching this video I made my best dutch oven boule yet...... didn’t flatten as usual.... 🙏 thanks for the lesson..🙂🙂
Another fab video! Thank you 🙏🏼
Great video! Thank you for sharing
Great video - I have been struggling with oven spring, and I think over fermenting has been an issue.
Another experiment that might be interesting is protein percentage. I’ve been using some pretty cheap flour with quite a low protein percentage that I think is contributing
Your videos are pleasantly audible, watchable and helpfull. Sorry for my english Bro. Congrats.
Thank you so much for making this video this is the one thing that I finally found out was messing with my oven spring
Hi Sune, I love your content! my sourdough game improved 100% from watching your videos. In this video I was hoping for some visual cues that I've hit over fermentation. Also, what you suggest to make sure this doesn't happen. I do agree that there are so many variables that contribute--also some doughs bear over fermentation better than others.
Between you and Josh, I feel like I'm working on my PhD in sourdough bread baking. I can't thank you enough for all you've taught me during the pandemic thus far. You're doing a great job.
I agree.
Another comment, I recently did two loafs with the same process using 100% fermentation and then kept them in the fridge for 18 hours one and 66 hours the other one. The 68 hours came out much flatter, but wider, so it did have a lot of nice crum with more crust. But the taste was an incredibly different, the taste of the 66 hours one was just unbelievable. Never tasted a bread so good ever! You should do an experiment like this and do a taste test at the end. May be bring a few friends or family to vote blind (not knowing what final proofing cold time they are tasting) in the taste.
Note: the 66 hour fridge time grew a lot more than the 18 hour one. It came out of my Bannetton!
I 2nd that ;) !!! Please Reply me if you get one ;)
What is your fridge temperature?
@@ender4903 6°C
But I don't remember the outdoor temperature and the fridge I use was outside. It is possible that it was between 2 and 6°C , I am in winter here.
I am recording a retard experiment this week as I have vacation and I can spread the retard times out over a whole week :)
Wow you are a baking Galileo! This really was a mindchanger! Thank you master😁
Fascinating! I love experiment time. I have been using a process that calls for about 8-10 minutes of Rubaud kneading, as well as 6 S&Fs. Have you done an experiment comparing kneading and not kneading (beyond just stretch and folds or coil folds)? I looked, but didn't see one!
Great to see that glass bowl in stead of the cast iron oven - must try this!
I love experimentation! Rock on brother 🤘🏼
I really appreciate ur effort and hard work💕💕
Thanks for the tests! These have really helped me! I recently came to the realization that the times I ended up with a frisbee were when the fermentation required a long time (maybe 12 hours). I was fermenting over night at room temperature rather than at warmer temperatures and perhaps my starter was not as active as it should have been. Perhaps the bacteria that cause the sour taste are in a race with the yeast and if the bacteria win the race, you end up with blown-out dough? It would be interesting to see a test with fermentation taking place at different temperatures. Even under adverse test conditions, you always seem to pull off a result that is still edible. It would be great to see a video where you create the conditions for the frisbee result that so many of us have had ourselves. How many different ways can the bread making go wrong such that you end up with a frisbee?
This has been a problem for me l, my apartment gets too much sun and I never know how long to ferment the dough, I usually go for 'how it fells', the loafs come out tasty but never get consistent oven spring.
Need to get some glass containers and do it like the starter to measure growth.
Thanks for the video 👍
I have learned from you're vids and improved my bread. Nice guitars too.
love these experiments!
Hi Sune,
Thanks for another great video.
A suggestion for a future experiment is final shaping. Does stitching help, what does stretching the dough before final folding and rolling do?
I would have thought that long fermentation time in the fridge would make all doughs equal but this experiment really took me off guard :)
Good experiment!!
Could you tell us approximately how long it took to reach each level of fermentation, and at what temperature the bulk rise took place? I realize that there are many variables, but the variables are constant for your experiment, so it would helpful to know the rise times relative to the control 25% loaf.
Keith Epstein thanks for asking that, it’s what I was wondering too, plus, how do you know that it’s at each percentage..
Aldo wondering the same thing!
