Are there stories of either Church members enacting capital punishment on anyone who made the oath of never revealing temple ordinances, or Church members attempting to commit suicide for the same reason?
The Lafferty killings in American Fork, Utah are an example. It wasn't church sanctioned, but a rogue member killed his sister in law and his niece because he believed they were breaking their covenants. He also believed he was a new Mormon prophet, it's very bizarre. Certainly wasn't church sanctioned though.
No. This part of the temple has been misrepresented, and no one commits suicide if they reveal the covenants they made with God. But in full integrity, why would they break a covenant they made with God? These are sacred vows to members.
@@hobgoblin1976 for sure. The way they were killed was eerily similar to the suicide penalties that were in the temple at that time, which is the connection I was trying to make.
In my experience, they don't shun family members that stop believing. They just talk about them behind their backs, treat them as less moral and less intelligent, distrust them, deny and dismiss all claims made about their religion, etc. You see, that's not shunning.
When I left the church because my husband was abusive, no one but the Bishop knew the truth. Everyone in our ward sided with my husband and would not even sit next to me any more. It was heart wrenching.
I have a twin sister who grew up in the church. She is no longer a member. She has been a stripper, has had multiple husbands and children with each. Yet even through all that our family has never stopped loving her and also including her in all of the family activities. No one should be shunned for having a different belief. Love them. Elder Holland is one of my favorite apostles of the church. I always feel the spirit when he speaks in conference.
The slip of a similar name is kind of meaningless considering how close the names are. Any parent of multiple children knows that it is easy to slip and say the wrong name. And I really wouldn't be surprised to learn that a mormon voted for another mormon, just like I wouldn't be surprised that there is a tilt in favor of voting for anyone who shares similar characteristics.
I was born and raised LDS. I had a falling out with the church as a rebellious teenager but I decided to pray about wither or not I should serve a mission. I ended up being a missionary in Tokyo Japan from 2008 - 2010. I worked at the Polynesian Cultural Center off and on before and after my mission and even part time while working in the military. I had many encounters with church leadership, met 3 apostles and a bunch of dudes from the Quorom of the seventy. Being surrounded by the LDS culture of BYUH made me grow hatred and resentment to church as I had seen how dubious and sneaky church leadership was in its financial management of the Polynesian cultural center, the implementation of "honor code" as a fear mechanism to control the minds and bodies of students, grown ass adults, that attended BYUH. The church plants agents at BYUH and PCC under the guise of elderly couples missionaries that actively would walk around like the gestapo and police peoples behavior, clothing, etc. I've witnessed a ton of fraud, waste, and abuse between dealing with BYUH and PCC. Worst of all, I hated how other members deified and hyped up visiting church leaders, ass kissed them, and the arrogant sparky aura exhibited by members in positions of power. The financial side of the church has a very insidious undertoe, and the church used the Polynesian Cultural Center to profit off of the back breaking work of Polynesians and their families that hold that place together, while paying them pennies and pretending to care by offering scholarships to student employees from other countries as a cover up to how terrible the wage pay is for the workers.
You mean the same media that tried to cover up Hunter Biden’s laptop?!? Or Hillary Clinton Benghazi scandal? Don’t get me started on Obama or Pelosi Media is all about narrative , not truth Go look up Malcolm X view on media why I even bother with you guys still boggles me
Media tends to focus on anything that can be misunderstood, misused, and defamatory... when was the last time they asked about how many people were provided relief from natural disasters, building community relationships, donating to countless charities... and then youtube influences seek to pad their pockets trying in anyway possible to shame them.
That idiot, clearly is an idiot whoever says “I’m not an idiot”…is not just saying people in cults are idiots, this idiot suggest that anyone qualifies as an idiot if they never read. …a couple of books or skip the school. What an idiot! Does all this people that reach success in life without ever step inside a classroom are idiots as this idiot interviewed? All I know that his answers makes me feel like idiot too.
That is painful to watch. I have always loved Elder Holland but he is obviously uncomfortable and is not being truthful. His body language tells this clearly.
Wow, the change in Michael Purdy’s countenance was striking when he was asked that first question. He gives the impression that he was expecting a very different kind of interview.
This is just painful to watch Elder Holland flat out lie and dodge. He's just a man, stuck in a mess of lies. I can't believe I used to defend these men too vehemently.
I saw him in another interview was obviously lying or at least not being fully honest, then he got angry... so, he gives great talks but he's true self is probably the interviews... any Mormon does it top in salt lake, local...Even people in the ward.. that's why I keep it to myself, except for one members... a true friend...
My friend was inactive for 15 years. When he did the endowment ceremony the first time after reactivation he was at the veil. He did the points of fellowship part and was scolded by a temple worker and told to stand off at the side until everyone else went through. He then was advised about the changes.
@@Sam-tu4hp In 1990 the church removed a number of things from the ceremony. There was a protestant preacher in the film. The points of fellowship was foot positions at the veil. There was a long sermon at the veil removed. There was also a vow to disembowel oneself if the person broke the covenants. Something else was on pain of death with a hand motion. The other parts in the Nauvoo endowment have also been taken out along with Utah period segments. There have been changes more recently in 2019 and 2021. These are abbreviations of past endowments. The Nauvoo endowment was over four hours including the initiatory. Today the endowment is around 90 minutes. The church announced at October 2021 general conference there will be more changes in the future.
@@scottbrandon6244 Thanks for the info! I was a member and have been through the temple numerous times. Only in the last few years did I learn about the blood oaths and stuff like that. However, the 4 hour endowment and the points of fellowship were new to me! I read transcripts of the changes in 2019. I’m glad they are making it less sexist at least
Another great analysis. I think this interview is likely the last time we’ll see a skeptical journalist press for answers against a member of the top leadership
Thank you for posting this Nemo. I am new to my faith crisis. Ive never seen this interview. This is wild. My heart has dropped! Videos like these and John dehlin really help going through this terrible process.
I’m sorry you’re entering your faith crisis. I just got to the end of mine. I promise you there is happiness and life after the crisis of faith. Stay strong! You aren’t alone
This is a very difficult time for you, especially depending on friends and family association. But please promise me (a stranger) that you will be true to yourself regardless of outcome. I was strong for 32 years and struggled mightily for some of it. But the good does not outweigh the bad and the flat out lies. You'll feel lighter and be grateful but it certainly takes time.
I already went through that crisis of faith, it was terrible and I decided to study and research the history of the church deeply. I even came out of the Mormon church, studying about the Bible and how it was written and manipulated. I learned how in the Septuagint translation many passages had been changed from the Hebrew to the Greek version. I found out about the supposed plagiarism that they did to the epic of Gilgamesh, etc etc. I even started listening to Richard Dawkins and thinking about atheism and that aliens could have created life as he says. But I finally returned to the church, I am a firm believer and I know it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. A hug to all❤
It was standard practice to shun single moms when their exes trash them to their bishops, at least in Utah County. I sold a home because I was cut off in a ward and begged for 6 months, in vain, to have my family's records transferred. There was a support group, at least when I lived through it, for single moms whose bishops listened to their abusive exes. I was invited to be a member and spoke to one woman in the group, although with young children I was not able to attend. She told me that she went to support other women, and the only reason her bishop believed her and not her abusive ex was because it was her dad. Shunning, or being "cut off," was a common practice at the time.
You mention that Holland didn't have someone prepare him. But after his "I'm not a dodo...I went to a good school...I read books" comment, I think it's more likely that he had loads of offers to help but rejected all of them thinking he could outsmart Sweeney. And, well, we all see what happened.
I am glad that you still have this interview up, Nemo. I was watching the podcast with you, Mike and John, and the video of this interview had been blocked by RUclips.
It is of great concern that leaders and high position officials would blatantly lie regarding very important principles. It compromises their integrity to be trustworthy. Nemo, once again your intelligent approach is outstanding. Thankyou.
I was raised to believe that these these guys were always truthful and honest. After the interview President Holland does leave the distinct impression that he has had lied and is at best dishonest and is a Dodo.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON my mom is about his age and she also calls people a "dodo" sometimes. I think it was a common insult when they were younger for someone not intelligent
Elder Holland gives great talks.....but, he's a turnoff in interviews...seems to be making up things, not exactly being honest, and even loss of temper
Really appreciated the breakdown you did for this interview. You made some solid comments and highlighted some of the more subtle things going on. Keep up the good work!
