This is good but if the any dev play this game they would know the problem. But they dont play the game so they wouldnt understand why people been crying for months.
Multi-CE healer here. I never liked M+ because it feels as though you're being punished for daring to run with friends who aren't as good, or with randoms that you can't rely on. Also, I finally got an Unbound Changeling in the 11th raid week after running Mists multiple times every week. Implementing the first half of the video would make M+ actually bearable and I hope that someone at Blizzard realizes this MASSIVE opportunity for QoL.
It's so crazy that they didn't realize our care how much of a lose lose it is to create such a stressful and toxic environment. I'm brand new and joined to play with a Mythic + raider who didn't want to try hard, oh and she's my sister. So we're in a small guild and just sit done with Heroic. I learned so much and not from trying to memorize 8 different dungeon clearing videos. It's because raids aren't as punishing and we have like a core who was doing heroic while the rest of us were learning Normal. Even the OG raiders I know don't like dungeons because it's a competitive online multi-player game. Which actively punishes people for going off meta or making a mistake or, like me st some points, panicking as a DH and dashing off a cliff. I played DOTA 2 and was in the upper ranks (15 years ago) and the game got more and more toxic. I used to queue up some of the lower ranked players that got queued above and try to help. My favorite things in this game have been a Nythic + Raid leader joining a PUG I was in and breaking things down like a patient teacher. The other was dashing of a cliff, twice, and the dungeon group being supportive and is actually clearing (was my 20th day playing and 1st dungeon, so they gave so pointers as we went) super cool.
You‘re absolutely right! There have to be bad luck currencies.. Did Ara Kara 20 times, no Sackbrood but 5 other Items I don‘t need 🤯🤯 50 gold at the end of the dungeon is freakin insulting. Now we can easily get 1k gold for repair. Wtf!!
1-4 drops +50 per level 4-7 drops +75 per level 8-11 drops +125 per level 12+ drops 200g per level Gold is halved if you don’t time. This means If you time a 10 you get 1075g. Not game breaking, but enough that m+ isn’t a total gold sink.
11:25 THIS is fracking important: I always advocated for activities (like raiding) to be self sufficient/sustainable because nowadays people don't have time to play AND then also spend hours to gather the resources they need to be able to play. It's no longer 2004 and people have a life... If I commit to a 3 days a week raiding schedule I cannot be expected to spend the rest of the week to farm Valorstones, reagents and what have you.
Very well put! Hope Blizz listens to you! Also Greater Vault needs adjustment, doing 8x mythic+ dungeons a week for max loot slots per week, because way to much week after week after week, you lose the will to do any more mythic+. Change Greater Vault to have 1x; 3x; 5x for max slots reward, apply same logic to delves also! Hope you reading comments Blizz! Anyway great video Flame!
The other day I had a bug where that alt Z interaction happened where nothing was on your screen. Except I couldn’t bring it back so I continue to tank the dungeon and it was the best experience I had a long time. I saw things I’ve never seen before, it was so visually pleasing and immersive. I thought about that and if there was a way to make it less about looking at data and more about immersive gameplay, I think that would be a good thing for the game. It is beautiful, but people are so caught up looking at Data points that it goes to the wayside
this is why i made a dynamically hiding UI this season. with all the pop culture stuff in wow, i never thought it could be a game i could be immersed, but i was wrong. It's beautiful, and you can totally feel like yu're in the world. I wish they would lean into that. I'm sure a lot more people would play just to live in the world and not even touch end game, as some already do
Honestly, simply accumulating all the items that are wiped from the non looting nature of m+ would help so much with the repair costs. Normal/heroic dungeons have so much gold, reagents, greens, etc drop from the mobs that are completely wiped from m+ that simply having those appear in the final chest would help so much in terms of funding repair bills at the very least.
Auto loot would be amazing! Star Wars galaxies has had it forever. Don't make me click on anything to get my loot. With a huge radius for ranged players.
I have been ranting about this since 10 years ago and I think we all have had similar thoughts. There just comes a point where you have to decide when to stop and just accept you are not going to get that item you want. I used to raid with guilds that were pushing for being within a week or so of world first kill (cutting edge etc). I quit raiding for this reason. I didn't want to wipe to the same boss 100+ times before seeing one item drop I'd use. Now I play more casually but delves have me feeling a bit of the same lately. I have cleared literally 300+ delves (got the account 250 delves achievement several weeks ago) across 6 characters at around 619 ilvl now. I have yet to see some of the items ONCE. Some of the ones I wanted the most I only got a track lower from the vault on a week I didn't do 8 delves. I don't play any of these characters now. I do alts to around 610 ilvl and stop before more of this kicks in. I know I'd LIKE to play more but without something deterministic I'm not going to suffer beyond 300 delves. And delves are fun for me. Something chill I do after work. But I'd rather do something else or at most play an alt. You know the WORST part of all this for every player: we know we won't even use any of this stuff I February. We will be going through it again. Now that, THAT, is the demotivator for me.
At the risk of giving unsolicited advice (which i'm totally doing, btw), have you ever tried other mmo's? I played WoW from Wrath until Legion consistently, then didn't play most of BfA, only a few weeks of S-lands and only came back to D-flight at the end. I finally got tired of everything you just said and decided to try other games. I'll be honest, alot of MMO's are kinda shit imo, but I found things to love about GW2 and ESO. I like GW2's combat, world events, and transmog system but I'm not a huge fan of the story-telling style or the "free-for-all" way you level up. Then in ESO I LOVE the player housing, I love that I can craft all my gear and make it end-game gear (same in GW2) and that gear doesn't become invalid in 4 months. ESO has kinda poopy combat imo (it's similar to skyrim where melee attacks feel kinda weightless and floaty) but everything else about the game (including story) is top notch. Both of the games have a ton of rewarding things to do for casual solo players that actually contribute to your power level. I dunno, sorry for the long ass novel but I saw myself in your comment and just wanted to throw the idea out there. o/
@@MarcelianOnlineyes bro. Currently PvP is in ruins. The entire reward system is redundant be it for players like myself who are RBG Heros or any casual who just wish to get some mogs. I wish Blizz would hear us someday and act
They won’t until we abandoned the game again. This is an ideological commitment of theirs. They don’t want to see mad players getting rewarded. If some keyboard turner can get 630 Guard they consider that a failure.. they consider that design something that needs to be fixed We are all running around like yay dragonflight season two and three has saved the game and the dabs are looking at it like a terrible mistake and wondering how they can fix it as quickly as possible
Fantastic video, mate! ❤ It's always amazed me how Blizzard, after all these years, refuses to reset the whole M+ concept and rebuild it from scratch. There are countless ideas for improving Mythic+ system across the forums - some better, some worse - and yet Blizzard always seems to think they know best. Sure, not too many players fully grasp the long-term consequences of their suggestions, which could potentially negatively impact the game. It definitely requires some balance between healthy user feedback and experienced devs input. But still - their denial to improve based on what people truly enjoy is flabbergasting and sometimes even depressing. Guys, have some faith in us! If it backfires - well, shit happens, but - for the love of God - at least you tried. Tear this system down and make it enjoyable and fresh experience.
About M+ itens vendors: use the Blizzard ranks and crests for that. Exemple: if have score equal 500, you can buy Adventure 1/8 itens, if have 3000, myth 1/6 itens, using the respective crest to buy. And remove valorstone, dont makes sense have two coins for the same thing.
Monk here as well, cleared hc raid every week, got the contract only last week, I was getting desperate. But still, ~80 runs in grim batol - no skardyn’s grace
@15:20 I just want to point out that this point would be true for Monk's Mystic Touch rather than Battle Shout. Battle Shout is one of the very few redeeming qualities of Warrior, the buff will make it so that every single Strength or Agility class regardless of damage type will have 5% more AP.
Stellar points. Most MMO's operate on the carrot on a stick dynamic, but with WoW, the carrot is often withered and moldy. The risk/reward isn't worth the time, and I laughed when you brought up how pitiful the rewards are in Mythics. What right minded adventurer would continue dungeon diving if the rewards couldn't even cover the price of the adventure?
If we can pick our key what will happen is early in the season you will get people doing them all for KSM but then later on people will only be running the same 2-3 keys to farm crests and you will see literally 0 groups for the other keys.
There are dungeons I legitimately don’t do even if it had a bis item because it sucks. I run dungeons for my enjoyment, if I’m grinding bis I’m grinding bis but if I hate 1 dungeon I’m never going to push that dungeon ever. Choosing keys just lets me do fun dungeons, like I loved academy in DF, and would constantly Que for it because it was fun.