I'm also interested in the same - rise times relative to the control loaf.
Agree! Would be nice to get an answer on this one😄
Yes. I had a look at the video time stamps:
07:35 Put doughs in containers
08:54 25% done
09:13 50% done
09:44 75% done
10:01 100% done
This was at 25C/77F room temperature :)
Incredibly helpful!!!!
Thank you for the helpful video
Nice experiment !
I agree that recipes should *stop* using time for ferment! Much like they should stop using volume measurements for almost everything. My biggest hurdle at the beginning was over-fermenting, and ending up with a lifeless puddle of goo. I have independently determined that 50% volume increase after my last stretch-and-fold is the furthest I should go. What a revelation! Now I have questions on this "more precise" measurement of volume increase that isn't shown in the video:
1. When you say 25% increase, is the baseline volume considered to be after the last stretch-and-fold? Or is the baseline the volume before any proofing has happened? Mine already has more volume after the last stretch compared to before the first stretch.
2. Even in a perfect, straight-sided clear container, how can you really determine how much it grows when it starts as an un-even lump on the bottom of the container, not touching the sides evenly?
Like you, I had similar questions...but I saw another video and devised this system : once u have added starter + salt and mixed thoroughly you "saw-off" a small piece of dough (20 gm?) and place it into a small size clean GLASS jar - use a small and clean spatula and then pack it down to the bottom of the jar / smooth it evenly. Mark that level with a rubber band or pen and place it either INSIDE the dough ball mass or in the same environment as the main dough ball. Then u can monitor it for 25% or 50% growth - just be sure to keep the jar in the SAME areas as the main dough container (to avoid temp or humidity differences)
@@harleymbaldwin Thanks Harley. I've also heard this now and again. And I've never tried it. I try to avoid extra work and extra vessels. And I agree with M Ski below that a small amount of dough in a different container is sure to respond differently to the ferment. I can quite easily tell when my whole thing is adding volume. And I start with almost the same volume every time. My biggest question is: What is the volume increased based on? The volume before ANY bulk has been added (after initial combine of all ingredients)? I'm not sure I've seen anybody define that.
@@harleymbaldwin Great solution Harley. I will surely do that from now on. I had the most billowy bubbly mass a short time after the last fold. Flatish bake, but nice crumb and flavor!
I would like to see how you judged what a 25% rise looks like, etc. Obviously it comes with practice, but it would have been interesting to see in the containers.
Just estimate where 100% would be above the initial dough height in the clear container, mark that, and then estimate what 25% of this would be and make another mark above the original dough height (which would be below your initial 100% mark). I think this is how Sune does it and makes sense.
I don’t think it has to be exact, but I’ve found that it’s so easy to overproof if it’s above 25% at a warm temperature, such as 86 degrees F. Sune advises to change the bulk fermentation amount if you are proofing at cooler temps.
As always, thanks for sharing Sune
It’s very interesti g the fact that 75 and 100% show that big holes just below the crust. That big holes are usually due to over fermentation so... good experiment!
Charles Cornell fan! Love it!
Great information/video!!! I too am interested in the final proofing time. Frig vs room temp proofing. Also can the bulk fermentation be done before dividing into separate loaves?
You measure the rise from the end of the stretch and folds , which assumes very little rise to that point. From my limited experience, I agree it is better to rely on 25% to 50% rise rather than a time limit to determine end of bulk fermentation.
That’s a wonderful experience 👍🏻
Thank you for making sense out of bulk fermentation. So many recipes say to bulk ferment until it’s 100%. However, I always felt that was wrong-something used for commercial yeast. So, I use the Brod & Taylor proofing box, set it at 86 degrees, and mark it to indicate a rise of 25%. It works perfectly and prevents overproofing. Oven rise is good and bread tastes great.
You are welcome. I am happy it helped you :)
Thanks. This video is genius. I learned something. In order to get better oven spring, I need to ferment less than I so far assumed was right. The result is genius because it is counterintuitive. Ferment less and you get better oven spring. You need to experiment to figure that out. Intuition will lead you to bad results.
