Interesting video. As they were all quite tight, an interesting follow up video would be checking if less shaping, minimal shaping and basically no shaping (maybe just pre-shaping) gives more or less the same results as anything else.
Tight shaping is BS. I shape loose, I don’t pinch the ends together. I don’t stitch. What I do is let the dough dry out in the refrigerator overnight and then I delay scoring for 5 minutes after I put it in the oven. The dry skin and lack of a long incision hold the bread together. Besides, after 14 hours in the refrigerator do you really think your tight shaping is going to matter? Oh, and the bread comes out perfectly wonderfully fine, with precisely the same hydration as if you’d jealously retained all that precious water before baking.
@@nooralqadri2225 I haven’t been covering it at all. I’ve used tea towels. I’ve used plastic, both loose and tight. I will say though, if you leave it too long in the refrigerator, like close to a day, it’ll get kinda mummified. I’ll probably go back to a tea towel as a compromise.
I live for sourdough bread! I am a beginner in learning to bake it. Your channel has been the most excellent source of information and instruction for me to be successful in doing so! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. With every video, I learned something new. You have tackled every area of baking my most favorite bread!
Nice video. I have noticed that flour is most important to open crumb. I have taken proofed dough and did very little if no shaping and the bread had nice open crumb with high protein flour.
Was expecting at least one loaf to be shaped just with the dough scraper without the folding and rolling of the fermented dough ? Thanks for the experimenting anyway ,,,
Your hard treatment to #4 is way softer than my lightest touch! I guess I am gentle with the ladies but hard with my dough. Going for the softest touch on my next batch! Thanks FG!
So what’s fascinating…and at the same time rather frustrating…is that your experiments have shown that within a relatively wide range: (1) shaping doesn’t matter, (2) baking temperature doesn’t matter, and (3) percent rise during bulk fermentation doesn’t matter. Taken together, this would imply baking sourdough is a forgiving process and success should be easy. But it’s not always easy. Have you identified the “critical factors” that we really need to nail in order to bake great loaves? As always, I really appreciate all your efforts to make and share these wonderful videos.
Just made a sourdough bread with almost no shaping process. I thought it would fall flat, but to my surprise I had good oven spring and even crumb. I didn't get large open crumb, but that is probably because my hydration level was only about 75%. I find sourdough bread very forgiving. I love your experiment videos. I've learned so much. Thanks
Great video, but maybe try shaping your loaves with different techniques? 1.pre-shape only (dough ball in basket) 2. roll after pre-shape 3. shape like you did a couple of years back (flap-flap-roll) 4. shape with your current technique?
Thank you for another fascinating experiment Sune. Did it seem to you that loaves one and two grew wider and taller? It appeared that way to me. If that is the case, does that mean that the extra stitching in the banneton makes for a firmer outer layer that constrains the dough's upward and outward expansion?
You should do a video sometime where you list 3 things that actually do matter, since all of your experiments demonstrate that almost nothing we think matters actually does. Active starter. Peak starter. Inoculation percentage. Fermentation. Shaping. Scoring technique. Baking temperature. I just made a bread where I broke nearly every rule and it came out perfectly fine. I must have still done the critical things correctly, but what even are they? What *IS* important?
Active starter and fermentation are the most important. If you care about how the bread looks, shaping is important. If you care about open crumb flour is important :)
@@Foodgeek Didn’t your own test show that an “active starter” doesn’t make a difference? I just baked a loaf with 20% day-old starter. Liquid and acidic. It turned out perfectly normal and wasn’t even sour. I don’t think it matters as much as conventional wisdom dictates. As for shaping, I turn my dough out of the Pyrex dish, fold the sides to the middle, gently roll it up, and put it in a banneton. That’s it. Yeah, I usually pinch the ends closed and do a stitch to make it look pretty, but after 16 hours in the refrigerator, whether I do any of that doesn’t really seem to matter all that much.
Sune, great video. pretty much how I expected it...I tried a similar experiment. I tried looking for that Caputo flour in the states...No luck.!! Look forward to the next video.
VERY interesting. Can't wait for the next video. I've been resisting using anything but grocery story bread flour until now, because the custom bread flours are so much more expensive. Will you be able to demonstrate they are worth the cost, I wonder.
Same here Kath, the 'bread flour' in my supermarket are at least 2 (if not 3) times more expensive than the normal plain flour, while the protein is about the same (+/- 1%)!
I've definitely seen other people run this experiment but they saw very clear differences in crumb as it relates to shaping aggressiveness. So there's maybe not enough of a difference in your shaping techniques for the 4 doughs, it's all the same motions. But this goes to show you don't need to baby your dough and worry too much about deflating.