@@greentang6375 the thing is typically everyone likes the same dungeons, not the hard ones. So as I said there wouild be basically no groups for these dungeons ever.. and if you needed something from it or were late to the season and needed KSM you would be waiting forever to get into said dungeon or maybe might never get in at all.
@@artradies that would likely never get filled. It's already hard enough to find a Grim Batol right now for instance but people have to do them to push their keys etc so it keeps some in LFG still. With a pick your own system it would literally be all the same few keys after the first couple weeks.
This is actually an argument for being able to give proper feedback to blizz. If they see 1-3 dungeons never getting any runs maybe they would actually make an effort into making the dungeon fun.
Let this be very clear, I want key depletion to be removed, but I can give you the reason why Blizzard placed it in the game and kept it in the game for all this time, They said this in the official Blizzard interview with Ian Hazzikostas: "The depletion of mythic keys exist so lower keys are still in rotation, if there is no key depletion then lower keys don't exist anymore over time as with every weekly vault players get a mythic plus key equal to their latest m+ they ran previous week." That is what Blizzard said, no one has offered a solution for that issue yet.
In a world where keystones don't deplete, I could see the difficulty selector becoming like delves. Wanna run a NW 5? Just go there with your group and do it, assuming you've cleared a 4 or higher for that dungeon already as the leader/m+ dungeon starter.
The solution is that people play alts. Not all my characters will be able to do a +10, some may be at a +5, while others are starting at +2. My character running a +10 is never going to go back to do a +2, depletion or not, so there is no need for depletion.
On the keys topic, you can't really not deplete the key, that way no one would do lower dungeons anymore and people would just get stuck with no one to play. Everyone would just go 10s. Also, not having a different key will make people just go for the easier dungeon or the one that you want the most, IE the one that drops the mega trinket. The other dungeons that maybe have niche items would barely have people in them. Imagine Arakara right now, 90 out of 100 dungeons would be it because of the trinket. It's a good idea, but I think it has huge problems. I don't like this system either, but I don't know if thats the answer.
I'm a Warrior, and I love playing this class, but you are RIGHT! Please make the changes you're talking about! PLUS: "Disrupting Shout" >> interrupts all spellcasting within 14 yards and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 6 seconds. Available for ARMS, FURY, and TANK! Bring back the Pandaria Warrior rotation!
Spec difficulty fix: Make a billion mechanics that 1 shot dps if they fail. Make heal/tank deal with constant and less spiky mechanics. If they get 1 shot: blame yourself (less toxic) If they die slower (healer sucks and know its him (cant blame dps)
The entire mythic system is a great in theory, terrible in practice scenario. it's punishment for the sake of punishment on all accounts. On top of the mythic io score which breeds elitism furthering the tilt and divide between old and new players. This game is supposed to bring people together and I would like to see it do that again.
They are past the point of return on that. They have allowed things into the game they should have never allowed, and then balanced content around it, for both PvE and PvP. Addons for one. The second Blizzard started balancing raid difficulty around third party scripts, the designer should have been fired and all changes stopped until they purged the addons from the game systematically.
Flame, you and Marcelian make such good content. Keep it up!!! Also I would love to get my character done in your HD art. How can I go about doing this??!!
@Marcelian BROTHER YOU NAILED IT HERE! I have to be honest, I rarely visit your videos. Although they are great and well polished, and fit the grass roots player, I just find it’s not my style of video in some ways that I can’t particularly put my finger on. But this video, this is exactly the type of thing I’d love for them to try. You really are on to something here and I just hope Blizzard watches this as well and gleans some ideas if not all of them. You got a sub out of this one. TY and keep up the good work.
Someone else made a point that key depletion equivalent for raiding would be like if u fail a boss, u have to rekill the previous boss just to reprog the boss u failed. Cracked me up.
In DF, I worked with a group on a Mythic 0 for the first time, and we finished and earned our rewards. It was challenging and we took several tries on certain bosses. In the end, we got a +3 key to a completely different dungeon that we haven't even tried yet. There was no incentive to move to that other dungeon. I just let that key die and didn't go back. That wasn't progression, that was a RNG shift to a new challenge that didn't even have the rewards we were interested in.
I also got some Ideas to make pugging a lot more bearable 1.We need some sort of M+ trial for People to be able to enter at all, Something like proving Grounds that shows you all the Affixes this Season and how your class can or cant deal with them. 2.At Season Start you should have to do each Dungeon 1 Time on M0, so you at least have a minimal understanding of the Dungeon 3.Instead of Keystones, use the Delve level System where you have to do +2 first to Unlock +3 and so on and you just can choose them from a Menu.
I was thinking exactly you're last point, if you need to do T2 then T3 would be greyed out, then T3 unlocks and you do that to unlock T4 and so on. Would be way better and solidify the mechs in people's minds, there needs to be a way of getting more DPS players to get groups though
This only applies to the worst players, or super casual players. I have maybe 1 in 25 people in my keys that brick it. Other times the comp just cant time the key, ie group leaders fault for making a comp that cant complete it. I’ve timed 30 10-11 keys and another 45 12-14 keys as well as my first 15 key the other night.
@@kevinc8955 That's just the nature of pushing very high keys as he stated 14+. On a more casual level of 10s i belive it's very well possible to complete with pretty much any comp if the players are experienced enough
Another idea for the item vendor was like, after x you can purchase a champion level item, after x coins and the champion, you can upgraed to hero and so on. This way they would make us grind nonetheless but with a fair exchange
I tried to link this video on the WOW forums and got flagged for spam. I think this video should be seen by as many wow players as possible and eventually the devs.
honestly, 10man mythic or like 12man would be a godsend for so many people including me. Its incredibly difficult scheduling 20 people of similair skill and motivation and 1 person missing kills the raid night.
+1, just make it flexible like any other difficulty. If they want it for RWF then just implement it so it becomes flexible after some time of the race being over. Would love to play it without it being so much of a chore to get 20 ppl to do so
I so much agree. I unsubbed yesterday because I hit a wall. I can't move from 11s to 12s becase difficulty change is so steep ppl won't take you unless your rio is super high. You can only do it of you got good guild mates or own grp. It's alos too punishing for ppl to take a risk. I did one 12 only because some pumped guys accepted me miraculously and we did it. But that's it. Trying to get on a key for hours. Nah sorry. Got lots of other games to play that I paid for and never played. I'll come back to next patch with raid. Oh btw. I can't do mythic raid too because of player limitation and lock that ruins your week if someone leaves. I dont do this with guild because of the raiding hours. I prefer late evening to night which guilds don't do. So yeah.
wow! You spoke some TRUTHS!! very well said!. I enjoy raiding quite a bit, but my time is very limited, so when I get into a raid and a couple of wipes happen, walking back to my body takes so long that eventually I can't finish the raid because of all the time we wasted walking back. But yeah, you hit on A LOT of great points.
You have some solid points here. I am surprised you didn't mention the three chest from legion. That was actually really fun, and bigger chances for trinkets etc. :D
I've thought since Wrath that they could fix the RNG simply by adding a modifier based on number of attempts. Say a drop has a base drop rate of 10% and you gain 1% every attempt until it becomes a 100% drop chance. It could be applied differently depending on the item, things that are meant to be rare like mounts could get no modifier, but things like tier sets need to be 100% before they become obsolete assuming that you are doing weekly runs.
You are totally right!! I switched from DPS to Tank, and it's really energy-consuming, and so many leavers if they die twice then they leave. That's driving me crazy!
But they’re also losing out on long term sales because it might keep is around in the short term, but within a couple of months, ppl grow fed up and frustrated. So having these changes would boost their revenue quite a bit imo
I would love to WANT to play more instead of feel like I have to. It’s a mistake to make the game feel like a chore, when really part of me loves mythic+, but it’s just bogged down with so many dumb decisions.
Right and wrong. Imagine alts were easily gearable and not restricted through weekly vaults (if you play m+ only) so many people would play many different alts which also means more time played
Great video and great points! I wanted to add into the whole “meta” problem that lingers too as you move up into keys: Maybe Blizz needs to make their season rewards for the top 1% of class and spec (or class and role) VS the 1% of all players who decide to play nothing but meta comps. Honestly, I cant remember a time when M+ just felt so bleh. My friends are burnt out and I’ve had to pug my way through my keys. Playing fury has been rough, even starting my own group waiting for a tank and then a healer is tedious. They definitely missed the mark this season and they just keep doubling down on the rng on top of rng.
