As usual, BrianF explaining complex stuff like this in chunks anyone can understand - whether or not you consider yourself part of the FGC. Strong work as always...
@@Brian_F I am wondering how much this change would affect other games. I am not saying other developers - Bamco, ArcSys, et al. - will make similar changes. I believe having these choices of hardware SOCD will introduce other tech - which you note as well. We'll see...
As someone who only occasionally watches but doesn't participate in the FGC, Brian is the best at explaining all these things for a layman like myself. No one else comes close imo
I think software being in charge of SOCD should be standard. When we think about it, what happens when you push buttons is a game mechanic. It should be up to the developers to decide what happens for each game, not to controller manufacturers. Keyboards and pads already leave it to the developers, so leverless should do too. Even if we want to play old games we have ways to write our own software to clean it up, Fightcade has SOCD clean up at their software so it SOCD on the firmware shouldn't be allowed anymore, it just limits developers.
I'm fine with this idea in theory, but the FGC has been a community long associated with legacy. We regularly play games that are quite old and that's fine because of what those games can still offer us as players. UMVC3 is coming back to Evo this year, for crying out loud. That's pretty nuts! I personally love going back to older games like USF4 and SFxT, but those games wouldn't handle SOCD stuff like modern games (and thus wouldn't work well with a controller that did no cleaning of its own). I don't want to have to buy another $2-300 just because some suit is worried about a tiny, insignificant "advantage" that one controller setup provides over another. It's silly and if we get going down this road, everyone will just keep obsessing over "fairness" when all sports (of the e variety or not) have never been fair to begin with. This whole fiasco is dumb.
@@omarfelix5540 Each game does it its way. If Strive wants to up+down=up and SF6 wants up+down=neutral, so it will be. If they ever change their mind, they can patch it. But with SOCD on the firmware, they're both (and all other games) locked to the manufacturer's desire with no way to patch it out.
@@drbobcat6 We don't need SOCD on the controller's firmware to play these games, you can add a software layer that translates the controller inputs, Steam always did that. In fact, Fightcade has SOCD on them too, 99% of the people playing 3rd Strike today play it through Fightcade and you can play with your keyboard with the decided upon SOCD community agreement.
@@rafaelbordoni516 Not every game supports steam input, nor does everyone use fightcade. I will concede that most hardcore FGC people do know their way around technical questions. I also don't really mind if they DO actually pursue a genuine, consistent standard. I simply don't believe this was as well thought out as it could've been. That's obvious simply given how they claim to want to try to level the playing field, but still only allowed for previous shortcuts to return. There's also little said about enforcement, or even whether any of this can be enforced online (where most play will take place). The hastiness of the decision and the lack of consistency comes across as more of a reactive decision, not a well-researched undertaking. That is also not unusual given Capcom's response to other things in the past (the use of mods on PC being a great example). P.S. I use a leverless controller for health reasons as my disability makes a standard stick a no-go. I don't play charge characters that often anymore, though, so it's not as though I'm losing anything here. My critique is directed at their rationale and the overall obsessive mindset people have towards fairness.
I have to wonder if Capcom's reasoning is just: 1) software should be in charge of SOCD 2) as Brian says input shortcuts will be around no matter what, so let's just have all SOCD = neutral for consistency
It would be so cool. I play on keyboard cause I suck in dpads and got no money to afford a hitbox style controller. But, Strive, Tekken 7, KOF XV and Fightcade helped me a lot with software SOCD. It is strange that Capcom still don't do that nowadays
@@astjuly8239 But Capcom does do it. They've been doing it since SF5. The game (software) does the SOCD cleaning if it receives L+R or U+D from the controller.
@@astjuly8239 It should. If you're inputting raw data without any SOCD (even on KB). 8+2=5. Moving forward all new games are being built with Hitbox in mind. Older games should just use a legacy mode which should be 8+2=8.
As an outsider, Capcom's general decision to just have software handle SOCD makes the most sense. This way it standardizes all of the different input methods. So Hitbox won't be different than keyboard or pad, for example. Why Capcom has decided that the software level SOCD should be up+down = neutral is another discussion entirely. Though if they push for the removal of hardware level SOCD for their games, then patching up+down = up (or whatever) is easy to do.
The thing is you're still allowed to have hardware side SOCD as long as it's the same SOCD as the software (which is obviously only really enforceable on in person tournanents). Your box can still have SOCD cleaning, and thus it pbbly will so it is useable in older games, they haven't ruled that out, it just has to always clean to neutral.
While I do like the idea of them being able to experiment, I'm sure the box players are not gonna appreciate the inconsistency from game to game, or patches that invalidate the muscle memory.
@@marcossantos1998 welcome to the world of videogames where inputs can be inconsistent and if you have a unique or non-standard input it's either ignored, directed to 3rd party, or standardized how the dev sees fit. I don't see a reason to be upset for the most part tbh.
You're spot on when it comes to releasing buttons just being sloppy, particularly with your middle and ring fingers. I've been re-learning Jojo's Heritage for the Future and Jotaro utilizes Hyper Hops for his bnbs as they allow for crazy extensions when paired with certain moves. Turns out, while you can just hold down and hit up for hyper hops in KOF, Jojo requires you to let go of down and stand up before hyper hops can be done. This actually makes the hyper hops fairly tricky as a lot of times I'll hit up before I have finished releasing down, resulting in Jotaro doing a normal hop and dropping the combo. On Stick this is just not something that can happen, as you will never accidentally be pressing down while hitting up, that's just not possible.
My guess is they get rid of shortcuts that allow you to circumvent a transition (crouch to stand/ stand to crouch) that you would normally go through. That seemed to be the flashkick nerf. And if other atuff becomes easier or harder than so be it.
I agree. Being able to skip the standing animation of Guile's flash kick is a case of the controller actually changing the functionality of a move. The easier overhead blocking or easier quarter circle forward motion doesn't actually change how those actions play out, they're just more ergonomic.
They could have easily fixed it by just forcing a transition considering they have buffering anyway. Up + down = 1f neutral, then jump. Make it so down to up always gives you 1f of neutral no matter how fast you do it, just make it automatic and buffer and it won't effect inputs because the buffer will save the person's input anyway. There, fixed. Now no one gets frame perfect flash kick even if you did manage to move your stick from down to up in 1f.
@@Saskaruto16 no because this still allows for brain-dead 1 frame transitions, which should be difficult to do. not only that but forcing a frame of neutral could also be abused in many games.
@@Silk_OG A 1 frame transition is still more fair than a 0 frame transition which is what it currently is on the hitbox style. The problem with the 0 transition is that you don't enter the neutral to get hit by certain setplay situations that are normally true block/hit confirms of force the opponent to remain croutching, etc. This would fix that issue. The only thing I can think of that could really be abused by having the frame or 2 of neutral before moving to Up would be that tiger knee would be easier, but that's already cheatable in other ways, and it's even easier with Up+down = neutral anyway so it's irrelevant. Idk about certain anime fighter shenanigans though. The problem is that no matter what system is used, there will always be things that can be abused about leverless controllers, especially the hitbox style, no matter what the SOCD is. Up+Down = up: Easy 0f transition flash kicks. Dumb, yes, but not as bad as some other alternatives. Up+Down = Neutral: Broken high low and fuzzy guarding, Z motion cheats, etc. Multiple people have talked about how much more abuse this has than the former. Up+Down = 1-2f neutral, then Up, is at least closer to a standard controller/level input style where a person has to transition between those states normally for at least a couple frames. Yes a pad or stick could theoretically do it in 0 frames, even Bryan said he couldn't do it more than 1 in 10 times in practice let alone in game, so not realistic. Does it make tiger knee braindead? Yes. However TK is braindead on pretty much any hitbox style, with Up+Down = Neutral being by far the easiest. Unless there is some super specific abuse issue that could happen from adding 1-2f of neutral that I don't know about, I don't see a reason to not add that as an option.
@@Saskaruto16 your forgetting the one true fair option, last input. If it always cleans to the last input then it stops all this nonsense and puts hitbox back on fair grounds. So when someone hits left- then right- then releases right. it will come out to left-right-neutral, instead of reverting to left on right release making it left-right-left. Same exact system with up down. (So hitting up while down is pressed makes the game stop recognizing down inputs until pressed again. Its a combination of opposite inputs and negative edge inputs that make leverless methods unfair. Until they adopt this then leverless will never be fair and able to do stuff not physically possible on stick or pad.
Interestingly, this is the case with the original Hitbox. Other leverless controllers do it differently. Someone I know has a hitbox that cleans to Last Input + Up, while mine has a cheap Chinese board that cleans to Left + Down, and apparently there are even more type of SOCD boards out there.
This is really hard to enforce. For in-person events they'll have to have mandatory button checks where you display the SOCD behavior to a judge/ref. For online events it's undetectable unless you require handcams, which is impractical.
Here’s the problem, if a player can switch the SOCD on the fly (like see the tweet by Junkfood Arcades for their Snackbox) would it matter if a judge inspected the controller before the fight? So even in-person it’s really not feasible.
@@malcovich_games If there's a visual indicator, then it's potentially detectable. If there's not, it would come down to integrity. Either way, I think there's value in having a verified starting point.
@@VinceOfAllTrades Junkfood’s Snackbox already has an indicator light but older hitbox models don’t. But also, I would not rely on “integrity”… some people would try to win at all costs. Heh heh.
@@randomcatname7792 Yeah it should be pretty easy to see if a player is consistently changing from down to up in 1 frame multiple times in a match. Then ask to inspect the controller after the match.
Lifting your fingers to release a button being slower is a posture thing. You could learn from guitar players on that point. The main trick is that your hand needs to be positioned so that neutral is release. That way, you press with muscular speed, and when you release you don't have to physically pick up your hand, you just relax it and your fingers will snap back to neutral automatically. If your fingers are set on the buttons, you'll be slower. You probably already do this on your attack button side. For this reason I've always been surprised that there isn't some kind of palm rest, or at least palm positioning dent/ridge, on sticks and hitboxes. So you can maintain your position by feel.
@@rafal2675 that doesn't change the fact that piano and guitar players can still play extremely fast for extended periods on a more complicated set of targets. All without looking at their hands, and often times while also dancing or singing, too. It also doesn't contest what I said about hand posture affecting your ability to develop speed.
@@rafal2675you’re arguing with guy about something different than what he’s talking about. He’s talking about economy of motion and you’re talking about muscle memory
I understand why it was done in the past but I totally agree with this decision. Obfuscating inputs with SOCD cleaning at a hardware level is literally just macros, they weren't implemented with malicious intent but easily could be. This change removes the weird grey area hardware level SOCD cleaning created and allows for software updates to resolve things without worrying about how peripheral manufacturers configured their controllers.
Thank you for making this video Brian_F. Been seeing so many discussions on this and other videos that just devolve into "it's a cheatbox" and don't explain the confusion that many of us have about what Capcom is trying to accomplish.
