I’ve stopped worrying about how open the crumb is. As long as the great taste is there my family loves the bread. I used to obsess about it but everyone kept saying how they loved the bread no matter what. I use a Dutch oven and get a wonderful crust with a nice oven spring. That’s all I care about.
@@ainsly5931 never be afraid to fail)) even the failures are still edible. I got a 70% hydration loaf to come out lookin like this, got overzealous n made a 100% white bread flour with 80% liquid - frustrating disaster. So I'll stick with 70% until I find a thirstier flour I guess.. never give up!!
The thing is, the 75% fermentation tighter crumb is much more useful. I don't understand why open crumb has been made the holy grail of crumb structure. Bakeries never go for that for obvious reasons.
I am not a fan of very open crumb, in and of itself, but great experiment. The obvious (to me) next experiment is 0% fermentation, or in other words, skip the bulk fermentation and go straight to the loaf formation after your 3 folds.
Every time I watch one of your videos I am moved to ask whether I know anything at all. It seems that damn near EVERYTHING about sourdough is a myth. Autolyse. Proper Fermentation. Active Starter. You’ve demonstrated that nothing matters. So what DOES matter? My bread has gotten better and better, which I’ve always attributed to refinement of my process, but then your experiments show that none of that matters. So why has my bread gotten better? It’s a mystery.
@@aumthakore450 yeah, actually. “Proper fermentation”. Hmmmm. I’ve fermented the hell out of my dough and the bread comes out perfectly fine. Autolyse is a waste of time. It makes zero difference to the final product. Peak starter? Doesn’t matter. I’ve used it early. I’ve used it late. Changes the timing is all but I don’t go by the clock anyway - too many variables can change the times. What DOES matter? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@aumthakore450 I’ve played around a lot with temperature also. It does matter but I start at 250° and my oven spring is just as good as lower temperatures.
Could it be that you got better at actual handling of the dough? That’s what I have been feeling with my bread-making experience. The muscle-memory you pick up over several sessions of shaping and transferring bread matters more than following ingredients and instructions given by someone else. For rich breads with too many ingredients, muscle memory doesn’t matter at all. You can get it right in one try as long as you stick to the recipe. But for country loaves, flatbreads, artisan loaves, sourdough, unleavened dough etc, literally your hands make or break the bread. Not the dough necessarily.
I've never understood the obsession with an open crumb. To me, this just looks like a pain to spread butter on, and when there are several big holes in the same area, it falls apart while eating. To each his own, but I much prefer the 75% loaf.
I think for you a sourdough sandwich bread recipe would be best? This style isn’t really for spreading butter on i guess. But the airiness makes it pretty irresistible.
EXACTLY! I've been eating sourdough since early childhood. Avocado toast with lemon, PB and honey sandwich in our lunch sacks and garlic bread for dinner. My mom made it very tart with no giant holes and not too dense.
I started making bread during the first lockdown. Started making sourdough bread during the seconds lockdown. Have experimented with every technique I’ve seen on YT and have settled on a simple no kneed technique where I just use 10% sourdough starter, stir in the water to make a slurry, add the salt, stir in the flour just enough so it’s thoroughly combined then put in the fridge for 3 days. Turn out, shape leave for 90 minutes and bake. Makes a great sandwich. Tastes fantastic. Repeated stretching and resting to strengthen the gluten just so it can hold a bigger bubble always struck me as a bit of a pointless exercise.
it's because it's an exercise in achieving something difficult. Also once you can achieve an open crumb you can then work towards getting the most ideal crumb you desire and you'll be a better baker for it. Have you ever had a grilled cheese with a really open crumb bread? Some of the cheese melts and crisps up in the holes and it makes the best grilled cheese you can get.
Interesting results, for sure! I'm thinking that even though it was only 10% growth during the bulk, because your kitchen was really warm, that means the dough will have also been pretty warm. And therefore fermented longer than normal once in the fridge, since it would take quite a while for it to cool the yeast down sufficiently. So, like, perhaps it was actually closer to 20-25% growth by the time it cooled down
Great experiement! Putting them in the fridge doesn’t stop fermentation really, it just slows it down. So you’d have to control the time in the fridge to be equal between them. My own experience matches your conclusion, shorter bulk fermentation yields more open crumb and higher spring.
Wild crumb is not the best idea. Maybe not open crumb either, depending on how open it is, but the two are different things I often see used interchangeably.
Could you demonstrate what you mean by 10%, 25%, 50% and 75% fermentation? To me it would mean a rise of those percentages from the height when the dough was placed in the containers. I really like those Cambro storage containers with their markings. They combine Heinrick's (TheBreadCode) hack which uses a separate small container to measure the rise. The Cambro containers eliminate any problems using two containers. I also like the dough whisks to get the mixing started.
Would have been helpful to show in the video how you determined the various percentages of fermentation. Interesting since many bread bakers go for 100% rise.
Interesting. I get similar crumb to yours by doing more (up to 6) stretch and folds, then pre and final shape. Throw into the fridge; bake tomorrow. I always felt that I was ending up with around a 15% fermentation, but honestly, I didn’t want more crumb lest it became impractical. So glad you confirmed what I have believed for years! It’s ok to be lazy and cut out steps and still get the best results you’d ever want. Not feel guilty and not feel I’m disrespting the tried and true process. Love your videos…… keep it up please.
I like honey on my bread, none of these slices would keep it from seeping through them. 😆😂 With the kinds of flours I have available atm. I only produce very even crumb without any holes, but I'm fine with that.