I think for me some of the confusion about this comes from having long been a baker of non-sourdough bread. When using commercial yeast, you are typically looking for dough to double in bulk in an hour or hour and a half - a 100% rise. It took some time for me to realize you won't get this kind of behaviour from sourdough, nor do you want it to rise that much.
I just saw it in the "show more" links. Look with your eyes & not your mouth as the saying goes. You have the best back round music for bread videos by the way.
I wish you showed what 25% is compared to the original dough, same for other percentages
Yes!
I have recorded this and will release a small video soon 😊
yup exactly what i was looking, having a hard time telling when is when :D
By the time I put my dough in fridge for retard, my dough is fluid fluffy. Maybe it’s over fermented.
How much time do you wait to final shape after pre shape?
_"I wish you showed what 25% is compared to the original dough, same for other percentages"_
I don't understand why you'd need to see. 25% more is 25% more. 50% is 50% more...
25% more volume just means your new dough takes up 1.25 times the original volume. If you have a straight-sided container, that's equivalent to its height being 1.25 times the original.
Thanks for this. Now I understand where I'm going wrong with my bread!
Thanks Sune for sharing such a great info. Always thot that ferment the bread to 75% or 100% will get gd crumb n oven spring.
I was hoping to see the time it takes for each percentage and also a picture of what the dough looked like in the container at the end of the bulk fermentation.
_"I was hoping to see the time it takes for each percentage"_
But that will depend a lot on your flour, and the temperature, so the timing is a bit pointless. Better to monitor the growth in practice and stop based on that.
_"and also a picture of what the dough looked like in the container at the end of the bulk fermentation."_
What, why?! 25% is 25% why would you need a picture to know what "25% extra" is? Do you need to see a picture of what 1litre of water looks like in a 1L jug?
@@jamma246 Yes. Because people are notoriusly bad at estimation volume.
@@kjeldschouten-lebbing6260 ...and that'll improve with them seeing an image of something 25% larger? What if their container is a different shape? It just boggles my mind that people can be so bad at maths that they don't understand basic geometry.
@@jamma246 It boggles my mind too, but lets say i've a small hope humanity would learn by giving them examples ;)
@@jamma246 It just boggled my mind annoying people like you exist but here we are.
Hi Sune, great vid as always. what banneton are you using in this vid? I much prefer these shapes than what my Batard shaped one is doing. The link in your notes points to round bannetons.
That was very interesting to see - looking so much forward to see the underfermented breads. How did the overfermented breads sniff and taste? Were they more sour?
Thanks, it would be good to have a comparison on flavour profile.
Thanks for the tip on the percentage of rise to gauge the fermentation. I am just starting and knowing when the bulk fermentation is at a good point is tricky. Where did you get that pirex cloche? That would help as i have a pizza stone, but no top. Thanks Food Geek!
This is why my spring isn’t good! Thank you!!
Amazing test. Thanks. How do you check the grow of the dough?
Thanks for the video. As always, very informative. Is that a Gibson acoustic behind you? What model?
Nice Charles Cornell t-shirt!
Thanks for showing this. I have been having some trouble getting a great oven spring, so my question is what is the temperature in your kitchen and the temperature in your fridge? I live in the Caribbean where it is hot and humid and yeasts work faster. I think I may have to adjust my fridge or do my stretch and folds at shorter intervals. My loaves look like your 75% fermentation.
Too funny. I changed playback speed to .75 (to watch the shaping slower) and now I know what it's like to hang out with a drunk Sune.
Another great video👍
Can you share sourdough pancakes recipe? Thanks
Mange tak. Very informative.
You're welcome :D
I always learn with you!
Great video, maybe I’ll try sourdough again.