I've watched a variety of videos from different authors including yourself Nemo and what I like about your videos is that you take the actual Church videos and church words and church conference reports and their own material and you put your analysis on it without changing anything but just fairly scrutinizing these things and giving us honest and fair information from it. I lived with my testimony for over 40 years without realizing I was not even close to knowing the real Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints.
This was SO helpful Nemo. I watched it in April 2024 and since it has been scrubbed from some sites (Mormon Discussions - John Dehlin) I was grateful to be able to see so much of the actual interview!
They don't shun people???😮😮 I was shunned by the ward from age 7-14 for my parents just considering divorce (50 yrs ago I dunno how it's looked at today)
He means official shunning practices like some religions have. Shunning as a practice is done in certain ways and has certain rules, like when family is not to have any contact at all with the shunned person or they’ll get in trouble with church authorities. That’s why Holland referred to the “practice” of shunning.
The Church didn't shun you, maybe some individuals in it. I don't see any reason why any ward would want to do that. I've seen some members over the years get divorced and I've never seen anyone shunned for that. In fact, I've never seen anyone shunned full stop. Even members who have been excommunicated for serious sins, are not shunned.
My conclusion when reflecting on this interview and other similar disasters is that the LDS General Authorities are so used to having completely tame journalists in their world, even the Salt Lake Tribune people softball them most of the time, and they directly employ the Church News and Deseret News “journalists“, they have absolutely no clue whatsoever how to actually defend themselves in debate or under questioning because they are used to just being able to tell flat out lies and have people believe them without applying any kind of critical analysis. This interview is an amazing and insightful illustration of the car crash that occurs when totalitarian leaders who forbid opposition encounter the real world and ordinary adult humans who are capable of, and willing to use, critical analysis.
Good video man! I applaud the work you're doing. Not a Mormon myself but I spent a few years investigating the faith. Very glad to see there's people like yourself in the Church!
I could forgive one conviction of a crime. Problem was the Joseph Smith faced many charges throughout his life. At least 15-20 charges and found guilty in half of them up until 1844.
The problem with this logic is it presupposes that count of charges strengthens the likelihood that one is true. As an example that should make it clear why this logic doesn't hold, it didn't matter how matter "witches" were accused in the Salem witch trials, zero of the accused were witches.
It's so interesting to watch Elder Holland squirm and lie and whatnot. He's obviously not comfortable at all. It's also very telling how defensive he gets about the interviewer asking simple questions about ordinances and about ex members claiming the church is a cult
Is there any contact information for the Strengthening Church Members Committee? Like an email address? I doubt there is, but I have some questions I want to ask them, knowing full well they won't likely respond (unless they feel sufficiently threatened by my apostate-ship to notify my local LDS leaders).
So many many times I've ran my right thumb across my throat and waistline in an enactment in the temples that potentially I would do that if I divulged what I had learned and committed to in the temple. I first went through the temple in 1984. This went on for years. Who else remembers PAY LAE ALE three times in the prayer circle? Who else remembers the 5 points of fellowship at the veil? I'm also having memories of being touched twice (once with water, once with oil) by the finger of temple workers on my bare skin an inch or two below my navel in washing & anointings and then the guy putting my garments on me under my very loose and flowy shield.
This reminds me of the interview Pres Hinckley had when asked about becoming gods. Why is it when pressed our leaders are so embarrassed by the doctrine and practices of the church, but expect us to live by them.
Agree with giving Elder Holland the benefit of the doubt about his kids "leaving the church", my parents are mission presidents and I told them that I no longer believe in religion. While they were heartbroken, they respected my decision.
Unlike some churches, in the 30+ years I was a member I never knew of anyone who shunned their children for leaving. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but I never came across it. It certainly isn’t doctrine to do so as far as I know.
But, even if parents and children get along.... in away they are shunned because they can't go into the temple to see other family members get married. .. or if everything has to be church centered people don't always fell like going into the lion's den.
@@williamstilgoe61 it happened to me. I tried to make it work and believe for 35 years, when I couldn’t lie and pretend anymore and told my parents what was in my heart, my relationship with my parents was never the same after. There is a huge distance between us and they no longer want to be close to me or my children
Despite the significance of this Interview, I remember the first time I saw it, I found it incredulous that Holland had a Union Jack on his desk as if the reporter would somehow be really impressed.
Nemo it is 2 years later and RFM does an excellent podcast with another lawyer showing how a court works and then compares it to Joseph Smith. Called Rules of Evidence 602 refers to Testimony and Testifying. How Holland lied and now the 15 can Not be asked questions because people interviewing would be then free to ask follow questions ie: like being Cross examined. It is 2 podcasts They speak of Propensity if evidence related to Joseph’s character.494B prior bad acts. Statistical Probability: With Doctrine of Chance: Statistical probability Kinder plates Urine/ thymine Plates of Gold Sword of Laban Zelph bones arrow taken to Utah Adams altar in Missouri Abrahams papyrus Saw Peter James and John. I love how you put everything together.
I heard someone say once (not a professional) that when someone is lying their body tells the truth. For example in the beginning of this video elder Holland denies the vows but nods his head. I remember years ago seeing a video in church with elder oaks baring his testimony and shaking his head no. After that I thought the body-telling-the-truth theory was wrong because elder oaks wouldn't lie. Now I've changed my tune. I should have paid attention back then.
That's fascinating! It's true paralinguistic features make up a fair percentage of our communication (nods facial expressions posture etc). Good spot on Elder Holland!
My man, I'm sure you get this all the time and maybe it already exists. Have you considered uploading your content to podcast platforms? This is something easily appreciated over multiple sessions.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'd love to see you and Jonathan Streeter from Thinker of Thoughts put something together. The way you quickly hone in on things, and the way he elaborates would make for a great collaboration.
I've always found his response to the temple penalties particularly weasly. The first time you go through the temple is the only time you do it for yourself. Every other time it is a proxy for a dead person, and there is no language in there that you are reaffirming your personal endowment. It's a reminder, absolutely a strong reminder, but not a renewal. So you are only bound by whatever the oaths were during your first visit, no matter how many changes have been made since. I'm glad the interviewer honed on on this, and how poorly Holland addressed it.
Excellent point, you are bound by whatever promises you make at the time. This is going to be interesting when some women in the CK promised to obey their husbands and others just to obey god. Good luck with that!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON exactly...that's one of the problems I'm now having with temple ordinances being necessary for after life in the eternal life..maybe good now, but if really necessary..why would it change..we're told God doesn't change... but he seems to be in church and temple..
We know from LDS members alive during the Nauvoo period how long and what the contents of the endowment ceremony were. They wrote in journals and books of remembrance. The endowment ceremony was around five hours long (including washings). Today's version is at least an abbreviated version. The washings and anointing part has changed twice in the last 20 years.
The more I see videos of any of the Mormon church leaders talk, the more I seem to find almost immediate cunning word play that would make many politicians drool with envy.
Just asked two missionaries if Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls. They said yes. I told them Jesus likely drank coffee and and wine especially prevalent in the Middle East including tobacco that he had dark skin. They told me to read a book about church history.😂
NEMO- you should do a video on masonic oaths and rituals. I have read a little about the rituals during the 1700s and they are more bizarre than anything you cover about LDS ceremonies.
15:21 point and case in aum shinrikyo. This Japanese death cult had many members that were scientists, government officials, professionals, doctors, and so on
Nemo your taste in music is impeccable! I love Miles Davis. Am I correct that the music is off his "Ascender Pour L'echafaud album? Thanks for another outstanding episode.
I believe really strongly that there are a lot of educated stupid people!! Boy he lied a lot of times in the interview. I really love the way BBC handled this whole thing thank you so much what a great video I will share often
My parents doubled down on wanting me around but only to hurt me and persecute me for my evangelical beliefs. They seemed to believe the "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" adage and did indeed treat me like an enemy even though we were supposedly both Christians. Later i found out that my Dad didn't even see himself as a Christian.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yep..exactly what most cults do.... when I became a member almost thirty years ago..I missed it... now, since finding things aren't what I was told...I've been reviewing the last two years.. I've definitely soured on the church. I go... but, I'm less in... I actually was never a great member missionary...maybe finally getting strength. I'll never formally leave.... but...
