Also to add, the comparison which we have done here are between M88-2 (used in Rafale) and F404-402 (used in Hornets) both are baseline engines of their class. Higher thrust version of both engines also exist. The engine used in LCA Tejas is the F404 IN20 where max thrust is 84kN and dry thrust is above 52kN but in that case mass flow rate of engine has been increased thus the SFC is more too. In the case of M88, there is also an engine M88-3 which was proposed as a replacement to GE/Volvo’s RM12 engine producing dry 54kN thrust and max 80kN thrust replacement producing max 85-90kN thrust with same weight giving better T/W ratio but again better SFC than F404. So, please don’t be confused
Hoga Bhai biggest issues were sorted out already for you're knowledge Tessy Thomas missile women of india working in drdo has already said that it's ready to power Tejas it generates 81kn She also said some components metallurgy can be replaced with light weight alloys components reducing its weights also and in this whole new drama such thing are done and definetely kaveri will be able to power Tejas the only issue is kaveri is reported 81kn thrust will new engine which is based on kaveri will surpass 85kn of f404 is a big question ⁉️
@apratimamitra have you not seen the movie humse hai muqqabala Or heard that famous song translated as thus "If old women comes and sit next you in the bus, "take it easy policy'" "If while watching your favourite chitrahaar program, if electric power goes off then " Take it easy policy".😉😃😃
I say KAVERI is the future. No Safran nor Rolls Royce. We have come this far with Kaveri, we need to improvise a little more. What we need to understand is that Jet engine is a very critical type of technology and no country is going to give it, no matter what. I am not confident that the French are going to be ready to part away with their engine technology, the deal with Safran might simply involve screwdriver-giri like, they may let us manufacture some of the engine parts but the core tech which our scientists need will not be shared. Same with UK's RR. At the end of the day, it's our money and efforts which will give out the desired input. Rafale uses two Snecma M88 engines. It can generate a maximum thrust of 50 kN (11,200 lbf) without afterburner and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) with afterburner. During many tests of the Indian Kaveri, the engine was able to generate a thrust of 16,000-17,000 lbf (70-75 kN). I think the problem with Kaveri is that it's inefficient in terms of shelf life, though it can generate the desired amount of thrust that an engine of it's dimensions should, the engine blades would later break, and this posed a problem. India is self dependent in many things, many times the world refused to give us access to certain technologies, what did we do? We built them indigenously in house itself because we needed to. I strongly believe that India is on the verge of finally cracking jet engine technology through the Kaveri programme, and when that happens we can proudly say that India is truly Atmanirbhar in aerospace technology.
Yes agree, always remember that the deeds you do now will only be visible in the future. In present we have to face such challenges and back-talks, but after successfully developing a jet engine all those things doesn't matter. Atmanirbhar is the future.
Absolutely correct. There should be compromise to mitigate foreign blackmail, even if Chandigarh lobby in Indian Air force agrees or not. Even China has gone through this phase to get to this position and India position is not as bad as China in the same phase. The project can be easily managed for Kaveri engine with additional maintenance cost over 5 - 10 year for upgration of all Tejas fighter BTW its said that Kaveri engine overall is 3000 hr while F404 and Scene a is more than 4000 hr means Kaveri engine maintenance is better than Chinese and Russian but not better than western engine
Dry variant has already successfully tested.... Single crystal blade technology also is proven with kaveri engine. Only thing remaining is afterburner section..... Which I think our scientist can do easily❤
You have made excellent observation. The channel has made a good comparison between F404 & M88, but dont have details of same parameters of kaveri. We do not invest money, also always scared of doing new things. Want success in the first go. Rafale is a twin engine, Kaveri is + - 5KN engine. DRDO/ADA should attempt twin engine kaveri, enough reserves are always there with every engine, the life is always dependent on how its operated nothing is santum santorum. I was witness to destructive testing of kaveri in BHEL hyderabad 15 years back. We have done a good job with Tejas & GSLV, similarly kaveri also will improve over the period. The BEST OPTION. ANY AMOUNT OF TOT WILL NOT COMPARE WITH OWN TECHNOLOGY.
Power output is about the same Kaveri 49kN dry 74kN wet thrust (derated Kaveri engine for Ghatak), M88 50kN dry and 75kN wet but M88 is much lighter by 200kg.
For supercruise, you need higher exhaust velocities, which is a function of nozzle design. Trade-off is you don't get much "delta" with afterburners. Another trade-off is the shock induced losses in the nozzle at high exhaust velocities. All these thrust figures you see are at stationary conditions i.e on a test bed.
It appears the first Kaveri engine was operated in 1995. It's been 29 years in the making. How many years more before we hear of successful launch of the indigenous engine ?
Because M88 is relatively a new engine, even France used F404 in Earlier Rafale prototypes, also F404 has higher wet thrust which is something important in the case of LCA. A higher thrust M88, which will be able to produce more than 90kN of thrust (M88-3) will give Tejas far superior performance than what we are getting with the F404. Also cost is a factor too, F404 is cheaper
Simple M88 wasn't ready when tejas design phase was complete.. Fighter jets r designed around it's engine. Other factor is cost.. Due to economy of scale GE F404 costs around 7 million dollars while European M88 or eurojet costs around 15 million dollars.. IAF was impressed with eurojet bt DRDO chose F414 as it was L1 bidder.
Also the dimensions of m88 engine is very small which gives more space in the airframe for other equipments or fuel.. This in itself is a very important factor why rafale has such a good range inspite of such a small airframe.