I think Hitboxes were more of an issue with Sf3 because of the way you could load up parries, blocks, and moves in the input buffer and really have a distinct advantage over levers. SF6 seems just slow enough (frame timing and animations)to where that advantage is way less OP and with the drive mechanics people can counter the insane input speeds of skilled Hitboxes players. I’ve had many nights getting destroyed and learning the timing of HitBox inputs on Fightcade. Can’t wait to play with erebody
I agree with Capcom, this time. "Fairness" and "Consistency" are actually good and precise reasons. The fact that both keyboard and PS pad are "official supported input peripherals", that it is simply best just align all other peripherals SOCD behaviour to keyboard & PS pad.
@@MANTISxB or watch this video and understand that if it is a problem, it's a problem with the software of the game, which is universal for everyone. Using a tool to gain a mechanical advantage over the opponent should never be allowed
@@randomcatname7792 I agree, I dislike how people playing on arcade sticks generally have such an advantage over me when I'm playing on a xbox controller :/ can we just ban sticks?
thanks for clearing this up, the chart was very helpful. I had understood the changes that were made incorrectly these changes don't sound like they're not for nerfing button box controllers, but just to make it consistent that all controllers have to go to neutral to go to an opposing direction. Seems fair enough
I think the ‘why’ and ‘what were they thinking’ is the easy part: just trying to correct a perceived unfairness and even the playing field. How they did with that goal is, well, a different story.. Side note- can you imagine if statements like this came with an official version of this Brian video? With examples, context, justification, etc? Wild
A really great breakdown of the whole situation; good shit brine. This decision was def made reactionarily, tho going back on it seems pretty unlikely now, just because they'll want to save face (or pretend to). Interested to see what'll happen.
Gamedevs should always be in charge of how to handle SOCD via software. Others have already mentioned the more obvious main reasons (different games need different rules, parity with all other controller types etc.), so I'll add my own: software can handle SOCD in much more complex ways than just simple hardware-level L + R = U + D = N for example. Consider a backdash (back-neutral-back). If SOCD cleanup rule is simply L + R = N, you could do easy backdash spamming by holding L and mashing R. However, if the gamedevs are privy to all the SOCD inputs a player makes, they could SPECIFICALLY disallow this method of backdashing when they detect this in their input interpreter, while still allowing/interpreting L + R = N for everything else. And this is just a simple example. With this, gamedevs get to decide which kinds of input "shortcuts" are allowed and aren't alllowed, with a much finer level of control.
A well informed objective response that not only offers a succinct explanation, but also provides valuable visual examples. Big thanks for doing the hard work gathering responses from other pro players and positing possible scenarios of what this change could affect. For someone, like me, who knows very little about hitbox this video was a boon of information. Much respect to you Brian for the perspective you offer. Your testicular sacrifice was, clearly, well rewarded with FGC knowledge.
I'm honestly entirely on the side of Capcom for this one. It should be up to the developers how pressing buttons interacts with the game, like how it is with most pads and keyboard as well.
If Capcom wants to make software in charge of how SOCD is interpreted, this makes sense to me rather than making special-case bans to try and cover things as they come up, even if it hurts a lot of people in the short-term (which does suck). The idea is presumably that long-term this is the better approach, and I can see that making sense if you're just looking at Capcom games. The trouble I see some people bringing up is that if other producers stick with the old standard, then players need to deal with different games having effectively different inputs for them to perform standard moves like flash kick, DP, and fireball, and that is its own long-term problem.
if Capcom can see all of the inputs in sf6 that means they can choose what's acceptable for each special move and make it harder for hitbox players on purpose by programming against SOCD shortcut special moves instead of the hardware doing it. So each special move is done in a way that they think is acceptable.
That removes the skill ceiling though... And punishes everyone, despite the problem just being one form of input. Move inputs are a part of balancing. For example "why not have one button reversals?" Because reversals would be too strong with less difficult inputs. Forcing diagonals and stuff increases the skill ceiling and forces more thought out reversal timings. Doesn't make sense to say inputs aren't a part of game balance.
Have an idea for a fun art project. Assign tones to each button to create music as someone plays a fighting game. It would be interesting to hear how everyone's song is unique yet similar. You could even give one player percussion sounds and the opponent melody tones to see how they work together.
There's a way to fix this in software: the older input should take precedence over the opposite directional input, instead of canceling it, and the opposite input shall be completely ignored, like it never happened. So if you hold down, then hold up, the game will treat that as a "down" only input, then if you release down, it doesn't go up because it ignored that "up". Then if you want to go up, you need to release up first, then press it again.
I agree 100%. Inputs on hitbox shouldn't be allowed to circumvent neutral and I'd with this method you can still circumvent it but it would atleast require frame perfect button swapping.
This would mean you cannot use a single keyboard, since that isn't even SOCD cleaning anymore. If you hold s on keyboard and press w after, w is sent to the computer. Software can't do anything about what the keyboard sends.
Well, if you take out a character specific benefit (guile flash kick) and put in a whole cast benefit (1F blocking) at least it really is more consistent, it doesn't benefit one single character, I don't think it's better, but it's definitely consistent.
@Brain_F. One comment about the back and forth nature of the hitbox 639 DP changes for SF6. I've been following this pretty closely and from what I can tell the 639 shortcut no longer working in SF6 isn't actually the direct result of tightening up the special move interpreter. Instead I think it resulted from a system wide removal of jump cancelling special moves, so 639 would still qualify as a valid DP input in SF6 but because it ends up a jump and jump cancelling is removed, it comes out as a jump instead of a DP. So the new hitbox changes make a little more sense in this light, as 639 was removed simply by jump cancelling being removed, and it was restored by a change intended to remove some lever-less charge move abuse.
As a hitbox guy, I think there is really only one option (besides letting it ride as is), which is let the software decide all cleaning, and the software make it a last-button priority system for SOCD. This means if you are pressing back and then press forward, the game reads that as back until back is let up. Once you let go of back and just have forward, you then get forward. But if you were pressing forward and then tapped back, you would keep advancing and not block until you let go of forward. This would introduce negative edge tricks (to flash kick you'd be holding down + up while charging and have to let go of down), but only really works as a trick for charge moves, is insanely awkward, forces the person to commit to weird situations, and has far less applications (as Brian said, letting go of a button is worse than pressing a button). The only nitpick here is what happens if there are no inputs, and then someone simultaneously presses opposite directions on the same frame, which I think should default to neutral.
Agreed for the most part, except for one thing. If you are holding left, then press and hold right, the game should keep reading that as left. Yes Once you let go of left, but keep holding right, the game should now read that as right. NO. -- I believe the game should drop that right input entirely. The only way to get a right input is to do it without holding left. So you would have to let go of left, then press right in order to get that input to start registering. That should prevent that 'negative edge' trick you described, and would behave closer to a regular joystick or dpad, where SOCD is impossible.
That would make it the most fair, in that there's no possible tricks, but as someone playing HB (and keyboard) it's so insanely easy to press two buttons at once when doing a back -> forward motion even when not trying to that it would just make it super frustrating to play normally. Something like trying to do a 6246 motion fast would make me quit lmao.
This change is a step in the right direction I think. To undermine hitbox innate brokeness, you need to take away it's ability to input neutral. As developers implement software SOCD cleaning, I think further experimentation will take place and allow for better balancing in the future, which is way I think this capcom push is ultimately going to be a good thing.
Chun Li's antiair in SF6 is down, down, that means that you are forced to stand when you release the first down. But now, you just can hold down the entire time and press up (neutral) and kick. It's the same because you stand when you press up, but I think it could be easier/faster with the new rule.
No you can't, I checked it with no SOCD controller and moraly dubious version of SF6 beta. Down down input requires two distinct instances of down. So first of all it has to be neutral down, you can't do down back twice. Second because it requires two distinct down inputs, you can't hold down press up for neutral and release up to get down again for a second down, even with negative edge turned on. You can hold down, press up twice and this will give you two distinct down inputs, but its not really faster than regular down down input. It is easier to do if you crouch, but again, can't do it from downblock. If you ever tried lever less it like socd dashing, just turned 90 degrees. You can dash forward by holding forward, and pressing back twice, but no one really argues that it's unfair.
Man, this is so confusing. I saw this video and I thought it would work for sure ruclips.net/user/shorts6Tu19VZCoMA?feature=share The instant DP works, right? The one with the jump. Chun's AA doesn't bother me because I was doing it pretty fast with double tapping but the other one is huge.
@@Harlec Yeah, 639 DPs work, but saying that it's unfair is disingenuous considering that there are alternative shortcuts that use b + f = n SOCD. 639 is the fastest shortcut you can do, but it's barely faster than current alternatives.
@@Sasiskin7823 to me is a matter of execution. I'm kind of new to hitbox (like 4 months) and from the right side I'm having a lot of problems. I wasn't using that shortcut on purpose because I knew it wasn't allowed in 6 and I didn't want to get used it, but since now is back, I'm going to start using it right now.
One thing to comment on is that capcom just wants the ability to control this in their software. Now that they have the sophistication as developers to implement socd inside the game it feels obvious to me that pairing input interpretation with the people who design the game mechanics seems like the obvious best choice to me. I really have no opinion on whether u + d = u or neutral and I feel for the competitors with the timing, but overall I have to say I'm happy that the SOCD interpretation is moving away from the hardware designers. In my perfect world we all just use identical input devices I don't really care which one. It just feels like whether its a hitbox or an antagonist board this is just a situation where its impossible to make everyone happy.
Hmm ok, if they are stopping up + down which used to = up, should now = neutral in street fighter 6, so hitboxes aren't really banned, it's just that movement of up and down (when held together.) will now be registered/seen to the game as neutral. Thanks Brian, cause I have seen other video's and they were saying that leverless controllers are banned and only DS controllers were allowed.
I believe the concern is that many leverless controllers currently do SOCD on their own, so games won't be able to tell the player is pressing Up+Down, it just sees Up. Leverless controllers needs a patch or some sort of switch that let's it disable its internal SOCD and let the game's software handle it.
I wonder if the sf6 socd software cleaning will prevent shortcuts. They might adjust the input interpreter to treat multiple direction inputs differently. Having it in the software side gives them more control so that even if technically the motion should work, they might make the motion not work with simultaneous inputs.
I fully agree that software level socd is the future, but wouldn't it be possible to resolve some issues by adding additional restrictions on the software side? eg: couldn't flash kick just require a minimum of 1 frame of neutral in software? Which would make the shortcut impossible
It is literally a switch statement or an if else chain inside of a loop. I could teach you how to do it within a hour. infact here is how to do it the easiest way I could think without knowing how the game engine works. Literally repeat this for all 4 directions or do it in a switch statement. unless I'm missing something that makes this basic check fail. for the benefit of everyone everything after "//" isnt seen by the code. while (true) { If (up = true) { if (down = true) {DO NOTHING} //code just does nothing DO NOTHIN is filler for literally blank brackets. else {jump} // jump would call a function or an object function to do then make a character jump. } } this can be done across the board (like how skullgirls does it) or character to character if you really want to. Like I said I could train you how to do this in around an hour max.
Very glad it's not banned, because this is the SAME thing that happened to pad players. Yet people simply adapted and accepted that all controllers have their own advantages.
