Those green rampy decks are probably even running more lands than the other decks too. You could blow up a dozen lands from the typical landfall deck and there's probably more left in their library than the other decks even started with.
I actually just had a conversation about this. The only rule 0 I have on Mass Land Destruction is that. "If you play it, you are going to be targeted and should not complain about it."
Gruul landfall player ✋ I've faced mld a few times and always recover fastest at the table. Once my friend dropped that red enchantment that wipes lands on his upkeep and I was able to Sylvan Awakening on my turn. I've never felt punished as the landfall player by getting hit by it, only put ahead.
Agreed. Also, what’s with the “must punish green player” for ramping thing? Should we also punish blue players for having counter spells? Red for having explosive turns? Black for tutoring? White for removing things? Why are we punishing people for doing what the colours they’re playing just do. I can’t imagine a world where I get salty because of Three Visits.
@@noniddie Fair enough. There’s a lot of non-green solitaire decks though. Storm decks being a good example. They are usually Izzet. I play a lot interaction personally and have only one green deck, but would much rather someone was ramping quickly into big stompy stuff than storming off for 15 minutes a turn with rituals, cheap spells or low cost artifacts etc
I make this long comment because many of the times the words we use such as punish inherently develop this negative connotation that as the player on the receiving end have been hurt/harmed/stopped because of x.... however there is an understanding that the player who makes the play is trying to play for a reward. for example we can use the same definition for punish and for reward (break parity or return to parity) for example if we were to look at all plays as a reward for the player playing the spells and less as a punishment we can help alleviate the negativity associated with just playing the game... and that if a play happens we can have a conversation about wether or not that that play was the most "rewarding" play for the player and less about how it "hurts" by focusing on the player who played the spell that by all metrics is more likely to be received with open ears and acted upon because it becomes personal immediately.... example... the basic argument dont play land ramp because players dont like it.... well that wont stop people from doing it, until it affects them. and in the event of a payed entry they are not prevented at any instance from doing that which people dont like.... it may stop after event tables from excepting them but until that because something that affects them negatively it wont stop it. now if we look at it as a reward and conversate with the player and go hey your deck has a play style that land destruction doesnt help you as much as may think it does, you play on the same axis... here are some potential cards you can play that reward you in a way that is better than this. it makes their deck "better" and by extension increases their win percentage both thru deck design and thru understanding of how the deck plays... and makes it more likely to be implemented. if a player is playing land destruction and is not durdling or creating 2-3 hr games than that is rewarding land destruction. a perfect example for this would be kalia of the vast... land destruction works very well with that because you cheat creatures into play.... but if you turn 3 kalia turn 4 land destruction into open mana and a player removes your kalia in response, now we have a durdle event.... a conversation about waiting until to use your land destruction until you have the protection or there is no open mana is the most rewarding play... now i cant say that you wont have long games just because the artifact player land destructions and the land destruction player destroys the artifacts and now everyone has to rebuild... but they are playing on the axis that rewards (breaks parity or returns to parity) them. and those can be slogfests sometimes fun sometimes painful but there is a better understanding and in general more positivity associated with change.
@infinitedaryl2267 I understand that the storm stuff is annoying, but it's also necessary because otherwise those players cast 3-4 spells while green players have been 3 8/8 trample creatures or sth. on board.
I also don’t think green ramp is necessarily the “problem” people think it is, every deck ramps now. In my experience if someone jumps ahead in mana early it’s usually because of sol ring into two mana rocks
Had a brief, dark period where I dabbled in MLD in Kaalia as it synergies well with her on some levels and she was drawing heat anyway. But I found that resolving it often ended up in the other players scooping which didn’t feel fun for anyone, myself included. So I removed it and I disclose when playing her that I’m not running it so my opponents feel less of a need to archenemy me now which is good.
I’ve got a Temur Omnath Landfall deck, and a friend who runs Fall of the Thran in his Elesh Norn deck, and I’ve won literally every single game where he cast MLD. Unless you’re making it one-sided, MLD just stretches out games, makes them salty, and rewards the decks that bounce back fastest (IE landfall decks).
Exile their graveyard, and remove their landfall payoffs, that'll do more to stop a landfall player from popping off than land destruction. Take it from a guy who has to face a Chulane landfall deck on the regular.
My Zangief deck has Jokulhops and Obliterate. Not for the green player, but because zangief breaks everything, even your spirit and hopes. And when all else fails, equip the world slayer and say, "This game is over, ready to start the next one?"