This is fascinating, I would've never guessed a 10% rise would yield such results. I always thought that the more you 'stretch' the fermentation time (just before over-proofing the dough) the more open your crumbs will be.
I think that is still true? Am I going crazy or is everyone seeing something different to me here? The 50 and 75 have more open crumbs, but just more even open crumbs. The first 2 have large irregular pockets with dense areas around those holes. Especially near the crusts of the 10 and 25 : clear underfermentation
I've actually had times when I've had to skip the proofing step all together due to time and have had success. Maybe an experiment between proofing vs non proofing?
There are differing definitions of “open crumb”. To me there’s big voids / pockets of air, but that’s not what I consider an open crumb. You can have an open crumb without big holes. There’s open crumb and then there’s wild crumb. The 10% has a more wild crumb, but is the crumb that isn’t pockets of air more open? If the breads are the same size after bake, the one with huge pockets of air will have to be more dense elsewhere. This is definitely a fascinating experiment, but I have questions.
Sune, thxs. Your experiments are always interesting. I love my bread but have never gotten a truly open crumb. I started using King Arthur bread flour (U.S.) recently because I thought it was flour-related. Still not great. Have been trying for about 100% rise during bulk fermentation. Going to scale it back and see if that makes a difference. Your breads always look awesome.
Just chiming in here. Oven spring comes from a higher protein flour and building strong gluten. If you are using King Arthur Bread Flour, you should be fine as that rocks in around 12.5%. You never want to aim for 100% rise during bulk fermentation that that means your dough is going to be overproofed. Aim for 35-50% and ensure you keep it at a specific temperature range depending on the flour used and inoculation. Higher the temperature, the shorter the proof time (vice versa). Same applies with inoculation. Cheers and happy baking.
Thank you for doing this experiment. The results, to say the least, are counterintuitive. This explains why my sourdough has a tighter, more uniform crumb than I would expect. I have always pushed the bulk to 75% to 100%. I'll back off a little and see how it affects my bakes.
HI Sune, Brazil here. Tks for all your videos. They are great and teach me a lot. I have one question, why did you change the way you shape the dough? Tks.
Hey Sune, while watching this video all I kept thinking about was temperature. It seems like it goes against everything we've learned thus far to ferment to only 10% but you are definitely one of the experts that I defer to. Do you think you can remember the DDT and the temp at which you bulked? I would like to try this for myself. I even ordered, and have received some of your caputo flour! Thanx for all your videos and knowledge! Keep the recipes coming! Your friend, Dawn from USA.
Hey Sune...... Thank you very much for teaching us in an easy and interesting way. Today I just have finished my 1st Sourdough bread. I didn’t taste it yet but the smell is very distinguishable. I used regular stainless steel cooking pot since I tried to order cast iron but is out of stock. I have to bake for another 20 minutes on 180 deg. I am a professor doctor and I don’t have time but it was very interesting to have a good starter and take all the steps necessary to have a successful bread loaf. I am planning to watch your video... strengthen your starter. Also, I would like to know if you have a video for sourdoughs bread without bulk fermentation in the fridge! Thanks very much Prof. Dr. Tarek El gohary
Very interesting thanks! Have you also tried starting from a cold oven? I heard it helps as well with oven spring especially when the bread has proofed longer than usual.
Always very interesting experiences. I would be curious now to see the results of both extremes: no bulk fermentation at all (as suggested by A Podlofsky), and an over-fermentation (about 5-6 hours) at room temperature, to see the difference. How would be the crumb? Experiment time...
To be honest, i´m baking now for many years. I never understood the philosophy of this very big holes in the bread. This is simply not usfull if you like to have butter on your slice of bread or anything like jam or other things such as hney etc. This always leads to a big mess. For me, the 75% brad is of higher quality and is usfull for evry da life compared to the others. I mean, it seams to be a kind of sports to make the bread which consists as much air as possible. 75% is best here, if you like to eat the bread. The others are ok, if you like to look at it and be happy about air pockets in your bread...
I'm not a huge fan of open crumb. But my immediate problem is failure to get decent oven spring. Happens nearly all the time and I still don't understand why. Regarding your measurements of 10%, 25%, and so on -- these are percentages of what in particular?
Thanks for the comparison video. I want a good oven spring, nice ear, and bubbly crust. Husband wants a more closed crumb so the butter doesn't leak through. I will use between 50 and 75% rise, thanks for the help!!
Your bread is always beautiful. I don't care for super open crumb, I find it nearly useless to make a sandwich with, or even as toast. The 75% looked best to me.
Sunes -- Your experiments always instruct and entertain. Thank you. I'm surprised that the 75% fermentation didn't cause a tangier (more full-bodied?!) flavor. Off topic: what flour and flour combinations do you most often use? And why?
He makes a mark on the side of the bulk proofing container, and watches for the percentage (usually 25) increase in volume. In other words he judges by volume, not by time.
What was the temp during your fermentation? Seems like it was pretty warm. Can you redo this experiment at a room temp of around 72? I think this temp is pretty common for home bakers , especially during the winter. Also I love 80% hydration bread with holes! Anyone how doesn’t probably hasn’t tried it or can’t achieve it!
I recently started to mill my own flour. I have used einkorn, emmer, and hard red winter wheat. I have been experimenting on percentages. Recently, I used the freshly milled flour in my starter. My theory is that you should feed the starter with the same flour as you use in the bread so the microbes unique to the flour can thrive when it goes into the bread. (Not sure if it makes a difference but it seems intuitively right to me.) My first attempt to use milled flour in the starter did not go well. I needed to reconstitute the starter with my usual flours. Have you tried to use freshly milled flour in the starter with better success? Also, the milled flour does not have the gluten and oven spring. Should I do some slap and folds to build the gluten structure? Thanks for all the videos. They have helped my baking considerably.