You’re videos are very interesting. I’m surprised you are LDS. From the many LDS that I have talked to don’t usually deviant from their prophets teachings or disagree with them so strongly.
Before 1990 or ever did or has the church never enacted penalties of death. This is a total misunderstanding the temple ceremony. By the way I received Mr endowment before 1990. Elder Holand is telling the truth.
Hi, Nemo. I want to "flesh out an idea" that Holland absolutely fails at: providing Sweeney with "smoke & mirrors", instead. And, that idea has to do with "shunning", in the Church. Holland flatly denies "the practice of shunning" (note: this is not an exact quote, as you can see, but it serves to let the reader know that I know what was in Holland's head!) ELDER HOLLAND could, if challenged, claim plausible deniability, here (with this topic) as he did in other parts of this interview. If PRESSED on it-- which is something Sweeney didn't do, in this case-- Jeffrey Holland would have "clarified" that the LDS Church doesn't practice SHUNNING as a disciplinary action and administrative procedure: like they do among the Amish (here in the States). For the Amish, "shunning" has specific parameters (and time limits), as a means of discipline in that religion. And, Holland knows that! What Sweeney was really asking was whether or not individuals were treated like dirt and made to feel "no longer welcome", by the collective body of a ward/stake. (This is very different from what the Amish do: and, when Mormons do it, it constitutes emotional abuse.) Holland LITERALLY "played the Dodo", here, too!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON May I add an "addendum", here, as an afterthought? Actually, what came to mind, just now, is an actual (prominent) incidence of shunning that took place at the other end of the valley from where Phoenix, Arizona is situated: in the "East Valley" predominantly-Mormon, large metropolis of Mesa: this city having a substantially higher percentage of members than many areas of the "LDS stronghold of Utah". [This is just to put things into perspective, at the beginning of this narrative.] There was, in Mesa, Arizona, in the mid-1980s, a well- known (but quiet) gentleman of LDS ancestry named Norman Hancock. He was an honorable, hard-working man who had his own business (i.e., a plumber or electrician, I don't recall), there in the city of Mesa. He was an unassuming man who quietly did his duty as a home teacher, in the Church; and, he was a direct descendant of Levi Hancock (who is mentioned in the D&C). Norman "tolerated" that odd "celebrity status" (i.e., the adulation and preferential treatment) that people received, whose ancestors were noteworthy characters in the "early Church". Hancock, in the 1980s, enjoyed a thriving business among the (largely Mormon) citizenry: there, east of Phoenix. NOTE: I was in Phoenix in the last half of the '80s; but, I didn't hear about Hancock until the early '90s... Anyway, Norman was a good man and full of empathy towards people: so, as an understanding person, he made a good home teacher. He provided a good "listening ear" to a struggling divorcée with children. After he was released as her home teacher, he agreed to meet her at a public place (a restaurant), on occasion, to offer his good advice (or to just listen), from time-to-time. THE RUMOR MILL began to "work overtime", in his ward: and, soon, there were members peeping into (i.e., looking through) his windows, to see if he was having an affair with this woman! Well, now! We see that the Strengthening the Members Committee isn't the only group to "spy on its members"! Members spying on members! Who knew?! To condense the story, Hancock was excommunicated, based on rumor. His ward "emotionally blackmailed" him; shunned him; and, refused to continue to do business with him. As a result, his business failed. There are many more (ugly) details, which I will forego, here. The story only serves to confirm that Elder Holland had lied about LDS shunning, in that BBC interview. (Note: The larger the membership, within the total population of a geographical area, the greater the likelihood that there will be shunning, within Mormondom.) Epilogue: Hancock was exonerated by The First Presidency but was told to go back to his stake president, to get his "blessings restored". (The stake president, who knew it was actually HE who had the power to "give" or "take away" blessings, refused to do the right thing...like the good Pharisee that he was!) I wasn't surprised then, and I'm not surprised now... ...and the SAGA continues, in Mormondumb.
So what's _your_ take on the whole "cult" thing, Mr. "still a Mormon" (for the moment, at least)? Are we, or are we not, a cult, and how do _you_ back up _your_ reply?
Could we please borrow John Sweeney for a while? At least until, say, January 21, 2025? He is a better interviewer and journalist than 95% of US news-critters.
One difference between a religion and a cult is that religions tolerate and mostly ignore any critics and naysayers, and just move forward with those who have common beliefs. Cults, on the other hand, have very little tolerance for members who question or criticize the organization or its leaders, and will move to punish and penalize offenders in many ways, usually making it as public and painful as possible. Social pressure is a powerful tool, and one that cults depend upon heavily for their status and longevity.
I don't find that to be accurate. As a local lay leader for many decades, I have witnessed immense tolerance for alternative beliefs. There were situations in which I suspect excommunication could have been called for by one person or another, but leaders felt the need to be patient and let the person's beliefs and behaviors play themselves out one way or another. More likely, I would observe a cult of one person being belligerent, thinking they were smarter than everyone else, rather than a cult of church policy or practices. To your point, of course, social pressure to conform is present, just as it is present on a school playground, or in a sports team. If one is around other people that they don't want to be around or be like, then its on them to find a group that works for them. They should not expect that an entire church or even a ward revolve around them and them alone. We teach what we teach in order to find and give fellowship to those whose personal beliefs and practices align with and are uplifted by the doctrines of Christ. Those who express feelings to the contrary do not typically join in the first place.
@@networkteacher1 Fun to say that, but there have been LOTS of excommunications and disfellowships involving naysayers, and particularly the more well-known ones (sometimes identified as "intellectuals")--and since gossip is a huge factor in most church settings (wards and stakes, primarily) the phenomenon of what amounts to informal disfellowship is real. If you're not in with the in-crowd, then you're very often deemed dangerously "inactive" or "off the deep end" or "off the rails." Also, there's a strong tendency for anyone who criticizes any teaching, pronouncement, program, etc., to be categorized as "not believing in the doctrines of Christ," as you've kinda pointed out in your response. What I've noticed is that "the Church" primarily teaches the doctrines of men and goes heavily into the micro-management of people's lives, but when they reach a sticky point with anything, THEN they roll out Christ, and claim that any critics are surely not aligned with the Savior or his teachings. Maybe this explains why so many who "leave the Church" tend to often conclude that they must then in fact be atheists. These days, nearly all meetings (Sacrament, etc.) are just a rehash of some general conference talk by someone, and fast and testimony meetings are people jumping up and saying what they "know" to be true, when in fact many of them are lying as instructed, since people like Packer and Oaks have taught that the way to gain or strengthen a testimony is to DECLARE the testimony; I guess the idea is that if you lie in public enough, at some point you'll have even yourself believing it.
@@joetaylor8687 Cousin, I think you are missing the bigger picture of how we humans really are. If you work for someone and don't really believe in the company's mission, sooner or later, you are encouraged to find another job, to put it politely. However, the church is different in the sense that we have no desire to see people leave, none at all. I've been in 5 bishoprics, and I can only remember two church courts in 45 years, and I don't even remember the circumstances anymore. Neither resulted in excommunication. There have been people who asked to have their membership removed, which except for a confirming call from the Bishop, was honored without delay. Does that sound like a cult? On the flip side, we do all we can to encourage embracing the critical elements of Christ's atonement along with a commitment to share that message, both in service as well as evangelism. If you are not seeing that these past few years, pay closer attention. But, let me throw you a bone. If you go back a few decades, you can certainly see that there has been an adjustment to better support members as opposed to members supporting the church. The church is more responsive to individual needs, talents, proclivities, challenges, and there is greater willingness to contribute to causes that help mankind. The cooperativeness with other churches, Red Cross, etc., in natural disasters is a case in point, close to a billion dollars of it last year, exceeded only by the biggest Christian church on the planet, and not by much. My guess is that earlier decades lacked the resources to make that kind of outreach possible. As for micro-management...really? How many 'sisters' would put up with that? You know the answer. None. They can barely put up with it from their husbands, and probably with good reason. If you are married, you know. Am I right? And, by most accounts, I am the loudest, most obnoxious voice in Sunday School and Priesthood. I've never once been told to keep my opinions to myself. And, believe me, I could do a little better at self policing. For example, I have a pet peeve about saying 'The church is true'. I have no problem declaring 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true', but I can see that the church is still evolving to improve and adapt, as it should. And I do believe it is led by inspiration, though sometimes with a teaspoon of desperation for nursery help and pianists. And that frustration is just an observation born of experience with imperfect members like myself who, for some reason, take free agency seriously. 🙂 Ok, to be sure, I have been in wards that were not as warm as mine. But your description just doesn't describe my ward, which has a lot of human melting pot flavors to it. Its a wonderful and growing group with love and miracles that people are anxious to share every Sunday, not just Fast Sunday. Maybe I won the ward membership lottery, but it could also be that really trying to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually makes a difference! What a concept that would be!