Thank you for the info video on shaping. 😊 You said in next video, you’ll be testing strong bread flours. What about a test using an “average” bread flour, lower protein or AP flour adding vital wheat gluten to see how it compares? Hmmm 🤔 Thanks!! Bless you!
I bake only sandwich bread in pans. I started out shaping as in #1 in your experiment, but got tired of jam and mayo falling through the big holes. Now I totally degas between first and second rise. Flatten the dough hard before shaping. No more big holes! Not sure why large holes in bread seem to be sought after?
The "open crumb" thing seems to me to be a fad. Who in practical eating wants holes that let spreads fall through? Is the taste of an open crumb superior in some way? Because the practicality isn't.
Excellent work Sune. I wonder if shaping matters less with these loaves because you do the overnight retard after they have ben shaped? I would imagine there is more time for the loaves to homogenize and recover from their shaping/abuse. In other bread styles, there is a final shaping and a bench proof after a bulk ferment and before going in the oven. In these schedules the final loaf is probably much more sensitive to final shaping.
Hi Sune. Another very interesting video, thanks for that. I bake my bread based on a method that resembles your your Master Recipe. I find that all small variations in temp/bake temp/shaping, etc do not really give better or worse results. However I recently bought a new 25 kg bread flour and whatever I did, the bread was not as nice as before. Despite the fact that the protein % was the same. So, maybe protein % doesn't say it all and the quality of the protein does matter? I look forward to the next experiment!
You were too gentle with the last one. It would be nice to have seen an "extreme" like really stretch it out too far and punch it down way too hard, beat the stuffing out of it. Slam it down, maybe a leg drop off the top shelf... See if you end up with a loaf that looks like I baked it...
I think his dough was too wet for him to get very aggressive. Even in the final shaping, it was really sticking to his hands. If he had tried to get any more aggressive, his fingers might have cut right through to the counter.
Sune, I hope you can get some flour from the US. I know you have a lot of fans here and we use things like King Arthur BF, or maybe Pillsbury BF. Plus whole wheat and AP varieties.
@@Foodgeek Sune, King Arthur Flour has a channel and a few people that bake for them (Martin, Kye(?)). Ask King Arthur to send you some for free! You never know maybe they will do it.
Can we see one on the effect of sugar, molasses, honey, milk or other sweeteners on open crumb? My crumb seems to change drastically with just 30g of added sugar... is it just me?
Sune...for the hell of it I tried Amazon again after watching the video. I actually found a 5 kg bag of Caputo Manitoba Ora.( 11 lbs.) I will receive next week. A little expensive $32.00 for the bag. Hoping it will be worth it.
Sune, do you think bread made with a sourdough starter is intrinsically "tougher" than a comparable loaf made with baker's yeast? It seems that way, but I may be hallucinating again.
Yeah, I forgot to change the autofocus after I took pictures, and I didn't catch it :/ The frame rate should be fine, but I see what you mean. The raw footage is fine, but the rendered video is laggy. Weird.
Interesting video. As they were all quite tight, an interesting follow up video would be checking if less shaping, minimal shaping and basically no shaping (maybe just pre-shaping) gives more or less the same results as anything else.
Tight shaping is BS. I shape loose, I don’t pinch the ends together. I don’t stitch. What I do is let the dough dry out in the refrigerator overnight and then I delay scoring for 5 minutes after I put it in the oven. The dry skin and lack of a long incision hold the bread together. Besides, after 14 hours in the refrigerator do you really think your tight shaping is going to matter? Oh, and the bread comes out perfectly wonderfully fine, with precisely the same hydration as if you’d jealously retained all that precious water before baking.
@@haysdb when you put in the fridge to develop a skin do you leave it uncovered or loosely covered
@@nooralqadri2225 I haven’t been covering it at all. I’ve used tea towels. I’ve used plastic, both loose and tight. I will say though, if you leave it too long in the refrigerator, like close to a day, it’ll get kinda mummified. I’ll probably go back to a tea towel as a compromise.
All of the four handlings looked pretty delicate too me. Especially when compared with conventional kneading/rising/punching down techniques.
I live for sourdough bread! I am a beginner in learning to bake it. Your channel has been the most excellent source of information and instruction for me to be successful in doing so! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. With every video, I learned something new. You have tackled every area of baking my most favorite bread!
Nice video. I have noticed that flour is most important to open crumb. I have taken proofed dough and did very little if no shaping and the bread had nice open crumb with high protein flour.
Was expecting at least one loaf to be shaped just with the dough scraper without the folding and rolling of the fermented dough ?
