Behavior Really Does Not Understand Player Skill | Q&A - Dead by Daylight
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- The sad part is even if they did figure it out, it still wouldn't work in an asymmetrical game with a player imbalanced like DBD. MMR was destined to always fail and we've been saying it for years.
/ scottjund
/ discord 
Игры
Claudette escapes a game without being hooked. She didnt complete a gen, nor did she save anyone. She effectively killed her team. She is now higher mmr than her more skilled teammates. Nice system.
that sounds more like meg.....jussayin...
The bubba that facecamped the first survivor he downed and every other from then on is better than the guy that got 8 hooks and they all escaped
Edit: made this comment before watching the video didnt realize scott said the same thing as me
Yeaaah supa nice system.
The real fun part is that at the top is now what BHVR wanted to avoid - one or two good killers, except it went from a Spirit who has to play the game but lacks good counterplay, to campy Bubba, and they only face teams who escape from co-op teamwork, or stupid Blendies who never learned to loop or actually fight a good Killer. And now all the good Survs get to face even more Campers, and all the good Killers get to face even more useless Survivors.
And at the bottom facing new players are all the good fair players who get to suffer seeing babies in every game. And then these new players get upset and cry about how hard the game is. In fact, some of the best games would be at mid or low SBMMR. Where the people who loop for years get put because the Altruist for the team, and where the super tactical but non-tunnel/camp 8/12 hook Killers go because their opponents were just slightly more coordinated to pull out an escape.
@@TheNemesis442 claudette, after getting unhooked, procedes to run the killer for about 2.5 seconds and goes down. Meg waits around the corner with a flashlight and goes down in 3 seconds after Claudette. Leon (me) running WGLF, Windows of Oppertunity, Blood Pact and BT trying to think of how to save this team while Feng procedes to absolutely crush gens like a frat boy crushing cans on spring break is how this game normally goes.
"If you didnt win, was it really a skillful play?" Yes. Yes it can totally be possible to die, or not kill someone, and still have played skillfully. What the fuck
That's called being outplayed.
@@ebaynetflix and that's not something you can do without a little skill
@@Danaile1 ??? It is absolutely possible to be outplayed without any skill at all. Brand new players are bound to be out skilled. You don't deserve pity points for being worse than your opponents.
@Chiii Ling This is not true. The old pip system was incredibly busted and some killers had to actively play worse to pip up such as Plague. The pip system was far worse.
"I think we did a pretty good job"
I love how the twitch chat is 95% people making fun of them and saying theyre wrong. Good to see this is one of the few things that the DbD community agrees on.
Considering a lot of this community wants longer gen speeds, even though one can stack 4 slow down perks on top of each other (as well as a mangled add-on on a LOT of killers), this community isn't worth listening to a lot of times, especially when map size variability is the issue.
@@JakeobE DBD forums in particular has some of the worst balancing ideas regarding COH, they want self-heal straight up removed to "balance" it, which is exactly what will make the perk useless and never be run again.
The devs are stupid but the community, consistently, focuses on extremes and M1 Killers being able to counter every single thing Survivors can do with ease. Patterns regarding balancing complaints like Lucky Break rework amongst other fears, have demonstrated this consistently.
@@The_B_Button I agree for the most part, but I don't think removing the self-heal will make the perk "useless" like you say. A big reason why CoH is so strong is the insane healing speed, allowing 3 injured survivors to reset in 12 seconds. Now, removing self-heal will make the perk more "situational" in a sense, in that you need a teammate now, but it will still be extremely broken if you just have a teammate with you.
@@JakeobE Not everybody has everything unlocked. Especially with the influx of new players from Epic the first few hundred hour is a rough experience as a killer. Who are the free killers? Trapper, Wraith, Huntress, Hillbilly and Nurse. Neither of them has a regression or basically any slowdown perk. So you have to start buying DLC to get i.e. PGW or Ruin. But even then you will have some serious difficulties with tracking, so you will need to grind a lot to get decent perks on at least one killer. Its not fun feeling completely helpless as 2 gen pop before you even find anyone or being completely unable to defend your last 3 gens as kicking does dogshit and single tap stops the regression.
As survivor you have much easier time to start, as there is very few perks directly affecting gen repair speed and most maps are fine without any exhaustion perk if you play stealth.
@@Debilinside Not really. Survivors technically have an advantage considering evey meta-perk is free except DS and CoH. But only technically, meta doesn't mean shit in low MMR and the first few hundred hours will only be low MMR.
Also, what you said about the free killer perks is just straight up not true. Thanatophobia is a great slow-down perk. Unnerving Presence and Huntress Lullaby also work extremely well in low MMR as slowdown + information perks, since new players struggle a lot with skill checks already and these perks amplify their struggle. Tinkerer is also very useful for gen pressure and gives information and Nurse's Calling is also a very good information perk.
Jolt is quite alright for gen pressure, too. Spies from the Shadows is amazing as an information perk.
Of course a completely new killer will suck against experienced survivors but that will happen vice-versa, too. And not a single perk could change that outcome anyway.
The starter killer perks are not meta, but work well for beginners against beginners. While meta killer perks would mostly just destroy beginner survivors hardcore. Using Devour or Ruin on new players is a guaranteed 4K, since they sometimes don't even understand cleansing yet + don't know common totem locations. A few meta perks also suck for new survivors (wasting dead hard, not understanding boon-totems and then self-care next to the radius or breaking evey totem so CoH can't even be placed, sucking at hiding and by that making Iron Will useless).
And there is NOED, what can fuck over new and experienced survivors alike.
If you actually watch new players, you'll see that new survivors lose a lot more against new killers than new killers lose against new survivors. My first win ever as a survivor was literally because the killer was afk and that was 20 rounds in.
You only start to get problems as a killer when you gain so enough experience to get out of low MMR, but by then, you should have enough iri shards to go for a new killer with nice perks or just pay the 2 bucks for a DLC key for Hag. On console they already have her anyway. Until sb reaches high MMR, they played more than enough to own every original-killer-meta-perk even if they haven't payed a single dime for the DLCs and only bought them with iri shards.
The most problematic thing is not the perks but every free killer except Wraith being not that easy to learn. Especially Nurse, Hillbilly and Trapper are hard af to use correctly as a new player.
I see 2 big problems:
1. BHVR are not truly understanding their game or what "skill" really means on a higher level than super casual.
2. EVEN IF they would understand. I think they are waaaaay to proud/ignorant to admit that they made a mistake with the current system. (kinda like Politicians xD)
The whole Q&A felt to me like: "Yes, we know your opinions, but we really don't care. We know what's best"
That's not the Q&A that's Behavior in general.
@@ScottJund I wanted to phrase it as nice as possible, but yes xD
Behavior has been so arrogant and ignorant to the community that this game isn't fun for me or my friends. I'm a killer main, and I love playing all of the killers. Killer has never been unfun for me, and yeah, sometimes I can't win, but that's the game. Go next, the next game could be fun. However, my friend and I play this game, so we have to duo. We've played this game forever and we have so many hours in the game, hundreds of hilarious clips, and tons of memories. This game was the most fun game I've ever played, but now it's unbearable. We've both quit because when we play survivor, having fun becomes rare.