Pad is just so widespread, because it comes with consoles and it’s used with everything on them too. You remove the ability to use a controller, 95%+ of the player population uses and there’s gonna be massive pushback, so people just learned to deal with it.
using brain age DS music fits so well in the video, it actually makes me digest the mass amount of info easier probably cuz I have instinctively turn on BRAIN CONCENTRATION MODE whenever I hear that music
Trivia: In Ninja Gaiden 1 on the NES pressing left and right simultaneously made Ryu move right with normal speed (and slide), even if he was in the middle of a leftward jump. This allowed to climb walls.
I think the reason Capcom did this was to neuter a new fight stick mod called The Antagonist. It lets you add a macro button which, when pressed, enters a directional input that is opposite to whatever direction you are inputting from your stick. Holding back to charge a sonic boom? Well just press the antagonist button then punch to immediately shoot out a sonic boom. All with little to no forward movement. Likewise, do the same thing for a moon kick using the appropriate buttons. This mod is meant to add hit box like functionality to levered sticks.
Along with SOCD cleaning, the game can do software-simulated stick transitions. If the hardware is sending "pure" input information, then they can equalize the controller advantages/disadvantages in software, and they probably want the arcade stick to be the canonical controller. This may be what they're thinking, but I think it will be a disaster of its own.
Since hardware SOCD is still needed for supporting older games I feel like their firmware should include an option to toggle hardware SOCD cleaning for newer games and let the software handle that. Sure up+down=neutral might be even worse but at least that change can then be reverted on software level via patching, I don't think that is something that should be handled on hardware level nowadays.
I get the feeling Capcom putting a 2 Mil Prize Pool set the stakes too high for themselves and the community which led to controversies like this in the interest of keeping a level playing field... Ideally hitbox should allow you to tweak your device's internal settings to set your SOCD cleaning (change DU from U to N on a whim)
i really don't get why hitboxes made up + down = up in the first place, neutral just makes so much more sense even when you don't consider balance implications. Left + right is neutral too why they gotta make it inconsistent like that
So my guess is.. they went with d+u=u because of charge characters. I only play sf titles (and massively casually) but I don't think charge up is a popular input... It's jump. Thus... They implement d+u=u so you can charge down and press up to jump. This bypasses the neutral horizon which is one of the key ideas behind having buttons for directions.
Interesting change from Capcom. From the developer perspective it makes sense that the software should decide what to do with the inputs. From the leverless user perspective it's a bit annoying as there will probably be a firmware update but that's about it
The issue here is that of charge character over all. They were designed as an execution challenge assuming lever controls. Now that we have moved over keys that execution challenge has been heavily compromised and they just provide easier inputs cause of it. The new control scheme is clashing with the outdated design. Imo the only way to solve the problem is to either make charge characters be low risk low reward types of things forcing them to win neutral more often to win while input characters get rewarded having to win less or you just get rid of charge as a concept altogether.
I view the rules change as a liability issue for Capcom. How can you as a Tournament Organizer allow controllers that fundamentally work in different ways? They clearly want all controller inputs/methods to work in the same fashion as a Dualshock4/DualSense controller at a hardware level. What you do beyond that starting point is up to the player. But for Capcom, all controllers must function the same way at a hardware level. I’d personally like them to revise the rule to allow L+R=Nothing. L+R should output to L+R like the ps4 pad.
It's an interesting conversation. Been following this since you made your first video touching on it. My math background couldn't help but see this concern mathematically: 4 (Left) + 6 (Right) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 4 and 6 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5 8 (Up) + 2 (Down) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 8 and 2 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5 I'm not for or against either method of SOCD (Up+Down=Up or Neutral), just thought it was interesting how my brain saw it mathematically
Coming from the perspective of a keyboard player, SOCD being handled on a software level is something that needed to happen eventually. It is pretty much impossible to find a keyboard to console converter that can handle SOCD since they're all made for FPS games and very few of them exist in the first place (especially if you don't live in NA) so any ruleset that forces SOCD to be handled on the hardware-side pretty much bans keyboard or any other controller not made specifically for the FGC (Which is also a huge accessability issue for all non-pad players that can't afford to/don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a proper stick/leverless controller.) Of course while it's valid to disagree with the new standard (I don't personally care either way) it is very understandable to me that it is a rule that you can no longer handle SOCD on hardware level at all, since it is modifying your inputs like a macro (though of course infinitely less harmful, but still.) While I agree with the sentiment that the already existing community standard should have been used, I think ultimately the shift from hardware SOCD to software SOCD is incredibly important.
I am an outsider, and it's interesting to see that many of the comments agree with my initial opinion that it should be done by the game developer and not the controller developer. By masking the inputs of the player, it is harder for the game developer to accurately make adjustments to these discrepancies that arise due to SOCD. This change allows for a more fair playing field long down the road, despite possibly having immediate consequences.
All this only applies to CPT level tournaments which lets be honest, 99% of players don't even try to attend. The capcops are not checking your SOCD hardware settings every time you jump on your silver ranked Cammy for a few games. People saying that hitboxes are now a $300 coaster are out of touch.
I caught James Chen's breakdown on stream awhile back, so this isn't new to me, but it's great to see this covered thouroughly and succinctly for those new to the hB drama. I'm glad to see leverless controller manufacturers rolling out firmware updates for their customers. Time will tell if this ruling really does lead to a definitive overall advantage for shotos; I anticipate changes coming on the software & input shortcut side of things. This approach does seem more intuitive, if nothing else. If they reverse the ruling, there will be another wave of hB drama. 😅
These changes feel like they're attempting to help stick, but honestly how many new players are even using stick? I know more personally that play on keyboard than stick. New players are playing pad, and if they want a fighting controller they get a hitbox. If Capcom is absolutely certain this change will make the game more balanced I would understand, but it feels more like they want to bring stick up while annoying consumers. They aren't even solving the problem of simultaneous inputs. Feels like a pointless change for today
Isn't the main goal of this change to just standardize equipment? Having a pad up+down give something different than a hitbox up+down is a problem in itself, and as you all state the end result of the direction combo doesnt matter; either way the input becomes abusable, so might as well make it consistent across all controllers
This was an awesome video that puts all the chaos into perspective. I'm almost certain though they aren't full on banning leverless due to advertisement/sponsorship reasons. (I say this as someone who legit just bought a snackbox recently)
Capcom has been on a weird chain of decisions over the last couple years. Not just with fighting games but all their I.P.s. I'm excited to play 6, however if they wish to govern what hardware I use to play it: I'll just play one of the plethora of other amazing games the FGC will be getting this year/already has. I am not shackled to them like a High-Level Player and/or Content Creator would be. Thanks for this amazing and detailed coverage of the situation.
My main opinion on this is that SOCD in older games, yes, should be hardware controlled as the software has no SOCD cleaning, but in modern games where developers are aware of how to clean SOCD, should be entirely based on the software, the hardware should not be controlling how the game is played, that's the job of the software. And as well as this, if the devs find that a certain SOCD cleaning is too strong, they can change it on the fly. Yes, different games would have different SOCD cleaning, but that is what would work for the game. I will always stand by the point, not just in the FGC, that the software should always control how the game is played, not the hardware.
The fact cheatbox can release a Firmware patch to make any SOCD output they want points to the fact that what they're outputting to the game is at the software level for Hitbox. Allowing you to change it would effectively make U+D = whatever they want it to be. It's a straight up macro. Why not an option for U+D = pretzel motion? In all cases, what you are outputting to the game is simulated, and not reality. The ability of SOCD creates all sorts of strategies that the developers didn't balance the game around because fighting games have always been developed with levered movement in mind. We can argue until the cows come home, but until developers actually analyze the impact leverless controllers have and make rules/corrections to it IN GAME (Like perhaps adding a human-like delay to all SOCD, first/last wins priority, etc.) and the controllers actually output what is input (U+D and not whatever you program it to be), cheaters are gonna stay cheating by simulating nonexistent inputs.
This gets to the nub of it. I see a hitbox as the FGC equivalent of an athlete augmenting his performance with drugs or maybe cybernetic implants. Sure, it improves the performance, but that's not the point. It goes against the essential spirit of the game.
Brian you're my favorite streamer and I don't want to see you banned! I'm willing to sacrifice my tournament career and take the Hitbox off your hands. Nearly free of charge, you only have to pay the shipping!
In beta 2 modern control Ryu can do shinkuu hadoken by pressing two buttons and shin shoryu by pressing down+ two buttons. I also found out that many players expect and rely on seeing you buffer your supers. Either by standing and crouching at regular intervals, or by whiffing special cancelable normals. The modern control input doesn't have a tell. And it's so fast and reliable that it allowed a player of moderate skill like me to actually whiff punish with Shin Shoryu. And that's Ryu. If Gief and Lily do have 360° and 720° motions then modern controls will make any hitbox shortcut look slow af. Oh, and afaik, Capcom will allow MC in tournaments.
I’m not a software engineer so I’m not sure if I’m missing something but why doesn’t Capcom just make it to were if it receives socd it registers all inputs as neutral so that you can’t get forward or up. If you are holding down and back then press up all three directions now equal neutral. Basically if you press more than 2 directions at the same time you will just get neutral. That solves all the problems
The problem is that a hitbox isn't sending socd inputs, it only sends up, so the software has no way to know what was pressed. What they want is esentially for the Hitbox to send all the inputs, and not modify them at the hardware level.
If Capcom is worried about a Flash Kick that doesn't go through neutral, they could just force the animation to always go through neutral, regardless of what the controller sends. It seems so weird to target the controller. All of the other balancing they do is at the frame data level. Add a frame here, subtract a frame there. If the controller sends down, up it would be trivial for the game to insert a neutral into the input stream.
I remember watching you play sf4 like 8-9-10 years ago, I started playing on keyboard which is basically what a hitbox is and only transitioned to stick because you couldn't bring a keyboard to a tournament and play on because they were all on xbox or whatever it was, good times
yeah i prefer keyboard due to how my hands work (i uses to be a guitar playing who loved tapping), so I'd prefer hitbox over arcade controller any day lol
I think Capcom might keep this ruling and manually patch out the other exploits it brought back at the software level, possibly even go as far as having different SOCD cleaning per character in Street Fighter 6.
The "levelling the playing field" argument is such a crock of shit imo. Back in the SF4 days (and prior), when the debate on which controller to use was mostly limited to pad vs stick, peeps didn't seem very interested in "levelling the playing field" between those two choices then; in fact, a lot of people seemed pretty eager to blather on and on and on about how pad was vastly inferior and you were limiting yourself by not learning stick. Now that traditional arcade sticks are the "inferior" (not really) option though, it's apparently incredibly important that we make sure this one specific input style is not superseded by new technology that's more comfortable for some competitors. Nevermind that the entire point of different input devices is that they all have different strengths and weaknesses. No, screw any sort of advancement in technology, it's apparently critical that the developers get involved and ensure that a specific piece hardware is not allowed to have advantages over stick. All that said, having the software handle SOCD cleaning makes plenty of sense, trying to get to that point as their goal is fine. I just hate such a lame-ass argument being trotted out.
