Not sure which one will have the best results, but I have been coming to the realization that he can do whatever and his loaves will come out beautiful
Thank you so much for doing this! I'm a professional baker, now running my own premises, and you've essentially condensed years of my life arguing with amateurs about total nonsense down into 15 minutes 😂 Autolyse is for yeasted bread. Or more specifically, autolysing yeasted bread can produce some of the effects of sourdough. Autolysing sourdough is largely pointless. It doesn't do any harm, and there certainly can be some benefits, depending on what kind of bread you're making. But for a good basic loaf, as I say to all my new employees, time and temperature are the most important factors. Not some silly magic trick about when you add the salt and/or starter.
@Foodgeek Absolutely! And it's really sad to see people who are trying to get started on making their own bread getting demoralised by this stuff. It's really just a question of sticking to the basics and keeping at it, and that's such a fun process. So annoying when people come in and try to overcomplicate it 😤
This should have been called "How to make a loaf of bread." It might have been in summary form but I learned a LOT. Mix, stretch and fold "until the window pane test if passed", ferment, pre-shape, shape, refrigerate, dust and score, bake. I'm going to make a chart of this. Thanks.
I use Trevor Wilson’s method for a stiff dough (65% hydration). It is a long salted autolyse. Mix flour water salt in the evening leave in fridge for a few hours take out and leave at room temperature overnight. Mix in starter then do three stretch and folds every 2 hours, pre-shape, bench rest, shape into baneton then put into fridge overnight. I like it as it’s an easy dough to handle and the crumb is nice even though it I’d low hydration for sourdough.
Experiment suggestion: Can you freeze a loaf after shaping and bake it a week later? Maybe do an overnight unfreeze on the counter or a 24 hour unfreeze in the fridge. What do you think?
I usually just keep mine in the fridge for a few days. like im baking two loafs, after putting them both in the fridge to cold over night, I just bake the one, and leave the other for when I ate all the bread in the first loaf.
Jeepers! I started doing the mix all method at the beginning and "corrected" to these more complicated ways. The nicest thing about the mix all is you can mix all the dry things and the wet things in separate bowls. With the water/starter in a bowl you can easily get it into a thin cloudy homogeneous suspension that ensures the starter easily reaches all of the flour evenly. Thanks Sune for doing these experiments so that we don't have to!
Exactly. And you might as well dissolve the salt in the wet ingredients while you're at it for guaranteed even distribution, and no need for a second mixing bowl.
@@EnzoJunkie From what I've seen, that's mostly a myth. I think you'd need a lot more salt for much longer time to make any noticeable difference to the health of the starter. These yeasts and bacteria are pretty tough. It takes maybe 30 seconds to dissolve the salt and starter in the water, then add the flour. But don't take my word for it, try it yourself!. I haven't had any problems with this method. You might want to check out a few of Sune's earlier vids on the subject. ruclips.net/video/Z0o-tkaDqps/видео.html ruclips.net/video/As1Vw5zjVp4/видео.html
Same here. Quickest method I've found. Don't have as much flexibility ..1 hour max for autolyse or I've found or it gets over prooved. Autolyse or salted autolyse works for me with up to 3 hour autolyse.
I’ve tried autolyze method, and no one else mentions this, but every time I find it so hard to evenly add in salt &starter! It requires tricky mixing work, as dough is already sort of formed. After this video, I’m happily going back to mix all!! Thank you 😊!
I've been doing that for quite awhile because adding the salt and starter once the bread and water are together was a pain and I never felt like it was mixed enough. I saw on another channel someone bake without autolyse and it seemed to work fine! I'm glad to have it confirmed here though. :)
hi , I cannot thank you enough for all the things I have learnt from your channel. The quality of my bread has improved immensely. I have a request for you. After all these experiments, its time to do a start to finish, step by step video of your new master recipe tweaked to simple off the shelf supermarket ingredients. Thank you. Roger
I hope you add dough temperature measurements too! People keep forgetting temperature is an important ingredient, very crucial for us living in the tropics. I tend to do a true autolyse for high protein flours since I want to develop gluten as much as I can before adding the starter in. In our temps (30C), my starter rises in just merely an hour, so I want to get a good windowpane within an hour of mixing in the starter. I find adding salt last “repairs” some gluten tearing I’ve done while mixing. I get a smooth shiny dough ball best this way.
i've been doing mix-all since starting to bake this year, i have severe chronic fatigue and need to keep things as simple as possible whilst finding so much joy in kitchen chemistry! i've been wanting to 'do it right' with a full autolyse to at least see how much more amazing my bread could be... thank you for doing this experiment for all of us! i've been really happy with my bread and will rest easy knowing i don't need to make more work for myself. woohoo! your channel and website, recipe converter widget, have been the best tools. big mahalo, thank you, from a newbie baker in hawaii.
I watched the whole video before commenting. I feed my starter around 7PM the night before working the dough. Then anywhere between 12AM and 3AM, depending on the heat in the house, I'll mix up the starter for the bread and let it sit. For the Autolyse, I mix up my flour, water and salt around 9PM and that sits covered in a bowl until around 5/6AM, when I mix in the Starter and start the process going. Because I leave my Autolyse for so long, I'll continue to add in the Starter in the AM. It's a small step and once mixed in I leave the dough for an hour before I start my stretch and folds. I also started taking a hands off approach to my dough, meaning I do about 90 mins of stretch and folds depending on window pane, then let the dough ferment for a few hours before shaping and fridge. This nets me a much nicer open crumb. Keeping in mind I'm not shooting for a bread that has huge holes, I don't like that. I like a semi tighter crumb with a few holes so that butter and jam stay on the bread slice rather then fall through! I really like your video's thanks so much for making them Sune.
It seems like there is negligible difference between any of them, same as with most of your experiments. I always get excited for these experiments, and then find less than 5% difference in all of the loaves. My best guess is it all comes down to bulk fermentation, how it’s done and the length of the bulk. Everything else is small gains or losses. Anyone else agree?
Aaron Roffe I feed the starter 1-3-3 before going to bed and start the salty autolyse. In the morning (7-8am) I mix. After 30 min 3-4 stretch and fold. I’m usually around 75% growth before preshape- need to try 25-50 as never done. Will keep loafes overnight in fridge before baking.
I think it does make a difference to the handling and gluten development, but it’s not something you can’t compensate for in the folding stage. So I think it makes sense if it works with your schedule. I do the autolyse if have time while waiting for my starter to mature.
I truly love your videos and after watching so many bakers make sourdough bread, I can truly say you are my go to guy! when it comes to method and the way you explain how to make make it!
I’m fairly new to sourdough bread baking. But I’ve been using the mix all method for last 2 bakes and had the best results with that method so far. I don’t know if it’s because I’ve finally figured out my best methods, improved with my shaping and dough handling? But it worked best for me. I used a white all purpose flour with a 30% dark rye, with 80% hydration, and my starter is 100%. Thank you for doing this experiment. Love your videos I’ve learned a lot from them.