If dry thrust as stated by defence matrix for m-88 is approx 50 kn and for kaveri engine 45-48 kn tho "unees bhis ka fharak hai " Or rather in this case "adtalaasis aur pachaas ka farak hai".
Not only M88 and F404, If we compare other French and American engines, French engines have higher dry thrust but lower wet thrust, while American engines have lower dry thrust but higher wet thrust. Why do they follow different approach?
@@coolkal7590 thanks a lot. If you have time, can you elaborate a bit on it as both countries produce best engines with best electric power and fuel efficiency.
You have made a good comparison between F404 & M88, you dont have details of same parameters of kaveri. We do not invest money, also always scared of doing new things. Rafale is a twin engine, Kaveri is + - 5KN engine. DRDO/ADA should attempt twin engine kaveri, enough reserves are always there with every engine, the life is always dependent on how its operated nothing is santum santorum. I was witness to destructive testing of kaveri in BHEL hyderabad 15 years back. We have done a good job with Tejas & GSLV, similarly kaveri also will improve over the period. The BEST OPTION. ANY AMOUNT OF TOT WILL NOT COMPARE WITH OWN TECHNOLOGY.
Hamara pehla kaam kaveri engine ko proven category me dalwana hai uske baad isko multiple engines ke sath bombers me use Karna hai v lighter fighter a/c single seater me bhi use kar sakte hain jo emergency air support ke liye faaydemand ho sakta hai
The thrust to weight ratio is not the most important thing in an engine, engine shelf life, maintenance period and reliability is the biggest parameters European engines at least one decade ahead of the Russian ones ( only exception are AL 41or Izdeliya 30 but not superior compared to the American ones)
Although you are right but first of all atlist your fighter must be fly in blue sky and capable to take weapenry and generate enough power for heavy load and reliable and stable Russians engine are very hight thirst but thy are unreliable and short life spane because thy are bigger huge and bulky there fuel consumption is very hight in Indian hot climate there performace got down but in Russian climate thy are better performed that's why we Indian want American europens digital advance engine for tajas rd33 mki use in mig 29and sukoi al31fp are problematic there abability rate is merly 45 to 35percent that's is why we are not use Russians engins in future
This is very logical point. It is to be seen that a higher version of M88 ( 3rd or 4th ) with higher thrust can be made as a stand by engine if any twist comes from USA regarding supply of F-404 engines for Tejas. Only point of worry is the size of engine compatibility & full authority digitally controlled fly by wire system, to be rewrite or what?
Nahi hoo saktta m88kaa thirst kaam hai f404kay mukably aur tajas single engine fighter hai aur rafels double engins aur app single engine m 88kaa laggavdoo toh tajas jorr lagga kar hawa may toh urr jaygaa per performace aur weapenry carry nahi kar payaga aur Rader Kay leya enough power generate nahi karr payyagaa
problem in India is ham ek to 100 jane ki koshish kar rahe hai...ek dam nahi hota...development step by step process hai...dhere dhere hoga...bada engine dheere dheere develop hojata hai...chote plane chote engine se to ban skate? we need 100% made in India aircraft badia ho ya ya na self-reliance should be priority 🙏
I have the notion that M88 is itself a notch above Kaveri and F404. M88 is in fact comparable to the base variant of F414. Anyway, Bharat is interested in dry thrust 110Kn , not dry thrust 50Kn engine development with Safran. But Kaveri engine is gearing up for another job and it is a wholly GTRE initiative . The Kaveri engine dry variant for Ghatak UCAV has passed the high altitude testing at Gromov and has generated 48.5 Kn of dry thrust - one of the best in its category. Godrej had been provided the tech to create 6 units of this Kaveri which will undergo inflight testing. Once it passes, Ghatak's engine is ready but work will start on an afterburning variant of this successful engine - There would be the need to reduce weight and develop heat dissipation bypassing airflow because afterburning temperatures reach higher than dry thrust. The competition of the Kaveri is not with the M88, but with GE F404, because of geo politics. In upcoming days Kaveri's success is most important so that GE takes a case and delivers all the GE F414 units and do not stall Tejas Mk2 development. The way US senate is , it is completely unreliable - we cannot keep looking forward to Trump and Ramaswamy to better our chances . USA has lot of issues itself and we have involved France in a bigger 110Kn dry thrust project. Its safe to go ahead with the Kaveri instead of reinventing M88 again. Moreover with more Rafale order and its make in India clause , the M88 core will make its way here itself. Dassault and Thales are both setting up workshops in Bharat now...Safran is just some declarations away. But Kaveri engine will not die and would kick GE out of Tejas projects soon.
Completely shutting down Marut was a huge blunder from our side…that jet failed due to bad engine only…Marut should be restarted again with improved materials, engine, avionics, radar, etc.
This is not the time for comparison of Kaveri engine -local vs Safran. We must continue to work on Kaveri and make it a viable alternative, while working with Safran to understand what works and why. That is the way , let us not sit on judgment.
Good. So if it is as good as that stop negotiations with other countries for engine and focus and something where we need to engage them. Now start integrating Kaveri into Tejas. Reality is we are too far from the goal and we use the term as good as or better than terms.
Paisa vaisa kharchna nahi hai performance chahiye M88 jaisi😂. Ek Aircraft to do hamare Kaveri ko testing ke liye. Russia bhejna padta hai. Itni dependency rahegi to ho gaya indigenous jet engine.