I swear it just comes down to most FG vets are on stick and most of those also have access to a keyboard and a pad. They've been able to compare the experiences of playing on each input device and concluded that they are inherently not far apart, or that they vastly prefer the feel of one over the other, deeming the others inferior. Most don't have access to a hitbox style controller due to their rarity and price throughout the years, so they only have the tech videos and the knowledge that a few top players use them to refer to, and with that limited information conclude that the controller is "broken". There are probably more top pad than leverless players atm, and the KoF scene is almost entirely on stick still. It's almost entirely a non-issue outside of niche exploits.
consider myself an outsider to the fgc so I don’t fully get the impact these controllers have (also played DbfZ on a keyboard for a bit cause my controller was too far but It felt fine to me after a bit) but I’m genuinely amazed to see such discourse over someone allowing you to hold 2 directions, meanwhile most fps games have yet to even bother discussing controller aim assist vs mnk and in certain cases just let one side take over without even bothering to address it. I have no input on this current topic but I am glad that the fgc are passionate enough about their games and fair competition that it’s actively being looked at. You all have my respect
The thing is, increased precision in input means that detection has to become less lenient. This isn't really a problem per se, but it does mean that an expensive peripheral will just be better than the stock option (in most cases). You can't ban controller and keyboard because they are the stock option and predate these games and thus aren't designed to circumvent intended inputs. Hitbox is clearly intended to circumvent intended input. I think capcom's decision is correct. Just set all opposing cardinals to neutral. They may need to also limit direction input reading to 2 at a time. Just set 3 directions to neutral.
thing is, implementing SOCD rules on the software level is extremely simple, so the fact that it took this many years for a major dev to address the issue is mindboggling. i understand why capcom went this route, as it makes perfect sense. having hardware use custom SOCD rules, like U+D=U on hitbox creates this sort of gray area where you're not sure what should be legal in terms of controller use. let the game decide what to do, as that's more fair.
If I'm understanding this right... Over the years, developers of Street Fighter have acknowledged that a lever stick is not the most accurate control method, so they've added shortcuts into the software for certain motions. The problem becomes that when you have a precise control method, suddenly those shortcuts can be abused. The solution is to then change the way those precise control methods work, be they an all-buttons solution or a controller, so they can't abuse those shortcuts? It feels like being beholden to an archaic control method, a lever, is just bad for everyone.
I think I have a simple solution. If you're holding D, U should not register. So while holding D, pressing U will not cause neutral or any other direction change; the game will continue registering D. U inputs are simply dropped by the software unless D is let go. Same behaviour for L and R. I believe this will break all the leverless exclusive shortcuts described in the video, which I think is what Capcom intended to do. Of course this can only work if the software handles SOCD, so the rule is necessary.
I grew up on standard console controllers, but even new simultaneous inputs aside, I've been loving keyboards for just how fast you can press them by keeping a finger on each. Might wanna change WASD to something like WAXD with the thumb on X, very weird to get used to, but it's very quick and perfectly precise once you do. I play SSX 3 on a normal PS5 controller, you use the D-pad to flip and spin, and just sometimes, it makes me spin/flip in a direction that should not be possible to press with where my thumb is, for example, I don't trust these things. Might just be a bit of dust under there, or what have you, but I keep it pretty clean and it's been this way, so that doesn't really excuse it. I wish there was just some perfect kind of modular controller that everyone embraced, with the ability to have it in the left hand only, and a multi-button mouse in the right. On the note of SSX 3, I play Gamecube cause emulation is smoothest there and Xbox's controls SUCK, dumb combinations baked into the inputs even if I could reassign. The thing is... The GC has one less button, and thus one less trick modifier. Z? I guess this one is at least on kinda the correct axis.
I grew up on arcade sticks and havent been in the fighting game scene for maybe over 15 years. It's so interesting to see what has changed and how this impacts the gaming.
Man, being a pad player can be pretty chill at times. Honestly it's an interesting change, I think SOCD should be handled by the games and not by the pad, the change capcom made pretty much forces SOCD to be the same across the board, no matter what input method you are using
I think the main idea is that hardware is not making input decisions (beyond raw presses) when one type of input device allows inputs that others do not. I don't think it is specifically about down/up, but that is the HitBox specific impact.
I feel like this is worth mentioning because it gets brought up a lot but MVC3 is hardly the first game to answer the question of how SOCD should be handled, even for Capcom, in fact them fixing it very quickly makes it more of an oversight in rushing the game out than not knowing what to do with leverless controllers (or pads). The larger problem here is just Hitbox per usual clinging to their powercreep, its unsurprising given how much of their marketing is aggressively based on OS advantages and so on that they want to keep things they are. The "larger community" they name I don't really see? Most leverless and keyboard players I know dislike the larger Hitbox brand for this stuff in particular. The fact that they want the final say on SOCD, regardless of what the solution is, is just dumb. All of this would be solved immediately if SOCD cleaners were banned altogether btw. They are literally not needed unless you play an ancient game on like a snes or smth and lets be real most would do so on an emulator anyway.
As a game series comes from arcade period, Capcom doesn't want the traditional control to be eliminated. That's why the they cancel 639 DP and 2626 CA(has to be a ↘ inbetween in SF6). But now this new rule end up 636 DP return, and 22 (↓↓) command easier.
I have no idea why anyone would say that leverless controllers are more difficult/more taxing to use than pad/stick. I think you just don't fully consider that on hitbox you are still in the process of re-learning/mastering motion inputs, which in comparison feel more taxing than doing them on a stick you are already a master of, but if you have anywhere near the same amount of experience on both controllers then leverless ones are just so immensely easier and less taxing. I'm not talking about just a "higher skill cieling potential" but about doing the same shit of any kind being MUCH easier on leverless. I'm also not talking about just personal experience, I've tried to introduce So many of my friends to fighting games, and the results have Always been the same: they struggled very heavily to do motion inputs (especially super inputs) on a pad, while they very quickly adapted to do them on a keyboard. Even with my non newbie friends with hundreds of hours behind them, there is such a noticable difference of frequency of dropped inputs when we play on pad vs when we play on keyboard. Lever controllers objectively take more precision and fine motor skills to use on all skill levels, they objectively require more movement/travel time, they are objectively more difficult and this shouldn't be a matter of perspective. As much as I love playing on keyboard every now and then, I legitimately think leverless controllers shouldn't be allowed in competitive play at all because if they remain allowed then they will completely overtake the competitive scene (as they are already in the process of doing that wich more and more pros making the switch). Even without the SOCD exploits, leverless controllers offer a direct, objective adventage on all skill levels and not just a "potentially higher skill cieling". They aren't "more precise version of the same input methods", they are just different input methods that just make it so you have less physical moves you have to do thus reduce the moments where you can fuck up inputs by skipping them. Fighting game motion inputs were meant to be done with mimicing them with physical motions, this is not just a balance design but a "fantasy" part of fighting games too, and leverless controllers WILL kill physical motions eventually in high level play if they are allowed to stay, there is no question about that.
Highly disagree that leverless is better for every motion. 360's/720's from any position and half circles (depending on context/previous input position) are far easier/more intuitive on lever. I think hitbox is better for MOST applications, but not all.
@@Brian_F motion inputs are obviously more intuitive on a lever because it's more obvious what you have to do, but doing motions means using fine motor skills which is harder for humans to develop than just having to learn order and timing of button presses that just happen to be initially less intuitive. I played a lot of KoF games with my friends on pad and keyboard too, games with much less input leniency, requiring perfect half circles and the results have been Always the same. It's much harder to do perfect half circle motion during a combo or during quick reaction vs having to tap 3 buttons. The latter is much faster and more reliant with a very noticable difference. Sure, for a total newcomer it might be more intuitive to do the motion than to learn an unusual timing of overlapping button presses And releases, but even with just a moderate amount of practice leverless will quickly outperform lever controllers because the actual actions you have to do on leverless are just objectively much simpler. 720s are very rare (and are also designed in a way where they give you time to input them, instead of you having to do them as fast as you can) and leverless controllers requiring unusually lot of practrice for this particular input doesn't balance out the fact that it's just much faster at everything you actually constantly have to do as fast as you can. For a 360, with pressing 4 buttons you can still outperform actual physical circle motions, even if circle motions remain easier to do on a stick (not even on a pad) for a longer amount of time. But regardless, if lever controllers had an adventage with this move, this is just way too little.
As usual, BrianF explaining complex stuff like this in chunks anyone can understand - whether or not you consider yourself part of the FGC. Strong work as always...
Doing my best, thank you
@@Brian_F I am wondering how much this change would affect other games. I am not saying other developers - Bamco, ArcSys, et al. - will make similar changes. I believe having these choices of hardware SOCD will introduce other tech - which you note as well. We'll see...
@@Brian_Fcan explain trigonometry to a 1st grader
As someone who only occasionally watches but doesn't participate in the FGC, Brian is the best at explaining all these things for a layman like myself. No one else comes close imo
Bring back the beard, Brian! 😎🥹
Didn't watch the video just here to argue
I disagree with you
Cheatbox turned shitbox, cry harder soyjacks
@AweEnvy I agree with you
A true FGC participant
@@aweenvy I don’t think that true.
I think software being in charge of SOCD should be standard. When we think about it, what happens when you push buttons is a game mechanic. It should be up to the developers to decide what happens for each game, not to controller manufacturers. Keyboards and pads already leave it to the developers, so leverless should do too. Even if we want to play old games we have ways to write our own software to clean it up, Fightcade has SOCD clean up at their software so it SOCD on the firmware shouldn't be allowed anymore, it just limits developers.
So no more, up and down and kicking won’t work?
I'm fine with this idea in theory, but the FGC has been a community long associated with legacy. We regularly play games that are quite old and that's fine because of what those games can still offer us as players. UMVC3 is coming back to Evo this year, for crying out loud. That's pretty nuts!
I personally love going back to older games like USF4 and SFxT, but those games wouldn't handle SOCD stuff like modern games (and thus wouldn't work well with a controller that did no cleaning of its own). I don't want to have to buy another $2-300 just because some suit is worried about a tiny, insignificant "advantage" that one controller setup provides over another. It's silly and if we get going down this road, everyone will just keep obsessing over "fairness" when all sports (of the e variety or not) have never been fair to begin with. This whole fiasco is dumb.
@@omarfelix5540 Each game does it its way. If Strive wants to up+down=up and SF6 wants up+down=neutral, so it will be. If they ever change their mind, they can patch it. But with SOCD on the firmware, they're both (and all other games) locked to the manufacturer's desire with no way to patch it out.
@@drbobcat6 We don't need SOCD on the controller's firmware to play these games, you can add a software layer that translates the controller inputs, Steam always did that. In fact, Fightcade has SOCD on them too, 99% of the people playing 3rd Strike today play it through Fightcade and you can play with your keyboard with the decided upon SOCD community agreement.
@@rafaelbordoni516 Not every game supports steam input, nor does everyone use fightcade. I will concede that most hardcore FGC people do know their way around technical questions. I also don't really mind if they DO actually pursue a genuine, consistent standard. I simply don't believe this was as well thought out as it could've been. That's obvious simply given how they claim to want to try to level the playing field, but still only allowed for previous shortcuts to return. There's also little said about enforcement, or even whether any of this can be enforced online (where most play will take place).
The hastiness of the decision and the lack of consistency comes across as more of a reactive decision, not a well-researched undertaking. That is also not unusual given Capcom's response to other things in the past (the use of mods on PC being a great example).
