Looking forward to this one Andrew , I assume you have drawings and heat loss calculations. This lack of communication between heat pump suppliers ,underfloor heating suppliers/designers , builders and installer’s.
The builder had heat loss calculations carried out at the planning stage. There are probably some drawings for the layout I've underfloor heating pipes
Hi Andrew. I have a couple questions regarding the pumps if I may - Why 2 pumps in series and not one ? Will increasing the head significantly through undersized pipework not create excessive noise ? Presumably there will be no zoning at all ? Thank you.. Thought provoking as always.
The reason I use two pumps in series was that they were cheap and available. I was able to pick up to 8 m head 140 lbs each from my local merchant. It was a case of trial and error. I often do this with pumps rather than trying to calculate the unknown. This however was the first time I tried putting pumps in series since reading the vaisman technical guide where it says never to do this. We had concluded the modulating pumps in series would not work but if installed as fixed speed pumps they would be ok. This is what I did. Actually today I've done the first one and I've chosen to put the pumps in parallel and it has worked very well
The two pumps in series obviously gives a higher head and a higher flow but this is required to get the flow needed in the underfloor heating loops and it does not result in excessive velocity and so noise is not an issue
It’s just all so complicated. They may work well after you have left but give it 5 -10 years after a few repairs and some fiddling the systems will be next to useless (again). You shouldn’t need a degree in engineering to maintain a domestic heat system. I cannot help thinking in the lifetime of these systems the energy/carbon saved on its ‘efficiency’ is lost on the expense to maintain. Good job though Andrew (as always) 👌🏼
I'm not sure that I agree with your perspective. The logic behind going into heat pumps is to reduce CO2 emissions. We want to make that less painful for people by making it lower cost to operate. So if we can use less energy from a cleaner sorce for less money to operate we have nearly got everything with an improvement. The big difference with heat pump installation since the extremely high cost of installation. But I think in time the cost of heat pumps will come down gas boilers the installation cost shouldn't be too far different. The problem we have is about knowledge and I would not suggest this is degree level. Nothing we do is heating engineers is far above decent schoolboy science and physics. What we need is a government run training programme similar to the original apprenticeships that people of my age we're given on leaving school. This was 6 years of Day released to college to learn mathematics and design principles and metallurgy etc. In case I forget it electronics and electrics. What's the teething pains of transition are over heat pumps will become as common as normal as gas boilers did. With proper education and training Bose carrying out maintenance and fiddling as you put it comma would understand what they're doing.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 i do agree with you and did mention the degree a bit tongue in cheek.In my experience as a manager within the heating industry there is a huge skills gap now, and its getting worse. Businesses seem to want ready made engineers and do not have the time or money to train and upskill their staff, it takes time with proper mentoring. I believe as a homeowner you would struggle to find someone like yourself with the knowledge and skills to maintain these systems. Young adults are not being attracted into the industry and the training/apprenticeships required are just not available. The industry needs a shake up and you are right it needs to come from the top down. Unfortunately our government have not addressed this and i cant help but feel with the lack of big decisions regarding heat pumps, hydrogen we are sleepwalking into a big problem. Anyway thanks for your content. It is very informative and i tell all the youngsters i know in the industry to follow you and watch your videos👍🏼keep up the good work. 🙏🏻
On the system that I've already attended I found that the flow and the return on the primary side we're higher than the flow and return on the secondary side. This is like a plate heat exchanger rather than a buffer or a low loss header. I suspect that the buffer is not allowing good mixing and that the heat pump is just circulating it's own water through the buffer
The builders have already sold the houses they have occupants in them. The builders are really good and on the case and doing everything they can to get the systems rectified for the new owners
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410Well some of the cost is being passed on to the customer as now they have to pay for joule heating in some of the rooms. Ideally this would only be required when outside temps dip below 5 degrees AND if the heat pump was undersized by design. Since this was poorly installed in the first place, I assume that the heat pump is actually oversized. For context, in Norway heatpumps are designed to cover only 80% of a property's heat loss (they're design temps are well below -5 degrees Celsius).
Lol I've now modified a few of these and I'm getting very good results. I understand a lot of people have been frustrated by poor installations of heat pumps but really once they are sorted they can work very well
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 my biggest concern is reliability, longevity and availability of parts. So many companies are trying to get market share who knows who will still be around in 5 years and the end user is left holding the bag
This is good source material for a few videos. Presumably they gave you a copy of the full heating design specification issued by the prime?😉 Nothing more expensive as buying twice. It is a real shame and a completely wasted opportunity - nothing can be easier than putting in a full well designed heating system in a new build - especially when you can essentially rinse and repeat on the other units.
Really looking forward to these upcoming videos.
I'm loading them by the day are you enjoying them
Looking forward to this one Andrew , I assume you have drawings and heat loss calculations. This lack of communication between heat pump suppliers ,underfloor heating suppliers/designers , builders and installer’s.
The builder had heat loss calculations carried out at the planning stage. There are probably some drawings for the layout I've underfloor heating pipes
Hi Andrew.