Lol is this actually a thing that people try to tell themselves? I run an Armageddon, a Strip Mine, and a Wasteland in my Esper deck and my thought process was never at any point, "oh this is a great counter specifically for green land ramp." It was, "Hm these could be pretty decent stax pieces to slow the entire table and give me more time to set up."
Most of my tables are fine with mass land distruction if the player using it has a way to close out the game within a few turns... but if your decks gameplan is to cripple everyone including yourself, get that deck otta here.
Exactly right. At our table, playing out an Armageddon or similar is done as a means to protect a finisher by getting rid of everyone's resources, and we're fine with that. But we also treat it as a clock; you have two turn rotations after wiping out everyone's lands to win the game, or we're calling it a draw and reshuffling.
I don't agree with MLD unless the player van win within the next 2-3 turns. Other than that it's just a crap "strategy" that only the MLD player enjoys and makes for horrible games.
Clearly you should do the mature strategy of making an infinite blink loop with Agent of Treachery and just *stealing* all the land on the table. Far classier.
What a bizarre take. Destroying all the lands means that the landfall deck has the ability to get more landfall triggers. My landfall deck runs Zuran Orb for the express purpose of replaying lands.
We need an effect that does something like exiles lands entering the battlefield beyond the first or something. I also don't mind MLD if you have a plan to win quickly afterwards.
@@noahreiniger4955 it's just not good enough against landfall since it gives them back a land. I want something that stops the extra land from ever making it to the battlefield.
Or you know... if someone's ramping that hard you can just make them discard. Ramp doesn't do anything if they have no cards to spend it on. I hate discard but its technically better than land destruction haha
@@rocker1296 fair enough. He just has been advocating for trying this on Commander Clash, and while I'm curious how it works out, it's not exactly sure his points are valid
@@rocker1296 because it does work, as the local Esper representative I can attest MLD does stop the green player. The trick is timing it well and removing their yard when you do. Back in the day we used to have a green player that would always run Collective Voyage and stuff constantly and that ended the day I played Arma followed by Bog. The rest of the table didn't like it when they saw arma, but everyone noticed the green player that lost like 2/3 of their total lands wasnt a threat anymore and the rest of the players still had their duals and stuff so werent as hurt by it. The thing is its not "they have ten lands time to wipe" which is how a lot of people think it is when they hear MLD deals with land ramp. It really is waiting until they are down in cards because they are out of the ramp in hand, when you notice they aren't playing a land every turn, etc. That you hit them with a land wipe. Or if you use certain commanders that dont actually need to cast your spells but cheat things into play for free where MLD effectively shuts down everyones mana for a few turns while you are largely safe to go for kills.
I don't buy this argument. Any color can recover from mana disruption. The question isn't if green can recover from MLD but how fast that recovery will take. If the other players are running non-land ramp they are still ahead on mana compared to the landfall deck. The landfall deck will still have to use time and resources to rebuild and they are vulnerable duing that time. That's why MLD is effective it creates an opening to exploit.
I disagree. Back to Basics and blood moon get me scoops from the table almost all the time. Same with V dad. Yall just aren't leaning into the land hate hard enough. Also mld focused lists should be reanimating lands and ramping themselves. I'll say it again, you're just not leaning into the hate hard enough. Embrace it.
This counter argument is also dumb. Like, of course you don't Armageddon just to blow up lands. You only do it after establishing a board presence and making sure your board is the best one at that time. Armageddon works in aggro decks because they establish a board presence while the green deck is still ramping. If you allow them to then use that mana to cast big creatures, you will lose the game. This is where MLD comes in handy: you blow up those lands while they are still developing. And, if you managed to establish something like Adeline, she will kill the green player (and probably the rest of the table too) with the time Armageddon provided you. I understand hating MLD because people tend to misuse these cards, but arguing it does nothing to the green deck is either a bad faith argument or straight up dumb
F commander ...play MONOPOLY if you dont want to play magic .... Magic : a technical game with social aspects COMMANDER a social game with SOME technical appearance
Well then maybe we need more targeted land destruction that hit more than one land at a time for the cost you pay. Most targeted land destruction seems to cost 2 or more mana and/or a one for one trade.
I love you guys but I respectfully disagree with this one. Green land-based ramp usually goes totally unchecked. Having a deck that puts out a lot of Artifact or Creature ramp and then destroying everyone's lands is a good strategy. As always though, you should be able to win quickly after MLD or at least represent that you'll be winning quickly and handedly so that we can just shuffle up and go to the next game.
@@Rabidconscience The rules committee doesn't update the ban list regularly enough compared to the rate overpowered cards are released and the most certainly aren't banning cards for the sake of cultivating a fun play environment. Eternal formats require regular ban lists. Hell, even Yugioh understands this.