Because of Behavior's neglect if DBD, the MMR system rewards killers for playing in the most unfun ways. Camping and tunneling is widely agreed to be boring and annoying. Me, myself, am a killer main. I know when the only option I have is to camp or tunnel, but killers from my experience don't. Nearly every single game we've played after the SBMM patch has been unfun and mostly a chore. Most killers we play against are hardcore meta, so we can't loop them for long (W is the only option), so no fun there. Besides, half of the games I played had killers that camped off of their first hook until their first kill. Then they camped their second. If they don't do that and actually pressure gens, they tunnel survivors out of the game. My friend and I can mostly handle getting tunneled, but our teammates (who are often significantly worse or babies), cannot.
I am not complaining about killer strategies. I am complaining that this game has become an infinite loop of boring waste of time matches because killers are rewarded for playing like this. I am not syre what the highest MMR looks like for survivors, as it is extremely hard to get there in my experience, but the casual survivor experience has changed so much. Sometimes we do have fun games where we can breathe, and sometimes we still get great moments. But it's gone from every game to every 20 games. My favorite game is unplayable. Thanks BHVR
Honestly, this is dangerously close to what happened to Tanki Online. I remember the game getting at least 40k players online at any given time, and that was after its prime. The devs kept making changes that the playerbase didn't like, and kept asserting that they knew what was best. Fast forward, and suddenly there were around 4k players playing on a good day. They made it so you can't see the online player count a few years back, but there's no way it's any higher now than it was back then.
Granted, the issue was exacerbated by a very pay-to-win playstyle as things went on, but I feel that happened because they wanted their monetary income to remain the same even though the active player base was rapidly falling.
Thats been Behaviour’s behaviour (lol) since 2019?, this game is fucked
Remember when we said BHVR don't understand their own game and people said we were being mean?
This man just said 2 hooking everyone and playing fairly is worse than facecamping.
I SCREAMED WHEN HE SAID THAT
I miss your dbd coverage. Not that I don’t blame you for going other routes. It’s draining playing the game and being a fan can’t imagine making content on it lol.
@@TonyLehane Every now and then there is a topic I’m like “it’s a shame I can’t talk about that”. But ultimately moving away from DBD as a creator has made me far happier.
@@Tericho that is genuinely so sad that you and so many others feel that way, I'm glad ur doing content u enjoy
Hey T, I never thought I’d see you here. XD
"If you hooked every survivor twice but they all escaped, did you really win?"
Lol, okay. If I hook one survivornand facecamp them with an instadown killer, did I do better than the guy who actually hooked everyone to death hook?
Fuckin a, man.
Almost word for word what I was going to comment
Just means I can 2 hook everyone and get paired with blueberries so I can keep having fun and not sweat every game
@@nathansparks9814 when I was playing a lot right after MMR dropped this was my strategy. I’d hook everyone once for BBQ, try for a second, and if I managed the 8th hook I started breaking stuff. It was a win win, I got pretty good BPs and didn’t push my MMR into sweaty levels
I mean I’m sorry but I think so. He’s factually found a better strategy at killing survivors than you. If you’re getting everyone on death hook, And all escapes, that screams low skill to me.
@@Summonick2 I would argue it’s lower skill but better strategy. Most people realize proxy camping and tunneling 1 person out ASAP is the best way to win because as soon as the game becomes 3-1 instead of 4-1 it really swings the power. However most of us would rather spend our game time in chases, not standing for 2 minutes staring at someone in a hook. The root problem is having fun in DBD and winning in DBD require opposite styles of play
My favorite was them refusing bots to fill in for disconnects with the excuse of "a bot is never going to be as good as a human, this is a multiplayer game so we want people to play together not with bots".
... But a bot is better than a disconnected player...
Dbd mobile has disconnection bots too. It's literally just bhvr being numbskulls
Program the bot to just hold w and predrop pallets with an occasional tbag or flashlight click and I likely wouldn’t even notice the distinction tbh.
@@richt7525 lmao the fact that you ain’t even exaggerating is the funniest part
@@yeayea115 I’ve gotten bots at the start of the game when the queue times are taking too long in the mobile before. I think the disconnect bots are a good idea but I hope don’t add the queue bots unless they make them a bit more skillful
@@kedricarmstead8760 the devs won't add DC bots to PC as that would be admitting they got upstaged by the outsourced devs for the mobile port.
I think the whole "if you didn't win, was it really skillful?" Was somewhat condescending. I could get 8 hooks while playing pinhead, land these chains, get quick downs/pressure gens. But I don't feel like I have a lack of skill if 4 survivors escaped that game.
I took it the other way of "If I run the killer for 5 gens, loop them to hell and back, moonwalk pallet stun into flashbang stun, etc. but die because the guy had NOED," is that really skillful? I can't even imagine how blind you would have to be to say that someone who died after adapting to and running loops on random tiles on a random map is not skillful, just because they took their first hit after all the gens are done and their teammates left
it's pretty skillful to me to get 8 hooks before 1 generator is popped, and then let them all escape after farming for 5 minutes. tanking my mmr on purpose to meme with baby survivors takes alot of skill in this busted, broken, stupid system.
frankly that’s just how mmr is. it’s a flawed system. it doesn’t take account of skill unless you win with said skill. that’s why elo hell in other games exist.
Exactly, I know kills are the killers main objective but 3 hooks 1 kill is no where near as impressive as 8 hook 0 kills. Hyper focusing one person like that will grant you a kill majority of the time but doesn't take a lot of effort, where as getting every survivor on the hook twice shows that you are able to end chases relatively quick, also this is just my 2 cents but in cases where i go up against a killer who just tunnels me then camps first hook their skill in ending chases is a lot lower than a killer who spreads out, and pressures gens. BHVR made the game but I don't think they actually play it very often because their understanding of whats skillful and what isn't is non existent
@@jonathanellwood2093 very true.
That "Hey guys depression here" was said at the speed of light.
Having depression
I legit had to rewind to catch that
@@lemonjello6377 Lmao
He's so clueless, it's crazy seeing that this person is representing game design and he was chosen for an advertised Q&A if this is the best they have then the game is truly doomed
They have a very arrogant attitude.
its been doomed? you continue to support the game...
@@saliva1305 thinking of giving up on the game myself
@@misterpinkandyellow74 very smart
@@saliva1305 I haven't played in a very long time I still like Scott videos regardless
watching this live was so funny when patrick was like "if you get 8 hooks but nobody died, should that *really* count as a win?" and immediately the chat was flooded with "??????YES???????YES IT SHOULD???????"
My exact reaction
In today's exciting episode of "Dead by Daylight developers do not understand quite literally anything about the game they make." Patrick makes everyone depressed, Almo is still in exile in Siberia, and McClean is still sorely missed
McLean is not sorely missed it you saw his response to junds fake developer update video on all the changes we been asking for years he was completely against everything
@@deeziegaming8545 I'm guessing that mclean guy was just lesser of evils
@@gachispy yes lesser but still evil unfortunately lol
McLean still has some merits.
@@pantless1472 McLean is likely responsible for Alchemist ring turning Blight into old Nurse, among many of blights busted add-ons
I feel ya, Depression.
There's an incredible difference in losing in a hockey match and losing in a dbd match. If you lose in a hockey match, you lose because you got outplayed or just aren't good enough. If you lose a dbd match, it can be because of things totally out of your control such as being facecamped by a bubba. That would be like if one of the hockey players pulled out a Glock in the middle of a hockey match and shot the players on the other team, then that being counted as a win for them, and a loss for the dead team.