Thanks for the experimenting anyway ,,,
Your hard treatment to #4 is way softer than my lightest touch! I guess I am gentle with the ladies but hard with my dough. Going for the softest touch on my next batch! Thanks FG!
So what’s fascinating…and at the same time rather frustrating…is that your experiments have shown that within a relatively wide range: (1) shaping doesn’t matter, (2) baking temperature doesn’t matter, and (3) percent rise during bulk fermentation doesn’t matter. Taken together, this would imply baking sourdough is a forgiving process and success should be easy. But it’s not always easy. Have you identified the “critical factors” that we really need to nail in order to bake great loaves? As always, I really appreciate all your efforts to make and share these wonderful videos.
Very interesting! I was guessing that shaping had a greater effect on the crumb. Really looking forward to the next video.
Just made a sourdough bread with almost no shaping process. I thought it would fall flat, but to my surprise I had good oven spring and even crumb. I didn't get large open crumb, but that is probably because my hydration level was only about 75%. I find sourdough bread very forgiving. I love your experiment videos. I've learned so much. Thanks
So happy I came across your channel. I’m new to sourdough baking and love the educational, experimental videos.
Glad you like them!
Great video, but maybe try shaping your loaves with different techniques? 1.pre-shape only (dough ball in basket) 2. roll after pre-shape 3. shape like you did a couple of years back (flap-flap-roll) 4. shape with your current technique?
A full degassing is kneading the dough prior to shaping.
Thank you for showing the 25% growth. Nice to see versus hearing about it
Please try different shapping methods. Anda different quantity of stretch and fold sets
Thank you for another fascinating experiment Sune. Did it seem to you that loaves one and two grew wider and taller? It appeared that way to me. If that is the case, does that mean that the extra stitching in the banneton makes for a firmer outer layer that constrains the dough's upward and outward expansion?
You should do a video sometime where you list 3 things that actually do matter, since all of your experiments demonstrate that almost nothing we think matters actually does. Active starter. Peak starter. Inoculation percentage. Fermentation. Shaping. Scoring technique. Baking temperature. I just made a bread where I broke nearly every rule and it came out perfectly fine. I must have still done the critical things correctly, but what even are they? What *IS* important?
Active starter and fermentation are the most important. If you care about how the bread looks, shaping is important. If you care about open crumb flour is important :)
@@Foodgeek Didn’t your own test show that an “active starter” doesn’t make a difference? I just baked a loaf with 20% day-old starter. Liquid and acidic. It turned out perfectly normal and wasn’t even sour. I don’t think it matters as much as conventional wisdom dictates. As for shaping, I turn my dough out of the Pyrex dish, fold the sides to the middle, gently roll it up, and put it in a banneton. That’s it. Yeah, I usually pinch the ends closed and do a stitch to make it look pretty, but after 16 hours in the refrigerator, whether I do any of that doesn’t really seem to matter all that much.
Also really glad to see the cross section slice analysis
Sune, great video. pretty much how I expected it...I tried a similar experiment. I tried looking for that Caputo flour in the states...No luck.!! Look forward to the next video.
Excellent video Sune, as always. Thanks.
VERY interesting. Can't wait for the next video. I've been resisting using anything but grocery story bread flour until now, because the custom bread flours are so much more expensive. Will you be able to demonstrate they are worth the cost, I wonder.
Same here Kath, the 'bread flour' in my supermarket are at least 2 (if not 3) times more expensive than the normal plain flour, while the protein is about the same (+/- 1%)!
King Arthur all purpose flour in USA has 11.7% protein. It’s almost as much protein as bread flour. Reasonably priced at Costco.
I've definitely seen other people run this experiment but they saw very clear differences in crumb as it relates to shaping aggressiveness. So there's maybe not enough of a difference in your shaping techniques for the 4 doughs, it's all the same motions. But this goes to show you don't need to baby your dough and worry too much about deflating.
Thank you for the info video on shaping. 😊 You said in next video, you’ll be testing strong bread flours. What about a test using an “average” bread flour, lower protein or AP flour adding vital wheat gluten to see how it compares? Hmmm 🤔
Thanks!! Bless you!
ruclips.net/video/6UPdNUbk8Qg/видео.html
@@Foodgeek thanks!! You're on it😃
Thanks so much for sharing this video, Mr Sune. I look forward in seeing your next video relating to using different flour types.
I bake only sandwich bread in pans. I started out shaping as in #1 in your experiment, but got tired of jam and mayo falling through the big holes. Now I totally degas between first and second rise. Flatten the dough hard before shaping. No more big holes! Not sure why large holes in bread seem to be sought after?