Thank you for the experiments. You seem to do an experiment just about the time I'm thinking about trying it on my dough. It saves me time. My loaves still aren't getting the great oven spring you get. Great crumb but not spring. Have you tried letting the loaves rise some after final shaping, instead of putting into the fridge immediately?
That was very informational, I 100% didn't expect the results to be like this. I cold ferment my bread at least a day in the fridge. They taste awesome afterwards, but the crumb is nowhere this air/bubbly. Did yours taste different ?
All breads looks nice. I prefer more tight crumb to spread Butter better. My favorite is our typical german "Mischbrot" made of 40% rye and 60% wheat. It has a very tight fine crumb and withstand even the harder winterbutter…
So with less fermentation it retains more power to do it's thing it would seem. So many contradicting techniques out there, but this shows it as it is. Just the right amount of open crumb on the 25%, even the 50% for me i would call that a success. Thank you.
Could you do this experiment with a much higher percentage of a whole grain flour? Mine come out too tight most of the time. Or should the inoculation be a higher percentage when the flour is whole grain?
That is really strange. I have ALWAYS heard that you should target to doubling in size. So 100% expansion. That is normally what I go for. but then my crumb is normally pretty tight and I dont get those big bubbles. Still tastes great. but now I wonder if I should really do less fermenting! So strange!
Dough will rise to double, then will have ran out of puff. For tin loaves, you do all the rising like this. Mostly pre baking. For sourdough and oven spring, you leve some 'gas' power in the tank so it can really spring in oven. Hth
Hi Sune. What happens to the crumb if you let it ferment in the basket after the shaping? The obvious thought would be that the crumb would get more open if the dough does not overferment and the gluten collapses! Could be a good experiment. Greets Danish Per in Norway
Thanks for educating us. I managed to achieve beatiful oven spring but still coping with damn open crump. The timing to achieve 10,25, 75% rise starts counting after the 3rd set of strech and fold. Correct? If i need 4 sets of strech and folds should i start timing after the fourth set? Is this because every strech and fold destroys the bubbles and reset the fermentation time?
To me the 75% looks best. 10% would be second. However, I don't quite understand your appreciation of bubbles/blisters on the crust. In France, where I am from, these are considered a defect that gives a false sense of crispiness to the crust; and then the look is not pleasant to us. This said, thank you for your very interesting videos which I much enjoy!!
Okay, I work with baker’s percentages; know that. But I thought you mention in the beginning that your batch was 80% hydration for all 4 loaves. Soooo-are you now telling me there were four separate hydrated doughs-10%. Hydration, 25% hydration, 50% hydration, 75% hydration …? if so, WOW! I’ve never seen (or heard of) a 10% hydration, let alone with that kind of open crumb with so little hydration! Or conversely, such a poor open crumb for 75% hydration…. And I thought this video was about fermentation times…?
I have olive oil with a bit of lemon on my toaster every morning I prefer it on the bread then through the holes on the plate. Tight crumb for me thanks.
P.P.S. I would recommend longer rest (detente) after making the ball (mise en forme) and also a longer final resting period (appret) till the dough reacts slowly to a finger push. I also do not believe that baking dough which has just been taken out of the fridge is a good method. In my experience, it is better to let it come to about 17C + internal and then put it back into the fridge for 10mn. But then, of course we all have different tastes and standards. Kind regards
P.S. I believe there are also limits to desirability of open crumb. The crumb should be well opened but also regular/even. Having big holes here and there don't do.
Hey there! Man - I've watched your videos, this one like 5-6 times. I have a very active starter, I'm using either a 70% or 75% hydration, I have good gluten development (window pane, etc.), and I'm getting some oven spring, 30 min. lid on @500, 15-20 minutes lid off @ 450, but it's still coming out a little dense and really gummy. I've tried longer fermentation (almost 100%), shorter fermentation (50%), hand mixing and stretch and fold, and machine mixed, and keep getting the same result. Gummy. The temp inside the boule is 210 and I let it cool for 3-4 hours before cutting. Any help or suggestions would be amazing!!
I'm having the same problem. I've been using rye flower when I feed my starter, so I wonder if this has some effect. The bread tastes really good, but I wish I could solve the gumminess problem (I also let my bread cool down for 3 hours or so before cutting).
@@Foodgeek thank you! I will definitely look into getting one. I LOVE your videos. I just started making sourdough and I use your master recipe. My loaves are beautiful and delicious thanks to your experiments! I never imagined I'd be able to bake such fantastic bread!
Yes, i am looking for the Holy Grail of open crumb. My loaves seem to rise more than i would like while in the fridge over night as of late and i think this is preventing my ovenspring from reaching it's potential. Do you have any ideas? Colder fridge yes. Thanks for your videos!
@@Foodgeek Thanks for the response. I will get a thermometer to be exact. I am also going to keep it in the vegetable cooler on the bottom instead of the top shelf. It should not rise much if any while in the fridge overnight right?
Synne can you tell me if 2.5 hours of fermentation for the 10% loaf meant that it was 2.5 hours since you mixed the ingredients right? Because if you did 1 hour autolyze and 3 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart which = 2.5 hours already …so did the 10% loaf only ferment in the Cambrian container for less than 10 minutes or so? What would you say is the most critical factor in getting an open crumb? Would you say it is this video … meaning less fermentation gives open crumb and big oven spring? I used to get an open crumb and don’t now… I think I am fermenting too long now that I saw this video!
