ok actually "two pyros fight over airblasting the bomb carrier while 4 aimbot snipers kill everything" as a competitive sport built within mvm would be hilarious and genuinely fun to watch.
There's amother comment thread just like this, they came up with the conecpt of Pyro Hockey. Spawn a stationary bomb carrying robot and see who can airblast it to the site with the least shots. Or have 2 teams, one tried to get the bomb in, the other defends.
@@kings5218 arent we all a little queer? im gonna be honest i forgot if basil was in the right or wrong here its been 3 months since ive watched this video
I actually had a friend of mine who just recent got into Mvm that didn’t understand what tacobot or pizzabot were and basil or someone akin to him continuously air-blasted the bomb carrier out of bounds on the last wave and made them have to restart the wave countless times. It made my friend stop playing Mvm and TF2 as a whole only after his 5th tour because he just didn’t like the toxicity of the community and felt it was unwelcoming to new players.
@@Danblak08 as someone who never really played tf2, that would be my tf2 if i want to avoid, well, all of the bad shit from tf2 and having it in its purest form. Heck, the graphics arguably look better then on PC. Prove me wrong
Y'know, seeing Basil's griefing, it'd be kind of interesting to make "Pyro Golf" an unofficial new game mode: Spawn a stationary bomb-carrying bot near the bot's spawn, then try to airblast it to the hatch in the fewest puffs, perhaps with a custom plugin for different "clubs", i.e. airblast strengths. Hell, it might be good enough for custom golf maps!
@@omegaexists hey I worked hard for that golden medigun also it'll drop much more than that if this goes on for long enough everything will be worth CENTS to the ref
10:08 People underestimate how much time goes into gathering footage. Heck, some of my videos include clips from years before. A month is a relatively small amount of time when it comes to edited, well-made content.
I had completed 400 tours, and pyro was my 2nd most played class in mvm long before the gas pass came out. Long before tacobot was a thing, and after not playing for years I decided to come back and have some fun. I saw pyro had this new weapon, and I was having a blast using it. I had only completed a few tours before running into my first Tacobot, who saw me using pyro. He forced everyone in the pub to ragequit on the last wave, using an exploit to avoid being kicked. After that encounter I was blacklisted and harassed daily by tacobot members, they went after me extra hard because of my high tour count, if any member saw me they would ruin the game I was in. I was just trying to have some fun, first time playing tf2 in years, and now I don't play tf2 anymore...
When i become high tour i will have so much fun do the same shit to toxic tours players since they only go againts the good persons so what if the good person becomes an asshole with the assholes but keeps chill with the newbies?
@@viket8316 I strictly only did pubs because I enjoyed helping the noobs to victory. Most new players are doing MvM for fun, so they usually ate the better players to group with. The majority of the higher tour players are egotistical assholes who only play MvM to farm. They are boring to play with, always the same boring grind, they never use off meta stats or do anything fun for challenge. There are lots of fun stuff to do in MvM but you'll never get the chance unless you get a private group of friends now, taco is in every server. They are basically the fun police... I miss the days of running dmg scouts, or money spies, demoknights, Pyro, solider with s normal rocket launcher lol... TF2 is a game, made for people to have fun. Taco and the other groups think MvM is a casino and they wanna pull the slot machine handle as many times as they can in a day. Having fun risks wasting time, so they are all just miserable cunts farming for pennies... lol these losers could make more money at minimum wage
@@viket8316 I mean yeah, we should all kick toxic tour players more but like, don't bother going too out of your way. They're wasting their time by putting loads of effort and care into MvM and their toxic opinions, don't worry that much about having to punish them all for it. They're already punishing themselves enough lmao.
“You wouldn’t pirate a car!” ‘Well as it turns out, given the chance, I WOULD and I DID at the first opportunity’ -the funniest and most true advocation for online piracy.
ok, I would 100% pirate a car just so I can tell people that I made a working car using a 3dprinter. (I know it would cost me more to do this and a lot of time but the thought of pulling up in a 3dprinted 1981 DELOREAN DMC-12 is just too sweet maby if I win the lottery,)
@@russtdragonking8004 some person has legit 3d-printed a car. i saw this a few years ago in an emkay video, but i think it was a ferrari. dont remember if it worked or was just a model
@@friendofp.24 they didn't make sense because people misquote the commercials. The original commercial said "you wouldn't steal a car". But then again, it's a different scenario. When you steal a car, you're taking someone's personal belongings and that means they likely just lose tens of thousands of dollars having to buy another. When you pirate a game, no money is lost.
@@jmvr Technically money is lost. As in you yourself don't need to spend any money to obtain the game. Which means the publisher lost (or didn't obtain) your money, which is a loss. If enough people to this, then a game earns no money. An example for this is Demigod.
I still have a screen shot saved on my Steam profile, proudly as some award, of getting a Tacobot member angry and making it into the 'Must Kick List'. God, it feels good to see grown men cry over a PvE relaxing gamemode.
@@espressonoob just as a small fyi tacobot members are people that put people on a "must kick" list bc of stuff like not pushing f4 to ready or for vote kicks, refusing to switch even if you are only good at the class you're on, and using the gas passer at all and there was speculation that they were working on a bot that'd enter games, sit around, then leave at 1 second until wave starts so the count down starts over then another would join or be waiting
I remember it being on my first ever tour. I played Medic. I got kicked the last wave. I was so confused, my friend got me a ticket to play with him and for some reason I got kicked. “Why would they kick the player that was actively helping them???” I didn’t touch MVM ever after that
The greatest takeaway I have from this video has nothing to do with cheaters. Between tacobot, pizzabot, basil, and the orbiting community of trolls, haters, and outright toxic people, I'm just not going to play Mann Up MVM. Ever.
I'm not going to pick a side but if you have ever had any direct interaction, positive, neutral or negative with a cheater online, even in mere passing, your entire ancestral record, every single thing affected by every single human being in your ancestral tree should should be burnt to a crisp and sent in to a black hole where any information held would be unrecoverable for all eternity. Every single post-it scribble, every cave painting drawn by your direct ancestors 200 000 years ago, every single molecule of ground that has been in tangential contact with their footsteps, all should be purged to the most fundamental unrecoverable state possible.
To both you and the guy replying to you, these groups are a small and vocal part of the community For every asshole there is hundreds of chill people who you'll enjoy playing with, I often have equal fun queueing with random people and queueing with friends And if you give up because of the hackers and assholes, at the end of the day, they won
Yeah I was thinking about getting into TF2 but after seeing how many cheaters there are in the game, and the fact that the people trying to "counter" the cheaters are worse than the actual cheaters is just the icing on the "yeah fuck that" cake
I had basil in a game once where we had a pyro using gas. When basil started trolling, our pyro went full airblast and surprisingly easily countertrolled him. Literally no effort. And then Basil got on mic and started crying like a silly little baby, it was great. If you get your game locked down by assholes like this, simply do it back and they lose all of their power
Damn how do people not see how op gas is. If you have at least 3 brain cells, you’d throw gas from a safe distance and not die immediately. You could probably beat all of two cities easily with a single gas pyro and an engie.
The funniest part about all of this is how a lot of the measures these "gangs" are using to fight each other are either indirect or relate to stopping the progression of the game itself. It's like a war that focuses entirely on who can fuck up or inconvenience the other party instead of murder or destruction.
You know, for that group trying to keep tf2 a pure game, they aren’t exactly pure themselves. A bit obvious when one of the rules they live by is to kick newbies from their matches. What’s the point of new players trying out the gamemode if you’re just going to be a ass to them. Plus, the game doesn’t keep a record for matches lost, and losing a match doesn’t affect item drops, so what’s the point of doing it? Because newbies might ruin the match and make you play longer? Given their lifestyle, i would assume they’d have a lot of time on their hands.
I can understand why they kick newbies If you're gonna be doing something repetitively it's easier to do if at the end of each attempt you get a reward You don't get a reward for restarting 50 times because one player isn't doing enough to help the team It just becomes boring and frustrating at that point And them having lots of time doesn't mean they want to be wasting it over and over again on a single round cause a noob can't play well
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 The hypocrisy comes in when they spend an equal amount of time stun-locking servers instead of just moving on themselves. They will gimp their own time getting drops to harass people they don't like. These people have no problem wasting their time to make sure certain people don't get to play.
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 Or just teach them to play the game? Hell are we just forgetting the part where they KICK PEOPLE LAST MINUTE SO THEY DONT GET ANY LOOT?
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 ... why not just get a full team at that point? they clearly have a big community, so why the hell would they not do full groups...
they don't actually kick new players, just ones who waste time and don't bother reading a guide or listening to anything they ask them to do in game. if ur gonna play a team game, listen to the team or queue with your own :p
Huge respects to you, for diving this deep into this deadly topic and spotlighting with valid reasonings. Great work! Anyway, still, the mindset of the people who cheat in MVM is foreign to me. Regarding the gameplay of MVM as a chore, and decides to turn on a cheat to bypass the 'chores'? MVM is like a mixture of an amusement park and a lottery. Some people are here for the gameplay, and some are here for the lottery. Some are for both. All of their mindsets are acceptable. It's their free will anyways. But if you end up going out of the way, taking an illegal path meantime harassing others, JUST to pull the lever of the lottery machine over and over... Then that's not something we can call an 'acceptable mindset'. That's nothing but a gambling addiction. And what do addicts needs? More gambles? No, a medication.
Playing devil's advocate pretty hard here, but if "some are here for the lottery" is a valid reason to play mvm, how is minimizing the time to do said thing contradictorily not okay? Isn't that policing the "right and wrong" way to have fun? Sure as the video establishes, there's an effect on the fun of those that come for the gameplay by cheating, but the very same could be said by just being good with sniper naturally, or using kritz'd beggars/brass beast/gas etc and effectively soloing waves anyways. Are you still "negatively impactingthe gameplay" of others doing that? And moreso, theres definitely an argument to be made about that last few sentences, smells of "protecting you from yourself" type mindsets. Sure I'd agree there's definitely people that need protection from their own tendencies, but its a slippery slope into moral arbiter behavior and (more broadly outside the scope of tf2) authoritarianism and shouldn't just be taken at face value. setting aside that devil's advocate rant though, yeah I'd probably kick a cheater in mvm.
Yesterday I was playing my first mvm Mann up game, and mid game basil joined, and I was worried the guy was going to do some trolling, but instead played the game like normal. No trolling, just playing soldier and killing the bots.
Not sure if it was the real Basil I played with a while ago, but he had 1,500 tours. Either way, very chill guy, he got in, did his thing, and we conplete the game. Neither him nor anyone else mentioned my low tour count so there's that I guess.
Imagine from the robots' perspective, they're like: "Why the fuck are the humans arguing with each other, shouldn't they be working together to fight against us?"
@@biraptor6205 then the robots proceed to sit at their spawn, with large cups of oil and nuts and bolts in popcorn bags as they see how shit goes downhill
"Is it okay to cheat in PvE?" Can you do it without affecting players that have no interest in cheating? Then do whatever, it's a perfect crime. My main issue would be going into solo que and finding that someone cheats, effectively robbing you of the fun by destroying the difficulty in clearly unintended ways. Trolling by people like Basil is worse than that crap, tho. If you enter a game with the explicit purpose of ruining other people's fun, there's no redemption.
@@minorsalaam I mean for gameplay's sake I mostly agree with you. But actually affecting the economy/getting real steam money in an unintended way is sketchy. Like imagine cheating for an Australium, and using that money to buy other games on steam. If cheating is against TF2/steam tos could that be literal fraud or something?
@@frazfrazfrazfraz i don't know, to me a mvm cheater is the same as a bot that opens your lootboxs's for you. All I see mvm as is a slot machine that takes a long time, that's why I'm okay with it.
I don't even play TF2 currently and never MvM, but the pizza vs. taco rivalry is honestly hilarious. If you choose a side, you choose your favorite kind of toxic: Vitriolic elitists or cheaters. That this is even a debate just shows how much worse than regular elitists one of the sides is.
Just a gentle reminder, MVM has always been a cesspit of negativity, and a magnet for AFK hacking snipers. Valve is physically incapable of moderating their communities and have allowed the problems here to fester from day one. The current state of MVM isn't New. It's simply Worse.
