Pathfinder (2e): Basics of Identifying Monsters
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- The basics of identifying monsters in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.
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00:00 Introduction
00:27 Recall Knowledge
04:15 Knowledge Skills
07:20 DCs
08:12 Additional Knowledge
10:27 House Rules
8:38 TL;DR (Summary)
13:33 Close
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*MINOR CORRECTION!!* _All Recall Knowledge checks should be made in secret by the GM!_ This is, in fact, a rule by RAW and not a House Rule as stated in the video. Thanks to Extrameasaurus for the clarification!
I was about to mention that. Good catch!
Was actually going to come here to say this. It's actually an "optional rule" to let players roll checks that are normally marked as secret. The standard is for the DM to roll any secret checks.
I feel like the Recall Knowledge action for a unique creature has to almost be broken down into three separate DC's. First, determine what level of a task it is to identify that creature on sight by appearance or reputation. Then determine the level of the task to know the basics about that creature. Lastly, determine the DC it takes to know secret information about that creature.
To use an example from Wrath of the Righteous, the city of Kenabres starts the campaign defended by a legendary silver dragon named Terendelev. Every citizen in Kenabres should immediately be able to recognize her. Thus, it should be an approximately level -1 check for anyone in Kenabres to look up and go, "Oh, hey. Terendelev, the Silver Dragon who fought the Storm King. Awe-inspiring!" Someone failing this check should actually confuse the citizens of the city: "Wait, you don't know about the silver dragon?"
Knowing the base powers Terendelev possesses should be set as standard for a Silver Dragon of her level.
Knowing Terendelev's secrets - the things she doesn't make public - should use the DC for a Unique Silver Dragon. So if the GM has changed her to have unique talents and secrets compared to a normal Silver Dragon, then that should be at the much higher DC. Consider, for example, that at some point, the PC's may desire to go after her hoard.
The house rule about GMs rolling in secret shouldn't be under house rules because the Recall Knowledge various skill action has both the concentrate and secret traits RAW.
GAH! Thanks for pointing that out. I'll pin a comment clarifying that and will flag it for a correction in a future update.
@@HowItsPlayed no problem my guy, you do good work making these as they are always super helpful! Keep it up!
@SpinazFou oh, nothing honestly. I just put both because they are the only two traits it has. Sorry
@SpinazFou oh, nothing honestly. I just put both because they are the only two traits it has. Sorry
@SpinazFou I'd let them ask. It's more effort for you to pre roll a knowledge check ahead of time for something they might not even ask for, and simply taking the initiative as the DM to tell them what their character knows without asking sort of defeats the need to spend an action to do it and also might take away some player agency.
Some more important house-rules:
1- Characters of a particular type/race/sub-race/whatever can automatically know all information about their own species. Goblin characters do not need to make Society checks to know Goblins are small, have Darkvision, high Dexterities, and so on...
2- Once you know something important about a creature, you do not need to check again the next time you encounter it to know that information; once you've figured out that bludgeoning damage works much better on Skeletons, you do not need to role again to know that the next time you encounter a skeleton (whether it is an hour or a week later).
On the note of house rules I always allow my characters one free check when spotting a creature for the first time. I do this in Pathfinder 1e and D&D 3.5/5e as well. It seems kind of ridiculous that you need to sit there undefended with your thumb and index on your chin for 6 seconds to know "Hey, I know what this is! This is a Kobold. They're common pests around where I live. They're sneaky buggers and tend to use hit and run tactics and ambushes."
I like this! In fact, I'm going to take it for a test drive in this week's session. Thanks for sharing!
You've given your players access to fairly common knowledge probably "easy" or "very easy" for their location/situation. That's cool and pretty reasonable. However, when you get away from "common pests" and into everything else, that is a pretty big assist. Not only is the 3 action economy designed to accommodate actions like recall knowledge (and cast a 2 action spell, or move and attack), but you've also given all of your players a 2nd level feat (automatic knowledge) and a bonus feat/ignored it's pre-requisites.
Is that really what you meant to do? Normally it wouldn't come online until level 3 (2 for rogue) as the expectation is only folks who put in some effort and go beyond basic training have that much general knowledge about relevant critters off the top of their head.
It's an interesting idea, don't get me wrong. If everyone enjoys it and it doesn't negatively affect your games, then great. :-)
As always, you cover the topic in a comprehensive way but as quickly as possible. The examples are summary are key for me. Great work!