Bemærkede du nævnte at du ikke brugte din proofer den her gang fordi dit køkken var varmt nok i forvejen. Kan det være at hele dejen hævede så meget under stræk og fold pga. den højere rumtemperatur, at når du endelig kom til bulk, så var dejen allerede hævet måske 20-30? Det vil hvertfald forklare hvorfor brødet med kun 10% så så godt ud.
It occurs to me that there’s an assumption that fermentation stops once the dough is placed in the refrigerator. This is not actually the case. Fermentation does eventually stop, but it continues to ferment, progressively slower, for many hours. I’d be curious what the pH of the dough is when it goes in and when it comes out of the refrigerator. That would give an indication of how much fermentation occurred overnight. Or what happens if you bake that 10% rise right away? I’ll bet it would come out like a brick.
Great experimenting! But sooner or later, somebody eating your bread might not want to wear the T-Shirt "I love gluten" anymore... The experiment that will count is to go for lower protein/gluten flour. You will get a completely different mouth feel and there's a big variety of wheats with interesting and lovely taste. And, it's the taste that matters most (in my opinion).
At what point does it become JUST a hobby and not a useful edible bread. Big open crumb....how big, when is enough? I think people are kidding themselves at some point. Consistency matters. Who wants bread that can't even hold butter?
Just because it's not for you doesn't mean that it doesn't hold value for other people. Texture matters and an open crumb bread has a vastly different texture than a closed crumb. No, it's not great for putting on butter or making a sandwich, but it is very satisfying to eat nonetheless :)
@@Foodgeek Never said open crumb wasn't for me. That's a misrepresentation of what I said. Been eating it for decades. But in recent years it seems people have made a game of how big of holes one can make. That game is not for me.
This experiment has some bias, since the fermentation process continue inside the fridge. Foodgeek have you measure how much more it ferments inside the fridge?
Hi Sune! Have you ever experimented on "cold retard"? I reckon cold retard gives better flavour to the bread and other experts said it makes the scoring easier. Does Cold Retard enhance oven spring?
Sune, You might need to do an experiment with more than just Bread Flour...maybe do it again with like 80% Bread Flour and 20 % wholewheat or Rye and see what you get. I almost never bake with just Bread Flour.....
I’ve stopped worrying about how open the crumb is. As long as the great taste is there my family loves the bread. I used to obsess about it but everyone kept saying how they loved the bread no matter what. I use a Dutch oven and get a wonderful crust with a nice oven spring. That’s all I care about.
Plus it’s harder to spread stuff on more open crumb. I’m with ya on that.
I think the same, with the exception that I can never get a good oven spring 😓
@@ainsly5931 never be afraid to fail)) even the failures are still edible. I got a 70% hydration loaf to come out lookin like this, got overzealous n made a 100% white bread flour with 80% liquid - frustrating disaster. So I'll stick with 70% until I find a thirstier flour I guess.. never give up!!
@@KazzArie LOL, thank you, I'll keep trying!
The thing is, the 75% fermentation tighter crumb is much more useful. I don't understand why open crumb has been made the holy grail of crumb structure. Bakeries never go for that for obvious reasons.
I am not a fan of very open crumb, in and of itself, but great experiment. The obvious (to me) next experiment is 0% fermentation, or in other words, skip the bulk fermentation and go straight to the loaf formation after your 3 folds.
Every time I watch one of your videos I am moved to ask whether I know anything at all. It seems that damn near EVERYTHING about sourdough is a myth. Autolyse. Proper Fermentation. Active Starter. You’ve demonstrated that nothing matters. So what DOES matter?
My bread has gotten better and better, which I’ve always attributed to refinement of my process, but then your experiments show that none of that matters. So why has my bread gotten better? It’s a mystery.
😂😂😂🤣 found an answer yet? I've been wondering the same thing
@@aumthakore450 yeah, actually. “Proper fermentation”. Hmmmm. I’ve fermented the hell out of my dough and the bread comes out perfectly fine. Autolyse is a waste of time. It makes zero difference to the final product. Peak starter? Doesn’t matter. I’ve used it early. I’ve used it late. Changes the timing is all but I don’t go by the clock anyway - too many variables can change the times. What DOES matter? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@haysdb I've seen that temperature does matter and when it's baked above 230°c the oven spring isn't all that great.
@@aumthakore450 I’ve played around a lot with temperature also. It does matter but I start at 250° and my oven spring is just as good as lower temperatures.
Could it be that you got better at actual handling of the dough? That’s what I have been feeling with my bread-making experience. The muscle-memory you pick up over several sessions of shaping and transferring bread matters more than following ingredients and instructions given by someone else. For rich breads with too many ingredients, muscle memory doesn’t matter at all. You can get it right in one try as long as you stick to the recipe. But for country loaves, flatbreads, artisan loaves, sourdough, unleavened dough etc, literally your hands make or break the bread. Not the dough necessarily.
I've never understood the obsession with an open crumb. To me, this just looks like a pain to spread butter on, and when there are several big holes in the same area, it falls apart while eating. To each his own, but I much prefer the 75% loaf.
Ditto!
I think for you a sourdough sandwich bread recipe would be best? This style isn’t really for spreading butter on i guess. But the airiness makes it pretty irresistible.
EXACTLY! I've been eating sourdough since early childhood. Avocado toast with lemon, PB and honey sandwich in our lunch sacks and garlic bread for dinner. My mom made it very tart with no giant holes and not too dense.
