Hi all! This has gotten a lot more attention than I could have imagined. After going through your comments, I have come to realize there are some premises and conclusions of this theory that should have been elaborated and explained a bit more in the video. So I am pinning the elaborations here, hoping to make things clearer. 1. The Two Elden Ring premise The description of the incantation Elden Stars describes the arrival of the Elden RIng/Beast and is an Erdtree incantation. This seems to imply that the Elden Ring was sent during and is linked to the Era of the Erdtree. On the other hand, the ancient dragons era is a "prehistoric era before the Erdtree", yet they also seems to have an Elden Ring of their own, and a different looking one at that. Meanwhile, Metyr is said to be “the first shooting star” to fall upon the Landsbetween, in a similar fashion as the Elden Star which bore the Elden Ring. So from here the simplest solution would be the conclusion of two Rings, first one bore by Metyr in prehistoric time of the Ancient Dragons, and second one the bore by an Elden Star in the Age of the Erdtree of Marika. 2. "Elden Stars" is also a great counter evidence to the theory. Elden Stars is also said to be the most ancient of incantations derived from the Erdtree. Since this incantation is the most ancient one aka the first one derived from the Erdtree, and mentions the arrival of the Elden Ring, it can also imply that the Elden Ring/Beast was sent during the earliest days of the Erdtre, if not before its existence and is linked to its creation. Therefore, the Elden Ring/beast seems unlikely to have arrived near the end of the age of plenty as the video suggests This is indeed a hard one for that part of the theory. But the theory overall can still stand as long as the Ring was sent on earliest days of Erdtree and not before its creation. And Marika instead waited the war to end where the Erdtree finally "become the embodiment of Order" before she made all the changes, which is a strategically sensible thing to do. 2. Ymir and the Three Fingers are unreliable narrators I agree we cannot treat their words as facts. it’s obvious they have their own agenda and are most likely insane. But what Ymir said about the Fingers being broken was also mentioned by Gideon and the description of Lord’s Divine Fortification incantation. On the other hand, the origin story told by the Three Fingers in the base game is reinforced by Ymir’s version in the DLC. Given the context that there is limited amount of lore and revelations fromsoft can put into the DLC and they had to be efficient on what’s the best to include to tie in the story best they can, i think it makes more sense that Fromsoft is confirming the Origin story to us through Ymir, rather than simply repeating an unreliable narrator theme of the Three Fingers with such length. And considering Ymir’s goal is to become a mother of fingers, it seems more likely that he would be besmirching the mother of the fingers instead, about it being unhinged and broken. However the fingers being broken was again confirmed by other sources as well. So maybe he’s not as much of an unreliable narrator upon closer inspection, as he seemed. 3. Greater Will is too involved in this theory The presentatio of the theory does somehow seem to suggest so, so I should have elaborated more on this. I think the changes and events mentioned in this video happened not because of the Greater Will was actively interfering and making them happen but because of the new laws and order ordained by the Elden ring and the beast that is described as the LIVING incarnation of the concept of Order. Again the Elden ring is a concept that defines the world. And changes happened simply because the new ring defined the worldly differently and ordained a new order. And is the Greater Will completely passive and indifferent? We know the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will and Astel was sent to banish them underground. Unless this too is also an unreliable narrator, it would be safe to conclude the Greater Will did make his will known and interfered at times and not totally passive. Finally, there are a lot of nuances or events this video hasnt really touched on or fit in, but thats also why this will not be the last video or theory of this channel. Thank you fellow Tarnished for showing so much love on my first video!
People’s argument against point 2 is an ad hominem fallacy. Just because Ymir is sus doesn’t necessarily mean he spits lies. For 3 if we treat the greater will as essentially the Big Bang (very fromsoft thing to do) and use Occam’s razor it makes sense that nobody in the Lands Between understands the Will’s true desire nor the means of “intervention”. Astel being the Will’s ire may simply be a misattribution of intention and the “intervention” was the randomness of reality ultimately caused by the very first (and potentially only tangible) action of the Greater Will being the creation of the stars/big bang.
@@OccamsOnion Elden Stars description calls it "the" Elden Ring, not "an" Elden Ring, or a new one. Also Metyr doesn't have any golden attacks/abilities, something that we can always see with greater will's vassals, I doubt it could've ever beared the Elden Ring (Placi can still spit gold even without having a God or being a real Lord anymore) The incantation is the oldest of the Erdtree ones, not necessarily the description of it
@@ungratefulingrate1268 Godfrey is also named "First Elden Lord" while Placidusax is another that preceded him. It is true that its called "the" Elden Ring in the description, but it could be a matter of cycle. Metyr indeed does not have any golden attacks. But she was not an Elden Lord like Placidusax but instead "a shooting star", just like the Elden Star. Her lack of Gold does not necessarily imply her inablity to carry the Elden Ring, considering she is the daughter of the Greater Will who sent the Elden Ring.
@@OccamsOnion The Elden Ring is always depicted as golden and the Elden Beast (which becomes the ER) is also a super golden gold spewing beast. Also the dragons archeologically came first, we know this much. For EB idrk
The biggest problem with elden stars incantation is that it states "It is said...". Maybe that's just what Fingers want us to believe. My assumption would be that there is one elden ring, in a sense it is made up with the same parts, just re-arranged. In 2019 Announcement trailer we can see golden threads embedded into Marika's hammer after she smashes it into the ring, very similar to ones seen on the DLC trailer. Maybe she's pulling the ring from the former vessel to re-arrange it and then insert into herself. Anyway, connection between Elden Beast and Ring is very ambiguous, e.g. in Elden Lord ending the beast is slain, yet the ring, although fractured, remains. Btw, great video.
On the stone slabs in Belurat we see depictions of the Crucible. It is three tree trunks entwined. I think the Erdtree and Scadutree used to be entwined. Marika simply plucked the Erdtree from the Crucible and left the remnants (the Scadutree) to rot. She wanted the gold aspect of the Crucible without its other characteristics (the red part of the old gold).
Yes, it's the typical From soft's yin-yang philosophy. There was a Whole, but Marika defied the balance and separated light and dark. Her Erdtree can be so "pure" and "brilliant", because Scadutree is so dark and brittle. Instead of Gwyn stopping the natural cycles of age of light changing into the age of dark, and back again, she simply divided the holistic Crucible and hid the half she didn't need, likewise destroying the natural balance and creating the stagnation in the process. Though I absolutely don't believe there were more elden rings like he says in the video, that's just complete guesswork with zero evidence, and it's extremely unlikely. We can literally change how the elden ring looks in the endng, just like Marika did once. Just because the version of ancient dragons looked different it doesn't mean it was actually another elden ring.
The scadutree is exactly what its name suggest. It's just the shadow of the erdtree. Everything there is a shadow of something that exists in the lands between
@@zachariahsmith9130 but it *is* the lands between, it's just the center of the continent veiled by marika. The erdtree is a parasite either way, the shadow tree *is* the og great tree of the setting. Hell even decaying as it is, it still produces sap unlike the erdtree. Between marika having messmer purge the hornset + her hiding the whole region, there just isnt anyone left in game to tell its' story proper. It's an unreliable narrator with scattered item descriptions, but what little there is makes that much clear atleast ^^
I just wanted to say, you say that Metyr never received any messages from the greater will, but the staff of the great beyond says "the mother recieved signs from the greater will", which means she received messages for a time. but at a certain point it seems she was abandoned. its very interesting thinking about what could have caused the greater will to abandon her
It says in the intro to Elden Ring that the war that was The Shattering came to a stand still and thus led to the Greater Will abandoning the Lands Between since no lord arose from the war
I think "the greater will" was the big bang. That bloke says in the dlc "we are all truly stardust" which is something Joni Mitchell said at woodstock, that I've known a bajillion physicists to lean on while i was studying, because we are all made from "the same stuff" from the big bang. So the "one great" in this context that was then "fractured" would be the greater will, and in my headcanon metyr was one of many many astral bodies sent hurtling from the greater will. We already know astral bodies have sentience from the moons, the astel, etc etc. I think Metyr was likely a liar who last "communed" with the greater will while hurtling through space a *long* time ago, similarly i read the frenzied flame as a "big crunch" scenario. But thats just me
I've been thinking, that Marika seduced the hornsent with promises of divine power, secrets she learned from the Fingers, but when they built the gate of divinity, she betrayed them, and took the divine power for herself.
The tribe to which Marika belonged was shamans with connection with the spirits but they were not warriors nor is it known to be violent people. The old woman calls Marika Traitor, surely she had to work for them pretending that she was loyal for a long time waiting to win her trust and lower their guard. An army as great as Messmer does not appear out of nowhere, it was surely a plan that took decades.
I've been thinking the same, because it would explain something that puzzles me: why the inquisitors have golden order-like spells. She was also called basically a "prostitute" (with other words lol) by the Hornsent old lady, perhaps there's some strange relationships Marika had. This would explain also why in the talisman depicting Godfrey it's said that he accepted lordship "stoically". Why would you accept stoically something, if not because you know that something messed up was going on? Perhaps Marika already had children as part of her vengeance quest (Messmer-Melina)?
@@kindasus3749 For the bit about Godfrey, I think the "stoically" wording just refers to his transformation from his Warrior personality to his Elden Lord personality. We know from the description of his Axe that when he took the vow to become Elden Lord he resolved to alter his behavior and conduct from that of a bloodthirsty berserker to one of a calm ruler. "Stoic" is basically the perfect word to describe Godfrey's personality as Elden Lord, so it seems to me that it's referring to his suppression of his violent tendencies.
I don’t think that there essentially need to be two Elden Rings, I think the previous Elden Ring of Placidusax’s and his consort God’s order are simply the previous iteration of the Order. We know even in the current age that new Runes in the form of Mending Runes can not only created by mortals (non-gods) but also inserted to the Elden Ring to make new concepts/law to manifest in the world. I also think that the Elden Beast isn’t some separate entity that represents the Elden Ring, rather he IS the Elden Ring. The description of Elden Stars did say this: “It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.” Overall solid theory and banger video. I subscribed 🤗❤
Hi there! Thanks for the sub and the comment! Now realized I should have included the reasoning that led to the two elden ring premise in the video but i am glad i get the chance to bring up now! The time of the Ancient dragons is said to be a "prehistoric era before the erdtree". And since Elden Stars, which describe the arrival of elden ring/beast, is an Erdtree incantation, it led me to think that the elden star could not have arrived in the ancient dragons' era, as there wasnt an Erdtree yet at the time. Therefore the elden ring engraving in the Farum Azula could likely be a different and earlier ring which arrived through a different mean, and we just so happen to have Metyr who is said to be the very first shooting stars that landed in the landsbetween, in simlar fashion as the elden stars. So it led to the conclusion in the video that Metyr could have bore the first ring but was abandoned by the Greater Will together with it after things derailed. The sudden arrival of a new ring(implying new laws and order) also make the drastic changes near the end of the war and the sudden founding of Golden Order much more explainable too. I think the Elden Beast has a lot of agency to itself considering its also a boss we face hence i talked about it like a different entity to the ring and it was also likely the one who hung up Marika inside the tree for shattering the Ring, but I agree that the Elden Beast is essentially the Elden Ring.
@@eazyelof4283 but the elden beast casts elden stars in the final fight, so I think the incantation must have been created, at the latest, the same time the beast arrived; or when the beast itself was created.
@@wqeerwqeer1375 It can be safely assumed that all incantations are mere imitations, methods of reproducing and channeling other powerful entities' innate powers. The Fire Serpent spell even points out that the incantation was given to Messmer's soldiers so they could wield the flame, since they couldn't use the actual legitimate flames of Messmer. Messmer doesn't cast "Messmer Flame Incantations", he just has the flame powers innately. Elden Beast doesn't cast the Elden Stars incantation, that's just something it can do, and the incantation would've been created to conjure up that same power.
@@RicAdbur True but it's also stated by Varre that the fingers were defective and Metyrs descriptions confirm she was abandoned. I don't think he is right about Marika but probably is about the fingers.
This perfectly aligns with st. Trina's "Godhood would be Miquella's prison". It also hints at the origins of Radagon, and wether or not Radagon and Marika were always the same person, or were at some point made to be the same person.
I think it’s interesting to consider that the fusing of Radagon and Marika into one being may have been a punishment employed by the Elden Beast, but the only issue with this idea is that Marika herself has a quote where she seems to acknowledge that Radagon is “yet to become me”, implying that she somehow knew in advance that they would end up becoming a single entity at some point
@@kmoney7862those two things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be nice to get some answers as to how Radagon and St. Trina came to be. I think the most likely option is that an Empyrean can physically manifest separate pieces of their personality, at the very least one other entity of the opposite gender. Personally, i think Marika did this with Radagon before she ever met Godfrey, which is where Messmer and Melina came from. I think her two fingers found this distasteful tho (it’s basically incest) and forced her to marry Godfrey and send Radagon to marry Renalla. This would be in line with themes that GRRM wrote about in the ASoIaF books. Eventually tho, Marika exiled Godfrey and the Two Fingers only choice was to put Radagon on her as a watchdog. I think that Maliketh had originally served that purpose as her shadow, but for whatever reason he wasn’t able to do the job anymore. This makes sense when we consider how Blaidd couldn’t control Ranni. Maybe she just got too powerful and the only entity who could control her was her exact equal. Sorry for the book but these theories are really fascinating to me lol
Considering that Marika is of the Shaman people, and the reason they were targeted by the Hornsent empire is that "their flesh is said to meld harmoniously with others" I think it's reasonable to speculate that the greater will simply observed this trait in their new puppet-regent, and decided to graft a more slavishly loyal distaff counterpart to her. Considering that Radagon's red hair seems to mark him as Of The Crucible, it's also possible that he was even... created by the moment of her ascension, the divine gate did seem to be at least in part a Hornsent holy site, so its power being used to bring someone to godhood could well have invoked an embodiment of that essence, the raw, chaotic, unpredictable energy of life and evolution. Of course this wouldn't really explain the internalised self-loathing he had for all things Crucible, as signified by his hatred of his own red hair, maybe the greater will sunk those gaslighting hooks in real early for the fresh new mind.
@@leviadragon99 Radagon's red hair is more likely of giant relation (Giant's red braid), and I would say the hatred of the crucible-touched is more of Marika's thing. of course, red gold has been linked to the crucible before, as is the case with the crucible knight's armors, so I do not disagree with that. I do, however, agree that the fusion of Radagon to Marika was likely a punishment, as Marika does seem to dislike Radagon in the dialogue Melina shares with us. And also, her favorite child was not a child of Radagon, although that could be coincidental. Also, i would like to point out that all of Marika's children are cursed (save Godwyn, although perhaps his cruel fate was his curse), but none of Radagon's children with Renalla are, perhaps implying that Radagon and Marika were conjoined after Marika was cursed? Purely speculation, of course.
@@davidmingle5910 you might be onto something there, perhaps the greater will observed that the empyreans this puppet god was providing were less than ideal for its purposes, and decided on a workaround, quite devious actually. Though it's worth noting, the Omen children were not in fact cursed per se, they were viewed as a curse by the Golden Order, but they simply represented the rival power of the crucible, the same power that Marika ultimately drew upon by using the Hornsent's divine gate, so it's hardly surprising that her children presented wild, random Mutations, in line with said source.
Count Ymir: "Metyr and the Two Fingers were all crazy and broken from the start." Also Count Ymir: "I'm going to *become* Metyr, surely I can avoid going crazy. I'm just built different." As it happens, Ymir was *not* built different and, in fact, was "defective" from the start.
@@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only One thing does not exclude the other. Ymir being unbalanced does not mean he doesn't have knowledge to share. He is not a useless or filler character; his quest contributes significantly to the game's lore. After all, all the characters in the game have loose screws.
I kinda wish we could get definitive answers to some of these questions, but at the same time, the theorycrafting with the community is some of the most fun shit I've ever experienced.
Nice theory. I think the seduction and betrayal is literal in this sense. Marika convenes with the two fingers, which were abandoned by the greater will at this point, and they realize they can use her to force a reconnection with the greater will. They offer a deal. "Become our new god (our new puppet) and we will grant you vengeance" Marika didnt realize the full implications at the time, so she went with it. The two fingers, with their former comnection to the greater will and the elden ring could probably have pointed her in the direction of the previous "god" which wouldve been the last host of the elden ring. She seduces him, kills him, takes the threads, becomes a god-puppet, and for a time, before the elden beast had arrived with the new elden ring, she had freedom. Thats when messmerr and melina came to be, flawed because they were children of marika and radagon, who was marikas other self, a result from what the hornsent did to marika the "saint". This also probably explains why shes derranged but regardless, she uses messmer and melina to aid in taking revenge, but when the elden beast arrives, and the golden order is established, eventually they had to go, being relics from a different age technically. Marika's bonded in golden chains, wamts to break them, forms a plan, shatters the elden ring, and then we come along. All part of the plan.
I think the Crucible is the Order before the Golden Order, during the Age of Plenty, at the time when Placidusax reigned and when the Erdtree was the Great Tree. I believe the Crucible was the law of the land, survival of the fittest, evolution, and the ancient dragons were the pinnacle of this order. Godfrey himself once followed the crucible, and his form before Marika tamed him, Hoarah Loux, seemed to embody survival of the fittest. The land, the gods, the tree, and the orders all seem to be inherently linked together. When Marika removed the rune of death, all that had to go somewhere. All manner of death washes up in the land of shadow; the land itself is linked to death, and it too was shrouded and sealed away by Marika at the birth of her new order. The part of the Great Tree that was also linked to Destined Death was also sealed away in this land, as the Scadutree, as they are not really separate things. The Erdtree is the Great Tree with the rune of death removed: the Golden Order. Now I say all that, simply to lay the groundwork that the Erdtree is the Great Tree, just with Destined Death removed. So, I don't think the Elden Stars description places the arrival of the Elden Beast during Marika's reign. After all, the Elden Beast is described as the true form of the Elden Ring. And the symbol of the Crucible is obviously the Elden Ring, just in a different form; a different Order, with Destined Death in place. Placidusax was also referred to as Elden Lord, an obvious nod to the fact it was consort to a god that was the vessel of the Elden Ring. Very cool video. I greatly enjoyed watching it. That is the one detail I disagree with you on though.