To see what would happen, I did a 9 hour autolyse. I mixed everything together except the starter and let sit overnight on the counter. I then mixed in the starter and proceeded as outlined in this video with 3 stretch and folds, time in the refrigerator, etc. 1. The dough passed the window pane test after the first stretch and fold, so the other two were maybe not needed. 2. The oven spring was better than usual. 3. The crumb was a bit rubbery, perhaps even a bit gummy. Maybe the enzymes had started to break down the gluten?
Seems that all your experiments involve a sample size of one. It might be interesting to do 4 (or more) loaves with everything the same to see the sample-to-sample variability. Maybe it is as big as some of the differences you are trying to assess. Love your channel!
I like mixing flour and water together and letting it rest for a couple hours while I wait for my starter to get ready. I find the dough easier to work with that way but I think going forward I'll mix in the starter and salt at the same time.
Pretty sure without seeing the video in its entirety that the results will be fairly similar with all four methods. I live in a high altitude and learned the fermentalyse method and have pretty much stuck to it but I’m in favor of mixing everything together as the process of adding the salt after the fermentalyse can be a pain depending on your hydration level.
Just wanted to say a big thank you 🙏 for your bread calculator. Amazing of you to create that and put it out there for all to use. It has really helped me a lot! Thank you Sune, very much. 😊💐🙏
My prediction was that it wouldn't make much difference, and that the mix all method would be the best because of less fussiness. But, even though Sune did say that the mix all was the least fussy, it looks to me that the salted autolyse makes the most open crumb. I would have liked to see the sniff and taste test here to find out if the different autolyse methods made a difference in the final flavor.
I enjoy your scientific approach to sourdough and started using the salted autolyse method based on your previous videos. Next time, I'm trying the all at once method. One thing I do is dissolve the salt in the water before adding the flour. I don't know if this is any better than adding the salt to the water and flour, but I feel the salt is more evenly distributed if it is dissolved in the water before adding the flour.
I have done the salted autolyse and got the best oven spring I have had in a long time. I baked it on my preheated stone and used a Pyrex bowl as a cover. It filled my bowl. So now I went and bought a bigger bowl!! Unfortunately the Brovn baker is not available to shop to the U noted States or I would have ordered one already! Thanks for the great tips!!
Thank you Sune for sharing all these experiments. I started baking since watching you. Yes I just mix all and let the starter does it’s crazy thing. They all came out surprisingly good. I don’t even have a Dutch oven. I just use two 13 x 9 aluminum pans held together with 2 metal clips placed on a heavy cookie sheet. I must admit that I have been feeding my starter with all kinds of organic stuff and watch it gone bubbly crazy while I’m singing lullaby. 😂 . “Keep doing what your doing good”
Hello, nice video ! I could point out something about autolyse from my little experience. The major difference it make to me is only practical as you need less kneading with the autolyse method and it show ifself even more if the hydratation is higher. But i think you can't really try out autolyse using this fermentation delay. In the end, you have all the time in the world (16H) to develop flavor and fermentation. Maybe if you have to produce your bread in like 6H, it would make a difference. Or if you're a baker, you can start an autolyse and do something else during this time. When making dought, what is important is time.
I'm more on the lazy side of things so I like the salted autolyse, just gives me some buffer when I forget a agitation-cycle while watching TV or strolling youtube. But I start it earlier, I just mix my starter together and sice I have the scales out anyway start the salted autolyse at the same time. Just with the recent heatwave I autolyse in the fridge so that nothing touches my dough in a non-decent way! 5-8 hours od autolyse give me a really nice glutten-buffer against any kind of mistakes. Tested it when I smashed the bowl with the ready starter after mixing the rest and so I put the rest in the fridge and got a new starter on it's way, bread way great so I keept things that way.
I always autolyse with everything exept the salt because salt draws the moisture out of things and i have heard that its best to wait with the salt, so thanx for this video. If mixing everything is just as goid i will do this
Thank you very much for your experiments, that's exactly how things should be taught so we know the reason behind all the steps we do, thanks to your videos I've been getting consistent good results with my SD breads, me and my relatives love them, thanks once again!
Maybe the flour that Sune uses is too good :) I guess autolyse comes in handy if you have lower quality flour and you need some extra time for gluten developement without the dough becoming overfermented.
I've tried it due to the unavailability of bread flour in the early weeks of lockdown, with a 9.4% flour @80% a 2 hour autolyse before adding starter and salt gave a better result than my usual fermento-lyse. I was pleasantly surprised that both methods produced quite decent loaves with such a low protein flour. The main difference was that the long autolyse gave me a stronger dough that made shaping easier.
I've been using mix-all method for a long time with the flour (type 55) I buy in nearby supermarket that costs 0.45-0.6 euro per kilo, the bread comes out excellent. I live in France, I don't know about other countries though.
@@annabellelee8167 I use T65 flour, but I add a little bit of vital wheat gluten (Portuguese supermarket flours are low in protein)... It made a difference in shaping and handling the dough. But it's also cheap flour and it has turned out ok... But better flours taste nicer i think (my friend has artisan flour and the taste is better)
Thank you Sensei. This experiment was most valuable. You are 100% right about ease of making the loaf is so very important. If all ingredients can be mixed at the outset, it eliminates extra steps that are spaced out at 30 minutes apart. It allows us to fit bread making into more days. Thank you for all that you do and share with us.
Four very nice loaves that anyone would be proud of. I have been using mix all for years out of speed, lack of fussiness and less risk of doing it wrong when busy and distracted. Unless I'm the only one that has done that. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks so much for this! I keep going back and forth-so far I think I like my own results using regular autolyse just a bit more. The dough sticks less and the rise (at least in my experiment time(!) seems somewhat better. Many thanks, however, for clearing up the fact that you can combine everything with a similar result! I’ve wondered about you changing your methods and so far, all of your recommendations have been good ones!
I love how you conduct your experiments. Your methodology is always impeccable and here, proves beyond reasonable doubt that different methods aren't that significant in the final outcome, and this extremely useful information. It tip my hat to you! My go-to bread recipe is 50% home milled flour, which I mill using a modified commercial coffee grinder. This results in a fairly coarse flour with bran shaped like flakes, which has been a challenge for gluten development. For this recipe, I have found, after much experimenting, that the best results in terms of dough behaviour and rise, was to let the whole wheat portion of the flour autolyse overnight with all the water, adding the rest of the ingredients the next day. My interpretation is that the whole wheat soup turns the sharp bran flakes and coarse flour grains into a much softer material that doesn't interfere too much with gluten development, so that when I add the other ingredients, dough develops and rises almost as nicely as if it were all white flour. Of course, I would prefer a mill producing much finer flour, a constant temperature proofer and a climate controlled kitchen, but I can live with the variations in texture, crumb shape and density it produces because the great taste I get from freshly milled wheat makes these imperfections seem insignificant :-)
From what I understand, if you mix everything together and you leave it in the fridge overnight, this creates an auto lyse. Therefore, your 16 hour final proof in the fridge should create an auto lease by design. If the dough you're making does not require overnight rise in the fridge, then you need to just mix the dough water and flour 1st and let that sit for at least an hour, such as with sandwich bread.
I don't know yet what your results are (I paused like you suggested), but for me the mix all method has given reliable results every time. With both starter and dry yeast, I've made breads with salt included for the fermentation/leavening, and without, adding at the end. The breads taste the same regardless of when the salt goes in, and they all have a similar structure, but one method is more of a pain in the butt than the other. So now all my breads are simpler to make.