I started making bread during the first lockdown. Started making sourdough bread during the seconds lockdown. Have experimented with every technique I’ve seen on YT and have settled on a simple no kneed technique where I just use 10% sourdough starter, stir in the water to make a slurry, add the salt, stir in the flour just enough so it’s thoroughly combined then put in the fridge for 3 days. Turn out, shape leave for 90 minutes and bake. Makes a great sandwich. Tastes fantastic. Repeated stretching and resting to strengthen the gluten just so it can hold a bigger bubble always struck me as a bit of a pointless exercise.
it's because it's an exercise in achieving something difficult. Also once you can achieve an open crumb you can then work towards getting the most ideal crumb you desire and you'll be a better baker for it. Have you ever had a grilled cheese with a really open crumb bread? Some of the cheese melts and crisps up in the holes and it makes the best grilled cheese you can get.
This is actually been one of my favorite experiments you’ve done very insightful and I truly learned a lot from it thank you!
Thanks man for doing all that testing!! Much appreciated
Great videos. I appreciate you spreading your knowledge.
I always learn so much here
Greetings from Canada! I love your videos, keep up the great work! I've tried many of your recipes and they work very well.
Interesting results, for sure! I'm thinking that even though it was only 10% growth during the bulk, because your kitchen was really warm, that means the dough will have also been pretty warm. And therefore fermented longer than normal once in the fridge, since it would take quite a while for it to cool the yeast down sufficiently. So, like, perhaps it was actually closer to 20-25% growth by the time it cooled down
This is the answer
Great vids my friend! Keep it up.
Great experiement! Putting them in the fridge doesn’t stop fermentation really, it just slows it down. So you’d have to control the time in the fridge to be equal between them. My own experience matches your conclusion, shorter bulk fermentation yields more open crumb and higher spring.
Under about 3C it basically stops fermentation. 😊
@@Foodgeek true but it still takes time for the dough to come to temperature and even then, the fermentation keeps it warmer.
Sune, have you done an experiment with various retard times? 8hrs, 24hrs, 48hrs, etc, etc and what effects it has on taste?
Thank You for another great video.😁
If you love toasts with extra virgin olive oil like me, open crumb is not the best idea! 😂 But good to know, thank you!
Wild crumb is not the best idea. Maybe not open crumb either, depending on how open it is, but the two are different things I often see used interchangeably.
Open crumb is not the best idea if you like toast w/ any spread. It’s only great for sandwiches w/ meat and cheese+veggies.
Could you demonstrate what you mean by 10%, 25%, 50% and 75% fermentation? To me it would mean a rise of those percentages from the height when the dough was placed in the containers.
I really like those Cambro storage containers with their markings. They combine Heinrick's (TheBreadCode) hack which uses a separate small container to measure the rise. The Cambro containers eliminate any problems using two containers. I also like the dough whisks to get the mixing started.
Would have been helpful to show in the video how you determined the various percentages of fermentation. Interesting since many bread bakers go for 100% rise.
Interesting. I get similar crumb to yours by doing more (up to 6) stretch and folds, then pre and final shape. Throw into the fridge; bake tomorrow. I always felt that I was ending up with around a 15% fermentation, but honestly, I didn’t want more crumb lest it became impractical. So glad you confirmed what I have believed for years! It’s ok to be lazy and cut out steps and still get the best results you’d ever want. Not feel guilty and not feel I’m disrespting the tried and true process.
Love your videos…… keep it up please.
Thank you for saving me days and days of frustrating trial and error!
I like honey on my bread, none of these slices would keep it from seeping through them. 😆😂
With the kinds of flours I have available atm. I only produce very even crumb without any holes, but I'm fine with that.
Ditto. The best chance might be the 75% (or more?) to close up that crumb.
This is fascinating, I would've never guessed a 10% rise would yield such results. I always thought that the more you 'stretch' the fermentation time (just before over-proofing the dough) the more open your crumbs will be.
foodgeek has shattered many myths to do with baking.
I think that is still true? Am I going crazy or is everyone seeing something different to me here? The 50 and 75 have more open crumbs, but just more even open crumbs. The first 2 have large irregular pockets with dense areas around those holes. Especially near the crusts of the 10 and 25 : clear underfermentation
@@KingofHassi Sune did mention himself that the 50% and 75% had a tighter crumb.
@@hannahsuhaili8642 Yeah I understand he said that, I'm saying I don't agree with his assessment of what 'open crumb' is!
I love your T-Shirt!!!
Thanks Sune. Love your experiments! Do you know what temperature your fridge is? Thanks
I've actually had times when I've had to skip the proofing step all together due to time and have had success. Maybe an experiment between proofing vs non proofing?
I’m not found of open crumb… try to spread butter over a hot slice of an open crumb bread… you’ll end up licking the plate…
There are differing definitions of “open crumb”. To me there’s big voids / pockets of air, but that’s not what I consider an open crumb. You can have an open crumb without big holes. There’s open crumb and then there’s wild crumb. The 10% has a more wild crumb, but is the crumb that isn’t pockets of air more open? If the breads are the same size after bake, the one with huge pockets of air will have to be more dense elsewhere. This is definitely a fascinating experiment, but I have questions.
Don't spread the butter, use a thick slice instead ;-)
Sune, thxs. Your experiments are always interesting. I love my bread but have never gotten a truly open crumb. I started using King Arthur bread flour (U.S.) recently because I thought it was flour-related. Still not great. Have been trying for about 100% rise during bulk fermentation. Going to scale it back and see if that makes a difference. Your breads always look awesome.