The Crucible is basically the Behemoth mythos. Behemoth is a beast from the biblical Book of Job, and is a form of the primeval chaos-monster created by God at the beginning of creation (source:wiki). And the crucible knight of the DLC Devonia take the form of a behemoth, and the knight was in quest of the origin of the crucible "Devonia is the longest-serving of the Crucible Knights and is known for embarking on a solitary quest to uncover the origin of the Crucible left the lands of the Erdtree alone". Devonia looks like "Devonian", it's a prehistoric period.
a little of topic, but its something i dont see anyone ever talk about. but the rune of death and destined death arent the same thing. they are never mentioned as interchangable words. the rune of death is only ever reffered to when talking about the power removed from the elden ring. where as destined death is the gloam eyed queens power. before marika took the rune of death it was part of the elden ring. malakith took destined death from the gloam eyed queen, marika then gave death rune to him and sent him to farum azule to protect it. 2 different powers. bit off topic but it always bugs me how no one talk about this
@@davidmorcombe6779 The finger reader in the roundtable confirms that the rune of death is in fact destined death. they are 2 names for the same thing.
Eden Beast came long before Marika and The Erdtree lost its eternal status and sent out seeds when Marika Shattered the Elden Ring, also bringing the age of Plenty to and end. Also i believe the dragons eternal life is stated to come from their time-twisting scales, i'd argue the law Placidusax tampered with wasnt death or immortality, it was time. I think he just paused Ancient Dragon aging. id argue that Death wasnt sealed at all during Placidusax's time even, as we see SO many dead bestmen in the walls and floors as well as dead dragons, as well as the ancient dragons creating dragon communion which is practiced by killing the "lowborn" drakes and eating their hearts.
When they talk about the betrayal, could it be that Marika was actually the only successful creation of a “saint” using the jars? The Hornsent believed they had made the perfect creation like they hoped, but she turned on them?
I agree. She was a success, but she may not have known it the whole time. After defeating Messmer, the Grandam’s name changes to Empyrean Grandam, which some take to mean that she may have raised Marika after her successful sainthood, because she certainly isn’t an Empyrean. I think Marika came of age in Belurat after the pot, ascended to godhood and created gold and shadow by splitting the crucible into the Erdtree and Scadutree. It would be during this time that she married Godfrey and had the omen sons under the aspect of the crucible and Godwyn under the aspect of gold. Now, Godfrey is taking over the Lands Between and somehow the Gloam-Eyed Queen fits into everything here, because the Golden Order is created when she is defeated by Maliketh and the rune of death is removed from the Elden Ring. Could the Gloam-Eyed Queen have been ruling in Leyndell? Is that why the sky is purple in the trailer? Where exactly was the Elden Ring at the time? Not sure; but Godfrey wasn't sent away until after the war, which then opened up the space for Radagon and then Messmer. This tells me that there was a lot of time between Marika's ascension and Messmer's crusade. We know from the minor erdtree incantation in Shaman Village that Marika did come back to visit after reaching godhood, because she left a secret healing spell of gold without Order in honor of her people and left her braid as well. The statue in Messmer’s room shows her wearing a braided belt when holding him, indicating that she was being worshipped during her time as his mother. So, that would be a pretty big betrayal: create your own saint, ascend them into divinity, support them through civil wars, and then have them destroy your sacred grounds (the crucible), hide away your land from the sun, abandon you to a trapped realm, and commit genocide through a fiery crusade. Ouch.
So in a sense, marika threw a revolution after plax hid away to lick his wounds from their fight with bayle (probably trying to contact the greater will himself when metyr failed them based off plax’s pose). Only for the greater will to imperialized them again based off a petty and fleeting deal for revenge. With my own theory being that the gloam eyed queen was potentially the empyean of plax’s reign, specifically charged with returning things back to the crucible. So when the crucible was plugged up by the erdtree and destined death removed (presumably as a way for marika to protect those she cared about, which it’s inevitable failure caused her to become cold and distant as a coping mechanism) it annoyed gloam since they made her existence pointless. Only for her to be vanquished by malikath. With Melina’s gloam eye either due to her being possessed by gloam similar to malenia with the rot god. Or the eye is actually a iris of occultation similar to messmer iris of grace. But rather than sealing a abyssal serpent (and potentially enforce obedience like what we do to jolan) it hides you from the grace of gold and makes you exempt from any charges to its rules which is how she survives the frenzy flame ending. Since the /kill all command didn’t apply to her.
Oh shit iris of occultation is actually a really clever observation. Thematically it also makes sense that the younger sister would have to opposite eye to messmer's.
Melina didn't burn with the Frenzied Flame because she's basically a spirit ash just like Torrent (i'm sure af part of her ashes are inside Torrent's thing
@@son_of_the_heavymetal1142spirits can die to the frenzied flame though, thats why torrent flees and refuses to come out in the abyssal woods, and why his summoning ring is badly damaged at the frenzied flame ending. Melina cant be a spirit otherwise she wouldve died alongside torrent in the frenzied flame ending, Melina is something more unknown to us.
This is all makes sense, that's why St Trina says that godhood would be a prison for Miquella because the Greater Will will just send down another Elden Beast to turn him into a puppet thus cannot achieve what he's trying to achieve
Also the fact that Miquella had shed so much of himself by that time in an attempt to rid himself of the imperfections of his mother, that he even cleaved from himself St. Trina. And she was basically the parts of him that would even know what his new age of kindness would entail. The bits of him that we eventually fight are basically what he became when he'd thrown away even his kindness and compassion, and that's what the Gate choose to elevate. He had always had the ability to bend people to his will but it seems he at least tried to use his powers in a positive manner, then after he failed both his attempts to cure Malenia and his attempt to either revive or finally grant an end to his brother, he seems to have just snapped and gone full mustache twirling evil mastermind, coercing and controlling people left and right in his quest to become a god.
Not if the greater will only cares about "golden order" and not the nature of the order. The decline of Marika's Golden order was down to her hubris and treachery. Miquellas order is far more mindlessly selfless, yet still based in order, so even if it is a prison, it's one that Miquella was aware of and clearly embraced. It would seem...
I really, really like a lot of what you have to say. My theory was that Marika performed the original sin, the seduction and the betrayal beyond the gate of divinity by killing the greater will. If you look closely at the divine gate you'll see Hornsent bodies on the main structure and outer layer but the foundation has no Horned bodies at all. I think that's very telling. So Marika's story begins in the Shaman village, where her people are rendered into a fleshy mass conglomerates. The divine gate construction was begun using the flesh of Shamans because of their flesh melded "harmoniously". Their inherent spiritual aptitude made for the ideal medium to construct the Divine Gate. Enir Elim stinks of the tower of Babel. Likely GW and the fingers saw it and the gates construction as heresy. So they name Marika empyrean, lines by Ymir about Marika being guided by the two fingers. Show that she was endorsed by the Fingers and the new Crimson/Cerulean Seed talismans depict the erd tree seed between two fingers. They offered Marika godhood and the means to have her vengeance in the Erdtree. In her powergrab as empyrean she finishes the Gate with the dead of Hornsent, seduces and kills the GW, plucks her rune from its corpse. From this point on, the fingers are "abandoned" and it's a very, very long time before anyone notices. Ena tells us it takes tens of thousands of "moons" for the fingers to commune with the GW. In this foggy period that follows Marika has 5 cursed children. Messmer, Melina, Margit, Morgott and Godwyn. Mostly with Godfrey. Eventually the Fingers suspect what Marika did and name empyreans to succeed her. This is where things start to kick off, godskin hunt, cleansing crusade and eventually the shattering. And then I keep typing more paragraphs that no one will ever read lol.
Messmer and Melina are not Godfrey's children, they are the twins born under Marika and Radagon, likely her first born children before she ever meets Godfrey. The Greater Will is an Outer God and likely abandoned the Lands Between when Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Remember, she used Messmer to get revenge on the Hornsent *before* she ascended to godhood, as their bodies are used to build the Divinity Gate for her ascension.
@@LexysamaIllustrations the dlc story trailer explicitly says he genocide against the hornsent was after her ascension. So, you're gonna have to rethink your headcanon a little.
I still believe that the shadowlands were once connected where the large center ocean is now. And the scadutree always makes me think there’s 2. I almost feel like the diagonal tree that’s being suffocated of its sap is the crucible and in the rite that Marika performed, the twisted tree started suffocating the crucible of its gold and transferred to what we know as the Erdtree. Then Marika veiled the shadowlands from the rest of the world and washed her hands. She stripped the grace of gold from the natives of the shadowlands. To be fair, the Hornsent turned Marika’s people into pots.
The twisted tree looks remarkably like the sealing tree used to dowse Enir Ilim in shadow. I'm absolutely certain the lower arc or Rune Arc is a major detail in Marika's lore. We see the horsent using all kinds of rune arc incantations, and the biggest difference between the dragon's elden ring and Marika's is the addition of the lower arc. Whatever Marika did, it has to have something to do with stealing something from the hornsent and using it as a mending rune on the old elden ring.
I mean, iirc, Crucible can refer to crown sprouting, where a stump grows fresh sprouts from its top, and we know that the Erdtree is a [botanical] grafted scion (a new plant grafted onto rootstock, like a lot of citrus trees), and crown sprouting is an ideal time for grafting onto an extensive root system... Most likely, the Crucible was the period of crown sprouting after the Great Tree was destroyed and Placidusax's god fled, leaving a period where everyone was trying to shape the next age by controlling the next Great Tree, all the while their forms were being influenced by dozens of different sprouts, suckers, and scions... And Marika won by killing all but the Erdtree, only to accidentally blight the roots themselves with her son's still living corpse while allowing the Erdtree to burn down till just the faded grace it once shone with was left... The strangler could be either a sucker that she missed, or perhaps Godwyn's blight manifests differently in a land anathema to it, where spirits exist without flesh... Perhaps it's simply that her hatred of the Crucible didn't extend to the dragons and beast folk, so she merely banished their trees to that side of the veil.
This video made me think that since Placidusax was the previous lord of the Elden ring, Marika likely persuaded or created Bayle to attempt to kill Placidusax so she could attempt to harvest the means to create a new ring from his. That head might be the fifth head of Placidusax, which I believe is unaccounted for. He had five to start, he still has two attatched, Bayle has two dead ones still attatched to his back, so this could be the final head, which contained the golden threads.
A lot if this games lore can be understood via a understanding of our myths, religions, and from what I am seeing neoplatonism/ vedanta traditions. All is in constant state of being, proceeding, and returning to the one. That multiplicity is a grand illusion and emanates from the one. The one does not create itself but all subsequent things emanate off of it out of necessity.
Something to note about the Scadutree is that it was almost certainly created by Marika and imposed upon the people of the Realm of Shadow. Scadutree fragments are frequently found in front of Marika statues, and the item description says they are collected by people of the Erdtree. The only example I can think of of Scadutree fragments being collected by the Hornsent culture is the church in the Abyssal Woods, but since there is no Messmer presence there and the Shadow Realm Blessing mechanic exists to encourage exploration, I'm going to say that's a case of gameplay and story segregation. Also, Messmer soldier equipment is marked with the emblem of the Scadutree.
I agree, perhaps there was the great-tree/crucible (primordial erdtree) , which was perhaps burned (leyndell ash, erdtree dew no longer being obtainable, disdain for fire in erdtree culture) or otherwise disposed of/altered, and then changed into/replaced by the erdtree, and subsequently, the scadutree. Of course, im just spitballing here.
I presumed that the Scudutree was created by Marika to cut off the realm of shadow from the rest of the Lands Between, just as the thorns do with the Tower. There are even what look like sheets draping out from the top of the tree which I imagine symbolise this shroud. Also, the Scadutree seems to look like it is actually two tree, and the dominant one is seeping sap with the light of the Marika's order. I do wonder if the second tree is the original tree of the Crucible that Marika has supplanted by the Scadutree.
@davidmingle5910 I'm pretty sure the ash in Leyndell is from a recent catastrophe, likely when Bernahl's maiden used the giants flame. The ash is everywhere in Leyndell, which means it post dates every era of the city.
@@Qarth56 The Shadow lands were part of the Lands Between, you are right there, Rau ruins are part of all those ruins we found in the lands between even have the golems, also how would messmer's troops will go to the lands of shadow if they were in the state they are now? Miquella needed mogh and die/morph in the coccoon to can travel to the lands of shadow, how such army will move so easily ? obviously before you could just travel there normally.
You could argue "the one" is just a way to describe smth that had the potential to become life, like the first stage of the Crucible, where everything was still blended together
this is what I love about the dlc, it takes you back to bloodborne's main lore question: is it just a dream, or reality? In this case, are these outer god's fanboys and fangirls just high on substances, or is there something real to it?
Hyetta is quite literally a blind follower of the fingers, while Ymir presents himself as a scholar who studies the stars and has directly peered into void where it’s quite obvious the Greater Will (and perhaps other outer Gods) reside. True he gains some egotistical madness where he thinks he can supplant himself as the mother of fingers in place of Metyr, but it is obvious he is more knowledgeable about what’s going on in the world than Hyetta from a scholarly standpoint. There are plenty of insane and heavily mislead individuals in Elden Ring due to the whole world being broken, so we have to divine some truth from unreliable sources. The one thing about Hyetta and Ymir both presenting the Greater Will as the original creator of the universe is that they both reached that conclusion through different means. Although I suppose it depends if Ymir learned this from studying the stars or from learning it from Metyr, which would ultimately be the same as Hyetta learning from interpreting the words of the three fingers. The Greater Will is the only entity proposed to be the creator of the universe which does make it the only known candidate (aside from perhaps some other outer God that people are just attributing to the Greater Will)
Great analysis and certain Marika is the catalyst for all these problems in the golden order. Another lens to view Elden Ring through necropolitics & the monarchy impact on its society
I think the creators deliberately constructed mysteries and one of them is whatever Marika pulls out whatever she does. It goes unexplained but it adds so much margin to the theory crafting!
One problem here is that she isn't pulling out "threads" at all. If you look carefully she is actually pulling out nearly invisible cloth. She is also holding cloth above her head, possibly the cloth she uses to veil the shadowed lands. Think of the strange fabric the black knife assassins use, the fact that she is always depicted with a very deliberately included length of cloth yet doesn't have a similar cloth with her when we see her in person, meaning it must be an important symbol instead. If you can't see it, try to imagine you're looking at some sort of 'invisibility cloak'.
@@crisunderwood8110 I'm sorry, I want to answer your question, but I'm reeling from the confident delivery of the absolutely gargantuan leap to 'that's the body of the previous elden ring user' when there isn't even a general consensus on whether it's godskin, fabric, or a snake! XD I'm not even basing my statement about it being cloth on symbolism or whatever, I'm saying it's cloth because that is literally what is shown on screen and my eyeballs can see. Look closely, pretend they're grabbing a fine, sheer fabric with a golden sheen. They've of course created the 3D model in such a way that it's not so much sheer as completely invisible except for the reflected light, but even then the visible bits only make sense, as well as the grip, if it is a piece of fabric being pulled out. Think of dark velvet and how it's the edges of the folds that catch the light and shimmer in a lighter shade; this fabric functions similarly.
@@Dankmemeslover69 Those are the times I'm talking about. That and in the cinematics. Seeing her model 'in the flesh' as opposed to the statues of her. In the statues she always has that big, dramatic arcing loop of cloth behind her, it's a consistently depicted element. But when we see her body both places there is nothing resembling the big cloth piece on or near it. From this we can draw a fairly solid conclusion that it is either symbolic of something (the reach of her power or something nebulous like that) or that it is a reference to something she did or used that those living in the Lands Between would be familiar with. Typical religious figure depiction stuff.
Could the body she takes the threads from be Metyr? Maybe Marika used the finger slayer blade herself? Stole the power to be the receiver of the greater will? But permanently garbled and warped the signal in the process? Idk, just a stab in the dark
By definition, a crucible is literally a ceramic or metal container in which metals or other substances may be melted or subjected to very high temperatures. So the Hornsent tried to recreate this with the jars
1 : a vessel of a very refractory (see REFRACTORY entry 1 sense 3) material (such as porcelain) used for melting and calcining a substance that requires a high degree of heat 2 : a severe test He's ready to face the crucible of the Olympics. 3 : a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development … conditioned by having grown up within the crucible of Chinatown … -Tom Wolfe His character was formed in the crucible of war.
Never realized that, so the Marika's Elden Ring era being born from the ashes of the Primordial Crucible takes a whole new sense. And that metaphor reapeats itself with the Erdtree being born from the Primordial Tree !
It also used to be used to refer to crown sprouting iirc, so it could also be the time between the Great Tree dying, and the Erd Tree becoming the only scion grafted to the stump and rootstock. A period of potentially hundreds of sprouts, each a slightly different interpretation of what the natural order and forms should be.
not super sure about that, the word 'crucible' is used very commonly in literature to evoke the idea idea of chaotic transformation, or the instability that occurs during the creation of something new. Not just 'being a container'. It could be true, and its certainly a cool coincidence, but it seems to me like a very circumstantial connection.
Correct. Farum Azula has depictions of an ancient Elden Ring, with a different but recognizable design, and Placidusax is named Elden Lord. The Elden Ring (and Beast) has been held by previous Orders before the Golden Order. Metyr probably instructed Marika through the Fingers to seize it, in the hopes of contacting The Greater Will.
The greater will sent a star bearing a beast into the lands between, which would later become the elden beast. The beast most likely changes to go along with the age/order it represents. When Marika takes the threads you hear the elden beast in the background, probably taking on its new form.
@@spacefaringyoshi so you are making the assumption that the elden beast and the elden ring have always been the same thing, but we dont know that. it is entirely possible that the elden beat came after and merged with it or whatever. we actually know nothing of the elden rings history before marika reign. we dont even know if the edlen ring we see on farum azula is the same one, they look similar sure, and we know the ring can be changed so it could be. but it could also be a completely different ring. elden ring takes a lot of inspiration from Christianity, and one of the biggest things Christianity/catholotism have done is whenever the moved into a spot and took over, they adopted tradition/beliefs of the previous religions of the area. Its definitely not out of the realm of possibility that this happened here, that the greater will didnt have the control it has now until marika ascended to godhood, and when all that happened instead of just removing the old they replaced it with their own versions of it all. meaning the elden beast came when she ascended and a new ring was created or the old absorbed into the new regime.
the crucible ring was a ring made of runes. It was most definitely the previous Elden ring. Sure, it might not have been called like that, but if Placidusax was an Elden Lord, then the symbol praised by the inhabitants of his city was the Elden Ring It may be true however that the Elden beast came after, either in an attempt to restore order from within after the fingers lost guidance, or to punish / control Marika and stop her actions. We might even theorize that Marika was the one who severed the connection between the fingers and the Greater Will, and that she only played along after "reprogramming" them.
