This Heat Pump changes EVERYTHING | R290 Heat Pump
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2024
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In this video we talk about R290 air to water heat pumps and why these are a revolutionary technology. Currently as of the filming of this video (January 2024) there are not R290 heat pumps available for residential applications in the United States, however these heat pumps should be coming to the US market soon. This is partly due to pressure from refrigerant phaseouts as well as a desire for higher efficiency systems with better COP ratings that can also perform well in extremely cold climates. Watch this video for more information on how these revolutionary heat pumps are going to change everything!
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I've run a propane and isobutane mixture in my car a/c for decades. It runs at lower pressures than even r12 so its was great for old leaky/creaky r12 systems on their last leg. I got better mpg too. It was illegal to retrofit old r12 systems in the usa and probably still is. In the hvac forums i got a lot of guff with the old timer r12 techs saying that its a mobile barbecue that would instantly incinerate bus loads of children with my evil gas. I've moved to japan and have been researching it here. I found a Daikin webpage from 2022 talking about new r290 residential units air to air heat pump being available so this will be my first choice for my new house install
That’s impressive
Of course propane has always been known as a heat working fluid-but it’s Flammable! Now we’re told it’s safe indoors.
US is behind the curve as usual when it comes to home construction tech. I hope we can get r290 approved asap
In Australia ive been installing r290 monibloc hot water units for a few years now and i can say with confidence that they just work!
We even have r32 pool heating heat pumps that work well to heat pools
Right on that’s awesome, yeah I’m hoping they make there way here. I know we’re having r32 monobloc coming soon that will heat better than 410a but not quite as well as r290 so it’s exciting to see the tech advance
@@TheHVACDopeShowit's crazy that R290 is twice as performant as R-134a, then you realize that ammonia is over 3x as performant as R-290. But with the caveat of being flammable, toxic, smelly, and corrosive to any copper alloys.
Water would be 2x ammonia, but it has the pesky habit of freezing below 0 and needing a vacuum to boil at anywhere near room temp. But at least you don't need to worry about moisture in the lines..
Fed up with the local gas company in Missouri. Hurry Up R290!
what do you use the gas for?
This is amazing news.
Excellent
Propane was being used in the 1800s and early 1900s for AC systems. We are just now making a complete circle.
And R600 is butane. They’ll never be allowed in the US because they’re too cheap and DuPont has regulatory capture and the Feds will make you buy manufactured refrigerants.
I don’t disagree I’m hoping it’s not wishful thinking. They’re technically already being used in the USA in commercial applications like ice makers / coolers in low charges but we’ll see if they transition to residential monobloc applications
Get excited when r22 comes back
@@freekill123100 That isn not going to happen.
@@yolo_burritoButane will not work in cold climates as it condenses at around 30 degrees F. Propane condenses at -44 degrees F.
I'm a homeowner looking to replace my (knock on wood) working 50 y/o electric furnace and hwh. Think I should try to wait or are we a long way off? Will the R290s be competitively priced or have a luxury tag because they are new (in USA)? Thank you.
This is great. Can you tell us who regulates (restricts) R290 and R600 so we can reach out and tell them how we feel?
Probably the EPA and your manufacturers? I’m a little jaded so idk how much it would help lol but that’s a great suggestion… LG makes the therma v and that’s just one of the R290 products, so if more people from the USA start expressing interest it might be enough to bring it over sooner. I can’t find clear info on when they’ll be here.
Transportation of potentially hazards materials would be DOT, given the 500 grams reference.
@@craigfriday8601 I can tell you it’s not DOT as I’m in DOT compliance. DOT only regulates transportation. The 500g is a limitation on installation.
And yet you can buy it over the counter in cans means to put in your car! I don't know of any cars that would take over 500g since it's 3x more effective per gm than r12
What's your opinion on using hydronic for an AHU central air retrofit (Minnesota)? Would it also adequately satisfy cooling in the summer (hot and muggy)?