Well, the player would get 5 minutes in the box for pulling the glock and the other team would get to have a power play for the whole duration (aka doing gens in dbd). Hockey is weird.
As a player, in hockey, as said in the video, all the players get the win if the team wins, in dbd you can sacrifice yourself so 3 players escape and you get the lose even if you were the "top scorer" of the team, and you lose mmr as the most BP (so most actions towards the win) and maybe the blandette in the corner with 9k bps gets a win
a dead team cant score so it makes sense, would be a dick move to pull out a gun but still would make u win
Probably the worst choice of sport for this analogy. Anyone who watches hockey would tell you the team that outplays loses plenty of times.
@@PauloAguil really? Damn I didn't know. I'm not one of the 3 hockey player mains sadly
Patrick: "Should hooking every survivor twice and not killing anybody count as a win?"
Me: "yes."
Patrick: "Obviously, no."
Me: "Oh, ok."
It usually does, he’s just dumb
@@Zakon673 its more of a win than getting 1k because you camped one person and the rest have no hooks. And at this point, I wouldn't really say its a slasher simulator
@@kerm7532 Also not tanking your own bloodpoint or other players, hooking every player twice means that there are chases and objectives being done inbetween the hooks presumably, therefore every player are doing things that give them bloodpoints in a match.
@@Zakon673 It's not even a slasher simulator. it's more of a torture porn game than a slasher sim.
I think its fine to count that as a win, but not not as a loss for survs. And if we are doing it individually, surviving while dead on hook is a draw. Then taking a hit and going down to save someone thats dead on hook, means you loose MMR for that play.
*the inner machinations of Patrick’s mind are an enigma* . 🥛
HoOCkey GaME 🏒
LOOL NICE REFERENCE
Milk spills over table
We already knew BHVR was clueless about their own game but this, this is to go even further beyond.
Indeed
I've never seen a dev team be so confidently incorrect since "you think you do, but you don't" from Blizzard. The Q&As are straight up embarrassing at this point. Any other game that infantilized their community this much would be dead, but because BHVR snatched up all the major horror licenses, its hard to compete.
The sad part is that nobody can measure how much better they'd be doing had they been covering at least the actual base for professionalism. Right now, they have no pressure to do anything better and are actually under the delusion they're doing well because of the numbers. This world is a joke, and a bad one.
The hockey comparison is super confusing because someone who has like, 30 shots on net in a game is literally considered very good at breaking past the defense. That's an important skill to have and while it doesn't hand you wins people will think you're really good if you consistently get up to the net and take shots. Now of course a goalie who is able to block that many shots and doesn't allow any goals is INCREDIBLY good and you'd probably say in this situation the Goalie is the one who is demonstrating the biggest showing of skill in this weird scenario...
A hockey player who is able to consistently get himself in the position to score means either your team is very good at getting past the defense or the defense is dogshit. This is why personal stats are a thing. If you consistently do very well your personal stats will show and there's a high chance a good team will try to pick you up. You may not get WINS out of it but you sure as hell get SOMETHING out of it that'll benefit your career.
but anyways, shooting on the net in hockey isn't going to win you the game but it shows how good you are at getting to the net and that's half the battle. Bad comparison by the devs.
So what you're saying is Patrick doesn't understand Hockey or DBD, honestly feels like he doesn't know anything about games in general
@@seakhajiit He's not wrong that shots don't = wins. But that's an incredibly reductionist outlook on the sport. Hockey isn't close enough to DBD for it to make sense anyways. Team VS Team. Solo VS Team.
Even 5 or 6 shots is a high number for some of the game's most frequent shooters
@@ayosnack1607 Sorry, was just using a big number to try and prove a point. 30 is usually the total amount of shots on net in a game. But you're right. If you've got 6-10 shots that's very well done.
@@william4996 ofc! Just saying for people who don't get it, the analogy is big dumb lol
My question is why, in a game as random and unpredictable as Dead by Daylight, is there even an mmr system in the first place? It's like putting an elo system in Mario Party
Mario party elo lol
DbD is actually less random than several games with large competitive scenes. It has no output randomness (DOTA grand finals have been decided by a crit) nor does it have the ability to autolose from RNG (poker, MTG, autochess). The ability to manage random chance is a skill, even if its not a skill that you value.
So that baby Dwights who just installed don't get completely shitstomped by a 5000 hour high level Nurse, Spirit or Blight 5 games in a row. The game isn't as random as something like Mario Party because that is purely dice rolls and RNG where ad DBD does at least have aspects of the game you can influence with skill and practice (looping, mind games, prediction, game sense).
I honestly blame the playerbase for begging for it for years
1) This idiotic player base asked for it, just like the cosmetic store
2) Because it's made on a way that hooks new players and makes them spend a lot of money as soon as possible before they realize that the game in fundamentaly flawed
you couldve just cut a part on your stream of the 2 hours you spent talking about this, but you decided to talk about it all over again recording it in a video, props
Not gonna lie you had me in the first half lol, I thought you were going to throw a little shot but it was wholesome 😁
Feel like that’s most dbd content of late, a game they did good cut out from a section of their stream
I love how painfully blind the game's devs are to how muddied the idea of "winning" is in DBD.
Edit: he's saying that getting 2 hooks but the survivors escaping wouldn't make sense as a win. Okay, agreed. Why not have a point based system? Hooks give points, but if everybody escapes, you lose points? That would be better than nothing. If you get kills, those ALSO give points. That would go a long way to balance out how people escaping would affect the points.
Omg! Another Linkin park fan
@@bubbasbasementparty4570 Indeed!!!! Been a fan since 2009 🤘
They are literally telling you what they count as a win; you are just choosing to ignore it because its convenient for you.
@@ebaynetflix stop defending the devs and see they have no idea what they're talking about
@@b2superbattledroid977 Then please explain how, because Scott is wrong in a way that numerous other attempts in quantifying skill in a game have proven to be true. If you can't articulate why something is wrong other than feeling its wrong or parroting a content creator, then you should reevaluate your position as being incorrect.
The whole reason shots on goal exists as a statistic is for determining the comparative skill of individual players. If you were making a hockey matchmaking system to try and create balanced teams, you would absolutely take shots on goal into account.
Like yeah it’s nuanced but “time in chase” or *literally anything* would be better than “did player hold w through exit gate in correct direction y/n”. Time in chase/resources utilized, maybe with some multipliers, or time in chase/successful hits.
Does he not realize that a win could be a *piece* of the formula?
Not to mention the RNG they talked about.... a match can swing violently in one direction or another based on it.... in that hokey scenario it would be like blind tossing the puc onto the field after you did the same with both goals and all players. in some situations the goal of one team would be hugging and facing the wall to make it impossible to score on or another with the puc 2 feet away from a goal next to an enemy player.
Your game was not built to be a sport stop trying to bubble gum and rubber band it into one.
Clearly he does not
Sometimes the right move for a survivor is to make a sacrifice. Sometimes them not getting out can allow the others to escape.
Sometimes its not the right move to go save someone on hook. If the person on hook was chased all game, then doesnt get saved are they less skilled? The team won the game, but not the one who did the work?