Which is a shame because it is a really neat idea that was executed somewhat poorly and then handled terribly from that point onwards much like everything in tf2 making it into said cesspool that you mentioned.
Yeah, I just recently had someone start the match by bragging about how he was giving himself a handicap by playing with a drawing tablet, and about how he has played boot camp every day for 2 years. Then proceeded to ragequit a BOOT CAMP easy map, because me and a friend were dicking about with non-meta weapons, and wouldn't change when he told us to. MVM tryhards are a rare bunch.
@@tigui555 I think it means that even if you're teaming up with other players, it's frowned upon to fight AI in multiplayer, even though it's not harming real players? I find it weird because it still ruins some people's experience :/
Says a lot about your commitment to making a video as in-depth as possible that you willingly signed yourself up to deal with Tacobot's nonsense just so you could get your footage for the video. Really enjoyable and informative as always, thanks for covering a complicated topic as fully as you did, and great editing as usual!
@@ShayyTV Supposedly some of basils friends are in the comment section trying to say it wasn't him I'm saying supposedly because the supposed "friends" keep having their comment with the link to his account and their supposed connection deleted so it's in the air on if they are lying out their ass. Even assuming they are lying it's not exactly out the the possibility for it to be a actor and regardless of whether it is or not if this is how basil acts in regards to gameplay (trolling entire lobbies because he dislikes one individual, ruining the experience for 4 other people) then yeah he's a scum bag regardless of the one in the video being a fake.
honest to god, the few pizzabots I met on mvm were the nicest players ive seen, they gave free tickets for a tour to a low tour fellow that was playing with us
@@heavyweaponsguy6284 while yes pizza bot is lowering value of drops there are still nice at most and do help newbies and while tacobot became more mellow they are still toxic and some holding games hostage like basil
I absolutely love this video. Not only does it properly bring up both sides, it talks about how they can not only be toxic on both ends, and how one cannot really be greater than another. It then talks in favor of both sides, just to later bring in reasons why the other could be wrong, to truly give you with a shitton of information just in the end to tell you to wash your damn foreskin. (and make your own opinion ig)
I was subject to Basil one day Then *Oregano joined the game* as he proceeded to hack the game, *hack*, as basil proceeded to have a case of 99999 ping level rubberbanding Oregano is the greatest anti troll in all of thyme
I jumped into a Two Cities match and we had a heavy cheating. Was the first time I had actually seen a cheater in MvM from what I remember. We win and he gets a professional killstreak minigun kit. I was coping for hours.
Personally I play MVM for the experience of cooperative gameplay, it brings me enjoyment to help other people in game and real life (which is why I main Medic). having an "auto win" with cheaters is not something I enjoy to be with as it lessens the cooperation being experienced. I tend to server switch if the pyro is overusing Mouse 2 or when I encounter a cheater (has not happened yet). I'm not one to play "this side, that side" and prefer to avoid the drama altogether, but after what was shown in this informative video...I still take no sides and continue my playstyle, but I got some nice info and insight which is never bad in my opinion
I think this video is a good prologue to talking about "playing for fun" and "playing for the gamemode and challenge", because believe it or not, not everybody plays for loot or is a gambling addict. A lot of folks who ticket recycle, play bootcamp, community mvm and occasionally Mann up, play for fun and challenge, hence why some community mvm missions are hard af. So I am curious if Weezy would make a video, that you don't have to farm loot to have fun in mvm
i play for both, the game is fun and having the potential for the funny shiny weapon at the end is fun. neither on their own would interest me that much, i don't open crates often at all
Believe it or not, besides how much i like this channel, i barely play MVM, and when I do i only play 666 and never deviate. I like the challenge and the fun you can get with full strangers
While everything is case by case, this is my general opinion on cheating in video games 1. Single player games: go nuts mate 2. Multi-player co-op: as long as the other teammates are cool with it, you're good 3. Multi-player PvP: don't do it unless you're playing against other cheaters
"Unless against other cheaters" ya no that's a lame excuse. Every time I see someone who does that they are really generous with it or just do so without any other cheaters. I remember playing CS and having the enemy team toggle because they were loosing justifying it by saying I was cheating.
As a person who owns one of the more expensive Australiums, I don't give a shit if the value goes down. In Payday 2 they made it so everybody can get a free skin every day and the value of my collection went down by hundreds of dollars, but I was happy. I just got to get more skins. They were so common in fact I could just give them away to new players and it made their day. Anybody who only likes owning things because it's worth more than other peoples things, or invests in cosmetics for a decade old game with the purpose of making money is an idiot. Besides, the more people spend on mvm tickets the more valve cares about the gamemode/game. Might not make a huge difference but it can't really hurt.
In my honest opinion if the value of the weapon goes down that's a good thing because you'll never sell it at such high prices anyway it's great when you don't have to pay $70 for some golden pixels that make you think your good at the game
Apologies for the jarring skip at 5:39 I originally called Basil a no-no word (wasn't a slur) and the RUclips algorithm picked it up, so I had to edit it out to prevent losing monetization and a 90% viewership (yes, it was that bad). The response to this video has been incredible and I appreciate it a ton
just so you know the word he's talking about, the original video without the cut said: "so basil is.. he's kind of a cunt" this is because youtube calls the word "cunt" a reason to completely destroy any and all monetization of an entire video, on the same level as the N-word.
I gotta say its been a while since I played tf2 and I only played Man vs Machine a couple of times, but when I did I found it fun. I think I always just played the casual version, but even if I was playing man up mode where it looks like you get rewards I would still not condone it at least when I am in the lobby. Personally even if I get loot as a reward in a video game I am against cheating to get it. I don't really care what others do as long as it doesn't affect me. At least with the gasoline can if it's part of the game I might be a little upset, but I would be fine with it because its part of the game and available to anyone. I know going into a game that could be something people use, and if I don't like it I would get upset at valve not the players. I genuinely enjoyed the game mode and by cheating they would be taking away my ability to play it through means that I didn't sign up for when playing it. By cheating unless they advertise that it will be happening I would be upset because I went in expecting an experience and had it taken away unilaterally without my consent thereby wasting my time. When someone cheats like this knowing there is other real people in the lobby that did not agree with it tells me they are selfish and don't think of the other players as real human beings deserving of respect. In regards to how people should act I don't see the difference between video games and an actual real life sport. Treat the people you are playing with like you would if you were on the court playing basketball or out in the field playing football.
Alright, the idea of having two groups of pyros in which one is trying to airblast a bomb into the other teams side sounds like a pretty fun game mode.
The analogy of having a Patreon link in Mein Kampf reminded me of the fact that Henry Ford is reputedly the only American not only mentioned by name but complimented in that exact book.
@@haotatyanalot of wealthy people supported hitler because the economic down turn made the public discontent and they were stsrting to look to the rich as blame. The far right would let the rich maintain power if the world is going extremist thats the horse they back. Thats why we see them funding far right and right wing think tanks currently.
I will say right now I said no, but my reasoning is, I want to play MVM to enjoy a game that encourages teamwork, with the loot also being part of a bonus of it, it's like a reward for working together and getting along when you complete a mission or tour. My other reasoning, is that I feel that with the bots, I agree that it is boring, but it also takes away from someone else being able to fit that slot. For example, if a cheater joins, I'm going to kick them, since that cheater and probably bots or set of cheaters, take those slots away from legitimate players or even new players. Thing about me is that I like teaching new players the mechanics of tours like Two Cities, and for a cheater/bot to take that slot away from a potentially new player, I dislike the idea of that happening.
@@metallord6960 I believe that's due to less players or something, since Two Cities are most popular, due to the Australium drops being directly said (and the expert one does too, it just doesn't say), which makes those two maps the most popular, since Australiums are the most sought after items.
@@metallord6960 They have extremely low player counts because the missions tied to those specific botkillers are pathetically easy and the drops are practically worthless
20:25 This is actually why Strange weapons have lost all of their prestige, too. People just do not believe you anymore when they see that you own a weapon wit 1 million kills. Not when they can boot up an IDLE server with AFK players who farm their strange knives.
I’m worried that I’ll be playing the game for years, getting my Strange Scattergun from the fresh-out-the-box stage to Hale’s Own+ with over 100,000 kills, only for some guy on a casual server to be like “Nice kills. I bet you farmed every single one on an idle server.”
first time i tried out a mann up tour i was kicked for never completing a mann up tour prior, i can see how much more toxic the mann up community is beyond my first experience.
I really enjoyed this video, it's a pretty interesting topic I'd never really considered a lot about. Hearing about this monkey war between tacobot and pizzabot was really funny too. My philosophy on cheaters in MvM does still stick to the mindset that it ruins the fun. For me, I like Mann Up because of that inherent combination of gambling and just normal gameplay. I don't do it enough for it to have a big impact on my wallet, so I like adding that element of gambling to a gamemode that is, also, inherently fun. So when there's a cheater on the team who's cleaning house and leaving me with nothing to really do, with no real strategy or comradery, I am inclined to kick them and leave room for real players. Even then, though, I make sure to talk to the rest of the people in the lobby to see what THEY wanna do, and then we go from there. So, if I were to hypothetically queue into a server with 4 bots, I'd probably just requeue, no harm no foul, and if the majority of players wants to keep a lone cheater we have, I'll either just shrug my shoulders and stick around, or requeue, depending on how I feel that day. You can also argue that this same mindset could be applied to gas passer and kritz demos and whatnot, though I think the inherent difference of them using tools directly in the game is something that affects my decision making. It's a part of the game's design and thus can be called strategy, so even if this also bores me, I'd feel much less morally correct in kicking them. Not to mention I've seen cheaters carry even better than folk using those strats so, y'know I think it's an interesting topic to think about more than people do normally, but ultimately my opinion is the same as before, if not strengthened by some of your arguments towards the end of the video. Great scripting though, I really enjoy watching this channel!
that's my stance more or less. majority rule of the lobby. most don't want it get em out, most are ok with it i'll requeue or take the free mission depending on my mood
PERSONALLY, cheating was a bit of a complicated thing to discuss when it was in MVM but i stand in my point of "if i earned my item without working so hard on it, then the item is pointless". cause i cherish all the important items i got and when i look at them, i always remember the stuggles i experience just to get them. even for an item i brought in store cause it all came from the sweat i experience at work plus ngl that pyro airblast sounds like a fun gamemode like the dodgeball
3:09 coder here, actual anti-cheat systems often are invasive, and need to be root kitted because they're stuck in your system. The anti-cheat, and even DRM can be used to effectively help bypass a fire wall, and spread malicious code into one's computer. Anti-cheat is the biggest lawsuit bringer, and that being said most companies get away with it because most people don't know this.
@@akoyash9964 1. I cheat in games and let me tell you; it doesn't work as well now a days. 2. kernal level access in the past has made programs crash and lead to lawsuits, as thus why companies stopped for a while. 3. said anti-cheat often make it easier to hack into your computer, you can get a virus off of github to hack into someone's phone if the gacha game has anti-cheat. 4. over 90% of anti-cheat that's kernal level is only meant to protect their profits, NOT deal wirh actual hackers. 5. you can easily build a python script to scan for external values and snipe a target. 6. Ive cheated while playing these kernal level anti-cheat and if you can crack the anti cheat as in bypass security on the anti-cheat itself, you can basically turn off the anti-cheat if you're willing to actually cheat the system. 7, Now server side anti-cheat is what companies should use but that would require hiring actual talented coders, the fact H-game companies are the only ones willing to do server side anti-cheat is funny as hell.
i would still be overjoyed to see even a serverside anticheat that does barely anything than knowing theres zero anticheat or other efforts made by devs to stop cheating
@@unfunnycesium server side anti cheat does more than nothing; it's just that it would cost the devs more money to use a server side one. The other problem about kernal level anti-cheat is the bad actors that would want to or know enough people play x game like genshin impact will already have the anti-cheat cracked where it's "working" while the script kiddies who barely do anything would be dealt with sure. I know more and more people that are becoming anti-kernal level anti-cheat because they had their bank accounts hit thanks to an anti-cheat software leaving their computer valun.