Note that the first civilisation in Elden Ring... that of the beastmen in Farum Azula, back when it was still located in Caelid, and when Placidusax was "in power" they did not revere 2 fingers, or 3 fingers. The revered a hand. 5 fingers. The whole, 2 and 3 fingers combined. You can find many depictions of a hand in Farum Azula. That deity broken into 2 fingers and 3 fingers, well, it matches how broken and dysfunctional Marika's family is. It matches the erdtree and scadutree being apart. It matches how broken and shattered the world overall is, with for example living beings that have limbs from other living beings grafted onto them. And there is no game ending where the 2 fingers and the 3 fingers together can be mended and everything healed. The player is just yet another Marika, continueing the unhinged path of either of these fingers.
The first elden ring's age of plenty is a mirror of an eternal heavenly life, which ended with the original sin (marika taking a fruit from the crucible tree). Its a retelling of the adam and even story
I think the body Marika took the golden threads from was her own. Just like Miquella was shedding parts of, and eventually his whole body to become a God, Marika did the same.
@@GoulaLegameryeah probably the geq; a snake god and mother to messmer. Marika traveled thru litteral hell, killed snake god of death, and used its elden ring to become a god in her home world.
@@curtisfarley6558 could be melina/gloam eye queen's serpent form, since her followers and brother are serpentine- the threads being marika taking the rune of death from her to complete the golden order and separate the lands between from the shadowlands. Also could be why in the frenzy ending, melina has the same blinded right eye as the snake after she reunites with destined death & becomes the gloam eye queen again.
I really loved this video! Yes there were a few plot holes and a lot of assumption but i think it tells a very compelling story. However one point not touched upon is who the God of the previous order is (to whom Placidusax owed fealty). I saw a video (i can't remember where) that theorized the entity that Marika drew the golden threads from was a serpent of some form and the comparison was striking after you see it. You only see half of it's head but she's drawing the threads from it's eye (which seems to be where divinity is stored according to Ansbach referring to Miquella's eye, also based on the Sore/Scarseals, Messmer's eye and Shabriri Grapes) It being pale and white could also have correlation to the Base Serpent mentioned in things surrounding Messmer. I think this Base Serpent could have been the God of the previous order and Placidusax was their Lord. Marika killed the Base Serpent in order to claim Godhood (maybe with the black flame or with a black knife as she is said to be related to the Black Knife assassins). This is why she was so fearful of the Base Serpent being reborn in Messmer, it may also why the Base Serpent in Messmer seems so deteriorated and decomposed, because it's an imortal creature killed through ungodly means (Like Godwyn). The base serpent could also have some relation Eiglay and the God Devouring serpent but I'm not sure about that.
I think there's one puzzle piece still missing, that puzzle piece being Radagon. Radagon is Marika, but it seems he might not always have been her. His red hair betrays ancestry with the Giants, rather than the Numen. We know he first spent time as Rennalas husband before becoming Marika's Lord consort and at that time, he appears to have been a separate entity (because if Marika spent all day in Raya Lucaria banging the queen, I think someone would have noticed her absence in Leyndell). My theory on the matter would be: 1: Radagon was likely a demi-god and child of the Fell God, possibly an empyrean. 2: The Greater Will directly took possession of him, elevating him to godhood, which is why the children of Rennala are demi-gods. 3: The Greater Will sought to remove all influence of the previous Elden Ring, thus ousting Godfrey and the Tarnished. 4: Radagon was sent to Leyndell so that the next Lord Consort to Marika would be one of Order as the Greater Will understands it. 5: Their children are born cursed, as both Marika and Radagon are vessels of the Greater Will, making their union an incestuous one. 6: Marika and Radagon merge. We do not know the exact point in time this happens. Them being one and the same is not commonly known, even religious scholars such as Goldmask and Miriel were not aware. We also know at the very least that their children still knew them as different people, as young Miquella gifted the Triple Rings of Light and Discus of Light incantations to his father Radagon, and was given Radagons Ring of Light as thanks. Personally, I believe that this merger may only have happened during the Shattering, with Radagon doing everything in his power to preserve Order, possibly going so far as to forcefully combine with Marika, which would ironically echo her fate as a Shaman. The main issue with that theory is that Messmer is a headache for the timeline. He is said to be an elder brother to Radahn, maybe even Marikas first-born and yet he has Radagons signature red hair. But if Marika was not with Radagon before Godfrey and the Tarnished were driven out, how would this have happened? Is he a bastard child of Marika and Radagon who was conceived before or while Godfrey was Marikas Lord Consort? Or is Messmer's red hair not indicative of Radagon and maybe the heritage of another giant-aligned character who we do not know of?
A very nice theory, really liked it. I'm so-what believer, that Marika takes "golden threads" from the dead snake, not a dragon and you didn't mentioned GEQ that surely connected to the Destined Death, but I hope I'll answer on my questions with your new videos. If you are correct, that Marika is not legitimate, it's a big shame that we didn't receive it as a bold statement as "Marika is Radagon". So many unhinged theories, so many unhigned children...
i don't really understand what the word legitimate means here , u can take power and became the king without any real legitimacy she planned her ascension to the top and it worked out now who think she was legitimate to do that or not have close to no importance
@@GoulaLegamer For me, it's important to know NPCs' motivations. Marika's, the GW's, maybe Radagon's in extend. If Marika was legitimate i.e. chosen by the GW's, then Elden Beast is a protector and after the Shuttering - Marika got punished. The GW's was betrayed and Marika changed her mind through time from "yes, I will be a God to the GW" to "no, I will destroy what the GW created". If Marika was not legitimate, then Elden Beast is a watchman, Marika was always in a danger zone and after the Shuttering the GW had enough and simply 'arrested' her. The GW got played around, and Marika always had a plan to screw the GW over. Just some speculation on my part, but for me it is a significant "what-if" moment that I would love to avoid, but alas, no clarity from Miyazaki...
@@snowpingvin1396 As a note, the Shadows are assigned to Marika and Ranni in case of treachery. Ranni is the one who doesn't want to be involved with the Golden Order. Given Marika successfully betrayed Maliketh, who is guarding Destined Death, and then there is Ranni's orchestration to have Black Knife Assassins go after Godwyn as the safest option for a soul sacrifice while she sacrifices her body to separate herself from the material realm. The Black Knife Assassins are Numen women who are close to Marika.
Great video. You made some very compelling observations and drew what I believe are reasonable conclusions from them. I'm looking forward to your next videos to come. One idea I'd like to bring up is in regards to the motive(s) behind Marika's decision to destroy Belurat and the Hornsent. While that certainly seems to be one aspect of it, I'm not convinced she did it purely for revenge. That feels too simplistic and obvious to me. The type of conclusion that just about everyone is going to initially come to if they've been paying even just a little bit of attention. I'm not sure we can count out the possibility that she was originally aligned with the Hornsent in some fashion and partook in the practice of sacrificing her own people with the goal of ascending to godhood. This is just one possibility based on the info, or lack thereof, we're given unless there is a crucial piece of evidence against it that I'm not aware of. Then the reason, or one of the reasons, for ultimately betraying the Hornsent could be that they no longer had a place within the new Golden Order due to how ingrained into their society the Crucible was. However, this act would not have been looked favorably upon Marika as Belurat and Enir-Illim would have still been considered sacred even during the age of plenty. Therefore, she had Messmer take the fall for her. We can take these next observations with a grain of salt but I've also noticed some possible real world parallels between Belurat/Enir-Illim and Babylon/Tower of Babel. One of those parallels being the Assyrian king Sennacherib's siege and destruction of Babylon being considered sacrilege among many Assyrians. Side note: Along with the Enir-Illim-Tower of Babel connection, the ancient ruins of Rauh has a striking resemblance to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
a theory: Radagon is actually an embodyment of the Greater Will, trough Marika, but he is no Marika, he is the personification of the Greater Will, that's why all the empyreans are actually connected to him, not Marika, and that's why he was guarding the EB, kinda like Miquella stealing Mohgs corpse to usit as a vessel to put Radhans soul, maybe the Greater Will took Marikas body to create Radagon or directly use her as an avatar but taking the form as Radagon
And then, there's the option of that since the Scadutree was the shadow of the Erdtree, and was itself without Order, that the latter was of Order. Which leads to the conclusion that Marika in fact did bring Order, but it was reserved for the Lands Between, while the Lands of Shadow were lift without. Another reason to "cleanse" them in a holy war.
This is one of the best lore videos I've ever seen for elden ring, It explained so many things and concepts I didn't even know were covered at all in the game and left to blind speculation. I get it SO MUCH more know.
I love your style of breaking down each bit piece by piece to get to the conclusions you do. It's nice to see people filling in the blanks wherever the lore might guide us! Simply just for the fun of it, I have one thing about this theory that makes me question it though; Or I'd like to hear what you think about it at least. That is; that (The Land of Gold & Land of Shadows) *Both* contain their own sets of fallings star beasts, and fingers. & with this in mind, it's impossible for Marika herself or her accension to predate the fingers / greater wills intervention onto the lands. Since, Metyr is the Mother of all 2 fingers and finger creepers - and she was the first shooting star to land, This canonically puts her a decently good chunk of time before Marika split the lands in two. The current canon explicitly puts Metyr before the Elden beast & the falling star beasts, whom then later become the astel/natural born That we see in the base game/ land of the erdtree. My resolution to this to still keep your theory intact, I would just say that Marika was coerced with the power of the 2 fingers to create the gate of divinity with the crucible, which at this point is the hornsent people. And this still keeps intact the original sin of marika, the seduction of the greater will, and how the greater will can be cut off from the lands of shadows alone, by the removal of the erdtree - and secondly when the erdtree is finally burned in the base game, would those fingers also then be cut off from the greater will. The tree acting as their wifi tower to commune through. Like the hornsent allegedly tried doing with the bodies of the Shaman and their spiral towers. The only logical leap you need to make from this is that Ymir is simply also cut off in the lands of shadow, like messer and his soldiers alike. He believes it's abandonment - but he also wants his knights to believe that he is also somehow the only answer/ the only star in the sky. He would've had no idea of anything passed the epoch of the creation of the gate of divinity, and Marikas Accension through the original sin. He also believed he could take the place of Metyr, and birth new fingers so that he could convene with the greater will so needless to say he was also a bit lost as well lol idk, maybe I'm just yapping. I hope I made some sorta sense haha Anyways, Much Love & your videos are dope :)
This also explains the fingerslayer blade. The Numen attempted to free Marika with the fingerslayer blade. Maybe it was once used to injure Metyr as well. Maybe that was why the Nox were banished underground.
Coming from Reddit, nice video overall. Just an FYI, the timestamp goes before the name of the chapter in the video, not the other way around. Another tip: RUclips uses a worse codec for smaller RUclipsrs. Try upscaling the video to at least 2K to force RUclips to use the better codec, which should result in more detailed 1080p.
HI there! Thanks for coming over for a watch. For some reason the timestamps just doesn't work for me no matter how I type it. But I will change it back and pray it works suddenly. Much appreciated on the upscaling tip, had no idea!
I'm positive the figure holding up the Strands is Radagon. Idk how it fits in with Marika and her betrayal and ascension or the birth of the Golden Order but every time I see that clip I see a male silhouette. The lighting gives the gold hair a red tint which l think hints at Radagon. His hair was described as golden before being cursed.
To me, she actually more resembles the androgenous statue you find in the Shaman Village that clearly depicts a person with female features, but no breasts. In the trailer, she also looks strangely flat-chested, though she's also turned mostly away from us to maybe misdirect us. I'm of the opinion Marika is a true saint that survived the jar process, and has always been an androgenous male/female hybrid because of being combined with multiple people into one body. She only chose to present as female when she needed to breed and make children, but changed to Radagon when she needed to seduce Relanna or lead an army.
@@SuperGrooby but they are two distinct people. It's not a matter of Marika simply "presenting" as masculine or feminine. Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon was trying to repair it. Marika saw the flaws of the Golden Order while Radagon was totally loyal to it.
The golden string decoration the silhouette wears around its arms are exactly at the same place as Marika's. Radagon wear them at a different place. You can see it with their statues.
@@luckyowl6432 in response to the lighting, the red tint is probably because the entire structure is made out of blood and gore. Also, if there is actually something in the game that suggests Radagon's hair was gold at some point, please let me know where because I want to know if that is the case.
@@impartialthrone2097 I believe both statements can be true. For much of their lives Marika and Radagon had no reason to disagree. Their motives were the same. It's only in the later stages of their godhood did their lives and desires begin to go in separate directions.
listening to the video and I just want to put this thought down, in case I forget before the video ends - if Marika's early actions, like her trying to heal an empty village, or splitting the Great tree into Erdtree+Scadutree, are described as having "no sense of Order", could it be that Radagon was the concept of Order, created by or assigned by Greater Will/fingers/whatever entity, to make some boundaries and rules for Marika? Create a sense of order for her. And for whatever reason, Marika then decided to merge with Radagon and accept his pursuit of order. Being a shaman, who "melds with others easily", she'd be able to truly incorporate him into her own being. Or more accurately, seeing how Radagon is used as a weapon by Divine Beast, it could also be seen as Radagon being a tool of the Divine Beast, the embodiment of Order and a vassal of Greater Will, crafted with the purpose of keeping Marika on a leash.
You make a really good point about Ymir not being a reliable witness but i think the new Crimson/Cerulean seed talismans show the erdtree seed between two fingers. The Erdtree being marikas manifesation of the elden ring. So that implies they endorsed her and gave her the means to create her Order.
Great video! Marika using the remains of the previous Elden Ring to lure in the Greater Will is a great idea! It One theme I’ve noticed as well is the theme of intergenerational trauma and abandonment by parental figures. I think Ymir stopped too soon at assigning blame: the reason Metyr is unhinged is because the Greater Will abandoned it, just like how Marika abandoned Messmer and Miquella abandoned St Trina. Trauma is at the root of all of this: Metyr was traumatized by the Greater Will and turned to Marika, who was traumatized by the Hornsent (who are implied to have been traumatized by the Fire Giants). Marika passes this trauma on to her children, namely Miquella, who, in attempt to undue Marika’s sins, ends up retracing Marika’s folly and breeding more trauma in his wake.
In the mountain tops of the giants, the banners in the catacombs are of the 2 fingers meaning, she was fighting with their "patronage" and that the concept and "trademark" of the "Golden Order", was yet to be consolidated. So yes, I'm willing to accept the hypothesis that Marika signed a "deal with the devil" (Metyr/2 fingers/Elden Beast) in order to have her vision be the dominant one in the LB, but at the cost of working in behalf of the GW wider vision of "order".
I think the main difference between what the frenzy flame and what the golden order seek lies in time. The flame of frenzy clearly represents apathy, nihilism and hopelessness, it seeks the same end result of convergence just to end it all quickly, but doesn't see a need to get there gradually, while the golden order seems to prefer a more gradual approach. I don't know what the golden order seeks with this clearly cyclical and self terminating world, maybe it recognizes, that disorder will eventually overtake order, so it is best to just keep resetting the universe over and over to keep the order maximized. In short i think the golden order only sees eventual stagnation in marikas eternal reign, maybe in this cycle, its goal is somewhat aligned with the flame of frenzy, in that marikas world is already rotting and in dire need of a reset.
But what about what Melina said? I think hers represents the greater will, and why would it reset after all those millenia of trying to regress without burning it all down
The timeline doesnt seem to match up, not to mention the greater will is way too involved in this. The greater will almost definitely does not care or even bother with the lands between anymore. We are talking about a system where dung eater is a lord elect. Fundamentalism has nothing to do with the greater will, but an obsession of radagon. Not to mention this timeline is way too short for the ancient eternal city and the nox to have come and gone. Great theory, but fundamentally mistaken i believe.
This theory makes sense when thinking of why did marika all of a sudden want to search out the golden order if she created it ? “Those years of blind belief” wouldnt be a thing if she made the law/order.
In regards to the Golden Order, the way i look at it... Regression and Causality are two of the rings in the golden order fundamentals that govern how the universe words. What happens when you put these rings together. Things happen, but they will always regress back. So if we actually look at the Elden Stars incantation, when you cast it, i believe this depicts just that. You have a core pillar, where stars shoot off it, but are pulled back towards the core. Causality in the stars shooting off, regression that pulls them back to the core. This results in a universe where change can occur, but no matter what change happens, it will always TRY to go back to the state it was in prior. It will be pulled there. This, i assume, is the golden order. If you just had regression without causality, you would have nothing. Everything would just be the same thing. Throw causality in, and you have this instance of things happening. Now, there is a third ring, i suspect this one is something to do with harmony.. This would likely be the ring in the middle. This makes sure there isn't too much causality, and not too much regression, but just the right amount of either to create something that eternally ebs and flows. I believe this ring is somehow impacted by Godwyn's death, throwing causality and regression out of balance; which may have had something to do with the shattering. If we look at Godwyn symbolically, he is the harmonizer of the lands between. He brings peace, and existed in an age where there was an end to war. The moment he dies, suddenly all hell breaks loose. We look at Radagon, he attempts to regress things by repairing the ring, and Marika of course would be causality, who shatters it. I believe they are like avatars for these elements perhaps; kind of like in hindu mythology. We see this depicted in other empyreans also, which may be exactly what an empyrean is... An avatar for some divine concept.
I'll flip a few nickels in. Radahn has the power of stasis. Not stasis on a micro or localized scale, but the powerful stasis in the big picture. Fates being stopped, stars unmoving. Placidusax, in a way, has perfect control over Regression, since he can produce localized areas of time reversal. Farrum Azula exists within this bubble, and you use this power to repair the gold needle. Whether it's mastery over Regression, or an ability to erode Causality, though, is actually a question worth considering the difference between. While we don't know the associated spheres of influence for most of the Great Runes, we have slight confirmation that Rennala's at least includes Rebirth, and know of the Rune of Destined Death. We have only bare associations of gameplay mechanics for the others, some of which just mirror the traits of their bearers, some of which are just kinda their own thing; it would be dangerous to read too much into those, but, being aware of them could help.