Survivor is more difficult to rank than killer. Without a detailed and comprehensive system to tell the entire story, survivors can really only be scored as a team.
"Hey guys, we have such a massive lack of killer players that we can barely have a matchmaking system. Any solutions?"
"Idk man, just make it nearly impossible to hook a survivor after you down them. Obscure hooks, double the wiggle effect so they get stuck on everything, make survivors gain 25% wiggle progress when the killer is forced to drop due to awful map design, hell, just add great skill checks to wiggling that can shave of over 3 seconds"
"why stop there, just make it nearly impossible to down them in the first place - look what we did on the game map, i think we need more god pallets and stronger heal meta"
1 second but it's still a large amount
@@yeayea115 It's 1 second per great skill check I believe, and 3 greats is just an average amount most people will hit
@@bigdaddysquare7278 negative. Comparison video showed it requires all great skill checks hit to shave off one second
It's 1 second, not 3. And most players won't even hit the skill checks.
Arguably one of the worst Q&As I've ever seen. Wish they would address the hacking/ddos attacks/swatting that is going on in the community.
>Expecting BHVR to adress the community.
Last time they did it was with 2.0 and I am of the argument that this update was the beggining of every current problem.
perk tiers oof
Wait? People are still swatting? Jesus some People I swear aren't even human.
Talk about tone deaf. With the way things are going, if they really wanna ignore everything their own players say, then I guess it's time to get off this sinking ship.
If someone had told me Patrick is just making a parody of the actual dev team I would have believed it.
What is even more baffling is that BHVR is paying these clueless morons to do a job that many fans would gladly do for free with enormously better results. A true Sprintburst Lithe moment right there.
"We noticed there were less Killers and it was harder to find matches"
I keep saying this, but Killer players are dropping out of this game.
I mean think about it, really fucking think about it for a moment:
-Obnoxious Healing Meta
-The meta making build creativity less viable for Killers that don't play this game for a living; either play sweaty meta perks or struggle more than you should have to
-Increasingly shitty toxic Survivors. Not saying this is the worst game when it comes to "ToXIciTy", but newcomers aren't gonna be encouraged to continue playing Killer when they run into sweat squads that humiliate them
-MMR reset DID negatively affect some people and caused Killers to start running into more of these squads if not for a brief time
-Prevalence of hackers, both soft and hard. You have the very obvious, kinda funny ones, but then you have shit like subtle speed boosts and pallet magneticism. Doesn't help these hackers are always toxic Survivors too
-Behavior's obsession with nerfing Killers rather than simply buffing opposition where it is needed, so your favorite main will usually wind up worse off
-The grind to get anti-meta perks
-General playstyle linearity once you reach a certain skill level, AKA boredom
-Behavior's complete refusal to fix core problems with the game
Why should people keep playing Killer. Reasonably justify it. Make it make sense. I LOVE the characters they have in this game, Silent Hill and Resident Evil are my baby. Doctor has a cool design. Huntress is hatchet mommy. But there is such a huge disconnect between playing the Killer and feeling like the Killer. You don't feel empowered, you don't feel like a methodical murderer or an oppressive force. You feel like an annoyed employee at a daycare center having to wrangle up 4 nasty children with bad attitudes. And that feeling gets old.
this comment deserves an award :D
The last part was a perfect description of what killer feels like lol.
I mean personally, I've been playing ghostface purely so when I lock eyes with a survivor over a dropped pallet and they tbag me, I can tbag them back and we can share a special moment over the pallet. That's it, that's why I play killer
Exactly. Just like you said, not even the slightest power fantasy is there anymore.
I agree with everything but am failing to understand exactly what you mean on your 3rd point. If a team absolutely destroys a newcomer but doesn't clicky click or tbag, and is nice in the end game chat does that still count as toxic to you? When MMR shits the bed and pairs me up with a killer who bought the game 20 mins ago I don't go easy but always give encouragement in post game chat to keep playing killer and to not give up.
running killer for 5 gens and dying while the rest of the team leaves with no hooks bad.
hide in bush with urban evasion good xo
This makes me think that the devs are either highly incompetent, or just dislike skillful play in their game because it was never meant to be competitive in any way.
@@smooktober7639 THEN WHY DO THEY FORCE MMR UPON US?
I really couldn't believe that their lead game designer justify their MMR with comparing an 4 vs 1 asymmetrical game with an team sports game...
They should just go back to the old emblem rank system and try to improve that! MMR is basically 1 step forward and 2 steps back...
I kind of think it's more like one step forward, off the stool.
Good one
I would totally pay to see Patrick play a few dbd matches. I bet my ass he's a complete shitter
Pretty sure all devs of DBD are trash. That’s why they continue nerfing killers for their own sake😂
@@NealBoss I'm a survivor main, and I can guarantee they're all incredibly bad, most killers can be somewhat easily handled with experience meanwhile we have shit like fucking BOONS...
Christ, why were boons added???
To help the babies pick up a character and find a way to be useful to their team, which I'm guessing includes the devs bc they still haven't nerfed them
@@NealBoss Nerfing? You mean buff right? This game is definitely killer sided and you'd be dumb to think otherwise
@@cosseybomb what killer have they been buffing besides adding the dumb addon to blight? And the game is in no way killer or survivor sided by default it only becomes that way depending on what killer, map, swf, or unfair tactics (ie face camping/ tunneling) and even then they are ways to play around them
@@cosseybomb you’re joking right?
Also, about the "goal" thing, I mean, at least hockey is balanced. The game's characteristics are the same in all games. If a hockey team could randomly get bad equipment during a match, maybe that comparison could at least be a little more correct.
6:05 To me, this (at the very least) suggest they're pro campers and aren't good enough in either role to understand actual skill. Someone hooking 8 times is far more impressive (and telling) than just saying someone got two kills. It also encouraged non-camping behaviour to weigh hooking over deaths, which is one of the primary complaints from survivors. It's never fun to be targeted the whole game or camped and die on hook. You don't get to play the game.
Very rarely are game designers actually good at their game, nor do they necessarily have to be. That's why you get feedback from your community, assuming the devs actually listen. It seems like the DBD team is taking pages from the Diablo playbook.
@@CloudsOfDespair Yeah, they don't listen to their community at all and act like they know what's best, despite being inept while playing.
I think a lot of people overestimate how easy or successful the camping/tunneling play style is. I think it’s far less impressive to shit away a game with 8 hooks and no kills than to get a dirty 3-4K using camping and tunneling when needed. I find almost no challenge in getting lots of hooks, especially if I just proxy camp and hook the rescuer. Getting kills in dbd is pretty hard.
@@Summonick2 is reliant on the other person's skill and not your own. Also I'm not really talking about someone who uses it when needed, but someone who defaults to it. Someone camping isn't chasing or finding people, which is a killer skill.
This makes me wanna pick Bubba, facecamp people and then at the end of the game say "Hey dont be mad at me Patrick said this was skillfull gameplay."
I also appreciate how they pointed out that the bloodpoint cap is useless when u can earn more bp every month then the cap itself. But i think the only reason they still have the cap is they cant think of anyway to keep a player base instead of addictive gambling tactics.