Like a monoblock heat pump tied to air handler? That’s fine but the current refrigerants don’t get the air handler quite as hot so they’re normally larger coils to make up for it. When R32 comes or some of the others the temp of the water will be able to get higher and maintain efficiency and then it would be a good option. R290 will change things for sure once it comes to the US
I live in HENDERSON, NEVADA. Wish your company serviced the Las Vegas valley! My old AC unit has had two parts replacements in two years at a total cost of over $700. MY NEXT UNIT WILL BE AN AIR-TO-AIR HEAT PUMP.
Maybe one day !
I wonder how the Propane refrigerant compares to the C02 refrigerant option used in the SANC0 units from Japan? Also, how does the propane function at -30 and lower. I hope the glycol lines moving from the inside to the outside and the heat from the compressor keep it the propane functional. Seems like propane at -20C or lower in both tanks and vehicles can be a struggle to maintain functioning pressure. I will be looking for the 290 options! Thanks from Canada
I’ve always wondering why the CO2 units from Japan don’t make their way here… Propane works well at low temps that’s one of the best selling points, I’m not sure if they’re available in Canada yet but they might make it there sooner than the USA!
I would prefer the SANCO2 units personally. No propane and a long and excellent record of performance. SANCO is available in the US from Small Planet Supply and some other vendors.
Sanco is outdated they give you only 50 percent from nominal capacity in cold climate
@@TheHVACDopeShow SanCO2 is here in the U.S., but it is a relatively recent thing. I actually have a SanCO2 heat-pump water heater. The CO2 loop is entirely internal to the outside unit. The tank inside has a short water loop that runs through the outside unit and returns to the tank hot. I really love it.
I think one of the reasons why CO2 hasn't taken off yet are the relatively high pressures the CO2 refrigerant loop has to run at. This requires a higher-quality build which can be a bit of a hard sell in a market where all the competitors are trying to be the lowest-cost (and lowest quality) offerings.
But it is something to love, really. The refrigerant loop is entirely contained within the outside unit. There are no external refrigerant lines, period. That also means the loop can be really compact, more efficient, and less prone to failure.
-Matt
the pressures that the c02 units run at is about 1000 psi? At those pressures i think you get way more blown out condensers and blown up compressors
Wonder if this is a good use for pool heaters. The current ones have a hard time getting water above the upper 90s so you need gas still if you have a spa attached
There are a lot of heat pumps like this for pools and spas so yes they should have something available for hotter temps too
i have an old r22 unit im holding together as long as i can waiting for r290 i really think it will change a lot of things. could you do a video on how the mono block would interface hydraulicly with multiple systems. like could it do a water heater and a furnace/AC on the same mono block?
Yes it could do that, it’s not out right now in the USA but eventually will talk about it as I’m able to offer them
I'm 100% sure I'll need to replace my AC in the next 2-5 years, so this is great news, can't wait.
Which brands use R290 where available, at what price range in north America.
None yet that I know of I’ve been following these recently and it seems like Samsung, LG, Viessman, and Daikin all have products in Europe. I read an article from Samsung recently that they’re expecting these monoblock systems to come to the USA in 2025~ or soon after due to all the regulations, phaseouts and push for heat pumps from legislation. This year and last year heat pump demand has grown a lot and therefore they’re become more economically incentivized to bring these products here.
Vaillant uses R290
Do you believe these upcoming monoblock systems will also be used to replace the furnaces from hydronic heating/hot water setups using air handlers? Currently have an old Buderus that heats up coils in the air handler to give us heat (2 zones/air handlers), as well as supplies our domestic hot water. Very efficient and happy with it, but the paired A/C units are 20 years old and inefficient. I'm hoping these monoblocks fit the bill for disconnecting the Buderus and old A/C compressors. Thoughts? And great vids
They’re kind of pricey atm and the r290 systems aren’t available here yet. Depends where the R32 Altherma comes in and if it’s cost effective, I’ve just seen some pricing from the Solstice seemed doable but the performance was only hot enough for radiant flooring temperatures (120F) to still maintain efficiency.
@@TheHVACDopeShow thank for the reply. I’m not ready for a monoblock switch-out yet, so I have a few more years for other manufacturers to get in there a drive prices down (hopefully some name brands too). Was mostly interested to know if the application fits. Sounds like it might. 👍
How will this handle cooling? Or is this going to be dedicated to heating only?