I have the fix for the dungeons switch to Torment like system where the way you unlock it similar to torghast but everyone has to have starts at 1 has to do each tier each week and once you unlock for the week its fine, Resets every week. Anyone who wants to lower can and will unlock that tier because the person who is the group leader is the only person need to unlock higher tier if everyone else hasn't done it yet, Also randomize loot table or rotating loot between unknown 3 different loot tables in a dungeon and putting them on 2hr timeouts so another person has the be group leader so prevent same person from spamming it requiring ever person to be involved. Have special rewards for completing all of said tier or ranking up to max in each dungeon like 2k , also the loot can change based on timing keys, (base being 610) negative time - 606 Plus 1 Time -- 610 plus 2 - 613 Plus 3 - 616 and you could do this for all tiers of the dungeon. Upon selecting tier similar to torghast it pops up for everyone to agree , upon start if someone leaves after just like normal dungeons but longer puts you on the 2hr wait timer for being a quitter. Add Dungeon reset popup to avoid the timer if 3/5 of the group agrees no penalty. More epic more involved dungeons ^^
You forgot one of the simplest ways to improve the long queues on M+. Just allow us to queue for more than 5 groups. If we could queue for 10 groups, the wait times would be lower as there are more chances to get invited.
Instead of a deterministic for loot, they could add an option when you loot to choose between 2 different gears. For casual players, depletion is the main reason why you do limited training, because you always have the fear of losing the key level (I'm not saying this is entirely rationnal but so is human).
Excellent video. I had a whole essay written up to convey how accurate this whole thing has been, but I deleted it cause it all sounded whiny. 100% on everything in here.
This, This is EXACTLY why i do not like to log on to retail anymore and just drop my time into the classic versions of wow. Thank you for publicly adressing these issues.
Why can't blizzard go all in on a support role separate from DPS, TANK and HEALER. 6 players per dungeon, and the support role can have many classes suited towards taking aggro off the tank, or alleviating pressure on the healer by having that support spec get instant flash heal procs while doing their rotation, or a dps support role that can help interrupt spell casts and bump up the dps' numbers.
I'd love if they reintroduced mandatory crowd control in dungeons. Make less trash packs, but each pack more worthwhile to defeat. I'd love if delves, m+ and raid all got loot on par to each other, so you can pick what you like.
instead of random dungeon keys, just remove the dungeon restriction from the keys, so the same key would work in all dungeons and only the level would change
I feel like they definitely need to stop depleting keys in mythic plus. And also, they absolutely need to add a permanent deterministic loop system into the game now and moving forward forever. Meaning, if you do a piece of content, you get rewarded badges that you can buy any piece of gear you would like. End of storyyou can still have world quest, and even have them drop a piece of gear that will save you from having to use a token.
I played back in wrath of the lich king and you would get badges of frost from the raid and take it to Dalaran and buy the tier gear from the raid i never understood why bliz stopped doing this. Yes the bosses could still drop the loot as well but also as a form of bad luck protection the boss drops tokens you can use to buy the items you want.
I would like to thank you for taking the time to present all of these suggestions for the M+ players like me :) They have to introduce tokens ffs, it's a no brainer, it would help a lot. Also, having tanks and healers feel like doing a 2nd job instead of fun is the biggest issue here I think. My VDH is at 2600 io and it's really hard to stay alive, no mistakes allowed or I"m dead on the floor in 0.5sec. Dont think it's helping having more tanks. FInally, in Gw2, doing the same as M+ is the most profitable thing you can do in the game (fractals). I dont understand why it would not be the same thing.
One method of buffing tanks/healers I really liked was from Mists of Tirna Scythe. If you went out of your way to have a herbalist in the group you could take down a pathway and gain temporary buffs to damage, healing and damage reduction. One thing I absolutely hate is the little buffs you get in LFR Nerub-ar Palace. It feels so pointless to get despite them being everywhere. Maybe I'm just not seeing the benefit. One other thing I would ask of Blizzard would be to have an ignore item option. If I'm going into a dungeon looking for a weapon, I want the option to ignore the trinket which isn't good for my class that constantly drops. Also, every time that item wouldn't drop, increase its drop chance by lets say 5%. I'd also bring back Warforged/upgraded gear for non-mythic/raid gear. It's hard enough to gear enough on a new character for heroics, having the option to get a piece of gear in normal dungeons that may be 565 ilvl to help us get to heroics would be a massive boost. Not to mention it would help with rings since they are so expensive on the ah. Lastly, just buff the knowledge points gained from crafting professions. Or make them easier to get. My tailor is stuck at something stupid like 150 available points, that I can only gain maybe 15 a week, whereas my gathering professions already are maxed out. Just give me a chance to gain a knowledge point when crafting gear. That's all.
I don't know who you are; I never even heard of you or seen your face before. But Sir, you have earned my sub and my time. Epic video, right on the wounds, and most importantly, its been aloooooong time since I laughed this hard. I just want to say thank you. really, from the bottom of my heart. You made my day.
110% would solve alot of issues. If the vault is so rng aswell, let us either get tokens so we can purchase the thing from the raid eventually or let us choose what slot we want to have in our vault. Imagine being a m+ only and the last mythtrack item you need is bracers but u never get it or whatever. I only needed the ring from the vault from queen but I missed when my guild killed her on hc so I had to do full normal and skip hc all together cause the chance of getting the ring would be lower if I did any hc bosses cause there was almost no pugs that cleared queen hc at the time.
I agree with all of these especially the loot part. I did over 40 mists to get the changling trinket just to get a champion track helping a friend with a alt😭
I’ve done grim batol around 40 times and ara kara around 30 times. Gale of shadows and the ara trinket has yet to drop for me. I’ve gotten the green egg trinket 3 times… It’s so damn frustrating. Especially when 4 of my friends has had the Gale of Shadows for weeks is demotivating
Love the loot ideas, the depletion idea, and the mechanics ideas! No RNG on dungeon would have most people farming the fastest/easiest one over and over for crests. Leads to burnout, makes it harder for non-meta to find keys when they will already be more rare. IMO of course, seems to makes sense though. Also, I freaking love BRD raid... I run it even while saved just fun lol
hei, i did 60 grimbatols till i got the trinket (mark of kardros) , and it didn't even drop to me - i bought it off someone else. and hei, now around prob around 70-80-90 grim batols in, still didn't drop it myself. but, at least , this is the best wow has ever been (overall)
Absolutely agree with everything you said, as someone who dosent have time for raids m+ is my end game content and right now its pissing me off due to how much time i spend either looking for groups or failing keys and having to go back to 8s and 9s
No sir you didn't fix WoW at all. You fixed "the retail player experience", let me explain. Okay M+s for instance are fun, I myself am a hardcore M+ pusher. However I believe that this highly competitive content is very niche and shouldn't be the main focus of an MMO. Same for raids or PvP, okay those are fun and should represent goals for the players but shouldn't be the core of the game. What WoW really misses is the leveling experience. To me classic WoW is a real and enjoyable MMO, and retail is just so messy and badly designed arround the top 1% of players. WoW should be focused arround a slow leveling experience with difficulty in the quests, the zones and the dungeons while leveling ! At level maximum (which would include a small proportion of the player base), ok you could play some M+s if you want but this content is way too inaccessible to be played by millions of players. But at this point the game has just stacked so many layers of sh...t that what they should do is closing retail WoW servers and start up a WoW 2.0 with a return to the old MMO principles. I think you have no idea how deep in a niche you are when you play M+s, don't expect any player to enjoy M+ without having played the game for several years. Everything is confusing for new players and it leads to frustration because it feels like the game is meant to be rushed, there is 0 difficulty in the game. Actualy there is one : understanding the game. Best regards
As someone who have done Grim Batol and Stone Vault 30+ times and still no neck/trinket drop i have to agree on gear vendors. It's so frustrating to not get anything from clearing dungeons. I legit pondered quitting because of my bad rng.