"As with any youtuber presented with cancer..." I DEADASS could not predict how that sentence was gonna end! Most engaged I've been on youtube in YEARS!
You briefly showed the Smash tournament that Nintendo shut down while complaining about ToS stuff. That wasn't simply a case of ToS stuff. The tournament in question was an online-only tournament for Melee and Ultimate. They had no specific issues with the Ultimate side, but the Melee side had issues several layers deep. Melee doesn't have online, so an online tournament requires a mod. Nintendo disapproves of mods, but this on its own isn't enough for them to get the lawyers in unless they are charging money for the mod or the mod makes it to headlines. However, this particular mod REQUIRED use of an emulator and could not be used with actual hardware - emulators being another area that Nintendo strongly disapproves but won't quite get them to use their lawyers so long as there are no headlines - but there is yet another catch, the emulators the mod is compatible with are NOT compatible with disk drives and cannot run Melee from a disk - using them requires copying Melee from the disk to the internal memory of the computer the emulator is on, and THAT is where the issue arises, because in Nintendo's view (and indeed, under Japan's anti-piracy laws) that constitutes piracy - piracy required to participate in the tournament. So their lawyers sent the organisers of the tournament a warning that they would be getting a Cease and Desist notice restricting their ability to stream or upload the tournament sent to them if they went ahead with what they were planning ... and the tournament organisers basically responed with "F U", and otherwise ignored Nintendo. At that point Nintendo's lawyers went ahead and sent them the Cease and Desist order covering both Melee and Ultimate because the tournament organisers refused to engage with them while acting in a manner that most lawyers would consider "bad faith" ... while also being incredibly rude. It should, of course, also be noted that the tournament organiser in question was for profit, and stood to make quite a bit of money from the tournament.
I just think cheating in MVM removes the value behind finally achieving those weapons. It removes its status. I know a lot of people probably don't care about that but I always thought it made the game more fun, I love mvm and the weapons show the dedication to that gamemode.
That was incredibly brave of Weezy to both not condemn Basil, but also explain that (at least in Basil's eyes) his intentions are good. Both Tacobot and Pizzabot think they're right, but both sides fail to acknowledge the nuance of the situation in the same way that people who think all cheating is always bad do. At the end of the day, it comes down to a lack of empathy and an inability to understand others that leads to all this toxicity and infighting. The REALLY interesting part of all this, is that it shows the biases and selfishness both sides have. If Tacobot ACTUALLY wanted to get rid of Pizzabot, they'd go to Valve and make them realize there's a community of people abusing external programs in their game. If Pizzabot ACTUALLY wanted to get rid of Tacobot, they'd go to Valve and make them realize there's a community of people bullying and harassing users in their game. Both groups CLEARLY have a big enough community to get Valve's attention, but they're both so stubborn and blind they'd rather just stick to petty harassment that will never end instead of permanently solving the issue. Remember how Weezy said if all cheaters disappeared tonight, a new batch would show up tomorrow? Well that applies to "bad players" and toxic scumbags too. By doing nothing but kicking new players or harassing Tacobot/Pizzabot, both sides will just be stuck in an infinite, never ending battle with a much simpler, faster solution, that they both choose to ignore because they both genuinely think what they're already doing is right, when in reality, both sides are acting petty and stupid.
Pointing this out then makes you wonder whether they just don't realize this or do know this to be the case but simply just choose not to act on it, which in that case then opens an entirely new can of worms of "well if they want to get rid of the other for good, and know they potentially can, how come they won't?" That sounds more like paranoid rambling than anything else, but them choosing to instead directly target each other the way they do already not because they are too blind or stupid to realize their opportunity, but simply because they enjoy harassing each other and use that to get their kicks is crazy to think about but at the same time not at all surprising. Hell, the only reason why pizzabot exists is because of tacobot, so them just wanting to oppose each other and shit talk each other to validate their beliefs and get some fun out of it isn't entirely out the question.
@@davidhong1934 This. They can't just 'go to Valve', because Valve barely has the resources and attention devoted to TF2 for the devs to put together hat crates, let alone address a pressing issue affecting the game's most played game mode, let alone listen to two community groups bitch at each other about one of the less-played game modes. As futile as it is, the verbal mud-slinging and game-ruining is... the only real tactics either of them have, since the arbiter, Valve, isn't paying any attention.
I’m friends with Basil on Steam, and he posted that he was not in this video. He stated that it was Weezy’s friend who had impersonated him for the sake of the video. Basil is a very kind person, and I find it very insulting that they would do this to him. Hell, his tour count isn’t correct and they couldn’t even bother to copy his loadout lol but Basil is in the process of investigating the issue further and I hope he’s able to find some answers.
@@kawaii.jarate would it not be possible basil just has impersonators to begin with? he seems rather notorious in this section and it seems likely ppl would just impersonate him to instill fear into these cheaters for some laughs
This is actually a really interesting video even though I've never played MvM. You see, there is a MMORPG called "Realm of the Mad God" which has a similar problem with cheaters. The game has no PvP elements whatsoever, so many of the points brought up in this video apply to it. The non-action of the devs has lead to large parts of the player base cheating and I'd say well over half of the player base accepting cheating or at the very least not actively condemning it.
I remember playing that game a while back. The hubs were nothing but bots most likely advertising scams. I have not played that game in years because of the massive roadblock between F2Ps and people with money.
@@pepperonipizza8200 Yeah, the spam bots are a problem that has been around for years and years. It's a shame, since it's one of the first things a new player sees and gives them a bad impression. The F2P vs P2P problem isn't really that bad in my personal opinion, since it's not directly P2W. Sure it has its P2W elements, but in a game like rotmg you're going to need to know how to play in order not to die.
@@pepperonipizza8200 That was a massive issue in the past, but it got (kinda) fixed in the recent years. The most P2W feature (pets) that at max level made the game feel like you're playing on easy mode, got nerfed to shit, and grind to get them without paying also got lowered a lot. Also now you can't buy endgame weapons for real life money like you could 5 years ago. You can still buy some "in theory P2W stuff" for money, but they're only QoL and don't impact your overall performance whatsover (something like TF2's backpacks). Also you can get those QoL stuff for free (unlike TF2's backpacks).
I got to say it is absolutely shocking how well wirtten this video is. You do a fantastic job conveying the nuance of a really divisive topic, and the jokes are top notch. Great vid!
A pyro blast off mid mvm match has to be the most interesting concept I've seen. Like playing rocket league while the rest of your team tries to not die lol.
About the Basil thing here’s a game mode idea Pyro Hockey 6 Pyros with infinite ammo on each team with flamethrowers that can only airblast. No other weapons Airblast has a 3 second cooldown It’s First to 5 goals Blu Gets robot player models The goals are pits to knock the bomb into 5 bombs waiting to be spawned 4 Control points are used for blue goals(Red needs to defend that).(Bomb carriers are The Gate bots. The bombs are held by scouts programmed to move randomly and can be pushed by any team’s airblast. Red’s Goal(What blu defends) as the Coaltown Pitfall Note: When the Blu team scores the bomb will be teleported into the center when it can move again.
True that shit was way more funny than it needed to be. Interestingly, I've 250 tours and almost exclusively cheat but I've never run into basil. I think he probably doesn't play much 2C.
I'm personally against cheating in MvM because I'm one of those "Philosophically consistent" people. My fun in MvM is relaxing and just shooting braindead robots while I enjoy the power-creep. The loot is a nice bonus every now and then but generally, I get 4 tickets, and just play 3 of the 4 2-cities missions in Mann Up for a while. When I get bored of MvM I finish it up and rinse repeat sometime later. The main problem with cheating for me is it takes away the gameplay from ME. Cheating in a PvE mode isn't something I'm "against" per se, but it's not something I would like to do. I enjoy the challenges of dealing with newer players plus I like seeing if I can break 300k damage on heavy again.
Again. Thats a feeling of preference and everything, as bad as it makes you feel that argument isn't enough to condemn the cheater. Something Something Gas passer moment
@@luigifan4585 The truth here is that your stance on it doesn't matter. It's valves fault and always has been. Explode on ignite shouldn't have been added for balance reasons, and there should be actual anti-cheat functionality to prevent situations like this from occurring. These would not even be discussion topics if valve did anything for TF2 nowadays, but since the game is largely abandoned except for the obscene amount of money Valve makes from lootboxes and MVM tickets these will likely never be fixed. It's a good thing an anti-cheat update is a possibility right now, but all the stupid shit that happened could have largely been avoided if Valve employees weren't silently punished for working on TF2.
I don't understand people not liking new players. Sure, they may need time to learn how to be effective, however if these guys who have plenty of tours under their belt, took some time to teach and give advice, then these players may actually be more of an asset than a hindrance. The problem is, at least in my experience, is that other people don't want to take the time to inform others on how to improve. Imagine having a puppy, but not wanting to waste time potty training it, and then getting mad when it shits all over the floor. Where was I going with that analogy?
(I play on Bootcamp because I know Mann up is just a money waster.) There are instances where I met cheaters in Bootcamp, they generally ruin the whole point of winning by skill of the team (or at least just two players). I play to get good results because it's fun to see how far I can push a certain class or a weapon. Having bad players on team just means I need to try harder to win (if it is winnable). Cheaters on other hand just make playing on the server almost completely pointless and they waste my time (especially when I find out they are cheating in the middle of the whole game). That’s my view on cheaters in mvm (or atleast in Bootcamp).
@@NerdyCatCoffeeee 1st: Last time it was wave 666, I highly doubt he'd be able to take on the tanks on his own (I did most of the tank dmg before I noticed him cheating) . And I've been playing that wave for long enough to see we'd be fine without him. 2nd: Even if he'd be a good help, it's the type of help I wouldn't desire in any of "bad team" situations.
I'd rather have a cheater than deadweight sometimes. Yeah its satisfying to carry but its only 6 people, I can do so much. Then again I join MvM to relax and frag, not carry like in Casual
@@unknown_aberration You're correct about the tanks, it's the only reason wave 666 isn't solo-able because there's literally no way to get enough DPS out of 1 person.
NGL, seeing Basil (a kind of familiar name for someone with this pfp btw) and a cheater fight by spamming M2 was like an epic battle of side antagonists who most people don't like that much, but it's still entertaining to watch. At one side we have a troll that just wants to fuck around At the other side, a cheater (not that bad in a coop gamemode, but still, it mostly depends in the situation the cheater is in) The battle of the ages... it actually would be nice to have a custom mvm gamemode like this, robots have a timer to die, two players go against each other with infinite ammo and airblast only (like in that one airblast dodgeball mode to give an example, idk)
Hey Weezy I hope your day is good. I think you should do another teir list about sub-classes like trolldier, fat scout, gun spy, battle medic, hoovie, demoknight, boxing heavy, ext... it would be cool to see how you would say how useful each one is.
"the validity of cheating as a concept shouldn't be contingent on the recipient's personal enjoyment" actually i'd say that's the ONLY thing that should determine whether or not cheating is acceptable, the concept of ruining another player's sense of fun or accomplishment applies to all of the points you listed as potentially valid complaints
He unfortunately lost a lot of credibility for me with that. That line alone cemented the fact that, regardless of the arguments he’s putting forward, his agenda is purely selfish, even if unintentionally so. And sure, you could make the anemic argument that everyone is selfish because everyone wants to have fun, but not everyone is willing to do that at other peoples expense nor at the expense of the game’s integrity. Hell, I would even say cheating in solo depends entirely on how the game was designed and meant to be played. Is it a victimless crime? Sure, so there’s really no point in condemning it. But you’re still going against the developers’ wishes and are still delegitimizing the experience, so I would not say that it’s ‘okay’. I’d sooner say people are apathetic about it at best since no one but cheaters and people who’ve never experienced their impact would ever even remotely talk about it positively. This isn’t including cheaters who do it purely to grief. Regardless of if you’re doing it to vent frustration or because you find it funny, you’ve got sociopathic tendencies. I’d say ‘reflect on it’, but empathetically challenged folk will sooner dismiss the notion or laugh at it because they’re incapable or just unwilling to self-criticize.
the only reason I'm against cheating, is because I want to have fun while doing it. This is the reason why I promote an anti-bot client. The bots ruin the experience, throw fun out of the equation, and give everyone a bad time
Personally I'd make the PvE be allowed to have bots but the anti chat takes note of these bots so it can kill the ones in PvP. Hackers get a safe haven to do what they want and it also helps us dealing with people who leave the plantation.