Just chiming in here. Oven spring comes from a higher protein flour and building strong gluten. If you are using King Arthur Bread Flour, you should be fine as that rocks in around 12.5%. You never want to aim for 100% rise during bulk fermentation that that means your dough is going to be overproofed. Aim for 35-50% and ensure you keep it at a specific temperature range depending on the flour used and inoculation. Higher the temperature, the shorter the proof time (vice versa). Same applies with inoculation. Cheers and happy baking.
Thank you for doing this experiment. The results, to say the least, are counterintuitive. This explains why my sourdough has a tighter, more uniform crumb than I would expect. I have always pushed the bulk to 75% to 100%. I'll back off a little and see how it affects my bakes.
HI Sune, Brazil here.
Tks for all your videos. They are great and teach me a lot.
I have one question, why did you change the way you shape the dough?
Tks.
Hey Sune, while watching this video all I kept thinking about was temperature. It seems like it goes against everything we've learned thus far to ferment to only 10% but you are definitely one of the experts that I defer to. Do you think you can remember the DDT and the temp at which you bulked? I would like to try this for myself. I even ordered, and have received some of your caputo flour! Thanx for all your videos and knowledge! Keep the recipes coming! Your friend, Dawn from USA.
Hey Sune...... Thank you very much for teaching us in an easy and interesting way. Today I just have finished my 1st Sourdough bread. I didn’t taste it yet but the smell is very distinguishable. I used regular stainless steel cooking pot since I tried to order cast iron but is out of stock. I have to bake for another 20 minutes on 180 deg.
I am a professor doctor and I don’t have time but it was very interesting to have a good starter and take all the steps necessary to have a successful bread loaf.
I am planning to watch your video... strengthen your starter.
Also, I would like to know if you have a video for sourdoughs bread without bulk fermentation in the fridge!
Thanks very much
Prof. Dr. Tarek El gohary
Very interesting thanks!
Have you also tried starting from a cold oven? I heard it helps as well with oven spring especially when the bread has proofed longer than usual.
Always very interesting experiences. I would be curious now to see the results of both extremes: no bulk fermentation at all (as suggested by A Podlofsky), and an over-fermentation (about 5-6 hours) at room temperature, to see the difference. How would be the crumb? Experiment time...
Super interesting!
To be honest, i´m baking now for many years. I never understood the philosophy of this very big holes in the bread.
This is simply not usfull if you like to have butter on your slice of bread or anything like jam or other things such as hney etc.
This always leads to a big mess. For me, the 75% brad is of higher quality and is usfull for evry da life compared to the others.
I mean, it seams to be a kind of sports to make the bread which consists as much air as possible.
75% is best here, if you like to eat the bread. The others are ok, if you like to look at it and be happy about air pockets in your bread...
I'm not a huge fan of open crumb. But my immediate problem is failure to get decent oven spring. Happens nearly all the time and I still don't understand why.
Regarding your measurements of 10%, 25%, and so on -- these are percentages of what in particular?
that's super interesting thank you so much for the video!
do you remember exactly how long your doughs were resting in the fridge for?
Something like 18 hours :)
Nice video sune. Any tips to have such a few slices?? Actually, slice uniformly is a difficult part for me...
Thanks for the comparison video. I want a good oven spring, nice ear, and bubbly crust. Husband wants a more closed crumb so the butter doesn't leak through. I will use between 50 and 75% rise, thanks for the help!!
Awesome 👏🏻
Your bread is always beautiful. I don't care for super open crumb, I find it nearly useless to make a sandwich with, or even as toast. The 75% looked best to me.
Sunes -- Your experiments always instruct and entertain. Thank you. I'm surprised that the 75% fermentation didn't cause a tangier (more full-bodied?!) flavor. Off topic: what flour and flour combinations do you most often use? And why?
I was hoping for a taste test on this one.
Great video as always..
I may have missed it in the past videos, but I would be interested in how do you measure how far in the fermentation you are?
He makes a mark on the side of the bulk proofing container, and watches for the percentage (usually 25) increase in volume. In other words he judges by volume, not by time.
This is why he always uses a square and transparent container to see and estimate the dough raising during the bulk fermentation.
Very interesting video - can you confirm that the rise% values are measured from after the S&F's (ie about 2hrs after initial mix). Thanks.
What was the temp during your fermentation? Seems like it was pretty warm. Can you redo this experiment at a room temp of around 72? I think this temp is pretty common for home bakers , especially during the winter. Also I love 80% hydration bread with holes! Anyone how doesn’t probably hasn’t tried it or can’t achieve it!
I recently started to mill my own flour. I have used einkorn, emmer, and hard red winter wheat. I have been experimenting on percentages. Recently, I used the freshly milled flour in my starter. My theory is that you should feed the starter with the same flour as you use in the bread so the microbes unique to the flour can thrive when it goes into the bread. (Not sure if it makes a difference but it seems intuitively right to me.) My first attempt to use milled flour in the starter did not go well. I needed to reconstitute the starter with my usual flours. Have you tried to use freshly milled flour in the starter with better success? Also, the milled flour does not have the gluten and oven spring. Should I do some slap and folds to build the gluten structure? Thanks for all the videos. They have helped my baking considerably.
I feel like if he used Design of Experiment this experiment series would be a hell of a lot shorter haha.
Thanks for an interesting experiment. Tell me please, what percentage of protein is in flour?
Thanks.
Thank you for the experiments. You seem to do an experiment just about the time I'm thinking about trying it on my dough. It saves me time. My loaves still aren't getting the great oven spring you get. Great crumb but not spring. Have you tried letting the loaves rise some after final shaping, instead of putting into the fridge immediately?