This is neither here nor there but I have a hunch there is a lot of ancient Egyptian mythology in Elden Ring. To stay on the topic of your video I want to point out the creator god, Aten. As a god Aten was the sun and was often depicted as a sun with sunrays coming off of it that end with hands. Sometime the sun would also be shown with two much larger arms with hand, among it's many ray with little hands. Aten was also the god of Akhenaten, a pharaoh who tried to replace the worship of Ra with the worship of Aten. His cult died soon after he did, replace with the previous religion. Egypt was also the first culture to have a world tree and world serpent as part of it's mythology. Finally there was a very common artifact found in many mummy tombs that was a carving of Osiris's two fingers. They were supposed to represent healing and protection and were called the two-finger amulets by Egyptologists.
That is a lot of interesting points but one thing i will mention is that Norse mythology also includes a world tree and world serpent as well. The reason i mention it is because back before the game dropped many news sources were saying that elden ring was froms newest european mythos themed game.
Reaching any agreement about these things is tough, however I appretiate the amount of work you put into clearly showing the sources of your theory. Even if I happen to draw different conclusions from them, linking various sources together on one topic is very helpful!
Regarding 'what is Elden Ring', I always thought of it as a circle of life, or a circle of blood circulating through body, and Marika as a "vessel" as in "blood vessel".
I think in that scene, Marika's Ascension. She plug the death rune from the Elden ring. That's her order, the world without death. After the things she experienced in her village, she probably do it as a revenge of her tribe. The corpse she is taking the golden threats look like a ooze, as her kin punished this way, that hair can belonged to the motherly figure in her village. If you look closer the rune of death have the similar shape. Also I think that gate is opening to the divinity which any or every outer god can give her the power she crave, at least the seeds of it. So maybe that's why her children have a connection with other gods. So basically she became a divine being because of revenge and she have 5 children with 5 different divine connection. Melina, Messmer, Milenia, Miqelia and Ranni. All of them carries a strong influence of outer gods.
So I'm gonna assume that, since Radagon came out of nowhere, Radagon is partially the greater will as much as the elden beast is. He's the one that stopped Marika from breaking the ring, and it's no surprise that it's HIS children who become candidates to be the next God
This! I like that you are presenting a new timeline. I never thought that the Elden Beast came to the Lands Between AFTER Marika ascended. Marika's Age of Plenty was her just freely giving healing and life to everyone indiscriminately. I'm not sure why this was bad even if it was not orderly, but maybe I just need to think on it. THANK YOU for going against the grain with EVIDENCE.
I do find it compelling to think that Marika didn't strip the Tarnished of Grace of her own volition, but rather because they were empowered by the last version of Gold. She knew that as soon as the new Order would come into effect, they would be stripped of Gold anyway, and it fits with her character that she wanted everyone to believe that she was in control, so she pretended to be the one to make the decision. It also fits with her proclamation of the "new age, glistening with lyfe". Either she assumed that the age of plenty would last forever, or she knew that it would come to an end once the Greater Will sent its agent, but she wanted to claim credit nonetheless. Furthermore it fits with the camera hacked close up pictures of the crown of the Erdtree where you can see the gold of the illusory tree creeping into the wood of the old Crucible tree, there has been many hypotheses of the Erdtree being burnt once before and this being the reason for its gifts drying up, but it makes even more sense that the new Order prohibited it from living forever, so now it's a dead tree that is nonetheless unable to die due to the removal of Destined Death, with the gold tree that the new Order tried to replace it with viciously clawing at it but being unable to pull it apart. I also think that the golden egg that Radagon gave to Rennala has something to do with this, since it contains another great rune fragment that seems to be connected to birth. This happened before the Shattering so presumably it was removed from the Elden Ring in the same way as Destined Death, so once these were removed, the people of Lands Between slowly lost both their ability to truly die, and their ability to conceive new life, as is alluded to in the description of turtle neck meat, and as some people have suggested also the rituals going on at Windmill Village.
At this point, I’m pretty sure the rupture is that the crucible was broken into the Erdtree and the Scadutree. That was Marika’s act at the divine gate and what caused the Great War.
While I may be wrong it doesn't really look like she's retrieving the threads from a cadaver, it looks more like some sack or similar container made from skin, very similar to the godskin apostles garments in fact. If she was pulling them out of a cadaver we would expect to see some visible limbs or a head from that angle, the edges of the hole also doesn't look ragged or sporting ribs on the inside, it looks like the edge is folded over inwards, much like what you'd see on a sack. There are some bloody gashes or sutures higher up on the side of the hole though, so it might be a cadaver?
as soon as the trailer dropped it was clear to me the snake like thing is the fled god of placidusax trying to stop marika from ascending, while doing so it was killed and it's threads taken by marika for her to ascend with it explaining why the god never returned to him, also that snake was probably one of the most powerful divine beasts worshipped by the hornsent just like the hawk king and serosh were worshipped until beaten by ordis and hoarah loux
I think that Metyr dropped first, then the Elden beast, then she was broken while the Elden beast was dormant as rules of the world. When Marika shatters the runes, maybe even in opposition to the fingers and their directions as she wondered about the greater will" this woke up the Elden Beast who was probably just defending itself and probably disgusted with how the world had become. *shrugs*
I'm not sure tarnished losing their grace due to change in the elden ring is completely right though because the hornsent were related to the crucible which means they should also consist of the previous cycle gold/grace but Messmer was specifically asked to vanquish people who were stripped of grace which happened to be hornsent at that time which doesn't line up, it lines up as to why he fights us because we were stripped of grace through your theory but then why were the hornsent?
Awesome video, great to see all the effort you've put into the video and all the theories your uncovered. Also very nice presentation and script for the video, relying on dialogue and item description as well as the world building bits. Would love to see more videos from you!
the thing she's pulling the golden threads out of, looks suspiciously like the textures of the Godskin armor. and the little round thing inside kinda looks like a bald head. Maybe she sacrificed someone else to become a god, maybe Melina, or the missing Gloam eyed Queen who seems to have a deep relation to the Godskins.
I was thinking almost the same thing, and I'm surprised no one is talking about that. You can see the thick flaps of skin with stitches quite clearly. As per usual, it also looks uncomfortably yonic, possibly symbolizing a birth of some sort. Either way, we don't really see any of such stitched flesh/hide on any of the other potential candidates. Not on the Hornsent, dancing lion puppets, jar innards, or even the dragons. What we see there is not Marika tearing the old Elden Ring out of whatever dragon Placidusax was consort to, I think.
@@lilyayora it makes more sense if you think about how we don't see any signs of Marika discarding her own body like her son did, (maybe that's the sin Miquella is trying to fix by doing so? the only discarded part of her we see is some of her hair left in tribute to another female of her tribe) so in order to become a god, along with the two pillars of bodies(towers of soul sacrifices) that I'm assuming Messmer gathered for her. She also sacrificed another being who held the key to her ascension. Edit: also, the godskins did seem to be in super convenient places that would directly oppose us as the player, AND the golden order.
@@LeviKieffer Marika could very well have discarded Radagon as part of divesting herself of her "other self", and the whole jar ritual thing the hornsent did may have fulfilled the same role as discarding one's flesh (or in this case, melding it with others to reach a more divine self). We know that the rest of the shamans got jarred, so it makes sense for Marika to have also been a victim. After all, it's said that the purpose of the jar rituals is to help the shamans achieve "sainthood", which could be interpreted as being a capable vessel for an outer god. After all, the other two "saints" we know of in the game (St. Trina aka Miquella, an empyrean; and Romina, Saint of the Bud, a vessel for the rot god) are confirmed to be capable vessels of an outer god. This would also explain why the hornsent see her actions as a betrayal or label her a traitor. They turned her into a saint so that she could be a vessel for their gods, but unbeknownst to them Marika had already made contact with the Two Fingers in the finger ruins by her home in the Hinterlands. So, when it came time to ascend, she seized the opportunity to steal the strands and become a vessel of the Greater Will instead. I also have thoughts about the golden wind at 0:08 in the video perhaps being indicative of the arrival of the Elden Beast. Perhaps even marking the point where Metyr was abandoned, replaced with the Greater Will's new envoy. That's a lot of speculation, though, and the game definitely leaves it up to much different interpretations of events based on how you want to fill in the gaps. Miyazaki's always said that his storytelling was inspired of his time as a child, looking at the pictures in books but not knowing how to read and having to make up stories to fill in the gaps himself. I think it's fitting to use these games as a chance to craft a story that fits all of the given source material, even if it requires a bit of speculation and imagination.
I thought so initially as well, but the embroidery doesnt actually match the godsking armor/clothing. The timeline would also be messy since its hinted that Vargram, a tarnished, aspired to be the Gloam eyed Queens shadow, which would put her defeat at the hands of Maliketh bit later than Marikas ascension. But idk maybe Marika rose to power way before actually becoming a god and Maliketh defeated the Gloam eyed queen just before the scene in the trailer, who was to be the rightful new god or smth.
holy shit i just put that together, shaman are known for their ability to meld with other beings, and godskins "incorporate inhuman physiology". The gold threads she is pulling from the corpse is clearly blonde hair, which is a trait of the shaman. The seal of the godskins looks *exactly* like Metyr's face, perhaps Metyr resented Marika's attempts at ascension, melded shaman with serpents to form the godskin, and sent them after marika? the timeline would be all messed up in that case....
What's the reasoning behind Elden Beast coming after the dragons, if it's so clear the dragons also had the Elden Ring??? Marika also removed runes, as we also do in the endings, no need to make new one. Also the description says "which would later become THE Elden Ring" not "an" Elden Ring. Unless the Japanese is different I don't see how this would make sense Previous ages all had their own order Also I'd say Marika plucked out DD because she was afraid of getting replaced. It happened right after Maliketh was sent against gloam eyed queen
Great video, a lot I agree with, and small details you paid attention to that most ignore. My one disagreement, is on the Scadutree not being the crucible. I don’t see why both can’t be true: it was the crucible, and Marika grafted the Scadutree over it, just as the Erdtree was potentially grafted over an existing great tree
I wonder if the connection to the Elden Ring is what made the dragons turn to eternal stone. Marika and Radagon are both sort of half stone, half Scadutree-like darkness, as if they’ve only “recently” been turning into stone. Goes to show how ancient the dragons really are
My theory is that unlike Ranni and Miquella who had shed their empyrean flesh, Marika was a full empyrean under the two fingers, they guided her to become a god using the Divine Gate, and likely then betraying her would be Lord to create the Golden Order. Her actions were described as the seduction, the betrayal. I believe that just like how Mohg was betrayed and his body used to resurrect radahn I think Marika betrayed her would be consort, likely a being connected to the Crucible or the Age of Plenty, and used their body to create Radegon using a piece of her own soul. This is why Marikas children are born cursed, as her ascension was itself an act of blasphemy and a betrayal of the other gods by the Two Fingers.
Swear on god this video deserves more views…cants say more because i dont know more english im from spain tho (i know how to speak and understand english very well im just really high) but this is a masterpiece.. been talking bout this w 20plus friends…
I think the beast makes sense to come before and potentially be the god of Placidusax, considering that the beast has more in common with ancient dragons physically than humans.
Idk if ive seen a theory video about this yet, but my head cannon is still that the 3 fingers and 2 fingers used to make a whole, kind of fits with the whole theme of the game. Maybe the greater will stopped contacting the lands between becsuse the fingers basically developed a split personality when the 3 fingers and 2 fingers were separated, almost how the shadow lands and the lands between were separated
I tend to agree with your premise, especially in regards to marika likely stealing the crucible from the hornsent or at least this part of the lands between, creating the sprout the erdtree grew from. She was obviously the person who became a god here previously to Miquella, and it gives a good explanation as to how she ascended from being a numen (whatever the hell a numen actually is) to an actual god. It explains why the crucible knights of the shadow realm have no connection to the ones we fought in the main game, because they likely existed in a vacuum in regards to eachother. Though, I don't know if it explains why the shadow realms are severed from the lands between, as it creates some plot holes if that happened when marika ascended to godhood rather than a point where marika deemed the lands useless or if she was using them to store Messmer.
i think the greater will and one great are the same, and it's a black hole. the lands between is on the event horizon (golden ring) event horizons have shadows btw that makes 3 rings with a empty void in the middle like ymirs hat or miquella ring gesture, a dark void devoid of light like messmers eye. all things will end up getting sucked into the void eventually have you noticed that when we free the stars they all travel in one direction..... would imply something pulling them in 1 direction to me the whole thing is using science to craft fantasy, down to metals, space, plants, technology, me and you been thinkin similar ideas it seems, i also think the flame of frenzy is the greater wills influence, it wants to be whole again it wants to melt it down into one (black hole)
So what you are saying is the greater will hit the reset button when Marika ascended? And that reset button manifested as causality and regression. Its so fundemental; this perception and understanding.
The Radagon/Crucible DLC will answer questions and provide good lore that most people have no imagination to think about. The crucible is something different from the big trees and will probably not be at their roots, but thats the story of the next dlc.
Hey. Nice content details gathering. I'm 100% sure there was a different version of the elden ring before Marika stepped through the door. But that must not imply that there were 2 rings - it's more likely modified - obviously the subtraction of rune of death in which place order was set. Our main goal is to repair the ring and there are 4 options of modifying - she did the same, but result was incomplete... Removing death out of a cycle system evolved to stagnation and stagnation to rot. Also possible that after elden beat came in the order advised radahn to go to gravity school to keep more potential shit through outer influence out (like astel). Even if radahn himself was only motivated to ride Leonard even longer while getting more and more bully... But that's off the topic
I really think the betrayal was literal. Marika sacrificed something (concept) or someone, and the "threads" are proof of that sacrifice, to become one with the greater will or to be seen as worthy for the role of queen. We don't know if her duality started from the beginning or before the birth of the Erdtree. We have the hint of Mesmer's red head, but we can't say for sure. The sacrifice could've been also a first born of golden hair, and she showed her devotion and willing to be accepted as vessel (prior to Elden Beast) by sacrificing first child.
The Elden Beast was sent when Metyr was still getting signals. The Greater Will was the God regent for many many many ages. Placidusax was not a Lord, he was the "Elden" Lord. He is either waiting for his god "Empyrian" or his god the actual greater will. Placidusax is when most likely when the greater will abandoned the world. And it makes sense Placidusax species is extremely ancient as you can see his species buried in Farum Azula rocks.
An interesting video, although there are a number of points that should be clarified, such as the character Ymir, apparently this character is not a reliable source of knowledge, such as the description of his "hat", which says that the Moon is just a celestial body, although at the end of the Age of Stars it is not so. Also about those who lost grace, there is a character named FIRE KNIGHT QUEELIGN in the dlc and apparently he lost grace after the second battle with us, that is, it contradicts the fact that only those who belonged to the previous Elden ring lost grace.
awsome vid and solid lore-wise. Cliffhanger you left was the thing that Marika is retrieving the golden threads from: what is it? Also I've been thinking... if the dragon lord was the elden lord, was there perhaps a god he was loyal to? And another thing, I'm not sure the exile of the tarnished is caused by the greater will, it might as well be part of Marika's plot in case everything went south. I remember a dialogue from Melina, saying like Marika wanted at some point to learn everything about the golden order, implying that maybe at some point the greater will stopped communicating its vision even to her. As to when, that's open for debate, so the exile of the tarnished could be Marika's or the GW's doing.
methyr likely was the goddess of placidusax, running away from bayle, by running away the greater will abandon her, I wouldn't be surprised if such clash caused she be unable to receive messages, considering that she is hurt and become unhinged, being beyond time, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the very reason they don't meet again, I think the fight with bayle was the spark that set in motion everything...
Elden Ring truly has such an incredible story. Piece by piece we put the puzzle together to reveal something that is still ultimately beyond our comprehension. I hope they make a 2nd ER and don’t Bloodborne/sekrio us.
Hi all! This has gotten a lot more attention than I could have imagined. After going through your comments, I have come to realize there are some premises and conclusions of this theory that should have been elaborated and explained a bit more in the video. So I am pinning the elaborations here, hoping to make things clearer.
1. The Two Elden Ring premise
The description of the incantation Elden Stars describes the arrival of the Elden RIng/Beast and is an Erdtree incantation. This seems to imply that the Elden Ring was sent during and is linked to the Era of the Erdtree. On the other hand, the ancient dragons era is a "prehistoric era before the Erdtree", yet they also seems to have an Elden Ring of their own, and a different looking one at that. Meanwhile, Metyr is said to be “the first shooting star” to fall upon the Landsbetween, in a similar fashion as the Elden Star which bore the Elden Ring. So from here the simplest solution would be the conclusion of two Rings, first one bore by Metyr in prehistoric time of the Ancient Dragons, and second one the bore by an Elden Star in the Age of the Erdtree of Marika.
2. "Elden Stars" is also a great counter evidence to the theory.
Elden Stars is also said to be the most ancient of incantations derived from the Erdtree.
Since this incantation is the most ancient one aka the first one derived from the Erdtree, and mentions the arrival of the Elden Ring, it can also imply that the Elden Ring/Beast was sent during the earliest days of the Erdtre, if not before its existence and is linked to its creation. Therefore, the Elden Ring/beast seems unlikely to have arrived near the end of the age of plenty as the video suggests
This is indeed a hard one for that part of the theory. But the theory overall can still stand as long as the Ring was sent on earliest days of Erdtree and not before its creation. And Marika instead waited the war to end where the Erdtree finally "become the embodiment of Order" before she made all the changes, which is a strategically sensible thing to do.
2. Ymir and the Three Fingers are unreliable narrators
I agree we cannot treat their words as facts. it’s obvious they have their own agenda and are most likely insane. But what Ymir said about the Fingers being broken was also mentioned by Gideon and the description of Lord’s Divine Fortification incantation. On the other hand, the origin story told by the Three Fingers in the base game is reinforced by Ymir’s version in the DLC. Given the context that there is limited amount of lore and revelations fromsoft can put into the DLC and they had to be efficient on what’s the best to include to tie in the story best they can, i think it makes more sense that Fromsoft is confirming the Origin story to us through Ymir, rather than simply repeating an unreliable narrator theme of the Three Fingers with such length.
And considering Ymir’s goal is to become a mother of fingers, it seems more likely that he would be besmirching the mother of the fingers instead, about it being unhinged and broken. However the fingers being broken was again confirmed by other sources as well. So maybe he’s not as much of an unreliable narrator upon closer inspection, as he seemed.