Weight reduction below 1000 Kg is must for Kaveri to succeed. Even if we are able to enhance thrust weight reduction is key for this engine to be used in Kaveri.
yes gotta keep it going. gas turbine version for naval cargo vessels, UAVs or any applications we can use and develop further. we have to keep it going unlike marut. India invested very little money on engine development and expects a lot.
The MOST critical factor for an engine is AVAILABILITY ! For us - GE engines are available ONLY on paper & others are not available on paper even. will Rolls Royace not stall Indian fighter jet program ? Is France ready for transfer of tech for uninterrupted supply to HAL / Indian Air Force ? Kaveri may be producing a little less thrust - but if used in twin engine jets - would be trouble free of supply chain issues.
India's Kaveri project to build jet engines must be the world's longest defense project with no end in sight. In the early 1980s, India started a defense project to build jet engines domestically for the Jetas aircraft, this project was eventually canceled 3 decades later due to technical difficulties and the lack of progress. This newly revived Kaveri project is likely to suffer the same as the earlier one. India's decision to build jet engines under license with GE and Safran clearly shows it has no confidence in its Kaveri project. When compared to India, China was able to become self-sufficient in jet engine production in a much shorter period of time. After 40 years, India is still struggling to build a viable jet engine, this reflects India's wasteful spending and incompetence.
Difference M 88 is proven technically & using it in mighty Rafael aircraft. Kaveri is still under developmental stages. Maybe better than M 88 in longer run. It's stupidly to compare which will create unnecessary confusion. Jai Hind
We are using single engine on Tejas mk1 or mk1a and that to also GE engine why can't we use two kaveri engines on Tejas mk 2 which is coming up and also on TDEF which is also we are making and we can still make some innovations on kaveri engine and that can be used on AMCA.
Then please make a video why F404 was selected instead of M88 for Tejas MK1? Since we know US can't be trusted at any cost and France is quite a reliable partner then why F404?
Always remember that the deeds you do now will only be visible in the future. In present we have to face such challenges and back-talks, but after successfully developing a jet engine all those things doesn't matter. Atmanirbhar is the future.
Sir, Can you also make a video on how much capable Rafael is compared to fifth gen fighters of our rivals?? As fifth gen for IAF is 1 decade away from today.
I can't say anything for f22 but against f35 when F35 radar try to hard lock Rafale this aircraft detected them in no time .The biggest plus is meteor who is able to maintain lock on F35. So against J20 its performance is superior i consider.
Are yaar j 10c ka to sawal hi paida nahi hota. Agar uske paas behatar avionics aur meteor ke barabar bhi missile aa jaaye to bhi. Vajah hai Rafale ka spectra aur low cross section of Rafale. Vaise meteor jaisi missile China ke pass aa jaye to IAF bahut disadvantage me aa jayegi. J10c to nahi par j20 Rafale se aage ho jayega.
@@Dexterj8704😂 😂 this cho***ya is a true bollywood movies writers.. First learn what is rcs and how radars detect other planes.. In real war rafale with its tiny radar won't able to detect any 5th gen which all have less then 0.01.. While rafale with weapons will have 5+... Even j10 can detect rafale from nearly 30km earlier then rafale.. While j10s pl15 is far superior...
First we were comparing MK2 to Gripen NG. Now we are comparing Kaveri to M88. Whats common? our work is so shoddy, we are forced to compare RELIABLE WORKING PRODUCTION MODELS to ON PAPER DREAMS THAT WILL most likely fail.
Development of such niche products need National vision not number counting and stat comparing. We are running Jaguars on jugaad after their engines have degraded. Whatever thrust Kaveri produced an aircraft should have been built around it, single or double engined. Thats how one improves their future performance. The current approach will lead to Kaveri being an wternal lab rat, especially with the attitude of our armed forces where they demand perfection from indigenous products but downplay deficiencies in foreign platforms
I think we should develop this engine to produce 80 kn wet and 50 dry in thrust but make them more better than Russian in life service and others thing so we can use it in ship mig 29 etc
Mera ek sawal hai ki। Ham Sukhoi 30 mki upgrade me russian AL 41 ki jagha ek baar USA ka F110 132 engine kyo nhi try karte Jo ab 142kn thrust kr better' performance deta hai sath hi jyada reliable and low maintenance engine h
Ipr rights nahi hai yah American property hai hum engine say koi charr chaar nahi karr saktya American baukuuf nahi hai unkya engine may censer laggya hai aur puree tarh sealed patee packed hai aur unkhya engins jasus kuttya ki tarh sungtya rahtya hai
I think you should update yourselves. No doubt GE engine is good, but Americans can never be trusted. So all our Su30 MkI will be at their mercy if we adopt their engines
Biggest factor u didn't discuss thoroughly is life cycle. The more u increase the thrust with same metallurgy the more it looses life cycle hours. We all know American engines have approx 8000 hrs life cycle French engines have approx 6000 hrs life cycle Russian engines approx 2000 to 3000 hrs of life cycle Chinese WS10 had 180 hrs life cycle initially then they paid russians and got AL 41 engine ( su 35 engine) TOT. Now they r around a gen behind Russian engines because russians have developed Izdeliye engines for Su57. Nobody knows life cycle of kaveri.. That's the core reason to not use it at present. We have seen manik engine malfunction in consecutive tests of nirbhay cruise missile though it is jst 8kn. There is a reason nirbhay isn't integrated on any of frigates or Corvettes nor air launched version has been developed. They r waiting for manik to get mature.