Same as a traditional split heat pump it’s just a hydronic air handler which means it’s circulating water instead of refrigerant. All the refrigerant is outside
I think my confusion is how would it handle both hot water and home cooling? I appreciate that it can do both but would there be a manifold that distributed the different temperature fluids. And if that's the case, would heating water also chill the cooling loop? Just sounds like an interesting concept.
@@wings2004 need an 'air to air' heat pump for both,,, the heat exchanger is installed inside the home for cooling and heating, above doors for example
Can this also be used in extreme heat like in 40°C to 48°C to cool down house.
Yes it can, ties into a hydronics air handler for heating and cooling
Keep in mind it's highly flammable, don't use near dry plants or wood
While accepting that good design is paramount, it is worth noting that, generally, the UK MCS tests show that R32 heat pumps have significantly better SCOPs than their R290 equivalents, because R32 is a more efficient coolant. You can see this most clearly by comparing like for like R32 vs R290 models, for example the Misubishi R32 6kW model (PUZ-WM60VAA) has SCOP of 4.81 at 35degC, compared to the Mitsubishi R290 6kW model (PUZ-WZ60VAA - a much newer model) which has a SCOP of 4.39 at 35degC. This is confirmed by Mitsubishi's own data sheets.
For heating? At 35C or 95F you must be talking about cooling? R32 doesn’t have the ability to get the temps as hot as R290, so for heating with traditional baseboards or needs to get hotter water / fluid temps R290 would still be better suited in heating no?
@@TheHVACDopeShow I'm only talking about heat pumps. 35degC is typical for Under Floor Heating, and even my radiator system operates between 35 and 45degC. R290 may be able to achieve higher temps but that greatly reduces efficiency
Where do I get one? The higher water temps mean this will work to tie into my system. Can anyone tell me the COP numbers?
Wish I knew, they’re only in Europe/other markets outside the US at the moment. I’ve called several vendors and haven’t found any available yet. COP numbers are very good, vary by unit but I’ll have an update as soon as one ships and we get our hands on one
For sure the COP will improve for lower water temperatures, even if 180F is possible. It would be interesting to model someone running their heat pump at up to 180F and compare the life time operating cost to replacing some radiators with modern models to lower the water temp and improve efficiency.
I am confused with the descriptions for the upcoming mono-bloc systems using propane as a replacement for other refrigerants. For example, the new mono-blocs are reported in this video to be absolutely fantastic for base board heatings..........AHhhhh now to get rid of my oil boiler!
OK so I have free heat (I have solar) in the winters and continue to sweat in the summers??? How will the mono-block provide air conditioning when needed? Base boards???
Joe Howarth
Air handler… it’s water pipes so it ties into your baseboard loop as a zone and into an air handler with ductwork for cooling. Still a ways out unfortunately in the USA, out in other parts already but not quite here
@@TheHVACDopeShow
Sure that should work! I need a heat pump system but am forced to use a registered, licensed installation company. Yes, there is Mr. Cool but it has limitations.
I spent 4 years in university classrooms to earn a BSEE degree. But bureaucrats require a license to purchase refrigerants, a license that requires 500 hours of classroom studies plus a minimum of 6,000 hours on the job experience to be able to take a test needed to use today's refrigerants. Wonder if those licensed guys are brain dead after finishing with all that crap!
We have a gas boiler with hot water radiators in our 100+ year old house in Salt Lake. I want to get off natural gas, so a heat pump looks like an attractive high efficiency option. Is it just national code that needs updating, or do local codes also have to be revised? In this case you're only talking about a one way heat pump cycle. Can a monobloc also provide chilled water for some sort of attic AC air handler for an old house retrofit?
A heat pump is just an air conditioner with a reversing valve so yes all heat pumps can cool 😁 This is no exception… this product is already out but only in R32 / 410a refrigerants so you don’t get quite as hot of temps which is why even the R32 versions wouldn’t work with radiators because they’re typically supposed to be at 180F and the R32 units really only heat to 150F. They can pair with a forced air hydronics air handler which can do AC and forced air heating, but it wouldn’t do much for the radiators because at 150F they’re putting out 30-50% of the heat they are at 180F (ballpark, I don’t remember the exact formula off the top of my head). Idk if we’ll see R290 (propane) anytime soon but maybe in the next few years
Living on the Oregon coast the only available energy source is electricity or gas. Propane tanks are not allowed in my community Is there an equivalent heat pump that runs on electricity?