@@networkteacher1 This is where a lot of critics of the Church shoot themselves in the foot and lose credibility: They equate the Church with conservative values and Republican politics, and I don't think most of the hierarchy at headquarters is really all that conservative anymore. Plus, conservative values represent progress and productivity, and there are lots of reasons why people believe that liberalism is a form of mental illness, since it usually advocates everything that parallels predatory and parasitic behavior and beliefs.
Nemo the Mormon, I am a bit stunned that the LDS church has not excommunicated or at least disfellowshipped you yet! That has always been the LDS answer to anyone who openly criticized the church. I'm wondering if they are looking for another means of dealing with you that won't turn you into a martyr for exposing the laundry list of issues. Are you prepared (emotionally) for the strong possibility that you will be drawn before a church council, and be excommunicated? My perspective (though no one is asking for it) is that doing so would do much greater harm to the organization, because 1) they would lose a brilliant, though disillusioned, member, and 2) you would surely go on to join the growing army of ex-Mormon critics of their church. You could do them much more damage from the outside where they will lose much of their power over you.
@@NEMOTHEMORMONI love your channel and your excellent commentary on the many logistical fallacies used in defense of Joseph Smith and church doctrine and practices. I have come to respect you so much that I am emotionally on the fence as to whether I would rather see you free from the LDS church and free to find a Christian church that allows freedom to grow and question doctrine (which would also mean the extreme suffering of being shunned and removed), or if it would be better for you to stay and avoid the pain yet still be a voice for truth and reason. I just pray that you are blessed in all you do. Never abandon your quest for truth and love, because God's greatest attributes are God's unassailable truth and God's eternal love.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON What's the point of deep diving into an interview? If you believe Holland is lying, leave the church. If you don't have a testimony, leave the church. Just find your peace. If you're a member and you believe in the gospel, why are you wasting your time doing videos like this instead of, you know, doing good things to uplift people around you? The problem I see here is that you're trying to apply empirical evidence to eternal truths of an esoteric nature. A rational empiricist should know that the existence of a supreme deity cannot be proved or disproved.
@@frey-n-zel why do you assume he is wasting his time? The world isn’t black and white, in or out. Nemo has helped a lot of people with his efforts and his goals are all admirable
I can appreciate Nemo's candor and line of questioning without it shaking my faith. But, my faith is in Christ, not Elder Holland. I am fan of Elder Holland's conference messages and uplifting way of witnessing for Christ. But, he is human and the nit picking of Sweeney and subsequently, Nemo, exposed a lack of preparedness for the interview on Elder Holland's part. Sometimes, the best answer is, 'Can I get back to you on that?' I am terrible when trying to think on my feet, so I have no room to criticize and I admire those those who, in the heat of the moment, come up with clever responses. Jesus was certainly known for that. But, its not fair to expect the rest of us to be so perfected.
Nemo, you would love a book called “spy the lie”. Written by former CIA polygraph technicians. The techniques they explain can expose the LDS leaders “stories” beautifully.
@salsus... I will interject, here: When I first saw this interview (those years ago), I noticed how Holland played dumb (viz., played the Dodo) whenever it suited him! And, then, later on, he looks both "wounded" and "indignant", saying, "You think I'm a Dodo?" (excuse me if my quote isn't an exact quote). My response to Elder Holland's "indignant accusation" would be this: "Well, yeah, Elder Holland! You've been playing the role of a dodo the whole time, you disingenuous creep!"
Are there stories of either Church members enacting capital punishment on anyone who made the oath of never revealing temple ordinances, or Church members attempting to commit suicide for the same reason?
Great question!!! I’d be fascinated to know!
The Lafferty killings in American Fork, Utah are an example. It wasn't church sanctioned, but a rogue member killed his sister in law and his niece because he believed they were breaking their covenants. He also believed he was a new Mormon prophet, it's very bizarre. Certainly wasn't church sanctioned though.
No. This part of the temple has been misrepresented, and no one commits suicide if they reveal the covenants they made with God. But in full integrity, why would they break a covenant they made with God? These are sacred vows to members.
@@deanabraden9871 I broke mine.
@@hobgoblin1976 for sure. The way they were killed was eerily similar to the suicide penalties that were in the temple at that time, which is the connection I was trying to make.
In my experience, they don't shun family members that stop believing. They just talk about them behind their backs, treat them as less moral and less intelligent, distrust them, deny and dismiss all claims made about their religion, etc. You see, that's not shunning.
Great point, just because we don’t “shun”, doesn’t mean we don’t act badly towards those who leave!
When I left the church because my husband was abusive, no one but the Bishop knew the truth. Everyone in our ward sided with my husband and would not even sit next to me any more. It was heart wrenching.
I’ve been nothing but shunned and wrote off since leaving.
I have a twin sister who grew up in the church. She is no longer a member. She has been a stripper, has had multiple husbands and children with each. Yet even through all that our family has never stopped loving her and also including her in all of the family activities. No one should be shunned for having a different belief. Love them. Elder Holland is one of my favorite apostles of the church. I always feel the spirit when he speaks in conference.
@@bonesjones38 Have you heard Holland's infamous "musket fire" speech yet?
Love the Freudian slip "Osama". I think we know how Holland voted.
Ronald Grump?
lol 😂
The slip of a similar name is kind of meaningless considering how close the names are. Any parent of multiple children knows that it is easy to slip and say the wrong name. And I really wouldn't be surprised to learn that a mormon voted for another mormon, just like I wouldn't be surprised that there is a tilt in favor of voting for anyone who shares similar characteristics.
your face looks kind of Freudian, were your parents siblings?
I was born and raised LDS. I had a falling out with the church as a rebellious teenager but I decided to pray about wither or not I should serve a mission. I ended up being a missionary in Tokyo Japan from 2008 - 2010.
I worked at the Polynesian Cultural Center off and on before and after my mission and even part time while working in the military. I had many encounters with church leadership, met 3 apostles and a bunch of dudes from the Quorom of the seventy.
Being surrounded by the LDS culture of BYUH made me grow hatred and resentment to church as I had seen how dubious and sneaky church leadership was in its financial management of the Polynesian cultural center, the implementation of "honor code" as a fear mechanism to control the minds and bodies of students, grown ass adults, that attended BYUH. The church plants agents at BYUH and PCC under the guise of elderly couples missionaries that actively would walk around like the gestapo and police peoples behavior, clothing, etc.
I've witnessed a ton of fraud, waste, and abuse between dealing with BYUH and PCC. Worst of all, I hated how other members deified and hyped up visiting church leaders, ass kissed them, and the arrogant sparky aura exhibited by members in positions of power.
The financial side of the church has a very insidious undertoe, and the church used the Polynesian Cultural Center to profit off of the back breaking work of Polynesians and their families that hold that place together, while paying them pennies and pretending to care by offering scholarships to student employees from other countries as a cover up to how terrible the wage pay is for the workers.
Don’t wanna add to the bonfire, but I’m fairly sure the President of the cultural centre is paid over 200k
Hopefully u ran from the church and ran to Jesus. God is great. Have a blessed day.
A form of neo-colonialism rooted in the exploitation of traditional cultures for monetary profit.
apostles rarely speak to the media, because they don't have answers to the hard questions
They do, just not truthfully ;)
It's easy to be morally superior when your standing on the rameumtom unchallenged.
You mean the same media that tried to cover up Hunter Biden’s laptop?!?