@@DefenceMatrix I have read somewhere on JSTOR a British journal about it.. I m sorry it's been yrs I can't recall.. Some yrs back I was obsessed with jet engines and I read almost all journals available on it. It was something like " It's worrying for west how china is managing to reduce gap for critical technology vis a vis west"
@@nishantshrivastava9674please do share that info if you find somewhere, because as far as I know you are correct with the lifespan of the Russian engines, but newer AL-41 has also reached 4000 hours of service life whereas the Americans have reached close to 6000 hours, but 8000 hours is something which is new to me, but if that’s the case, I would like to correct myself
@@DefenceMatrix yes f404 has max life of 6000hrs and overhaul time of 4000hrs. The m88 is very behind in it around 4000hrs life,, ej200 has 2000hrs mean time between overhaul. Indeed it uses only 5 LP stage ..that engine is extraordinary powerfull with 60kn dry thrust.
why aren't we putting m88 in tejas then, we can get TOT for m88 and use it for tejas that way if we order more rafaels it will help in maintenance and future upgrades too.
@@suryanshsagar2773 mene price check ki jyada difference nhi nd m88 better engine hai f414 ki category ka thrust utna sayad na ho but kafi other chizzo me use better bhi hai
Too improve Kaveri engine we don't need any French 🥖 help all we need is to utilise GE F414 INS6 core technology like single crystal turbine blades and heat absorbent material for the hot section and other technology we are getting
Sir, if M88 is better than F404 and France is a more reliable partner than the USA for India, why did India choose F404 for LCA Tejas? Is their any other reason except costs
Sir, I have a question that why India is not using snigma M88 engine in LCA Tejas, beside GE 404 ,if france is redy to share its fully engine technology to us and America is trying to deley f404 engine supply 🙄, please make a detailed video on this topic
Also to add, the comparison which we have done here are between M88-2 (used in Rafale) and F404-402 (used in Hornets) both are baseline engines of their class.
Higher thrust version of both engines also exist. The engine used in LCA Tejas is the F404 IN20 where max thrust is 84kN and dry thrust is above 52kN but in that case mass flow rate of engine has been increased thus the SFC is more too.
In the case of M88, there is also an engine M88-3 which was proposed as a replacement to GE/Volvo’s RM12 engine producing dry 54kN thrust and max 80kN thrust replacement producing max 85-90kN thrust with same weight giving better T/W ratio but again better SFC than F404. So, please don’t be confused
Whenever I found related to Kaveri development, my reactions - " to kar na, parisan ho gaye hum" 😡😡
"Mat kar lala mat kar"...
😂
Hoga Bhai biggest issues were sorted out already for you're knowledge Tessy Thomas missile women of india working in drdo has already said that it's ready to power Tejas it generates 81kn
She also said some components metallurgy can be replaced with light weight alloys components reducing its weights also and in this whole new drama such thing are done and definetely kaveri will be able to power Tejas the only issue is kaveri is reported 81kn thrust will new engine which is based on kaveri will surpass 85kn of f404 is a big question ⁉️
@@DavidTurner-og7cv hmmm...your right...I agree to you
@apratimpatra 541 "Parishaan mat ho raja aisa zindagi mea aisa sab hote raheta hai" 😉
@apratimamitra have you not seen the movie humse hai muqqabala Or heard that famous song translated as thus
"If old women comes and sit next you in the bus, "take it easy policy'"
"If while watching your favourite chitrahaar program, if electric power goes off then " Take it easy policy".😉😃😃
I say KAVERI is the future. No Safran nor Rolls Royce. We have come this far with Kaveri, we need to improvise a little more. What we need to understand is that Jet engine is a very critical type of technology and no country is going to give it, no matter what.
I am not confident that the French are going to be ready to part away with their engine technology, the deal with Safran might simply involve screwdriver-giri like, they may let us manufacture some of the engine parts but the core tech which our scientists need will not be shared. Same with UK's RR. At the end of the day, it's our money and efforts which will give out the desired input.
Rafale uses two Snecma M88 engines. It can generate a maximum thrust of 50 kN (11,200 lbf) without afterburner and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) with afterburner. During many tests of the Indian Kaveri, the engine was able to generate a thrust of 16,000-17,000 lbf (70-75 kN).
I think the problem with Kaveri is that it's inefficient in terms of shelf life, though it can generate the desired amount of thrust that an engine of it's dimensions should, the engine blades would later break, and this posed a problem. India is self dependent in many things, many times the world refused to give us access to certain technologies, what did we do? We built them indigenously in house itself because we needed to.
I strongly believe that India is on the verge of finally cracking jet engine technology through the Kaveri programme, and when that happens we can proudly say that India is truly Atmanirbhar in aerospace technology.
Yes well said.
Yes agree, always remember that the deeds you do now will only be visible in the future. In present we have to face such challenges and back-talks, but after successfully developing a jet engine all those things doesn't matter. Atmanirbhar is the future.
Absolutely correct. There should be compromise to mitigate foreign blackmail, even if Chandigarh lobby in Indian Air force agrees or not. Even China has gone through this phase to get to this position and India position is not as bad as China in the same phase. The project can be easily managed for Kaveri engine with additional maintenance cost over 5 - 10 year for upgration of all Tejas fighter BTW its said that Kaveri engine overall is 3000 hr while F404 and Scene a is more than 4000 hr means Kaveri engine maintenance is better than Chinese and Russian but not better than western engine
Dry variant has already successfully tested.... Single crystal blade technology also is proven with kaveri engine. Only thing remaining is afterburner section..... Which I think our scientist can do easily❤
You have made excellent observation.
The channel has made a good comparison between F404 & M88, but dont have details of same parameters of kaveri.
We do not invest money, also always scared of doing new things. Want success in the first go.