@@jacehackworth6413 Why should you only be restricted to boot camp when playing MVM if you don't want to be queued with cheaters though? What kind of line of reasoning are you on?
@@arslors Basil really isn't that hard a name to come up with given it's an actual thing rather than a made up word, so unless there's evidence of Weezy admitting to it, I'm going to have to say it was a coincidence.
I'm definitely on the side of "read the room" in terms of cheaters. I also think we really should take people's personal feelings into account, it's very important for some players to be engaged in PvE and I get it, I'm the same way (usually). I think one great fix of course would be to prevent players from rejoining after a kick, which would prevent both cheaters and people like basil from reconnecting. Also I just wanna say the value being depreciated is just as much a feeling as other stuff you discounted on those grounds. Caring about monetary value for items you aren't relying on for a living (which you fundamentally can't because you lose money) is just as subjective as wanting a good gameplay experience. Just because you can quantify something, doesn't mean it's a better argument or less subjective. We do all of this for feeling good, not for materially supporting ourselves.
Pretty much this, yes, unless you go and sell those in-game items for IRL money, but that's usually a big legal no-no in a lot of games. "bUt ThE sTeAm WaLlEt!" Can you withdraw money from the steam wallet and put it into your paypal?
@@Tom-cj5wt Because if they are in a 6 man it isn't affecting your gameplay and if they join a lobby that has no problem with the easy carry through the tour it doesn't affect them either, this was all explained in the video that I'm now assuming you didn't even watch.
@@Tom-cj5wt My man I don't play tf2 anymore so honestly it isn't that big of a deal for me. As in regards to why you shouldn't allow it in pvp it hurts others which most normal people don't do because of a basic skill called empathy were you don't want to impart pain, emotional or otherwise, on others due to understanding how it may hurt their feelings (assuming you don't know what this is and it shows) this does not apply in mvm doubly so if again the people in the lobby don't care which as shown in the video half the community doesn't your points are all moot and most of it is just insults in which you try to demean me as if that makes my points any less valid and yours more so. Try to actually make a point before being a douche it helps.
@@Tom-cj5wt you're clearly the one who's soft, if you cant handle cheater in mvm just play boot camp lmao. But i know that playing with beginners will make you mad because you're a toxic tryharder. Also, why do we tolerate cheaters in mvm and not in casual ? Because bots dont have feelings, while real player can sustain the game economy if they fing the game pleasing.
Never thought I’d hear about morals in a TF2 video, really interesting and the sort of stuff I really like. Great video and nice editing. Script had to be the best part for me man, so engaging.
Two Pyros fighting to airblast a bomb-carrying robot around while a gang war rages on in the background is the most TF2 thing I've heard about in awhile.
For the past several years I've somehow dodged a good portion of all this and my mind is blown. I didn't do anything super invested and grindy, only 61 tours in two city, but I never met a pyro like Basil. And I haven't actually had a toxic player in a while that kicks people that don't deserve it either. No high tour kicking newbies either just leaving matches constantly but that is something I am used to in any game. Guess I'm just playing at the right times and dodging the mess in mvm.
Disclaimer: I don't cheat, MvM or otherwise, nor have I ever even seen an MvM cheater i think i commented as such on that post but if most of the lobby is fine with cheating then i don't really see the issue for MvM stuff. I will acknowledge the inflation of the drops as a negative thing to the economy but i'm at a point where I *really* don't care. Not only are we way past the point where that was anything vaguely resembling a good idea (and it was never a good idea but it got worse over time), almost nobody is ever going to cash out from that. You are gathering these items to accumulate items that you enjoy using or being seen wearing. That's it. And it's going to be a drop in the bucket that one more aussie sniper rifle exists or whatever in terms of how much that item will be worth when you're trading them for the burning team captain or whatever you want. Sure i'll votekick someone who tries to join and cheat and everyone wants to play the actual game, but if people just want to yank the slot machine again then I really don't have the energy to feel upset.
Agreed, If people want the loot, then roll the dice and give them. If you play MvM for the gameplay, THEN kicking them out seems to be more reasonable.
10:30 Yeah thats dumb. "Hey this guy has connections with our enemies. Lets annoy him! How can that possibly go wrong? Not like he will make us seem like shit compared to our enemies or something!"
This was an amazing video and got my subscribe finally. It's an amazing video, quick quips, such as "mount fiji on their fucking finger", "Having my patreon link in Mein Kampf", and even "I don't remember food battle being this intense" It keeps me hooked and so addicted to this story, especially whenI realized I was only 5 minutes in!! AMAZING!
This guy earned my subscription. Just found out who he was yesterday, after watching his tier lists I came here today and gained so much respect for him. I love how he articulates his points, and his editing style is class. I'm gonna be keeping an eye on you, thanks for renewing my interest in TF2.
I've voted for the option that stated kicking the cheaters every time they join game because I play MvM for the gameplay and for fun in free time and the loot at the end is just a bonus. I don't want my ticket to be used up by doing nothing and getting carried by a bot but I do want that loot at the end even tho it's not the primary objective but I want to earn that loot by playing good enough to finish the missions and have fun at the same time.
![[TF2] Cheating in MvM - The Case Continues](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VsTYx9GCA8E/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Cheating in MvM - The Case Continues](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Mvm's Most HATED Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JNUCMB174XA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] MvM's Hardest Achievement](/img/1.gif)
ok actually "two pyros fight over airblasting the bomb carrier while 4 aimbot snipers kill everything" as a competitive sport built within mvm would be hilarious and genuinely fun to watch.
There's amother comment thread just like this, they came up with the conecpt of Pyro Hockey. Spawn a stationary bomb carrying robot and see who can airblast it to the site with the least shots. Or have 2 teams, one tried to get the bomb in, the other defends.
@@mariustan9275 pyro griffball
@@theeeldeal8470 I wish more people remembered the griffball days, it could be the new dodgeball
I bet Basil is gonna win everymatch
@@charluu1929 he has hundreds of hours of airblast experience, he definitely will
There's something incredibly horrifying about seeing an aimbotter saying "F**K! IT'S HIM!" as if they were terrified out of their mind.
Lol
Well, we dont like basil because as weezy said, basil bad
And I even had that name before
But I never cheated
And even written on cyrilic
That was the best part of the video
Basil’s still the lesser of the two evils. At least he’s not hacking.
The reaction to Basil joining from the cheater being “FUCK ITS HIM” is some Batman shit, like Basil glided in and decked his friend in the face
he a little queer tho, will leave when confronted :)
@@kings5218 arent we all a little queer?
im gonna be honest i forgot if basil was in the right or wrong here its been 3 months since ive watched this video
@@remyrichardson8614 Go watch Weezy's recent video titled "MvM's Most INSANE Player" and find out for yourself. ;)
@@remyrichardson8614basil omori
@@EmbeddedWithin Lol that was my first thought too
I actually had a friend of mine who just recent got into Mvm that didn’t understand what tacobot or pizzabot were and basil or someone akin to him continuously air-blasted the bomb carrier out of bounds on the last wave and made them have to restart the wave countless times. It made my friend stop playing Mvm and TF2 as a whole only after his 5th tour because he just didn’t like the toxicity of the community and felt it was unwelcoming to new players.
ouch, my condolences to him for their idiocy
I feel the same way playing tf2. That’s why I advise the version in the Xbox orange box. Controls might be funky but people actually play right
@@Danblak08 as someone who never really played tf2, that would be my tf2 if i want to avoid, well, all of the bad shit from tf2 and having it in its purest form. Heck, the graphics arguably look better then on PC.
Prove me wrong
@@Danblak08 is that version even online anymore?
@@Mephiles343 yeah actually, played a match last night
schrodingers gas passer
"its skillless and i can easily outdamage it"
"its way too op and makes the game too easy"
Y'know, seeing Basil's griefing, it'd be kind of interesting to make "Pyro Golf" an unofficial new game mode: Spawn a stationary bomb-carrying bot near the bot's spawn, then try to airblast it to the hatch in the fewest puffs, perhaps with a custom plugin for different "clubs", i.e. airblast strengths. Hell, it might be good enough for custom golf maps!
That could be sorta fun. Sounds like it could be a bitch to get working, but it sounds more interesting than my idea, "Airblast Hockey"
@@Gammera2000 both sound pretty fun ngl
could be one team defends other tries to touchdown
@@Gammera2000
Among
@@moistisprobdead We play airhockey but with pyros
The match with basil and the cheaters just felt like angrier volleyball.
I went Airblast crazy in Upwards once and it turned into a full on airblast shove match.
Because volleyball was angry enough, they somehow made it angrier.
Ah yes. PASS Time 2
its a hot potato game but the potato is a 1000 degree celcius ball of steel
Actually.. two pyro's fighting to out airblast bots in or out of sight sounds like a pretty fun game mode.
Like rocket league but with people
dodgeball
that's just an advanced form of dogdeball
griff-ball with extra steps
@@zakay_ dodgebot
This is genuine comedy gold. It’s just a gang war in a game about shooting robots. I love this.
Mann vs machine more like
Mann vs Mann
@@ball.3841 You mean casual?/????///??? :nerd:
Except it can also completely devalue the entire community market
@@Dovah_Slayer 🤓 oh no the golden weapon will only be 80,000 USD and not 140,000!
@@omegaexists hey I worked hard for that golden medigun also it'll drop much more than that if this goes on for long enough everything will be worth CENTS to the ref
10:08
People underestimate how much time goes into gathering footage. Heck, some of my videos include clips from years before. A month is a relatively small amount of time when it comes to edited, well-made content.
oh hey its demoknight tf2
demoknight tf2
Off topic but seeing those robots' heads exploding like grapes at that timestamp was incredibly satisfying
demoknight MvM (tf2)
demoshite teaeff poo
I had completed 400 tours, and pyro was my 2nd most played class in mvm long before the gas pass came out. Long before tacobot was a thing, and after not playing for years I decided to come back and have some fun. I saw pyro had this new weapon, and I was having a blast using it. I had only completed a few tours before running into my first Tacobot, who saw me using pyro. He forced everyone in the pub to ragequit on the last wave, using an exploit to avoid being kicked. After that encounter I was blacklisted and harassed daily by tacobot members, they went after me extra hard because of my high tour count, if any member saw me they would ruin the game I was in. I was just trying to have some fun, first time playing tf2 in years, and now I don't play tf2 anymore...
wow that sucks ass, these bots are terrible
Kill
When i become high tour i will have so much fun do the same shit to toxic tours players since they only go againts the good persons so what if the good person becomes an asshole with the assholes but keeps chill with the newbies?
@@viket8316 I strictly only did pubs because I enjoyed helping the noobs to victory. Most new players are doing MvM for fun, so they usually ate the better players to group with. The majority of the higher tour players are egotistical assholes who only play MvM to farm. They are boring to play with, always the same boring grind, they never use off meta stats or do anything fun for challenge. There are lots of fun stuff to do in MvM but you'll never get the chance unless you get a private group of friends now, taco is in every server. They are basically the fun police... I miss the days of running dmg scouts, or money spies, demoknights, Pyro, solider with s normal rocket launcher lol... TF2 is a game, made for people to have fun. Taco and the other groups think MvM is a casino and they wanna pull the slot machine handle as many times as they can in a day. Having fun risks wasting time, so they are all just miserable cunts farming for pennies... lol these losers could make more money at minimum wage
@@viket8316 I mean yeah, we should all kick toxic tour players more but like, don't bother going too out of your way. They're wasting their time by putting loads of effort and care into MvM and their toxic opinions, don't worry that much about having to punish them all for it. They're already punishing themselves enough lmao.
The chad Boot Camp playing the game for its own sake vs the virgin Mann Up playing the game like it's a job
Some taco bot members actually do consider it a job, which considering the horrible return on investment is pretty sad
Yeah totally agree
I mostly play on wave 666 and it's fun as hell
Yeah I just play Boot Camp
I play Boot camp because I can't play mann up lol
@@hollowsid9623 I would have given that same reason before
But now that have some keys(by trading and profiting lol)
I couldn't lie to anyone
“You wouldn’t pirate a car!”