Or Hillary Clinton Benghazi scandal?
Don’t get me started on Obama or Pelosi
Media is all about narrative , not truth
Go look up Malcolm X view on media
why I even bother with you guys still boggles me
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I thought you were a Mormon!
Media tends to focus on anything that can be misunderstood, misused, and defamatory... when was the last time they asked about how many people were provided relief from natural disasters, building community relationships, donating to countless charities... and then youtube influences seek to pad their pockets trying in anyway possible to shame them.
Excellent analysis of this classic interview we can’t let time forget.
Thanks! I remembered it the other day and immediately thought, “I gotta do a video”!!
That idiot, clearly is an idiot whoever says “I’m not an idiot”…is not just saying people in cults are idiots, this idiot suggest that anyone qualifies as an idiot if they never read. …a couple of books or skip the school. What an idiot! Does all this people that reach success in life without ever step inside a classroom are idiots as this idiot interviewed? All I know that his answers makes me feel like idiot too.
That is painful to watch. I have always loved Elder Holland but he is obviously uncomfortable and is not being truthful. His body language tells this clearly.
Exactly, you don't need to be an expert to see how uncomfortable he is!
Maybe sometimes the truth hurts.
He's clearly not used to playing in front of a real journalist--puff pieces in the Deseret News or on KSL don't count.
RadioFreeUtah clearly, I think the LDS controlled media in Utah doesn’t help at all!
Like that in all interviews...
Wow, the change in Michael Purdy’s countenance was striking when he was asked that first question. He gives the impression that he was expecting a very different kind of interview.
I know right! Crazy how quick his face drops!
This was the interview that started my journey out of Mormonism
This is just painful to watch Elder Holland flat out lie and dodge. He's just a man, stuck in a mess of lies. I can't believe I used to defend these men too vehemently.
Yeah, a real hero crushing moment for me!
I saw him in another interview was obviously lying or at least not being fully honest, then he got angry... so, he gives great talks but he's true self is probably the interviews... any Mormon does it top in salt lake, local...Even people in the ward.. that's why I keep it to myself, except for one members... a true friend...
My friend was inactive for 15 years. When he did the endowment ceremony the first time after reactivation he was at the veil. He did the points of fellowship part and was scolded by a temple worker and told to stand off at the side until everyone else went through. He then was advised about the changes.
What are the points of fellowship?? Never heard of that before and I’m intrigued
@@Sam-tu4hp In 1990 the church removed a number of things from the ceremony. There was a protestant preacher in the film. The points of fellowship was foot positions at the veil. There was a long sermon at the veil removed. There was also a vow to disembowel oneself if the person broke the covenants. Something else was on pain of death with a hand motion. The other parts in the Nauvoo endowment have also been taken out along with Utah period segments. There have been changes more recently in 2019 and 2021. These are abbreviations of past endowments. The Nauvoo endowment was over four hours including the initiatory. Today the endowment is around 90 minutes. The church announced at October 2021 general conference there will be more changes in the future.
@@scottbrandon6244 Thanks for the info! I was a member and have been through the temple numerous times. Only in the last few years did I learn about the blood oaths and stuff like that. However, the 4 hour endowment and the points of fellowship were new to me! I read transcripts of the changes in 2019. I’m glad they are making it less sexist at least
Another great analysis. I think this interview is likely the last time we’ll see a skeptical journalist press for answers against a member of the top leadership
Brian T unfortunately you may be right!
Thank you for posting this Nemo. I am new to my faith crisis. Ive never seen this interview. This is wild. My heart has dropped! Videos like these and John dehlin really help going through this terrible process.
I’m sorry you’re entering your faith crisis. I just got to the end of mine. I promise you there is happiness and life after the crisis of faith. Stay strong! You aren’t alone
This is a very difficult time for you, especially depending on friends and family association. But please promise me (a stranger) that you will be true to yourself regardless of outcome. I was strong for 32 years and struggled mightily for some of it. But the good does not outweigh the bad and the flat out lies. You'll feel lighter and be grateful but it certainly takes time.
Welcome to the most liberating crisis of your life
It can really feel like that one bit in the matrix where he wakes up in the pod…
I already went through that crisis of faith, it was terrible and I decided to study and research the history of the church deeply. I even came out of the Mormon church, studying about the Bible and how it was written and manipulated. I learned how in the Septuagint translation many passages had been changed from the Hebrew to the Greek version. I found out about the supposed plagiarism that they did to the epic of Gilgamesh, etc etc. I even started listening to Richard Dawkins and thinking about atheism and that aliens could have created life as he says. But I finally returned to the church, I am a firm believer and I know it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. A hug to all❤
It was standard practice to shun single moms when their exes trash them to their bishops, at least in Utah County. I sold a home because I was cut off in a ward and begged for 6 months, in vain, to have my family's records transferred. There was a support group, at least when I lived through it, for single moms whose bishops listened to their abusive exes. I was invited to be a member and spoke to one woman in the group, although with young children I was not able to attend. She told me that she went to support other women, and the only reason her bishop believed her and not her abusive ex was because it was her dad. Shunning, or being "cut off," was a common practice at the time.
I believe it and that's so awful
You mention that Holland didn't have someone prepare him. But after his "I'm not a dodo...I went to a good school...I read books" comment, I think it's more likely that he had loads of offers to help but rejected all of them thinking he could outsmart Sweeney. And, well, we all see what happened.
Came here from Mormon Stories, LDS talks, the episode on ties to the Masons.
Well done channel, logical, proper. Subscribed!
Never forget. Others must see this
I am glad that you still have this interview up, Nemo. I was watching the podcast with you, Mike and John, and the video of this interview had been blocked by RUclips.
It is of great concern that leaders and high position officials would blatantly lie regarding very important principles.
It compromises their integrity to be trustworthy.
Nemo, once again your intelligent approach is outstanding. Thankyou.
Thanks! I agree, it is very concerning!
I came to see this video after seeing you on Mormon Stories yesterday. Thanks for your thoughtful perspective.
1:00 I think you mean the Book of Abraham, not the Book of Mormon, in this case.
Mark Ridgway absolutely, thanks for picking that up!!
I was raised to believe that these these guys were always truthful and honest. After the interview President Holland does leave the distinct impression that he has had lied and is at best dishonest and is a Dodo.
I still don't get why he chose dodo, but there we are! I was also raised to believe the same thing, sucks to be proven wrong!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON my mom is about his age and she also calls people a "dodo" sometimes. I think it was a common insult when they were younger for someone not intelligent
Elder Holland gives great talks.....but, he's a turnoff in interviews...seems to be making up things, not exactly being honest, and even loss of temper
At a fireside, Elder Oaks advocated a limited relationship (on his terms only) with a LGBT son. I wish Oaks would have a talk with Holland on this.
@@Cocoisagordonsetter Holland?
"I have no idea..."
I don't believe that for one second
Nemo - love what you’re doing. Keep it up, dude.
Thank you kindly!
Really appreciated the breakdown you did for this interview. You made some solid comments and highlighted some of the more subtle things going on. Keep up the good work!
Cheers!
I've watched a variety of videos from different authors including yourself Nemo and what I like about your videos is that you take the actual Church videos and church words and church conference reports and their own material and you put your analysis on it without changing anything but just fairly scrutinizing these things and giving us honest and fair information from it. I lived with my testimony for over 40 years without realizing I was not even close to knowing the real Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints.
Thank you for your kind feedback!
This was SO helpful Nemo. I watched it in April 2024 and since it has been scrubbed from some sites (Mormon Discussions - John Dehlin) I was grateful to be able to see so much of the actual interview!
They don't shun people???😮😮 I was shunned by the ward from age 7-14 for my parents just considering divorce (50 yrs ago I dunno how it's looked at today)
He means official shunning practices like some religions have. Shunning as a practice is done in certain ways and has certain rules, like when family is not to have any contact at all with the shunned person or they’ll get in trouble with church authorities. That’s why Holland referred to the “practice” of shunning.
The Church didn't shun you, maybe some individuals in it. I don't see any reason why any ward would want to do that. I've seen some members over the years get divorced and I've never seen anyone shunned for that. In fact, I've never seen anyone shunned full stop. Even members who have been excommunicated for serious sins, are not shunned.