No worries 😁 It actually doesn’t run on propane propane is the refrigerant. R290 is propane. It’s powered by electricity like every other heat pump so you’ll be able to use it when they’re available in the USA. Hoping soon but no word yet, maybe 2025
They make monoblock with R32 that will be out this year but it’s not here yet.
Hello,
Who regulated the charging capacity of the R290? Is it state or federal? Is there a petition to raise the limit so there heat pumps can become legal in the US?
Idk if there’s a petition but I think they’re working on it, there’s an incentive to bring these here now with all the rebates etc
I'm in UK 🇬🇧 R290 is available I wait to go Off-Grid then drive heatpump via Solar PV & Batteries storage
Good luck with that 😂
I’ve got 5kW PV
Triple glazed, external wall insulation 90mm 24kw Pylontec battery’s. No one on earth you’ll get self sufficient. Oh just had an ecodan 6kw
Open up in the Salt Lake metro next!!
Thanks! It’s in the plan 😁 Salt lake is a great market and similar climate to Denver as well. Will keep you posted!
@@TheHVACDopeShow are they franchises?
But why did this come to market so late?
It’s actually been around in Europe / other regions for a while. We’re limited by regulations and the fact that economically until recently natural gas has been cheaper to heat with in a lot of areas but it’s getting close enough with higher efficiencies that demand is increasing domestically so over the next 10 years you’ll see these types of products and other products gaining popularity in the US as well
Any real breakthrough for air to air??? I'm looking for the next big thing in mini splits here in the US...
The same refrigerant could be used in a inverter for AC and heat. The big benefit is that it’s the same system and only requires the heat pump to run forward or backwards depending on what you need. Yes, I oversimplified this a bit.
Air to water products are out now but if you don’t have a need for air to water for radiant floors for example then you’re probably fine sticking with just a higher efficiency mini split. Biggest developments are just improvements in efficiency.
what about R290 with Bi-block?
if there is a leak it might explode inside your house...
What they said ⬆️ definitely don’t want a high pressure propane leak. Normal propane pressures in your home are around 10” water column (.36 psi)… in a refrigerant circuits the pressures of the propane is over 300x that so a leak will spray a lot more propane
We should've used propane the whole time
Propane and propane accessories 😂
@@missdee212 he was right lol
Propane is the most efficient and most environmentally friendly refrigerant ever used. The only reason it's not widely used in the USA is that the chemical companies themselves lobby the government to make it illegal so that they can sell other refrigerants at much higher cost.
That’s probably a fair assessment… what makes sense doesn’t make dollars
When do you think this heat pump will be available in the US market, and what company is going to carry this heat pump?
I think this is a refrigerant that the people will want but unless the regulator gods allow to be purchased and used in the US residential market, the issue is dead before it gets off the ground. Besides, do you think that the Dupont lobbyist are not working hard to squelch this from coming to the states 😞how big of a hit to there profits if everyone in the residential market switch to cheap "Propane"
my question is how well does it work in the south where the majority of the time we need cooling instead of heating and how would that work if you wanted to using it for your water heater and at the same time need it for cooling your house ?
LG Samsung Viessman all make these already, the problem is design and charge limits because of flammability… but I’m hopeful this might make it here this year or next? I’ve called several distributors trying to find one and they’re not available yet, but likely soon.
Yes R32 will probably be one of the main next gen refrigerants but for mono bloc applications (meaning there’s no refrigerant lines running inside) R290 is a great refrigerant for the application. For cooling not as big of a deal but it’s still very efficient in cooling.
Yeah good thing we only have a max of 500 grams of propane... versus the steady supply line of nat gas or propane which is currently used in furnaces. 😒
I was planning to replace my two 30 y/o systems this year and I’d love to be able to go this route, but I was shooting for May/June timeframe.