‘Well as it turns out, given the chance, I WOULD and I DID at the first opportunity’
-the funniest and most true advocation for online piracy.
ok, I would 100% pirate a car just so I can tell people that I made a working car using a 3dprinter. (I know it would cost me more to do this and a lot of time but the thought of pulling up in a 3dprinted 1981 DELOREAN DMC-12 is just too sweet maby if I win the lottery,)
Those commercials never made sense. Are you fucking serious? I would love a free car!
@@russtdragonking8004 some person has legit 3d-printed a car. i saw this a few years ago in an emkay video, but i think it was a ferrari. dont remember if it worked or was just a model
@@friendofp.24 they didn't make sense because people misquote the commercials. The original commercial said "you wouldn't steal a car". But then again, it's a different scenario. When you steal a car, you're taking someone's personal belongings and that means they likely just lose tens of thousands of dollars having to buy another. When you pirate a game, no money is lost.
@@jmvr Technically money is lost. As in you yourself don't need to spend any money to obtain the game. Which means the publisher lost (or didn't obtain) your money, which is a loss. If enough people to this, then a game earns no money.
An example for this is Demigod.
I still have a screen shot saved on my Steam profile, proudly as some award, of getting a Tacobot member angry and making it into the 'Must Kick List'. God, it feels good to see grown men cry over a PvE relaxing gamemode.
show me
I NEED IT!
WE NEED IT
were you cheating? then it'd be warranted lol
@@espressonoob We found one. Jk but I don't see the problem also the people in that community seem awful to talk to
@@espressonoob just as a small fyi tacobot members are people that put people on a "must kick" list bc of stuff like not pushing f4 to ready or for vote kicks, refusing to switch even if you are only good at the class you're on, and using the gas passer at all
and there was speculation that they were working on a bot that'd enter games, sit around, then leave at 1 second until wave starts so the count down starts over then another would join or be waiting
I remember it being on my first ever tour. I played Medic. I got kicked the last wave. I was so confused, my friend got me a ticket to play with him and for some reason I got kicked. “Why would they kick the player that was actively helping them???” I didn’t touch MVM ever after that
The greatest takeaway I have from this video has nothing to do with cheaters. Between tacobot, pizzabot, basil, and the orbiting community of trolls, haters, and outright toxic people, I'm just not going to play Mann Up MVM. Ever.
Same but with TF2 as a whole, honestly this video put me off the game
I'm not going to pick a side but if you have ever had any direct interaction, positive, neutral or negative with a cheater online, even in mere passing, your entire ancestral record, every single thing affected by every single human being in your ancestral tree should should be burnt to a crisp and sent in to a black hole where any information held would be unrecoverable for all eternity. Every single post-it scribble, every cave painting drawn by your direct ancestors 200 000 years ago, every single molecule of ground that has been in tangential contact with their footsteps, all should be purged to the most fundamental unrecoverable state possible.
To both you and the guy replying to you, these groups are a small and vocal part of the community
For every asshole there is hundreds of chill people who you'll enjoy playing with, I often have equal fun queueing with random people and queueing with friends
And if you give up because of the hackers and assholes, at the end of the day, they won
Yeah I was thinking about getting into TF2 but after seeing how many cheaters there are in the game, and the fact that the people trying to "counter" the cheaters are worse than the actual cheaters is just the icing on the "yeah fuck that" cake
"small part"
No they're not lmao, it's filled with assholes
I had basil in a game once where we had a pyro using gas. When basil started trolling, our pyro went full airblast and surprisingly easily countertrolled him. Literally no effort. And then Basil got on mic and started crying like a silly little baby, it was great. If you get your game locked down by assholes like this, simply do it back and they lose all of their power
@@Tom-cj5wt neckbeard
@@Tom-cj5wt Take a shower, go outside
@@Tom-cj5wt PFFT I don't play Pyro 😂
@@risa1467 It's still hard to believe that people can ego trip over video games
Damn how do people not see how op gas is. If you have at least 3 brain cells, you’d throw gas from a safe distance and not die immediately. You could probably beat all of two cities easily with a single gas pyro and an engie.
The funniest part about all of this is how a lot of the measures these "gangs" are using to fight each other are either indirect or relate to stopping the progression of the game itself. It's like a war that focuses entirely on who can fuck up or inconvenience the other party instead of murder or destruction.
You know, for that group trying to keep tf2 a pure game, they aren’t exactly pure themselves.
A bit obvious when one of the rules they live by is to kick newbies from their matches.
What’s the point of new players trying out the gamemode if you’re just going to be a ass to them. Plus, the game doesn’t keep a record for matches lost, and losing a match doesn’t affect item drops, so what’s the point of doing it? Because newbies might ruin the match and make you play longer? Given their lifestyle, i would assume they’d have a lot of time on their hands.
I can understand why they kick newbies
If you're gonna be doing something repetitively it's easier to do if at the end of each attempt you get a reward
You don't get a reward for restarting 50 times because one player isn't doing enough to help the team
It just becomes boring and frustrating at that point
And them having lots of time doesn't mean they want to be wasting it over and over again on a single round cause a noob can't play well
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 The hypocrisy comes in when they spend an equal amount of time stun-locking servers instead of just moving on themselves. They will gimp their own time getting drops to harass people they don't like. These people have no problem wasting their time to make sure certain people don't get to play.
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 Or just teach them to play the game? Hell are we just forgetting the part where they KICK PEOPLE LAST MINUTE SO THEY DONT GET ANY LOOT?
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 ... why not just get a full team at that point? they clearly have a big community, so why the hell would they not do full groups...
they don't actually kick new players, just ones who waste time and don't bother reading a guide or listening to anything they ask them to do in game. if ur gonna play a team game, listen to the team or queue with your own :p
Huge respects to you, for diving this deep into this deadly topic and spotlighting with valid reasonings. Great work!
Anyway, still, the mindset of the people who cheat in MVM is foreign to me. Regarding the gameplay of MVM as a chore, and decides to turn on a cheat to bypass the 'chores'?
MVM is like a mixture of an amusement park and a lottery. Some people are here for the gameplay, and some are here for the lottery. Some are for both. All of their mindsets are acceptable. It's their free will anyways. But if you end up going out of the way, taking an illegal path meantime harassing others, JUST to pull the lever of the lottery machine over and over... Then that's not something we can call an 'acceptable mindset'. That's nothing but a gambling addiction. And what do addicts needs? More gambles?
No, a medication.
Lets gooooooo
Hey look, a celebrity!
Playing devil's advocate pretty hard here, but if "some are here for the lottery" is a valid reason to play mvm, how is minimizing the time to do said thing contradictorily not okay? Isn't that policing the "right and wrong" way to have fun? Sure as the video establishes, there's an effect on the fun of those that come for the gameplay by cheating, but the very same could be said by just being good with sniper naturally, or using kritz'd beggars/brass beast/gas etc and effectively soloing waves anyways. Are you still "negatively impactingthe gameplay" of others doing that?
And moreso, theres definitely an argument to be made about that last few sentences, smells of "protecting you from yourself" type mindsets. Sure I'd agree there's definitely people that need protection from their own tendencies, but its a slippery slope into moral arbiter behavior and (more broadly outside the scope of tf2) authoritarianism and shouldn't just be taken at face value.
setting aside that devil's advocate rant though, yeah I'd probably kick a cheater in mvm.
Hello Dewill
Yeah or VACation from TF2
Yesterday I was playing my first mvm Mann up game, and mid game basil joined, and I was worried the guy was going to do some trolling, but instead played the game like normal. No trolling, just playing soldier and killing the bots.
the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist
also basil based
Wait what
Ye he's pretty chill in mvm, he only griefs if you are a cheater or a cheater supporter
@@wvcky or theres one in your lobby
Not sure if it was the real Basil I played with a while ago, but he had 1,500 tours. Either way, very chill guy, he got in, did his thing, and we conplete the game. Neither him nor anyone else mentioned my low tour count so there's that I guess.
Imagine from the robots' perspective, they're like: "Why the fuck are the humans arguing with each other, shouldn't they be working together to fight against us?"
The robots would probably get even more confused when they realize that one of the humans is one of them, too!
Grey Mann(with binoculars): what the hell is going there? Also it seems they got there own robots.
"They're gonna kill themselves, wanna watch?"
"...yea alright"
@@biraptor6205 then the robots proceed to sit at their spawn, with large cups of oil and nuts and bolts in popcorn bags as they see how shit goes downhill
I think they are thinking "beep boop beep"
"Is it okay to cheat in PvE?"
Can you do it without affecting players that have no interest in cheating? Then do whatever, it's a perfect crime.
My main issue would be going into solo que and finding that someone cheats, effectively robbing you of the fun by destroying the difficulty in clearly unintended ways.
Trolling by people like Basil is worse than that crap, tho. If you enter a game with the explicit purpose of ruining other people's fun, there's no redemption.
TF2 has achievements built around ruining other people's fun. The scorch shot exists. TF2 is a sociopath's game, and I adore it for that.
@@Mightylcanis Yeah but that's in pvp where the objective is to screw with your enemy. The basil stuff is screwing with your teammates
I think cheating in mvm is fine If everyone is okay with it, but it's selfish to cheat if people on your team don't want you to
@@minorsalaam I mean for gameplay's sake I mostly agree with you. But actually affecting the economy/getting real steam money in an unintended way is sketchy.
Like imagine cheating for an Australium, and using that money to buy other games on steam. If cheating is against TF2/steam tos could that be literal fraud or something?
@@frazfrazfrazfraz i don't know, to me a mvm cheater is the same as a bot that opens your lootboxs's for you. All I see mvm as is a slot machine that takes a long time, that's why I'm okay with it.
I don't even play TF2 currently and never MvM, but the pizza vs. taco rivalry is honestly hilarious. If you choose a side, you choose your favorite kind of toxic:
Vitriolic elitists or cheaters.
That this is even a debate just shows how much worse than regular elitists one of the sides is.
I have no problem with cheatin in MVM but in pvp thats a whole different story
Lmao 19:31 absolutely KILLED me. good shit as usual Weezy
HE FOOLED EVERYONE!
Ok That Joke Was Funny
That was a joke of *Absolute* *Legends*
Just a gentle reminder, MVM has always been a cesspit of negativity, and a magnet for AFK hacking snipers. Valve is physically incapable of moderating their communities and have allowed the problems here to fester from day one. The current state of MVM isn't New. It's simply Worse.
Which is a shame because it is a really neat idea that was executed somewhat poorly and then handled terribly from that point onwards much like everything in tf2 making it into said cesspool that you mentioned.
Its a tradeoff, either you have a company that doesn't do anything and allows the community do what ever they want, or no modding allowd.
Yeah, I just recently had someone start the match by bragging about how he was giving himself a handicap by playing with a drawing tablet, and about how he has played boot camp every day for 2 years. Then proceeded to ragequit a BOOT CAMP easy map, because me and a friend were dicking about with non-meta weapons, and wouldn't change when he told us to. MVM tryhards are a rare bunch.
@@Lycanboy those guys somehow turn coop games into a dictatorship then get angry no one is cooperating with them.
I come back to watch this quite often because it is simply one of the best composed videos I have ever seen. I haven't even played tf2 in years.
Same
"Cheats in single-player are okay and hilarious, but cheats in multi-player are horrendous and cowardice."
What does this comment mean
@@tigui555 its fine to cheat in singleplayer
@@tigui555 I think it means that even if you're teaming up with other players, it's frowned upon to fight AI in multiplayer, even though it's not harming real players? I find it weird because it still ruins some people's experience :/
“Welcome to Team Fortress 2; after 9 years of development, hopefully it will be worth the wait. Have fun!”
mind the bots
I think both sides are pretty apprehensible but the toxicity of high tier tacobots is definitely worse than dealing with players who cheat at pve
Sick of people using toxicity when they mean abusive
I'd rather have a cheater simply ruin my fun by finishing the game quicker, than have a kid ruin my GAME by completely stopping it
Says a lot about your commitment to making a video as in-depth as possible that you willingly signed yourself up to deal with Tacobot's nonsense just so you could get your footage for the video. Really enjoyable and informative as always, thanks for covering a complicated topic as fully as you did, and great editing as usual!