Thank you for testing. Now I know
Thank you. always great information. Can you follow up this video with info post shaping your dough. How long do you leave your dough proofing at room temperature before you put it into the fridge eg when you bulk to 25% and 50% I would love to see how the dough looked when you pushed the bulk fermentation to say 75% I have to say all the dough looks similiar That is not the case for me if my dough goes too far I put my dough in tub and put a marker in it and a second marker to where I want to complete the bulk fermention. Thanks for your help Liz
I did push the bulk to 75% and 100%. The time is irrelevant 😊
Thanks for the video! I've been wondering how long to ferment since underproofing will get me more of an "ear" but the crumb is not airy enough for my taste and fermenting longer seem to improve the Crumb but the bread doesn't rise much in the oven
Hi Sune,thanks for the demonstration. I hope you don't mind me giving you a little suggestion here. It would be great to show the growth of the dough while they're still proofing in the containers because I believe there are tonnes of new sourdough bakers out there who doesn't know on how to judge the growth percentage of their dough. Thanks
Yes, I too would appreciate a visual of what the 25, 50, 75 and 100% doughs looked like in their containers.
Hi foodgeek! Thank you for tour vídeo! Which is the temperature of your fridge? How mane hours total you had there your bread? Thanks!
Repping Charles Cornell? Nice!
I like this, "BUT THERE MAY BE AN EVEN BETTER PERCENTAGE"...this is how GREATNESS IS ACHEIVED!!
Appreciate the experiments! May I know how to measure the percentage?
Your videos are so informative, really learning a lot. I almost wish they were longer or slower so I could absorb more! Even on the 75 & 100% loaves, your scoring was so effortless. What is your secret?! Searching your channel for a scoring video now…
Thank you :) Unfortunately you gotta keep them short on RUclips :)
My scoring video: ruclips.net/video/wfoC-daJq8E/видео.html :)
Oh yeah, the secret is dough right of an extremely cold fridge :)
This was really helpful to me -- tusind tak! The only question I have that you didn't answer is how you measured the amount of rise during bulk fermentation. I've seen you mark the side of your fermentation container in other videos, but I don't find that works very well for me. I'm relatively new to sourdough bread making, still perfecting my 70% hydration sourdough, and I find the dough doesn't want to flatten into the corners of the bulk fermentation container very well, so I have a hard time estimating how much it has risen. Do you have any tricks to help us with this?
How do the doughs look different BEFORE baking? I don't see anything.
Hi, Sune! I can totally attest to the fact that bread that has bulk fermented at 100% will give a decent crumb, but won’t have a decent rise. I did it yesterday. I had to go out and didn’t think to put it in the refrigerator. Actually, I thought I’d be home sooner. It was probably 125%! Not much I thought I could do but shape it, put it in the fridge and hope for the best. It tastes great but there was minimal rise. 🤣🤣 I’ll be careful next time but is there anything I could have done to correct it?
Usually the 'wait till doubled' at that stage is for kneaded dough, where you knead 5-10 minutes and leave it be. So in my mind, and how I visualise it is: since the bulk ferment starts when you add the ferment to the dough and given with these you instead of kneading (10 mins) you stretch and folds over 1h30m, which knock dough back, waiting till the dough has doubled would always result in over fermentation. Meaning, the extra time to reach double would deplete gluten ahead of time. Is that about right?
Hi, someone else asked where was the autolyse. I've got the same question, and a few more. Did you skip the autolyse? Did you use your proofer box (and if so what temp) for the fermentations that were not in the fridge? And do you ever use the "poke" test to test whether proofing is done?
You could do also the pinch test after they grown-up ,in that way we might have felt the dough what it should like to be.
How did you measure percent increase? Also, can you test lower? No bulk ferment. 10 percent? Set an upper and lower limit? As always, fantastic video. Just sharing ideas.
good to know thank you
I think the more you ferment, the finer the bubbles you get. Also, I think that not baking them immediately, and putting them in the fridge instead, significantly changed the results, making them all more similar than baking immediately after their shaping would have (made them).
This may be why my 17 loaves of sourdough so far (Covid time) have tasted good, but disappointed me in their rise. Thanks for this.
I was wondering, why do you do stretch and fold when in one of your previous experiments you found coil fold to be better? Also, does it not help to de some Ribaud kneading?
Very informative video! One question: what is time interval between each stretch and fold?
30 minutes :)
Hi! Great experiment! What temperature is your fridge?
Sort of looks like the Punisher tee shirt. I find that I get the best result with a 100% bulk as I put the dough in a fridge at about 1 to 2 C temp. So everything really slows down to atop over night.