My favorite method is fermentolyse, then add the salt about 20 minutes later, wait 20 minutes then do a lamination fold. You need only about 2 stretch and folds after that. Mixing everything in the beginning has not yielded as good of results for gluten strength unless I'm using a mixer.
Love your sourdough video's Sune! Your style of explanation is brilliant. Low key but very informative and helpful. Your enthusiasm is infectious. Your tests help teach the underlying fundamentals that if understood, allow one to make their own adjustments. Rather than simply following a recipe, you help us understand what is happening in the dough. Thus we can learn better technique and ultimately become better at the ART of sourdough. Thank you.
Thanks :D That's exactly what I am trying to do. Make people their own recipe developers, or at least know when something in a recipe they use may be off, due to their environment, flour, starter or whatever else can be different :)
I find a long autolyse (like overnight) gives me the best results. Salt does have some effect on the dough texture in the morning when I add starter but the end result either way is good.
I think this was nice official confirmation, but I would say throughout your videos thus far, you have proved that a true autolyse isn't really needed; your mix-all breads have been looking fabulous for weeks now! As always, Sune brings the science into our kitchens, and it's a treat.
Glad to see you're rocking all that youtuber-merch. So far I've seen RoomieOfficial, Davie504, RyanGeorge and I think even more. Great work as always, I feel like I learn so much watching your channel. Keep it up!
I am a big fan of the scientific method and this is as close as we get. What we are told to do may be far from practical or truth and this is a great example. Thanks sune for proving it. Making sourdough is a process. Why not make that process easier to incorporate into your day?
Hi Sune can you do an experiment on when is best to add extra ingredients like cheese or walnuts? there are a few options on the internet, curious to see your take on it :) BTW love your content!
I've been using the 'all in' method successfully after noticing that's what you've been doing lately. However, I'm going to try mixing a salted autolyse at bedtime and feeding the starter at the same time. Then put the autolyse in the fridge overnight while the starter develops as well and both can be mixed in the morning so the bake happens earlier in the day.
I make whole grain loaves, they vary from 70% to 100% whole grain. I believe the overnight autolyse helps flavour development, taking away some of the bitterness of the whole wheat. I find find it to be an easy step, so for now, I will stick with it. But thanks for the video though.
Well, Sune, I think you’ve just demonstrated what we all suspected all along. I have eschewed all of my arcane sourdough rituals. You have separated the bakers from the ballet dancers. I’m going to take off my tutu and go knock out a loaf. Thank you! And, yes, I have been hypnotized.
This may be the most important video you have made about sourdough bread. I've been puzzled by the many, and sometimes contradictory, methods that bakers present as gospel-truth. Your video gives weight to the idea that there is no single correct way. Instead, many methods give good results. I've long suspected that there is a multitude of acceptable methods. Some of your tried-and-true techniques don't work for me. For example, my starter collapses long before it triples in volume. As a result, I wait until my starter has doubled, or almost doubled, before I use it. Also, I skip at least one step from your method. I have never pre-shaped my loaves. Instead, I go directly from bulk fermentation to shaping. So I question whether pre-shaping is necessary... but maybe you can test that in a future video!
I'm new having done six batches. I haven't yet done the pre-shape, but I've ordered a metal bench scraper and plan to try doing this, as Sune's test showed that it does make a difference. But he's saying that autolysing doesn't matter, so I might try to skip that step since it adds a lot of time to the process.
That's the first time I've seen your window pane fail after three stretch and folds. I have yet to EVER pass a window pane even after upwards of six stretch and folds, for some reason (half-hour between each). I need to find one of your videos for shaping for a bowl. IMHO, the salted version looked like it had better rise and crumb. Your neighbors must love you as I'm guessing you keep them in a steady supply of bread. :)
Sune! What can you say about the salted autolyse? Other commenters here and I agree that salted Autolyse looks more open. Look at the comparison shot! Do you think it was just random/handling or an actual difference from the changed variables?
The flour and water were mixed for longer, because bulk starts later when you add the starter later. Maybe that lets the gluten develop longer, allowing a slightly more open crumb? Maybe you can account for that by just reducing the inoculation in the 'mix all' approach, or maybe by doing a bit more stretch and fold. Also, it's really hard to control only one variable at a time: I think the changes were small enough to maybe just be a bit expected deviations rather than one method being fundamentally better.
thank you so much for making this video. I am so happy that I found it. at least I don't need to bother to do autolyse in my sourdough bread. just cut my time. thanks again
An interesting video - thanks! It raised some questions. Would the results have been different with an all whole grain bread? I suspect that autolyse wouldn't do much for rye, but how about whole wheat? Also, could you add affiliate links for the dark covered mixing bowls you are using, as well as the oval bannetons? The banneton link you provide only shows round bannetons and the oval ones you are using are very attractive.
I've tried with and without, but I use a stand mixer to get to window pane test and I don't think there's much advantage to autolysing. But if I was going to bench-knead I would definitely autolyse to make the dough easier to work with
I have almost always used the "fermentolyse" method (though I don't let the salt lie on top but mix it in later) except for a couple of times more recently when I mixed everything at the start. My experience was that there was no difference in the result. Mix All is for me from now on.
As always, Sune, thanks for running this experiment for us. You doing this probably saved me about a year of baking tries and errors. (I have that last part down to a science.) On your final, side-by-side comparison, it appeared that the fermentalyse didn't seem to have quite the "ear" of the others. Can I deduce from that there was less oven spring than the others had? Keep on showing us ways to simplify this detail-dependent process!
Have you tried mixing the starter with the water first? It makes a sort of starter ‘milk’ then add the flour and salt. I find that it mixes together easier. Doesn’t seem to make a difference in the bread, but anything easier I’ll take.
I'm glad you did this experiment, I had been using a mix all method but after watching a few of your videos decided I needed to up my bread game with autolysing. I found I often missed the timing of the 80% risen leaven to start it off, and 3 times the gluten in the autolyse was so stringy it made it super hard to mix. Can I ask now that, based on the results of this experiment, you will update your sourdough for beginners recipe?
Depending on my daily schedule I have used two different mixing methods. If it is a weekend day or I am off from work then I like to autolyse at least 90 minutes before I add the levain. However, if I have a full day of work ahead of me, I like to mix everything at once - the way Sune does it in his “The world’s easiest sourdough recipe” but I don’t just leave it to rest, I do some rubaud method for about 5 - 8 minutes and I do about 6 sets of folds during the course of 8 - 10 hours. I normally get great bread with both methods of mixing
all-the-lyse works best for my sourdough, the only time autolyse offers better gluten development is when using additives like ascorbic or citric acid, milk powder, or buttermilk powder
Yes...I am practicing eating less of this delicious bread...once slice a day...🥺. You make baking sour dough bread fun and much more of an art project...being an artist, It is right up my ally.
I do a fermentolyse 2 -- Mix starter in water then add in flour. 1 to 1.5 hrs add salt. Do first fold maybe 30-45 minutes. I don't find my first fold looks so ragged. I bulk more than 20% though.