Agreed!!! This was my topic on forum and for 100 replies and it got delisted and closed without any reason. I am happy I quit : I’ve finally decided to step away, and I wanted to share why. The current state of healing, Mythic+, and the community has pushed me away. 1. Healing Changes and Broken Promises Blizzard’s recent changes to healing, coupled with their inability to address spikey damage mechanics, have made the experience downright miserable. Healing feels awful, stressful, and unrewarding. Blizzard promised better balance but never delivered. It feels like they’ve completely missed the mark on what makes healing fun. 2. Key Squish and M+ Toxicity The Mythic+ key squish has introduced a host of problems: Unprepared Players: The squish lets unskilled players push into keys they’re not ready for, creating chaos for everyone else. Toxic Behavior Towards Healers: As a healer, you often get blamed for group failures. Players call you names, report you, and somehow you’re the one who gets warnings-even though they were the ones being toxic and calling you names! It’s absurd. Key Downgrading Punishes Practice: Downgrading keys for failures discourages players from practicing and improving. It makes them seek easy carries instead of learning mechanics, which leads to more toxicity. This system is broken. It encourages bad behavior and punishes those trying to improve or help the group succeed. 3. Automated Reporting System The automated reporting system is another glaring issue. It feels like it’s designed to be exploited: Players who hurl insults and slurs at you can turn around and report you, and the system sides with them. Despite fewer active players, bots are rampant, and Blizzard seems unable (or unwilling) to address these issues. This kind of system drives good players away while empowering bad behavior. 4. M+ Gear Behind Raids and Boosting Culture The loot system is another major frustration. Why should Mythic+ players be forced to raid to get the best gear? It feels like Blizzard is encouraging a boost economy to squeeze money from token sales. This approach alienates players who prefer Mythic+ over raiding and adds unnecessary hurdles. 5. Better Alternatives Exist After deleting WoW a few weeks ago, I started playing Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV. The difference is night and day: The developers genuinely care about their games. The communities are welcoming and far less toxic. World of Warcraft has some of the most unique healing gameplay, but the toxic culture, broken Mythic+ systems, and lack of meaningful improvements make it hard to stick around. Unless Blizzard makes a serious overhaul of healing, Mythic+, and their automated systems, not banning toxic players, I see no reason to return. Unfortunately, I expect this thread’s replies will prove my point about how toxic the community has become. Instead of engaging constructively, many will likely resort to insults and dismissive comments. This forum has become just another reflection of the game’s toxic culture. To those still playing, I wish you luck. And for those considering other games, don’t hesitate to try them-you might find the experience far better elsewhere.
Agree with most of the things you adressed but I think they should make every piece of gear warbound until equipped- After the race to world first is finished. I like to tank as a protection pally but I hate retribution, I do however love to play any warlock spec. I just have the problem that I do not get invited to any M+ as a DPS. If I could gear my warlock using my tank it would add one tank into the M+ pool for a lot more runs.
Being able to pull more packs is smth I really miss.. now there’s just a point where it doesnt matter which route you plan if you pull too muvh there’s too much obligatory damage, not even talking about the kicks but OBLIGATORY damage, a hard nerf imo to the power feeling of the healer for example.
I think if they remove key depletion you should have to get timed keys for vault, otherwise people will max vault by doing 10 keys an hour out of time. There's got to be some reward for doing things well and properly imo
That is all needed and correct but it will not undo a mount that costs a AAA and AA game on a subscription based game. They are on full brand withdrawl mode
I completely agree. The leavers, losing my key to stupid, and then barely getting anything except 48 gold is ridiculous. This system needs to timers, no key drop and treat tanks and healers better. Leavers need a FAT suspension. Enough is enough. I can't even get crests to level my heroic gear let alone my 2 pieces of mythic gear I finally got. I'm honestly about to just cancel my game sub until they decide a new route. I hear there is another game that looks pretty good right now.
100% on everything, I will add 2 things : I would play more if I enjoyed gearing up my alts and make them powerful enough to raid mythic with them, for now, I f*cking have 1080 gilded crests to farm on them and I don't have the catch up mechanic that would allow me to upgrade the gear faster since the achievement requires a whooping 639 item level on my main which only a handful of race to world first managed to get and the craft system only gives 636 ilvl anyway. I don't want to run 90 8+ dungeons to catch up on my alts (that's only if you manage to time them all which is impossible in PUGs). I also like what you said about the anniversary raid, blizzard can't keep designing raids for the top 0.5% and the race to world first players anymore, they're not the ones keeping the lights on in HQ ! Finally, they have to at least try balancing classes and specs for Mythic +, they did a decent jobs at balancing for raids but M+ is a sh*t show with meta undergeared alts destroying full geared mainsBM hunters and WW monks in M+ in AoE. This has to stop, I should be able to play any spec I want and get inside keys.
Simple get rid of the timer, keep the trash counter, add currency for each boss that you kill that you dont get loot from and you can buy loot from a vendor from said dungeon
The key depletion is not stupid in my opinion. It's just like any other ranking system. If you keep losing, you go down the ladder, but do you win you climb.
Ascension wow has key reroll for a fair amount of gold and mythic coins which allow you to buy and upgrade mythic gear. Coins have cap which increases weekly
Another question: what's the point of crests if I have to grind for the same item in each track? Hello, sir, you just won this cool new phone. Unfortunately, you first have to fix its screen. That's how it feels when I go from champ to hero and from hero to mythic. Different tracks and different crests do the same thing, make you do higher content for better gear. You don't need both crests and tracks, preferably lose tracks (except mythic, leave it as separate category).
He says what we are all thinking, all of these please. We love the game, it's why some of us have been playing for the last 20 years, give us a meaningful reason to keep playing!
Bro I love this idea. I hate losing trinkets to people who only see there's a roll button available without actually knowing that trinket is garbage for their class. Idiots
I killed Fyrakk every week and didn't get my Axe until week 15 when it was garunteed to drop. One of the most frustrating things I've ever put up with in WoW. Then the next season they have the Bronze Bullion vendor and people can just buy it wafter 2 weeks. Like... why isn't that an option every tier. This season I did over 30 Grim Batols trying to get the mastery on use trinket to drop. It's me least favorite dungeon, it was terrible. If you enjoy pushing this is awful, you're competing for spots on a mythic roster, or applying to groups for M+ and you have no control over the loot you get. Someone with better luck can take your spot, which feels terrible.
Sir, you have cooked
This video man is the best video for wow if the DEVS listen!!!! Than any other. Well done man!!!!
Yes and now watch them behave like a Vegan at a BBQ
This is good but if the any dev play this game they would know the problem. But they dont play the game so they wouldnt understand why people been crying for months.
Multi-CE healer here. I never liked M+ because it feels as though you're being punished for daring to run with friends who aren't as good, or with randoms that you can't rely on. Also, I finally got an Unbound Changeling in the 11th raid week after running Mists multiple times every week. Implementing the first half of the video would make M+ actually bearable and I hope that someone at Blizzard realizes this MASSIVE opportunity for QoL.
It's so crazy that they didn't realize our care how much of a lose lose it is to create such a stressful and toxic environment.
I'm brand new and joined to play with a Mythic + raider who didn't want to try hard, oh and she's my sister. So we're in a small guild and just sit done with Heroic. I learned so much and not from trying to memorize 8 different dungeon clearing videos. It's because raids aren't as punishing and we have like a core who was doing heroic while the rest of us were learning Normal.
Even the OG raiders I know don't like dungeons because it's a competitive online multi-player game. Which actively punishes people for going off meta or making a mistake or, like me st some points, panicking as a DH and dashing off a cliff.
I played DOTA 2 and was in the upper ranks (15 years ago) and the game got more and more toxic. I used to queue up some of the lower ranked players that got queued above and try to help.
My favorite things in this game have been a Nythic + Raid leader joining a PUG I was in and breaking things down like a patient teacher. The other was dashing of a cliff, twice, and the dungeon group being supportive and is actually clearing (was my 20th day playing and 1st dungeon, so they gave so pointers as we went) super cool.
Replace the word "good" with "experienced" in your first sentence. This is more accurate and even worse.
@ these words are relatively synonymous in this scenario. The distinction wasn’t necessary in my opinion
I’m not even halfway in and you’re 100% right on everything.
I felt the same after 5 min
I feel the same way. I wanted to finish the whole thing before providing my own feedback, but saw this and decided to just agree.
12:30 i already was agreeing for a few min now
Again - you nailed it - Having gear vendors would solve (legit) 90% problems
Like integrating tokens/currency for trinkets and weapons again.
Then you might aswell remove gear drops from dungeons.
PvP is much better that way
@ That’s fine, make bosses drop currency to buy the items instead. Less RNG, pleases everyone.
@@Nightstalker314 Tbf is it that bad idea ?
You‘re absolutely right! There have to be bad luck currencies..
