Exploring the Problem of White Feminism with
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
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I've actually long held the hypothesis that the whole Matrix feeling is where the typical, cringy SJW types come from. They pop out they bubbles in the burbs and hit a campus to find out how messed up the world actually is and it causes their head to explode lol And since they ain't all that well read yet they're approaching it from a more superficial, liberal, and sometimes hysterical position and/or largely going on feelings and what they're being told they should do by people all to happy to take advantage of em. Many will eventually be better educated and spend time around people that know better than them and can help guide em. But I think that initial shock is what throws a lotta people through a loop where a lotta us have been living it and/or seeing it out whole lives and/or are better versed in the thought that helps make sense of it all and how to overcome 🏴
Damn... thats a pretty accurate breakdown if I ever read one. 💯
Shouldn’t we give grace to those who eventually walk into the light and stay? I think it’s hard enough for people to change worldviews. It probably is a response in part of a symptom, people get sick from Chemotherapy, I hope that’s not too bad of an analogy.
This is accurate- that shock part of a certain idealism that in part can exist only due to privilege is legit…and it seems that then a burnout occurs trying to ‘fix’ things and then many tire and go on into the mundanity of life and kind of move on as ‘oh well that’s the world’. Some stay and try to become true allies.
Wow this is a good comment
@@LawrenceIsbell what does grace look like to you?
I dated a white girl a few years ago and someone every once in a while would come up to her and ask if she was OK or needed help. Ofc the stares were and still are endless anytime I'm visibly with a non black person
nah thats fucked
wow, thats fucked??? I'm so sorry to hear you've had to deal with that. i guess im lucky no one's ever been whack at my black partner and I while we're together in public, so far. I'd be so angry if someone asked me that, in front of him, no less. Wtf.
What a sad reality we live in, but I've learned too much to be surprised by it.
I hope you made some nice memories with her, even if it didn't work out long term.
My cousin has that same shot happen to him and his wife in the deep south. Sometimes it's that genuine concern which is still bad but sometimes it's said to make a point to him and that's worse. Many times it's done specifically to provoke him into getting mad in the hopes that they can call the good ole boy cops.
What city/state are you in? I've been with white girls in multiple areas in the northeast and don't remember getting any looks or weird questions.
Discovering that you're part of the problem isn't the most difficult part. The difficult part is understanding that no matter what you personally say, do, or believe you will always be part of the problem specifically because of how the system is built. That's hard on the ego, but it's the reality of the system of racism. Do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because you can tell yourself or others that your role in the problem is no longer relevant. It won't be over until the whole damn thing is past and irrelevant.
If a person will always be something no matter what they say or do, then there's no point in harping on that, is there? I realize these concepts are popular in academia & online, but IRL it's a waste of time & resources to focus on what folks can't change. If we did that in juvenile justice or mental healthcare systems, we'd have even worse outcomes. We teach them the opposite of the defeatist identitarian narrative that says they’ll never rise above their biology bc society is against them. We teach them empowerment, to identify what's within their spheres of action & influence, & how to work from there to build the best possible life. Helping individuals build their best possible lives is the fastest way to help society as a whole.
Ruminating on how all systems are corrupt & must be overthrown might be fun in college, make you feel smart online & get Twtr likes, but in the real world holding onto these concepts longterm tends to damage your mental health & relationships & rob you of your potential. So what if you're partially right? Perhaps the biggest aspect of maturity is accepting that life is full of choices between being right but harming yourself & others or being cooperative & happy.
FWIW I'm sure we share similar goals. I'm just trying to give you another way to think about achieving them
@@scarletsletter4466 This is getting to the heart of a deeper issue, the assumption that racism is an individual failing that one either has or doesn't have. At no point did I say that white people are predestined biologically or otherwise to perpetuate racism through their aggregate behavior. The only way that they can do it is to collectively deny that the issue is deeper than the concious decisions of individuals, which unfortunately many people do. What I am saying is that the concept of race itself exists only to serve white supremacy, and as long as it continues in some places, this is what ot will continue to do in those places. Racism is beyond bad behavior, it is an intrinsic part of many of our social and economic systems. Most people already believe that racism is bad and they shouldn't do racist things, but the effects of racism persist. Individual bigotry is only the most obvious symptom of racism, not all of what it is at every level. The problem and solution are deeper than simply choosing not to engage in bad behavior. We must make it known that race is a very real and very oppressive social construct that we can move past, because it didn't even exist until the literal modern era.
@@epis8613 I'm struggling to understand how someone can be a part of the problem no matter what they do. Surely something can be done. Would you mind elaborating a bit further?
@@treacherousjslither6920 Imagine in feudalism a nobleman understands the inherent issues of feudalism and opposes it. Because feudalism exists and for as long as it exists, they will benefit from feudalism no matter what they say, do, or believe and will continue to be a part of the issue until feudalism itself is abolished. It's not a perfect analogy though since you can in some circumstances renounce nobility but it's not possible to renounce being white. The only solution to no longer be part of the problem is to end the system of racism altogether. Until then there is nothing we can do about benefitting from existing structures at the expense of others. This makes me supremely uncomfortable as I'm sure it would anyone with a soul, but you have to acknowledge the whiole issue before you can deconstruct it. Denial that you benefit from racism at the expense of others no matter what until racism ends is no solution.
Edit: In my example even though the nobleman can't escape being part of the problem, they still have some unique power which could also allow them to contribute to the solution. If I didn't think there was any way I could help or contribute I wouldn't spend my time like this.
@@epis8613 Hrmm interesting analogy. Even if we got rid of race people will still differentiate themselves from others along national, religious, or cultural lines which can be just as problematic.