Rafale is a twin engine, Kaveri is + - 5KN engine. DRDO/ADA should attempt twin engine kaveri, enough reserves are always there with every engine, the life is always dependent on how its operated nothing is santum santorum. I was witness to destructive testing of kaveri in BHEL hyderabad 15 years back.
We have done a good job with Tejas & GSLV, similarly kaveri also will improve over the period. The BEST OPTION. ANY AMOUNT OF TOT WILL NOT COMPARE WITH OWN TECHNOLOGY.
Power output is about the same Kaveri 49kN dry 74kN wet thrust (derated Kaveri engine for Ghatak), M88 50kN dry and 75kN wet but M88 is much lighter by 200kg.
Kaveri numbers ( wet thrust) are not tested. Weight reduction by around 100kg is planned.
For supercruise, you need higher exhaust velocities, which is a function of nozzle design. Trade-off is you don't get much "delta" with afterburners. Another trade-off is the shock induced losses in the nozzle at high exhaust velocities. All these thrust figures you see are at stationary conditions i.e on a test bed.
I like your starting music....
It appears the first Kaveri engine was operated in 1995. It's been 29 years in the making. How many years more before we hear of successful launch of the indigenous engine ?
Lauda kuch time pe nahi ho sakta india me
Late bhi itna hota hai ki 40-50 sal late ho jata hai
achha agar M88 is so good and France is more reliable than the US then why do we use F404 for Tejas ??
Because M88 is relatively a new engine, even France used F404 in Earlier Rafale prototypes, also F404 has higher wet thrust which is something important in the case of LCA.
A higher thrust M88, which will be able to produce more than 90kN of thrust (M88-3) will give Tejas far superior performance than what we are getting with the F404.
Also cost is a factor too, F404 is cheaper
AMARICAN bhagat in forces
Simple M88 wasn't ready when tejas design phase was complete.. Fighter jets r designed around it's engine.
Other factor is cost.. Due to economy of scale GE F404 costs around 7 million dollars while European M88 or eurojet costs around 15 million dollars.. IAF was impressed with eurojet bt DRDO chose F414 as it was L1 bidder.
@@DefenceMatrixye sasta ka chkaar hamare desh ko le duba hai hamesha
@@nishantshrivastava9674 😵💫🤭🤣😂bunch of joker r jumping around
Also the dimensions of m88 engine is very small which gives more space in the airframe for other equipments or fuel.. This in itself is a very important factor why rafale has such a good range inspite of such a small airframe.
If dry thrust as stated by defence matrix for m-88 is approx 50 kn and for kaveri engine 45-48 kn tho "unees bhis ka fharak hai " Or rather in this case "adtalaasis aur pachaas ka farak hai".
Though kaveri engines weight has not been mentioned.
Ya but Wight me bhi to 19 - 119 ka fark hai + (cost which is manageable btw) @@sigma-sigma1
kaveri engine generate 49 Kn dry thrust but is heavier than m88 by 130 kg .
Not only M88 and F404, If we compare other French and American engines, French engines have higher dry thrust but lower wet thrust, while American engines have lower dry thrust but higher wet thrust.
Why do they follow different approach?
Electrical power & fuel efficiency
@@coolkal7590yes that's more important
@@coolkal7590 thanks a lot.
If you have time, can you elaborate a bit on it as both countries produce best engines with best electric power and fuel efficiency.
You have made a good comparison between F404 & M88, you dont have details of same parameters of kaveri. We do not invest money, also always scared of doing new things.
Rafale is a twin engine, Kaveri is + - 5KN engine. DRDO/ADA should attempt twin engine kaveri, enough reserves are always there with every engine, the life is always dependent on how its operated nothing is santum santorum. I was witness to destructive testing of kaveri in BHEL hyderabad 15 years back.
We have done a good job with Tejas & GSLV, similarly kaveri also will improve over the period. The BEST OPTION. ANY AMOUNT OF TOT WILL NOT COMPARE WITH OWN TECHNOLOGY.
Hamara pehla kaam kaveri engine ko proven category me dalwana hai uske baad isko multiple engines ke sath bombers me use Karna hai v lighter fighter a/c single seater me bhi use kar sakte hain jo emergency air support ke liye faaydemand ho sakta hai
The thrust to weight ratio is not the most important thing in an engine, engine shelf life, maintenance period and reliability is the biggest parameters
European engines at least one decade ahead of the Russian ones ( only exception are AL 41or Izdeliya 30 but not superior compared to the American ones)
Although you are right but first of all atlist your fighter must be fly in blue sky and capable to take weapenry and generate enough power for heavy load and reliable and stable Russians engine are very hight thirst but thy are unreliable and short life spane because thy are bigger huge and bulky there fuel consumption is very hight in Indian hot climate there performace got down but in Russian climate thy are better performed that's why we Indian want American europens digital advance engine for tajas rd33 mki use in mig 29and sukoi al31fp are problematic there abability rate is merly 45 to 35percent that's is why we are not use Russians engins in future
Aab russian kha se aa gye yha😂
Can M 88 replace F 404 to improve the performance of Tejas Mark 1As and be a safeguard against US interventions in our programs?
It should be possible, but M88 is going to be more expensive than F404.
This is very logical point. It is to be seen that a higher version of M88 ( 3rd or 4th ) with higher thrust can be made as a stand by engine if any twist comes from USA regarding supply of F-404 engines for Tejas. Only point of worry is the size of engine compatibility & full authority digitally controlled fly by wire system, to be rewrite or what?