Glad the mix it all together turned out nice. It is easier. I would like to see a mix all together test of Dissolve the starter in water then add flour/salt compared to add flour then starter water then mix (as you did in this video). I think the dissolve starter in water first makes it easy to mix and spread the starter around but would like to see if there's a difference.
Thank you so much for your delightfully informative videos! I have been mixing everything together based on the first easy recipe I tried (ATK "almost no knead") but have been incorporating more that I've learned from your videos with time (and increased experience for this beginning baker). The true autolyse adds time but I thought it would be better in terms of outcome. You have proven otherwise in your expert hands! Thank you!
Enjoying your videos. I have two questions. 1. Which is you favorite recipe for sourdough that includes a bit of olive oil, and some of the added diostatic malt flour? Do you have a video on how best to incorporate other items into the dough, like sun-dried tomatoes and olives, or raisins and nuts? I have currently have 8 pizzas dough balls (300 grams each) resting in the fridge, made yesterday following your recipe. It was fantastic using the malt flour and olive oil, so smooth and easy to work the dough! Thanks, David
I assume you're using fully active starter in all of these. I would love to see an experiment where you use unfed starter that isn't at peak activity with a longer bulk ferment compared to your normal method. Thank you for this great Video. I am unlearning everything I thought I knew about sourdough bread baking thanks to you. I really do appreciate you cutting through the myths and superstitions and making sourdough baking more simple and enjoyable for everybody.
I have been doing a version of the fermentolyse method recently. However it does not require me to let the salt rest on top as shown in the video. I fermentolyse for 3 hours first, then add the salt (not sure if that's really any different) and processed to do 3 sets of stretch and folds over the next 3 hours. So far in my young sourdough baking journey, this method has worked the best for me.
@@Foodgeek I was doing the mix all method at the very beginning when I started out. My early bakes just weren't very impressive. But perhaps it's just because I was too new to it at the time. Maybe if I try the mix all method again my bakes will turn out better than before since I've gained more experience. I also wonder if it has anything to do with my starter being older. I read that your starter becomes stronger and more lively over time.
@@paulwarren6062 I think you are right about the experience playing a part in it :) A starter is new each time to free it. If you have lots of yeast in a new starter, it won't be more potent than one that was started years ago. I find that starters' powers go down when seasons change, and they need to be "turbo-charged." I usually do that by a series of 1:100:100 feedings, and it's back in shape :)
I just discovered your channel and I love it! It’s exactly like how mei leaf finds the best of each variable in tea to make the best tea ever. I adjusted my sourdough recipe so much based on all the info from your videos!
This was helpful. I have been using the Mix All method for about a year now. I had been in a hurry and needed to skip the autolyse step. When I saw, and tasted, no difference, I thought "why bother?"
I think you find that there is no difference because all the stretch and fold build a nice gluten structure in all cases. What would be interesting to test is autolyse with no stretch and fold vs mixing everything together with stretch and fold. Thanks for all your great videos
Well, a long fermentation that essentially works as an autolyse. Autolyse is a method that was meant to help yeasted breads develop gluten before yeast is added, because this rise is so short.
Sune, I love your videos, however I wish you would add information about what temperature you used to ferment the bread and how long it took to reach 25% increase in size. Thanks Taryn
a-HA! 😅 I started mixing it all together a while back, after watching different videos where they did this and other orders of procedures, but always wondered if I was missing something. “Why make things more complicated when you don’t have to” is there best question. Unfortunately I think there’s a tendency of people to adopt unnecessarily complex procedures because they saw someone else do it and didn’t question it, and sometimes out of a sense of it being “more professional.” I see the same thing in gardening and horticulture. (Do you *really* have to have those exact percentages of soil components, and layered in the exact same way as that famous German horticulturist, to get a Stapelia to grow? Probably not. Will it make any difference? Maybe.) Thanks as always for actually doing the experiment!
Awesome experiment Sune, thank you! I always mix everything all at once, make 4 breads at the same time, and they come out perfect. I bake them in the oven per 2 with some steam.
Happy to see the results. I prefer to mix the salt at time of autolyse, as that way I will not forget to add it. Also I think it gets a better mix into the dough.
Thank you very much Sune for this experiment! I also found no significant benefits from doing true autolyse. Thank you for dispelling the true analyse myth! I love your scientific approach to sourdough bread making - always having an open mind to experimenting and changing approach where necessary. Cheers!
I agree that judging from the crumb alone, there seems to be little difference in those four bakes, but I'm disappointed that Sune didn't go further to judge on taste as well. That's at least as important as crumb.
I enjoy your videos, have learned lots of technique. You’re a great teacher. Perhaps I missed it but you usually compare taste and texture in your experiments. I suspect the mix all and fermentalyse were more flavorful. I’ve always preferred longer fermentation for more flavor and chewy texture.
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Not sure which one will have the best results, but I have been coming to the realization that he can do whatever and his loaves will come out beautiful
Agree
The main thing I've learned from Sune: It doesn't matter what you do to your dough...as long as you know how to "read" it and adjust your process.
I think it's more like, it doesn't matter what Sune does to the dough, it will come out perfect anyway :D
It is true. Observation observation observation
Thank you so much for doing this! I'm a professional baker, now running my own premises, and you've essentially condensed years of my life arguing with amateurs about total nonsense down into 15 minutes 😂
Autolyse is for yeasted bread. Or more specifically, autolysing yeasted bread can produce some of the effects of sourdough. Autolysing sourdough is largely pointless. It doesn't do any harm, and there certainly can be some benefits, depending on what kind of bread you're making. But for a good basic loaf, as I say to all my new employees, time and temperature are the most important factors. Not some silly magic trick about when you add the salt and/or starter.
Thanks. There's just so much 'sourdough religion' out there. It's really not fussy when you know what to focus on 😁
@Foodgeek Absolutely! And it's really sad to see people who are trying to get started on making their own bread getting demoralised by this stuff. It's really just a question of sticking to the basics and keeping at it, and that's such a fun process. So annoying when people come in and try to overcomplicate it 😤
This should have been called "How to make a loaf of bread." It might have been in summary form but I learned a LOT. Mix, stretch and fold "until the window pane test if passed", ferment, pre-shape, shape, refrigerate, dust and score, bake. I'm going to make a chart of this. Thanks.
I use Trevor Wilson’s method for a stiff dough (65% hydration). It is a long salted autolyse. Mix flour water salt in the evening leave in fridge for a few hours take out and leave at room temperature overnight. Mix in starter then do three stretch and folds every 2 hours, pre-shape, bench rest, shape into baneton then put into fridge overnight. I like it as it’s an easy dough to handle and the crumb is nice even though it I’d low hydration for sourdough.
Experiment suggestion:
Can you freeze a loaf after shaping and bake it a week later? Maybe do an overnight unfreeze on the counter or a 24 hour unfreeze in the fridge. What do you think?
Sune, I'd love to see this one!
Why don’t you try it yourself. 👌🏻
@@marjankrebelj4007 Sune is alot more entertaining than me ;)
ive tried once with dough i froze for pizza, the loaf was 25% flatter, but all otherwise looked and tasted great
I usually just keep mine in the fridge for a few days. like im baking two loafs, after putting them both in the fridge to cold over night, I just bake the one, and leave the other for when I ate all the bread in the first loaf.