@@Rabidconscience Are you being serious? You said what I'm asking for is for cards to be banned and I replied with that the rules committee doesn't update the list regularly enough nor do they update the list in a manner most conducive to fun. Not sure what's hard to understand about that.
@@Cybertech134 because why the rules committee doesn’t ban more cards is a compete nonsequitur to me pointing out that you want more cards banned. Or are you going to claim you don’t want MLD officially banned?
![[EDH] Lessons from Decks I’ve Dismantled](/img/1.gif)
Those green rampy decks are probably even running more lands than the other decks too. You could blow up a dozen lands from the typical landfall deck and there's probably more left in their library than the other decks even started with.
I actually just had a conversation about this. The only rule 0 I have on Mass Land Destruction is that. "If you play it, you are going to be targeted and should not complain about it."
I love playing as the archenemy. The wins are spectacular. The losses are because it was 3 against 1.
This is the only sane response
Gruul landfall player ✋ I've faced mld a few times and always recover fastest at the table. Once my friend dropped that red enchantment that wipes lands on his upkeep and I was able to Sylvan Awakening on my turn. I've never felt punished as the landfall player by getting hit by it, only put ahead.
Agreed. Also, what’s with the “must punish green player” for ramping thing? Should we also punish blue players for having counter spells? Red for having explosive turns? Black for tutoring? White for removing things? Why are we punishing people for doing what the colours they’re playing just do.
I can’t imagine a world where I get salty because of Three Visits.
the balance between solitaire and interaction
@@noniddie Fair enough. There’s a lot of non-green solitaire decks though. Storm decks being a good example. They are usually Izzet.
I play a lot interaction personally and have only one green deck, but would much rather someone was ramping quickly into big stompy stuff than storming off for 15 minutes a turn with rituals, cheap spells or low cost artifacts etc
You wanna punish them as you need a fair balance otherwise they will just runaway with the game and no one but that player has fun
I make this long comment because many of the times the words we use such as punish inherently develop this negative connotation that as the player on the receiving end have been hurt/harmed/stopped because of x.... however there is an understanding that the player who makes the play is trying to play for a reward. for example we can use the same definition for punish and for reward (break parity or return to parity) for example if we were to look at all plays as a reward for the player playing the spells and less as a punishment we can help alleviate the negativity associated with just playing the game... and that if a play happens we can have a conversation about wether or not that that play was the most "rewarding" play for the player and less about how it "hurts" by focusing on the player who played the spell that by all metrics is more likely to be received with open ears and acted upon because it becomes personal immediately.... example... the basic argument dont play land ramp because players dont like it.... well that wont stop people from doing it, until it affects them. and in the event of a payed entry they are not prevented at any instance from doing that which people dont like.... it may stop after event tables from excepting them but until that because something that affects them negatively it wont stop it. now if we look at it as a reward and conversate with the player and go hey your deck has a play style that land destruction doesnt help you as much as may think it does, you play on the same axis... here are some potential cards you can play that reward you in a way that is better than this. it makes their deck "better" and by extension increases their win percentage both thru deck design and thru understanding of how the deck plays... and makes it more likely to be implemented. if a player is playing land destruction and is not durdling or creating 2-3 hr games than that is rewarding land destruction. a perfect example for this would be kalia of the vast... land destruction works very well with that because you cheat creatures into play.... but if you turn 3 kalia turn 4 land destruction into open mana and a player removes your kalia in response, now we have a durdle event.... a conversation about waiting until to use your land destruction until you have the protection or there is no open mana is the most rewarding play... now i cant say that you wont have long games just because the artifact player land destructions and the land destruction player destroys the artifacts and now everyone has to rebuild... but they are playing on the axis that rewards (breaks parity or returns to parity) them. and those can be slogfests sometimes fun sometimes painful but there is a better understanding and in general more positivity associated with change.
@infinitedaryl2267 I understand that the storm stuff is annoying, but it's also necessary because otherwise those players cast 3-4 spells while green players have been 3 8/8 trample creatures or sth. on board.
Asian avenger should hear this
I play a simic ramp tribal deck and straight up lost to a turn 3 opposition agent the other day. Dead in the water.
I also don’t think green ramp is necessarily the “problem” people think it is, every deck ramps now. In my experience if someone jumps ahead in mana early it’s usually because of sol ring into two mana rocks
Green? That’s an awful reason. I play land destruction because I like inconveniencing other players as much as possible
Had a brief, dark period where I dabbled in MLD in Kaalia as it synergies well with her on some levels and she was drawing heat anyway. But I found that resolving it often ended up in the other players scooping which didn’t feel fun for anyone, myself included. So I removed it and I disclose when playing her that I’m not running it so my opponents feel less of a need to archenemy me now which is good.