Howdy Shayy!
@@Tom-cj5wt neckbeard
@@Tom-cj5wt that's a nice argument senator, how about you back it up with a source?
@Shayy HIS SOURCE IS HE MADE IT THE FUCK UP
@@ShayyTV Supposedly some of basils friends are in the comment section trying to say it wasn't him I'm saying supposedly because the supposed "friends" keep having their comment with the link to his account and their supposed connection deleted so it's in the air on if they are lying out their ass.
Even assuming they are lying it's not exactly out the the possibility for it to be a actor and regardless of whether it is or not if this is how basil acts in regards to gameplay (trolling entire lobbies because he dislikes one individual, ruining the experience for 4 other people) then yeah he's a scum bag regardless of the one in the video being a fake.
honest to god, the few pizzabots I met on mvm were the nicest players ive seen, they gave free tickets for a tour to a low tour fellow that was playing with us
Yeah I like when experienced players help newbies play the game and have fun and that was a kind gesture
When Pizzbot cheaters in MvM are nicer then TacoBot, you know which one gets supported and rooted for, the non douchebags.
@@heavyweaponsguy6284 while yes pizza bot is lowering value of drops there are still nice at most and do help newbies and while tacobot became more mellow they are still toxic and some holding games hostage like basil
@@gabrielebasa4292 and they still have the ape tag even if most of the tags are gone except cheater/supports cheater or voting tags.
I personally don't cheat in mvm and as a pizzabot i got a tacobot out of the game cuz he was calling everyone apes.
I absolutely love this video. Not only does it properly bring up both sides, it talks about how they can not only be toxic on both ends, and how one cannot really be greater than another. It then talks in favor of both sides, just to later bring in reasons why the other could be wrong, to truly give you with a shitton of information just in the end to tell you to wash your damn foreskin. (and make your own opinion ig)
I was subject to Basil one day
Then
*Oregano joined the game*
as he proceeded to hack the game, *hack*, as basil proceeded to have a case of 99999 ping level rubberbanding
Oregano is the greatest anti troll in all of thyme
Holy crap that's the best gaming move I've ever heard in my life.
Oh man I hope that was legit, that sounds hilarious.
what a chad
I would clove to see that in person.
“All of thyme.” Gave me a good chuckle
"The TF2 community is the best and most friendly community in all gaming"
Also TF2 community:
Techinally TF2 MVM community, it like lumping casual players with VSH players.
@@Subject_Keter xDDD
@@smugplush Technically L4D2 is a dead game already? But if we're talking dead in terms of player counts then maybe at the dying stages?
@@Subject_Keter tf2 mann up, bootcamp is quite friendly
Honestly you have to learn to shrug your shoulders...
I jumped into a Two Cities match and we had a heavy cheating. Was the first time I had actually seen a cheater in MvM from what I remember. We win and he gets a professional killstreak minigun kit. I was coping for hours.
Personally I play MVM for the experience of cooperative gameplay, it brings me enjoyment to help other people in game and real life (which is why I main Medic). having an "auto win" with cheaters is not something I enjoy to be with as it lessens the cooperation being experienced. I tend to server switch if the pyro is overusing Mouse 2 or when I encounter a cheater (has not happened yet). I'm not one to play "this side, that side" and prefer to avoid the drama altogether, but after what was shown in this informative video...I still take no sides and continue my playstyle, but I got some nice info and insight which is never bad in my opinion
Hehe SMG is mini-mini-gun
I think this video is a good prologue to talking about "playing for fun" and "playing for the gamemode and challenge", because believe it or not, not everybody plays for loot or is a gambling addict.
A lot of folks who ticket recycle, play bootcamp, community mvm and occasionally Mann up, play for fun and challenge, hence why some community mvm missions are hard af.
So I am curious if Weezy would make a video, that you don't have to farm loot to have fun in mvm
I too enjoy extremely difficult community missions :D so much variety and creativity to enjoy
i play for both, the game is fun and having the potential for the funny shiny weapon at the end is fun. neither on their own would interest me that much, i don't open crates often at all
To be honest I’ve put 50+ hours in MVM and only done boot camp
Believe it or not, besides how much i like this channel, i barely play MVM, and when I do i only play 666 and never deviate. I like the challenge and the fun you can get with full strangers
@@risa1467 You can play for fun and still tryhard in MvM.
They aren't really exclusive
That Mien Kampf joke actually killed me 💀
While everything is case by case, this is my general opinion on cheating in video games
1. Single player games: go nuts mate
2. Multi-player co-op: as long as the other teammates are cool with it, you're good
3. Multi-player PvP: don't do it unless you're playing against other cheaters
Or if it's hvh.
@@Blumoon09 That falls under 3
I agree especially if the person is a good cheater trying to stop the bad cheaters
"Unless against other cheaters" ya no that's a lame excuse. Every time I see someone who does that they are really generous with it or just do so without any other cheaters. I remember playing CS and having the enemy team toggle because they were loosing justifying it by saying I was cheating.
@@Blumoon09 what’s hvh?
As a person who owns one of the more expensive Australiums, I don't give a shit if the value goes down. In Payday 2 they made it so everybody can get a free skin every day and the value of my collection went down by hundreds of dollars, but I was happy. I just got to get more skins. They were so common in fact I could just give them away to new players and it made their day. Anybody who only likes owning things because it's worth more than other peoples things, or invests in cosmetics for a decade old game with the purpose of making money is an idiot. Besides, the more people spend on mvm tickets the more valve cares about the gamemode/game. Might not make a huge difference but it can't really hurt.
In my honest opinion if the value of the weapon goes down that's a good thing because you'll never sell it at such high prices anyway it's great when you don't have to pay $70 for some golden pixels that make you think your good at the game
The pyro airblast thing could actually be a fun idea where you have to fight robots while a team member is actively trying to sabotage your team
Mvm amungus edition
@@mihaimiha1727wouldnt work, mvm maps are too open, the impostor would never get kills
Apologies for the jarring skip at 5:39
I originally called Basil a no-no word (wasn't a slur) and the RUclips algorithm picked it up, so I had to edit it out to prevent losing monetization and a 90% viewership (yes, it was that bad). The response to this video has been incredible and I appreciate it a ton
Wasn't the algorithm always wack for the past 6 years?
just so you know the word he's talking about, the original video without the cut said: "so basil is.. he's kind of a cunt"
this is because youtube calls the word "cunt" a reason to completely destroy any and all monetization of an entire video, on the same level as the N-word.
I gotta say its been a while since I played tf2 and I only played Man vs Machine a couple of times, but when I did I found it fun. I think I always just played the casual version, but even if I was playing man up mode where it looks like you get rewards I would still not condone it at least when I am in the lobby. Personally even if I get loot as a reward in a video game I am against cheating to get it. I don't really care what others do as long as it doesn't affect me. At least with the gasoline can if it's part of the game I might be a little upset, but I would be fine with it because its part of the game and available to anyone. I know going into a game that could be something people use, and if I don't like it I would get upset at valve not the players. I genuinely enjoyed the game mode and by cheating they would be taking away my ability to play it through means that I didn't sign up for when playing it. By cheating unless they advertise that it will be happening I would be upset because I went in expecting an experience and had it taken away unilaterally without my consent thereby wasting my time. When someone cheats like this knowing there is other real people in the lobby that did not agree with it tells me they are selfish and don't think of the other players as real human beings deserving of respect. In regards to how people should act I don't see the difference between video games and an actual real life sport. Treat the people you are playing with like you would if you were on the court playing basketball or out in the field playing football.
Dang I guess you could say the algorithm is also a bit of a -
which no-no word
Alright, the idea of having two groups of pyros in which one is trying to airblast a bomb into the other teams side sounds like a pretty fun game mode.
Volleyball, basically. It could be called Mumblebomb.
MannTenis would be a smash hit
The analogy of having a Patreon link in Mein Kampf reminded me of the fact that Henry Ford is reputedly the only American not only mentioned by name but complimented in that exact book.
Wasnt he a eugenicicst or something?
@@haotatyanalot of wealthy people supported hitler because the economic down turn made the public discontent and they were stsrting to look to the rich as blame. The far right would let the rich maintain power if the world is going extremist thats the horse they back. Thats why we see them funding far right and right wing think tanks currently.
"shooting more red lines than a collage of lost memes on the virtual boy" a line that absolutely sent me. keep it up my guy
I will say right now I said no, but my reasoning is, I want to play MVM to enjoy a game that encourages teamwork, with the loot also being part of a bonus of it, it's like a reward for working together and getting along when you complete a mission or tour.
My other reasoning, is that I feel that with the bots, I agree that it is boring, but it also takes away from someone else being able to fit that slot. For example, if a cheater joins, I'm going to kick them, since that cheater and probably bots or set of cheaters, take those slots away from legitimate players or even new players.
Thing about me is that I like teaching new players the mechanics of tours like Two Cities, and for a cheater/bot to take that slot away from a potentially new player, I dislike the idea of that happening.
Absolutely well said, my thoughts exactly
Ma man, you're a real one
Is that why the lower tier tours have an infinite wait time? I just want a bloody bot killer weapon. I don't know why, but I do.
@@metallord6960 I believe that's due to less players or something, since Two Cities are most popular, due to the Australium drops being directly said (and the expert one does too, it just doesn't say), which makes those two maps the most popular, since Australiums are the most sought after items.
@@metallord6960 They have extremely low player counts because the missions tied to those specific botkillers are pathetically easy and the drops are practically worthless
Pizzabot vs. Tacobot is just the irl version of Red vs. Blu.
20:25
This is actually why Strange weapons have lost all of their prestige, too. People just do not believe you anymore when they see that you own a weapon wit 1 million kills. Not when they can boot up an IDLE server with AFK players who farm their strange knives.
There's a strange filter that restricts kills to only those made on competitive matches, but dead gamemode so yeah.
I’m worried that I’ll be playing the game for years, getting my Strange Scattergun from the fresh-out-the-box stage to Hale’s Own+ with over 100,000 kills, only for some guy on a casual server to be like “Nice kills. I bet you farmed every single one on an idle server.”
the only time I ever did that, was with jarate.
But.. It would have taken AGES to get Hales own jar of piss.
@@squeegel3904 not if you asked him for it
@@snaek2594 LOL underrated comment
The problem I have with the bots in mvm is simple.
If I wanted to watch two cheaters or bots go at each other, I'd just queue for casual.
But bots dont attack each other
@@horeyshio_garcia he meant the mvm robots
7:21 no one talking about the “out blow the other man” 🤨
first time i tried out a mann up tour i was kicked for never completing a mann up tour prior, i can see how much more toxic the mann up community is beyond my first experience.
"you don't have any tours completed, so let's keep it that way"
I really enjoyed this video, it's a pretty interesting topic I'd never really considered a lot about. Hearing about this monkey war between tacobot and pizzabot was really funny too.
My philosophy on cheaters in MvM does still stick to the mindset that it ruins the fun. For me, I like Mann Up because of that inherent combination of gambling and just normal gameplay. I don't do it enough for it to have a big impact on my wallet, so I like adding that element of gambling to a gamemode that is, also, inherently fun. So when there's a cheater on the team who's cleaning house and leaving me with nothing to really do, with no real strategy or comradery, I am inclined to kick them and leave room for real players. Even then, though, I make sure to talk to the rest of the people in the lobby to see what THEY wanna do, and then we go from there. So, if I were to hypothetically queue into a server with 4 bots, I'd probably just requeue, no harm no foul, and if the majority of players wants to keep a lone cheater we have, I'll either just shrug my shoulders and stick around, or requeue, depending on how I feel that day.