3. Greater Will is too involved in this theory
The presentatio of the theory does somehow seem to suggest so, so I should have elaborated more on this. I think the changes and events mentioned in this video happened not because of the Greater Will was actively interfering and making them happen but because of the new laws and order ordained by the Elden ring and the beast that is described as the LIVING incarnation of the concept of Order. Again the Elden ring is a concept that defines the world. And changes happened simply because the new ring defined the worldly differently and ordained a new order. And is the Greater Will completely passive and indifferent? We know the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will and Astel was sent to banish them underground. Unless this too is also an unreliable narrator, it would be safe to conclude the Greater Will did make his will known and interfered at times and not totally passive.
Finally, there are a lot of nuances or events this video hasnt really touched on or fit in, but thats also why this will not be the last video or theory of this channel.
Thank you fellow Tarnished for showing so much love on my first video!
People’s argument against point 2 is an ad hominem fallacy. Just because Ymir is sus doesn’t necessarily mean he spits lies. For 3 if we treat the greater will as essentially the Big Bang (very fromsoft thing to do) and use Occam’s razor it makes sense that nobody in the Lands Between understands the Will’s true desire nor the means of “intervention”. Astel being the Will’s ire may simply be a misattribution of intention and the “intervention” was the randomness of reality ultimately caused by the very first (and potentially only tangible) action of the Greater Will being the creation of the stars/big bang.
@@OccamsOnion Elden Stars description calls it "the" Elden Ring, not "an" Elden Ring, or a new one. Also Metyr doesn't have any golden attacks/abilities, something that we can always see with greater will's vassals, I doubt it could've ever beared the Elden Ring (Placi can still spit gold even without having a God or being a real Lord anymore)
The incantation is the oldest of the Erdtree ones, not necessarily the description of it
@@ungratefulingrate1268 Godfrey is also named "First Elden Lord" while Placidusax is another that preceded him. It is true that its called "the" Elden Ring in the description, but it could be a matter of cycle.
Metyr indeed does not have any golden attacks. But she was not an Elden Lord like Placidusax but instead "a shooting star", just like the Elden Star. Her lack of Gold does not necessarily imply her inablity to carry the Elden Ring, considering she is the daughter of the Greater Will who sent the Elden Ring.
@@OccamsOnion The Elden Ring is always depicted as golden and the Elden Beast (which becomes the ER) is also a super golden gold spewing beast. Also the dragons archeologically came first, we know this much. For EB idrk
The biggest problem with elden stars incantation is that it states "It is said...". Maybe that's just what Fingers want us to believe. My assumption would be that there is one elden ring, in a sense it is made up with the same parts, just re-arranged. In 2019 Announcement trailer we can see golden threads embedded into Marika's hammer after she smashes it into the ring, very similar to ones seen on the DLC trailer. Maybe she's pulling the ring from the former vessel to re-arrange it and then insert into herself. Anyway, connection between Elden Beast and Ring is very ambiguous, e.g. in Elden Lord ending the beast is slain, yet the ring, although fractured, remains.
Btw, great video.
On the stone slabs in Belurat we see depictions of the Crucible. It is three tree trunks entwined. I think the Erdtree and Scadutree used to be entwined. Marika simply plucked the Erdtree from the Crucible and left the remnants (the Scadutree) to rot. She wanted the gold aspect of the Crucible without its other characteristics (the red part of the old gold).
thats pretty interesting
that would explain why the scadutree is crumbling, and also why the physical erdtree only lasted for a short while
Yes, it's the typical From soft's yin-yang philosophy. There was a Whole, but Marika defied the balance and separated light and dark. Her Erdtree can be so "pure" and "brilliant", because Scadutree is so dark and brittle. Instead of Gwyn stopping the natural cycles of age of light changing into the age of dark, and back again, she simply divided the holistic Crucible and hid the half she didn't need, likewise destroying the natural balance and creating the stagnation in the process. Though I absolutely don't believe there were more elden rings like he says in the video, that's just complete guesswork with zero evidence, and it's extremely unlikely. We can literally change how the elden ring looks in the endng, just like Marika did once. Just because the version of ancient dragons looked different it doesn't mean it was actually another elden ring.
The scadutree is exactly what its name suggest. It's just the shadow of the erdtree. Everything there is a shadow of something that exists in the lands between
@@zachariahsmith9130 but it *is* the lands between, it's just the center of the continent veiled by marika. The erdtree is a parasite either way, the shadow tree *is* the og great tree of the setting. Hell even decaying as it is, it still produces sap unlike the erdtree. Between marika having messmer purge the hornset + her hiding the whole region, there just isnt anyone left in game to tell its' story proper. It's an unreliable narrator with scattered item descriptions, but what little there is makes that much clear atleast ^^
I just wanted to say, you say that Metyr never received any messages from the greater will, but the staff of the great beyond says "the mother recieved signs from the greater will", which means she received messages for a time. but at a certain point it seems she was abandoned. its very interesting thinking about what could have caused the greater will to abandon her
She was the gloam eyed queen. Hence the sigil, catalyst having her face, number of fingers, and eye
It says in the intro to Elden Ring that the war that was The Shattering came to a stand still and thus led to the Greater Will abandoning the Lands Between since no lord arose from the war
I think "the greater will" was the big bang. That bloke says in the dlc "we are all truly stardust" which is something Joni Mitchell said at woodstock, that I've known a bajillion physicists to lean on while i was studying, because we are all made from "the same stuff" from the big bang.
So the "one great" in this context that was then "fractured" would be the greater will, and in my headcanon metyr was one of many many astral bodies sent hurtling from the greater will. We already know astral bodies have sentience from the moons, the astel, etc etc. I think Metyr was likely a liar who last "communed" with the greater will while hurtling through space a *long* time ago, similarly i read the frenzied flame as a "big crunch" scenario. But thats just me
@@DonutSwordsman She wasn't the Gloam Eyed Queen. The Gloam Eyed Queen was a human Empyrean.
@@zasshulad2619source? For the life of me I can’t remember any item that actually describes the physical form of GEQ
I've been thinking, that Marika seduced the hornsent with promises of divine power, secrets she learned from the Fingers, but when they built the gate of divinity, she betrayed them, and took the divine power for herself.
The tribe to which Marika belonged was shamans with connection with the spirits but they were not warriors nor is it known to be violent people.
The old woman calls Marika Traitor, surely she had to work for them pretending that she was loyal for a long time waiting to win her trust and lower their guard.
An army as great as Messmer does not appear out of nowhere, it was surely a plan that took decades.
@@elconflictivo7099 Right, a zealous counter-cult building in the background while Marika planned her revenge. Insidious, but undoubtedly effective.
I've been thinking the same, because it would explain something that puzzles me: why the inquisitors have golden order-like spells. She was also called basically a "prostitute" (with other words lol) by the Hornsent old lady, perhaps there's some strange relationships Marika had. This would explain also why in the talisman depicting Godfrey it's said that he accepted lordship "stoically". Why would you accept stoically something, if not because you know that something messed up was going on? Perhaps Marika already had children as part of her vengeance quest (Messmer-Melina)?
@@kindasus3749 For the bit about Godfrey, I think the "stoically" wording just refers to his transformation from his Warrior personality to his Elden Lord personality. We know from the description of his Axe that when he took the vow to become Elden Lord he resolved to alter his behavior and conduct from that of a bloodthirsty berserker to one of a calm ruler. "Stoic" is basically the perfect word to describe Godfrey's personality as Elden Lord, so it seems to me that it's referring to his suppression of his violent tendencies.
@@reperfan4 yeah that sounds about right
I don’t think that there essentially need to be two Elden Rings, I think the previous Elden Ring of Placidusax’s and his consort God’s order are simply the previous iteration of the Order. We know even in the current age that new Runes in the form of Mending Runes can not only created by mortals (non-gods) but also inserted to the Elden Ring to make new concepts/law to manifest in the world.
I also think that the Elden Beast isn’t some separate entity that represents the Elden Ring, rather he IS the Elden Ring. The description of Elden Stars did say this:
“It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.”
Overall solid theory and banger video. I subscribed 🤗❤
Hi there! Thanks for the sub and the comment!
Now realized I should have included the reasoning that led to the two elden ring premise in the video but i am glad i get the chance to bring up now!
The time of the Ancient dragons is said to be a "prehistoric era before the erdtree". And since Elden Stars, which describe the arrival of elden ring/beast, is an Erdtree incantation, it led me to think that the elden star could not have arrived in the ancient dragons' era, as there wasnt an Erdtree yet at the time.
Therefore the elden ring engraving in the Farum Azula could likely be a different and earlier ring which arrived through a different mean, and we just so happen to have Metyr who is said to be the very first shooting stars that landed in the landsbetween, in simlar fashion as the elden stars. So it led to the conclusion in the video that Metyr could have bore the first ring but was abandoned by the Greater Will together with it after things derailed.
The sudden arrival of a new ring(implying new laws and order) also make the drastic changes near the end of the war and the sudden founding of Golden Order much more explainable too.
I think the Elden Beast has a lot of agency to itself considering its also a boss we face hence i talked about it like a different entity to the ring and it was also likely the one who hung up Marika inside the tree for shattering the Ring, but I agree that the Elden Beast is essentially the Elden Ring.
@@OccamsOnionthe incantation was probably made after the event of the elden beast arriving
@@eazyelof4283 but the elden beast casts elden stars in the final fight, so I think the incantation must have been created, at the latest, the same time the beast arrived; or when the beast itself was created.
@wqeerwqeer1375 the incantation most likely is just an imitation of the Elden Beast's attack, rather than the exact thing itself (lore wise)
@@wqeerwqeer1375 It can be safely assumed that all incantations are mere imitations, methods of reproducing and channeling other powerful entities' innate powers. The Fire Serpent spell even points out that the incantation was given to Messmer's soldiers so they could wield the flame, since they couldn't use the actual legitimate flames of Messmer. Messmer doesn't cast "Messmer Flame Incantations", he just has the flame powers innately. Elden Beast doesn't cast the Elden Stars incantation, that's just something it can do, and the incantation would've been created to conjure up that same power.
Idk why everyone is so quick to just take Ymir at his word. Him calling anyone else unhinged seems pretty rich imo
@@RicAdbur True but it's also stated by Varre that the fingers were defective and Metyrs descriptions confirm she was abandoned. I don't think he is right about Marika but probably is about the fingers.
I assume all information put in there by FromSoftware holds weight and purpose. If it didn’t, why bother analyzing any lore?
Just because Ymir is unhinged in his own way doesn't mean he's wrong about others. That argument is an ad hominem, which is a fallcy.
@@ETBrooDyou're ad hominem too.
@zasshulad2619 given Varre is actively working against the 2 things im not i trust him
This perfectly aligns with st. Trina's "Godhood would be Miquella's prison". It also hints at the origins of Radagon, and wether or not Radagon and Marika were always the same person, or were at some point made to be the same person.
I think it’s interesting to consider that the fusing of Radagon and Marika into one being may have been a punishment employed by the Elden Beast, but the only issue with this idea is that Marika herself has a quote where she seems to acknowledge that Radagon is “yet to become me”, implying that she somehow knew in advance that they would end up becoming a single entity at some point
@@kmoney7862those two things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be nice to get some answers as to how Radagon and St. Trina came to be. I think the most likely option is that an Empyrean can physically manifest separate pieces of their personality, at the very least one other entity of the opposite gender. Personally, i think Marika did this with Radagon before she ever met Godfrey, which is where Messmer and Melina came from. I think her two fingers found this distasteful tho (it’s basically incest) and forced her to marry Godfrey and send Radagon to marry Renalla. This would be in line with themes that GRRM wrote about in the ASoIaF books. Eventually tho, Marika exiled Godfrey and the Two Fingers only choice was to put Radagon on her as a watchdog. I think that Maliketh had originally served that purpose as her shadow, but for whatever reason he wasn’t able to do the job anymore. This makes sense when we consider how Blaidd couldn’t control Ranni. Maybe she just got too powerful and the only entity who could control her was her exact equal. Sorry for the book but these theories are really fascinating to me lol
Considering that Marika is of the Shaman people, and the reason they were targeted by the Hornsent empire is that "their flesh is said to meld harmoniously with others" I think it's reasonable to speculate that the greater will simply observed this trait in their new puppet-regent, and decided to graft a more slavishly loyal distaff counterpart to her.
Considering that Radagon's red hair seems to mark him as Of The Crucible, it's also possible that he was even... created by the moment of her ascension, the divine gate did seem to be at least in part a Hornsent holy site, so its power being used to bring someone to godhood could well have invoked an embodiment of that essence, the raw, chaotic, unpredictable energy of life and evolution. Of course this wouldn't really explain the internalised self-loathing he had for all things Crucible, as signified by his hatred of his own red hair, maybe the greater will sunk those gaslighting hooks in real early for the fresh new mind.
@@leviadragon99 Radagon's red hair is more likely of giant relation (Giant's red braid), and I would say the hatred of the crucible-touched is more of Marika's thing. of course, red gold has been linked to the crucible before, as is the case with the crucible knight's armors, so I do not disagree with that. I do, however, agree that the fusion of Radagon to Marika was likely a punishment, as Marika does seem to dislike Radagon in the dialogue Melina shares with us. And also, her favorite child was not a child of Radagon, although that could be coincidental. Also, i would like to point out that all of Marika's children are cursed (save Godwyn, although perhaps his cruel fate was his curse), but none of Radagon's children with Renalla are, perhaps implying that Radagon and Marika were conjoined after Marika was cursed? Purely speculation, of course.
@@davidmingle5910 you might be onto something there, perhaps the greater will observed that the empyreans this puppet god was providing were less than ideal for its purposes, and decided on a workaround, quite devious actually.
Though it's worth noting, the Omen children were not in fact cursed per se, they were viewed as a curse by the Golden Order, but they simply represented the rival power of the crucible, the same power that Marika ultimately drew upon by using the Hornsent's divine gate, so it's hardly surprising that her children presented wild, random Mutations, in line with said source.
Ah, yes, Count Ymir obviously gets a say in who is unhinged
Count Ymir: "Metyr and the Two Fingers were all crazy and broken from the start."
Also Count Ymir: "I'm going to *become* Metyr, surely I can avoid going crazy. I'm just built different."
As it happens, Ymir was *not* built different and, in fact, was "defective" from the start.
Such a funny comment
Been saying this for awhile now
@@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only One thing does not exclude the other. Ymir being unbalanced does not mean he doesn't have knowledge to share. He is not a useless or filler character; his quest contributes significantly to the game's lore. After all, all the characters in the game have loose screws.
@@LuizHenrique-by4bz Ymir also states that his sole source of the information is defective and abandoned.
I kinda wish we could get definitive answers to some of these questions, but at the same time, the theorycrafting with the community is some of the most fun shit I've ever experienced.
It looks like they're making a movie or TV show, so we'll probably get answers then.
@@robaustin_ doubtful it will be from the people who actually wrote the lore and not netflix tier writers who hate the source material.
Nice theory. I think the seduction and betrayal is literal in this sense. Marika convenes with the two fingers, which were abandoned by the greater will at this point, and they realize they can use her to force a reconnection with the greater will. They offer a deal. "Become our new god (our new puppet) and we will grant you vengeance" Marika didnt realize the full implications at the time, so she went with it. The two fingers, with their former comnection to the greater will and the elden ring could probably have pointed her in the direction of the previous "god" which wouldve been the last host of the elden ring. She seduces him, kills him, takes the threads, becomes a god-puppet, and for a time, before the elden beast had arrived with the new elden ring, she had freedom. Thats when messmerr and melina came to be, flawed because they were children of marika and radagon, who was marikas other self, a result from what the hornsent did to marika the "saint". This also probably explains why shes derranged but regardless, she uses messmer and melina to aid in taking revenge, but when the elden beast arrives, and the golden order is established, eventually they had to go, being relics from a different age technically. Marika's bonded in golden chains, wamts to break them, forms a plan, shatters the elden ring, and then we come along. All part of the plan.
I think the Crucible is the Order before the Golden Order, during the Age of Plenty, at the time when Placidusax reigned and when the Erdtree was the Great Tree. I believe the Crucible was the law of the land, survival of the fittest, evolution, and the ancient dragons were the pinnacle of this order. Godfrey himself once followed the crucible, and his form before Marika tamed him, Hoarah Loux, seemed to embody survival of the fittest. The land, the gods, the tree, and the orders all seem to be inherently linked together. When Marika removed the rune of death, all that had to go somewhere. All manner of death washes up in the land of shadow; the land itself is linked to death, and it too was shrouded and sealed away by Marika at the birth of her new order. The part of the Great Tree that was also linked to Destined Death was also sealed away in this land, as the Scadutree, as they are not really separate things. The Erdtree is the Great Tree with the rune of death removed: the Golden Order.
Now I say all that, simply to lay the groundwork that the Erdtree is the Great Tree, just with Destined Death removed. So, I don't think the Elden Stars description places the arrival of the Elden Beast during Marika's reign. After all, the Elden Beast is described as the true form of the Elden Ring. And the symbol of the Crucible is obviously the Elden Ring, just in a different form; a different Order, with Destined Death in place. Placidusax was also referred to as Elden Lord, an obvious nod to the fact it was consort to a god that was the vessel of the Elden Ring.
Very cool video. I greatly enjoyed watching it. That is the one detail I disagree with you on though.
The Crucible is basically the Behemoth mythos. Behemoth is a beast from the biblical Book of Job, and is a form of the primeval chaos-monster created by God at the beginning of creation (source:wiki). And the crucible knight of the DLC Devonia take the form of a behemoth, and the knight was in quest of the origin of the crucible "Devonia is the longest-serving of the Crucible Knights and is known for embarking on a solitary quest to uncover the origin of the Crucible left the lands of the Erdtree alone". Devonia looks like "Devonian", it's a prehistoric period.
There was never a Great Tree. That was a translation error. The Erdtree was once The Crucible. That's all there is to it.
a little of topic, but its something i dont see anyone ever talk about. but the rune of death and destined death arent the same thing. they are never mentioned as interchangable words. the rune of death is only ever reffered to when talking about the power removed from the elden ring. where as destined death is the gloam eyed queens power. before marika took the rune of death it was part of the elden ring. malakith took destined death from the gloam eyed queen, marika then gave death rune to him and sent him to farum azule to protect it. 2 different powers.
bit off topic but it always bugs me how no one talk about this
@@davidmorcombe6779the finger reader at the roundtable hold says the Rune of Death has another name, Destined Death.
@@davidmorcombe6779 The finger reader in the roundtable confirms that the rune of death is in fact destined death. they are 2 names for the same thing.