Yes, I tried it :)
ruclips.net/video/pANDs2R0GdI/видео.html
the 10% dough did show sings of underfermentation though. Open crumb is literally the main sign of underfermentation.
Useful thanks. How about taste? Don’t you lose flavour with shorter fermentation time?
That was very informational, I 100% didn't expect the results to be like this. I cold ferment my bread at least a day in the fridge. They taste awesome afterwards, but the crumb is nowhere this air/bubbly. Did yours taste different ?
Thanks Sune
Sune, where did you get the lids for your Rosti bowls ? I ordered a set of 3 off your Amazon link but they do not come with lids.
All breads looks nice. I prefer more tight crumb to spread Butter better. My favorite is our typical german "Mischbrot" made of 40% rye and 60% wheat. It has a very tight fine crumb and withstand even the harder winterbutter…
So with less fermentation it retains more power to do it's thing it would seem. So many contradicting techniques out there, but this shows it as it is. Just the right amount of open crumb on the 25%, even the 50% for me i would call that a success. Thank you.
Could you do this experiment with a much higher percentage of a whole grain flour? Mine come out too tight most of the time. Or should the inoculation be a higher percentage when the flour is whole grain?
That is really strange. I have ALWAYS heard that you should target to doubling in size. So 100% expansion. That is normally what I go for. but then my crumb is normally pretty tight and I dont get those big bubbles. Still tastes great. but now I wonder if I should really do less fermenting! So strange!
He has said before that it's because it already rises some before starting the bulk fermentation. IIRC.
Dough will rise to double, then will have ran out of puff.
For tin loaves, you do all the rising like this. Mostly pre baking.
For sourdough and oven spring, you leve some 'gas' power in the tank so it can really spring in oven. Hth
@@ipedros7 thanks! That makes sense!
Hi Sune. What happens to the crumb if you let it ferment in the basket after the shaping? The obvious thought would be that the crumb would get more open if the dough does not overferment and the gluten collapses! Could be a good experiment. Greets Danish Per in Norway
Does the percentage of protein of the flour not also has an influence onto the bulk fermentation together with the duration of it ?
Thanks for educating us. I managed to achieve beatiful oven spring but still coping with damn open crump. The timing to achieve 10,25, 75% rise starts counting after the 3rd set of strech and fold. Correct? If i need 4 sets of strech and folds should i start timing after the fourth set? Is this because every strech and fold destroys the bubbles and reset the fermentation time?
I prefer the 75% result 👍 I don’t want an open crumb rather a airy one.😁
To me the 75% looks best. 10% would be second. However, I don't quite understand your appreciation of bubbles/blisters on the crust. In France, where I am from, these are considered a defect that gives a false sense of crispiness to the crust; and then the look is not pleasant to us. This said, thank you for your very interesting videos which I much enjoy!!
So it’s that simple-just the percentage in growth from original dough ball, as judged by your eyes?
It's like you didn't watch the whole video: ruclips.net/video/eroSKcWzb4E/видео.html :)
Okay, I work with baker’s percentages; know that. But I thought you mention in the beginning that your batch was 80% hydration for all 4 loaves. Soooo-are you now telling me there were four separate hydrated doughs-10%. Hydration, 25% hydration, 50% hydration, 75% hydration …? if so, WOW! I’ve never seen (or heard of) a 10% hydration, let alone with that kind of open crumb with so little hydration! Or conversely, such a poor open crumb for 75% hydration….
And I thought this video was about fermentation times…?
No, it's about growth of the dough. 10% rise, 25% rise and so on. And obviously 10% rise is a faster fermentation time than 25% 😊
I have olive oil with a bit of lemon on my toaster every morning I prefer it on the bread then through the holes on the plate. Tight crumb for me thanks.
P.P.S. I would recommend longer rest (detente) after making the ball (mise en forme) and also a longer final resting period (appret) till the dough reacts slowly to a finger push. I also do not believe that baking dough which has just been taken out of the fridge is a good method. In my experience, it is better to let it come to about 17C + internal and then put it back into the fridge for 10mn. But then, of course we all have different tastes and standards. Kind regards
P.S. I believe there are also limits to desirability of open crumb. The crumb should be well opened but also regular/even. Having big holes here and there don't do.
Hey there! Man - I've watched your videos, this one like 5-6 times. I have a very active starter, I'm using either a 70% or 75% hydration, I have good gluten development (window pane, etc.), and I'm getting some oven spring, 30 min. lid on @500, 15-20 minutes lid off @ 450, but it's still coming out a little dense and really gummy. I've tried longer fermentation (almost 100%), shorter fermentation (50%), hand mixing and stretch and fold, and machine mixed, and keep getting the same result. Gummy. The temp inside the boule is 210 and I let it cool for 3-4 hours before cutting. Any help or suggestions would be amazing!!
I'm having the same problem. I've been using rye flower when I feed my starter, so I wonder if this has some effect. The bread tastes really good, but I wish I could solve the gumminess problem (I also let my bread cool down for 3 hours or so before cutting).
Hey Sune! Your slices are so even and thin! Do you use a bread slicer/guide?
An electric meat slicer 😊
@@Foodgeek thank you! I will definitely look into getting one. I LOVE your videos. I just started making sourdough and I use your master recipe. My loaves are beautiful and delicious thanks to your experiments! I never imagined I'd be able to bake such fantastic bread!