Definitely feel the matrix example really hard as a goober that got sucked into the alt right pipeline as a young teen and then got ripped out once I realized “holy shit, sjw cringe comps turned into psychotic vitriol that is turning me against my own sexuality and the races and gender expressions of my friends and family. That moment led into being a little cringe myself by just body slamming myself into leftism to try and distance myself from the problem, but finding your content has helped me significantly in really starting to process all of these internalized emotions and issues and I can’t thank you enough for that FD ❤
You're one of the lucky ones (and I mean that) by having close contact with queer people and poc. The ones that get stuck in the alt right pipeline stay there due to their environment and I'd reckon it's mostly online communities with a bunch of weirdos on them. Some evidence I can bring forth on this are some of the communities I know about and know about some individual people who have pretty much stayed reactionary and growingly conservative.
As a kid, Maya Angelou and Langston Hughes also helped me find a way out of the little racist suburban bubbles I grew up trapped within.
I remember reading Maya for the first time and being like wait... I'm allowed to like my body ? 😰😭
This conversation was very interesting to me because growing up in Germany "realizing you are part of the problem" is (for most Germans) quite early and very intense. Coming to an understanding of the huge shadow of white supremacy, and your own relation to it, on your own and at on older age is something that I can only imagine with difficulty
So they condition you to apologise for the Holocaust you had literally no part of?
@@christopherbrown5409 Ah see that is exactly what I have heard Neonazis and adjacent people saying since middle school.
You learn in the German school system quite detailed what lead to world war 2, what atrocities were committed and what checks were put in place afterwards. Education being one of these checks. The lesson is not to feel forever bad about yourself but to be vigilant. That something like this can happen again. People like you piping up with such bs takes are a prime example that many are blind to the lessons of the past and this vigilance is 100% necessary
@@Smile-ni9nc well, that explanation sounds much better, though I don't appreciate your morally self-righteous implication that I'm an unintelligent neo-Nazi
@@christopherbrown5409 do you know what white supremacy is?
The brainwashing starts early. Hate yourself....hate yourself....hate yourself
I'm a white girl but I was socialized around mostly POC (mostly African American and Hispanic folks). pretty much all my neighborhood friends and schoolmates were nonwhite. even then I remember getting weird comments from white adults about my friends. It's crazy how even Liberal or diverse areas have strange biases against this.
It will forever be odd to me as a white woman, whose family is full of drug addicts, gang members, that was nearly swallowed up by the same systems intended to profit off of black mens lives, to have a conversation about white feminism. I do not relate to going to college and having my world view exploded, i grew up knowing ronald reagan was the devil and being poor makes you die faster. I was trained from an early age not to talk to cops. What is difficult for me is communicating my actual life experience to people, and managing their expectation of who I am, how Im supposed to act. I have to do a lot more explaining myself to academics than I have to do with the people in my community. People i knew from when I was homeless dont ask for my credentials, or question who I am.
These systems dont actually care what you look like. People like me are not a rarity. White, attractive, bound to poverty and institutions. White people should be scared of the mess that is white supremacy because they cannot win at it. 2 and 3 generations ago I had fabulously wealthy grandparents. Since then, their kids have lost the money, dealt with mental health issues quite honestly caused by white supremacist values, and left nothing to their children except nihilistic malcontent. FD always says white people suffer under white supremacy, and that always hits me super hard because its been the story of my life. Foster care didnt treat me like a burden and a prisoner because it could see me and make that choice, the system does not have eyes to see with, it did that because people designed it to be destructive.
This. All of this, are we somehow siblings? because your experiences are so similar. No one realizes that the problems with society isn’t just racism, at its core, the powers at be just want to hurt people to secure what they have and to accumulate more.
Sure the argument could be made that ‘people do it to themselves’ but that only equates to ‘let’s prey on the weak minded privileged ones’
And don’t even bring up college to a poor white person; POC won’t understand, and affluent white people like to pretend you don’t exist.
Basically, ain’t nobody want nuthin’ to do with you.
I do gotta add, when I was homeless, I had to tell people around me, who are not white or female or able bodied, that my life is in fact easier for it. It helps to say that because it is honest, but its not hard from that point to go towards, yeah, well, every single one of us is stuck in poverty at least for now. I just could wear designer donation clothes and pretend to be affluent so I could go pee at the Marriot lmao. Its privilege but. . .. come on? We all deserve so much more than that
@@thekatvita you're likely right, we also jur need to claim responsibility when we have bad politics otherwise we're doomed to this
@@SqueeaakyB00ts I mean I'm sorry it offends you, but even still you have it way better than niggas. Step on a few of us then you'll climb out on top. Our struggles are no where similar. Like we're literally not considered people.
Comes off like you're trying to distance yourself from the shit when you still benefit from it
You still benefit from whiteness, black ppl are 5x more likely to experience your life simply from generational poverty
If one’s activism excludes anyone that is being marginalized, what is this activism good for? Intersectionality is the only way forward in my view.
Great video as always!❤
*If one’s activism excludes anyone.
Intersectionality is not when you exclude members of the existing power structure, it is when you force the existing power structure to be accountable to the marginalized.
I got my daughter a black baby doll for her second birthday and my grandmother began messaging me off the hook on social media about how I shouldn't be "going out of my way to make her confused" just to "make a point". I asked how in the world I was making her confused, and she said "because she's a white child, she won't be growing up to have a black baby". All generational differences aside, I refuse to believe my paternal grandmother is that dense to not understand how a white woman could have a black baby. Just... holy shit. Your story about gifting black books made me recall that- really hoping parents are past the point of my grandmother's ideology at this point.