Eden Beast came long before Marika and The Erdtree lost its eternal status and sent out seeds when Marika Shattered the Elden Ring, also bringing the age of Plenty to and end. Also i believe the dragons eternal life is stated to come from their time-twisting scales, i'd argue the law Placidusax tampered with wasnt death or immortality, it was time. I think he just paused Ancient Dragon aging.
id argue that Death wasnt sealed at all during Placidusax's time even, as we see SO many dead bestmen in the walls and floors as well as dead dragons, as well as the ancient dragons creating dragon communion which is practiced by killing the "lowborn" drakes and eating their hearts.
Fact
When they talk about the betrayal, could it be that Marika was actually the only successful creation of a “saint” using the jars? The Hornsent believed they had made the perfect creation like they hoped, but she turned on them?
yeah, i think so. One jar worked and Marika climbed out. When she learned how it went down, she said yeah, nah, imma F U up.
I agree. She was a success, but she may not have known it the whole time. After defeating Messmer, the Grandam’s name changes to Empyrean Grandam, which some take to mean that she may have raised Marika after her successful sainthood, because she certainly isn’t an Empyrean. I think Marika came of age in Belurat after the pot, ascended to godhood and created gold and shadow by splitting the crucible into the Erdtree and Scadutree. It would be during this time that she married Godfrey and had the omen sons under the aspect of the crucible and Godwyn under the aspect of gold. Now, Godfrey is taking over the Lands Between and somehow the Gloam-Eyed Queen fits into everything here, because the Golden Order is created when she is defeated by Maliketh and the rune of death is removed from the Elden Ring. Could the Gloam-Eyed Queen have been ruling in Leyndell? Is that why the sky is purple in the trailer? Where exactly was the Elden Ring at the time? Not sure; but Godfrey wasn't sent away until after the war, which then opened up the space for Radagon and then Messmer. This tells me that there was a lot of time between Marika's ascension and Messmer's crusade. We know from the minor erdtree incantation in Shaman Village that Marika did come back to visit after reaching godhood, because she left a secret healing spell of gold without Order in honor of her people and left her braid as well. The statue in Messmer’s room shows her wearing a braided belt when holding him, indicating that she was being worshipped during her time as his mother. So, that would be a pretty big betrayal: create your own saint, ascend them into divinity, support them through civil wars, and then have them destroy your sacred grounds (the crucible), hide away your land from the sun, abandon you to a trapped realm, and commit genocide through a fiery crusade. Ouch.
"This cannot be... my destiny!" -Mewtwo
So in a sense, marika threw a revolution after plax hid away to lick his wounds from their fight with bayle (probably trying to contact the greater will himself when metyr failed them based off plax’s pose).
Only for the greater will to imperialized them again based off a petty and fleeting deal for revenge.
With my own theory being that the gloam eyed queen was potentially the empyean of plax’s reign, specifically charged with returning things back to the crucible. So when the crucible was plugged up by the erdtree and destined death removed (presumably as a way for marika to protect those she cared about, which it’s inevitable failure caused her to become cold and distant as a coping mechanism) it annoyed gloam since they made her existence pointless. Only for her to be vanquished by malikath.
With Melina’s gloam eye either due to her being possessed by gloam similar to malenia with the rot god. Or the eye is actually a iris of occultation similar to messmer iris of grace. But rather than sealing a abyssal serpent (and potentially enforce obedience like what we do to jolan) it hides you from the grace of gold and makes you exempt from any charges to its rules which is how she survives the frenzy flame ending. Since the /kill all command didn’t apply to her.
Oh shit iris of occultation is actually a really clever observation. Thematically it also makes sense that the younger sister would have to opposite eye to messmer's.
Melina didn't burn with the Frenzied Flame because she's basically a spirit ash just like Torrent (i'm sure af part of her ashes are inside Torrent's thing
@@son_of_the_heavymetal1142
Yet the thing with Frenzied Flame is that even spirits burn with its fire
@@son_of_the_heavymetal1142spirits can die to the frenzied flame though, thats why torrent flees and refuses to come out in the abyssal woods, and why his summoning ring is badly damaged at the frenzied flame ending. Melina cant be a spirit otherwise she wouldve died alongside torrent in the frenzied flame ending, Melina is something more unknown to us.
This is all makes sense, that's why St Trina says that godhood would be a prison for Miquella because the Greater Will will just send down another Elden Beast to turn him into a puppet thus cannot achieve what he's trying to achieve
Also the fact that Miquella had shed so much of himself by that time in an attempt to rid himself of the imperfections of his mother, that he even cleaved from himself St. Trina. And she was basically the parts of him that would even know what his new age of kindness would entail.
The bits of him that we eventually fight are basically what he became when he'd thrown away even his kindness and compassion, and that's what the Gate choose to elevate. He had always had the ability to bend people to his will but it seems he at least tried to use his powers in a positive manner, then after he failed both his attempts to cure Malenia and his attempt to either revive or finally grant an end to his brother, he seems to have just snapped and gone full mustache twirling evil mastermind, coercing and controlling people left and right in his quest to become a god.
Not if the greater will only cares about "golden order" and not the nature of the order.
The decline of Marika's Golden order was down to her hubris and treachery.
Miquellas order is far more mindlessly selfless, yet still based in order, so even if it is a prison, it's one that Miquella was aware of and clearly embraced.
It would seem...
I really, really like a lot of what you have to say. My theory was that Marika performed the original sin, the seduction and the betrayal beyond the gate of divinity by killing the greater will.
If you look closely at the divine gate you'll see Hornsent bodies on the main structure and outer layer but the foundation has no Horned bodies at all. I think that's very telling. So Marika's story begins in the Shaman village, where her people are rendered into a fleshy mass conglomerates. The divine gate construction was begun using the flesh of Shamans because of their flesh melded "harmoniously". Their inherent spiritual aptitude made for the ideal medium to construct the Divine Gate.
Enir Elim stinks of the tower of Babel. Likely GW and the fingers saw it and the gates construction as heresy.
So they name Marika empyrean, lines by Ymir about Marika being guided by the two fingers. Show that she was endorsed by the Fingers and the new Crimson/Cerulean Seed talismans depict the erd tree seed between two fingers. They offered Marika godhood and the means to have her vengeance in the Erdtree. In her powergrab as empyrean she finishes the Gate with the dead of Hornsent, seduces and kills the GW, plucks her rune from its corpse.
From this point on, the fingers are "abandoned" and it's a very, very long time before anyone notices. Ena tells us it takes tens of thousands of "moons" for the fingers to commune with the GW.
In this foggy period that follows Marika has 5 cursed children. Messmer, Melina, Margit, Morgott and Godwyn. Mostly with Godfrey.
Eventually the Fingers suspect what Marika did and name empyreans to succeed her. This is where things start to kick off, godskin hunt, cleansing crusade and eventually the shattering.
And then I keep typing more paragraphs that no one will ever read lol.
Margit and Morgott are the same guy. I think you mean Mohg, Lord of Blood.
I would have read several more paragraphs of this tbh :P
The Greater Will isn't killed. It can't be killed, it's God
Messmer and Melina are not Godfrey's children, they are the twins born under Marika and Radagon, likely her first born children before she ever meets Godfrey. The Greater Will is an Outer God and likely abandoned the Lands Between when Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Remember, she used Messmer to get revenge on the Hornsent *before* she ascended to godhood, as their bodies are used to build the Divinity Gate for her ascension.
@@LexysamaIllustrations the dlc story trailer explicitly says he genocide against the hornsent was after her ascension.
So, you're gonna have to rethink your headcanon a little.
I still believe that the shadowlands were once connected where the large center ocean is now. And the scadutree always makes me think there’s 2. I almost feel like the diagonal tree that’s being suffocated of its sap is the crucible and in the rite that Marika performed, the twisted tree started suffocating the crucible of its gold and transferred to what we know as the Erdtree. Then Marika veiled the shadowlands from the rest of the world and washed her hands. She stripped the grace of gold from the natives of the shadowlands. To be fair, the Hornsent turned Marika’s people into pots.
The twisted tree looks remarkably like the sealing tree used to dowse Enir Ilim in shadow. I'm absolutely certain the lower arc or Rune Arc is a major detail in Marika's lore. We see the horsent using all kinds of rune arc incantations, and the biggest difference between the dragon's elden ring and Marika's is the addition of the lower arc. Whatever Marika did, it has to have something to do with stealing something from the hornsent and using it as a mending rune on the old elden ring.
@@zephyruspringthe lower arc was theorized to have been the crucible as it was essentially the base of the Elden Ring.
I mean, iirc, Crucible can refer to crown sprouting, where a stump grows fresh sprouts from its top, and we know that the Erdtree is a [botanical] grafted scion (a new plant grafted onto rootstock, like a lot of citrus trees), and crown sprouting is an ideal time for grafting onto an extensive root system...
Most likely, the Crucible was the period of crown sprouting after the Great Tree was destroyed and Placidusax's god fled, leaving a period where everyone was trying to shape the next age by controlling the next Great Tree, all the while their forms were being influenced by dozens of different sprouts, suckers, and scions... And Marika won by killing all but the Erdtree, only to accidentally blight the roots themselves with her son's still living corpse while allowing the Erdtree to burn down till just the faded grace it once shone with was left...
The strangler could be either a sucker that she missed, or perhaps Godwyn's blight manifests differently in a land anathema to it, where spirits exist without flesh... Perhaps it's simply that her hatred of the Crucible didn't extend to the dragons and beast folk, so she merely banished their trees to that side of the veil.
This video made me think that since Placidusax was the previous lord of the Elden ring, Marika likely persuaded or created Bayle to attempt to kill Placidusax so she could attempt to harvest the means to create a new ring from his. That head might be the fifth head of Placidusax, which I believe is unaccounted for. He had five to start, he still has two attatched, Bayle has two dead ones still attatched to his back, so this could be the final head, which contained the golden threads.
A lot if this games lore can be understood via a understanding of our myths, religions, and from what I am seeing neoplatonism/ vedanta traditions. All is in constant state of being, proceeding, and returning to the one. That multiplicity is a grand illusion and emanates from the one. The one does not create itself but all subsequent things emanate off of it out of necessity.
Something to note about the Scadutree is that it was almost certainly created by Marika and imposed upon the people of the Realm of Shadow. Scadutree fragments are frequently found in front of Marika statues, and the item description says they are collected by people of the Erdtree. The only example I can think of of Scadutree fragments being collected by the Hornsent culture is the church in the Abyssal Woods, but since there is no Messmer presence there and the Shadow Realm Blessing mechanic exists to encourage exploration, I'm going to say that's a case of gameplay and story segregation. Also, Messmer soldier equipment is marked with the emblem of the Scadutree.
There’s also a fragment in Enir Ilim in a small shrine with a statue of a hooded woman.
I agree, perhaps there was the great-tree/crucible (primordial erdtree) , which was perhaps burned (leyndell ash, erdtree dew no longer being obtainable, disdain for fire in erdtree culture) or otherwise disposed of/altered, and then changed into/replaced by the erdtree, and subsequently, the scadutree. Of course, im just spitballing here.
I presumed that the Scudutree was created by Marika to cut off the realm of shadow from the rest of the Lands Between, just as the thorns do with the Tower. There are even what look like sheets draping out from the top of the tree which I imagine symbolise this shroud. Also, the Scadutree seems to look like it is actually two tree, and the dominant one is seeping sap with the light of the Marika's order. I do wonder if the second tree is the original tree of the Crucible that Marika has supplanted by the Scadutree.
@davidmingle5910 I'm pretty sure the ash in Leyndell is from a recent catastrophe, likely when Bernahl's maiden used the giants flame. The ash is everywhere in Leyndell, which means it post dates every era of the city.
@@Qarth56 The Shadow lands were part of the Lands Between, you are right there, Rau ruins are part of all those ruins we found in the lands between even have the golems, also how would messmer's troops will go to the lands of shadow if they were in the state they are now? Miquella needed mogh and die/morph in the coccoon to can travel to the lands of shadow, how such army will move so easily ? obviously before you could just travel there normally.
I'd still argue that both Hyetta and Ymir are wrong about the Greater Will creating the Universe
Simply because they are both clinically insane
You could argue "the one" is just a way to describe smth that had the potential to become life, like the first stage of the Crucible, where everything was still blended together
this is what I love about the dlc, it takes you back to bloodborne's main lore question: is it just a dream, or reality? In this case, are these outer god's fanboys and fangirls just high on substances, or is there something real to it?
Hyetta is quite literally a blind follower of the fingers, while Ymir presents himself as a scholar who studies the stars and has directly peered into void where it’s quite obvious the Greater Will (and perhaps other outer Gods) reside. True he gains some egotistical madness where he thinks he can supplant himself as the mother of fingers in place of Metyr, but it is obvious he is more knowledgeable about what’s going on in the world than Hyetta from a scholarly standpoint.
There are plenty of insane and heavily mislead individuals in Elden Ring due to the whole world being broken, so we have to divine some truth from unreliable sources. The one thing about Hyetta and Ymir both presenting the Greater Will as the original creator of the universe is that they both reached that conclusion through different means. Although I suppose it depends if Ymir learned this from studying the stars or from learning it from Metyr, which would ultimately be the same as Hyetta learning from interpreting the words of the three fingers. The Greater Will is the only entity proposed to be the creator of the universe which does make it the only known candidate (aside from perhaps some other outer God that people are just attributing to the Greater Will)
you don't get to ignore it just because it doesn't fit your interpretation of the cannon
The insane often see more than the sane. They see too much to behave what society deems the norm or correct.
Great analysis and certain Marika is the catalyst for all these problems in the golden order. Another lens to view Elden Ring through necropolitics & the monarchy impact on its society
i cant believe we still dont know what that cadaver was
I think the creators deliberately constructed mysteries and one of them is whatever Marika pulls out whatever she does. It goes unexplained but it adds so much margin to the theory crafting!
One problem here is that she isn't pulling out "threads" at all. If you look carefully she is actually pulling out nearly invisible cloth. She is also holding cloth above her head, possibly the cloth she uses to veil the shadowed lands. Think of the strange fabric the black knife assassins use, the fact that she is always depicted with a very deliberately included length of cloth yet doesn't have a similar cloth with her when we see her in person, meaning it must be an important symbol instead. If you can't see it, try to imagine you're looking at some sort of 'invisibility cloak'.
why would cloth be inside of the body of the last elden ring user?
@@crisunderwood8110 I'm sorry, I want to answer your question, but I'm reeling from the confident delivery of the absolutely gargantuan leap to 'that's the body of the previous elden ring user' when there isn't even a general consensus on whether it's godskin, fabric, or a snake! XD
I'm not even basing my statement about it being cloth on symbolism or whatever, I'm saying it's cloth because that is literally what is shown on screen and my eyeballs can see. Look closely, pretend they're grabbing a fine, sheer fabric with a golden sheen. They've of course created the 3D model in such a way that it's not so much sheer as completely invisible except for the reflected light, but even then the visible bits only make sense, as well as the grip, if it is a piece of fabric being pulled out. Think of dark velvet and how it's the edges of the folds that catch the light and shimmer in a lighter shade; this fabric functions similarly.
@@crisunderwood8110 Elden Ring user!?
What are you on about? We never see Marika in person aside from inside the Erdtree and even then it's her corpse.
@@Dankmemeslover69 Those are the times I'm talking about. That and in the cinematics. Seeing her model 'in the flesh' as opposed to the statues of her. In the statues she always has that big, dramatic arcing loop of cloth behind her, it's a consistently depicted element. But when we see her body both places there is nothing resembling the big cloth piece on or near it. From this we can draw a fairly solid conclusion that it is either symbolic of something (the reach of her power or something nebulous like that) or that it is a reference to something she did or used that those living in the Lands Between would be familiar with. Typical religious figure depiction stuff.
Could the body she takes the threads from be Metyr? Maybe Marika used the finger slayer blade herself? Stole the power to be the receiver of the greater will? But permanently garbled and warped the signal in the process? Idk, just a stab in the dark
There is something there because the eternal city was a Numen civilization and she was Numen. So we're the shamans
By definition, a crucible is literally
a ceramic or metal container in which metals or other substances may be melted or subjected to very high temperatures.
So the Hornsent tried to recreate this with the jars
wow that makes so much more sense. Wonder if that has to do with the reason why fire is taboo under the golden order
1
: a vessel of a very refractory (see REFRACTORY entry 1 sense 3) material (such as porcelain) used for melting and calcining a substance that requires a high degree of heat
2
: a severe test
He's ready to face the crucible of the Olympics.
3
: a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development
… conditioned by having grown up within the crucible of Chinatown …
-Tom Wolfe
His character was formed in the crucible of war.
Never realized that, so the Marika's Elden Ring era being born from the ashes of the Primordial Crucible takes a whole new sense. And that metaphor reapeats itself with the Erdtree being born from the Primordial Tree !
It also used to be used to refer to crown sprouting iirc, so it could also be the time between the Great Tree dying, and the Erd Tree becoming the only scion grafted to the stump and rootstock. A period of potentially hundreds of sprouts, each a slightly different interpretation of what the natural order and forms should be.
not super sure about that, the word 'crucible' is used very commonly in literature to evoke the idea idea of chaotic transformation, or the instability that occurs during the creation of something new. Not just 'being a container'. It could be true, and its certainly a cool coincidence, but it seems to me like a very circumstantial connection.
Nah, The Elden beast definitely came before Marika ascended
Correct. Farum Azula has depictions of an ancient Elden Ring, with a different but recognizable design, and Placidusax is named Elden Lord.
The Elden Ring (and Beast) has been held by previous Orders before the Golden Order. Metyr probably instructed Marika through the Fingers to seize it, in the hopes of contacting The Greater Will.
The greater will sent a star bearing a beast into the lands between, which would later become the elden beast. The beast most likely changes to go along with the age/order it represents. When Marika takes the threads you hear the elden beast in the background, probably taking on its new form.
@@spacefaringyoshi so you are making the assumption that the elden beast and the elden ring have always been the same thing, but we dont know that. it is entirely possible that the elden beat came after and merged with it or whatever. we actually know nothing of the elden rings history before marika reign. we dont even know if the edlen ring we see on farum azula is the same one, they look similar sure, and we know the ring can be changed so it could be. but it could also be a completely different ring.
elden ring takes a lot of inspiration from Christianity, and one of the biggest things Christianity/catholotism have done is whenever the moved into a spot and took over, they adopted tradition/beliefs of the previous religions of the area. Its definitely not out of the realm of possibility that this happened here, that the greater will didnt have the control it has now until marika ascended to godhood, and when all that happened instead of just removing the old they replaced it with their own versions of it all. meaning the elden beast came when she ascended and a new ring was created or the old absorbed into the new regime.
the crucible ring was a ring made of runes. It was most definitely the previous Elden ring.