1:15 ok this bothers me. You absolutely could make an advanced system for dbd, it would just take time and effort and that is something bhvr have almost no incentive to do. They could take into account the type of perks people run, how long they get chased, how many chases they escape, how long they are crouched and not moving, how much gen progress they do, how many hook rescues, on and on and on. Assign point values to each (positive or negative) and your mmr changes depending on that score based system. Instead they spent 2 years working on a match making system that literally boils down to Kill or escape. Honestly EMBLEMS were more interesting because you could still pip and die. You could facecamp 2 people and depip. Also the highest level of play, rank one, wasn't even that skillful. It was full of people who just play alot, and that is a way better design choice for a game like dbd. The more balance you try to force onto dbd, the less room for silly shit there is and the more people just wanna do gens and get out or facecamp to ensure they get their kills. Bhvr have an ego that is going to get them in trouble one day... all I gotta say is Im glad Elden Ring is coming out next month because I am gonna wash my hands of the game and see as an outsider what happens to it for years down the road.
Is it possible? Yeah you totally could the reason Scott and others say you are unable to is because it wastes a lot of time since you could quite easily spend less time on a system that works just as well
we have litarally seen them do exactly what u just said to a degree with the bloodpoint system which is still in the game to this day. they are highly capable of assigning "skill points" to various actions to determine skill but they are blatantly just lazy and dont want to spend time on making an effective system. at the end of the day, there is absolutely no reason to have a sbmm system in a game that is unbalanced from the core and doesnt even have a comptetive option to seperate the sweaty fanbase of the game from the casuals
They already have this in the emblem system, for the most part. The structure is already there!
remember how long it took for them to make this shitty sbmm system? 2 years! Now asking for an advanced system god knows how many more years it would take for them to just create a demo test system
@@wrathybear 2 years to come up with
escape = good
die = bad
i don't understand how my brain is still working from the amount of dead by daylight I've played. HELP
How long have you played? I've got around 2k hours myself.
Dude I cannot wait to see your reaction to this stream. Definitely some dank memes. Man's literally says getting everyone to death hook doesn't mean you did well 😂😭
It is a joke at this point.
You know what I consider well in life? Playing any other game...XD im such a hypocrite...
just watch it on twitch
Losing is not skillful and you shouldn't pretend it is.
@@yurei3714 just did
This basically just boils down to BHVR being to prideful to admit that they're wrong, or just oblivious to how wrong they are.
Also, let's not forget that they teased Borrowed Time potentially becoming basekit.
What does base kit mean?
@@DmaSells it’s mean every survivor gets it with out it taking up a perk slot so think of it as now every survivor has 5 perks
@@DmaSells it mean they will have it on them at all times, even if they don't have the perk equiped.
Now now dont forget ill now buy bubba face camp 1-2 survivors to death and now im much better then Otz scott and etc combined
According to Patrick Atleast LOL
I mean, bt becoming basekit sounds good.. doesn't it?
They literally already have a system in place that awards blood points and you have a higher score at the end of every game when you didn't just sit on Gens. If you sit on Jen's all game and then escape your score will be low compared to other people that interacted with the killer and unhooked survivors. So hes saying that there's too much nuance yet they already have a system that awards you more blood points for doing well in a game I don't understand how this is difficult.
BP and MMR are different......but I see where your coming from.
That’s how it was when the game launched. "Ranking" Bloodpoints required Pips Awarded
0 - 6999 -1
7000 - 9999 0 (Safety Pip)
10000 - 19999 1
20000 - 32000 2
@@kilzfordays not only BP system, but remember we also had the Emblem system aswell afterwards, that system that did stuff like factor in gen completion, unhooks, getting downed, healing, and how long you did chases. It was not perfect and had issues of the 'jumping through hoops' problem but it was a hell of a lot more robust then the current MMR system, everyone kinda assumed anyway the MMR system would tweak and grab the emblem elements, but i guess people had too high expectations for something claimed to have taken 2 years.A unfortunate trend in general with anything in regards to core gameplay health in this game (Why the hell did it take years to increase Keys hatch animation and have them deplete, why is that a several year rework, why did the endgame collapse take 4 years?, ect)
Exactly. If this system is already in place to earn bp and rank up, then just make it a ranked game again and match people based on their ranks. Like…duh. Why abandon a ranked system that covered all of the “nuances” for a black and white mmr system that isn’t suitable for a game like this? It’s not fucking rocket science. They’re literally so lazy and they just don’t give a fuck anymore.
@@thepisswhore People try to talk in circles to make excuses for them because they are fan boys but you hit it on the head honestly
God what I would do to see a debate between Patrick and his take on player skill against any of the big community figures.
I’ve never kept up with developers for this game and honestly this broke my heart. The second he started talking about “every survivor gets hooked twice but escape, is that a win?” I’d consider that a win. They played well, and on top of it all it shouldn’t be black and white. 10/10 Scott but this dev really saddens me. By his logic all the devs are probably garbage at their own game
"if you count those 8 hooks towards your rating you could end up with a win"
Well no, if you adjust each hook to give different mmr value, that will nevers happen.
Just as an example, let's set a win/loss at max +/- 10 points (pts from now on) per 1v1. Give the first 2 hooks a value of 2pts and the third hook a value of 6pts, starting from that, you have 2 route to change the MMR at the end of the game:
Either you go full hook count, so if the survivor escape after being hooked twice -> 2+2-6=-2pts for the killer.
(+2 for each hook,-6 for failing to do the third)
Or you base it on escape.
So with the same scenario as before -> -10+2+2+0=-6pts
(-10 for the escape, +2 for each hook, +0 because no third hook).
And if you kill the survivor -> -0+2+2+6=10pts
(-0 for the kill, +2 for the first 2 hooks, +6 for the third).
Both work fine and will even allow game to have nuanced match result and will probably work for survivor too if you swap the + and -.
Also, if you make it so that only new hook count (not progressive like forcing 2 stage), a facecamping player will only ever gain 2pts from a kill unlike 10pts for one that try for 12 hooks, so even with 2 kill a player that camp will overall lose pts.
Just that very simple adjustment there is already 100 times better than what we got now
Patrick the Flatdick seems to have proven he has no business being a community head, he is far too smug and arrogant. Every time he talks about MMR in these QnAs he always becomes super hated and condescending.
@@Tufticles I actually had never seen this side of them and after this dudes attitude making me literally want to throw up in my mouth, I feel so guilty for spending how much I have on cosmetics.... I can’t support this
Patrick deserves to be fired at this point unless he's being held hostage by the Bhvr higher ups to add sbmm
Why do I think about Zubatlel
It's actually a job requirement at BHVR to be the worst at what you filled to and yet have the biggest fucking ego on the entire visable universe.
@@luden1577 what makes you think about zubatlel
@@gilberino1909 zubats name is Patrick
Wipe the whole fucking team at this point. Just take game balance ideas from fog whisperers.
I think mmr for survivor should be based on the number of escapes of the whole team. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be better.
no
This has been at the forefront of my mind for a while. A single action they could do massively improve QOL is dealing with queue times, ergo bring in more killer player to balance out the player base.