Jeepers! I started doing the mix all method at the beginning and "corrected" to these more complicated ways. The nicest thing about the mix all is you can mix all the dry things and the wet things in separate bowls. With the water/starter in a bowl you can easily get it into a thin cloudy homogeneous suspension that ensures the starter easily reaches all of the flour evenly. Thanks Sune for doing these experiments so that we don't have to!
Exactly. And you might as well dissolve the salt in the wet ingredients while you're at it for guaranteed even distribution, and no need for a second mixing bowl.
@@fxm5715 What about the whole "salt kills the starter" thing?
@@EnzoJunkie watch the earlier video, that experiment is already done.
I have great success with mixing all together at the same time. I've used more complicated methods but can see no discernable difference myself 🤷🏼♀️
@@EnzoJunkie From what I've seen, that's mostly a myth. I think you'd need a lot more salt for much longer time to make any noticeable difference to the health of the starter. These yeasts and bacteria are pretty tough. It takes maybe 30 seconds to dissolve the salt and starter in the water, then add the flour. But don't take my word for it, try it yourself!. I haven't had any problems with this method. You might want to check out a few of Sune's earlier vids on the subject.
ruclips.net/video/Z0o-tkaDqps/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/As1Vw5zjVp4/видео.html
I just mix everything at once and wait an hour before doing my first strech-and-fold.
Same here. Quickest method I've found. Don't have as much flexibility ..1 hour max for autolyse or I've found or it gets over prooved. Autolyse or salted autolyse works for me with up to 3 hour autolyse.
I’ve tried autolyze method, and no one else mentions this, but every time I find it so hard to evenly add in salt &starter! It requires tricky mixing work, as dough is already sort of formed. After this video, I’m happily going back to mix all!! Thank you 😊!
Im mixing everything together right away 💖
Me too
Seriously. 🍻
I've been doing that for quite awhile because adding the salt and starter once the bread and water are together was a pain and I never felt like it was mixed enough. I saw on another channel someone bake without autolyse and it seemed to work fine! I'm glad to have it confirmed here though. :)
hi , I cannot thank you enough for all the things I have learnt from your channel.
The quality of my bread has improved immensely.
I have a request for you.
After all these experiments, its time to do a start to finish, step by step video of your new master recipe tweaked to simple off the shelf supermarket ingredients.
Thank you.
Roger
yes!
I agree, except for the need for off-the-shelf ingredients. Maybe your favorite ingredients vs off-the-shelf?
I hope you add dough temperature measurements too! People keep forgetting temperature is an important ingredient, very crucial for us living in the tropics. I tend to do a true autolyse for high protein flours since I want to develop gluten as much as I can before adding the starter in. In our temps (30C), my starter rises in just merely an hour, so I want to get a good windowpane within an hour of mixing in the starter. I find adding salt last “repairs” some gluten tearing I’ve done while mixing. I get a smooth shiny dough ball best this way.
Yeah, I've been mixing everything together right away. It saves so much time 👍☺ thanks for all of your hard work Sune. You're a deadset legend 😁
After years of baking I agree with geek, why making things complicated if in reality there is no need to fuss around.
Great video
Yep, I knew it. The "mix all" is the best choice. Best wishes from California.
i've been doing mix-all since starting to bake this year, i have severe chronic fatigue and need to keep things as simple as possible whilst finding so much joy in kitchen chemistry! i've been wanting to 'do it right' with a full autolyse to at least see how much more amazing my bread could be... thank you for doing this experiment for all of us! i've been really happy with my bread and will rest easy knowing i don't need to make more work for myself. woohoo! your channel and website, recipe converter widget, have been the best tools. big mahalo, thank you, from a newbie baker in hawaii.
I watched the whole video before commenting. I feed my starter around 7PM the night before working the dough. Then anywhere between 12AM and 3AM, depending on the heat in the house, I'll mix up the starter for the bread and let it sit. For the Autolyse, I mix up my flour, water and salt around 9PM and that sits covered in a bowl until around 5/6AM, when I mix in the Starter and start the process going. Because I leave my Autolyse for so long, I'll continue to add in the Starter in the AM. It's a small step and once mixed in I leave the dough for an hour before I start my stretch and folds. I also started taking a hands off approach to my dough, meaning I do about 90 mins of stretch and folds depending on window pane, then let the dough ferment for a few hours before shaping and fridge. This nets me a much nicer open crumb. Keeping in mind I'm not shooting for a bread that has huge holes, I don't like that. I like a semi tighter crumb with a few holes so that butter and jam stay on the bread slice rather then fall through! I really like your video's thanks so much for making them Sune.
It seems like there is negligible difference between any of them, same as with most of your experiments. I always get excited for these experiments, and then find less than 5% difference in all of the loaves.
My best guess is it all comes down to bulk fermentation, how it’s done and the length of the bulk. Everything else is small gains or losses.
Anyone else agree?
And judging fermentation is the hardest part of it all, isn’t it?
I’m a salty overnight autolyse guy. Fits my home office schedule best and gives me temperature control of when the sourdough is added.
What’s your process then?
Aaron Roffe I feed the starter 1-3-3 before going to bed and start the salty autolyse. In the morning (7-8am) I mix. After 30 min 3-4 stretch and fold. I’m usually around 75% growth before preshape- need to try 25-50 as never done. Will keep loafes overnight in fridge before baking.
Pasquale Calvi Thanks. Very similar to mine then. I have been doing traditional autolyse but prefer mix all and will be going back to it now.
I think it does make a difference to the handling and gluten development, but it’s not something you can’t compensate for in the folding stage. So I think it makes sense if it works with your schedule. I do the autolyse if have time while waiting for my starter to mature.
I truly love your videos and after watching so many bakers make sourdough bread, I can truly say you are my go to guy! when it comes to method and the way you explain how to make make it!
Thank you :)
I’m fairly new to sourdough bread baking. But I’ve been using the mix all method for last 2 bakes and had the best results with that method so far. I don’t know if it’s because I’ve finally figured out my best methods, improved with my shaping and dough handling? But it worked best for me. I used a white all purpose flour with a 30% dark rye, with 80% hydration, and my starter is 100%. Thank you for doing this experiment. Love your videos I’ve learned a lot from them.
To see what would happen, I did a 9 hour autolyse. I mixed everything together except the starter and let sit overnight on the counter. I then mixed in the starter and proceeded as outlined in this video with 3 stretch and folds, time in the refrigerator, etc. 1. The dough passed the window pane test after the first stretch and fold, so the other two were maybe not needed. 2. The oven spring was better than usual. 3. The crumb was a bit rubbery, perhaps even a bit gummy. Maybe the enzymes had started to break down the gluten?
Seems that all your experiments involve a sample size of one. It might be interesting to do 4 (or more) loaves with everything the same to see the sample-to-sample variability. Maybe it is as big as some of the differences you are trying to assess.
Love your channel!
I like mixing flour and water together and letting it rest for a couple hours while I wait for my starter to get ready. I find the dough easier to work with that way but I think going forward I'll mix in the starter and salt at the same time.