P.S. I use a leverless controller for health reasons as my disability makes a standard stick a no-go. I don't play charge characters that often anymore, though, so it's not as though I'm losing anything here. My critique is directed at their rationale and the overall obsessive mindset people have towards fairness.
I have to wonder if Capcom's reasoning is just:
1) software should be in charge of SOCD
2) as Brian says input shortcuts will be around no matter what, so let's just have all SOCD = neutral for consistency
1) is literally it.
Parity between software side and hardware side SOCD cleaning.
Up priority has been the community standard for a decade. Why not just make the game comply to that if the goal is consistency?
@@evilded2 They could, but only if the Hitbox actually gave SOCD to the game. If hitbox masks the input then the game has no idea what's happening.
@@evilded2 this, I don't play charge characters but I am not excited to have my muscle memory messed with.
@@evilded2 "community standard" counts for jack if it's not the specific game's standard.
Having SOCD at the software level (which it should be in this day in age) means they can make changes in the future.
It would be so cool. I play on keyboard cause I suck in dpads and got no money to afford a hitbox style controller. But, Strive, Tekken 7, KOF XV and Fightcade helped me a lot with software SOCD. It is strange that Capcom still don't do that nowadays
@@astjuly8239 But Capcom does do it. They've been doing it since SF5. The game (software) does the SOCD cleaning if it receives L+R or U+D from the controller.
But not the true neutral or the L+R=N, like Tekken, GG and KOF does, at least not for keyboards that is my point
@@astjuly8239 It should. If you're inputting raw data without any SOCD (even on KB). 8+2=5. Moving forward all new games are being built with Hitbox in mind. Older games should just use a legacy mode which should be 8+2=8.
@@MansMan42069 Software SOCD been in Capcom street fighter games since at least SFIV.
As an outsider, Capcom's general decision to just have software handle SOCD makes the most sense. This way it standardizes all of the different input methods. So Hitbox won't be different than keyboard or pad, for example.
Why Capcom has decided that the software level SOCD should be up+down = neutral is another discussion entirely. Though if they push for the removal of hardware level SOCD for their games, then patching up+down = up (or whatever) is easy to do.
The thing is you're still allowed to have hardware side SOCD as long as it's the same SOCD as the software (which is obviously only really enforceable on in person tournanents). Your box can still have SOCD cleaning, and thus it pbbly will so it is useable in older games, they haven't ruled that out, it just has to always clean to neutral.
While I do like the idea of them being able to experiment, I'm sure the box players are not gonna appreciate the inconsistency from game to game, or patches that invalidate the muscle memory.
@@marcossantos1998 welcome to the world of videogames where inputs can be inconsistent and if you have a unique or non-standard input it's either ignored, directed to 3rd party, or standardized how the dev sees fit. I don't see a reason to be upset for the most part tbh.
two opposite directions at the same time should be neutral.
They probably went with that specificaly to show the world how they made Hitbox bend the knee. Capcom strong!
You're spot on when it comes to releasing buttons just being sloppy, particularly with your middle and ring fingers. I've been re-learning Jojo's Heritage for the Future and Jotaro utilizes Hyper Hops for his bnbs as they allow for crazy extensions when paired with certain moves. Turns out, while you can just hold down and hit up for hyper hops in KOF, Jojo requires you to let go of down and stand up before hyper hops can be done. This actually makes the hyper hops fairly tricky as a lot of times I'll hit up before I have finished releasing down, resulting in Jotaro doing a normal hop and dropping the combo. On Stick this is just not something that can happen, as you will never accidentally be pressing down while hitting up, that's just not possible.
glad somebody as reliable as Brian made a video for this, he layed it all out very clean and smart. Thanks for the explanation, keep it up Brian
My guess is they get rid of shortcuts that allow you to circumvent a transition (crouch to stand/ stand to crouch) that you would normally go through. That seemed to be the flashkick nerf. And if other atuff becomes easier or harder than so be it.
I agree. Being able to skip the standing animation of Guile's flash kick is a case of the controller actually changing the functionality of a move. The easier overhead blocking or easier quarter circle forward motion doesn't actually change how those actions play out, they're just more ergonomic.
They could have easily fixed it by just forcing a transition considering they have buffering anyway.
Up + down = 1f neutral, then jump.
Make it so down to up always gives you 1f of neutral no matter how fast you do it, just make it automatic and buffer and it won't effect inputs because the buffer will save the person's input anyway.
There, fixed. Now no one gets frame perfect flash kick even if you did manage to move your stick from down to up in 1f.
@@Saskaruto16 no because this still allows for brain-dead 1 frame transitions, which should be difficult to do. not only that but forcing a frame of neutral could also be abused in many games.
@@Silk_OG
A 1 frame transition is still more fair than a 0 frame transition which is what it currently is on the hitbox style. The problem with the 0 transition is that you don't enter the neutral to get hit by certain setplay situations that are normally true block/hit confirms of force the opponent to remain croutching, etc. This would fix that issue.
The only thing I can think of that could really be abused by having the frame or 2 of neutral before moving to Up would be that tiger knee would be easier, but that's already cheatable in other ways, and it's even easier with Up+down = neutral anyway so it's irrelevant. Idk about certain anime fighter shenanigans though.
The problem is that no matter what system is used, there will always be things that can be abused about leverless controllers, especially the hitbox style, no matter what the SOCD is.
Up+Down = up: Easy 0f transition flash kicks. Dumb, yes, but not as bad as some other alternatives.
Up+Down = Neutral: Broken high low and fuzzy guarding, Z motion cheats, etc. Multiple people have talked about how much more abuse this has than the former.
Up+Down = 1-2f neutral, then Up, is at least closer to a standard controller/level input style where a person has to transition between those states normally for at least a couple frames. Yes a pad or stick could theoretically do it in 0 frames, even Bryan said he couldn't do it more than 1 in 10 times in practice let alone in game, so not realistic. Does it make tiger knee braindead? Yes. However TK is braindead on pretty much any hitbox style, with Up+Down = Neutral being by far the easiest.
Unless there is some super specific abuse issue that could happen from adding 1-2f of neutral that I don't know about, I don't see a reason to not add that as an option.
@@Saskaruto16 your forgetting the one true fair option, last input. If it always cleans to the last input then it stops all this nonsense and puts hitbox back on fair grounds. So when someone hits left- then right- then releases right. it will come out to left-right-neutral, instead of reverting to left on right release making it left-right-left. Same exact system with up down. (So hitting up while down is pressed makes the game stop recognizing down inputs until pressed again. Its a combination of opposite inputs and negative edge inputs that make leverless methods unfair. Until they adopt this then leverless will never be fair and able to do stuff not physically possible on stick or pad.
Interestingly, this is the case with the original Hitbox. Other leverless controllers do it differently. Someone I know has a hitbox that cleans to Last Input + Up, while mine has a cheap Chinese board that cleans to Left + Down, and apparently there are even more type of SOCD boards out there.
Basically antagonist
Make a leverless controller that cleans to every single direction
Cleaning to last input would be so sick for instant no-neutral sonic booms
Such an AMAZING video. Well informed and presented. Thank you.
It hasnt even been out long enough to watch the whole thing bro
@@aero9710 but I did, I wrote my comment and was prepared to edited it. However, I realized I didn't have to. My opinion still stands.
@@char-rez83Big brain strats
This is really hard to enforce. For in-person events they'll have to have mandatory button checks where you display the SOCD behavior to a judge/ref. For online events it's undetectable unless you require handcams, which is impractical.
Here’s the problem, if a player can switch the SOCD on the fly (like see the tweet by Junkfood Arcades for their Snackbox) would it matter if a judge inspected the controller before the fight?
So even in-person it’s really not feasible.
@@malcovich_games If there's a visual indicator, then it's potentially detectable. If there's not, it would come down to integrity. Either way, I think there's value in having a verified starting point.
@@VinceOfAllTrades Junkfood’s Snackbox already has an indicator light but older hitbox models don’t.
But also, I would not rely on “integrity”… some people would try to win at all costs. Heh heh.
If the game itself records inputs (possibly including how long it's held) and allows judges to read them, it's enforceable, but it would take to long
@@randomcatname7792 Yeah it should be pretty easy to see if a player is consistently changing from down to up in 1 frame multiple times in a match. Then ask to inspect the controller after the match.
Lifting your fingers to release a button being slower is a posture thing. You could learn from guitar players on that point. The main trick is that your hand needs to be positioned so that neutral is release. That way, you press with muscular speed, and when you release you don't have to physically pick up your hand, you just relax it and your fingers will snap back to neutral automatically. If your fingers are set on the buttons, you'll be slower. You probably already do this on your attack button side. For this reason I've always been surprised that there isn't some kind of palm rest, or at least palm positioning dent/ridge, on sticks and hitboxes. So you can maintain your position by feel.
No. It's like at one side, someone making a chord and the other side someone making an aperggio. The chord will be always easier and faster.
@@rafal2675 that doesn't change the fact that piano and guitar players can still play extremely fast for extended periods on a more complicated set of targets. All without looking at their hands, and often times while also dancing or singing, too. It also doesn't contest what I said about hand posture affecting your ability to develop speed.
The reason why I prefer playing fightings on keyboard is because I used to play on guitar and do two-handed tapping and what not :D
@@rafal2675you’re arguing with guy about something different than what he’s talking about. He’s talking about economy of motion and you’re talking about muscle memory
I was going to say that I never have that problem on keyboard because I'm a guitarist.
I understand why it was done in the past but I totally agree with this decision. Obfuscating inputs with SOCD cleaning at a hardware level is literally just macros, they weren't implemented with malicious intent but easily could be. This change removes the weird grey area hardware level SOCD cleaning created and allows for software updates to resolve things without worrying about how peripheral manufacturers configured their controllers.
Thank you for making this video Brian_F. Been seeing so many discussions on this and other videos that just devolve into "it's a cheatbox" and don't explain the confusion that many of us have about what Capcom is trying to accomplish.
They banned the dk bongos. What has the fgc come to?
As a layman who just purchased the Vitrix $400 box, this was really informative, thank you for the long-form breakdown!
Return it
You said that clearly....in layman's terms
Hope they releasing firmware to update the socd too like hitbox
FS12? dang
So what does it mean, is it a good news 😅?
I've been experimenting with the new SOCD, and ironically this change probably makes box better/more consistent for people who play motion characters.
I think Hitboxes were more of an issue with Sf3 because of the way you could load up parries, blocks, and moves in the input buffer and really have a distinct advantage over levers. SF6 seems just slow enough (frame timing and animations)to where that advantage is way less OP and with the drive mechanics people can counter the insane input speeds of skilled Hitboxes players. I’ve had many nights getting destroyed and learning the timing of HitBox inputs on Fightcade. Can’t wait to play with erebody
I agree with Capcom, this time. "Fairness" and "Consistency" are actually good and precise reasons. The fact that both keyboard and PS pad are "official supported input peripherals", that it is simply best just align all other peripherals SOCD behaviour to keyboard & PS pad.
@@MANTISxB or watch this video and understand that if it is a problem, it's a problem with the software of the game, which is universal for everyone.