I have to add another comment that do not want it mixed with my last. I signed a contract for Mitsubishi heat pumps ( H2i MXZ***) along with their ceiling cassettes installation for my home. It is my understanding that the refrigerant used is R290 (propane)! Is the Mitsubishi air to air literature incorrect OR do these systems currently use R290? There certainly is nothing special that I can see about what they offer other than they of course are air to air hyper heat units with R290, a propane variation refrigerant.
R290 is only used in monobloc applications to my understanding since it’s highly flammable. I don’t think that’s the case for a cassette system is this in Europe of the US?
@@TheHVACDopeShow
This is in the States---
Gees... suggest doing a Google. My thought is the entire compressor industry will soon only offer propane variations for refrigerants.
Also from PV Magizine ''Mitsubishi unveils propane heat pump for residential. ''
Heck I firmly believe the risk for flammable refrigerants is negligable. How many gas stoves, furnaces & boilers do we have without troubles. IMHO, we have tooooooo much Big Brother regulations!
How does it work in very cold climates and producing real heat?
Excellent
Yes it keeps up extremely well, and with high efficiency ratings. A lot of them can keep up to 20F and lower while maintaining decent capacity and efficiency
Dude: Your videos are a bunch of advice the average homeowners can't understand. It's like you're teaching a class at a Tech school.
We get the opposite feedback pretty regularly but thanks for your opinion! Will see what we can do to maintain our current style and also break down things in layman’s terms
Funny, I find his videos surprisingly easy to understand.
I am building a R290 heat pump with a compatible Unused R22 compressor
That’s AWESOME 🙌
Legally, one could charge systems with up to 500g of R600, which is at least 2x as effective per gram than R-134a, R12, R22.. so unless the system takes a kilo of the stuff.. it's up to you to charge and take the risk.
WHAT ARE U TALKING ABOUT CLOWN
R290 IS USED AS A COOLENT IN AIR CONDITIONING
so monoblock works with radiaters not duct system. oh well. thx
It works with a ducted system as well, or radiant floors or a variety of apps… higher water temps at higher efficiency is the main point. For example your btu output on an air handler at 120F vs 180F is almost triple at the higher water temp
Monoblock systems can feed chilled or heated water to a variety of hydronic applications, not limited to radiant floors and radiators. It can also supply chilled or heated water to fan/coil units, like low wall console units, high wall units that look like mini-splits, and traditional air handlers that can replace your current refrigerant-based air handler. It's a super flexible approach to HVAC.
All fun and games until the evaporator blows the charge in the house. Make refrigerant great again.
Monobloc means everything is contained outside there’s no propane refrigerant in the house. You just have hydronic lines (water / glycol) running inside
@@TheHVACDopeShow safer but Still a fire hazard if that compressor shorts to ground outside.
@@AmericanFarmerHVAC2024 Why are you ignoring the fact that millions of homes/businesses burn several trillion cubic feet of natural gas annually? Seems a bit odd to worry about a pound of propane. Better switch over to the Tesla grill and ditch the 20lb propane tank too.
@@centauri8820 Idiotic response. Do you know how many millions of leaking evaporators in homes/businesses I've repaired or replaced? Brand new ones leak right out of the box. Where are they installed? In the home. Refrigerant floats through the ductwork. Black iron pipe or copper doesn't start leaking gas, once it's sealed and locked down, you're done. Thin copper or aluminum coils that aren't even sealed properly from the factory more times than not, you're comfortable with a gas as a refrigerant flowing through that? Un-real. We're talking about air conditioning, not a heat source.
You said it could heat hot water?
Lol
Perhaps mitigate the explosion hazard by inserting 3x stinky compounds into the propane , IF it leaks = get outside.
Monoblock is all outside contained in the unit, that’s done for safety so high pressure LP lines aren’t running inside your home 😁
I want to get a mini-split heat pump but with R410 heat pumps no longer being sold in 2025 and R290 monobloc heat pumps coming on the market I don't want to spend money on obsolete technology. It feels like buying a new computer that is outdated when it's only a few years old. I am interested in how successful R290 heat pumps will be in Europe.