Open crumb toasts well :-) I have to say I was a little surprised about then 10%
Yes, i am looking for the Holy Grail of open crumb. My loaves seem to rise more than i would like while in the fridge over night as of late and i think this is preventing my ovenspring from reaching it's potential. Do you have any ideas? Colder fridge yes. Thanks for your videos!
What temperature is your fridge? It needs to be below 3°C/35.5°F 😊
@@Foodgeek Thanks for the response. I will get a thermometer to be exact. I am also going to keep it in the vegetable cooler on the bottom instead of the top shelf. It should not rise much if any while in the fridge overnight right?
@@artvandelay1555 Yes, the fridge is cooler at the bottom than at the top so that is a good idea :)
Salam I'm from Algeria.i liked your experience.i want ask you. Is 10 % probably one hour of fermentation or more?knowing that my kitchen is hot.
Can you get open crumb on a dry instant yeast?
Why do you rest it for 15 minutes? Thank you. 🌺
What is meant by 10% or 25% fermen tation
How its possibile? At 10% up to 75% is the bread underproofed? When the loaves reach 100%, during baking?
I like the 75% one
how did you measure the 10 %, 25 % and so on of total fermentation if you dont know what that time would be ?
I just mark on the outside of the bulking container where it's grown by that percentage 😊
Synne can you tell me if 2.5 hours of fermentation for the 10% loaf meant that it was 2.5 hours since you mixed the ingredients right? Because if you did 1 hour autolyze and 3 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart which = 2.5 hours already …so did the 10% loaf only ferment in the Cambrian container for less than 10 minutes or so? What would you say is the most critical factor in getting an open crumb? Would you say it is this video … meaning less fermentation gives open crumb and big oven spring? I used to get an open crumb and don’t now… I think I am fermenting too long now that I saw this video!
It's 2.5 hours from the time I put it in the Cambro :)
Would you be able to show an “experiment time” to achieve the insane blisters you have??
Well, it’s partly hydration, partly correct fermentation, but the last important variable is the flour 😊
Sorry if this is a dumb question but 10% fermentation? Does that mean it rose 10%? i.e 100% would mean doubled in size?
Not dumb at all. You are right though. 100% is doubling :)
...big crumb...little crumb...is it really important if your bread has fox holes all over that butter and toppings fall through?...
Has anyone tried a Bieberbit yet at Tim Hortons? Any good?
Totally open crumb .. wow what a great idea .. let all that is put on the bread fall right through the holes ... doesn't make sense to me
"Free the Glutens" - Tom Waits
Bemærkede du nævnte at du ikke brugte din proofer den her gang fordi dit køkken var varmt nok i forvejen. Kan det være at hele dejen hævede så meget under stræk og fold pga. den højere rumtemperatur, at når du endelig kom til bulk, så var dejen allerede hævet måske 20-30? Det vil hvertfald forklare hvorfor brødet med kun 10% så så godt ud.
i love gluten too, but my tummy does not D:
So fermentation means how long you let it fermented. I guess that is what you are trying to say
It occurs to me that there’s an assumption that fermentation stops once the dough is placed in the refrigerator. This is not actually the case. Fermentation does eventually stop, but it continues to ferment, progressively slower, for many hours. I’d be curious what the pH of the dough is when it goes in and when it comes out of the refrigerator. That would give an indication of how much fermentation occurred overnight. Or what happens if you bake that 10% rise right away? I’ll bet it would come out like a brick.
You are right 😊 Which is why my method requires at least 8 hours retard before baking 😊
10% ,25%of what ? Did I miss something?
It's baker's percentages, so all of the flour is 100% 😊
Great experimenting! But sooner or later, somebody eating your bread might not want to wear the T-Shirt "I love gluten" anymore... The experiment that will count is to go for lower protein/gluten flour. You will get a completely different mouth feel and there's a big variety of wheats with interesting and lovely taste. And, it's the taste that matters most (in my opinion).
No gluten, no real bread.
This experiment is not accurate for whole wheat sourdough bread and usually the best result is with 100% fermentation.
Well, I have an experiment on just that in the editing machine, so we'll see if your prediction is right or not soon 😁
what was the percent i dind got?! percent of what?
Do you wait an hour between stretch and folds?
No, 30 minutes 😊
At what point does it become JUST a hobby and not a useful edible bread. Big open crumb....how big, when is enough? I think people are kidding themselves at some point. Consistency matters. Who wants bread that can't even hold butter?
Just because it's not for you doesn't mean that it doesn't hold value for other people. Texture matters and an open crumb bread has a vastly different texture than a closed crumb.
No, it's not great for putting on butter or making a sandwich, but it is very satisfying to eat nonetheless :)
@@Foodgeek Never said open crumb wasn't for me. That's a misrepresentation of what I said. Been eating it for decades. But in recent years it seems people have made a game of how big of holes one can make. That game is not for me.
This experiment has some bias, since the fermentation process continue inside the fridge. Foodgeek have you measure how much more it ferments inside the fridge?
Hi Sune! Have you ever experimented on "cold retard"? I reckon cold retard gives better flavour to the bread and other experts said it makes the scoring easier. Does Cold Retard enhance oven spring?
open crumb = underfermented OR shaping error
Sune, You might need to do an experiment with more than just Bread Flour...maybe do it again with like 80% Bread Flour and 20 % wholewheat or Rye and see what you get. I almost never bake with just Bread Flour.....
I bake 80% bread flour and 20% whole meal with a 65% hydration. The results are pretty damn good if I say so myself.
Ni ni ni ni
Ni!
I guess you want a shrubbery
I don’t get the bread with no bread in it. If I wanted to eat air, I’d just breathe in. 😂