Whether it comes from a BP incentive or a shift in the balance of power, it needs to be dealt with. I can feel the atmosphere changing, but I know so many are still so passionate about DBD after so many years playing. Here's hoping the devs can fix this before it becomes unsustainable
For real, killers could literally get like a 1.15x BP multi post-game and I'd go back to playing killer no matter how meta & toxic it gets. Catch me running NOED, BBQ, Devour Hope and Thrill 😈
Every time I watch Patrick's responses and comments regarding anything about dbd, he seems like he's so smug and full of himself and I wanna think I'm wrong but I can't. Mathieu, despite leaving some infamous scandalous comments, seemed more kind and most importantly down to earth, idk 😒
It's never a good decision to act like you think the players are dumb
well he should continue to think that way about his leaving players - in the end at least hes right about his game no one is playing anymore
God it’s beyond smug and full of himself, he acts like you just called his child a slur when you question the ranking system
@@DoctorDarlingTTV lol
I stopped playing a month after MMR.
The issue at high MMR compared to Iridescent survivors:
Iridescent survivors were there because they looked to be chased. They interacted with teammates, they tried to get blinds to gain points etc. High ranked killers got good matches with FUN players.
High MMR survivors are only good at escaping, many aren't good at chasing, and are just skilled at being away from the killer and completing generators. The 'iridescent' survivors from before are now mid MMR because they get killed while doing chases and playing all parts of the game.
So now High MMR killers have a terrible, boring, and quick game that doesn't interact with ANY of the fun parts of the game.
Thats why I stopped playing. The game just isn't enjoyable for killers due to the way MMR works.
I still very much think circle of bullshit, overly generous hit validation, and good friggin lord the dead hard buff, are all contributing factors, but having read this I’d have to say I wholeheartedly agree. It’s such a dramatic shift that happened so gradually that I never quite noticed above the subconscious level, but now that you’ve pointed it out it’s obvious and undeniably true. Playing killer is just so much more stressful now with far less of the ‘fun’. My only incentive to carry on anymore is rising above the challenge to stomp annoying ppl, and it’s likely not good for my waning mental health lol.
The high mmr streamers I watch are getting more and more "potato" squads when playing survivor, it's so stupid and it's fun for nobody. The easier it is for survivors, the more sensitive they become to getting killed and the more toxic they act towards killers that simply try to win (aka deadass calling them bad for winning because they did it through "op" means, calling them tunnellers and campers when that's not even what they did, etc.), and a system that tells you you're gonna get rewarded if you escape and nothing else exacerbates this so much more. Before, you got killed, big deal, you got your points and your pips IF you actually did well. The initial goal of the game wasn't to survive, it was to play, and that's why you got such small bp caps per thing to do. This was due to the undercooked design that does nothing to naturally force interactions, and thus the forementioned was the fix. Now that it's gone... well... we get this bs.
I stopped after a month cause solo q became a "try not to rage quit" challenge, I ended up with people that had less than 100 hours every game. in a month I got at max 10 good survivors, not even amazing, barely good.
It isn't enjoyable for survivors either lmaao
Hey Depression, Guys here.
i said it first
I like Scott's taped little pad on his headphones. I didn't realize Scott had his own line of MLG pro gamer headphones with additional padding.
I swear, Patrick is gonna be the guy that gets me to uninstall, he's so arrogant and out of touch.
It’s honestly “what do you guys not have phones” level. I’m incredulous. He’s so PERSONALLY offended that he may have a system that isn’t great-it’s a very depressing overwhelming ego here literally ruining this game that we all love at its core. This person is gross
"People would rather play an unbalanced game than no game whatsoever"
No, I'd rather just move on to another game. Which I have and will continue to do for the foreseeable future. Same with friends who are much newer to the game than I am.
Love Huntress, love her look, lore, mechanics, etc.
Hate playing DBD because it is almost always boring, miserable, or both and I'd rather boot up FFXIV, Minecraft, Spelunky 2, etc. because at least I know I'm going to enjoy myself.
Lmfao. This.
Do they think that DbD is the only game in existence?
@@blueboy1958 Apparently some people do. I gave up DBD last month and went back to GTA Online, I haven't played the game since. I just watch DBD videos now.
@@xxprototypexx5056 I gave it up once Boons came. Playing Deep rock galactic and enlisted ever since
6:44 I love Scott's cat just being a cat in the background 😂
cats tend to do that yeah
What a worthless comment
@@Null041 your fun at party's
@@trashyboiyeee9149 that comeback doesn't even work here
@@Null041 lmfao who hurt you?
That was the most shocking thing by far from the Q&A is how there still completely clueless how there own game works. They said oh yeah we all read the community's feed back but yet they clearly don't or just ignore it. Survivor Que times for me are never ever bad during the day, only at night are they longer. So maybe it's just your Region, only playing late nights, or that your high MMR or something.
This is an MMR formula I came up with within less than an hour (came up with it a few months ago shortly after MMR was introduced).
All points would be rounded up or down to the nearest MMR point after the calculation is made.
Killer
a = number of hooks
b = number of kills
MMR points = ((a*1.5) + b) -10
At maximum, a killer could get 12 MMR points in a match.
Example #1
If a killer got 8 hooks, and 3 kills, they would receive 5 MMR points.
Example #2
If a killer got 4 hooks, and 1 kill, they would lose 3 MMR points.
Survivor
a = % of generators completed (100% is one generator's worth)
b = # of safe unhooks you made
c = # of seconds you were in chase
d = # of seconds you were in the killer's field of view, but not in a chase
e = escaping the trial, not through the hatch (would give you 2 points)
MMR points = ((a/40) + b + (c/8) + (d/12)) + e) - 10
Example #1
If a survivor completed 200% worth of gens, made 2 safe unhooks, was in chase with the killer for 40 seconds, was in the killer's FOV (while not in chase) for 25 seconds, and escaped the trial, they would receive 6 MMR points.
Example #2
If a survivor completed 250% worth of gens, made 3 safe unhooks, was in chase with the killer for 60 seconds, was in the killer's FOV (while not in chase) for 38 seconds, but didn't escape the trial, they would still receive 11 MMR points.
Example #3
If a survivor completed 75% worth of gens, made no safe unhooks, was in chase with the killer for 15 seconds, was in the killer's FOV (while not in chase) for 10 seconds, and escaped the trial, they would lose 3 MMR points.
If you increased Example 3's gen progression to 250% to make it more akin to a "gen-rush" match, they would only receive 2 MMR points.
*If a survivor DC's, every other survivor, and the killer, receive a number of MMR points equal to the number of hook stages that the DC'ing player had remaining.
*For the FOV points, they can use a similar system to how they track Stalking for Ghost Face & Myers.
*Technically, a survivor can get more % of generators completed if a killer is running gen-regression perks. It could actually reward survivors for playing against strong perks such as Pop, Ruin, or Pain Resonance.
The Solution to this problem is Competitive mode and Casual game mode with appropriate incentives, achievements and punishments along with a community leader board with killer/survivor specific identifiers like "hook-camp deaths," "hooks," "rescues," "tunnel kills," ect to detail the leader boards and add data stems.
One player base still- but new stems of data from their "competitive minded" gamers that will affect the MMR algorithm inevitably but mostly leave experience relative to intentional leaderboard grind.
They're stumped at all the data & nuance because they don't have enough identifiers and the players of all mindsets are forced together. It wouldnt be perfect but it will significantly increase "better games" by utilizing a combination of player mindset selection and new data stems. Hire me bhvr
Fucking
HIRE.
HIM.
BHVR.