Dysgenic reprobate
a white woman can have an interracial baby not a black baby. What type of baby would a black woman have with a white man? a black baby still? I am so confounded at the way americans think.!
I think the title of this really messes up the algorithm. One click and I went from a reasonable feed to having my Shorts recs become a solid row of right-wing clips complaining about feminists and gender
I've had something similar happen, although I'm guilty of more than just one glance at content that truly is made for conservative eyes only (I have always attempted to at least be informed about what both sides are saying since that used to be a good way if getting the whole story). I think this might be some over-correction Google and RUclips are trying to do the algorithm to provide more diversity to the recs we get. Again, not anything we asked them to do, but a classic example of censorship at work. That's what it ultimately boils down to, even if the evil people doing it are "on our side".
This sort of thing is exactly why the modern day book bannings and censorship are so dangerous. I come from an extremely exclusive, rural area and I was not exposed to anything outside my bubble growing up, other than what I could find online in the early 2000s. I knew I didn't believe in anything overtly racist, and I wanted to learn more about people, but had no resources and no idea how to go about doing that in a respectful way.
White people absolutely need full access to this information, and they need to be told why it's important in order to break through the misconceptions that get drilled into our heads by the ignorance in our environments.
Irrelevant af, but I need your nail regimen! Haha also I love when she said that her English teacher talked about race with everything. It's reassuring when a white person does it because when I do it, I get accused of talking about race too much as a POC.
Where the lie? People are like I talk about race like it's my identity!!! yaw the ones reminding me I'm black, trust me!!
White leftists especially are guilty of this shit. It's the one conversation they can't center themselves in therefore,us talking about it seems us isolated from these spaces unless you're one of those individuals who are desperate to impress white people then your input is valued
😂 are you asking for Maggie’s or FD’s nail regime? The goodness of the nails here was legit distracting
I live in the area she's talking about. And sadly it's exactly how she described it.
😔 yeeeeep
I was lucky enough to have non-white mentors from an early age and it helped tremendously with this, plus non-white art, music, lit and animation was a big part of my childhood and inspiration as a creator. For me, the bubble that popped was realizing that a large portion of my white friends (and two non-white ones admittedly) just...didn't have functional empathy. This was mostly an issue with the white friends tho. They were very performative, but didn't ever go out of their comfort zone or really...face reality. And their social life was very false and transactional. And that's not to mention how they took advantage of me and others. I realized I needed to get the hell away from them. Burned way to many bridges in that paranoia, and felt like I could trust no one. Had two major psychotic breaks over the next year or so.
But I mended every single bridge worth mending and have a group of very real friends who 'get it' now. And I 'get it' better than ever, though I still got a lot to learn about this stuff. Racial and general social politics was a big part of this awakening for me. So like, the journey was different, there wasn't one 'OH GOD I'm THIS PRIVALAGED EVERYTHING IS FAKE moment. But there were definitely 'wow how did I not understand this' moments, over and over. Definitely felt foolish, definitely questioned the validity of everything I thought I knew. That was waaay too extreme a reaction tho.
I think there's a temptation to 'disown' whiteness, or other privilege's, once you really gain an understanding of them. Even tho I'm 'marginalized' in a lot of other ways, White and Male are...well, a big deal in this society. When you come to grasp how much it really effected your life, I and many others feel an initial reflexive disgust. We want to distance ourselves from being white, from how we were raised, etc. But disowning such a fundamental aspect of you and how you're perceived is impossible. You're the way you are, and no reasonable person is really gonna hold that against you or assume you have no struggle. At least not among the people I've built friendships with. You don't have to know everything or be perfect, just be understanding and acknowledge that none of us can really walk a mile in someone else's shoes, skin, body, gender, etc. I just try to keep listening, keep learning, keep growing and use my privilege's to help dismantle these systems, without completely neglecting my own well-being as I have in the past.
I think for me intersectionality seemed like a natural 'obvious' thing even though I didn't always have the words for it. Because- Well I grew up in one of the most diverse parts of Saudi Arabia ith that bizarre thing of it being a segregated society and yet also without the kind of racial enclaves you get in the West. Sexism is written in the law and visible everywhere and you'd have to be really dumb or blinkered to miss the way it was unevenly applied along racial lines. It was such an extreme example that the white feminist idea of some kind of universal sisterhood (or women as a group being somehow completely alligned) just never took hold.
I think the learning curve for me has more been about learning to see how things function in the West. Because it is different. Still racist and sexist, but the signs, application, means etc are different. And it's a different kind of unpacking, a different kind of problem to realise you're part of.
My problem in the past was assuming black women were "winning" at patriarchy, at least inside the black community.
Growing up in the south, living and working with black folks, it always seemed like black women were so in charge, forward, self sufficient, matriarchs, etc.
I was always in awe of, and intimidated by, black women. They didn't really seem to need help at all.
It wasn't until I started learning more, that I realized that patriarchy, racism, and poverty effects black women the most.
It’s called dehumanization. Why wouldn’t we need help? Everyone needs help.
What happened was you didn’t see us as human. You just admitted it.
@@kmc1994 I know now that everyone needs help, and that is important to see everyone as the human they are without making assumptions about them.
@@EDPsJailWarden i don't think you're gonna avoid weird complexes by not talking to white people...
it's actually not that weird. there's lots of examples of "positive stereotypes" like:
Asians are really good in school
Native Americans are magical and in touch with nature
Italians are good cooks
or whatever else
@@EDPsJailWarden no argument there, i totally agree with you!