Using a tool to gain a mechanical advantage over the opponent should never be allowed
@@MANTISxB They bring back shortcuts that's always there for keyboard & pad. Also there wasn't "standard", only customs.
@@randomcatname7792 I agree, I dislike how people playing on arcade sticks generally have such an advantage over me when I'm playing on a xbox controller :/ can we just ban sticks?
@@EternalSeki the problem with winning stick is that they were the original intended input method for fighting games in general.
@@MANTISxB You're using hardware to cheat mate. You don't deserve any chill.
thanks for clearing this up, the chart was very helpful. I had understood the changes that were made incorrectly
these changes don't sound like they're not for nerfing button box controllers, but just to make it consistent that all controllers have to go to neutral to go to an opposing direction. Seems fair enough
Been on hitbox since 2014, can't wait to lose my muscle memory :)
Good vid Brian, great overview and nice takes.
I think the ‘why’ and ‘what were they thinking’ is the easy part: just trying to correct a perceived unfairness and even the playing field. How they did with that goal is, well, a different story.. Side note- can you imagine if statements like this came with an official version of this Brian video? With examples, context, justification, etc? Wild
A really great breakdown of the whole situation; good shit brine.
This decision was def made reactionarily, tho going back on it seems pretty unlikely now, just because they'll want to save face (or pretend to). Interested to see what'll happen.
Gamedevs should always be in charge of how to handle SOCD via software.
Others have already mentioned the more obvious main reasons (different games need different rules, parity with all other controller types etc.), so I'll add my own: software can handle SOCD in much more complex ways than just simple hardware-level L + R = U + D = N for example.
Consider a backdash (back-neutral-back). If SOCD cleanup rule is simply L + R = N, you could do easy backdash spamming by holding L and mashing R.
However, if the gamedevs are privy to all the SOCD inputs a player makes, they could SPECIFICALLY disallow this method of backdashing when they detect this in their input interpreter, while still allowing/interpreting L + R = N for everything else. And this is just a simple example.
With this, gamedevs get to decide which kinds of input "shortcuts" are allowed and aren't alllowed, with a much finer level of control.
A well informed objective response that not only offers a succinct explanation, but also provides valuable visual examples.
Big thanks for doing the hard work gathering responses from other pro players and positing possible scenarios of what this change could affect. For someone, like me, who knows very little about hitbox this video was a boon of information.
Much respect to you Brian for the perspective you offer. Your testicular sacrifice was, clearly, well rewarded with FGC knowledge.
thank you for the great breakdown. immediately think of daigo's guile / how he pushed the limits of guile moveset in sf5.
Subscribed! Because rational, clear explanations of what are considered controversal and possibly confusing topics are good.
I'm honestly entirely on the side of Capcom for this one. It should be up to the developers how pressing buttons interacts with the game, like how it is with most pads and keyboard as well.
Nah.
@KhyrisEidan incredible counter argument
If Capcom wants to make software in charge of how SOCD is interpreted, this makes sense to me rather than making special-case bans to try and cover things as they come up, even if it hurts a lot of people in the short-term (which does suck). The idea is presumably that long-term this is the better approach, and I can see that making sense if you're just looking at Capcom games. The trouble I see some people bringing up is that if other producers stick with the old standard, then players need to deal with different games having effectively different inputs for them to perform standard moves like flash kick, DP, and fireball, and that is its own long-term problem.
if Capcom can see all of the inputs in sf6 that means they can choose what's acceptable for each special move and make it harder for hitbox players on purpose by programming against SOCD shortcut special moves instead of the hardware doing it. So each special move is done in a way that they think is acceptable.
That removes the skill ceiling though... And punishes everyone, despite the problem just being one form of input.
Move inputs are a part of balancing. For example "why not have one button reversals?" Because reversals would be too strong with less difficult inputs. Forcing diagonals and stuff increases the skill ceiling and forces more thought out reversal timings.
Doesn't make sense to say inputs aren't a part of game balance.
Great video dude. Thanks for actually clearing up all the misconceptions!
You might be the peak of FGC content
Brian's always been the 🐐
Have an idea for a fun art project.
Assign tones to each button to create music as someone plays a fighting game.
It would be interesting to hear how everyone's song is unique yet similar.
You could even give one player percussion sounds and the opponent melody tones to see how they work together.
There's a way to fix this in software: the older input should take precedence over the opposite directional input, instead of canceling it, and the opposite input shall be completely ignored, like it never happened. So if you hold down, then hold up, the game will treat that as a "down" only input, then if you release down, it doesn't go up because it ignored that "up". Then if you want to go up, you need to release up first, then press it again.
I agree 100%. Inputs on hitbox shouldn't be allowed to circumvent neutral and I'd with this method you can still circumvent it but it would atleast require frame perfect button swapping.
This is definitely the best solution I've read
This would mean you cannot use a single keyboard, since that isn't even SOCD cleaning anymore. If you hold s on keyboard and press w after, w is sent to the computer. Software can't do anything about what the keyboard sends.
@@kelvinn1996 There's no reason software wouldn't be able to handle it if all inputs are sent.
As someone who doesn't really know anything about all these boxes, and even with Brian explaining everything perfectly. My brain is melting lol
Well, if you take out a character specific benefit (guile flash kick) and put in a whole cast benefit (1F blocking) at least it really is more consistent, it doesn't benefit one single character, I don't think it's better, but it's definitely consistent.
@Brain_F. One comment about the back and forth nature of the hitbox 639 DP changes for SF6. I've been following this pretty closely and from what I can tell the 639 shortcut no longer working in SF6 isn't actually the direct result of tightening up the special move interpreter. Instead I think it resulted from a system wide removal of jump cancelling special moves, so 639 would still qualify as a valid DP input in SF6 but because it ends up a jump and jump cancelling is removed, it comes out as a jump instead of a DP. So the new hitbox changes make a little more sense in this light, as 639 was removed simply by jump cancelling being removed, and it was restored by a change intended to remove some lever-less charge move abuse.
Does that mean that you literally can't do 360 from neutral in SF6? Doesn't whole input hinges on you cancelling your prejump frames into spd?
As a hitbox guy, I think there is really only one option (besides letting it ride as is), which is let the software decide all cleaning, and the software make it a last-button priority system for SOCD. This means if you are pressing back and then press forward, the game reads that as back until back is let up. Once you let go of back and just have forward, you then get forward. But if you were pressing forward and then tapped back, you would keep advancing and not block until you let go of forward. This would introduce negative edge tricks (to flash kick you'd be holding down + up while charging and have to let go of down), but only really works as a trick for charge moves, is insanely awkward, forces the person to commit to weird situations, and has far less applications (as Brian said, letting go of a button is worse than pressing a button).
The only nitpick here is what happens if there are no inputs, and then someone simultaneously presses opposite directions on the same frame, which I think should default to neutral.
Agreed for the most part, except for one thing.
If you are holding left, then press and hold right, the game should keep reading that as left. Yes
Once you let go of left, but keep holding right, the game should now read that as right. NO.
-- I believe the game should drop that right input entirely. The only way to get a right input is to do it without holding left. So you would have to let go of left, then press right in order to get that input to start registering. That should prevent that 'negative edge' trick you described, and would behave closer to a regular joystick or dpad, where SOCD is impossible.
That would make it the most fair, in that there's no possible tricks, but as someone playing HB (and keyboard) it's so insanely easy to press two buttons at once when doing a back -> forward motion even when not trying to that it would just make it super frustrating to play normally. Something like trying to do a 6246 motion fast would make me quit lmao.
This change is a step in the right direction I think. To undermine hitbox innate brokeness, you need to take away it's ability to input neutral.
As developers implement software SOCD cleaning, I think further experimentation will take place and allow for better balancing in the future, which is way I think this capcom push is ultimately going to be a good thing.
@@NineConsonants It would be most fair to not allow Hitbox at all.
Last button priority is a weird way to describe that. Someone might think last= most recent instead of least recent.
Chun Li's antiair in SF6 is down, down, that means that you are forced to stand when you release the first down. But now, you just can hold down the entire time and press up (neutral) and kick. It's the same because you stand when you press up, but I think it could be easier/faster with the new rule.
No you can't, I checked it with no SOCD controller and moraly dubious version of SF6 beta. Down down input requires two distinct instances of down. So first of all it has to be neutral down, you can't do down back twice. Second because it requires two distinct down inputs, you can't hold down press up for neutral and release up to get down again for a second down, even with negative edge turned on. You can hold down, press up twice and this will give you two distinct down inputs, but its not really faster than regular down down input. It is easier to do if you crouch, but again, can't do it from downblock. If you ever tried lever less it like socd dashing, just turned 90 degrees. You can dash forward by holding forward, and pressing back twice, but no one really argues that it's unfair.
Man, this is so confusing. I saw this video and I thought it would work for sure ruclips.net/user/shorts6Tu19VZCoMA?feature=share
The instant DP works, right? The one with the jump. Chun's AA doesn't bother me because I was doing it pretty fast with double tapping but the other one is huge.
@@Harlec Yeah, 639 DPs work, but saying that it's unfair is disingenuous considering that there are alternative shortcuts that use b + f = n SOCD. 639 is the fastest shortcut you can do, but it's barely faster than current alternatives.
@@Sasiskin7823 to me is a matter of execution. I'm kind of new to hitbox (like 4 months) and from the right side I'm having a lot of problems. I wasn't using that shortcut on purpose because I knew it wasn't allowed in 6 and I didn't want to get used it, but since now is back, I'm going to start using it right now.
@@Harlec Yeah I hear you, sometimes shortcuts are just more comfortable, like doing f.mp hold forawd, tap back twice for a drive rush.
One thing to comment on is that capcom just wants the ability to control this in their software. Now that they have the sophistication as developers to implement socd inside the game it feels obvious to me that pairing input interpretation with the people who design the game mechanics seems like the obvious best choice to me. I really have no opinion on whether u + d = u or neutral and I feel for the competitors with the timing, but overall I have to say I'm happy that the SOCD interpretation is moving away from the hardware designers. In my perfect world we all just use identical input devices I don't really care which one. It just feels like whether its a hitbox or an antagonist board this is just a situation where its impossible to make everyone happy.
Hmm ok, if they are stopping up + down which used to = up, should now = neutral in street fighter 6, so hitboxes aren't really banned, it's just that movement of up and down (when held together.) will now be registered/seen to the game as neutral. Thanks Brian, cause I have seen other video's and they were saying that leverless controllers are banned and only DS controllers were allowed.
I believe the concern is that many leverless controllers currently do SOCD on their own, so games won't be able to tell the player is pressing Up+Down, it just sees Up. Leverless controllers needs a patch or some sort of switch that let's it disable its internal SOCD and let the game's software handle it.
@@Appletank8 Really? Ok, lets wait till the game is released and see capcom says about lever-less controllers.
I wonder if the sf6 socd software cleaning will prevent shortcuts. They might adjust the input interpreter to treat multiple direction inputs differently. Having it in the software side gives them more control so that even if technically the motion should work, they might make the motion not work with simultaneous inputs.