That doesn't solve the main issue in the video... idk what you mean
They said the word soon so many times i forgot what the word meant for a moment
Your hockey analogy analysis is so forking sound. This immediately elevates you to the elite of DBD CCs. Keep the momentum going 🤙🏼
Why isnt he understanding and hearing out the voices of his own community and then trying to falsely criticize us. BHVR cannot even makeout their own game. BHVR has a very basic understanding of what a game is. I dont understand how Patrick has such a basic and flat out understanding that winning means "skill." which isnt completely untrue but he also doesnt understand that skillful players also lose, to many things in that fact. But its more of he is seeing it as a fact that if you dont win then you didnt have a skillful play.
So we have to play tunnel games that feel shit because Patrick feels weird about giving killers credit for a 9 hook game. Brilliant design.
Do you think they could bring in a system which updates regularly to show you which side has a larger player base and incentivise you with a blood point multiplier to play the other side? May keep the game in equilibrium?
Say 80:20 surv:killer is even and every percent below for either side gives 25% bonus each game
I was taking a drink when I started the video and almost spit it out when you said 'hey guys, depression here' and kept going without missing a beat.
Something abou the deadpan "Hey, depression here" at the beginning made me laugh a lot harder than it probably should have.
The thing that stands out to me here is that SKILL and a WIN are two completely different things.
The crappy old pip system is still far more useful than this single Kills/Escapes metric.
But yeah, that last point nails it. Doesn't matter how good the system is if the matchmaking prioritizes queue times to the point it becomes irrelevant.
I'll take 9 hooks 1k all day vs 2 hooks 2k with camping
It's not even close, that's all chases vs sitting on the hook.
If that's what the game rewards, that's what you should do. Playing honorably doesn't make you a better killer, it just makes you worse.
@@ebaynetflix Some people care about having fun.
@@ebaynetflix well I absolutely don't care about mmr, the emblem and points system gives more for more chases and hooks.
Also If committing to more and more chases doesn't make you a better player, what does that? Camping?
@@Pouria_1664 Winning makes you the better player. The fact that you value chases more than the game's win condition is a personal judgement of yours. Literally every game has people complaining about strategies to win, from zoners in fighting games to zerg rush in Star Craft. This behavior is neither unique to DBD nor is it any more true. This is just something that DBD players tell themselves to feel better about their loss.
@@ebaynetflix no you're misunderstanding it. I'm saying I value being in chases to learn and improve than to camp to get kills
However truly as you said, only chasing unless you're stomping every chase so that they're not keeping up with gen pressure, it's not gonna be successful in for a kills and winning stand point.
Basically my point was playing in a match normally than just face camping and not bothering with anything like gens ,strategies to win and etc. but I very well understand and apply a strategy than just chases to win for sure. Also fun is a more important factor to me, so even if I'm losing I'd rather not camp till end game either way
For me in the afternoon (1pm - 5pm) survivor queue are super fast! but in the night (7pm - 12pm or more) killer queue are fast and survivor queue are trash. To clarify, when I say fast I mean like 5 -15 sec queue and when i say slow is like 5 - 10 mins.
Thank your for your effort of going through it all and explaining! It's sad to see how the Devs don't care about making the game better and accepting high-quality feedback. At least you care, Scott
They have a scoring system in place already. Immersed players are normally rarely on gens and typically are the problem in a group. Why not have MMR based on how often you score within let’s say a 5 minute time frame. Your average score per 5 minutes should be your MMR. It’s not perfect but it’s 1000 times better than just escapes and kills.
That’s how it worked originally. PIPing was determined purely on score when the game launched . This is countered simply by farming though. I’d still go back to it if we could.
This reminds me of how COD leaderboards used to work. To be high on the leaderboards you needed to have a high SPM because that's generally more impressive than just camping for a high KD or playing in a full team with comms to win every game. An MMR system that's based off of how many points you're getting every 5 mins would be interesting, and a hell of a lot better than the current system
Honestly I just don't get why they can't use the grade system. It basically already does a really good job of showing how you did in the match. And it also shows what grade you're on and how close you are to going up or down
Finally, glad someone with a platform spoke on it
Okay but damn you are fine!!!
@@eternalchocolate53 aww thanks!
I've seen a number of asymmetric games, particularly those built around one-against-many scenarios, collapse or peter out.This video, and the broader topic it's addressing, have made me start to wonder: maybe the secret to making one of these work is allowing for the two sides to sometimes both win (or both lose, if appropriate) as long as there's enough tension in both sides' goals that it doesn't become fully cooperative.
Everything you’ve said is what I wish I could say to my friends when waiting in the lobby discussing what needs to be done to improve matchmaking. You’re good with the words, great vid.
That Q&A was a mess, that bald guy was dodging the questions, he could do well as a politician (pun).
4:20
and that guy who so good that run killer for ages and died his mmr will get lower so he play vs new noob killers
how this stupid mmr is balanced?
literally such a stupid system
DBD: looks like you couldnt escape the facecamping bubba on your own. shame about your MMR then. your teammates did better than you so rewards for them.
a couple things were weird like this but the rest of the qna in my opinion was pretty good tbh, they had some good questions and answers,
way better than the one from before.
I've said this on literally every streamer video that talks about MMR. During primetime, the survivor queue times are now long enough that MMR matchmaking no longer applies. It will match killers to whatever survivor has been waiting the longest.
When he said "hey guys depression here" I felt that
i wish someone would hold me like he holds that chapstick
This is an incredibly well-put way of describing the flaws and problems in developer’s claims. Very well-said!
Nice to meet you depression, I'm procrastination ignoring my schoolwork to learn about a game I rarely play anymore
The chat roasting them on skills by spamming bubba was hilarious 😂😂
Dude please tell me this is satire. You just hired people to say this, honestly good work I almost believed it. Even got actors that look exactly like the devs. I will continue to live this delusion.
They could just turn the old matchmaking system on again, but make it invisible this time, and keep the current grades and rewards that we have.
This way everyone would be ranked depending on how much they interact with everything during a game, while not depipping if they didn't do well.
I mean, they have already developed a system that rewards you if you actually do stuff during a match other than escaping or killing, they just stopped using it for matchmaking for whatever reason.
This demonstrates the advantage of VHS. It starts with a clear and concise win condition: the other side is dead. There is no escaping. There is no draw. We are 5 years in to DBD and the win condition the devs are circling their wagons around is still strongly contested by the player base. This means the win condition they are balancing the game/killers around does not match with how the players actually play the game.
I feel like the pathetic circle of healing nerf was just thrown in with no thought so when people say that circle of healing is powerful as shit numbskulls can go “well they nerfed it!!!” in response
yeah basically, I rarely play killer but am pretty unbiased when it comes to balancing. Healing speeds don't mean shit when the boon can just be put in the same spot over and over again. 5 totems spawn which means there should only be 5 boon placements in each game assuming the killer snuffed every single one. This would also help newer players learn totem spawns because it would force them to go find another totem to bless. The audacity of these devs lol
@@smooktober7639 the existence of one survivor having circle of healing pretty much eliminates any chance of snowballing the average killer has unless they purposefully go out of their way to find and snuff boons anytime they’re placed down. One survivor bringing a single perk can fuck the average killer so hard man
I like how the stream literally started with the most pathetic defensive move:
"HEY GUYS WE NERFED COH WE NERFED COH!!!!! WE ARE *LISTENING* !!!!"