Black women get s**t on by everyone, they have to deal with racism and misogyny from men within their own race and then deal with racism from men and women of other races, and then misogyny/fetishization from men of other races. I'm white and have so much trauma from misogynistic sexual abuse and male aggression and violence that I have PTSD... I can't imagine what most black women go through. Like men think they can just r*pe and murder them and no one will care (it's kinda like that with native women as well). I hope they are able to heal from their trauma too because it ain't easy to function like this.
Gifting black books is amazing.
To be somewhat fair to BLM, 2020 was the year of Defeat Trump At All Costs, and from that framework I understand a lot of decisions people made, including myself, even if Biden is not an ideal candidate
I think of white feminism like this: imagine that you're at a gallery, standing right in front of an enormous, intricate painting. You are standing so close to it that you can see every little speck of colour and brush stroke - but only in one small section of the canvas that is immediately in front of you. You become so fixated on the aspects of the painting within your limited scope of vision that you do not notice the rest of the painting. Intersectionality is a process of stepping back and trying to view the painting as a much larger, interconnected whole, made up of many different sections. White feminism is myopic and often deeply individualistic - whereas intersectionality is structural and holistic. We may not be able to understand the painting all at once, but you can take a step back and appreciate that it is so much bigger and complex than what is immediately within your own field of vision.
There’s no such thing as intersectional feminism.
I wish I could have a conversation with you about my life as a "white" (yes, the quotes are intentional) semi-Jewish woman growing up in poverty *without* the benefit of being conventionally attractive, there are so many weird lenses to cast over all of our own experiences and I feel like mine isn't unique, but it's certainly not the norm either.
"Realizing you are part of the problem" didn't hit me half as hard as "realizing the problem was so much worse than anyone ever told you" -- IDK, maybe it's a self esteem thing? But finding out I was inadvertently and indirectly contributing to the problem was like "well, yeah, especially if I didn't understand the problem until now"
Love listening to these conversations. Thank you.
I didn't know Maggie was from Michigan until today. I'm also from Michigan and once, while driving through the area of Michigan where she lived, I was also pulled over by a cop while I was with my white gf and he totally asked her if she was okay...
(He also asked if she was carrying any of my guns or drugs...🙄)
Western Michigan is racist as crap
As a West Michigan native, I second this observation.
Was she though? Jk
As diverse as eastern michigan gets, unfortunately we also have huge problems with racism. Another big problem are whites that lived in poor areas with black people and only develop personal empathy for their specific black friends, but are disgusted by blm or black organization efforts in general.
@@josephjuncaj5784 Lol that's so insane smh
Steinham in part was able to be as effective as she was in some circles due to pretty privilege. But (white) pretty privilege is power borrowed from the patriarchy because the wielder holds some of the characteristics which are are considered worthy of reward under patriarchy. Even the ambition of the type exhibited in second wave feminism is the kind of ambition that the patriarchy (and late capitalism) has made acceptable. But then since you are still playing by their rules with only borrowed power they get to decide exactly where you draw the lines. The premise flawed from the beginning.
Where are the lines drawn?
@@treacherousjslither6920 The invisible (not so invisible line) is what is borrowed must be paid back. So those in that game, consciously or not, will start selling the propaganda of their benefactors. They might become an apologist for late stage capitalist ideals and start rhetoric that aims to disenfranchise others, even if those others, are basically exactly like them. They might start building their investment mountains out of skivy back dealings that go against what they are saying to their followers. Using any of the benefits packages from pretty privileges to being patriarchy favourite race horse for trying to hide itself, always gets paid back somehow. Or in old lingo, pay the devil his due.
@@Firegen1 Interesting. Can you give me any examples?
This is divisive trash. It’s why women will fail.
Okay, but bringing the 'black books' is such a great idea!!!
Yup...I was taking notes.
Idk what this means- but race ain’t got nothing to do with this.
Milwaukee is the reigning champion of segregation. Which was weird in HS because I was only like one of 5 white kids in my graduating class. So I thought growing up we were a very integrated city. I didn't realize till I was older that there were whole different parts of Milwaukee that were entirely white people and that my experience of not growing up around the whites was an outlier.
Biggest white woman hurdle is coming off anti-racist without being cringe 😅
Listening to and reading work from non white people did/does teach me about how I am part of the problem, and it also changes one’s perspective on everything. If one is white in this world one cannot see beyond it without listening to those on the outside of it.
Listening to non white people has showed me the real ramifications of sexism. I don’t know how to explain it but I couldn’t fully see sexism from the vantage point of being inside of whiteness.
I wasn’t understanding how I was blindly participating and upholding white supremacy, and I couldn’t see the full depths of how sexism had harmed me, and every woman living.
It has also allowed me to more fully see how men are harmed, including white men. It has completely adjusted how I look at the boys I grew up with in Alabama.
Being inside of whiteness is utterly blinding.
You can’t see out of it if only white peoples thoughts are going into your body and mind.
This entire thread has me recalling "how propoganda works" by Jason Stanley. He discussed "epistemological disadvantage" and how both sides of an unjust hierarchy produce disadvantage in trying to understand the world.
As the dominant group, your ideology isolates you from information that challenges the ideology. A major source being the dismissal of non dominant perspectives.
As the subjugated group your ideology may involve your perceived inferiority which will prevent you from understanding the reality of your own potential.
@@Pensnmusic Thank you for the reading suggestion.
How has whiteness blinded you to sexism? Care to elaborate?
@@treacherousjslither6920 It feels like I would need a book to elaborate. It isn’t that I was completely blind to it I just couldn’t see the full scope of it.