Did Ara Kara 20 times, no Sackbrood but 5 other Items I don‘t need 🤯🤯
50 gold at the end of the dungeon is freakin insulting. Now we can easily get 1k gold for repair. Wtf!!
Feel like you wrote that for me, had the same experience 🤣
I know it's total bs. I tank and pay so much I'm forced to buy tokens since I can't quest all damn day to earn gold
1-4 drops +50 per level
4-7 drops +75 per level
8-11 drops +125 per level
12+ drops 200g per level
Gold is halved if you don’t time.
This means If you time a 10 you get 1075g. Not game breaking, but enough that m+ isn’t a total gold sink.
Yeah, we should change WoW to just "gimme" and then lock the doors behind us once we have some stuff!
11:25 THIS is fracking important: I always advocated for activities (like raiding) to be self sufficient/sustainable because nowadays people don't have time to play AND then also spend hours to gather the resources they need to be able to play. It's no longer 2004 and people have a life...
If I commit to a 3 days a week raiding schedule I cannot be expected to spend the rest of the week to farm Valorstones, reagents and what have you.
Very well put! Hope Blizz listens to you! Also Greater Vault needs adjustment, doing 8x mythic+ dungeons a week for max loot slots per week, because way to much week after week after week, you lose the will to do any more mythic+. Change Greater Vault to have 1x; 3x; 5x for max slots reward, apply same logic to delves also! Hope you reading comments Blizz! Anyway great video Flame!
The other day I had a bug where that alt Z interaction happened where nothing was on your screen. Except I couldn’t bring it back so I continue to tank the dungeon and it was the best experience I had a long time. I saw things I’ve never seen before, it was so visually pleasing and immersive. I thought about that and if there was a way to make it less about looking at data and more about immersive gameplay, I think that would be a good thing for the game. It is beautiful, but people are so caught up looking at Data points that it goes to the wayside
My brother in Christ that's called classic wow
This ^.
Similar experience when I did the NO ADDONS challenge in Dragonflight, made me see all the visual work put into the game :P
this is why i made a dynamically hiding UI this season. with all the pop culture stuff in wow, i never thought it could be a game i could be immersed, but i was wrong. It's beautiful, and you can totally feel like yu're in the world. I wish they would lean into that. I'm sure a lot more people would play just to live in the world and not even touch end game, as some already do
Love you brother. May Jesus bless you and your family
Thanks for the response marcelion
Honestly, simply accumulating all the items that are wiped from the non looting nature of m+ would help so much with the repair costs.
Normal/heroic dungeons have so much gold, reagents, greens, etc drop from the mobs that are completely wiped from m+ that simply having those appear in the final chest would help so much in terms of funding repair bills at the very least.
Auto loot would be amazing! Star Wars galaxies has had it forever. Don't make me click on anything to get my loot. With a huge radius for ranged players.
I have been ranting about this since 10 years ago and I think we all have had similar thoughts. There just comes a point where you have to decide when to stop and just accept you are not going to get that item you want. I used to raid with guilds that were pushing for being within a week or so of world first kill (cutting edge etc). I quit raiding for this reason. I didn't want to wipe to the same boss 100+ times before seeing one item drop I'd use. Now I play more casually but delves have me feeling a bit of the same lately. I have cleared literally 300+ delves (got the account 250 delves achievement several weeks ago) across 6 characters at around 619 ilvl now. I have yet to see some of the items ONCE. Some of the ones I wanted the most I only got a track lower from the vault on a week I didn't do 8 delves. I don't play any of these characters now. I do alts to around 610 ilvl and stop before more of this kicks in. I know I'd LIKE to play more but without something deterministic I'm not going to suffer beyond 300 delves. And delves are fun for me. Something chill I do after work. But I'd rather do something else or at most play an alt.
You know the WORST part of all this for every player: we know we won't even use any of this stuff I February. We will be going through it again. Now that, THAT, is the demotivator for me.
At the risk of giving unsolicited advice (which i'm totally doing, btw), have you ever tried other mmo's? I played WoW from Wrath until Legion consistently, then didn't play most of BfA, only a few weeks of S-lands and only came back to D-flight at the end. I finally got tired of everything you just said and decided to try other games. I'll be honest, alot of MMO's are kinda shit imo, but I found things to love about GW2 and ESO. I like GW2's combat, world events, and transmog system but I'm not a huge fan of the story-telling style or the "free-for-all" way you level up. Then in ESO I LOVE the player housing, I love that I can craft all my gear and make it end-game gear (same in GW2) and that gear doesn't become invalid in 4 months. ESO has kinda poopy combat imo (it's similar to skyrim where melee attacks feel kinda weightless and floaty) but everything else about the game (including story) is top notch. Both of the games have a ton of rewarding things to do for casual solo players that actually contribute to your power level. I dunno, sorry for the long ass novel but I saw myself in your comment and just wanted to throw the idea out there. o/
Spot on video. I can simply extend everything you mentioned to PvP as well. I hope the Devs listen to this excellent video today..
Glad you enjoyed it! and yea, pretty sure a lot of the stuff can be applied to most content in the game, still missing the PvP days :)
@@MarcelianOnlineyes bro. Currently PvP is in ruins. The entire reward system is redundant be it for players like myself who are RBG Heros or any casual who just wish to get some mogs. I wish Blizz would hear us someday and act
They won’t until we abandoned the game again. This is an ideological commitment of theirs. They don’t want to see mad players getting rewarded. If some keyboard turner can get 630 Guard they consider that a failure.. they consider that design something that needs to be fixed
We are all running around like yay dragonflight season two and three has saved the game and the dabs are looking at it like a terrible mistake and wondering how they can fix it as quickly as possible
One of the best wow videos all explaining the big issues with the game. I can only hope the devs see this and rethink what they are doing.
just get rid of keystones entirely. at the pedestal you can select what difficulty you want to attempt.
Fantastic video, mate! ❤
It's always amazed me how Blizzard, after all these years, refuses to reset the whole M+ concept and rebuild it from scratch. There are countless ideas for improving Mythic+ system across the forums - some better, some worse - and yet Blizzard always seems to think they know best.
Sure, not too many players fully grasp the long-term consequences of their suggestions, which could potentially negatively impact the game. It definitely requires some balance between healthy user feedback and experienced devs input. But still - their denial to improve based on what people truly enjoy is flabbergasting and sometimes even depressing. Guys, have some faith in us! If it backfires - well, shit happens, but - for the love of God - at least you tried. Tear this system down and make it enjoyable and fresh experience.
About M+ itens vendors: use the Blizzard ranks and crests for that. Exemple: if have score equal 500, you can buy Adventure 1/8 itens, if have 3000, myth 1/6 itens, using the respective crest to buy. And remove valorstone, dont makes sense have two coins for the same thing.
Monk here as well, cleared hc raid every week, got the contract only last week, I was getting desperate.
But still, ~80 runs in grim batol - no skardyn’s grace
@15:20 I just want to point out that this point would be true for Monk's Mystic Touch rather than Battle Shout. Battle Shout is one of the very few redeeming qualities of Warrior, the buff will make it so that every single Strength or Agility class regardless of damage type will have 5% more AP.
That specificly goes extra for brewmasters. Literally every other tank brings a much better tool to the group.
Stellar points. Most MMO's operate on the carrot on a stick dynamic, but with WoW, the carrot is often withered and moldy. The risk/reward isn't worth the time, and I laughed when you brought up how pitiful the rewards are in Mythics. What right minded adventurer would continue dungeon diving if the rewards couldn't even cover the price of the adventure?
Gear vendors were the shit. Running heroics in WotLk mattered. They need to bring it back. They already have the currency with the crest.
why is this man smarter than the entire wow dev team combined
If we can pick our key what will happen is early in the season you will get people doing them all for KSM but then later on people will only be running the same 2-3 keys to farm crests and you will see literally 0 groups for the other keys.
There are dungeons I legitimately don’t do even if it had a bis item because it sucks. I run dungeons for my enjoyment, if I’m grinding bis I’m grinding bis but if I hate 1 dungeon I’m never going to push that dungeon ever.
Choosing keys just lets me do fun dungeons, like I loved academy in DF, and would constantly Que for it because it was fun.
@@greentang6375 the thing is typically everyone likes the same dungeons, not the hard ones. So as I said there wouild be basically no groups for these dungeons ever.. and if you needed something from it or were late to the season and needed KSM you would be waiting forever to get into said dungeon or maybe might never get in at all.
@@lukehyre1383What a tragedy, if only you could make your own group and go to the key you want...