GMs who use the option to allow players to ask a question on a successful check: Do you allow broad questions, such as "What are this creature's weaknesses?" or only specific questions like, "Is this creature weak against positive damage?"
If it were me, I would revel more information with a more specific question. A broad question like "what are it's weaknesses" would get one weakness revel, two on a crit success, and just a flat "it has no weaknesses" if applicable for that creature.
A more specific question like "is it weak to X type of damage" I would interpret less like they're asking if it's a weakness, and more like they're asking where that damage type falls in the weak/resist/immune range. For example, if they ask "Is it weak to fire" on a success I would say "No, it's resistant to fire" and on a crit I'd add "but it is weak to electric." It's not what they're asking, but it's the information they're seeking.
Just how I'd do it. Hope that helps.
@@squidrecluse2336 I like that way, yeah. Think that's how I'll do it too. So yes, a great help, thanks.
I allow broad questions, the most common questions are immunities, weaknesses, special attacks, reactions, etc. I allow one question for success and two for crit. It may seem like too much info, but I only allow one check per player and it can be very frustrating for them to ask “what weaknesses?” And all they get in return is “none”.
I usually allow one broad mechanical question and give away the Creature name + type for free.
For example if they want to know what their weakest Save is, i tell them which one, but no specific numbers, same goes for resistances or weaknesses.
On a critical success, i give a bit of helpful trivia information on top of the question.
On a critical fail, i'll give a wrong answer to the question, and give a misleading piece of trivia information, to make it look like a critical success. (usually i'll answer the questions but give information from the wrong monster. For example my players recall knowledge on a troll, but critically fail, i now handle it like a critical success, but i use information from a different statblock, so the players may identify the troll as a ogre or something like that.
I think you handled that tricky topic as well as it can be. I use (well, already planned to use) all three of those house rules because it's closer to what I'm used to coming from PF1.
I've found that my players (especially those who find making decisions difficult or whom are new to RPGs) tend to have historically needed additional options for knowing what to DO with given information, whether it be about a situation, environment, or creature. I therefore have created (homebrewed) a new action as detailed below. I'd be interested in getting community feedback.
Assess the Situation
Sometimes in hearing a description of a scene and scenario, a player is left wandering what their character notices the most or struggles to cognicize what is most important or what a certain description might mean.
Assess the situation gives the Character a chance to really get a sense of the situation or scene, and allows the Player to understand what is most important in the eyes of their character, so they can decide on a course of action when choice paralysis hits or they miss subtle clues.
You can spend actions to learn an AMOUNT of clues or delve deeper (DEPTH) into whats beyond the surface details of the situation as presented. Any combination of Amount and/or depth of information can be sought in any order the player wishes, spending actions as presented below. You can continue to Assess the situation across multiple rounds, learning more or deeper information.
The information presented by the GM should be clear and concise and should NOT reveal details that the Character hasn't noticed yet through Seek actions, Read aura, Detect Magic, Sense Motive, or other means.
Instead, it should highlight to the player what information might be Missing, what their character might be Wondering, what they might think based on what they Already know, and give opportunities for the player to roleplay the character more and have a better and clearer understanding of the situation and an idea of what the character might be able to do.
Amount
1 Action
A single piece of information in the scene that the character notices and is applicable to what they might react to or do
2 Actions
Two pieces of information in the scene that the character notices and is applicable to what they might react to or do
3 Actions
Three pieces of information in the scene that the character notices and is applicable to what they might react to or do
Depth
1 Action
A refresher of the Surface Details the character notices in the situation, stated clearly and in a way the player understands.
2 Actions
A vague idea or ideas of what might be beneath the surface, informed by the situation, and how the character may interpret it.
3 Actions
Join multiple clues together to develop a clear understanding of what may be happening beneath the surface informed by the situation, and how the character may interpret it.
Very interesting ... I haven't played many games of PF2e yet but have yars of RP and I think you're on to something very important.
I can't tell you how much frustration I've had as a DM and player where something that is supposedly 'obvious' is missed in by players and DM.
Very interesting indeed
Im not using this version of the idea anymore and removed it entirely from action economy from my own games. Ive instead tried to employ the ideas and thinking in how I GM naturally. I think codifying them helped me a lot. I think Im better for it. I still have a lot to learn and I appreciate you replying so long after the post and video aired. If it gave you anything whatsoever, thats valuable.
@@713zep
... thanks for your reply ...
So much of the game does come down to communication doesn't it!