How do I put this…. There are privileges I have for being white that can make sexism appear not quite as dangerous as it really is, and make it not as dangerous for me.
For example I had a boss that would take me in his office and try and talk me into having an affair with him. I was able to say I would sue him if he didn’t stop. I suffered no further consequences from this. He just dropped it like it never happened. The woman I worked with that was a POC didn’t feel comfortable saying she would sue him. She had to deal with it longer than I did.
Sexism existed for both of us but not in the same way. Maybe I am wrong but it felt like white privilege allowed me to respond differently to him. That in turn allowed me to feel safer, not safe, but safer.
We both couldn’t afford to loose the job, but I felt I could speak back, and tell him to stop, and that I wouldn’t loose my job.
Also I was just use to sexism I simply expected it at every turn, but I also expected to be able to push back against it to a certain degree.
I don’t know if that makes since….
@@TheBookofBeasts Thanks for replying.
Seems like a matter of perspective. Another white woman could have been just as afraid to speak up as your poc coworker. Another poc woman could have done the same as you or just immediately quit the job. I have no idea really. If I had a woman boss who asked me to have an affair with her and I found her somewhat attractive I would probably go for it if I was single. But stuff like that doesn't usually happen to guys. It's just a fantasy for us. Male privilege I guess.
Would have liked to hear more of Maggie and some micro-examples of how she understood shortcomings of "white feminism"
Ditto
Im sorry if this is racist to you guys but when this lady said she didn't relate to literature till she found literature written by black people, does that not seem fishy? I don't find myself having a preference for race or culture when it comes to art, I like fresh and different perspectives and so i try vary my diet.
She didn't even give a reason as to why she preferred it or what she liked about the stuff. I feel like she is lying to FD to appease the man and get some points. I enjoy this guy alot and like listening to him but when you go this far left you can create this odd toxic fakeness that pops up in career politicians. Makes it hard to be a genuine honest person because people are so worried about saying the morally right thing as opposed to what they actually think.
Regardless though, interesting conversations as per usual, keep it up my boy.
I think she basically meant it was more contemporary American culture rather than studying ancient European culture.
yeah i'm not gonna say it was a lie but it's so corny 😂 also why do we have to slander emily dickinson
The play she was talking about at the end sounds really well written and aware! I also understand what it's like getting into a character and coming to understand what that character represents, how they are felt through you, and what you understand as the other. It's nice to hear Maggie's perspective!
Can't recommend it enough! "Trouble in Mind" for those who want to check it out
Two of my absolute favorite RUclips Creators. This was such a treasure to stumble upon.
I had a very similar experience to Maggie… I was exposed to different sorts of critical theory in HS debate in addition to reading Native Son by Richard Wright in lit class. All good expansions of my worldview before it was anywhere near fully cooked.
I am not white but I was raised by a white father and even though I was othered for being Asian I was brainwashed into ignoring that dissonance I felt from my white classmates. (I had to brainwash myself to not suffer. And undoing that took a lot of work.) I think part of my way of dealing with this discomfort was by throwing myself into feminism. But since I was raised by a white man, and surrounded by white peers my feminism was anything but intersectional. It was very much WHITE feminism. I think for a lot of white feminists that don't understand intersectionality their feminism comes from the dissonance of being othered in a society where if they were men they would not be othered. They don't understand intersectionality because their understanding of discrimination is still rooted in the false reality of white supremacy. They want what the WHITE MAN has. That is what I wanted. But once you start to put the pieces of the puzzle together and see the realities of discrimination and how it all intersects, it becomes impossible to go back. That change is fundamental but scary. Because if you start to do that work then it mean dismantling everything you know and understand about the world, and yourself. You have to confront the horrible things you've done to uphold white supremacy as a white feminist. I just think many people are not fucking ready to have that reckoning within themselves.
As to the question "What do you do once you have come to the realization, apologize, what?"
I have no real answer. I can't go back to apologize to every black person I have hurt because due to the nature of microagressions I literally have no clue who I hurt. But I do remember a lot of black friends who stopped being friends with me over the course of my schooling (though it must be said that those people are not a definitive list of everyone I said racist shit to... I was deep in the racism juice back then, thanks father). They stopped being friends with me for a reason, and I fucking deserved it. There is guilt there. I don't think should go back and reopen wounds that are 10+ years old just for my sense of closure. What can I do? Be better. When I became a manager I found myself managing many black women who were mothers at my job. I think if I had been the same person I was in high school I would have been a terrible manager. I don't know if I was a great manager, but I did always do my best to listen to my coworkers and help them with their needs whether medical or family. My goal as a manager was to always have enough people so that if someone needed to call out we could cover it no problem. I think having that freedom to handle their kids issues at school (one was suing the school for valid reason), have necessary medical procedures and check ups, and spend time with their family when something important happened, was the best thing I could do for my team. I did my best to not be a barrier to these women's lives. I can't change the world, I can't even change other people's minds, but I can avoid being a caltrop in someone's step.
As a black woman I want to say thank you for that and that's all we ask.
I love this video and am excited to see more of the conversation had!
One of the biggest break throughs I’ve had so far in my journey with systemic racism was realizing that this just was not about me. Sure, I have feelings about what I learn, I have thoughts and it’s important that I keep interacting and working on it but at no point in my journey with this was I going to be the main benefiter. My feelings about it, my deep thoughts, will never be as important as those of POC. It is not about me. I’m constantly having to push my ego aside to do the proper work of overcoming my internal bias. It doesn’t matter if it looks hopeless, it doesn’t matter if it’s uncomfortable, it doesn’t matter if I want to be praised for this work or be the special, different white person. This is not about me. If I’m going to do this right I have to be okay with doing this work just because I care about my fellow earthlings and it’s the right thing to do. It’s not about the reward in the end as there very well might not be one for me, that’s not the fucking point.