Sure, it might not have been called like that, but if Placidusax was an Elden Lord, then the symbol praised by the inhabitants of his city was the Elden Ring
It may be true however that the Elden beast came after, either in an attempt to restore order from within after the fingers lost guidance, or to punish / control Marika and stop her actions.
We might even theorize that Marika was the one who severed the connection between the fingers and the Greater Will, and that she only played along after "reprogramming" them.
@leobaron9417 all could be true, we just actually don't have enough to do anything but speculate on these sort of topics.
Note that the first civilisation in Elden Ring... that of the beastmen in Farum Azula, back when it was still located in Caelid, and when Placidusax was "in power" they did not revere 2 fingers, or 3 fingers.
The revered a hand. 5 fingers. The whole, 2 and 3 fingers combined. You can find many depictions of a hand in Farum Azula.
That deity broken into 2 fingers and 3 fingers, well, it matches how broken and dysfunctional Marika's family is. It matches the erdtree and scadutree being apart. It matches how broken and shattered the world overall is, with for example living beings that have limbs from other living beings grafted onto them.
And there is no game ending where the 2 fingers and the 3 fingers together can be mended and everything healed. The player is just yet another Marika, continueing the unhinged path of either of these fingers.
The first elden ring's age of plenty is a mirror of an eternal heavenly life, which ended with the original sin (marika taking a fruit from the crucible tree). Its a retelling of the adam and even story
I think the body Marika took the golden threads from was her own. Just like Miquella was shedding parts of, and eventually his whole body to become a God, Marika did the same.
i think she killed the bigass dragon and pulled them out of a dragons eye
no because like he said that was the remnant of the last elden ring , so it needs to be stripped of the person that was bearing the ring inside him
Personally i see a snake. Also i think messmer is the snakes child, not marikas.@@__-fi6xg
@@GoulaLegameryeah probably the geq; a snake god and mother to messmer. Marika traveled thru litteral hell, killed snake god of death, and used its elden ring to become a god in her home world.
@@curtisfarley6558 could be melina/gloam eye queen's serpent form, since her followers and brother are serpentine- the threads being marika taking the rune of death from her to complete the golden order and separate the lands between from the shadowlands. Also could be why in the frenzy ending, melina has the same blinded right eye as the snake after she reunites with destined death & becomes the gloam eye queen again.
I really loved this video! Yes there were a few plot holes and a lot of assumption but i think it tells a very compelling story. However one point not touched upon is who the God of the previous order is (to whom Placidusax owed fealty). I saw a video (i can't remember where) that theorized the entity that Marika drew the golden threads from was a serpent of some form and the comparison was striking after you see it. You only see half of it's head but she's drawing the threads from it's eye (which seems to be where divinity is stored according to Ansbach referring to Miquella's eye, also based on the Sore/Scarseals, Messmer's eye and Shabriri Grapes) It being pale and white could also have correlation to the Base Serpent mentioned in things surrounding Messmer. I think this Base Serpent could have been the God of the previous order and Placidusax was their Lord. Marika killed the Base Serpent in order to claim Godhood (maybe with the black flame or with a black knife as she is said to be related to the Black Knife assassins). This is why she was so fearful of the Base Serpent being reborn in Messmer, it may also why the Base Serpent in Messmer seems so deteriorated and decomposed, because it's an imortal creature killed through ungodly means (Like Godwyn). The base serpent could also have some relation Eiglay and the God Devouring serpent but I'm not sure about that.
I think there's one puzzle piece still missing, that puzzle piece being Radagon.
Radagon is Marika, but it seems he might not always have been her. His red hair betrays ancestry with the Giants, rather than the Numen.
We know he first spent time as Rennalas husband before becoming Marika's Lord consort and at that time, he appears to have been a separate entity (because if Marika spent all day in Raya Lucaria banging the queen, I think someone would have noticed her absence in Leyndell).
My theory on the matter would be:
1: Radagon was likely a demi-god and child of the Fell God, possibly an empyrean.
2: The Greater Will directly took possession of him, elevating him to godhood, which is why the children of Rennala are demi-gods.
3: The Greater Will sought to remove all influence of the previous Elden Ring, thus ousting Godfrey and the Tarnished.
4: Radagon was sent to Leyndell so that the next Lord Consort to Marika would be one of Order as the Greater Will understands it.
5: Their children are born cursed, as both Marika and Radagon are vessels of the Greater Will, making their union an incestuous one.
6: Marika and Radagon merge. We do not know the exact point in time this happens. Them being one and the same is not commonly known, even religious scholars such as Goldmask and Miriel were not aware. We also know at the very least that their children still knew them as different people, as young Miquella gifted the Triple Rings of Light and Discus of Light incantations to his father Radagon, and was given Radagons Ring of Light as thanks.
Personally, I believe that this merger may only have happened during the Shattering, with Radagon doing everything in his power to preserve Order, possibly going so far as to forcefully combine with Marika, which would ironically echo her fate as a Shaman.
The main issue with that theory is that Messmer is a headache for the timeline. He is said to be an elder brother to Radahn, maybe even Marikas first-born and yet he has Radagons signature red hair. But if Marika was not with Radagon before Godfrey and the Tarnished were driven out, how would this have happened?
Is he a bastard child of Marika and Radagon who was conceived before or while Godfrey was Marikas Lord Consort? Or is Messmer's red hair not indicative of Radagon and maybe the heritage of another giant-aligned character who we do not know of?
Gj, hope your channel blows up
A very nice theory, really liked it. I'm so-what believer, that Marika takes "golden threads" from the dead snake, not a dragon and you didn't mentioned GEQ that surely connected to the Destined Death, but I hope I'll answer on my questions with your new videos.
If you are correct, that Marika is not legitimate, it's a big shame that we didn't receive it as a bold statement as "Marika is Radagon". So many unhinged theories, so many unhigned children...
i don't really understand what the word legitimate means here , u can take power and became the king without any real legitimacy she planned her ascension to the top and it worked out now who think she was legitimate to do that or not have close to no importance
@@GoulaLegamer For me, it's important to know NPCs' motivations. Marika's, the GW's, maybe Radagon's in extend.
If Marika was legitimate i.e. chosen by the GW's, then Elden Beast is a protector and after the Shuttering - Marika got punished. The GW's was betrayed and Marika changed her mind through time from "yes, I will be a God to the GW" to "no, I will destroy what the GW created".
If Marika was not legitimate, then Elden Beast is a watchman, Marika was always in a danger zone and after the Shuttering the GW had enough and simply 'arrested' her. The GW got played around, and Marika always had a plan to screw the GW over.
Just some speculation on my part, but for me it is a significant "what-if" moment that I would love to avoid, but alas, no clarity from Miyazaki...
@@snowpingvin1396
As a note, the Shadows are assigned to Marika and Ranni in case of treachery. Ranni is the one who doesn't want to be involved with the Golden Order.
Given Marika successfully betrayed Maliketh, who is guarding Destined Death, and then there is Ranni's orchestration to have Black Knife Assassins go after Godwyn as the safest option for a soul sacrifice while she sacrifices her body to separate herself from the material realm. The Black Knife Assassins are Numen women who are close to Marika.
Great video. You made some very compelling observations and drew what I believe are reasonable conclusions from them. I'm looking forward to your next videos to come.
One idea I'd like to bring up is in regards to the motive(s) behind Marika's decision to destroy Belurat and the Hornsent. While that certainly seems to be one aspect of it, I'm not convinced she did it purely for revenge. That feels too simplistic and obvious to me. The type of conclusion that just about everyone is going to initially come to if they've been paying even just a little bit of attention. I'm not sure we can count out the possibility that she was originally aligned with the Hornsent in some fashion and partook in the practice of sacrificing her own people with the goal of ascending to godhood. This is just one possibility based on the info, or lack thereof, we're given unless there is a crucial piece of evidence against it that I'm not aware of. Then the reason, or one of the reasons, for ultimately betraying the Hornsent could be that they no longer had a place within the new Golden Order due to how ingrained into their society the Crucible was. However, this act would not have been looked favorably upon Marika as Belurat and Enir-Illim would have still been considered sacred even during the age of plenty. Therefore, she had Messmer take the fall for her. We can take these next observations with a grain of salt but I've also noticed some possible real world parallels between Belurat/Enir-Illim and Babylon/Tower of Babel. One of those parallels being the Assyrian king Sennacherib's siege and destruction of Babylon being considered sacrilege among many Assyrians. Side note: Along with the Enir-Illim-Tower of Babel connection, the ancient ruins of Rauh has a striking resemblance to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
a theory: Radagon is actually an embodyment of the Greater Will, trough Marika, but he is no Marika, he is the personification of the Greater Will, that's why all the empyreans are actually connected to him, not Marika, and that's why he was guarding the EB, kinda like Miquella stealing Mohgs corpse to usit as a vessel to put Radhans soul, maybe the Greater Will took Marikas body to create Radagon or directly use her as an avatar but taking the form as Radagon
And then, there's the option of that since the Scadutree was the shadow of the Erdtree, and was itself without Order, that the latter was of Order. Which leads to the conclusion that Marika in fact did bring Order, but it was reserved for the Lands Between, while the Lands of Shadow were lift without. Another reason to "cleanse" them in a holy war.
This is one of the best lore videos I've ever seen for elden ring, It explained so many things and concepts I didn't even know were covered at all in the game and left to blind speculation. I get it SO MUCH more know.
I love your style of breaking down each bit piece by piece to get to the conclusions you do. It's nice to see people filling in the blanks wherever the lore might guide us!
Simply just for the fun of it, I have one thing about this theory that makes me question it though; Or I'd like to hear what you think about it at least.
That is; that (The Land of Gold & Land of Shadows) *Both* contain their own sets of fallings star beasts, and fingers.
& with this in mind, it's impossible for Marika herself or her accension to predate the fingers / greater wills intervention onto the lands.
Since, Metyr is the Mother of all 2 fingers and finger creepers - and she was the first shooting star to land, This canonically puts her a decently good chunk of time before Marika split the lands in two.
The current canon explicitly puts Metyr before the Elden beast & the falling star beasts, whom then later become the astel/natural born That we see in the base game/ land of the erdtree.
My resolution to this to still keep your theory intact, I would just say that Marika was coerced with the power of the 2 fingers to create the gate of divinity with the crucible, which at this point is the hornsent people.
And this still keeps intact the original sin of marika, the seduction of the greater will, and how the greater will can be cut off from the lands of shadows alone, by the removal of the erdtree - and secondly when the erdtree is finally burned in the base game, would those fingers also then be cut off from the greater will. The tree acting as their wifi tower to commune through.
Like the hornsent allegedly tried doing with the bodies of the Shaman and their spiral towers.
The only logical leap you need to make from this is that Ymir is simply also cut off in the lands of shadow, like messer and his soldiers alike. He believes it's abandonment - but he also wants his knights to believe that he is also somehow the only answer/ the only star in the sky.
He would've had no idea of anything passed the epoch of the creation of the gate of divinity, and Marikas Accension through the original sin.
He also believed he could take the place of Metyr, and birth new fingers so that he could convene with the greater will so needless to say he was also a bit lost as well lol
idk, maybe I'm just yapping. I hope I made some sorta sense haha
Anyways, Much Love & your videos are dope :)
This also explains the fingerslayer blade. The Numen attempted to free Marika with the fingerslayer blade. Maybe it was once used to injure Metyr as well. Maybe that was why the Nox were banished underground.
Coming from Reddit, nice video overall. Just an FYI, the timestamp goes before the name of the chapter in the video, not the other way around. Another tip: RUclips uses a worse codec for smaller RUclipsrs. Try upscaling the video to at least 2K to force RUclips to use the better codec, which should result in more detailed 1080p.
HI there! Thanks for coming over for a watch.
For some reason the timestamps just doesn't work for me no matter how I type it. But I will change it back and pray it works suddenly. Much appreciated on the upscaling tip, had no idea!
I'm positive the figure holding up the Strands is Radagon. Idk how it fits in with Marika and her betrayal and ascension or the birth of the Golden Order but every time I see that clip I see a male silhouette.
The lighting gives the gold hair a red tint which l think hints at Radagon.
His hair was described as golden before being cursed.
To me, she actually more resembles the androgenous statue you find in the Shaman Village that clearly depicts a person with female features, but no breasts. In the trailer, she also looks strangely flat-chested, though she's also turned mostly away from us to maybe misdirect us. I'm of the opinion Marika is a true saint that survived the jar process, and has always been an androgenous male/female hybrid because of being combined with multiple people into one body. She only chose to present as female when she needed to breed and make children, but changed to Radagon when she needed to seduce Relanna or lead an army.
@@SuperGrooby but they are two distinct people. It's not a matter of Marika simply "presenting" as masculine or feminine. Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon was trying to repair it. Marika saw the flaws of the Golden Order while Radagon was totally loyal to it.
The golden string decoration the silhouette wears around its arms are exactly at the same place as Marika's. Radagon wear them at a different place. You can see it with their statues.
@@luckyowl6432 in response to the lighting, the red tint is probably because the entire structure is made out of blood and gore. Also, if there is actually something in the game that suggests Radagon's hair was gold at some point, please let me know where because I want to know if that is the case.
@@impartialthrone2097 I believe both statements can be true. For much of their lives Marika and Radagon had no reason to disagree. Their motives were the same. It's only in the later stages of their godhood did their lives and desires begin to go in separate directions.
listening to the video and I just want to put this thought down, in case I forget before the video ends - if Marika's early actions, like her trying to heal an empty village, or splitting the Great tree into Erdtree+Scadutree, are described as having "no sense of Order", could it be that Radagon was the concept of Order, created by or assigned by Greater Will/fingers/whatever entity, to make some boundaries and rules for Marika? Create a sense of order for her.
And for whatever reason, Marika then decided to merge with Radagon and accept his pursuit of order. Being a shaman, who "melds with others easily", she'd be able to truly incorporate him into her own being.
Or more accurately, seeing how Radagon is used as a weapon by Divine Beast, it could also be seen as Radagon being a tool of the Divine Beast, the embodiment of Order and a vassal of Greater Will, crafted with the purpose of keeping Marika on a leash.
You make a really good point about Ymir not being a reliable witness but i think the new Crimson/Cerulean seed talismans show the erdtree seed between two fingers. The Erdtree being marikas manifesation of the elden ring. So that implies they endorsed her and gave her the means to create her Order.
Great video! Marika using the remains of the previous Elden Ring to lure in the Greater Will is a great idea! It
One theme I’ve noticed as well is the theme of intergenerational trauma and abandonment by parental figures. I think Ymir stopped too soon at assigning blame: the reason Metyr is unhinged is because the Greater Will abandoned it, just like how Marika abandoned Messmer and Miquella abandoned St Trina. Trauma is at the root of all of this: Metyr was traumatized by the Greater Will and turned to Marika, who was traumatized by the Hornsent (who are implied to have been traumatized by the Fire Giants). Marika passes this trauma on to her children, namely Miquella, who, in attempt to undue Marika’s sins, ends up retracing Marika’s folly and breeding more trauma in his wake.
Imagine:
Gravitational Stone Dragon, Glaxiosax.
I know right? Dopest idea ever i know.
In the mountain tops of the giants, the banners in the catacombs are of the 2 fingers meaning, she was fighting with their "patronage" and that the concept and "trademark" of the "Golden Order", was yet to be consolidated.
So yes, I'm willing to accept the hypothesis that Marika signed a "deal with the devil" (Metyr/2 fingers/Elden Beast) in order to have her vision be the dominant one in the LB, but at the cost of working in behalf of the GW wider vision of "order".
I think the main difference between what the frenzy flame and what the golden order seek lies in time. The flame of frenzy clearly represents apathy, nihilism and hopelessness, it seeks the same end result of convergence just to end it all quickly, but doesn't see a need to get there gradually, while the golden order seems to prefer a more gradual approach. I don't know what the golden order seeks with this clearly cyclical and self terminating world, maybe it recognizes, that disorder will eventually overtake order, so it is best to just keep resetting the universe over and over to keep the order maximized.
In short i think the golden order only sees eventual stagnation in marikas eternal reign, maybe in this cycle, its goal is somewhat aligned with the flame of frenzy, in that marikas world is already rotting and in dire need of a reset.
But what about what Melina said? I think hers represents the greater will, and why would it reset after all those millenia of trying to regress without burning it all down
idk how you haven't got more subs bro. underrated content.
Thank you for the kind words brother!
Agreed, did my part, subscribed.
Me as well!
The timeline doesnt seem to match up, not to mention the greater will is way too involved in this. The greater will almost definitely does not care or even bother with the lands between anymore. We are talking about a system where dung eater is a lord elect. Fundamentalism has nothing to do with the greater will, but an obsession of radagon. Not to mention this timeline is way too short for the ancient eternal city and the nox to have come and gone.
Great theory, but fundamentally mistaken i believe.
I like the idea that Marika and the off-line Two Fingers hacked reality to make a Garden of Eden, and the Greater Will was the ultimate kill joy.
This theory makes sense when thinking of why did marika all of a sudden want to search out the golden order if she created it ? “Those years of blind belief” wouldnt be a thing if she made the law/order.
In regards to the Golden Order, the way i look at it... Regression and Causality are two of the rings in the golden order fundamentals that govern how the universe words.
What happens when you put these rings together. Things happen, but they will always regress back. So if we actually look at the Elden Stars incantation, when you cast it, i believe this depicts just that. You have a core pillar, where stars shoot off it, but are pulled back towards the core. Causality in the stars shooting off, regression that pulls them back to the core.
This results in a universe where change can occur, but no matter what change happens, it will always TRY to go back to the state it was in prior. It will be pulled there.
This, i assume, is the golden order. If you just had regression without causality, you would have nothing. Everything would just be the same thing. Throw causality in, and you have this instance of things happening.
Now, there is a third ring, i suspect this one is something to do with harmony.. This would likely be the ring in the middle. This makes sure there isn't too much causality, and not too much regression, but just the right amount of either to create something that eternally ebs and flows. I believe this ring is somehow impacted by Godwyn's death, throwing causality and regression out of balance; which may have had something to do with the shattering. If we look at Godwyn symbolically, he is the harmonizer of the lands between. He brings peace, and existed in an age where there was an end to war. The moment he dies, suddenly all hell breaks loose. We look at Radagon, he attempts to regress things by repairing the ring, and Marika of course would be causality, who shatters it. I believe they are like avatars for these elements perhaps; kind of like in hindu mythology. We see this depicted in other empyreans also, which may be exactly what an empyrean is... An avatar for some divine concept.