@@timotheose sure does :)
One of my favorite skill uses!
This is great and very comprehensive! Thank you so much.
You're very welcome!
I don't read Additional Knowledge as being disallowed from making further Recall Knowledge checks after a failure. It merely states that further attempts are fruitless, not that they are forbidden. You can use your action on it but you won't gain any info from succeeding. This is relevant for Investigators with the Known Weaknesses class feat where it's part of their Stratagem and a critical success on Recall Knowledge grants them and potentially their allies a bonus on their next attack roll. With all possible information arrayed Investigators still rack their brains for that Eureka! moment to turn the tide of battle.
Man table 10-5 is the answer to the question I was asking for so long as to how to set these difficulty checks lol
about the last house rule
our table uses it, as via foundry, you usual can read what type of monster it is
one thing is just... except for saves, armor class and Immunity, Ressistance and Weakness idk really a special thing to know directly as most other stuff you will see or feel thought combat
i was just wondering about this earlier today
As said before recall knowledge is a secret check by RAW. The nice thing about that is that you don't get into the weird situation of the player needing to know what check it is before having to roll it. Because otherwise he would have to guess or the GM needs to spoil it. Neither is very fun. Though this does require the GM to know the modifiers, which you can handle in different ways. One being to ask for his/her sheet (though this probably gives away that a secret check is being rolled), so keeping notes on what all their relevant skill modifiers are might be handy. And if you want to go even further and not let them know you are rolling dice, then that (plus keeping track of the modifiers) is all done in an app I made because I wanted to do all those things: play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nl.rekijan.pathfindersecretroller.free
Nice -- thanks for sharing your app! I don't have an android device to use it, but I do use Fantasy Grounds to manage everyone's skill bonuses and roll for them in the way you mention.
@@HowItsPlayed Yeah if you are already using a program as Fantasy Grounds it is a bit overkill.
Awesome video. My friends and I want to start playing and they appointed me to be GM.
Good luck!
What if we used the DC Adjustment's Chart to Determine exactly WHAT we learn about the monsters? Just an idea pitch and I literally typed this up within the last hour and I'm slightly tipsy and tired, so it may need a lot of tweaking.
Anyway, for example. Let's say you want to learn about a Bodak, Creature level 8.
The Core DC would be 24, according to the DCS BY LEVEL chart.
But we could take it a step further and use the DC Adjustments chart to determine exactly WHAT you get.
*Incredibly Easy (-10 DC): Erroneous Information*.
*Very Easy (-5 DC): Creature Type (if obvious)*, Example: You see a shambling corpse with meat hanging off of it. You can't quite tell if it's a zombie or a skeleton, but you can guess it's undead.
*Easy (-2 DC): Creature Name and Type (if not obvious)*, You can accurately identify what type of creature it is.
*Normal: Most Famous Aspects About Creature, Perception Types, Commonly Known Locations (if applicable), If it has Been Known To Speak.* Basically anything a studied person might know without specifically fighting or researching said creature.
*Hard: (+2 DC): Offensive Abilities* This is all of the offensive abilities as known by the intellectual community.
*Very Hard: (+5): Defensive Abilities* This is all of the defensive abilities as known by the intellectual community.
*Incredibly Hard (+10): Deep Lore* This is the creature's Ecology, Society, Organization, Detailed Creation Myths, and anything a scholar or fanatic may know about the specific creature and species.
*Nearly Impossible (+15): Nothing Extra unless adjusted.
*
*Impossible (+20): Nothing Extra unless adjusted.
*
We could take this another step further and adjust the chart for people who have taken a specific Lore skill pertaining to the monster. EXAMPLE: The Very Easy entry is now Incredibly Easy (-10), Normal is Easy, Incredibly Hard is only Very Hard, Ect.
Likewise, a monster's rarity could shift the list downward by one, two, or three slots for Uncommon, Rare, and Unique creature's respectively.
And lastly a Natural 20 grants the next rank down on the list, while a Nat 1 pushes the result one up on the chart.
Anyway, something to pass around, maybe it's dumb, may give it a shot for a few sessions and see how it gels.
Recall Knowledge is my favourite and least favourite rule. I love the idea of PCs identifying and recalling knowledge about a creature to aid in combat. I hate that it is such a subjective and vague rule. I’m still quite a new GM for pathfinder and I find the subjective nature of the rule very difficult to adjudicate.