There are variants that can serve the purpose But never entered production
No there are many other parameters it's not that easy we had to do changes in air intakes of Tejas for f404 intake parameters
Nahi hoo saktta m88kaa thirst kaam hai f404kay mukably aur tajas single engine fighter hai aur rafels double engins aur app single engine m 88kaa laggavdoo toh tajas jorr lagga kar hawa may toh urr jaygaa per performace aur weapenry carry nahi kar payaga aur Rader Kay leya enough power generate nahi karr payyagaa
Kaweri is under progress,we achieve this.
problem in India is ham ek to 100 jane ki koshish kar rahe hai...ek dam nahi hota...development step by step process hai...dhere dhere hoga...bada engine dheere dheere develop hojata hai...chote plane chote engine se to ban skate? we need 100% made in India aircraft badia ho ya ya na self-reliance should be priority 🙏
Everything being put in its perspective good job nobody else told in such clear way..... Alot of doubts r cleared
I have the notion that M88 is itself a notch above Kaveri and F404. M88 is in fact comparable to the base variant of F414.
Anyway, Bharat is interested in dry thrust 110Kn , not dry thrust 50Kn engine development with Safran.
But Kaveri engine is gearing up for another job and it is a wholly GTRE initiative . The Kaveri engine dry variant for Ghatak UCAV has passed the high altitude testing at Gromov and has generated 48.5 Kn of dry thrust - one of the best in its category.
Godrej had been provided the tech to create 6 units of this Kaveri which will undergo inflight testing.
Once it passes, Ghatak's engine is ready but work will start on an afterburning variant of this successful engine - There would be the need to reduce weight and develop heat dissipation bypassing airflow because afterburning temperatures reach higher than dry thrust.
The competition of the Kaveri is not with the M88, but with GE F404, because of geo politics. In upcoming days Kaveri's success is most important so that GE takes a case and delivers all the GE F414 units and do not stall Tejas Mk2 development.
The way US senate is , it is completely unreliable - we cannot keep looking forward to Trump and Ramaswamy to better our chances . USA has lot of issues itself and we have involved France in a bigger 110Kn dry thrust project.
Its safe to go ahead with the Kaveri instead of reinventing M88 again. Moreover with more Rafale order and its make in India clause , the M88 core will make its way here itself.
Dassault and Thales are both setting up workshops in Bharat now...Safran is just some declarations away.
But Kaveri engine will not die and would kick GE out of Tejas projects soon.
Completely shutting down Marut was a huge blunder from our side…that jet failed due to bad engine only…Marut should be restarted again with improved materials, engine, avionics, radar, etc.
The problem with kaveri is its super heavy and it is not producing a good thrust according to its weight. Yeah thrust to weight ratio matters.
This is not the time for comparison of Kaveri engine -local vs Safran. We must continue to work on Kaveri and make it a viable alternative, while working with Safran to understand what works and why. That is the way , let us not sit on judgment.
V must keep improving the kaveri platform more and more ,one day v vil succeed for sure ..absolutely don’t discontinue the program
There is a sham in rejecting this engine. Though it's a good engine it generates less power and the present need is much more.
Hamre desh ke best scientist ko hire karke isse improve Krna chahiye. Agar videsh se scientist higher ho sake to oonhe bhi hire Krna chahiye
Good. So if it is as good as that stop negotiations with other countries for engine and focus and something where we need to engage them. Now start integrating Kaveri into Tejas.
Reality is we are too far from the goal and we use the term as good as or better than terms.
As soon as possible, we need Kaveri engine technology
Can we not use 2 kavery engine in the AMCA testbed/prototype? Can we not use kavery in the LCA MK2 testbed/prototype
Very good and detailed comparison 👍🏼👍🏼!! Where did you get the detailed specs of M88 and F404?
We should invest in m88-3&4 in a jv for joint ip and tot. M88-3 for mk1a& rafale . m88-4 for tedbf and mirage 2000. Future engine for amca & mk2.
Good video , both positive and negative aspect covered .
Can we use Katerina in Jagur fighter planes
Sorry kaveri engine in jagur planes
Paisa vaisa kharchna nahi hai performance chahiye M88 jaisi😂. Ek Aircraft to do hamare Kaveri ko testing ke liye. Russia bhejna padta hai. Itni dependency rahegi to ho gaya indigenous jet engine.
Sir why we don't use snigma m88 engine in tajes instade of f404 enjine
Weight reduction below 1000 Kg is must for Kaveri to succeed. Even if we are able to enhance thrust weight reduction is key for this engine to be used in Kaveri.
Sir ji GE 404 new update engine is good or not !? Compare with kaveri
How Gripen NG is able to perform super cruise with F414 engin? It's mentioned in their official website
yes gotta keep it going. gas turbine version for naval cargo vessels, UAVs or any applications we can use and develop further. we have to keep it going unlike marut. India invested very little money on engine development and expects a lot.
The MOST critical factor for an engine is AVAILABILITY !
For us - GE engines are available ONLY on paper & others are not available on paper even.
will Rolls Royace not stall Indian fighter jet program ? Is France ready for transfer of tech for uninterrupted supply to HAL / Indian Air Force ?
Kaveri may be producing a little less thrust - but if used in twin engine jets - would be trouble free of supply chain issues.