Two of my favs together, HELL YEAH! Amazing convo.
I am from Edwardsburg, MI - sounds like she is describing St Joe/Benton Harbor (and if so, very accurately)
😬 YEEEEOPPP
Oooooooh.
The thing about Abortion being an issue cause they. Wow. I never put that together.
I understand that it's important to showcase people who woke up to this late or used to hold rightwing beliefs, but holy shit I would love to just for once hear from someone who was raised with this stuff and didn't have an epiphany in college.
I first heard someone mention the concept of intersectional feminism while reading bell hooks' All About Love: New Visions years ago. Anything by her is great. RIP.
Is this the Maggie Fish that occasionally appears on the behind the bastards podcast?
100%
For the longest time I didnt consider myself a feminist because I was exposed very early on to forms of feminism that were very exclusive and centered the perspectives of cis women. I was always theoritically for the empowerment of women as a basic tenant but didnt consider myself much of a feminist because I couldn't really articulate a feminist perspective that I felt at home in. More recently I started reading Whipping Girl and now the label feminist (or more specifically trans feminist) is something I feel comfortable labeling myself.
Feel like clarifying after finishing this video. For the longest time I read critiques of white cis feminism and was well versed in what was wrong with feminism but understood less about what it should be instead and how I fit into it as a trans woman. Before that I always felt much more affinity for Black feminism because it felt like there was more room for trans people in those conversations. Not to mention the kind of dehumanization that women of color face has a lot of parallels to the dehumanization trans women in general face.
I know exactly what you mean. I've always felt an aversion to the dominant types (i.e. white, cis, allistic) of feminist discourse that I haven't felt with racial or queer discourse, and it wasn't until recently that I fully unpacked why. For one, I recently came out as non-binary and it made me realize that one of the big issues I have is that feminist discourse conflates patriarchal behavior and attitudes with "maleness", essentially implying that everyone who looks like me experiences male privilege and benefits from patriarchy in the same way, and essentially categorizes all of us as "men" even if we're not. I see some (again: white, cis, and allistic) feminists try to address that by venting about "AMABs", which is much worse considering how overtly TERFy it is.
The other issue is that as an autistic person, dominant forms of feminist discourse make zero consideration of autistic people and the complexities of how many of the traits that are considered red flags that a man/male-perceived person is "creepy" and potentially dangerous are also autistic traits, e.g. monotone tone of voice, flat affect, lack of eye contact, being seemingly quiet and reserved, etc. It also fails to make any examination of how certain traits commonly associated with toxic masculinity are also very common autistic/ADHD traits (e.g. a tendency to interrupt in conversations, infodumping, struggling to listen) and how to understand, distinguish, and respectively handle the two. I've actually experienced some of the worst ableism of my life at the hands of white cis allistic women in leftist spaces because of it.
@@aquatictrotsky1067wow, I did not know about any of that shit. I look at those sentiments and I do NOT think of feminism. It's aversion disguised as defense. It's angry exclusively!
Feminism in my eyes has always been a stand against harmful patriarchal standards. It's VERY complicated. One important thought of that is that I can't deny that men have it better in a lot of ways, but they suffer a lot too. Especially little boys that turn into sad, even dangerous, men.
I cannot think of a greater punishment than to be set up to inflict pain on others. I really feel bad for what patriarchal ideals do to men. Not by men. But to men. Even though they are kinda the same thing, I still feel the angry desire to defend men from the patriarchy.
Patriarchal historical standards are also steeped with white supremacy, ableism, and homophobia. So, thus with my attitude of feminism, I stand against those things as well. I could go on forever about it but I won't.
Feminism to me is a stand against an old, toxic, horrible, society that *happened* to be run by men. That was then perpetuated by everyone collectively.
I thought that's what feminism was. But white cis ablest "feminists" have the gall to use that name. I didn't realize how bad it was. Thank you everyone for letting me know
When I first realized I was being racist, I felt guilt. It was bad. I had flashbacks of things I had said, well meaning things, that were upsetting and wrong. I had those moments pop into my head like intrusive thoughts pretty frequently.
I wanted to fix it. Resolve that tension. I wanted to find the people I thought I could have hurt on Facebook and say that I was sorry, that I was trying to change. I didn't, thank goodness, because that would have been weird and in a big way it would have made their existence something that still serves my emotional needs.
I think I also have some trauma regarding saying things out of turn from my undiagnosed adhd (diagnosed at 24, I said a lot of dumb things because my filter was non existent). That may have influenced my experience with it. I would imagine that the guilt is fairly common. A strong desire to resolve the guilt.
In fact, it may be that the experience itself is traumatizing. Maybe that's why people reaching that point act so goofy. Trauma is the crack that can let extreme ideologies sink in, it can make you vulnerable. Maybe there are forces that swoop in to take advantage of that pain of realization, to ease the pain in a toxic way.
How do you cross that bridge? With radical empathy, probably.
I don't know how else to ease the high emotional burden that comes with that realization, but I'm open to suggestions.
This is very on the nose, and it is the accuracy of the bleakness of the situation at hand that is so very scary. I listen to another RUclips channel called The David Pakman Show, which is primarily political commentary. He seems to be one of a few progressive pundits that continue to heavily cover news about Trump, and in particular his ongoing rallies as they once again morph into another campaign to be President. This is a controversial decision since most news outlets and shows like his realize that all the media coverage he got in his 2016 campaign played a big part in his success in winning that election. As a result of that, many other outlets of news and media have openly refused to give him that help again. He is still a story and a threat to our democracy, so they can't ignore him completely. But no one wants to reoeat the mistake of 2016, risking a similar outcome happening in 2024.