Question, does anyone know if by RAW crit failing a recall knowledge check counts like a failure that we cannot gain anymore information or if we can keep trying to get more information even though we failed but technically don't know we did.
If you are keeping all rolls secret they never know they fail - you just stop giving information "You learn nothing new" no matter their roll.
Can anyone tell me the names of the mobs he has in this vid pls?? tried a google image search with no luck :( if you can - thx!
Thank you for the video.
How do these rolls work as a party of players?
If PC1 gets a success and the name and piece of information, what should PC2 rolling on their turn receive? My instinct would be to ask them to roll against the harder, second (+2) DC and give them the next piece of information if they succeeded. Giving them the name again wouldn't seem fun.
And then to a fail, my instinct would be that if PC1 failed, PC2 could still give it a go? They wouldn't fail as a party, even though they do succeed as a party.
There are no rules by RAW, so it's entirely up to the GM to decide, but I think you're on the right track (assuming that PC1 shares what they know with the rest of the party). And I definitely would not prevent other players from attempting checks just because one player failed a roll.
So i was wondering what kind of creature identification skills should i use in your example for the troll? In the table there is no troll or giant trait
Good catch! The Giant trait says they are humanoids, so you would use Society.
Was wondering the same. Thanks.
The only thing i never really know how to handle is.. how do the players decide which skill to use for the identification? Do i reveal which Skill it is? Do i just pick the correct skill for them? do they have to guess and what happens if they pick the wrong skill? I don't seem to be able to find any answer to this problem. I feel like in some cases revealing which skills can be used, almost already gives away a bit of information on the creature type. (i.e. telling my player to make either a arcana or crafting check, will pretty much always instantly give away that the enemy is a construct and all the properties that come with it, regardless of the result of their check). The same goes of course for Lore Skills, which is potentially an even bigger problem. If i ask for a Undead Lore Check and they critically fail the check, they will of course immediately know that it is an undead despite technically not having a clue. On the other hand it would be unfair to not give away the correct skills, because without this information, the players cannot make an informed decision wether it is worth to burn an action on it or not. I find this to be a difficult matter.
Since it's a secret check, I keep a cheat sheet with each player's skill bonuses and when they ask for a recall knowledge check, I just check the sheet and roll it for them.
I think that PF2 does a great job in creating good and fair mechanics for everything to the point that house rules are essentially unnecessary. Either the rule/system is good or they have a good alternative. Identifying monsters is the one exception for me.
It feels like such a waste of time RAW most of the time. Maybe because I play a martial character and it feels like it is better to just experiment with that action what I want to know. Best case, I succeed and got what I wanted to do in the first place, worst case I fail and got the information I wanted anyway.
Maybe it is better for casters? The casters in my table don't do it too much, but perhaps they should?
Should there be a different tag for creatures that are unique but notorious? The first thing that comes to mind is legendary from MTG creatures, but that has it's own issues. Perhaps "famous" would do. It communicates that the creature is unique, but a lot of people know them. I think that for the example in the video that would have worked well.
This video misses what is imo the most important subject: Does the player have to guess the correct skill, or does the DM tell them what skill is being used?
I'm not 100% certain if there is a "RAW" answer, but I do not require the player to guess the correct skill. As a secret check, they just tell me they want to identify the monster, I look at my copy of their character sheet (I use Fantasy Grounds even at in-person games so I have all of that in front of me) and then I roll the appropriate skill without telling them which skill was rolled.
If I didn't have access to their sheet, I would tell them what skill is going to be rolled and have them give me the bonus... and then roll it in secret behind the screen.
May I ask what is that creature image appearing at 8:14ff?
That's Lissala, Goddes of Runes. Although not exactly a "monster", I thought it was a good example of when a player would need to make a roll to figure out what the heck they were looking at. :)
@@HowItsPlayed Thank you! It was indeed.
Can you use recall knowledge on a dead creation in Exploration mode?
sure why not
Doing so may actually be beneficial to your group. As a DM if I know my players are coming into an area with a dangerous creature they have never encountered before, a situation I may use is to leave a suspicious dead body of a creature and if they try to figure out what it is and what happened to it, give them clues as to the type of creatures that may be lying in wait.
My GMs always ask our players what we want to know when we succeed to identify creatures
I think that this is the way to do it. When you are in combat you are not necessarily trying to remember what the name of the thing you are trying to attack is, but rather how to fight it. If that is what you are trying to identify, then perhaps the skill you use to try to either remember or deduce that information based on what you know about other creatures, might be a different skill than what you would use to know their name.