India's Kaveri project to build jet engines must be the world's longest defense project with no end in sight. In the early 1980s, India started a defense project to build jet engines domestically for the Jetas aircraft, this project was eventually canceled 3 decades later due to technical difficulties and the lack of progress. This newly revived Kaveri project is likely to suffer the same as the earlier one. India's decision to build jet engines under license with GE and Safran clearly shows it has no confidence in its Kaveri project. When compared to India, China was able to become self-sufficient in jet engine production in a much shorter period of time. After 40 years, India is still struggling to build a viable jet engine, this reflects India's wasteful spending and incompetence.
At present Kaveri is over weight.
Very detailed video
Why don't we use F414 in Tejas mk 1a
Difference M 88 is proven technically & using it in mighty Rafael aircraft. Kaveri is still under developmental stages. Maybe better than M 88 in longer run. It's stupidly to compare which will create unnecessary confusion.
Jai Hind
No matter what, kaveri should keep flowing, current can vary
Could anyone clarify if Kaveri engine project is still alive..?
Both generate similar thrust but the problem is our tejas is single so we need high thrust engine. Fault of ADA to make Tejas a single engine jet
Jai Hind Jai Bharat
Like no 2
We are using single engine on Tejas mk1 or mk1a and that to also GE engine why can't we use two kaveri engines on Tejas mk 2 which is coming up and also on TDEF which is also we are making and we can still make some innovations on kaveri engine and that can be used on AMCA.
Then please make a video why F404 was selected instead of M88 for Tejas MK1? Since we know US can't be trusted at any cost and France is quite a reliable partner then why F404?
No way M88 is already running in active mode in 200 +aircrafts. Kaveri is in development phase.
Excellent video
Problem with after burner section seems to me of METTULERGIC nature we have to do additional research on it
well made video
Le indian analyst- paper engine vs actual engine...our engine is best😂😂😂
Good for twin engine first then later for single aircraft...?
Whenever you do comparison, show it in a table format that will be more easy to understand instead of showing same video repeatedly.
Always remember that the deeds you do now will only be visible in the future. In present we have to face such challenges and back-talks, but after successfully developing a jet engine all those things doesn't matter. Atmanirbhar is the future.
Good information 👍
Sir, Can you also make a video on how much capable Rafael is compared to fifth gen fighters of our rivals?? As fifth gen for IAF is 1 decade away from today.
I can't say anything for f22 but against f35 when F35 radar try to hard lock Rafale this aircraft detected them in no time .The biggest plus is meteor who is able to maintain lock on F35. So against J20 its performance is superior i consider.
@@Dexterj8704Haan Woh sab toh think hai lekin reality mein j10 c Rafael ko hara dega with better avionics and bvr missiles.
Are yaar j 10c ka to sawal hi paida nahi hota. Agar uske paas behatar avionics aur meteor ke barabar bhi missile aa jaaye to bhi. Vajah hai Rafale ka spectra aur low cross section of Rafale. Vaise meteor jaisi missile China ke pass aa jaye to IAF bahut disadvantage me aa jayegi. J10c to nahi par j20 Rafale se aage ho jayega.
@@Dexterj8704 achha 😲😯😮
@@Dexterj8704😂 😂 this cho***ya is a true bollywood movies writers..
First learn what is rcs and how radars detect other planes.. In real war rafale with its tiny radar won't able to detect any 5th gen which all have less then 0.01.. While rafale with weapons will have 5+...
Even j10 can detect rafale from nearly 30km earlier then rafale.. While j10s pl15 is far superior...
GTRE ko kaveri ko Jaguar ke size wala varient bhi banana chahiye tha kyunki ki current Jaguar ke engine se Kaveri ke numbers achche hai😊
Toi fir lca tejas m m88 kiun nhi use kr shkte?
Kaveri engine with test bed most be develop without any delay because it is our own Engine.
नमस्कार
कावेरी इंजन यहां तक बना हे तो आजके एटमॉस्फियर में जरूर अच्छा बन जायेगा बस लगे रहना हे। आखिर हवाईजाहाजो में आत्मनिर्भर जो होना हे।
First we were comparing MK2 to Gripen NG. Now we are comparing Kaveri to M88. Whats common? our work is so shoddy, we are forced to compare RELIABLE WORKING PRODUCTION MODELS to ON PAPER DREAMS THAT WILL most likely fail.
There's a F414 version capable of super cruise used in Gripen E
Mark my words KAVERY WILL BE A GAME CHANGER ....
Development of such niche products need National vision not number counting and stat comparing. We are running Jaguars on jugaad after their engines have degraded. Whatever thrust Kaveri produced an aircraft should have been built around it, single or double engined. Thats how one improves their future performance. The current approach will lead to Kaveri being an wternal lab rat, especially with the attitude of our armed forces where they demand perfection from indigenous products but downplay deficiencies in foreign platforms
I think we should develop this engine to produce 80 kn wet and 50 dry in thrust but make them more better than Russian in life service and others thing so we can use it in ship mig 29 etc
If we can fire 120km astra then not required 100kn engine.just fire and move from fire point.
we should reduce the size of kaveri engine by 10% proportionately which will reduce its weight
Samw Engine Ge404 Gripen C-D is able To carry load of 5500kg and Do Air to air Suprer cruise? What about that?
To m88 ko Tejas may use ku nahi kia jata?
Mera ek sawal hai ki। Ham Sukhoi 30 mki upgrade me russian AL 41 ki jagha ek baar USA ka F110 132 engine kyo nhi try karte Jo ab 142kn thrust kr better' performance deta hai sath hi jyada reliable and low maintenance engine h
😄Kyuki iske liye na kabhi USA allowed karega na Russia,
Ipr rights nahi hai yah American property hai hum engine say koi charr chaar nahi karr saktya American baukuuf nahi hai unkya engine may censer laggya hai aur puree tarh sealed patee packed hai aur unkhya engins jasus kuttya ki tarh sungtya rahtya hai
I think you should update yourselves. No doubt GE engine is good, but Americans can never be trusted. So all our Su30 MkI will be at their mercy if we adopt their engines
Biggest factor u didn't discuss thoroughly is life cycle. The more u increase the thrust with same metallurgy the more it looses life cycle hours.