You can also argue that this same mindset could be applied to gas passer and kritz demos and whatnot, though I think the inherent difference of them using tools directly in the game is something that affects my decision making. It's a part of the game's design and thus can be called strategy, so even if this also bores me, I'd feel much less morally correct in kicking them. Not to mention I've seen cheaters carry even better than folk using those strats so, y'know
I think it's an interesting topic to think about more than people do normally, but ultimately my opinion is the same as before, if not strengthened by some of your arguments towards the end of the video. Great scripting though, I really enjoy watching this channel!
that's my stance more or less. majority rule of the lobby. most don't want it get em out, most are ok with it i'll requeue or take the free mission depending on my mood
Agreed, it ruins the fun that's all the reason you need. But also people should just follow the rules and not pick and choose
engine
too long didn't read
Sinces 2013 they doing thats ! +1
PERSONALLY, cheating was a bit of a complicated thing to discuss when it was in MVM but i stand in my point of "if i earned my item without working so hard on it, then the item is pointless". cause i cherish all the important items i got and when i look at them, i always remember the stuggles i experience just to get them. even for an item i brought in store cause it all came from the sweat i experience at work
plus ngl that pyro airblast sounds like a fun gamemode like the dodgeball
Which one tells more about society?:
Entire history of humankind
Or
Whatever Basil is doing
whatever basil is doing. thats no sarcasm from me.
Based gigachad basil
Basil is quite the fella. He's most enigmatic for sure.
0:00 - Intro
0:47 - Cheating in MvM
3:17 - Pizzabot
5:31 - Basil
8:38 - Tacobot
11:13 - Can Cheating be Okay in MvM?
16:16 - Reasons People don't like Cheating
18:19 - Stolen Valor
22:27 - deflation
26:00 - outro
Aight cool
3:09 coder here, actual anti-cheat systems often are invasive, and need to be root kitted because they're stuck in your system. The anti-cheat, and even DRM can be used to effectively help bypass a fire wall, and spread malicious code into one's computer. Anti-cheat is the biggest lawsuit bringer, and that being said most companies get away with it because most people don't know this.
so in short, its a virus pretty much? sounds about corporate.
actual anti cheat is also good, despite what people who bitch about kernal access think.
@@akoyash9964 1. I cheat in games and let me tell you; it doesn't work as well now a days.
2. kernal level access in the past has made programs crash and lead to lawsuits, as thus why companies stopped for a while.
3. said anti-cheat often make it easier to hack into your computer, you can get a virus off of github to hack into someone's phone if the gacha game has anti-cheat.
4. over 90% of anti-cheat that's kernal level is only meant to protect their profits, NOT deal wirh actual hackers.
5. you can easily build a python script to scan for external values and snipe a target.
6. Ive cheated while playing these kernal level anti-cheat and if you can crack the anti cheat as in bypass security on the anti-cheat itself, you can basically turn off the anti-cheat if you're willing to actually cheat the system.
7, Now server side anti-cheat is what companies should use but that would require hiring actual talented coders, the fact H-game companies are the only ones willing to do server side anti-cheat is funny as hell.
i would still be overjoyed to see even a serverside anticheat that does barely anything than knowing theres zero anticheat or other efforts made by devs to stop cheating
@@unfunnycesium server side anti cheat does more than nothing; it's just that it would cost the devs more money to use a server side one.
The other problem about kernal level anti-cheat is the bad actors that would want to or know enough people play x game like genshin impact will already have the anti-cheat cracked where it's "working" while the script kiddies who barely do anything would be dealt with sure.
I know more and more people that are becoming anti-kernal level anti-cheat because they had their bank accounts hit thanks to an anti-cheat software leaving their computer valun.
"As with any youtuber presented with cancer..."
I DEADASS could not predict how that sentence was gonna end! Most engaged I've been on youtube in YEARS!
You briefly showed the Smash tournament that Nintendo shut down while complaining about ToS stuff.
That wasn't simply a case of ToS stuff. The tournament in question was an online-only tournament for Melee and Ultimate. They had no specific issues with the Ultimate side, but the Melee side had issues several layers deep.
Melee doesn't have online, so an online tournament requires a mod. Nintendo disapproves of mods, but this on its own isn't enough for them to get the lawyers in unless they are charging money for the mod or the mod makes it to headlines. However, this particular mod REQUIRED use of an emulator and could not be used with actual hardware - emulators being another area that Nintendo strongly disapproves but won't quite get them to use their lawyers so long as there are no headlines - but there is yet another catch, the emulators the mod is compatible with are NOT compatible with disk drives and cannot run Melee from a disk - using them requires copying Melee from the disk to the internal memory of the computer the emulator is on, and THAT is where the issue arises, because in Nintendo's view (and indeed, under Japan's anti-piracy laws) that constitutes piracy - piracy required to participate in the tournament.
So their lawyers sent the organisers of the tournament a warning that they would be getting a Cease and Desist notice restricting their ability to stream or upload the tournament sent to them if they went ahead with what they were planning ... and the tournament organisers basically responed with "F U", and otherwise ignored Nintendo. At that point Nintendo's lawyers went ahead and sent them the Cease and Desist order covering both Melee and Ultimate because the tournament organisers refused to engage with them while acting in a manner that most lawyers would consider "bad faith" ... while also being incredibly rude. It should, of course, also be noted that the tournament organiser in question was for profit, and stood to make quite a bit of money from the tournament.
I just think cheating in MVM removes the value behind finally achieving those weapons. It removes its status. I know a lot of people probably don't care about that but I always thought it made the game more fun, I love mvm and the weapons show the dedication to that gamemode.
That was incredibly brave of Weezy to both not condemn Basil, but also explain that (at least in Basil's eyes) his intentions are good. Both Tacobot and Pizzabot think they're right, but both sides fail to acknowledge the nuance of the situation in the same way that people who think all cheating is always bad do. At the end of the day, it comes down to a lack of empathy and an inability to understand others that leads to all this toxicity and infighting.
The REALLY interesting part of all this, is that it shows the biases and selfishness both sides have. If Tacobot ACTUALLY wanted to get rid of Pizzabot, they'd go to Valve and make them realize there's a community of people abusing external programs in their game. If Pizzabot ACTUALLY wanted to get rid of Tacobot, they'd go to Valve and make them realize there's a community of people bullying and harassing users in their game.
Both groups CLEARLY have a big enough community to get Valve's attention, but they're both so stubborn and blind they'd rather just stick to petty harassment that will never end instead of permanently solving the issue. Remember how Weezy said if all cheaters disappeared tonight, a new batch would show up tomorrow? Well that applies to "bad players" and toxic scumbags too. By doing nothing but kicking new players or harassing Tacobot/Pizzabot, both sides will just be stuck in an infinite, never ending battle with a much simpler, faster solution, that they both choose to ignore because they both genuinely think what they're already doing is right, when in reality, both sides are acting petty and stupid.
Assuming that Valve still remembers TF2 exists outside the trading scene
Pointing this out then makes you wonder whether they just don't realize this or do know this to be the case but simply just choose not to act on it, which in that case then opens an entirely new can of worms of "well if they want to get rid of the other for good, and know they potentially can, how come they won't?" That sounds more like paranoid rambling than anything else, but them choosing to instead directly target each other the way they do already not because they are too blind or stupid to realize their opportunity, but simply because they enjoy harassing each other and use that to get their kicks is crazy to think about but at the same time not at all surprising. Hell, the only reason why pizzabot exists is because of tacobot, so them just wanting to oppose each other and shit talk each other to validate their beliefs and get some fun out of it isn't entirely out the question.
@@davidhong1934 This. They can't just 'go to Valve', because Valve barely has the resources and attention devoted to TF2 for the devs to put together hat crates, let alone address a pressing issue affecting the game's most played game mode, let alone listen to two community groups bitch at each other about one of the less-played game modes.
As futile as it is, the verbal mud-slinging and game-ruining is... the only real tactics either of them have, since the arbiter, Valve, isn't paying any attention.
I’m friends with Basil on Steam, and he posted that he was not in this video. He stated that it was Weezy’s friend who had impersonated him for the sake of the video. Basil is a very kind person, and I find it very insulting that they would do this to him. Hell, his tour count isn’t correct and they couldn’t even bother to copy his loadout lol but Basil is in the process of investigating the issue further and I hope he’s able to find some answers.
@@kawaii.jarate would it not be possible basil just has impersonators to begin with? he seems rather notorious in this section and it seems likely ppl would just impersonate him to instill fear into these cheaters for some laughs
This is actually a really interesting video even though I've never played MvM. You see, there is a MMORPG called "Realm of the Mad God" which has a similar problem with cheaters. The game has no PvP elements whatsoever, so many of the points brought up in this video apply to it. The non-action of the devs has lead to large parts of the player base cheating and I'd say well over half of the player base accepting cheating or at the very least not actively condemning it.
I remember playing that game a while back. The hubs were nothing but bots most likely advertising scams. I have not played that game in years because of the massive roadblock between F2Ps and people with money.
@@pepperonipizza8200 Yeah, the spam bots are a problem that has been around for years and years. It's a shame, since it's one of the first things a new player sees and gives them a bad impression. The F2P vs P2P problem isn't really that bad in my personal opinion, since it's not directly P2W. Sure it has its P2W elements, but in a game like rotmg you're going to need to know how to play in order not to die.
@@pepperonipizza8200 That was a massive issue in the past, but it got (kinda) fixed in the recent years. The most P2W feature (pets) that at max level made the game feel like you're playing on easy mode, got nerfed to shit, and grind to get them without paying also got lowered a lot. Also now you can't buy endgame weapons for real life money like you could 5 years ago. You can still buy some "in theory P2W stuff" for money, but they're only QoL and don't impact your overall performance whatsover (something like TF2's backpacks). Also you can get those QoL stuff for free (unlike TF2's backpacks).
God I need to get back into that game. It was so fun
@@wowisntitanamazinglyamazin9550 The steam reviews for that game are generally negative, so I'm a bit wary of that.
I got to say it is absolutely shocking how well wirtten this video is. You do a fantastic job conveying the nuance of a really divisive topic, and the jokes are top notch. Great vid!
"Can we foster a community without toxicity as one of its foundational principles?"
Not as long as money is involved.
Based decommodification enjoyer
Furry.
Money ruins everything.
Based.
disgusting furry
A pyro blast off mid mvm match has to be the most interesting concept I've seen. Like playing rocket league while the rest of your team tries to not die lol.
About the Basil thing here’s a game mode idea
Pyro Hockey
6 Pyros with infinite ammo on each team with flamethrowers that can only airblast. No other weapons
Airblast has a 3 second cooldown
It’s First to 5 goals
Blu Gets robot player models
The goals are pits to knock the bomb into
5 bombs waiting to be spawned
4 Control points are used for blue goals(Red needs to defend that).(Bomb carriers are The Gate bots.
The bombs are held by scouts programmed to move randomly and can be pushed by any team’s airblast.
Red’s Goal(What blu defends) as the Coaltown Pitfall
Note: When the Blu team scores the bomb will be teleported into the center when it can move again.
Weezy : "Wash your foreskin"
americans : *sweating*
“The objective: Outblow the other man”
Fun times on Decoy, huh?
That air blasting thing seems like a lot of fun,it could be like a seperate game mode
The Basil cheater duel was entertainment I was not expecting from this video topic
Highlight of the video
True that shit was way more funny than it needed to be. Interestingly, I've 250 tours and almost exclusively cheat but I've never run into basil. I think he probably doesn't play much 2C.
I'm personally against cheating in MvM because I'm one of those "Philosophically consistent" people. My fun in MvM is relaxing and just shooting braindead robots while I enjoy the power-creep. The loot is a nice bonus every now and then but generally, I get 4 tickets, and just play 3 of the 4 2-cities missions in Mann Up for a while. When I get bored of MvM I finish it up and rinse repeat sometime later. The main problem with cheating for me is it takes away the gameplay from ME. Cheating in a PvE mode isn't something I'm "against" per se, but it's not something I would like to do. I enjoy the challenges of dealing with newer players plus I like seeing if I can break 300k damage on heavy again.
Yeah, I don't know why but at 17:58 he seems to not care that cheaters make the game boring for philosophically consistent players like you.