25% heal speed LOL not even a real nerf
Easy solution to hook vs kills problem. Hooks = Points, Kills = Hook Point multiplyer.
Survivor
Unhooks = points, 30 sec + chase = points, Gens popped = Points (less so than previous two, to avoid people ranking into higher tiers by hiding)
survival = Point Multiplyer per suvivor
I think a better analogy would be baseball.
If the bases are loaded and I hit a triple, three of my teammates make it to home plate, and then I get tagged out, that's a really good play, especially if it wins my team the game.
Likewise if I run a killer for 3 gens then die first hook, but the rest of my team is able to get out because of it, that should count as a win.
He's Canadian, I'm not sure he'd even know what baseball is. (/s)
I'm honestly just waiting for an alternative to this game: I don't feel its going to grow in a positive direction.
These devs are beyond clueless.
And they still refuse to use any decent anti cheat.
Especially now SBMM has exposed how many cheat, most more subtle than others.
To fix not having enough killer players they’d have to rebalance the game to be 1 v 5, 1 v 6, 1 v 7, etc. And that’s probably Dead by Daylight 2.
Regarding MMR, what if instead of sacrifices, escapes, or even hooks, it just used pre-escape score? And increase the score value for being in chase with the killer and/or eliminate the halved penalty for getting caught.
I love it when they do these QnAs and they’re answers are always “We not gonna talk about it” or “You don’t know anything, and everything we do is right”
i think time between health states should also be taken into account. A good survivor will take longer to get hit twice and a good killer will down them pretty fast
I disagree, for reasons like a bad player predroping every pallet in the map to avoid getting hit or a good player taking hits from another teammate
I was thinking chase time but your idea is actually a lot better than mine, good thinking.
@@bylukx pre-dropping every pallet will only really work for one chase and that's if the killer can't work around it, which most good killers can. Also, taking a hit would be a one time thing and then they either escape the chase or become the new target and then loop the killer for a while, if they are good
@@smooktober7639 i was gonna say that as well but good players could have really long or really short chases based on if the killer is willing to commit to the chase lol
Id just like to say, one could easily make a system around the main gameplay/skill aspect of the game which is chases. For killers, the shorter a chase goes before a successful hit = the more points you get, for survivors the opposite. Would make it so killers that end chases quickly get paired with survivors that are able to extend chases long. You can also combine this with other things for instance, survivors might get rating on being within the terror radius of a killer but not being in a chase, while killers might gain rating for quickly finding survivors that are hiding (aka crouching, slow moving, in a locker) within their terror radius. All of this stuff should not at ALL be hard to detect and account for, because the game ALREADY does it a fair bit without it being incorporated into mmr. Kills are way less important than chases, Escaping is way less important than chases. We all instinctively know this, that a good survivor does not just press m1 on gens and powers the exit gate, and a killer doesnt just camp and oneshot people under a hook, by making the game about kills and escapes only you reward the players for doing shit that is not fun for anyone and non-interactive in general.
The biggest disconnect the devs have in this regard is not that theyre not trying to make a working mmr system, its that they dont understand what the actual fun in this game really is. Killing people isnt fun, escaping isnt fun, its ALL about the way you get there.
I mean, technically the goal of the killer is to kill and the goal of the survivor is to survive. That's why you see competitive players either hold m1 or sits under a hook, because it is the most efficient way to achieve your objective. The problem is that it's so ridiculously boring that the Legacy Meg with 5k hours in the game basement dives a Bubba and dies and then some baby killer gets her and cries about how mmr is unbalanced. I think both sides exaggerate it to an extent, but basing a system on kills and escapes when the most boring thing to do is kill and escape speaks volumes about what the goal of the game is. They said they want the game to be competitive and they're doing a phenomenal job at that and are probably going to bore the playerbase right out of the game
@@jonathanellwood2093 whenever i see the word "technically", i just kinda zone out, apologies.
While it'd be slightly harder to implement - points in regards to proper/advanced usage of your Killer's power would help too.
Like if a Huntress player hits a hatchet from halfway across the map they should be rewarded for their skill as well, just as say an Oni who dashes to the other side and gets the down. Right now there's no incentive to get better at hitting long ranged hatchets beyond personal skill motivations because neither the current MMR or current CoH meta rewards it.
@@jonathanellwood2093 actually read your comment now, completely agree.
@@DuskEalain to be fair things like these would kinda be included in the entire "end chase fast for a hit = more points" thing, since the huntress chase is technically non-existent on long range hatchets and the oni power cuts down on chase time too, but i dont see anything wrong with making mmr work different for each killer because even if mmr works the same for every killer, theres always going to be discrepancies into what killers can achieve more mmr gain for any system since the killers themselves are different. so yeah, i agree, this could easily be included and have a positive impact on matchmaking too
Not to mention with MMR they’ll never include perk builds, add ons, the map, map rng, how survivors spawn separated or together, whether there was face camping or not, how long chases last minus pallets dropped divided by the total number of pallets, the list goes on and on.
However They’ll never make this system functional because A.) they clearly don’t understand their game enough and B.) it would take way too much time.
This video was like the climax of a mystery thriller movie where the murderer was finally revealed- the puzzle pieces fell into place, and all those small hints from the past make too much sense given the full picture: to the point where you cannot unsee the reveal.
I need to watch this like 3 more times to fully digest it properly because this is just… wild.
Bit weird this but couldn't they just have a system that goes of blood points for example you could play 5 games and the game would calculate the mean of your blood points earned in the last 5 matches and put you in a bracket with people who have the same average for example if your average bloodpoints is 20k you'd come against killers who average 20k blood points there's a lot of flaws I realise but it's just an interesting thought
Lol, we did have BP-based ranks back in the day, from 1.0 until nearly 2.0. It wasn’t great. Mostly because killers naturally get way more BP than survivors, and the BP gain between killers is wild. The amount of BP you can get during a bad game of Wraith vs. a good game of Trapper is ridiculous. On the survivor side, you’d wind up in situations where survivors would actively chase down the killers to get into chases with them, meanwhile there are literally only so many BP’s you can get from doing gens. Once the gens got done, you couldn’t get any more BP’s from that entire category. Also, the rankings capped the BP rank contribution to 5k, so the skilled player who ran the killer for 5 gens would only get credit for 5k BP (aka, 5 killer stuns iirc), no BP’s for gens, and maybe no BP’s for escape. So the guy who ran the killer for 5 gens depips, while the guy who did gens and escaped would definitely pip.
Rework bhvr
they made a good point where a lot of the baby or overskilled players you get in your matches could be because their system prioritizes a fast queue for people who got a disconnect in the lobby rather than a quality one. do you think, by fixing this, that SBMM could actually work a lot better?
I agree that the MMR shouldn’t be based solely on kills and escapes, but I think Scott misinterpreted Patrick’s analogy about the hockey game (can’t believe I’m somewhat defending him lol). I think what he meant to say with the “If you take more shots, you’ll score more goals, thus winning more games and cut out the middle man” argument is that in their eyes with their system, if you loop the killer well, hook different survivors, pressure gens, be altruistic, and make the right plays it should directly lead to more wins. But obviously as players we know this is not true (especially as survivor relying on a team). Again, not saying it’s a good system but I don’t think the analogy was to say “Someone on the bench is just as good as someone doing all the work” (at least in my mind)