We all know American engines have approx 8000 hrs life cycle
French engines have approx 6000 hrs life cycle
Russian engines approx 2000 to 3000 hrs of life cycle
Chinese WS10 had 180 hrs life cycle initially then they paid russians and got AL 41 engine ( su 35 engine) TOT. Now they r around a gen behind Russian engines because russians have developed Izdeliye engines for Su57.
Nobody knows life cycle of kaveri.. That's the core reason to not use it at present.
We have seen manik engine malfunction in consecutive tests of nirbhay cruise missile though it is jst 8kn. There is a reason nirbhay isn't integrated on any of frigates or Corvettes nor air launched version has been developed. They r waiting for manik to get mature.
Can you please share associated link which specify the life cycle of these engines.. because 8000 hours is just too good to be true
@@DefenceMatrix I have read somewhere on JSTOR a British journal about it.. I m sorry it's been yrs I can't recall.. Some yrs back I was obsessed with jet engines and I read almost all journals available on it.
It was something like " It's worrying for west how china is managing to reduce gap for critical technology vis a vis west"
@@nishantshrivastava9674 facts bro
@@nishantshrivastava9674please do share that info if you find somewhere, because as far as I know you are correct with the lifespan of the Russian engines, but newer AL-41 has also reached 4000 hours of service life whereas the Americans have reached close to 6000 hours, but 8000 hours is something which is new to me, but if that’s the case, I would like to correct myself
@@DefenceMatrix yes f404 has max life of 6000hrs and overhaul time of 4000hrs.
The m88 is very behind in it around 4000hrs life,, ej200 has 2000hrs mean time between overhaul. Indeed it uses only 5 LP stage ..that engine is extraordinary powerfull with 60kn dry thrust.
why aren't we putting m88 in tejas then, we can get TOT for m88 and use it for tejas that way if we order more rafaels it will help in maintenance and future upgrades too.
Tajas single engine fighter hai aur France Kay engine kamm power datta hai
M88 is expensive than f404
@@kanhyasah6342 F404 se jyada deta hai
@@suryanshsagar2773 mene price check ki jyada difference nhi nd m88 better engine hai f414 ki category ka thrust utna sayad na ho but kafi other chizzo me use better bhi hai
Kaveri dry thrust 52 kn generate karta hai.!
O bhai maro mujhe maro 😂😂😂
Mazaq ho raha hii yeh 😂😂😂
Injia ka klveri enzen 😂😂😂
An important fact is that Tejas is lighter than Rafale. That makes a lot of difference
Time between overhaul
Parts availablity
Cost
kaveri's biggest problem is vibrations and a bit overweight. it's not totally fixed yet.
Too improve Kaveri engine we don't need any French 🥖 help all we need is to utilise GE F414 INS6 core technology like single crystal turbine blades and heat absorbent material for the hot section and other technology we are getting
Without the foreign partnership its not possible for us to develop eco sysem of cutting edge defense technologies
२ कावेरी इंजन लगाकर एक एयरक्राफ्ट नहीं बना सकते हैं?
We love India, we support LRDE, DRDO. But whoever compares M88 to Kavery has a few screws loose .
Question: so why did we go with GE F404 and not with M88 as France is definitely more reliable than uncle sam
Production capabilities
Also m88 is expensive than f404 and we need them in large numbers
Try to wt reduced.and increase thrusts. Good try.
M88 looks much better than F404
Why not consider it for Tejas 2 and amca?
If m88 is better than ge-404, then don't understand why m88 was not used in LCA
5th Gen. Fighter khraridna hoga,sath sath 6tj/7th Gen fighter progrmme suru karna hoga.
Then y not M88 on tejas y f404??
Sir, if M88 is better than F404 and France is a more reliable partner than the USA for India, why did India choose F404 for LCA Tejas?
Is their any other reason except costs
To Bhai iss pe bhi Ek video bna do tejas ko underpower Kyu diya gya hai f414 ya ej2000 Wala engine Kyu nahi
Bhai see the size of tejas beside su30. It is very very small
Sir, I have a question that why India is not using snigma M88 engine in LCA Tejas, beside GE 404 ,if france is redy to share its fully engine technology to us and America is trying to deley f404 engine supply 🙄, please make a detailed video on this topic
Google karo khuud jaan jaao Naa m88 ka power thirst Kam hai American engine Kay mukably
India ke pas khud ka engine hona jaruri hai🔥🔥bhale use na kari jaye ,taki Koi desh blackmail, pressure na daal ske .
Kaveri engine 🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
Why we are not using M88 engine for our tejas ?
Single engine fighter jet
If Kaveri Engine successful in upcoming days can we those engines as a Twin engine in Teja NextGen Model?
Tedbf may use hongya aur dus saal baad jab American engins kho kavari Kay sath replace keyyavjaygaa
@@ASHOK898 100% agree, it is 1230 kgs now it reduced 1175 kg i think
After Ram Mandir all I want to see Indian Fighters with Indian engines in my lifetime.
Don't worry guys, current geopolitics situation ko dekh kar lagata h ki govt serious h kaveri ki revival ko lekar