I fully agree that software level socd is the future, but wouldn't it be possible to resolve some issues by adding additional restrictions on the software side?
eg: couldn't flash kick just require a minimum of 1 frame of neutral in software? Which would make the shortcut impossible
It is literally a switch statement or an if else chain inside of a loop. I could teach you how to do it within a hour.
infact here is how to do it the easiest way I could think without knowing how the game engine works. Literally repeat this for all 4 directions or do it in a switch statement. unless I'm missing something that makes this basic check fail.
for the benefit of everyone everything after "//" isnt seen by the code.
while (true)
{
If (up = true)
{ if (down = true)
{DO NOTHING} //code just does nothing DO NOTHIN is filler for literally blank brackets.
else
{jump} // jump would call a function or an object function to do then make a character jump.
}
}
this can be done across the board (like how skullgirls does it) or character to character if you really want to. Like I said I could train you how to do this in around an hour max.
Very glad it's not banned, because this is the SAME thing that happened to pad players. Yet people simply adapted and accepted that all controllers have their own advantages.
Stay underdawg!!! love you bro
Pad is just so widespread, because it comes with consoles and it’s used with everything on them too. You remove the ability to use a controller, 95%+ of the player population uses and there’s gonna be massive pushback, so people just learned to deal with it.
using brain age DS music fits so well in the video, it actually makes me digest the mass amount of info easier probably cuz I have instinctively turn on BRAIN CONCENTRATION MODE whenever I hear that music
Hey Brian does this ruleset mean the ANTAGONIST button for stick players is also banned? I know Kizze, furby and a few other players use them
Trivia: In Ninja Gaiden 1 on the NES pressing left and right simultaneously made Ryu move right with normal speed (and slide), even if he was in the middle of a leftward jump. This allowed to climb walls.
I think the reason Capcom did this was to neuter a new fight stick mod called The Antagonist. It lets you add a macro button which, when pressed, enters a directional input that is opposite to whatever direction you are inputting from your stick. Holding back to charge a sonic boom? Well just press the antagonist button then punch to immediately shoot out a sonic boom. All with little to no forward movement. Likewise, do the same thing for a moon kick using the appropriate buttons. This mod is meant to add hit box like functionality to levered sticks.
one of the cleanest content creators. Thanks Brian
Along with SOCD cleaning, the game can do software-simulated stick transitions. If the hardware is sending "pure" input information, then they can equalize the controller advantages/disadvantages in software, and they probably want the arcade stick to be the canonical controller. This may be what they're thinking, but I think it will be a disaster of its own.
What a great and well explained video. Good job dude!
Since hardware SOCD is still needed for supporting older games I feel like their firmware should include an option to toggle hardware SOCD cleaning for newer games and let the software handle that. Sure up+down=neutral might be even worse but at least that change can then be reverted on software level via patching, I don't think that is something that should be handled on hardware level nowadays.
That’s what I’m curious about, what about people who play older games? What does SOCD do in those games? Probably varies huh
@@DoctorDarlingTTV Wasn't SOCD added to Hitbox and the like because older games didn't have SOCD at all?
I get the feeling Capcom putting a 2 Mil Prize Pool set the stakes too high for themselves and the community which led to controversies like this in the interest of keeping a level playing field...
Ideally hitbox should allow you to tweak your device's internal settings to set your SOCD cleaning (change DU from U to N on a whim)
i really don't get why hitboxes made up + down = up in the first place, neutral just makes so much more sense even when you don't consider balance implications. Left + right is neutral too why they gotta make it inconsistent like that
Exactly.
So my guess is.. they went with d+u=u because of charge characters. I only play sf titles (and massively casually) but I don't think charge up is a popular input... It's jump.
Thus... They implement d+u=u so you can charge down and press up to jump.
This bypasses the neutral horizon which is one of the key ideas behind having buttons for directions.
Interesting change from Capcom. From the developer perspective it makes sense that the software should decide what to do with the inputs.
From the leverless user perspective it's a bit annoying as there will probably be a firmware update but that's about it
The issue here is that of charge character over all. They were designed as an execution challenge assuming lever controls. Now that we have moved over keys that execution challenge has been heavily compromised and they just provide easier inputs cause of it. The new control scheme is clashing with the outdated design. Imo the only way to solve the problem is to either make charge characters be low risk low reward types of things forcing them to win neutral more often to win while input characters get rewarded having to win less or you just get rid of charge as a concept altogether.
I view the rules change as a liability issue for Capcom. How can you as a Tournament Organizer allow controllers that fundamentally work in different ways?
They clearly want all controller inputs/methods to work in the same fashion as a Dualshock4/DualSense controller at a hardware level.
What you do beyond that starting point is up to the player. But for Capcom, all controllers must function the same way at a hardware level.
I’d personally like them to revise the rule to allow L+R=Nothing. L+R should output to L+R like the ps4 pad.
What you're proposing is basically removing hardware side SOCD from leverless, which should be the case for any controller imo.
@@MansMan42069 lol its how it used to be before they forced us to use socd
It's an interesting conversation. Been following this since you made your first video touching on it.
My math background couldn't help but see this concern mathematically:
4 (Left) + 6 (Right) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 4 and 6 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5
8 (Up) + 2 (Down) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 8 and 2 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5
I'm not for or against either method of SOCD (Up+Down=Up or Neutral), just thought it was interesting how my brain saw it mathematically
Coming from the perspective of a keyboard player, SOCD being handled on a software level is something that needed to happen eventually. It is pretty much impossible to find a keyboard to console converter that can handle SOCD since they're all made for FPS games and very few of them exist in the first place (especially if you don't live in NA) so any ruleset that forces SOCD to be handled on the hardware-side pretty much bans keyboard or any other controller not made specifically for the FGC (Which is also a huge accessability issue for all non-pad players that can't afford to/don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a proper stick/leverless controller.)
Of course while it's valid to disagree with the new standard (I don't personally care either way) it is very understandable to me that it is a rule that you can no longer handle SOCD on hardware level at all, since it is modifying your inputs like a macro (though of course infinitely less harmful, but still.) While I agree with the sentiment that the already existing community standard should have been used, I think ultimately the shift from hardware SOCD to software SOCD is incredibly important.
I am an outsider, and it's interesting to see that many of the comments agree with my initial opinion that it should be done by the game developer and not the controller developer. By masking the inputs of the player, it is harder for the game developer to accurately make adjustments to these discrepancies that arise due to SOCD. This change allows for a more fair playing field long down the road, despite possibly having immediate consequences.
All this only applies to CPT level tournaments which lets be honest, 99% of players don't even try to attend. The capcops are not checking your SOCD hardware settings every time you jump on your silver ranked Cammy for a few games. People saying that hitboxes are now a $300 coaster are out of touch.
GamerBro 1: "Bro you use SOCD cleaning?"
GamerBro 2: "Nah, I'm 100% natural, been training since I was 14 years old"
I caught James Chen's breakdown on stream awhile back, so this isn't new to me, but it's great to see this covered thouroughly and succinctly for those new to the hB drama.
I'm glad to see leverless controller manufacturers rolling out firmware updates for their customers.
Time will tell if this ruling really does lead to a definitive overall advantage for shotos; I anticipate changes coming on the software & input shortcut side of things. This approach does seem more intuitive, if nothing else.
If they reverse the ruling, there will be another wave of hB drama. 😅
Super well put forth info. I didn't understand the complexities until I saw this
These changes feel like they're attempting to help stick, but honestly how many new players are even using stick? I know more personally that play on keyboard than stick. New players are playing pad, and if they want a fighting controller they get a hitbox.
If Capcom is absolutely certain this change will make the game more balanced I would understand, but it feels more like they want to bring stick up while annoying consumers. They aren't even solving the problem of simultaneous inputs. Feels like a pointless change for today
Wow, this made so much sense and I never knew the benefits of hitbox before. Well explained
Isn't the main goal of this change to just standardize equipment? Having a pad up+down give something different than a hitbox up+down is a problem in itself, and as you all state the end result of the direction combo doesnt matter; either way the input becomes abusable, so might as well make it consistent across all controllers
But, the up priority had already been standard for fighting games.
@@evilded2 did you read my comment before replying to it or was more than 5 words too long for you
Daigo didnt save Capcom a spot under the cherry blossoms, so they're trying to take away the Ume Flash Kick.
Daigo: そうか。研究室へ。
@@jstim06 jesus christ please tell me your being ironic
@@shanks4uCapcom. HitBox. Guile. Just a thought. But as Knuckles says:
"I dunno..."
Im so glad brian F made this clear case to ban all leverless
I don't see a problem with this. It is about standardizing all controllers, not making something more or less OP.
4:45 i agree, that bicep vein goes crazy👌
socd cleaning doesn't solve the problem and i wonder how long it is going to take the fgc to realize that.
This was an awesome video that puts all the chaos into perspective. I'm almost certain though they aren't full on banning leverless due to advertisement/sponsorship reasons. (I say this as someone who legit just bought a snackbox recently)
Capcom has been on a weird chain of decisions over the last couple years. Not just with fighting games but all their I.P.s. I'm excited to play 6, however if they wish to govern what hardware I use to play it: I'll just play one of the plethora of other amazing games the FGC will be getting this year/already has. I am not shackled to them like a High-Level Player and/or Content Creator would be. Thanks for this amazing and detailed coverage of the situation.
My main opinion on this is that SOCD in older games, yes, should be hardware controlled as the software has no SOCD cleaning, but in modern games where developers are aware of how to clean SOCD, should be entirely based on the software, the hardware should not be controlling how the game is played, that's the job of the software. And as well as this, if the devs find that a certain SOCD cleaning is too strong, they can change it on the fly. Yes, different games would have different SOCD cleaning, but that is what would work for the game. I will always stand by the point, not just in the FGC, that the software should always control how the game is played, not the hardware.
The fact cheatbox can release a Firmware patch to make any SOCD output they want points to the fact that what they're outputting to the game is at the software level for Hitbox. Allowing you to change it would effectively make U+D = whatever they want it to be. It's a straight up macro. Why not an option for U+D = pretzel motion? In all cases, what you are outputting to the game is simulated, and not reality. The ability of SOCD creates all sorts of strategies that the developers didn't balance the game around because fighting games have always been developed with levered movement in mind.
We can argue until the cows come home, but until developers actually analyze the impact leverless controllers have and make rules/corrections to it IN GAME (Like perhaps adding a human-like delay to all SOCD, first/last wins priority, etc.) and the controllers actually output what is input (U+D and not whatever you program it to be), cheaters are gonna stay cheating by simulating nonexistent inputs.
Awesome coverage. ❤❤❤
Could this be solved by requiring an actual neutral input in special moves?
This gets to the nub of it. I see a hitbox as the FGC equivalent of an athlete augmenting his performance with drugs or maybe cybernetic implants. Sure, it improves the performance, but that's not the point. It goes against the essential spirit of the game.
Brian you're my favorite streamer and I don't want to see you banned! I'm willing to sacrifice my tournament career and take the Hitbox off your hands. Nearly free of charge, you only have to pay the shipping!
In beta 2 modern control Ryu can do shinkuu hadoken by pressing two buttons and shin shoryu by pressing down+ two buttons.
I also found out that many players expect and rely on seeing you buffer your supers. Either by standing and crouching at regular intervals, or by whiffing special cancelable normals.