Pretty sure without seeing the video in its entirety that the results will be fairly similar with all four methods. I live in a high altitude and learned the fermentalyse method and have pretty much stuck to it but I’m in favor of mixing everything together as the process of adding the salt after the fermentalyse can be a pain depending on your hydration level.
Just wanted to say a big thank you 🙏 for your bread calculator. Amazing of you to create that and put it out there for all to use. It has really helped me a lot! Thank you Sune, very much. 😊💐🙏
My prediction was that it wouldn't make much difference, and that the mix all method would be the best because of less fussiness. But, even though Sune did say that the mix all was the least fussy, it looks to me that the salted autolyse makes the most open crumb. I would have liked to see the sniff and taste test here to find out if the different autolyse methods made a difference in the final flavor.
Sune has mentioned in another reply that they all tasted exactly the same
I enjoy your scientific approach to sourdough and started using the salted autolyse method based on your previous videos. Next time, I'm trying the all at once method. One thing I do is dissolve the salt in the water before adding the flour. I don't know if this is any better than adding the salt to the water and flour, but I feel the salt is more evenly distributed if it is dissolved in the water before adding the flour.
I have done the salted autolyse and got the best oven spring I have had in a long time. I baked it on my preheated stone and used a Pyrex bowl as a cover. It filled my bowl. So now I went and bought a bigger bowl!! Unfortunately the Brovn baker is not available to shop to the U noted States or I would have ordered one already!
Thanks for the great tips!!
Thank you Sune for sharing all these experiments.
I started baking since watching you. Yes I just mix all and let the starter does it’s crazy thing. They all came out surprisingly good. I don’t even have a Dutch oven. I just use two 13 x 9 aluminum pans held together with 2 metal clips placed on a heavy cookie sheet. I must admit that I have been feeding my starter with all kinds of organic stuff and watch it gone bubbly crazy while I’m singing lullaby. 😂
. “Keep doing what your doing good”
Hello, nice video ! I could point out something about autolyse from my little experience. The major difference it make to me is only practical as you need less kneading with the autolyse method and it show ifself even more if the hydratation is higher. But i think you can't really try out autolyse using this fermentation delay. In the end, you have all the time in the world (16H) to develop flavor and fermentation. Maybe if you have to produce your bread in like 6H, it would make a difference. Or if you're a baker, you can start an autolyse and do something else during this time. When making dought, what is important is time.
I'm more on the lazy side of things so I like the salted autolyse, just gives me some buffer when I forget a agitation-cycle while watching TV or strolling youtube. But I start it earlier, I just mix my starter together and sice I have the scales out anyway start the salted autolyse at the same time. Just with the recent heatwave I autolyse in the fridge so that nothing touches my dough in a non-decent way! 5-8 hours od autolyse give me a really nice glutten-buffer against any kind of mistakes. Tested it when I smashed the bowl with the ready starter after mixing the rest and so I put the rest in the fridge and got a new starter on it's way, bread way great so I keept things that way.
I always autolyse with everything exept the salt because salt draws the moisture out of things and i have heard that its best to wait with the salt, so thanx for this video. If mixing everything is just as goid i will do this
Thank you very much for your experiments, that's exactly how things should be taught so we know the reason behind all the steps we do, thanks to your videos I've been getting consistent good results with my SD breads, me and my relatives love them, thanks once again!
Thank you for answering my question from a few weeks ago about "what happend to autolyse", with this video! Could not wish for a better answer!
Maybe the flour that Sune uses is too good :) I guess autolyse comes in handy if you have lower quality flour and you need some extra time for gluten developement without the dough becoming overfermented.
Experiment time part 2?
Always wondered about that. For 20% rye that is very good development..
I've tried it due to the unavailability of bread flour in the early weeks of lockdown, with a 9.4% flour @80% a 2 hour autolyse before adding starter and salt gave a better result than my usual fermento-lyse. I was pleasantly surprised that both methods produced quite decent loaves with such a low protein flour. The main difference was that the long autolyse gave me a stronger dough that made shaping easier.
I've been using mix-all method for a long time with the flour (type 55) I buy in nearby supermarket that costs 0.45-0.6 euro per kilo, the bread comes out excellent. I live in France, I don't know about other countries though.
@@annabellelee8167 I use T65 flour, but I add a little bit of vital wheat gluten (Portuguese supermarket flours are low in protein)... It made a difference in shaping and handling the dough. But it's also cheap flour and it has turned out ok... But better flours taste nicer i think (my friend has artisan flour and the taste is better)
Thank you Sensei. This experiment was most valuable. You are 100% right about ease of making the loaf is so very important. If all ingredients can be mixed at the outset, it eliminates extra steps that are spaced out at 30 minutes apart. It allows us to fit bread making into more days. Thank you for all that you do and share with us.
Four very nice loaves that anyone would be proud of.
I have been using mix all for years out of speed, lack of fussiness and less risk of doing it wrong when busy and distracted. Unless I'm the only one that has done that.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks so much for this! I keep going back and forth-so far I think I like my own results using regular autolyse just a bit more. The dough sticks less and the rise (at least in my experiment time(!) seems somewhat better. Many thanks, however, for clearing up the fact that you can combine everything with a similar result! I’ve wondered about you changing your methods and so far, all of your recommendations have been good ones!
I love how you conduct your experiments. Your methodology is always impeccable and here, proves beyond reasonable doubt that different methods aren't that significant in the final outcome, and this extremely useful information. It tip my hat to you!
My go-to bread recipe is 50% home milled flour, which I mill using a modified commercial coffee grinder. This results in a fairly coarse flour with bran shaped like flakes, which has been a challenge for gluten development. For this recipe, I have found, after much experimenting, that the best results in terms of dough behaviour and rise, was to let the whole wheat portion of the flour autolyse overnight with all the water, adding the rest of the ingredients the next day. My interpretation is that the whole wheat soup turns the sharp bran flakes and coarse flour grains into a much softer material that doesn't interfere too much with gluten development, so that when I add the other ingredients, dough develops and rises almost as nicely as if it were all white flour.
Of course, I would prefer a mill producing much finer flour, a constant temperature proofer and a climate controlled kitchen, but I can live with the variations in texture, crumb shape and density it produces because the great taste I get from freshly milled wheat makes these imperfections seem insignificant :-)
From what I understand, if you mix everything together and you leave it in the fridge overnight, this creates an auto lyse. Therefore, your 16 hour final proof in the fridge should create an auto lease by design.
If the dough you're making does not require overnight rise in the fridge, then you need to just mix the dough water and flour 1st and let that sit for at least an hour, such as with sandwich bread.
I don't know yet what your results are (I paused like you suggested), but for me the mix all method has given reliable results every time. With both starter and dry yeast, I've made breads with salt included for the fermentation/leavening, and without, adding at the end. The breads taste the same regardless of when the salt goes in, and they all have a similar structure, but one method is more of a pain in the butt than the other. So now all my breads are simpler to make.
My favorite method is fermentolyse, then add the salt about 20 minutes later, wait 20 minutes then do a lamination fold. You need only about 2 stretch and folds after that. Mixing everything in the beginning has not yielded as good of results for gluten strength unless I'm using a mixer.