Again. Thats a feeling of preference and everything, as bad as it makes you feel that argument isn't enough to condemn the cheater. Something Something Gas passer moment
@@redline841 that's just goes to show that Explode on Ignite was a mistake more than anything
@@luigifan4585 The truth here is that your stance on it doesn't matter. It's valves fault and always has been. Explode on ignite shouldn't have been added for balance reasons, and there should be actual anti-cheat functionality to prevent situations like this from occurring. These would not even be discussion topics if valve did anything for TF2 nowadays, but since the game is largely abandoned except for the obscene amount of money Valve makes from lootboxes and MVM tickets these will likely never be fixed. It's a good thing an anti-cheat update is a possibility right now, but all the stupid shit that happened could have largely been avoided if Valve employees weren't silently punished for working on TF2.
I don't understand people not liking new players. Sure, they may need time to learn how to be effective, however if these guys who have plenty of tours under their belt, took some time to teach and give advice, then these players may actually be more of an asset than a hindrance. The problem is, at least in my experience, is that other people don't want to take the time to inform others on how to improve. Imagine having a puppy, but not wanting to waste time potty training it, and then getting mad when it shits all over the floor.
Where was I going with that analogy?
“Outblow the other man”
Sounds like a Friday night with the Homies if you ask me🤷🏻♂️
(I play on Bootcamp because I know Mann up is just a money waster.)
There are instances where I met cheaters in Bootcamp, they generally ruin the whole point of winning by skill of the team (or at least just two players). I play to get good results because it's fun to see how far I can push a certain class or a weapon. Having bad players on team just means I need to try harder to win (if it is winnable). Cheaters on other hand just make playing on the server almost completely pointless and they waste my time (especially when I find out they are cheating in the middle of the whole game).
That’s my view on cheaters in mvm (or atleast in Bootcamp).
If you only notice someone's cheating mid-game, maybe their cheating is a big help
@@NerdyCatCoffeeee 1st: Last time it was wave 666, I highly doubt he'd be able to take on the tanks on his own (I did most of the tank dmg before I noticed him cheating) . And I've been playing that wave for long enough to see we'd be fine without him.
2nd: Even if he'd be a good help, it's the type of help I wouldn't desire in any of "bad team" situations.
I'd rather have a cheater than deadweight sometimes. Yeah its satisfying to carry but its only 6 people, I can do so much. Then again I join MvM to relax and frag, not carry like in Casual
@@unknown_aberration You're correct about the tanks, it's the only reason wave 666 isn't solo-able because there's literally no way to get enough DPS out of 1 person.
Players will always optimise the fun out of a game if they can
This is the first tf2 video I have seen in over a decade.
And damn was it good
NGL, seeing Basil (a kind of familiar name for someone with this pfp btw) and a cheater fight by spamming M2 was like an epic battle of side antagonists who most people don't like that much, but it's still entertaining to watch.
At one side we have a troll that just wants to fuck around
At the other side, a cheater (not that bad in a coop gamemode, but still, it mostly depends in the situation the cheater is in)
The battle of the ages... it actually would be nice to have a custom mvm gamemode like this, robots have a timer to die, two players go against each other with infinite ammo and airblast only (like in that one airblast dodgeball mode to give an example, idk)
he is an omori fan, he got all of the achievements in omori, i checked his profile
@@KR-wl5yd so this is the actual reason Aubrey bullied him, because he commited a little trolling just before she finishes her tour
Hey Weezy I hope your day is good. I think you should do another teir list about sub-classes like trolldier, fat scout, gun spy, battle medic, hoovie, demoknight, boxing heavy, ext... it would be cool to see how you would say how useful each one is.
That...actually sounds really fun.
a video in detail about the translation of normal play subclasses to mvm would be really cool!
I would love to see an SFM of a cheater war with the MVM mode
Honey, wake up! Another mvm video is up!
"the validity of cheating as a concept shouldn't be contingent on the recipient's personal enjoyment"
actually i'd say that's the ONLY thing that should determine whether or not cheating is acceptable, the concept of ruining another player's sense of fun or accomplishment applies to all of the points you listed as potentially valid complaints
He unfortunately lost a lot of credibility for me with that. That line alone cemented the fact that, regardless of the arguments he’s putting forward, his agenda is purely selfish, even if unintentionally so.
And sure, you could make the anemic argument that everyone is selfish because everyone wants to have fun, but not everyone is willing to do that at other peoples expense nor at the expense of the game’s integrity.
Hell, I would even say cheating in solo depends entirely on how the game was designed and meant to be played. Is it a victimless crime? Sure, so there’s really no point in condemning it. But you’re still going against the developers’ wishes and are still delegitimizing the experience, so I would not say that it’s ‘okay’. I’d sooner say people are apathetic about it at best since no one but cheaters and people who’ve never experienced their impact would ever even remotely talk about it positively.
This isn’t including cheaters who do it purely to grief. Regardless of if you’re doing it to vent frustration or because you find it funny, you’ve got sociopathic tendencies. I’d say ‘reflect on it’, but empathetically challenged folk will sooner dismiss the notion or laugh at it because they’re incapable or just unwilling to self-criticize.
"The objective?"
"Outblow the other man."
CONTEXT!
the only reason I'm against cheating, is because I want to have fun while doing it. This is the reason why I promote an anti-bot client. The bots ruin the experience, throw fun out of the equation, and give everyone a bad time
But if you only care about they gameplay, why play Mann up? If you don't and you're only talking about boot camp I agree.
@@jacehackworth6413 The thing is I'm saying this from a casual perspective. Not MVM
@@gl1tchbug ok, on that there is no argument.
Personally I'd make the PvE be allowed to have bots but the anti chat takes note of these bots so it can kill the ones in PvP. Hackers get a safe haven to do what they want and it also helps us dealing with people who leave the plantation.
@@jacehackworth6413 Why should you only be restricted to boot camp when playing MVM if you don't want to be queued with cheaters though? What kind of line of reasoning are you on?
Dude, you absolutely just created a new game mode for Valve with that Basil vs. Cheaters bout.
It wasn't even the real Basil. Weezy had one of his friends impersonate him for whatever reason.
@@arslors Basil really isn't that hard a name to come up with given it's an actual thing rather than a made up word, so unless there's evidence of Weezy admitting to it, I'm going to have to say it was a coincidence.
@@arslors Screenshot or it didn't happen.
“The objective, outblow the other man” -Weezy tf2
The blue's snipers are also aimbot and I can't see them kicking it, so it's okay to keep the red's aimbots
I mean they don't have explosive headshots. Heck, they can't headshot either.
@@mariustan9275 they can't?
@@leonel392 Yeah. They can't headshot. Maybe stand next to some robot snipers and see if you die.
@@mariustan9275 ok, I'll try it next time in boot camp
I'm definitely on the side of "read the room" in terms of cheaters. I also think we really should take people's personal feelings into account, it's very important for some players to be engaged in PvE and I get it, I'm the same way (usually). I think one great fix of course would be to prevent players from rejoining after a kick, which would prevent both cheaters and people like basil from reconnecting.
Also I just wanna say the value being depreciated is just as much a feeling as other stuff you discounted on those grounds. Caring about monetary value for items you aren't relying on for a living (which you fundamentally can't because you lose money) is just as subjective as wanting a good gameplay experience. Just because you can quantify something, doesn't mean it's a better argument or less subjective. We do all of this for feeling good, not for materially supporting ourselves.
Pretty much this, yes, unless you go and sell those in-game items for IRL money, but that's usually a big legal no-no in a lot of games.
"bUt ThE sTeAm WaLlEt!" Can you withdraw money from the steam wallet and put it into your paypal?
@@Tom-cj5wt Not adding much the the conversation there by just stating a flat opinion with no explanation or regards for the OP's comment.
@@Tom-cj5wt Because if they are in a 6 man it isn't affecting your gameplay and if they join a lobby that has no problem with the easy carry through the tour it doesn't affect them either, this was all explained in the video that I'm now assuming you didn't even watch.
@@Tom-cj5wt My man I don't play tf2 anymore so honestly it isn't that big of a deal for me. As in regards to why you shouldn't allow it in pvp it hurts others which most normal people don't do because of a basic skill called empathy were you don't want to impart pain, emotional or otherwise, on others due to understanding how it may hurt their feelings (assuming you don't know what this is and it shows) this does not apply in mvm doubly so if again the people in the lobby don't care which as shown in the video half the community doesn't your points are all moot and most of it is just insults in which you try to demean me as if that makes my points any less valid and yours more so. Try to actually make a point before being a douche it helps.
@@Tom-cj5wt you're clearly the one who's soft, if you cant handle cheater in mvm just play boot camp lmao. But i know that playing with beginners will make you mad because you're a toxic tryharder. Also, why do we tolerate cheaters in mvm and not in casual ? Because bots dont have feelings, while real player can sustain the game economy if they fing the game pleasing.
10:47 I don't know what it is about the phrase "farm KEKW's" that makes me laugh so hard, but I love it.
Never thought I’d hear about morals in a TF2 video, really interesting and the sort of stuff I really like. Great video and nice editing. Script had to be the best part for me man, so engaging.
30 seconds in and Weezy is already exposing the people who tried to call him out :o
gonna be a good video boys
hey zenith, are you famous tf2 player "zenith"
@@42carlos they call me swag lord
@@zenithzv Hello swag lord
Two Pyros fighting to airblast a bomb-carrying robot around while a gang war rages on in the background is the most TF2 thing I've heard about in awhile.
goddamn man, you've gotten WAY funnier recently. this one's got some banger jokes in it, good job king. subbed
For the past several years I've somehow dodged a good portion of all this and my mind is blown. I didn't do anything super invested and grindy, only 61 tours in two city, but I never met a pyro like Basil. And I haven't actually had a toxic player in a while that kicks people that don't deserve it either. No high tour kicking newbies either just leaving matches constantly but that is something I am used to in any game.
Guess I'm just playing at the right times and dodging the mess in mvm.
good for you
I got kicked once by high-tour for having low tour count but otherwise I didn't experience this either.
Or you're playing in EU servers lmao
3:35
Is this image of a TF2 youtuber who happened to be a child predator? Who is he?
Disclaimer: I don't cheat, MvM or otherwise, nor have I ever even seen an MvM cheater
i think i commented as such on that post but if most of the lobby is fine with cheating then i don't really see the issue for MvM stuff.
I will acknowledge the inflation of the drops as a negative thing to the economy but i'm at a point where I *really* don't care. Not only are we way past the point where that was anything vaguely resembling a good idea (and it was never a good idea but it got worse over time), almost nobody is ever going to cash out from that. You are gathering these items to accumulate items that you enjoy using or being seen wearing. That's it. And it's going to be a drop in the bucket that one more aussie sniper rifle exists or whatever in terms of how much that item will be worth when you're trading them for the burning team captain or whatever you want.
Sure i'll votekick someone who tries to join and cheat and everyone wants to play the actual game, but if people just want to yank the slot machine again then I really don't have the energy to feel upset.
Agreed, If people want the loot, then roll the dice and give them.
If you play MvM for the gameplay, THEN kicking them out seems to be more reasonable.
My god man putting a link to your discord right after making a video thats destroying a hornets nest with a bat is bold to say the least
10:30
Yeah thats dumb.
"Hey this guy has connections with our enemies.
Lets annoy him! How can that possibly go wrong? Not like he will make us seem like shit compared to our enemies or something!"
This was an amazing video and got my subscribe finally. It's an amazing video, quick quips, such as "mount fiji on their fucking finger", "Having my patreon link in Mein Kampf", and even "I don't remember food battle being this intense"
It keeps me hooked and so addicted to this story, especially whenI realized I was only 5 minutes in!! AMAZING!
This guy earned my subscription. Just found out who he was yesterday, after watching his tier lists I came here today and gained so much respect for him. I love how he articulates his points, and his editing style is class. I'm gonna be keeping an eye on you, thanks for renewing my interest in TF2.
Caboose, you didn't "help" anyone on the way here, right?
"outblow the other man"
Whoo boy that's a new unintentional dirty line
I've voted for the option that stated kicking the cheaters every time they join game because I play MvM for the gameplay and for fun in free time and the loot at the end is just a bonus. I don't want my ticket to be used up by doing nothing and getting carried by a bot but I do want that loot at the end even tho it's not the primary objective but I want to earn that loot by playing good enough to finish the missions and have fun at the same time.