My conclusion when reflecting on this interview and other similar disasters is that the LDS General Authorities are so used to having completely tame journalists in their world, even the Salt Lake Tribune people softball them most of the time, and they directly employ the Church News and Deseret News “journalists“, they have absolutely no clue whatsoever how to actually defend themselves in debate or under questioning because they are used to just being able to tell flat out lies and have people believe them without applying any kind of critical analysis.
This interview is an amazing and insightful illustration of the car crash that occurs when totalitarian leaders who forbid opposition encounter the real world and ordinary adult humans who are capable of, and willing to use, critical analysis.
I know! Sheltered doesn't even begin to describe it!
Thanks for putting this together- never saw this piece before and I think you give a very fair, critical, and empathetic analysis. Great work!
Thank you very much! Glad you liked it.
Good video man! I applaud the work you're doing. Not a Mormon myself but I spent a few years investigating the faith. Very glad to see there's people like yourself in the Church!
Cheers!
This is BEAUTIFUL! I think every member of the church needs to watch this!
I could forgive one conviction of a crime. Problem was the Joseph Smith faced many charges throughout his life. At least 15-20 charges and found guilty in half of them up until 1844.
If you can get me some sources for those charges i'd be super interested to see them!
The problem with this logic is it presupposes that count of charges strengthens the likelihood that one is true. As an example that should make it clear why this logic doesn't hold, it didn't matter how matter "witches" were accused in the Salem witch trials, zero of the accused were witches.
In 1844, they settled out of court with Joseph Smith. They killed him.
Another excellent video. Thank you for creating such thoughtful content!
Thank you! Feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss my future uploads. Thank you for watching and for your feedback!
It's so interesting to watch Elder Holland squirm and lie and whatnot. He's obviously not comfortable at all. It's also very telling how defensive he gets about the interviewer asking simple questions about ordinances and about ex members claiming the church is a cult
Is there any contact information for the Strengthening Church Members Committee? Like an email address? I doubt there is, but I have some questions I want to ask them, knowing full well they won't likely respond (unless they feel sufficiently threatened by my apostate-ship to notify my local LDS leaders).
So many many times I've ran my right thumb across my throat and waistline in an enactment in the temples that potentially I would do that if I divulged what I had learned and committed to in the temple. I first went through the temple in 1984. This went on for years. Who else remembers PAY LAE ALE three times in the prayer circle? Who else remembers the 5 points of fellowship at the veil? I'm also having memories of being touched twice (once with water, once with oil) by the finger of temple workers on my bare skin an inch or two below my navel in washing & anointings and then the guy putting my garments on me under my very loose and flowy shield.
This reminds me of the interview Pres Hinckley had when asked about becoming gods. Why is it when pressed our leaders are so embarrassed by the doctrine and practices of the church, but expect us to live by them.
Liar.
Thanks, Nemo. Holland has shown himself to be a bully and a liar so many times.
Agree with giving Elder Holland the benefit of the doubt about his kids "leaving the church", my parents are mission presidents and I told them that I no longer believe in religion. While they were heartbroken, they respected my decision.
Thanks, glad your parents respected your decision!
Unlike some churches, in the 30+ years I was a member I never knew of anyone who shunned their children for leaving. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but I never came across it. It certainly isn’t doctrine to do so as far as I know.
I had a roommate once who said her dad did things the way heavenly father would do them. I interpreted that to mean he was abusive.
But, even if parents and children get along.... in away they are shunned because they can't go into the temple to see other family members get married. .. or if everything has to be church centered people don't always fell like going into the lion's den.
@@williamstilgoe61 it happened to me. I tried to make it work and believe for 35 years, when I couldn’t lie and pretend anymore and told my parents what was in my heart, my relationship with my parents was never the same after. There is a huge distance between us and they no longer want to be close to me or my children
excellent analysis, thank you!
Absolutely love what your doing with you channel! Feel free to reach out to me if you need any help.
LoganDBeck 小貝 thanks, if you can drop me an email, nemothemormon@gmail.com, that’d be great! Cheers for the offer!
that osama slip is painful
Not really considering their names happen to be very close to each other.
@@robertsmith17359 Alright!
If your going to dedicate your life for a cause, your going to have an idea about it. If you are a sales man then you would say " I have no idea"
'sounds Masonic'! the temple rituals are Smith's version of masonic rituals.
Despite the significance of this Interview, I remember the first time I saw it, I found it incredulous that Holland had a Union Jack on his desk as if the reporter would somehow be really impressed.
I found this fascinating. Are there any other more interviews by general authorities like this out there?
Let’s play a game while we watch… it’s called "Name that Fallacy!"
Nemo it is 2 years later and RFM does an excellent podcast with another lawyer showing how a court works and then compares it to Joseph Smith. Called Rules of Evidence 602 refers to Testimony and Testifying. How Holland lied and now the 15 can Not be asked questions because people interviewing would be then free to ask follow questions ie: like being Cross examined.
It is 2 podcasts
They speak of
Propensity if evidence related to Joseph’s character.494B prior bad acts.
Statistical Probability:
With Doctrine of Chance:
Statistical probability
Kinder plates
Urine/ thymine
Plates of Gold
Sword of Laban
Zelph bones arrow taken to Utah
Adams altar in Missouri
Abrahams papyrus
Saw Peter James and John.
I love how you put everything together.
I heard someone say once (not a professional) that when someone is lying their body tells the truth. For example in the beginning of this video elder Holland denies the vows but nods his head.
I remember years ago seeing a video in church with elder oaks baring his testimony and shaking his head no. After that I thought the body-telling-the-truth theory was wrong because elder oaks wouldn't lie. Now I've changed my tune. I should have paid attention back then.
That's fascinating! It's true paralinguistic features make up a fair percentage of our communication (nods facial expressions posture etc). Good spot on Elder Holland!
My man, I'm sure you get this all the time and maybe it already exists. Have you considered uploading your content to podcast platforms? This is something easily appreciated over multiple sessions.
You may have to explain that last bit to me! On the whole I've thought about podcasts but i'm not sure how the visual elements will come across.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'd love to see you and Jonathan Streeter from Thinker of Thoughts put something together. The way you quickly hone in on things, and the way he elaborates would make for a great collaboration.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I think you could do a weekly podcast and talk about /whatever you want/, and people like me would listen.
There sure is a lot of “ I DON’T KNOW” going on these days because they’re called out on the carpet.
Nemo, you are a blessing to those of us seeking truth after the brain washing we’ve endured as Mormons. (Whoops Satan is chuckling.)
Thank you!
Elder Ballard talked about the church not being a cult in some sort of broadcast. He said something about it being a misunderstanding.
Thanks! If you ever manage to track down the broadcast, be sure to share!
Thanks for your work. It's exactly the type of channel I've been looking for.
Glad you enjoy it!
WOW! I have heard of this interview but this video really helped me to realize how big of a blow it is to Holland and the church!
yep, sure is a doozy!
I've always found his response to the temple penalties particularly weasly. The first time you go through the temple is the only time you do it for yourself.
Every other time it is a proxy for a dead person, and there is no language in there that you are reaffirming your personal endowment. It's a reminder, absolutely a strong reminder, but not a renewal.
So you are only bound by whatever the oaths were during your first visit, no matter how many changes have been made since.
I'm glad the interviewer honed on on this, and how poorly Holland addressed it.
Excellent point, you are bound by whatever promises you make at the time. This is going to be interesting when some women in the CK promised to obey their husbands and others just to obey god. Good luck with that!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON exactly...that's one of the problems I'm now having with temple ordinances being necessary for after life in the eternal life..maybe good now, but if really necessary..why would it change..we're told God doesn't change... but he seems to be in church and temple..
This is a great observation. The changes are not retroactive.
We know from LDS members alive during the Nauvoo period how long and what the contents of the endowment ceremony were. They wrote in journals and books of remembrance. The endowment ceremony was around five hours long (including washings). Today's version is at least an abbreviated version. The washings and anointing part has changed twice in the last 20 years.
NEMO- There is a strengthening church members committee of sorts for BYU student and staff. They monitor them on and off campus.
The more I see videos of any of the Mormon church leaders talk, the more I seem to find almost immediate cunning word play that would make many politicians drool with envy.