14:11 This is something that is lesser-known and should have been highlighted earlier in the video as that rule is mentioned in the "additional knowledge" section in the book.
I have found nothing about when the name of a creature is to be revealed. I have read every feat mentioning Recall Knowledge / Identify Creature, in a hope to reverse engineer the RAW rules. I like what you said, they learn the name on a success, but can find no text to support that. I think it is good, since the players know so much more than the characters. Each action is 2 seconds, and if you think of the time a fight lasts, it is quick. If a character does not spend 2 seconds to think... shoot or not / friend or foe, then they probably are just swinging, to ask questions later. The challenge then comes as to what creatures are common knowledge? and would not take 2 seconds to see that the undead creature is a skeleton. My main question I hope to gain insight from everyone: When do you reveal the name of a creature, and your reasoning?
True, by RAW you wouldn't reveal the name of the creature until that's the next most commonly known piece of information. But in my experience, the players often know the name of the creature and what they're wanting to learn is something more valuable in a combat situation... and may feel like the action was wasted if all I tell them is the name. But, yes, that may be a little bit in house rule territory (or RAI opposed to RAW).
As for my reasoning, wherever the character learned about the creature (books, stories, etc), they all likely include a name (or local nickname) for the creature. So if you know anything at all, it'll be that.
Why were there literally 5x the ads in this video?
Oof! Because RUclips used its auto feature to place adverts... resulting in 4 breaks within a 16 minute video. My apologies -- it should be corrected now.
@@HowItsPlayed thx hehe. I was mostly joking, but I appreciate you addressing it. I love your work! Thanks for all of your professionalism.
@@SparrowhawkTheKind No, I appreciate it. Advertising spam causes people to unsub, and that's the last thing I want! RUclips is just crazy aggressive sometimes when you let them automatically manage the ads.
this has nothing to do with the vid, just wanted to comment on a more recent video....
I need help with pack animal rules. what IS a pack animal? where are the rules on them? its under horse but are all pack animals horses? there are no stats or rules on them, but you can buy and rent them
I think 'pack animal' refers generally speaking to the real world classification of animals used to carry heavy loads, such as donkeys, mules, oxen, camels in deserts, llamas in central America, and horses. There likely needs no mechanics for pack animals at the time since they are unlikely to need combat statistics or any other mechanics to carry loads beyond what can be ad hoc'd on the spot, say if such a beast of burden is slain by a predator, or possibly some idea what their carrying limit might be if say your players want to carry a 1,000-lb marble statue out of a dungeon.
@@SibeliusEosOwm we did come up with something on spot but I've always been a fan of having set rules that I don't have to make up so none of the players feel like I'm giving them less than what makes sense. I may just make them use the statistics of a horse and make it a non combatant that'll run from danger.
@@tabunga4669 That sounds like a great idea. You could use the "young" adjustment for things significant smaller like a pony/donkey or sled dog.
Getting "trolls regenerate, and it's stopped by fire" would really feel like you've gotten shafted. Almost literally everybody knows that OOC, to the point that maybe literally everybody should know it IC. It's like being told that dragons breathe fire (though I guess that's a poor example, because not all dragons breathe fire in these D&D-likes)
Okay, so these checks are supposed to be blind, right? But doesn't simply telling a player which skill to use give them a pretty big hint about what they're dealing with? If they are conversing with an elegant humanoid and I ask the for a religion check instead of a society check, isn't that letting them know something is very much amiss with their suave new acquaintance?
That's true. When I GM I keep a record of each player's skill bonuses on a paper clipped to the inside of the GM screen and update it after the party levels up. I know others who use a digital tool or spreadsheet to do the same thing.
I know this video is well over a year old but I am just now getting through your backlog... Looking at the first and second printing of the core rules, the GMG, the Errata, Archives of Nethys back log, and the pathfinder playtest materials... and I can find NO WHERE any version of PF2e "Success: Provides the most commonly known, but so far unrevealed piece of information" I think this should have been in house rules.
Creature identification, Core Rulebook pg 506
"A character who successfully identifies a creature learns one of its best-known attributes-such as a troll’s regeneration (and the fact that it can be stopped by acid or fire) or a manticore’s tail spikes. On a critical success, the character also learns something subtler, like a demon’s weakness or the trigger for one of the creature’s reactions."
"Basics" -16 minutes long. Ooo pathfinder