@@artradies that would likely never get filled. It's already hard enough to find a Grim Batol right now for instance but people have to do them to push their keys etc so it keeps some in LFG still. With a pick your own system it would literally be all the same few keys after the first couple weeks.
This is actually an argument for being able to give proper feedback to blizz. If they see 1-3 dungeons never getting any runs maybe they would actually make an effort into making the dungeon fun.
Let this be very clear, I want key depletion to be removed, but I can give you the reason why Blizzard placed it in the game and kept it in the game for all this time,
They said this in the official Blizzard interview with Ian Hazzikostas:
"The depletion of mythic keys exist so lower keys are still in rotation, if there is no key depletion then lower keys don't exist anymore over time as with every weekly vault players get a mythic plus key equal to their latest m+ they ran previous week."
That is what Blizzard said, no one has offered a solution for that issue yet.
In a world where keystones don't deplete, I could see the difficulty selector becoming like delves. Wanna run a NW 5? Just go there with your group and do it, assuming you've cleared a 4 or higher for that dungeon already as the leader/m+ dungeon starter.
Just take keys out and do it llike delves, then you can run stuff at any level.
boom, solutions ^
The solution is that people play alts. Not all my characters will be able to do a +10, some may be at a +5, while others are starting at +2. My character running a +10 is never going to go back to do a +2, depletion or not, so there is no need for depletion.
@@Daemos66good one
If someone leaves the timer should pause and allow a reinsert, just consider it a dead key but let us bring some help to get the loot
Almost depressed watching this because it could be so much better but the devs are so absurdly stubborn.
Stick this on Ion Hazzikostas desk and someone throw kicks until he watches it. Never seen anything so spot on about this game.
On the keys topic, you can't really not deplete the key, that way no one would do lower dungeons anymore and people would just get stuck with no one to play. Everyone would just go 10s.
Also, not having a different key will make people just go for the easier dungeon or the one that you want the most, IE the one that drops the mega trinket. The other dungeons that maybe have niche items would barely have people in them. Imagine Arakara right now, 90 out of 100 dungeons would be it because of the trinket.
It's a good idea, but I think it has huge problems. I don't like this system either, but I don't know if thats the answer.
I'm a Warrior, and I love playing this class, but you are RIGHT! Please make the changes you're talking about! PLUS: "Disrupting Shout" >> interrupts all spellcasting within 14 yards and prevents any spell in that school from being cast for 6 seconds. Available for ARMS, FURY, and TANK!
Bring back the Pandaria Warrior rotation!
Spec difficulty fix: Make a billion mechanics that 1 shot dps if they fail. Make heal/tank deal with constant and less spiky mechanics.
If they get 1 shot: blame yourself (less toxic)
If they die slower (healer sucks and know its him (cant blame dps)
I FIXED WOW FOR GOOD WAY EASIER TOO... DELETE THE ENTIRE FOLDER OFF THE PC bam WOW FIXED!
Here is an idea, remove the keys, let people play whatever difficulty they want.
The entire mythic system is a great in theory, terrible in practice scenario. it's punishment for the sake of punishment on all accounts. On top of the mythic io score which breeds elitism furthering the tilt and divide between old and new players. This game is supposed to bring people together and I would like to see it do that again.
They are past the point of return on that. They have allowed things into the game they should have never allowed, and then balanced content around it, for both PvE and PvP.
Addons for one. The second Blizzard started balancing raid difficulty around third party scripts, the designer should have been fired and all changes stopped until they purged the addons from the game systematically.
Flame, you and Marcelian make such good content. Keep it up!!! Also I would love to get my character done in your HD art. How can I go about doing this??!!
@Marcelian BROTHER YOU NAILED IT HERE! I have to be honest, I rarely visit your videos. Although they are great and well polished, and fit the grass roots player, I just find it’s not my style of video in some ways that I can’t particularly put my finger on. But this video, this is exactly the type of thing I’d love for them to try. You really are on to something here and I just hope Blizzard watches this as well and gleans some ideas if not all of them. You got a sub out of this one. TY and keep up the good work.
Someone else made a point that key depletion equivalent for raiding would be like if u fail a boss, u have to rekill the previous boss just to reprog the boss u failed. Cracked me up.
In DF, I worked with a group on a Mythic 0 for the first time, and we finished and earned our rewards. It was challenging and we took several tries on certain bosses. In the end, we got a +3 key to a completely different dungeon that we haven't even tried yet. There was no incentive to move to that other dungeon. I just let that key die and didn't go back. That wasn't progression, that was a RNG shift to a new challenge that didn't even have the rewards we were interested in.
I also got some Ideas to make pugging a lot more bearable
1.We need some sort of M+ trial for People to be able to enter at all, Something like proving Grounds that shows you all the Affixes this Season and how your class can or cant deal with them.
2.At Season Start you should have to do each Dungeon 1 Time on M0, so you at least have a minimal understanding of the Dungeon
3.Instead of Keystones, use the Delve level System where you have to do +2 first to Unlock +3 and so on and you just can choose them from a Menu.
Add the “training” to Mythic 0. Gotta clear the dungeon on M0 to get into M+
I was thinking exactly you're last point, if you need to do T2 then T3 would be greyed out, then T3 unlocks and you do that to unlock T4 and so on. Would be way better and solidify the mechs in people's minds, there needs to be a way of getting more DPS players to get groups though
This only applies to the worst players, or super casual players. I have maybe 1 in 25 people in my keys that brick it. Other times the comp just cant time the key, ie group leaders fault for making a comp that cant complete it. I’ve timed 30 10-11 keys and another 45 12-14 keys as well as my first 15 key the other night.
@@IMTWOHUGEIf there are comps that can’t clear a key in time just due to the class they picked…that’s a game design problem.
@@kevinc8955 That's just the nature of pushing very high keys as he stated 14+. On a more casual level of 10s i belive it's very well possible to complete with pretty much any comp if the players are experienced enough
Another idea for the item vendor was like, after x you can purchase a champion level item, after x coins and the champion, you can upgraed to hero and so on. This way they would make us grind nonetheless but with a fair exchange
I tried to link this video on the WOW forums and got flagged for spam. I think this video should be seen by as many wow players as possible and eventually the devs.
Add a vendor like D3 had with blood shards...let us at least randomly target a slot from a currency that mythic plus drops.
honestly, 10man mythic or like 12man would be a godsend for so many people including me. Its incredibly difficult scheduling 20 people of similair skill and motivation and 1 person missing kills the raid night.
+1, just make it flexible like any other difficulty. If they want it for RWF then just implement it so it becomes flexible after some time of the race being over. Would love to play it without it being so much of a chore to get 20 ppl to do so
I so much agree. I unsubbed yesterday because I hit a wall. I can't move from 11s to 12s becase difficulty change is so steep ppl won't take you unless your rio is super high. You can only do it of you got good guild mates or own grp. It's alos too punishing for ppl to take a risk. I did one 12 only because some pumped guys accepted me miraculously and we did it. But that's it. Trying to get on a key for hours. Nah sorry. Got lots of other games to play that I paid for and never played. I'll come back to next patch with raid. Oh btw. I can't do mythic raid too because of player limitation and lock that ruins your week if someone leaves. I dont do this with guild because of the raiding hours. I prefer late evening to night which guilds don't do. So yeah.
wow! You spoke some TRUTHS!! very well said!. I enjoy raiding quite a bit, but my time is very limited, so when I get into a raid and a couple of wipes happen, walking back to my body takes so long that eventually I can't finish the raid because of all the time we wasted walking back.
But yeah, you hit on A LOT of great points.
You have some solid points here. I am surprised you didn't mention the three chest from legion. That was actually really fun, and bigger chances for trinkets etc. :D
I've thought since Wrath that they could fix the RNG simply by adding a modifier based on number of attempts. Say a drop has a base drop rate of 10% and you gain 1% every attempt until it becomes a 100% drop chance. It could be applied differently depending on the item, things that are meant to be rare like mounts could get no modifier, but things like tier sets need to be 100% before they become obsolete assuming that you are doing weekly runs.
You are totally right!! I switched from DPS to Tank, and it's really energy-consuming, and so many leavers if they die twice then they leave. That's driving me crazy!
Literally all of these things are implemented so we play more. Playing more= more money.
But they’re also losing out on long term sales because it might keep is around in the short term, but within a couple of months, ppl grow fed up and frustrated. So having these changes would boost their revenue quite a bit imo
I would love to WANT to play more instead of feel like I have to. It’s a mistake to make the game feel like a chore, when really part of me loves mythic+, but it’s just bogged down with so many dumb decisions.