Love your sourdough video's Sune! Your style of explanation is brilliant. Low key but very informative and helpful. Your enthusiasm is infectious. Your tests help teach the underlying fundamentals that if understood, allow one to make their own adjustments. Rather than simply following a recipe, you help us understand what is happening in the dough. Thus we can learn better technique and ultimately become better at the ART of sourdough. Thank you.
Thanks :D That's exactly what I am trying to do. Make people their own recipe developers, or at least know when something in a recipe they use may be off, due to their environment, flour, starter or whatever else can be different :)
I find a long autolyse (like overnight) gives me the best results. Salt does have some effect on the dough texture in the morning when I add starter but the end result either way is good.
I was a salted altolyse guy until today . Now I'm a mix everything guy thanks to Sune . Love your videos , man . Thank you
I think this was nice official confirmation, but I would say throughout your videos thus far, you have proved that a true autolyse isn't really needed; your mix-all breads have been looking fabulous for weeks now! As always, Sune brings the science into our kitchens, and it's a treat.
I mixed all together. That was easy and i think it saved time.
Yay! I've been formally vindicated with my mix-all approach
Glad to see you're rocking all that youtuber-merch. So far I've seen RoomieOfficial, Davie504, RyanGeorge and I think even more. Great work as always, I feel like I learn so much watching your channel. Keep it up!
Robert Steinberger charles cornell too :D
I am a big fan of the scientific method and this is as close as we get. What we are told to do may be far from practical or truth and this is a great example. Thanks sune for proving it. Making sourdough is a process. Why not make that process easier to incorporate into your day?
Coming from a soft water area I've found salted autolyse helps in reducing the stickiness of my dough.
Hi Sune can you do an experiment on when is best to add extra ingredients like cheese or walnuts? there are a few options on the internet, curious to see your take on it :) BTW love your content!
I've been using the 'all in' method successfully after noticing that's what you've been doing lately. However, I'm going to try mixing a salted autolyse at bedtime and feeding the starter at the same time. Then put the autolyse in the fridge overnight while the starter develops as well and both can be mixed in the morning so the bake happens earlier in the day.
I’ve been wanting to try that too but the thought of having to bring cold dough up to temperature gives me pause.
I have been mixing everything I.e. your machine method. I am open to discover the best result.
I make whole grain loaves, they vary from 70% to 100% whole grain. I believe the overnight autolyse helps flavour development, taking away some of the bitterness of the whole wheat. I find find it to be an easy step, so for now, I will stick with it. But thanks for the video though.
Well, Sune, I think you’ve just demonstrated what we all suspected all along. I have eschewed all of my arcane sourdough rituals. You have separated the bakers from the ballet dancers. I’m going to take off my tutu and go knock out a loaf. Thank you! And, yes, I have been hypnotized.
Thanks again Sune. Sticking with the mix all. Your bread always looks amazing.
This may be the most important video you have made about sourdough bread. I've been puzzled by the many, and sometimes contradictory, methods that bakers present as gospel-truth. Your video gives weight to the idea that there is no single correct way. Instead, many methods give good results.
I've long suspected that there is a multitude of acceptable methods. Some of your tried-and-true techniques don't work for me. For example, my starter collapses long before it triples in volume. As a result, I wait until my starter has doubled, or almost doubled, before I use it. Also, I skip at least one step from your method. I have never pre-shaped my loaves. Instead, I go directly from bulk fermentation to shaping. So I question whether pre-shaping is necessary... but maybe you can test that in a future video!
I find pre shaping not necessary when my dough is strong enough. If it is on the slacker side, I pre shape.
I find preshaping super wet dough makes it easier to handle when doing the final shape. Not needed with lower hydration loaves
I'm new having done six batches. I haven't yet done the pre-shape, but I've ordered a metal bench scraper and plan to try doing this, as Sune's test showed that it does make a difference. But he's saying that autolysing doesn't matter, so I might try to skip that step since it adds a lot of time to the process.
That's the first time I've seen your window pane fail after three stretch and folds. I have yet to EVER pass a window pane even after upwards of six stretch and folds, for some reason (half-hour between each). I need to find one of your videos for shaping for a bowl. IMHO, the salted version looked like it had better rise and crumb. Your neighbors must love you as I'm guessing you keep them in a steady supply of bread. :)
I agree the salted auto had superior crumb! But was is because of the changed variable, or random noise?
That is what I call a "pro". Excellent teacher, excellent personality. Thanks!
Sune! What can you say about the salted autolyse? Other commenters here and I agree that salted Autolyse looks more open. Look at the comparison shot! Do you think it was just random/handling or an actual difference from the changed variables?
The flour and water were mixed for longer, because bulk starts later when you add the starter later. Maybe that lets the gluten develop longer, allowing a slightly more open crumb?
Maybe you can account for that by just reducing the inoculation in the 'mix all' approach, or maybe by doing a bit more stretch and fold. Also, it's really hard to control only one variable at a time: I think the changes were small enough to maybe just be a bit expected deviations rather than one method being fundamentally better.
thank you so much for making this video. I am so happy that I found it. at least I don't need to bother to do autolyse in my sourdough bread. just cut my time. thanks again
An interesting video - thanks! It raised some questions. Would the results have been different with an all whole grain bread? I suspect that autolyse wouldn't do much for rye, but how about whole wheat?
Also, could you add affiliate links for the dark covered mixing bowls you are using, as well as the oval bannetons? The banneton link you provide only shows round bannetons and the oval ones you are using are very attractive.
I've tried with and without, but I use a stand mixer to get to window pane test and I don't think there's much advantage to autolysing. But if I was going to bench-knead I would definitely autolyse to make the dough easier to work with
That shot at 14:48 is great!
I have almost always used the "fermentolyse" method (though I don't let the salt lie on top but mix it in later) except for a couple of times more recently when I mixed everything at the start. My experience was that there was no difference in the result. Mix All is for me from now on.
As always, Sune, thanks for running this experiment for us. You doing this probably saved me about a year of baking tries and errors. (I have that last part down to a science.) On your final, side-by-side comparison, it appeared that the fermentalyse didn't seem to have quite the "ear" of the others. Can I deduce from that there was less oven spring than the others had?
Keep on showing us ways to simplify this detail-dependent process!
Have you tried mixing the starter with the water first? It makes a sort of starter ‘milk’ then add the flour and salt. I find that it mixes together easier. Doesn’t seem to make a difference in the bread, but anything easier I’ll take.
I'm glad you did this experiment, I had been using a mix all method but after watching a few of your videos decided I needed to up my bread game with autolysing. I found I often missed the timing of the 80% risen leaven to start it off, and 3 times the gluten in the autolyse was so stringy it made it super hard to mix. Can I ask now that, based on the results of this experiment, you will update your sourdough for beginners recipe?
Mix all with a stand mixer and no stretch and folds works too!
I stopped following recipes and started just going by feel and what's easiest. Now I'm making my best bread!