I have a couple questions regarding the pumps if I may -
Why 2 pumps in series and not one ?
Will increasing the head significantly through undersized pipework not create excessive noise ?
Presumably there will be no zoning at all ?
Thank you.. Thought provoking as always.
The reason I use two pumps in series was that they were cheap and available. I was able to pick up to 8 m head 140 lbs each from my local merchant. It was a case of trial and error. I often do this with pumps rather than trying to calculate the unknown. This however was the first time I tried putting pumps in series since reading the vaisman technical guide where it says never to do this. We had concluded the modulating pumps in series would not work but if installed as fixed speed pumps they would be ok. This is what I did. Actually today I've done the first one and I've chosen to put the pumps in parallel and it has worked very well
The two pumps in series obviously gives a higher head and a higher flow but this is required to get the flow needed in the underfloor heating loops and it does not result in excessive velocity and so noise is not an issue
It’s just all so complicated. They may work well after you have left but give it 5 -10 years after a few repairs and some fiddling the systems will be next to useless (again). You shouldn’t need a degree in engineering to maintain a domestic heat system. I cannot help thinking in the lifetime of these systems the energy/carbon saved on its ‘efficiency’ is lost on the expense to maintain. Good job though Andrew (as always) 👌🏼
I'm not sure that I agree with your perspective. The logic behind going into heat pumps is to reduce CO2 emissions. We want to make that less painful for people by making it lower cost to operate. So if we can use less energy from a cleaner sorce for less money to operate we have nearly got everything with an improvement. The big difference with heat pump installation since the extremely high cost of installation. But I think in time the cost of heat pumps will come down gas boilers the installation cost shouldn't be too far different. The problem we have is about knowledge and I would not suggest this is degree level. Nothing we do is heating engineers is far above decent schoolboy science and physics. What we need is a government run training programme similar to the original apprenticeships that people of my age we're given on leaving school. This was 6 years of Day released to college to learn mathematics and design principles and metallurgy etc. In case I forget it electronics and electrics. What's the teething pains of transition are over heat pumps will become as common as normal as gas boilers did. With proper education and training Bose carrying out maintenance and fiddling as you put it comma would understand what they're doing.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 i do agree with you and did mention the degree a bit tongue in cheek.In my experience as a manager within the heating industry there is a huge skills gap now, and its getting worse. Businesses seem to want ready made engineers and do not have the time or money to train and upskill their staff, it takes time with proper mentoring. I believe as a homeowner you would struggle to find someone like yourself with the knowledge and skills to maintain these systems. Young adults are not being attracted into the industry and the training/apprenticeships required are just not available. The industry needs a shake up and you are right it needs to come from the top down. Unfortunately our government have not addressed this and i cant help but feel with the lack of big decisions regarding heat pumps, hydrogen we are sleepwalking into a big problem. Anyway thanks for your content. It is very informative and i tell all the youngsters i know in the industry to follow you and watch your videos👍🏼keep up the good work. 🙏🏻
Morning Andrew
Why not happy with the internal buffer unit?
On the system that I've already attended I found that the flow and the return on the primary side we're higher than the flow and return on the secondary side. This is like a plate heat exchanger rather than a buffer or a low loss header. I suspect that the buffer is not allowing good mixing and that the heat pump is just circulating it's own water through the buffer
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410
Thanks. Looking forward to your update video
what monoblock units Andrew ?
What do you mean ?
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 ashp units? what brand
I wouldn’t worry too much about the builder’s profit being reduced. They will pass on the expense to their customers. (Has happened to us)
The builders have already sold the houses they have occupants in them. The builders are really good and on the case and doing everything they can to get the systems rectified for the new owners
Thank you for that. Looks like their future customers will have to cover the costs of rectifying these heat pumps
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410Well some of the cost is being passed on to the customer as now they have to pay for joule heating in some of the rooms. Ideally this would only be required when outside temps dip below 5 degrees AND if the heat pump was undersized by design. Since this was poorly installed in the first place, I assume that the heat pump is actually oversized. For context, in Norway heatpumps are designed to cover only 80% of a property's heat loss (they're design temps are well below -5 degrees Celsius).
Great stuff
Thank you for your comment
Thank you for your comment
Step 1: Get rid of heat pump
That's it
Lol I've now modified a few of these and I'm getting very good results. I understand a lot of people have been frustrated by poor installations of heat pumps but really once they are sorted they can work very well
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 my biggest concern is reliability, longevity and availability of parts. So many companies are trying to get market share who knows who will still be around in 5 years and the end user is left holding the bag
This is good source material for a few videos. Presumably they gave you a copy of the full heating design specification issued by the prime?😉 Nothing more expensive as buying twice. It is a real shame and a completely wasted opportunity - nothing can be easier than putting in a full well designed heating system in a new build - especially when you can essentially rinse and repeat on the other units.
I think the biggest you hear was that there were two or three different contractors assembling different parts of the system.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 Oh dear.