Right and wrong. Imagine alts were easily gearable and not restricted through weekly vaults (if you play m+ only) so many people would play many different alts which also means more time played
Great video and great points!
I wanted to add into the whole “meta” problem that lingers too as you move up into keys: Maybe Blizz needs to make their season rewards for the top 1% of class and spec (or class and role) VS the 1% of all players who decide to play nothing but meta comps.
Honestly, I cant remember a time when M+ just felt so bleh. My friends are burnt out and I’ve had to pug my way through my keys. Playing fury has been rough, even starting my own group waiting for a tank and then a healer is tedious. They definitely missed the mark this season and they just keep doubling down on the rng on top of rng.
I have the fix for the dungeons switch to Torment like system where the way you unlock it similar to torghast but everyone has to have starts at 1 has to do each tier each week and once you unlock for the week its fine, Resets every week. Anyone who wants to lower can and will unlock that tier because the person who is the group leader is the only person need to unlock higher tier if everyone else hasn't done it yet, Also randomize loot table or rotating loot between unknown 3 different loot tables in a dungeon and putting them on 2hr timeouts so another person has the be group leader so prevent same person from spamming it requiring ever person to be involved. Have special rewards for completing all of said tier or ranking up to max in each dungeon like 2k , also the loot can change based on timing keys, (base being 610) negative time - 606 Plus 1 Time -- 610 plus 2 - 613 Plus 3 - 616 and you could do this for all tiers of the dungeon. Upon selecting tier similar to torghast it pops up for everyone to agree , upon start if someone leaves after just like normal dungeons but longer puts you on the 2hr wait timer for being a quitter. Add Dungeon reset popup to avoid the timer if 3/5 of the group agrees no penalty. More epic more involved dungeons ^^
Thank you for yelling out my issues. Hopefully, this reaches Blizzard, who pretends to be deaf
You forgot one of the simplest ways to improve the long queues on M+.
Just allow us to queue for more than 5 groups.
If we could queue for 10 groups, the wait times would be lower as there are more chances to get invited.
Instead of a deterministic for loot, they could add an option when you loot to choose between 2 different gears.
For casual players, depletion is the main reason why you do limited training, because you always have the fear of losing the key level (I'm not saying this is entirely rationnal but so is human).
Excellent video. I had a whole essay written up to convey how accurate this whole thing has been, but I deleted it cause it all sounded whiny.
100% on everything in here.
This, This is EXACTLY why i do not like to log on to retail anymore and just drop my time into the classic versions of wow. Thank you for publicly adressing these issues.
Why can't blizzard go all in on a support role separate from DPS, TANK and HEALER. 6 players per dungeon, and the support role can have many classes suited towards taking aggro off the tank, or alleviating pressure on the healer by having that support spec get instant flash heal procs while doing their rotation, or a dps support role that can help interrupt spell casts and bump up the dps' numbers.
I'd love if they reintroduced mandatory crowd control in dungeons. Make less trash packs, but each pack more worthwhile to defeat. I'd love if delves, m+ and raid all got loot on par to each other, so you can pick what you like.
instead of random dungeon keys, just remove the dungeon restriction from the keys, so the same key would work in all dungeons and only the level would change
I feel like they definitely need to stop depleting keys in mythic plus. And also, they absolutely need to add a permanent deterministic loop system into the game now and moving forward forever. Meaning, if you do a piece of content, you get rewarded badges that you can buy any piece of gear you would like. End of storyyou can still have world quest, and even have them drop a piece of gear that will save you from having to use a token.
I played back in wrath of the lich king and you would get badges of frost from the raid and take it to Dalaran and buy the tier gear from the raid i never understood why bliz stopped doing this.
Yes the bosses could still drop the loot as well but also as a form of bad luck protection the boss drops tokens you can use to buy the items you want.
I would like to thank you for taking the time to present all of these suggestions for the M+ players like me :) They have to introduce tokens ffs, it's a no brainer, it would help a lot. Also, having tanks and healers feel like doing a 2nd job instead of fun is the biggest issue here I think.
My VDH is at 2600 io and it's really hard to stay alive, no mistakes allowed or I"m dead on the floor in 0.5sec. Dont think it's helping having more tanks.
FInally, in Gw2, doing the same as M+ is the most profitable thing you can do in the game (fractals). I dont understand why it would not be the same thing.
Best feedback video I have seen this season! I would LOVE most, if not all, of these suggestions
One method of buffing tanks/healers I really liked was from Mists of Tirna Scythe. If you went out of your way to have a herbalist in the group you could take down a pathway and gain temporary buffs to damage, healing and damage reduction. One thing I absolutely hate is the little buffs you get in LFR Nerub-ar Palace. It feels so pointless to get despite them being everywhere. Maybe I'm just not seeing the benefit.
One other thing I would ask of Blizzard would be to have an ignore item option. If I'm going into a dungeon looking for a weapon, I want the option to ignore the trinket which isn't good for my class that constantly drops. Also, every time that item wouldn't drop, increase its drop chance by lets say 5%.
I'd also bring back Warforged/upgraded gear for non-mythic/raid gear. It's hard enough to gear enough on a new character for heroics, having the option to get a piece of gear in normal dungeons that may be 565 ilvl to help us get to heroics would be a massive boost. Not to mention it would help with rings since they are so expensive on the ah.
Lastly, just buff the knowledge points gained from crafting professions. Or make them easier to get. My tailor is stuck at something stupid like 150 available points, that I can only gain maybe 15 a week, whereas my gathering professions already are maxed out. Just give me a chance to gain a knowledge point when crafting gear. That's all.
Really well said.. there wasn’t anything in there I didn’t agree with.. thanks for getting it out there
In DF S2 (I think) I ran 47 Vortex pinnacle runs for the rainsong trinket, only to get it in the vault next rest xD
I don't know who you are; I never even heard of you or seen your face before. But Sir, you have earned my sub and my time. Epic video, right on the wounds, and most importantly, its been aloooooong time since I laughed this hard. I just want to say thank you. really, from the bottom of my heart. You made my day.
2 or 3 chesting M+ runs should award that many slots in the great vault.
Crest gains should be doubled up until the current week's cap.
110% would solve alot of issues. If the vault is so rng aswell, let us either get tokens so we can purchase the thing from the raid eventually or let us choose what slot we want to have in our vault. Imagine being a m+ only and the last mythtrack item you need is bracers but u never get it or whatever. I only needed the ring from the vault from queen but I missed when my guild killed her on hc so I had to do full normal and skip hc all together cause the chance of getting the ring would be lower if I did any hc bosses cause there was almost no pugs that cleared queen hc at the time.
I agree with all of these especially the loot part. I did over 40 mists to get the changling trinket just to get a champion track helping a friend with a alt😭
Spot on. That’s the reason I left the endless grinding n farming for items that u never get.
I’ve done grim batol around 40 times and ara kara around 30 times. Gale of shadows and the ara trinket has yet to drop for me. I’ve gotten the green egg trinket 3 times…
It’s so damn frustrating. Especially when 4 of my friends has had the Gale of Shadows for weeks is demotivating
Love the loot ideas, the depletion idea, and the mechanics ideas! No RNG on dungeon would have most people farming the fastest/easiest one over and over for crests. Leads to burnout, makes it harder for non-meta to find keys when they will already be more rare. IMO of course, seems to makes sense though.
Also, I freaking love BRD raid... I run it even while saved just fun lol
hei, i did 60 grimbatols till i got the trinket (mark of kardros) , and it didn't even drop to me - i bought it off someone else.
and hei, now around prob around 70-80-90 grim batols in, still didn't drop it myself.
but, at least , this is the best wow has ever been (overall)
Absolutely agree with everything you said, as someone who dosent have time for raids m+ is my end game content and right now its pissing me off due to how much time i spend either looking for groups or failing keys and having to go back to 8s and 9s
No sir you didn't fix WoW at all. You fixed "the retail player experience", let me explain.
Okay M+s for instance are fun, I myself am a hardcore M+ pusher. However I believe that this highly competitive content is very niche and shouldn't be the main focus of an MMO.
Same for raids or PvP, okay those are fun and should represent goals for the players but shouldn't be the core of the game.
What WoW really misses is the leveling experience. To me classic WoW is a real and enjoyable MMO, and retail is just so messy and badly designed arround the top 1% of players.