Depending on my daily schedule I have used two different mixing methods. If it is a weekend day or I am off from work then I like to autolyse at least 90 minutes before I add the levain. However, if I have a full day of work ahead of me, I like to mix everything at once - the way Sune does it in his “The world’s easiest sourdough recipe” but I don’t just leave it to rest, I do some rubaud method for about 5 - 8 minutes and I do about 6 sets of folds during the course of 8 - 10 hours. I normally get great bread with both methods of mixing
all-the-lyse works best for my sourdough, the only time autolyse offers better gluten development is when using additives like ascorbic or citric acid, milk powder, or buttermilk powder
Yes...I am practicing eating less of this delicious bread...once slice a day...🥺. You make baking sour dough bread fun and much more of an art project...being an artist, It is right up my ally.
nice video! i've tried both "fermentolyse" and "mix together" methods and I have obtained the same results. Thanks for sharing your work.
I do a fermentolyse 2 -- Mix starter in water then add in flour. 1 to 1.5 hrs add salt. Do first fold maybe 30-45 minutes. I don't find my first fold looks so ragged. I bulk more than 20% though.
Glad the mix it all together turned out nice. It is easier.
I would like to see a mix all together test of Dissolve the starter in water then add flour/salt compared to add flour then starter water then mix (as you did in this video).
I think the dissolve starter in water first makes it easy to mix and spread the starter around but would like to see if there's a difference.
Thank you so much for your delightfully informative videos! I have been mixing everything together based on the first easy recipe I tried (ATK "almost no knead") but have been incorporating more that I've learned from your videos with time (and increased experience for this beginning baker). The true autolyse adds time but I thought it would be better in terms of outcome. You have proven otherwise in your expert hands! Thank you!
Enjoying your videos. I have two questions. 1. Which is you favorite recipe for sourdough that includes a bit of olive oil, and some of the added diostatic malt flour? Do you have a video on how best to incorporate other items into the dough, like sun-dried tomatoes and olives, or raisins and nuts? I have currently have 8 pizzas dough balls (300 grams each) resting in the fridge, made yesterday following your recipe. It was fantastic using the malt flour and olive oil, so smooth and easy to work the dough! Thanks, David
I assume you're using fully active starter in all of these. I would love to see an experiment where you use unfed starter that isn't at peak activity with a longer bulk ferment compared to your normal method. Thank you for this great Video. I am unlearning everything I thought I knew about sourdough bread baking thanks to you. I really do appreciate you cutting through the myths and superstitions and making sourdough baking more simple and enjoyable for everybody.
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@@hpottstock Thanks for letting me know about this video. I must have missed it when it first came out.
I have been doing a version of the fermentolyse method recently. However it does not require me to let the salt rest on top as shown in the video. I fermentolyse for 3 hours first, then add the salt (not sure if that's really any different) and processed to do 3 sets of stretch and folds over the next 3 hours. So far in my young sourdough baking journey, this method has worked the best for me.
Did you try the mix all method? Autolyse I'd not really for sourdough, since the fermentation is so long anyway 😊
@@Foodgeek I was doing the mix all method at the very beginning when I started out. My early bakes just weren't very impressive. But perhaps it's just because I was too new to it at the time. Maybe if I try the mix all method again my bakes will turn out better than before since I've gained more experience. I also wonder if it has anything to do with my starter being older. I read that your starter becomes stronger and more lively over time.
@@paulwarren6062 I think you are right about the experience playing a part in it :)
A starter is new each time to free it. If you have lots of yeast in a new starter, it won't be more potent than one that was started years ago.
I find that starters' powers go down when seasons change, and they need to be "turbo-charged." I usually do that by a series of 1:100:100 feedings, and it's back in shape :)
@@Foodgeek What is it about the 1:100:100 ratio that turbo-charges a starter (compared with say 1:5:5)?
@@hu_b You are giving a small colony of yeast and over abundance of food 😊
I just discovered your channel and I love it! It’s exactly like how mei leaf finds the best of each variable in tea to make the best tea ever. I adjusted my sourdough recipe so much based on all the info from your videos!
This was helpful. I have been using the Mix All method for about a year now. I had been in a hurry and needed to skip the autolyse step. When I saw, and tasted, no difference, I thought "why bother?"
I mix everything together at the beginning and have delightful results! Looking forward to see where yours end up 😬
I am a fairly new baker but I think they will all be close, except for the one with the starter. I agree, it will probably make it better faster.
I think you find that there is no difference because all the stretch and fold build a nice gluten structure in all cases. What would be interesting to test is autolyse with no stretch and fold vs mixing everything together with stretch and fold. Thanks for all your great videos
Well, a long fermentation that essentially works as an autolyse. Autolyse is a method that was meant to help yeasted breads develop gluten before yeast is added, because this rise is so short.
Sune, I love your videos, however I wish you would add information about what temperature you used to ferment the bread and how long it took to reach 25% increase in size.
Thanks Taryn
Thank you! I’ve been wondering about this. Great to know that now I can shorten the total time and use this “less fuss” method.
a-HA! 😅 I started mixing it all together a while back, after watching different videos where they did this and other orders of procedures, but always wondered if I was missing something.
“Why make things more complicated when you don’t have to” is there best question. Unfortunately I think there’s a tendency of people to adopt unnecessarily complex procedures because they saw someone else do it and didn’t question it, and sometimes out of a sense of it being “more professional.” I see the same thing in gardening and horticulture. (Do you *really* have to have those exact percentages of soil components, and layered in the exact same way as that famous German horticulturist, to get a Stapelia to grow? Probably not. Will it make any difference? Maybe.)
Thanks as always for actually doing the experiment!
Awesome experiment Sune, thank you! I always mix everything all at once, make 4 breads at the same time, and they come out perfect. I bake them in the oven per 2 with some steam.
I liked the open crumb on the salted autolyse so I'll be giving that one a try. Thanks!
Love the idea of “I’m an experiment there not you” so a baker can watch your results and make a decision ❤️
Happy to see the results. I prefer to mix the salt at time of autolyse, as that way I will not forget to add it. Also I think it gets a better mix into the dough.
Thank you very much Sune for this experiment! I also found no significant benefits from doing true autolyse. Thank you for dispelling the true analyse myth! I love your scientific approach to sourdough bread making - always having an open mind to experimenting and changing approach where necessary. Cheers!
I agree that judging from the crumb alone, there seems to be little difference in those four bakes, but I'm disappointed that Sune didn't go further to judge on taste as well. That's at least as important as crumb.
Having tasted them all I can attest that there is absolutely no difference in taste 😊
The backing tracks on this vid are SICK!
I enjoy your videos, have learned lots of technique. You’re a great teacher. Perhaps I missed it but you usually compare taste and texture in your experiments. I suspect the mix all and fermentalyse were more flavorful. I’ve always preferred longer fermentation for more flavor and chewy texture.
It's not long enough to make a difference in taste :)
I knew it wouldn’t make that big of a difference 😂 we’re really just doing it because we’re told to 😂
Nothing more limiting than "but we ALWAYS do it this way!", is there?
@@JustinThought1980 I agree, you remember the story about grandma's ham?
@@marklbreen Exactly! And you always have to keep in mind that there's a very fine line between "tradition" and "stuck in a rut."
@@marklbreen i only now grandma's fish... what is the story about the ham? 🤷🏽♀️😉