I'll flip a few nickels in.
Radahn has the power of stasis. Not stasis on a micro or localized scale, but the powerful stasis in the big picture. Fates being stopped, stars unmoving.
Placidusax, in a way, has perfect control over Regression, since he can produce localized areas of time reversal. Farrum Azula exists within this bubble, and you use this power to repair the gold needle. Whether it's mastery over Regression, or an ability to erode Causality, though, is actually a question worth considering the difference between.
While we don't know the associated spheres of influence for most of the Great Runes, we have slight confirmation that Rennala's at least includes Rebirth, and know of the Rune of Destined Death. We have only bare associations of gameplay mechanics for the others, some of which just mirror the traits of their bearers, some of which are just kinda their own thing; it would be dangerous to read too much into those, but, being aware of them could help.
This is neither here nor there but I have a hunch there is a lot of ancient Egyptian mythology in Elden Ring.
To stay on the topic of your video I want to point out the creator god, Aten. As a god Aten was the sun and was often depicted as a sun with sunrays coming off of it that end with hands. Sometime the sun would also be shown with two much larger arms with hand, among it's many ray with little hands.
Aten was also the god of Akhenaten, a pharaoh who tried to replace the worship of Ra with the worship of Aten. His cult died soon after he did, replace with the previous religion.
Egypt was also the first culture to have a world tree and world serpent as part of it's mythology.
Finally there was a very common artifact found in many mummy tombs that was a carving of Osiris's two fingers. They were supposed to represent healing and protection and were called the two-finger amulets by Egyptologists.
Thats interesting
That is a lot of interesting points but one thing i will mention is that Norse mythology also includes a world tree and world serpent as well. The reason i mention it is because back before the game dropped many news sources were saying that elden ring was froms newest european mythos themed game.
Miyazaki watching this video: " oh wow, yeah, this makes more sense than what i had in my notes...let me write this down"
Reaching any agreement about these things is tough, however I appretiate the amount of work you put into clearly showing the sources of your theory. Even if I happen to draw different conclusions from them, linking various sources together on one topic is very helpful!
Regarding 'what is Elden Ring', I always thought of it as a circle of life, or a circle of blood circulating through body, and Marika as a "vessel" as in "blood vessel".
I think in that scene, Marika's Ascension. She plug the death rune from the Elden ring. That's her order, the world without death. After the things she experienced in her village, she probably do it as a revenge of her tribe. The corpse she is taking the golden threats look like a ooze, as her kin punished this way, that hair can belonged to the motherly figure in her village. If you look closer the rune of death have the similar shape. Also I think that gate is opening to the divinity which any or every outer god can give her the power she crave, at least the seeds of it. So maybe that's why her children have a connection with other gods. So basically she became a divine being because of revenge and she have 5 children with 5 different divine connection. Melina, Messmer, Milenia, Miqelia and Ranni. All of them carries a strong influence of outer gods.
So I'm gonna assume that, since Radagon came out of nowhere, Radagon is partially the greater will as much as the elden beast is. He's the one that stopped Marika from breaking the ring, and it's no surprise that it's HIS children who become candidates to be the next God
This! I like that you are presenting a new timeline. I never thought that the Elden Beast came to the Lands Between AFTER Marika ascended. Marika's Age of Plenty was her just freely giving healing and life to everyone indiscriminately. I'm not sure why this was bad even if it was not orderly, but maybe I just need to think on it. THANK YOU for going against the grain with EVIDENCE.
I do find it compelling to think that Marika didn't strip the Tarnished of Grace of her own volition, but rather because they were empowered by the last version of Gold. She knew that as soon as the new Order would come into effect, they would be stripped of Gold anyway, and it fits with her character that she wanted everyone to believe that she was in control, so she pretended to be the one to make the decision.
It also fits with her proclamation of the "new age, glistening with lyfe". Either she assumed that the age of plenty would last forever, or she knew that it would come to an end once the Greater Will sent its agent, but she wanted to claim credit nonetheless.
Furthermore it fits with the camera hacked close up pictures of the crown of the Erdtree where you can see the gold of the illusory tree creeping into the wood of the old Crucible tree, there has been many hypotheses of the Erdtree being burnt once before and this being the reason for its gifts drying up, but it makes even more sense that the new Order prohibited it from living forever, so now it's a dead tree that is nonetheless unable to die due to the removal of Destined Death, with the gold tree that the new Order tried to replace it with viciously clawing at it but being unable to pull it apart.
I also think that the golden egg that Radagon gave to Rennala has something to do with this, since it contains another great rune fragment that seems to be connected to birth. This happened before the Shattering so presumably it was removed from the Elden Ring in the same way as Destined Death, so once these were removed, the people of Lands Between slowly lost both their ability to truly die, and their ability to conceive new life, as is alluded to in the description of turtle neck meat, and as some people have suggested also the rituals going on at Windmill Village.
Game is literally about broken family at its core. Now I just need to know why Will, I mean the greater will, left his lady.
This dlc brought waaaaay more questions (and possible contradictions) than answers
At this point, I’m pretty sure the rupture is that the crucible was broken into the Erdtree and the Scadutree. That was Marika’s act at the divine gate and what caused the Great War.
While I may be wrong it doesn't really look like she's retrieving the threads from a cadaver, it looks more like some sack or similar container made from skin, very similar to the godskin apostles garments in fact.
If she was pulling them out of a cadaver we would expect to see some visible limbs or a head from that angle, the edges of the hole also doesn't look ragged or sporting ribs on the inside, it looks like the edge is folded over inwards, much like what you'd see on a sack. There are some bloody gashes or sutures higher up on the side of the hole though, so it might be a cadaver?
as soon as the trailer dropped it was clear to me the snake like thing is the fled god of placidusax trying to stop marika from ascending, while doing so it was killed and it's threads taken by marika for her to ascend with it explaining why the god never returned to him, also that snake was probably one of the most powerful divine beasts worshipped by the hornsent just like the hawk king and serosh were worshipped until beaten by ordis and hoarah loux
I think that Metyr dropped first, then the Elden beast, then she was broken while the Elden beast was dormant as rules of the world. When Marika shatters the runes, maybe even in opposition to the fingers and their directions as she wondered about the greater will" this woke up the Elden Beast who was probably just defending itself and probably disgusted with how the world had become. *shrugs*
I'm not sure tarnished losing their grace due to change in the elden ring is completely right though because the hornsent were related to the crucible which means they should also consist of the previous cycle gold/grace but Messmer was specifically asked to vanquish people who were stripped of grace which happened to be hornsent at that time which doesn't line up, it lines up as to why he fights us because we were stripped of grace through your theory but then why were the hornsent?
Awesome video, great to see all the effort you've put into the video and all the theories your uncovered. Also very nice presentation and script for the video, relying on dialogue and item description as well as the world building bits. Would love to see more videos from you!
the thing she's pulling the golden threads out of, looks suspiciously like the textures of the Godskin armor. and the little round thing inside kinda looks like a bald head. Maybe she sacrificed someone else to become a god, maybe Melina, or the missing Gloam eyed Queen who seems to have a deep relation to the Godskins.
I was thinking almost the same thing, and I'm surprised no one is talking about that. You can see the thick flaps of skin with stitches quite clearly. As per usual, it also looks uncomfortably yonic, possibly symbolizing a birth of some sort. Either way, we don't really see any of such stitched flesh/hide on any of the other potential candidates. Not on the Hornsent, dancing lion puppets, jar innards, or even the dragons. What we see there is not Marika tearing the old Elden Ring out of whatever dragon Placidusax was consort to, I think.
@@lilyayora it makes more sense if you think about how we don't see any signs of Marika discarding her own body like her son did, (maybe that's the sin Miquella is trying to fix by doing so? the only discarded part of her we see is some of her hair left in tribute to another female of her tribe) so in order to become a god, along with the two pillars of bodies(towers of soul sacrifices) that I'm assuming Messmer gathered for her. She also sacrificed another being who held the key to her ascension. Edit: also, the godskins did seem to be in super convenient places that would directly oppose us as the player, AND the golden order.
@@LeviKieffer Marika could very well have discarded Radagon as part of divesting herself of her "other self", and the whole jar ritual thing the hornsent did may have fulfilled the same role as discarding one's flesh (or in this case, melding it with others to reach a more divine self). We know that the rest of the shamans got jarred, so it makes sense for Marika to have also been a victim. After all, it's said that the purpose of the jar rituals is to help the shamans achieve "sainthood", which could be interpreted as being a capable vessel for an outer god. After all, the other two "saints" we know of in the game (St. Trina aka Miquella, an empyrean; and Romina, Saint of the Bud, a vessel for the rot god) are confirmed to be capable vessels of an outer god. This would also explain why the hornsent see her actions as a betrayal or label her a traitor. They turned her into a saint so that she could be a vessel for their gods, but unbeknownst to them Marika had already made contact with the Two Fingers in the finger ruins by her home in the Hinterlands. So, when it came time to ascend, she seized the opportunity to steal the strands and become a vessel of the Greater Will instead.
I also have thoughts about the golden wind at 0:08 in the video perhaps being indicative of the arrival of the Elden Beast. Perhaps even marking the point where Metyr was abandoned, replaced with the Greater Will's new envoy.
That's a lot of speculation, though, and the game definitely leaves it up to much different interpretations of events based on how you want to fill in the gaps. Miyazaki's always said that his storytelling was inspired of his time as a child, looking at the pictures in books but not knowing how to read and having to make up stories to fill in the gaps himself. I think it's fitting to use these games as a chance to craft a story that fits all of the given source material, even if it requires a bit of speculation and imagination.
I thought so initially as well, but the embroidery doesnt actually match the godsking armor/clothing.
The timeline would also be messy since its hinted that Vargram, a tarnished, aspired to be the Gloam eyed Queens shadow, which would put her defeat at the hands of Maliketh bit later than Marikas ascension.
But idk maybe Marika rose to power way before actually becoming a god and Maliketh defeated the Gloam eyed queen just before the scene in the trailer, who was to be the rightful new god or smth.
holy shit i just put that together, shaman are known for their ability to meld with other beings, and godskins "incorporate inhuman physiology". The gold threads she is pulling from the corpse is clearly blonde hair, which is a trait of the shaman.
The seal of the godskins looks *exactly* like Metyr's face, perhaps Metyr resented Marika's attempts at ascension, melded shaman with serpents to form the godskin, and sent them after marika? the timeline would be all messed up in that case....
Great video! it offers new perspectives i wasn't aware of and im interested to see where your theories go moving forwards, thats a sub for me👍
What's the reasoning behind Elden Beast coming after the dragons, if it's so clear the dragons also had the Elden Ring??? Marika also removed runes, as we also do in the endings, no need to make new one.
Also the description says "which would later become THE Elden Ring" not "an" Elden Ring.
Unless the Japanese is different I don't see how this would make sense
Previous ages all had their own order
Also I'd say Marika plucked out DD because she was afraid of getting replaced. It happened right after Maliketh was sent against gloam eyed queen
this theory makes so sence that its not a theory anymore
Great video, a lot I agree with, and small details you paid attention to that most ignore. My one disagreement, is on the Scadutree not being the crucible. I don’t see why both can’t be true: it was the crucible, and Marika grafted the Scadutree over it, just as the Erdtree was potentially grafted over an existing great tree
I wonder if the connection to the Elden Ring is what made the dragons turn to eternal stone. Marika and Radagon are both sort of half stone, half Scadutree-like darkness, as if they’ve only “recently” been turning into stone. Goes to show how ancient the dragons really are
My theory is that unlike Ranni and Miquella who had shed their empyrean flesh, Marika was a full empyrean under the two fingers, they guided her to become a god using the Divine Gate, and likely then betraying her would be Lord to create the Golden Order. Her actions were described as the seduction, the betrayal. I believe that just like how Mohg was betrayed and his body used to resurrect radahn I think Marika betrayed her would be consort, likely a being connected to the Crucible or the Age of Plenty, and used their body to create Radegon using a piece of her own soul. This is why Marikas children are born cursed, as her ascension was itself an act of blasphemy and a betrayal of the other gods by the Two Fingers.
This is it. This is the one. Completely agree, it's finally coming together.
Swear on god this video deserves more views…cants say more because i dont know more english im from spain tho (i know how to speak and understand english very well im just really high) but this is a masterpiece.. been talking bout this w 20plus friends…
I think the beast makes sense to come before and potentially be the god of Placidusax, considering that the beast has more in common with ancient dragons physically than humans.
Idk if ive seen a theory video about this yet, but my head cannon is still that the 3 fingers and 2 fingers used to make a whole, kind of fits with the whole theme of the game.
Maybe the greater will stopped contacting the lands between becsuse the fingers basically developed a split personality when the 3 fingers and 2 fingers were separated, almost how the shadow lands and the lands between were separated
Big big reach here but maybe the seduction and betrayal was Marika separating the 5 fingers (god hand lol)
Perhaps with the finger slayer blade
I tend to agree with your premise, especially in regards to marika likely stealing the crucible from the hornsent or at least this part of the lands between, creating the sprout the erdtree grew from. She was obviously the person who became a god here previously to Miquella, and it gives a good explanation as to how she ascended from being a numen (whatever the hell a numen actually is) to an actual god. It explains why the crucible knights of the shadow realm have no connection to the ones we fought in the main game, because they likely existed in a vacuum in regards to eachother. Though, I don't know if it explains why the shadow realms are severed from the lands between, as it creates some plot holes if that happened when marika ascended to godhood rather than a point where marika deemed the lands useless or if she was using them to store Messmer.
i think the greater will and one great are the same, and it's a black hole. the lands between is on the event horizon (golden ring) event horizons have shadows btw that makes 3 rings with a empty void in the middle like ymirs hat or miquella ring gesture, a dark void devoid of light like messmers eye. all things will end up getting sucked into the void eventually
have you noticed that when we free the stars they all travel in one direction..... would imply something pulling them in 1 direction to me
the whole thing is using science to craft fantasy, down to metals, space, plants, technology, me and you been thinkin similar ideas it seems, i also think the flame of frenzy is the greater wills influence, it wants to be whole again it wants to melt it down into one (black hole)
So what you are saying is the greater will hit the reset button when Marika ascended? And that reset button manifested as causality and regression. Its so fundemental; this perception and understanding.
Brilliant theory, well put together!
The Radagon/Crucible DLC will answer questions and provide good lore that most people have no imagination to think about.
The crucible is something different from the big trees and will probably not be at their roots, but thats the story of the next dlc.
Hey. Nice content details gathering.
I'm 100% sure there was a different version of the elden ring before Marika stepped through the door.
But that must not imply that there were 2 rings - it's more likely modified - obviously the subtraction of rune of death in which place order was set.
Our main goal is to repair the ring and there are 4 options of modifying - she did the same, but result was incomplete... Removing death out of a cycle system evolved to stagnation and stagnation to rot.
Also possible that after elden beat came in the order advised radahn to go to gravity school to keep more potential shit through outer influence out (like astel). Even if radahn himself was only motivated to ride Leonard even longer while getting more and more bully... But that's off the topic
I really think the betrayal was literal. Marika sacrificed something (concept) or someone, and the "threads" are proof of that sacrifice, to become one with the greater will or to be seen as worthy for the role of queen. We don't know if her duality started from the beginning or before the birth of the Erdtree. We have the hint of Mesmer's red head, but we can't say for sure. The sacrifice could've been also a first born of golden hair, and she showed her devotion and willing to be accepted as vessel (prior to Elden Beast) by sacrificing first child.
The Elden Beast was sent when Metyr was still getting signals. The Greater Will was the God regent for many many many ages. Placidusax was not a Lord, he was the "Elden" Lord. He is either waiting for his god "Empyrian" or his god the actual greater will. Placidusax is when most likely when the greater will abandoned the world. And it makes sense Placidusax species is extremely ancient as you can see his species buried in Farum Azula rocks.
An interesting video, although there are a number of points that should be clarified, such as the character Ymir, apparently this character is not a reliable source of knowledge, such as the description of his "hat", which says that the Moon is just a celestial body, although at the end of the Age of Stars it is not so. Also about those who lost grace, there is a character named FIRE KNIGHT QUEELIGN in the dlc and apparently he lost grace after the second battle with us, that is, it contradicts the fact that only those who belonged to the previous Elden ring lost grace.
I can dig the theory it stands and opens up to explain past events too great job!
For me, Metyr lost contact with the greater will simply because the land of shadows was veiled by Marika.
awsome vid and solid lore-wise. Cliffhanger you left was the thing that Marika is retrieving the golden threads from: what is it? Also I've been thinking... if the dragon lord was the elden lord, was there perhaps a god he was loyal to? And another thing, I'm not sure the exile of the tarnished is caused by the greater will, it might as well be part of Marika's plot in case everything went south. I remember a dialogue from Melina, saying like Marika wanted at some point to learn everything about the golden order, implying that maybe at some point the greater will stopped communicating its vision even to her. As to when, that's open for debate, so the exile of the tarnished could be Marika's or the GW's doing.
methyr likely was the goddess of placidusax, running away from bayle, by running away the greater will abandon her, I wouldn't be surprised if such clash caused she be unable to receive messages, considering that she is hurt and become unhinged, being beyond time, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the very reason they don't meet again, I think the fight with bayle was the spark that set in motion everything...
The ages of each cycle only seem to last 1000 years until entropy rots away the power of it.
1000 years is just metaphorical
@@ahkosorsomesaykosby9999 that's dumb a metaphor for what?
@@Samster-rv5uj A long time.
@@Samster-rv5uj like a long ass time
Shadow was born, could also refrence to Maliketh, as him being Marika's shadow.
I'd read the heck out of an Elden Ring novel if it had more answers. It's cruel to leave us with such a story and so many questions
So you mean to tell me that friends we made along the way can be defined as Elden Ring?
Elden Ring truly has such an incredible story. Piece by piece we put the puzzle together to reveal something that is still ultimately beyond our comprehension. I hope they make a 2nd ER and don’t Bloodborne/sekrio us.
This is the best video on Marika and The Elden Ring I've seen so far. Amazing work
Absolutely fantastic video! Move out the way Vaati, this guys coming up