WoW should be focused arround a slow leveling experience with difficulty in the quests, the zones and the dungeons while leveling !
At level maximum (which would include a small proportion of the player base), ok you could play some M+s if you want but this content is way too inaccessible to be played by millions of players.
But at this point the game has just stacked so many layers of sh...t that what they should do is closing retail WoW servers and start up a WoW 2.0 with a return to the old MMO principles.
I think you have no idea how deep in a niche you are when you play M+s, don't expect any player to enjoy M+ without having played the game for several years.
Everything is confusing for new players and it leads to frustration because it feels like the game is meant to be rushed, there is 0 difficulty in the game. Actualy there is one : understanding the game.
Best regards
As someone who have done Grim Batol and Stone Vault 30+ times and still no neck/trinket drop i have to agree on gear vendors. It's so frustrating to not get anything from clearing dungeons. I legit pondered quitting because of my bad rng.
Agreed!!! This was my topic on forum and for 100 replies and it got delisted and closed without any reason. I am happy I quit :
I’ve finally decided to step away, and I wanted to share why. The current state of healing, Mythic+, and the community has pushed me away.
1. Healing Changes and Broken Promises
Blizzard’s recent changes to healing, coupled with their inability to address spikey damage mechanics, have made the experience downright miserable. Healing feels awful, stressful, and unrewarding. Blizzard promised better balance but never delivered. It feels like they’ve completely missed the mark on what makes healing fun.
2. Key Squish and M+ Toxicity
The Mythic+ key squish has introduced a host of problems:
Unprepared Players: The squish lets unskilled players push into keys they’re not ready for, creating chaos for everyone else.
Toxic Behavior Towards Healers: As a healer, you often get blamed for group failures. Players call you names, report you, and somehow you’re the one who gets warnings-even though they were the ones being toxic and calling you names! It’s absurd.
Key Downgrading Punishes Practice: Downgrading keys for failures discourages players from practicing and improving. It makes them seek easy carries instead of learning mechanics, which leads to more toxicity.
This system is broken. It encourages bad behavior and punishes those trying to improve or help the group succeed.
3. Automated Reporting System
The automated reporting system is another glaring issue. It feels like it’s designed to be exploited:
Players who hurl insults and slurs at you can turn around and report you, and the system sides with them.
Despite fewer active players, bots are rampant, and Blizzard seems unable (or unwilling) to address these issues.
This kind of system drives good players away while empowering bad behavior.
4. M+ Gear Behind Raids and Boosting Culture
The loot system is another major frustration. Why should Mythic+ players be forced to raid to get the best gear? It feels like Blizzard is encouraging a boost economy to squeeze money from token sales. This approach alienates players who prefer Mythic+ over raiding and adds unnecessary hurdles.
5. Better Alternatives Exist
After deleting WoW a few weeks ago, I started playing Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV. The difference is night and day:
The developers genuinely care about their games.
The communities are welcoming and far less toxic.
World of Warcraft has some of the most unique healing gameplay, but the toxic culture, broken Mythic+ systems, and lack of meaningful improvements make it hard to stick around. Unless Blizzard makes a serious overhaul of healing, Mythic+, and their automated systems, not banning toxic players, I see no reason to return.
Unfortunately, I expect this thread’s replies will prove my point about how toxic the community has become. Instead of engaging constructively, many will likely resort to insults and dismissive comments. This forum has become just another reflection of the game’s toxic culture.
To those still playing, I wish you luck. And for those considering other games, don’t hesitate to try them-you might find the experience far better elsewhere.
This video is so well articulated its like you have a PHD in wow, very awesome.
Challenging healing is only thing that made me come back to do a healer role again
Agree with most of the things you adressed but I think they should make every piece of gear warbound until equipped- After the race to world first is finished.
I like to tank as a protection pally but I hate retribution, I do however love to play any warlock spec. I just have the problem that I do not get invited to any M+ as a DPS.
If I could gear my warlock using my tank it would add one tank into the M+ pool for a lot more runs.
Being able to pull more packs is smth I really miss.. now there’s just a point where it doesnt matter which route you plan if you pull too muvh there’s too much obligatory damage, not even talking about the kicks but OBLIGATORY damage, a hard nerf imo to the power feeling of the healer for example.
No to tokens for ur bis items from dungens, but big YES for the gold in m+ chests and mats and stuff.
I think if they remove key depletion you should have to get timed keys for vault, otherwise people will max vault by doing 10 keys an hour out of time. There's got to be some reward for doing things well and properly imo
That is all needed and correct but it will not undo a mount that costs a AAA and AA game on a subscription based game. They are on full brand withdrawl mode
I completely agree. The leavers, losing my key to stupid, and then barely getting anything except 48 gold is ridiculous. This system needs to timers, no key drop and treat tanks and healers better. Leavers need a FAT suspension. Enough is enough. I can't even get crests to level my heroic gear let alone my 2 pieces of mythic gear I finally got. I'm honestly about to just cancel my game sub until they decide a new route. I hear there is another game that looks pretty good right now.
100% on everything, I will add 2 things : I would play more if I enjoyed gearing up my alts and make them powerful enough to raid mythic with them, for now, I f*cking have 1080 gilded crests to farm on them and I don't have the catch up mechanic that would allow me to upgrade the gear faster since the achievement requires a whooping 639 item level on my main which only a handful of race to world first managed to get and the craft system only gives 636 ilvl anyway. I don't want to run 90 8+ dungeons to catch up on my alts (that's only if you manage to time them all which is impossible in PUGs). I also like what you said about the anniversary raid, blizzard can't keep designing raids for the top 0.5% and the race to world first players anymore, they're not the ones keeping the lights on in HQ !
Finally, they have to at least try balancing classes and specs for Mythic +, they did a decent jobs at balancing for raids but M+ is a sh*t show with meta undergeared alts destroying full geared mainsBM hunters and WW monks in M+ in AoE. This has to stop, I should be able to play any spec I want and get inside keys.
Simple get rid of the timer, keep the trash counter, add currency for each boss that you kill that you dont get loot from and you can buy loot from a vendor from said dungeon
All Great ideas for Keys. I would have gotten yelled at a lot less if the key wasn't destroyed when we fail 😂
The key depletion is not stupid in my opinion. It's just like any other ranking system. If you keep losing, you go down the ladder, but do you win you climb.
Awesome video! I agree with everything. I don’t play m+ anymore because of the toxic environment. More rewards equals more happy players.
When you fail a delve 8(assuming it occasionally happens) you don't lose your +8 delete ability. Why is M+ different?
Ascension wow has key reroll for a fair amount of gold and mythic coins which allow you to buy and upgrade mythic gear. Coins have cap which increases weekly
Another question: what's the point of crests if I have to grind for the same item in each track? Hello, sir, you just won this cool new phone. Unfortunately, you first have to fix its screen. That's how it feels when I go from champ to hero and from hero to mythic. Different tracks and different crests do the same thing, make you do higher content for better gear. You don't need both crests and tracks, preferably lose tracks (except mythic, leave it as separate category).
This….. had to be said. Very well designed video! If they really want to deliver what was promised they will start with these things.
If Blizz allowed me a way to farm what I want [bad luck protection] and removed flight stones, I would actually gear up alts AND play more.
He says what we are all thinking, all of these please. We love the game, it's why some of us have been playing for the last 20 years, give us a meaningful reason to keep playing!
Make the Nerub Palace Refinery also gear vendor tokens.
Bro I love this idea. I hate losing trinkets to people who only see there's a roll button available without actually knowing that trinket is garbage for their class. Idiots
This is probably the best video I've ever seen. This should be played on the devs daily agile stand ups at 9am
Hey! you are talking about me trying to get the trinket from Mists since the start of the season :)
I killed Fyrakk every week and didn't get my Axe until week 15 when it was garunteed to drop. One of the most frustrating things I've ever put up with in WoW. Then the next season they have the Bronze Bullion vendor and people can just buy it wafter 2 weeks. Like... why isn't that an option every tier. This season I did over 30 Grim Batols trying to get the mastery on use trinket to drop. It's me least favorite dungeon, it was terrible. If you enjoy pushing this is awful, you're competing for spots on a mythic roster, or applying to groups for M+ and you have no control over the loot you get. Someone with better luck can take your spot, which feels terrible.
Wow those are great points!!! I do hope Blizz are watching this!
Agree with everything, Mythic plus feels like a chore. The only desire I have to do it is the loot, and 9/10 times you don’t even get anything.