The "open crumb" thing seems to me to be a fad. Who in practical eating wants holes that let spreads fall through? Is the taste of an open crumb superior in some way? Because the practicality isn't.
love that you do these variations, Sune! thanks so much
I always learn from your videos. Thank you!
Thank you for this video...interesting outcome!
Great video once again - thank you!
Surprising results
Love you guitar collection.
Excellent work Sune. I wonder if shaping matters less with these loaves because you do the overnight retard after they have ben shaped? I would imagine there is more time for the loaves to homogenize and recover from their shaping/abuse. In other bread styles, there is a final shaping and a bench proof after a bulk ferment and before going in the oven. In these schedules the final loaf is probably much more sensitive to final shaping.
great video
Thank you :)
Hi Sune. Another very interesting video, thanks for that.
I bake my bread based on a method that resembles your your Master Recipe.
I find that all small variations in temp/bake temp/shaping, etc do not really give better or worse results. However I recently bought a new 25 kg bread flour and whatever I did, the bread was not as nice as before. Despite the fact that the protein % was the same. So, maybe protein % doesn't say it all and the quality of the protein does matter?
I look forward to the next experiment!
Thanks again for a great video!! If you livrd closer, I’d send you homemade maple 🍁 syrup from Quebec Canada to dip your bread in… Heavenly!!
THANK UUUU
You were too gentle with the last one. It would be nice to have seen an "extreme" like really stretch it out too far and punch it down way too hard, beat the stuffing out of it. Slam it down, maybe a leg drop off the top shelf... See if you end up with a loaf that looks like I baked it...
I think his dough was too wet for him to get very aggressive. Even in the final shaping, it was really sticking to his hands. If he had tried to get any more aggressive, his fingers might have cut right through to the counter.
is there a specific reason to put the dough into a seperate container for fermentation, couldn't you leave it in the bowl?
To be able to monitor the growth accurately 😊
@@Foodgeek thank you
Sune, I hope you can get some flour from the US. I know you have a lot of fans here and we use things like King Arthur BF, or maybe Pillsbury BF. Plus whole wheat and AP varieties.
It's really expensive to have it sent over here. Unfortunately.
@@Foodgeek Sune, King Arthur Flour has a channel and a few people that bake for them (Martin, Kye(?)). Ask King Arthur to send you some for free! You never know maybe they will do it.
Can we see one on the effect of sugar, molasses, honey, milk or other sweeteners on open crumb? My crumb seems to change drastically with just 30g of added sugar... is it just me?
Sune...for the hell of it I tried Amazon again after watching the video. I actually found a 5 kg bag of Caputo Manitoba Ora.( 11 lbs.) I will receive next week. A little expensive $32.00 for the bag. Hoping it will be worth it.
It's not cheap, but great flour 😊
Oh, can you send me the link?
@@Foodgeek smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08P7877J3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
@@Foodgeek Wow...just checked the protein for the Oro...it is 14.5 %
I will post the first loaf made with the Capito Manitoba on your FB
What if you were to let the dough rise 40-50%? My guess is the dough would not be nearly as resilient.
Depends to some extent on the flour but I think you’re right. I think the overnight in the refrigerator levels the playing field.
How do you prepare your banetons?
How long should the 25 percent growth take approx?
Sune, do you think bread made with a sourdough starter is intrinsically "tougher" than a comparable loaf made with baker's yeast?
It seems that way, but I may be hallucinating again.
Hi Sune, i don't know if in your country is available the flour "Farina Petra", if yes... give it a try, you'll be amazed 😉
What's the difference with the different numbers on the bag? 1, 3, 5, 9? What do those mean?
@@SuperDavidEF Are all stone-ground wholemeal flours. The difference is in the strength, with the 9 the one with the highest W
@@Piery83_ Ah! Thanks!
What happened to your video quality? Its focused on the guitars at the back and the frame rate is very low. Interesting video nonetheless!
Yeah, I forgot to change the autofocus after I took pictures, and I didn't catch it :/ The frame rate should be fine, but I see what you mean. The raw footage is fine, but the rendered video is laggy. Weird.
Thank you for reporting this. I found the culprit in my camera settings. It should look great again from the next video :)
@@Foodgeek no worries Sune! Glad I could be of help:)
I love your videos but your last few the sound and video quality has gone drastically downhill from where it's been the past year.
I didn't notice before, but this video the sound quality was really bad for me.
@@SuperDavidEF it's mostly in the intro and the outro of the video. The actual baking/experiment section is fine for the most part.
@@johndyke8735 Yeah, same for me here.
I found the problems, so it should look and sound good again from next video :)
@@Foodgeek Thanks. The content was still well worth watching.
No sense.....you are sharping every brad.
What?
He’s sharping every brad. Are you stupid? 😂