I’ve got a Temur Omnath Landfall deck, and a friend who runs Fall of the Thran in his Elesh Norn deck, and I’ve won literally every single game where he cast MLD. Unless you’re making it one-sided, MLD just stretches out games, makes them salty, and rewards the decks that bounce back fastest (IE landfall decks).
Crim entered the chat 😂
Exile their graveyard, and remove their landfall payoffs, that'll do more to stop a landfall player from popping off than land destruction. Take it from a guy who has to face a Chulane landfall deck on the regular.
YES! just own it! You want to play a way, be honest. If not, then with WELL OVER 25 THOUSAND CARDS AND COUNTING; You can figure it out 😅👍
I like cards that punish them for having more lands, like Price of Progress
My Zangief deck has Jokulhops and Obliterate. Not for the green player, but because zangief breaks everything, even your spirit and hopes. And when all else fails, equip the world slayer and say, "This game is over, ready to start the next one?"
Lol is this actually a thing that people try to tell themselves?
I run an Armageddon, a Strip Mine, and a Wasteland in my Esper deck and my thought process was never at any point, "oh this is a great counter specifically for green land ramp."
It was, "Hm these could be pretty decent stax pieces to slow the entire table and give me more time to set up."
If you're using land destruction to give yourself time to set up we will all scoop because you're wasting our time
This is why I play Confounding Conundrum and Storm Caldron!
Most of my tables are fine with mass land distruction if the player using it has a way to close out the game within a few turns... but if your decks gameplan is to cripple everyone including yourself, get that deck otta here.
Exactly right. At our table, playing out an Armageddon or similar is done as a means to protect a finisher by getting rid of everyone's resources, and we're fine with that. But we also treat it as a clock; you have two turn rotations after wiping out everyone's lands to win the game, or we're calling it a draw and reshuffling.
I don't agree with MLD unless the player van win within the next 2-3 turns. Other than that it's just a crap "strategy" that only the MLD player enjoys and makes for horrible games.
This. If you're playing it to end the game, fine, but don't use it as a scuffed boardwipe.
Yep. It's unfun and just wastes our time.
Clearly you should do the mature strategy of making an infinite blink loop with Agent of Treachery and just *stealing* all the land on the table. Far classier.
Well surely Acid Rain is okay right? Only hurt the green players? 😂
Or MLD with a follow up? Like any graveyard Exile in the game?
What a bizarre take. Destroying all the lands means that the landfall deck has the ability to get more landfall triggers. My landfall deck runs Zuran Orb for the express purpose of replaying lands.
Tell that Grim...
Laughs in Kamahl-Landdestruction-EDH
What we need is player specific mass land destruction >:)
MLD doesn't kill the green player's mana dorks.
We need an effect that does something like exiles lands entering the battlefield beyond the first or something. I also don't mind MLD if you have a plan to win quickly afterwards.
We need a 1 mana colorless Eldrazi that hates on any land entering the battlefield beyond the first that would enter on that players turn
There is Confounding Conundrum
@@noahreiniger4955 it's just not good enough against landfall since it gives them back a land. I want something that stops the extra land from ever making it to the battlefield.
Green should be playing land destruction instead of it being a counter.
Or you know... if someone's ramping that hard you can just make them discard. Ramp doesn't do anything if they have no cards to spend it on. I hate discard but its technically better than land destruction haha
So don't listen to Crim?
I mean, I think that Crim isn't correct about it, but I don't think that he's being insincere when he says that he thinks it works.
@@rocker1296 fair enough. He just has been advocating for trying this on Commander Clash, and while I'm curious how it works out, it's not exactly sure his points are valid
@@rocker1296 because it does work, as the local Esper representative I can attest MLD does stop the green player. The trick is timing it well and removing their yard when you do. Back in the day we used to have a green player that would always run Collective Voyage and stuff constantly and that ended the day I played Arma followed by Bog. The rest of the table didn't like it when they saw arma, but everyone noticed the green player that lost like 2/3 of their total lands wasnt a threat anymore and the rest of the players still had their duals and stuff so werent as hurt by it. The thing is its not "they have ten lands time to wipe" which is how a lot of people think it is when they hear MLD deals with land ramp. It really is waiting until they are down in cards because they are out of the ramp in hand, when you notice they aren't playing a land every turn, etc. That you hit them with a land wipe. Or if you use certain commanders that dont actually need to cast your spells but cheat things into play for free where MLD effectively shuts down everyones mana for a few turns while you are largely safe to go for kills.