R290 is successful in Europe it’s been in use for decades technically in varying applications and is also used in USA but limited in use (small charges in ice machines / freezers etc.). R290 will come to the USA for monobloc but probably not as a mainstream refrigerant IMO. R32 /and 454B are the new A2L refrigerants they’re pushing in the USA but those are still blended refrigerants, and are being chosen because flammability index is lower than 290 and some the others like R600 / Isobutane which are all highly flammable as a downside. But monobloc contains all this outside and just results in apex coming to the US. R290 won’t be in a mini split / ductless system ever so you’re probably safe to pull the trigger there or could wait for one of the others if you’re not in a hurry.
@@TheHVACDopeShow So if I buy a R410a mini-split and it runs low of refrigerant after Jan. 2025 it can be refilled with R454b? Can I buy a mini-split filled with R454b now?
@@tom95521 From what I've heard I think R32 is going to be more common in mini-splits. R410a and R454b are both blends primarily consisting of R32 so a bit more R32 isn't going to hurt it. But also R410a will continue to be available for years to come.
From what I read, the old refrigerants will still be available. Just trying to reduce their use by moving new systems to the new refrigerants. I think even the original freon can still be purchased.
What I did hear is that because they are "new", these new R290-based systems might be 30% more than equivalent current systems. Will that be true? Are they that much more efficient (to have a positive ROI)? Not sure...
They won't be that much better, if they're phasing it out it's your change to get remaining stock of them on sale cheap before the new year.
Why are people raving about R290? It's not new at all! I think that the monoblock-R290 combination is new?
It’s not new but finally being used again, it’s new in the USA isn’t even out here yet. Hoping we get these types of products soon.
Soooooo....NOT AVAILABLE IN THE U.S. Great......5-10yrs from now....maybe. Can't wait. No, really I'm getting ready to build and can't wait. *sigh*
I feel ya! Air to water products are available in the US just currently with 410a, and r32 (before year end)
@@TheHVACDopeShow Maybe one could just buy a Propane Unit from Europe On Line then and Import / ship same over to North America for a single home Domestic use.
Propane is made from fossil fuels, so how will this be affected when there is no more drilling for fossil fuels?
If there is ZERO drilling, we won't have oil for lubrication. The amount of propane used for these is extremely small. Note the European limit is 500 gm/loop. About 18 ounces. The propane tank uses for an outdoor barbecue holds 20 lbs. Enough for 17 systems that will not need recharging for several years. We'll be fine
What @ronmorrell9809 said lol… it’s closed loop so it’s not burning the propane. It’s just using it as a refrigerant for heat transfer. Like a lot of fridges use butane or flammable refrigerants but it’s a small loop and doesn’t consume or burn it. We’ll never stop drilling for fossil fuels, there just eventually going to use them more sparingly and not daily in cars etc like we do now.
Oh no.. how you would have propone or any flammable gas inside your house?
That is what 90% of houses around the world have anyway.
So I do not see even the point to have this "monoblock" design which increase the cost due the plate heat exchanger
Difference is if you have a leak in your coil propane is heavier than air and would settle in the confined area of your ductwork/ blower wheel and all the electronics so when the motor kicks off it could explode if you had a leak develop later. Monobloc eliminates this issue. Other propane lines going into your home don’t pose this same risk as much because they wouldn’t be leaking directly on top of electronics that could ignite the fuel. It also allows for water heating
@@TheHVACDopeShow Why it would ignite even if the motor start?
They do not spark, at least not this kind of motors.
Also, the amount of refrigerant that a normal close circuit needs is not enough to cause much damage. Also propane can not produce short circuits because is an insulator (liquid or gas).
If someone take so serious this incredible remote possibility, then why boilers, furnaces, kitchen hobs, or several other home appliances that can cause fires or short circuits are allowed?
There is no point, safety regulations some times reach absurd levels.
For example why ammonia was ban for consumers? The risk for poisoning is almost zero.
About allowing for water heating, that is an actually plus in which I give you the reason.
But if you ask me, I would prefer to have all those needs in the same appliance without the need to have heat exchangers and water pipes over all your house, using the same refrigerant as working fluid.
For example, a single heat pump could power a refrigerator, hot water, Hvac, energy thermal storage and so on.
Like the tesla heat pump who can move heat from 16 different points or hardware.
not new
In the US they will be