I say all of this to make a point: David Pakman could face criticism for his break away from his colleagues on this topic. But I guarantee it would be misguided if he did get critiqued. They would accuse him of sensationalism and giving Trump the fuel for the fire that will burn you're country down! But that's not why he's doing it. If you watch his shoe you know he's a far cry from a sensationalist. He operates in almost every way that contradicts the behavior of sensationalist talking heads. Rather, he has expressed his concern about the large portion of this country that is still willing to vote for him, even after everything that he's done to prove his wrong he is for the job. It should not take hardly any effort at all to show people the truth behind his lies and how he manipulated them, using his "base" voters like tools without a care for a single one of them. But the phenomenon that is their undying decision to him, to the point that they are grasping desperately at fantasies to justify the weird shit he's said and done and promises to keep doing, this magic spell that he has cast over them is remarkable. And Mr. Pakman is always optimistic and level-headed and doesn't shy away from challenging fights. He is very adept at employing logic and rationality to prove his point and win debates. But even he has expressed his begrudged feelings of listless futility in trying to engage with these people who sadly seem to be brain washed. I never though id her him sound so defeated when I heard him wonder out loud, "if we will ever discover a way to break thru this curse set by Trump over these people, so that they will return to sanity." He has lamented recently that it was not too long ago when a luberal and a conservative could sit down together and have a heated exchange of ideas, and at the end if it not be at each others necks. Now, there is such tension that we immediately go into steel cage death match mode. We call each other names and the yelling begins almost immediately and when we yell at the other person that makes a constructive conversation impossible. Because then we aren't listening to each other. We only want to make the other side listen to us. There seems to be nowhere we as a society can turn to that offers any hope of a brighter future. And it's been bleak like this for too long. Hope fades, heroes fade, and this Grand Experiment of Truly Free Society will fade, with much more sinister forces just waiting to take its place.
@@Pensnmusic please contact me- there’s almost no difference between a Black woman and White women…but there’s a LOT of a difference between a Black woman and a Black man (and a White woman and a White man). They’re getting us. This is the final frontier. If we were smart, we’d work together and FAST! The internet is the big equalizer! Let’s GO!
Both brilliant speakers, but both missed what intersectional feminism is by miles. And it’s ironic because both managed to center themselves in a conversation about not centering themselves. Having a conversation about issues with white feminism with no black woman present? I think black men and white women really need to have these talks, but I think you both can be better. No disrespect.
I liked the conversation. Both speakers have plenty of experience speaking with black women on a myriad of topics including white feminism so I urge you to seek those avenues out.
@@matthewroberts6833 Thank you, there are many I speak to. Also I am a black woman. And the expertise from “speaking” to them was not evident here.
That was kinda the point. Having a different version of the conversation outside of it if that makes sense. The goal wasn't to talk about intersectional feminism but white feminism.
Like I thought it'd be weird to talk about black women when they're not present and that it'd be interesting to consider the topic from an outsider perspective and not attempt to speak for black women if that makes sense.
@@signifiedbsides1129 I think I get it. It just isn’t black women’s conversation. But if you’re discussing the “problem” with white feminism and it’s not, that’s a statement as well
Omg Maggie…s/o to me for subscribing
Love this collab. 💗💗
Love seeing two creators I enjoy talking together! All of my favorite teachers were English teachers 💕 all teachers are awesome but my English teachers always made me feel heard and seen!
The only white teacher I had who actively _made me_ feel like I was being heard and/or seen was an AP English teacher who eventually got locked up for pot.
A discussion about how white feminism excludes women of color without a woman of color included in the conversation? Ummmmm ok?
A discussion between a man and a woman about feminism? And not a Black woman and a White woman? Ummmm…NOT OKAY! This IS the problem!
I never knew much about the modern history of feminism growing up and in my early 20's, but I was always put off by anti-feminist rhetoric because of the basic school teachings about Susan B. Anthony and Suffrage. The fact women had to fight for the right to vote and didn't get it until *after* my own grandmother was 10 years old seemed plenty of justification that women had a right to be concerned about their place in society.
Maggie with the coffee mug as big as her face, power move
I like Maggie Mae fish
My mum being irish wore the trousers she done the cooking looked after us and done night work my dad also helped put when my mother was not able he would cook clean and look after us and home and work my mum is 83 now dad passed away
Maggie mae fish you are a cool dude
Just commenting for the Al Gore rhythm.
(Nice work getting Maggie on, FD- imho, she's the f'n coolest 😍)
I will never forget when I was in Charlotte downtown working on a Saturday and there was a woman’s march post trump election. I was in a high rise so I had a view of the march and these black protestors kept on saying “black lives matter. Black Lives Matter” to start to get a chant and I heard some boos and no one started the chant. It just made me so jaded seeing white womens post on social media about sexism.
HOD is failing hard in dealing with the patriarchy because they have turned the whole thing into a cat fight between two women without really showing how the patriarchy is the clear cause.
In a strange way they forgot to put the real patriarchy in the show.
You get the since that the women could just stop fighting and the feud would be over.
They didn’t constrain the actions of the female characters enough. It should have been clear that the Queen (Hightower) can’t actually change the decision of the men around her in their attempt to put her son on the throne. That she was actually in physical danger herself if she didn’t go along with it and act accordingly.