I don't buy this argument. Any color can recover from mana disruption. The question isn't if green can recover from MLD but how fast that recovery will take. If the other players are running non-land ramp they are still ahead on mana compared to the landfall deck. The landfall deck will still have to use time and resources to rebuild and they are vulnerable duing that time. That's why MLD is effective it creates an opening to exploit.
Try out wash out in a deck that recurs spells sometime. Ive done nasty things with it in a budget kess list
Lands are colourless, they won't get bounced
I know, but it does a good job at hosing green in a grid is list
Lesson learned: Play more Acid Rain.
I run permanent control. Lol. Steal their lands. Lol.
I just love MassLandDestruction :)
No Shame, just Nukes
Always dress it up. That’s the point lol
Just counter The cultivate
I think anyone that doesn't like land destruction is a coward
ive never heard a single person day this. i dont think ppl argue for amageddon as a way to beat green decks lol.
I disagree. Back to Basics and blood moon get me scoops from the table almost all the time. Same with V dad. Yall just aren't leaning into the land hate hard enough. Also mld focused lists should be reanimating lands and ramping themselves. I'll say it again, you're just not leaning into the hate hard enough. Embrace it.
This counter argument is also dumb.
Like, of course you don't Armageddon just to blow up lands. You only do it after establishing a board presence and making sure your board is the best one at that time.
Armageddon works in aggro decks because they establish a board presence while the green deck is still ramping. If you allow them to then use that mana to cast big creatures, you will lose the game. This is where MLD comes in handy: you blow up those lands while they are still developing. And, if you managed to establish something like Adeline, she will kill the green player (and probably the rest of the table too) with the time Armageddon provided you.
I understand hating MLD because people tend to misuse these cards, but arguing it does nothing to the green deck is either a bad faith argument or straight up dumb
F commander ...play MONOPOLY if you dont want to play magic ....
Magic : a technical game with social aspects
COMMANDER a social game with SOME technical appearance
That's a wierd way to say you're jealous of people who stepped out of WOT's buy-the-next-set scam
@@DuvibdDuvusbudhd that´s a weird way to write weird....and who is wizards of the S ?! XD
do some research before mumbling around son
@@mircodurrbaum9064 me having typed my comment in a moving vehicle doesn't make you any less of a clown.
Cope harder
@@DuvibdDuvusbudhd say this vis a vis or stfu
I get that, but Omnath litteraly abuses the resource lands, and there needs to be a boardwipe that hits them too XD
Well then maybe we need more targeted land destruction that hit more than one land at a time for the cost you pay. Most targeted land destruction seems to cost 2 or more mana and/or a one for one trade.
I love you guys but I respectfully disagree with this one. Green land-based ramp usually goes totally unchecked. Having a deck that puts out a lot of Artifact or Creature ramp and then destroying everyone's lands is a good strategy. As always though, you should be able to win quickly after MLD or at least represent that you'll be winning quickly and handedly so that we can just shuffle up and go to the next game.
"iT's LeGaL i ShOuLd bE aBlE tO pLaY iT!"
No.
If you don’t thing people should be allowed to play it, then what you are asking for is it to be banned.
@@Rabidconscience The rules committee doesn't update the ban list regularly enough compared to the rate overpowered cards are released and the most certainly aren't banning cards for the sake of cultivating a fun play environment.
Eternal formats require regular ban lists. Hell, even Yugioh understands this.
@@Cybertech134 okay? What’s that have to do with what I said?
@@Rabidconscience Are you being serious? You said what I'm asking for is for cards to be banned and I replied with that the rules committee doesn't update the list regularly enough nor do they update the list in a manner most conducive to fun.
Not sure what's hard to understand about that.
@@Cybertech134 because why the rules committee doesn’t ban more cards is a compete nonsequitur to me pointing out that you want more cards banned. Or are you going to claim you don’t want MLD officially banned?
I think it's more pain for the not green players tbh
????? that’s what they said in the video
@@domotoro3552 Had no time watching just saw the title and responded
@@alMighty8989the video is a min long GTFO of the comment section 😂
Clearly we need a card that exiles all lands so heroic intervention can’t save them, and that green can recur the lands from the yard :p
A card that comes to mind is Dimensional Breach.
Bunch o whiners
These guys must not like MTG.
@mtggoldfish
Commander Clash & MTG Goldfish will always know better. 🥱