The modern control input doesn't have a tell. And it's so fast and reliable that it allowed a player of moderate skill like me to actually whiff punish with Shin Shoryu.
And that's Ryu. If Gief and Lily do have 360° and 720° motions then modern controls will make any hitbox shortcut look slow af.
Oh, and afaik, Capcom will allow MC in tournaments.
I’m not a software engineer so I’m not sure if I’m missing something but why doesn’t Capcom just make it to were if it receives socd it registers all inputs as neutral so that you can’t get forward or up. If you are holding down and back then press up all three directions now equal neutral. Basically if you press more than 2 directions at the same time you will just get neutral. That solves all the problems
The problem is that a hitbox isn't sending socd inputs, it only sends up, so the software has no way to know what was pressed. What they want is esentially for the Hitbox to send all the inputs, and not modify them at the hardware level.
If Capcom is worried about a Flash Kick that doesn't go through neutral, they could just force the animation to always go through neutral, regardless of what the controller sends. It seems so weird to target the controller. All of the other balancing they do is at the frame data level. Add a frame here, subtract a frame there. If the controller sends down, up it would be trivial for the game to insert a neutral into the input stream.
I remember watching you play sf4 like 8-9-10 years ago, I started playing on keyboard which is basically what a hitbox is and only transitioned to stick because you couldn't bring a keyboard to a tournament and play on because they were all on xbox or whatever it was, good times
yeah i prefer keyboard due to how my hands work (i uses to be a guitar playing who loved tapping), so I'd prefer hitbox over arcade controller any day lol
I think Capcom might keep this ruling and manually patch out the other exploits it brought back at the software level, possibly even go as far as having different SOCD cleaning per character in Street Fighter 6.
I think on the software side with new games, software side SOCD control per-game will allow special-case behaviors in-game per character.
The "levelling the playing field" argument is such a crock of shit imo.
Back in the SF4 days (and prior), when the debate on which controller to use was mostly limited to pad vs stick, peeps didn't seem very interested in "levelling the playing field" between those two choices then; in fact, a lot of people seemed pretty eager to blather on and on and on about how pad was vastly inferior and you were limiting yourself by not learning stick. Now that traditional arcade sticks are the "inferior" (not really) option though, it's apparently incredibly important that we make sure this one specific input style is not superseded by new technology that's more comfortable for some competitors.
Nevermind that the entire point of different input devices is that they all have different strengths and weaknesses. No, screw any sort of advancement in technology, it's apparently critical that the developers get involved and ensure that a specific piece hardware is not allowed to have advantages over stick.
All that said, having the software handle SOCD cleaning makes plenty of sense, trying to get to that point as their goal is fine. I just hate such a lame-ass argument being trotted out.
I swear it just comes down to most FG vets are on stick and most of those also have access to a keyboard and a pad. They've been able to compare the experiences of playing on each input device and concluded that they are inherently not far apart, or that they vastly prefer the feel of one over the other, deeming the others inferior. Most don't have access to a hitbox style controller due to their rarity and price throughout the years, so they only have the tech videos and the knowledge that a few top players use them to refer to, and with that limited information conclude that the controller is "broken".
There are probably more top pad than leverless players atm, and the KoF scene is almost entirely on stick still. It's almost entirely a non-issue outside of niche exploits.
consider myself an outsider to the fgc so I don’t fully get the impact these controllers have (also played DbfZ on a keyboard for a bit cause my controller was too far but It felt fine to me after a bit) but I’m genuinely amazed to see such discourse over someone allowing you to hold 2 directions, meanwhile most fps games have yet to even bother discussing controller aim assist vs mnk and in certain cases just let one side take over without even bothering to address it. I have no input on this current topic but I am glad that the fgc are passionate enough about their games and fair competition that it’s actively being looked at. You all have my respect
The thing is, increased precision in input means that detection has to become less lenient. This isn't really a problem per se, but it does mean that an expensive peripheral will just be better than the stock option (in most cases). You can't ban controller and keyboard because they are the stock option and predate these games and thus aren't designed to circumvent intended inputs. Hitbox is clearly intended to circumvent intended input. I think capcom's decision is correct. Just set all opposing cardinals to neutral. They may need to also limit direction input reading to 2 at a time. Just set 3 directions to neutral.
thing is, implementing SOCD rules on the software level is extremely simple, so the fact that it took this many years for a major dev to address the issue is mindboggling. i understand why capcom went this route, as it makes perfect sense. having hardware use custom SOCD rules, like U+D=U on hitbox creates this sort of gray area where you're not sure what should be legal in terms of controller use. let the game decide what to do, as that's more fair.
If I'm understanding this right... Over the years, developers of Street Fighter have acknowledged that a lever stick is not the most accurate control method, so they've added shortcuts into the software for certain motions. The problem becomes that when you have a precise control method, suddenly those shortcuts can be abused. The solution is to then change the way those precise control methods work, be they an all-buttons solution or a controller, so they can't abuse those shortcuts? It feels like being beholden to an archaic control method, a lever, is just bad for everyone.
What a video man! Perfectly clear. Thank you for all this hard work.
I think I have a simple solution. If you're holding D, U should not register. So while holding D, pressing U will not cause neutral or any other direction change; the game will continue registering D. U inputs are simply dropped by the software unless D is let go. Same behaviour for L and R.
I believe this will break all the leverless exclusive shortcuts described in the video, which I think is what Capcom intended to do.
Of course this can only work if the software handles SOCD, so the rule is necessary.
I grew up on standard console controllers, but even new simultaneous inputs aside, I've been loving keyboards for just how fast you can press them by keeping a finger on each.
Might wanna change WASD to something like WAXD with the thumb on X, very weird to get used to, but it's very quick and perfectly precise once you do. I play SSX 3 on a normal PS5 controller, you use the D-pad to flip and spin, and just sometimes, it makes me spin/flip in a direction that should not be possible to press with where my thumb is, for example, I don't trust these things. Might just be a bit of dust under there, or what have you, but I keep it pretty clean and it's been this way, so that doesn't really excuse it.
I wish there was just some perfect kind of modular controller that everyone embraced, with the ability to have it in the left hand only, and a multi-button mouse in the right.
On the note of SSX 3, I play Gamecube cause emulation is smoothest there and Xbox's controls SUCK, dumb combinations baked into the inputs even if I could reassign.
The thing is... The GC has one less button, and thus one less trick modifier. Z? I guess this one is at least on kinda the correct axis.
As you said, seems like the old standard is outdated. Makes sense to update it.
but they didn't update it they reverted back to what up + down = up is fixing.
I grew up on arcade sticks and havent been in the fighting game scene for maybe over 15 years. It's so interesting to see what has changed and how this impacts the gaming.
Man, being a pad player can be pretty chill at times.
Honestly it's an interesting change, I think SOCD should be handled by the games and not by the pad, the change capcom made pretty much forces SOCD to be the same across the board, no matter what input method you are using
I think the main idea is that hardware is not making input decisions (beyond raw presses) when one type of input device allows inputs that others do not. I don't think it is specifically about down/up, but that is the HitBox specific impact.
I feel like this is worth mentioning because it gets brought up a lot but MVC3 is hardly the first game to answer the question of how SOCD should be handled, even for Capcom, in fact them fixing it very quickly makes it more of an oversight in rushing the game out than not knowing what to do with leverless controllers (or pads). The larger problem here is just Hitbox per usual clinging to their powercreep, its unsurprising given how much of their marketing is aggressively based on OS advantages and so on that they want to keep things they are. The "larger community" they name I don't really see? Most leverless and keyboard players I know dislike the larger Hitbox brand for this stuff in particular. The fact that they want the final say on SOCD, regardless of what the solution is, is just dumb. All of this would be solved immediately if SOCD cleaners were banned altogether btw. They are literally not needed unless you play an ancient game on like a snes or smth and lets be real most would do so on an emulator anyway.
As a game series comes from arcade period, Capcom doesn't want the traditional control to be eliminated. That's why the they cancel 639 DP and 2626 CA(has to be a ↘ inbetween in SF6). But now this new rule end up 636 DP return, and 22 (↓↓) command easier.
I have no idea why anyone would say that leverless controllers are more difficult/more taxing to use than pad/stick.
I think you just don't fully consider that on hitbox you are still in the process of re-learning/mastering motion inputs, which in comparison feel more taxing than doing them on a stick you are already a master of, but if you have anywhere near the same amount of experience on both controllers then leverless ones are just so immensely easier and less taxing. I'm not talking about just a "higher skill cieling potential" but about doing the same shit of any kind being MUCH easier on leverless.
I'm also not talking about just personal experience, I've tried to introduce So many of my friends to fighting games, and the results have Always been the same: they struggled very heavily to do motion inputs (especially super inputs) on a pad, while they very quickly adapted to do them on a keyboard. Even with my non newbie friends with hundreds of hours behind them, there is such a noticable difference of frequency of dropped inputs when we play on pad vs when we play on keyboard.
Lever controllers objectively take more precision and fine motor skills to use on all skill levels, they objectively require more movement/travel time, they are objectively more difficult and this shouldn't be a matter of perspective.
As much as I love playing on keyboard every now and then, I legitimately think leverless controllers shouldn't be allowed in competitive play at all because if they remain allowed then they will completely overtake the competitive scene (as they are already in the process of doing that wich more and more pros making the switch). Even without the SOCD exploits, leverless controllers offer a direct, objective adventage on all skill levels and not just a "potentially higher skill cieling". They aren't "more precise version of the same input methods", they are just different input methods that just make it so you have less physical moves you have to do thus reduce the moments where you can fuck up inputs by skipping them.
Fighting game motion inputs were meant to be done with mimicing them with physical motions, this is not just a balance design but a "fantasy" part of fighting games too, and leverless controllers WILL kill physical motions eventually in high level play if they are allowed to stay, there is no question about that.
Highly disagree that leverless is better for every motion. 360's/720's from any position and half circles (depending on context/previous input position) are far easier/more intuitive on lever. I think hitbox is better for MOST applications, but not all.
@@Brian_F motion inputs are obviously more intuitive on a lever because it's more obvious what you have to do, but doing motions means using fine motor skills which is harder for humans to develop than just having to learn order and timing of button presses that just happen to be initially less intuitive.
I played a lot of KoF games with my friends on pad and keyboard too, games with much less input leniency, requiring perfect half circles and the results have been Always the same. It's much harder to do perfect half circle motion during a combo or during quick reaction vs having to tap 3 buttons. The latter is much faster and more reliant with a very noticable difference. Sure, for a total newcomer it might be more intuitive to do the motion than to learn an unusual timing of overlapping button presses And releases, but even with just a moderate amount of practice leverless will quickly outperform lever controllers because the actual actions you have to do on leverless are just objectively much simpler.
720s are very rare (and are also designed in a way where they give you time to input them, instead of you having to do them as fast as you can) and leverless controllers requiring unusually lot of practrice for this particular input doesn't balance out the fact that it's just much faster at everything you actually constantly have to do as fast as you can. For a 360, with pressing 4 buttons you can still outperform actual physical circle motions, even if circle motions remain easier to do on a stick (not even on a pad) for a longer amount of time. But regardless, if lever controllers had an adventage with this move, this is just way too little.