Just asked two missionaries if Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls. They said yes. I told them Jesus likely drank coffee and and wine especially prevalent in the Middle East including tobacco that he had dark skin. They told me to read a book about church history.😂
NEMO- you should do a video on masonic oaths and rituals. I have read a little about the rituals during the 1700s and they are more bizarre than anything you cover about LDS ceremonies.
15:21 point and case in aum shinrikyo. This Japanese death cult had many members that were scientists, government officials, professionals, doctors, and so on
Interesting example, thank you!
Why was a flag of the UK on Elder Holland's desk?
Was another great listen , thank you NEMO
You’re very welcome! Thanks for watching!
He is not the first one from the church to lie. Joseph Smith started the church by deceiving people. God is great. Have a blessed day.
I need to know which eye ball is looking at the camera?
Nemo your taste in music is impeccable! I love Miles Davis. Am I correct that the music is off his "Ascender Pour L'echafaud album? Thanks for another outstanding episode.
14:27 To give Elder Holland the doubt, there is a pretty far distance between criticizing the church and deeming it a cult.
I believe really strongly that there are a lot of educated stupid people!! Boy he lied a lot of times in the interview. I really love the way BBC handled this whole thing thank you so much what a great video I will share often
My parents doubled down on wanting me around but only to hurt me and persecute me for my evangelical beliefs. They seemed to believe the "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" adage and did indeed treat me like an enemy even though we were supposedly both Christians. Later i found out that my Dad didn't even see himself as a Christian.
At 14:47...Elder Holland puts on his "persecution complex" persona:
"Go ahead and persecute us, if you want to."
(What a drama queen!)
Good point, he becomes offended and hides behind that rather than addressing the issue!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
Indeed!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yep..exactly what most cults do.... when I became a member almost thirty years ago..I missed it... now, since finding things aren't what I was told...I've been reviewing the last two years.. I've definitely soured on the church. I go... but, I'm less in... I actually was never a great member missionary...maybe finally getting strength. I'll never formally leave.... but...
Great video. Could've watched another 2 hours.
Well done!!
"Not with our effort we're not."
Oh, so _with_ our effort we still are? I wonder if he meant "WITH our effort we're not."
You’re videos are very interesting. I’m surprised you are LDS. From the many LDS that I have talked to don’t usually deviant from their prophets teachings or disagree with them so strongly.
Well, I'm trying to break the mould! Thanks for watching!
NEMO THE MORMON @,THE TRUTH WILL SET U FREE. GOD IS GREAT. GOD DOESN'T WANT ANYONE TO BE DECEIVED. THE DEVIL IS A DECEIVER.
Nice job!
That's high praise! Thank you kindly!
Before 1990 or ever did or has the church never enacted penalties of death. This is a total misunderstanding the temple ceremony. By the way I received Mr endowment before 1990. Elder Holand is telling the truth.
Hi, Nemo. I want to "flesh out an idea" that Holland absolutely fails at: providing Sweeney with "smoke & mirrors", instead.
And, that idea has to do with "shunning", in the Church.
Holland flatly denies "the practice of shunning" (note: this is not an exact quote, as you can see, but it serves to let the reader know that I know what was in Holland's head!)
ELDER HOLLAND could, if challenged, claim plausible deniability, here (with this topic) as he did in other parts of this interview. If PRESSED on it-- which is something Sweeney didn't do, in this case-- Jeffrey Holland would have "clarified" that the LDS Church doesn't practice SHUNNING as a disciplinary action and administrative procedure: like they do among the Amish (here in the States).
For the Amish, "shunning" has specific parameters (and time limits), as a means of discipline in that religion. And, Holland knows that!
What Sweeney was really asking was whether or not individuals were treated like dirt and made to feel "no longer welcome", by the collective body of a ward/stake.
(This is very different from what the Amish do: and, when Mormons do it, it constitutes emotional abuse.)
Holland LITERALLY "played the Dodo", here, too!
Thanks for adding that!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
May I add an "addendum", here, as an afterthought?
Actually, what came to mind, just now, is an actual (prominent) incidence of shunning that took place at the other end of the valley from where Phoenix, Arizona is situated: in the "East Valley" predominantly-Mormon, large metropolis of Mesa: this city having a substantially higher percentage of members than
many areas of the "LDS stronghold of Utah".
[This is just to put things into perspective, at the beginning of this narrative.]
There was, in Mesa, Arizona, in the mid-1980s, a well- known (but quiet) gentleman of LDS ancestry named Norman Hancock. He was an honorable, hard-working man who had his own business (i.e., a plumber or electrician, I don't recall), there in the city of Mesa.
He was an unassuming man who quietly did his duty as a home teacher, in the Church; and, he was a direct descendant of Levi Hancock (who is mentioned in the D&C).
Norman "tolerated" that odd "celebrity status" (i.e., the adulation and preferential treatment) that people received, whose ancestors were noteworthy characters in the "early Church".
Hancock, in the 1980s, enjoyed a thriving business among the (largely Mormon) citizenry: there, east of Phoenix.
NOTE: I was in Phoenix in the last half of the '80s; but, I didn't hear about Hancock until the early '90s...
Anyway, Norman was a good man and full of empathy towards people: so, as an understanding person, he made a good home teacher.
He provided a good "listening ear" to a struggling divorcée with children. After he was released as her home teacher, he agreed to meet her at a public place (a restaurant), on occasion, to offer his good advice (or to just listen), from time-to-time.
THE RUMOR MILL began to "work overtime", in his ward: and, soon, there were members peeping into (i.e., looking through) his windows, to see if he was having an affair with this woman!
Well, now! We see that the Strengthening the Members Committee isn't the only group to "spy on its members"!
Members spying on members! Who knew?!
To condense the story, Hancock was excommunicated, based on rumor. His ward "emotionally blackmailed" him; shunned him; and, refused to continue to do business with him. As a result, his business failed.
There are many more (ugly) details, which I will forego, here.
The story only serves to confirm that Elder Holland had lied about LDS shunning, in that BBC interview.
(Note: The larger the membership, within the total population of a geographical area, the greater the likelihood that there will be shunning, within Mormondom.)
Epilogue: Hancock was exonerated by The First Presidency but was told to go back to his stake president, to get his "blessings restored".
(The stake president, who knew it was actually HE who had the power to "give" or "take away" blessings, refused to do the right thing...like the good Pharisee that he was!)
I wasn't surprised then, and I'm not surprised now...
...and the SAGA continues, in Mormondumb.
GOD doesn't shun u. Run to him, run from that church. God is great. Have a blessed day.
Your videos are the absolute best. I hope this channel continues to grow!
I hope so too! Cheers!
A cult is any organized religion.
I am with Elder Holland: why would someone stay in a church if they think the church is a cult?
They are brain washed. God is great. The devil is a deceiver.
So what's _your_ take on the whole "cult" thing, Mr. "still a Mormon" (for the moment, at least)? Are we, or are we not, a cult, and how do _you_ back up _your_ reply?
Elder Holland is visibly nervous right from the get-go.
I would be too if I was going up against John Sweeney! Doubly so if every other journalist I encountered was pussy footing around me.
a house divided can not stand
Could we please borrow John Sweeney for a while? At least until, say, January 21, 2025? He is a better interviewer and journalist than 95% of US news-critters.
One difference between a religion and a cult is that religions tolerate and mostly ignore any critics and naysayers, and just move forward with those who have common beliefs. Cults, on the other hand, have very little tolerance for members who question or criticize the organization or its leaders, and will move to punish and penalize offenders in many ways, usually making it as public and painful as possible. Social pressure is a powerful tool, and one that cults depend upon heavily for their status and longevity.
I don't find that to be accurate. As a local lay leader for many decades, I have witnessed immense tolerance for alternative beliefs. There were situations in which I suspect excommunication could have been called for by one person or another, but leaders felt the need to be patient and let the person's beliefs and behaviors play themselves out one way or another. More likely, I would observe a cult of one person being belligerent, thinking they were smarter than everyone else, rather than a cult of church policy or practices.