There is no conflict in her character. She should have been told that if she doesn’t go along she would be locked in her quarters away from her children.
If we felt the knife scene was her proving her loyalty to her father to make sure he believed that she was truly now on his side… so much weight and complexity would have resonated off that scene.
We also need to feel her fear of her evil son possibly taking the throne.
We need to feel that she would do anything to tell her old friend she is trapped. Scenes where she almost tells her but doesn’t because they will lock her away from her children….. etc etc
I could go on and on.
If you want to make a comment on the patriarchy you gotta put a somewhat real version of it in the show.
….. of course this only one way…. We could have also seen her farther training her for obedience more at a younger age…. there are lots of different ways to do it.
I am curious about this comment. I am only halfway through HoD but I got that the villain was Patriarchy in episode 1.
This is so ironic. To me it’s failing because it’s white feminism. These are highly privileged women protected by armies. Living a better life than the women barely mentioned who’s children are fighting to the death in the streets, selling their bodies, and begging because of the men in their lives. Men who placed them in a palace. They aren’t fighting for women. They’re fighting for legacy, power, protection, and for the benefit of the men they birth, marry, and give them to other men.
"I'm from outside of Chicago, in Michigan" so 3 hours away? 😂
it's super sad to not even be able to recognize misogyny exists until you see it happening to another group. like the story around being pro life is just sad to me
ummmm sooo, yeah... like sooooo... uhhhhh... ummm like... sooooo uhhh like
I don’t like that she projected this relative understanding of her “white beauty” as at all valuable and not a toxic construction.
I don’t like the acceptance of the classic white narrative where they “realize” slavery is bad. Where they “realize” black people are treated worse. They weren’t bad people behaving with the chosen luxury of negligence? They just didn’t know black people were also humans”?
We shouldn’t coddle white fragility. You shouldn’t have people on who can’t stand to be questioned harshly about something gaslit every day. She had an allegiance to whiteness she swapped off of as all “reformed white allies”
Why are we laughing? Haha black suffering.
Two of my favorite RUclipsr's. Thanks for having @Maggie Mae Fish
People of Kzoo we got our mentions lets gooooo!!
Oh my God, they broke out the hand 😅
Love to see two of my favorite media analysis content creators coming together discussing important things that I would never even think to look up
What happened to the full stream, did it get struck?
The archived streams are available only to Patrons, but you can catch them live on his main channel
@@EricChoiniere thnks
FD in the writer's room would be some fire shit tho!
So off topic but WHY DIDNT I KNOW FD WAS IN MICHIGAN?! I’m from Kalamazoo and most people don’t even know my city exists!!
I love the content of the conversation, but the um's and uh's make it painful to listen to on my drive home. Good insights though
When White Feminism came to the Americas they were fighting for rights that would have seen Indigenous woman become second class citizens. Indigenous women were leaders of Nations.
I'm loving all your videos!! could you please add the names of the people/writers you mention in a text? Because sometimes I don't understand them... Thank you so much for your content!!
Back in the day when my parents work in England they were places refused u a job if u were Catholic until laws changed
Sorry of males and females there uo to 7 depends who u ask plus am into numerology life path 6 is the stay at home mum u feel like shit when people ask me am I working my son got learning disabilities am a carer u feel like u have ti explain myself
I caught that Gloria Steinhem comment. I always thought she was an occasional agent.
Feels like watching the ending to Sopranos all of a sudden.
I LOVE ME SOME MAGGIE
This was great… I could talk about my own experience in KC with college, racism, segregation, awareness, etc but the real point is that even though I learned all about privilege and power academically, and carried a huge amount of white guilt for over a decade, it’s no substitute for actually engaging with BIPOC human beings and their media. I gave my sister a bell hooks book I never read and didn’t understood as a birthday gift when I was like 22 lol. I think appreciating the humanity of people trying to escape their privilege is almost as important as making time and space for voices coming from faces that don’t look like you
Uhhhh
She talking about St. Joe's and Benton Harbor.
wait wait....what?...what happened?....we got cut off at the good part!
FD and Maggie!! What a treat!
11:45 I remember that moment in my life
Teacher and thanks 💕🤞🏾💕
*sings about Kalamazoo*
Usa different than how I brought up
Tbh I don't like these kind of "crossover" convos. Just seems like a recreational thing to whyte folks. I'm over "dissecting" r@cism. Mfs know what they're doing..
Intersectionality is BS.
The video suddenly turns to black?
Sigma alfa gamma and so on are all types of acetypes
Great conversation
what yall said at the end especially was incredible
9:30 - 10:00 lol what? I don’t even know what the hell he said.
ope, just wanna shout out Maggie Mae's Omega Mart cup 😂
New to the channel and just subscribed ! Here to learn
Different now though
Great conversation, really cool to see these two come together. Would love to see more
First comment?!!
Lil long winded wont she
TIL Kalamazoo is a real place
Maggie!!!😃
the hyper focus on identity in our politics is the reason we are about to be a christian fascist theocracy
What's stopping you from forming a class revolution with other white leftists? I mean you don't need to give a shit about minorities at all to care about class from what I gathered. Trust me your pov isn't unique, class reductionism has taken our movement by storm. Get a group of white people together and historically you've always made things happen, so what's stopping you? Asking in good faith
@@LuffyBlack if we had focused on the economic issues all the other issues would have fallen into place, focusing on your race or who you bang has only served to cause endless division, just as intended. The thing that stops all people who try to do good or work for the environment or workers rights and can make a real difference--if i could make a difference i would already be dead, if they think you are a threat to profit, you get shot.
You nailed it!