To your point, of course, social pressure to conform is present, just as it is present on a school playground, or in a sports team. If one is around other people that they don't want to be around or be like, then its on them to find a group that works for them. They should not expect that an entire church or even a ward revolve around them and them alone. We teach what we teach in order to find and give fellowship to those whose personal beliefs and practices align with and are uplifted by the doctrines of Christ. Those who express feelings to the contrary do not typically join in the first place.
@@networkteacher1 Fun to say that, but there have been LOTS of excommunications and disfellowships involving naysayers, and particularly the more well-known ones (sometimes identified as "intellectuals")--and since gossip is a huge factor in most church settings (wards and stakes, primarily) the phenomenon of what amounts to informal disfellowship is real. If you're not in with the in-crowd, then you're very often deemed dangerously "inactive" or "off the deep end" or "off the rails." Also, there's a strong tendency for anyone who criticizes any teaching, pronouncement, program, etc., to be categorized as "not believing in the doctrines of Christ," as you've kinda pointed out in your response. What I've noticed is that "the Church" primarily teaches the doctrines of men and goes heavily into the micro-management of people's lives, but when they reach a sticky point with anything, THEN they roll out Christ, and claim that any critics are surely not aligned with the Savior or his teachings. Maybe this explains why so many who "leave the Church" tend to often conclude that they must then in fact be atheists. These days, nearly all meetings (Sacrament, etc.) are just a rehash of some general conference talk by someone, and fast and testimony meetings are people jumping up and saying what they "know" to be true, when in fact many of them are lying as instructed, since people like Packer and Oaks have taught that the way to gain or strengthen a testimony is to DECLARE the testimony; I guess the idea is that if you lie in public enough, at some point you'll have even yourself believing it.
@@joetaylor8687 Cousin, I think you are missing the bigger picture of how we humans really are. If you work for someone and don't really believe in the company's mission, sooner or later, you are encouraged to find another job, to put it politely.
However, the church is different in the sense that we have no desire to see people leave, none at all. I've been in 5 bishoprics, and I can only remember two church courts in 45 years, and I don't even remember the circumstances anymore. Neither resulted in excommunication. There have been people who asked to have their membership removed, which except for a confirming call from the Bishop, was honored without delay. Does that sound like a cult?
On the flip side, we do all we can to encourage embracing the critical elements of Christ's atonement along with a commitment to share that message, both in service as well as evangelism. If you are not seeing that these past few years, pay closer attention. But, let me throw you a bone. If you go back a few decades, you can certainly see that there has been an adjustment to better support members as opposed to members supporting the church. The church is more responsive to individual needs, talents, proclivities, challenges, and there is greater willingness to contribute to causes that help mankind. The cooperativeness with other churches, Red Cross, etc., in natural disasters is a case in point, close to a billion dollars of it last year, exceeded only by the biggest Christian church on the planet, and not by much. My guess is that earlier decades lacked the resources to make that kind of outreach possible.
As for micro-management...really? How many 'sisters' would put up with that? You know the answer. None. They can barely put up with it from their husbands, and probably with good reason. If you are married, you know. Am I right? And, by most accounts, I am the loudest, most obnoxious voice in Sunday School and Priesthood. I've never once been told to keep my opinions to myself. And, believe me, I could do a little better at self policing. For example, I have a pet peeve about saying 'The church is true'. I have no problem declaring 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true', but I can see that the church is still evolving to improve and adapt, as it should. And I do believe it is led by inspiration, though sometimes with a teaspoon of desperation for nursery help and pianists. And that frustration is just an observation born of experience with imperfect members like myself who, for some reason, take free agency seriously. 🙂
Ok, to be sure, I have been in wards that were not as warm as mine. But your description just doesn't describe my ward, which has a lot of human melting pot flavors to it. Its a wonderful and growing group with love and miracles that people are anxious to share every Sunday, not just Fast Sunday. Maybe I won the ward membership lottery, but it could also be that really trying to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually makes a difference! What a concept that would be!
@@networkteacher1 I agree that "the Church" is changing: ruclips.net/video/4X9p6s2Tlq0/видео.html
@@networkteacher1 This is where a lot of critics of the Church shoot themselves in the foot and lose credibility: They equate the Church with conservative values and Republican politics, and I don't think most of the hierarchy at headquarters is really all that conservative anymore. Plus, conservative values represent progress and productivity, and there are lots of reasons why people believe that liberalism is a form of mental illness, since it usually advocates everything that parallels predatory and parasitic behavior and beliefs.
Are you looking at this with both eyes? 😊
Yeah, but if he is open, and said anyone can make a claim, but xxx then you would get a fuller story
14:27 what he was saying in his head: I chose to be a part of this church because of the fat check I get every year from people's tithes
Great stuff!! Thanks as always :)
You’re welcome!
Nemo the Mormon, I am a bit stunned that the LDS church has not excommunicated or at least disfellowshipped you yet! That has always been the LDS answer to anyone who openly criticized the church. I'm wondering if they are looking for another means of dealing with you that won't turn you into a martyr for exposing the laundry list of issues. Are you prepared (emotionally) for the strong possibility that you will be drawn before a church council, and be excommunicated? My perspective (though no one is asking for it) is that doing so would do much greater harm to the organization, because 1) they would lose a brilliant, though disillusioned, member, and 2) you would surely go on to join the growing army of ex-Mormon critics of their church. You could do them much more damage from the outside where they will lose much of their power over you.
I'm prepared, although I wonder if it will ever happen?
@@NEMOTHEMORMONI love your channel and your excellent commentary on the many logistical fallacies used in defense of Joseph Smith and church doctrine and practices. I have come to respect you so much that I am emotionally on the fence as to whether I would rather see you free from the LDS church and free to find a Christian church that allows freedom to grow and question doctrine (which would also mean the extreme suffering of being shunned and removed), or if it would be better for you to stay and avoid the pain yet still be a voice for truth and reason. I just pray that you are blessed in all you do. Never abandon your quest for truth and love, because God's greatest attributes are God's unassailable truth and God's eternal love.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON What's the point of deep diving into an interview? If you believe Holland is lying, leave the church. If you don't have a testimony, leave the church. Just find your peace. If you're a member and you believe in the gospel, why are you wasting your time doing videos like this instead of, you know, doing good things to uplift people around you? The problem I see here is that you're trying to apply empirical evidence to eternal truths of an esoteric nature. A rational empiricist should know that the existence of a supreme deity cannot be proved or disproved.
@@frey-n-zel why do you assume he is wasting his time? The world isn’t black and white, in or out. Nemo has helped a lot of people with his efforts and his goals are all admirable
I can appreciate Nemo's candor and line of questioning without it shaking my faith. But, my faith is in Christ, not Elder Holland. I am fan of Elder Holland's conference messages and uplifting way of witnessing for Christ. But, he is human and the nit picking of Sweeney and subsequently, Nemo, exposed a lack of preparedness for the interview on Elder Holland's part. Sometimes, the best answer is, 'Can I get back to you on that?' I am terrible when trying to think on my feet, so I have no room to criticize and I admire those those who, in the heat of the moment, come up with clever responses. Jesus was certainly known for that. But, its not fair to expect the rest of us to be so perfected.
Great example of the power of professional journalism. Sweeny did his homework.
Sweeney is a legend!
I would have been interested to hear holland explain the reasoning behind baptising Adolph hitler, pol pot, and stalin.
Nemo, you would love a book called “spy the lie”. Written by former CIA polygraph technicians. The techniques they explain can expose the LDS leaders “stories” beautifully.
I'll be sure to check it out!
A real journalist!
Nemo. Thank you
Haha, his back-peddling and fumbling during the attempts to deceive or play dumb is actually kind of funny.
It's funny until you realise just how easily he's been caused to struggle, and yet there are people who follow his every word unwaveringly!
@salsus...
I will interject, here:
When I first saw this interview (those years ago), I noticed how Holland played dumb (viz., played the Dodo) whenever it suited him!
And, then, later on, he looks both "wounded" and "indignant", saying, "You think I'm a Dodo?"
(excuse me if my quote isn't an exact quote).
My response to Elder Holland's "indignant accusation" would be this:
"Well, yeah, Elder Holland! You've been playing the role of a dodo the whole time, you disingenuous creep!"
@@ahashdahnagila6884 that's a good observation.
Why does it feel like this guy is channeling Gordon Jumps character from WKRP? Whenever that character stammered over truths