Fake Grade A Lithium Deep Cycle Batteries Are Everywhere! Learn How To Spot Grade B vs Grade A
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- Watch this before buying your next LFP deep cycle battery. Most on the market are fakes, especially ones being parroted by certain RUclipsrs and influencers. I'll show you how to prove it economically OR what information to request from the manufacturer to verify the veracity of their claims. #lithium #lithiumbattery #battery
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I paid $408 for an American brand 200ah 12v AGM battery for my camper van 2½ years ago. Now it's only able to hold 64% SOC. As of today (July, 2023) i can by a Chinese 200ah lithium battery for $50 more than i paid for my AGM. Yes, it's likely grade B cells, but even if it lasts only 5 years instead of 10 i'm still well ahead of that crsppy AGM. My budget won't let me buy Battle Borns for four times the price. The Victron crowd can buy the expensive ones and show off their superior setups.
It is tempting, for sure. As long as you know what you are buying and don't believe the claims of 5,000 cycles or 10-11 year warranties then more power to you.
I bought a Chinese product called power queen batteries, they seem very good. The reviews seem very positive and the customer service has reached out to me to ask how their products are working. I'm very happy with the 100ah mini batteries
I've got a couple Elefast 100ah Batteries to run in series coming tomorrow to finally upgrade from the quickly sulfating and constantly maintaining FLA's. I saw the insides and operations on a video with them seeming high quality for the cost. I found them for about 2/3 the cost I was expecting, so they safely fell within what I can spend right now to begin keeping the refrigerator running 24/7 and get the air conditioner running more than a few hours a day a few days a week before the summer in Florida gets too miserable. Saving up is stupid, as I may get "A" grade cells as advertised, or afford to replace them a couple times for the same price later, or buy better when times are better.
@@LDSreliance Find a utube video on the exact battery you want to buy. There is a handfull of utubers that dissect batteries, and tell you what's inside, based on their expierance.
@@stevecarlisle3323 A teardown does nothing other than a visual look at the inside construction. These companies are extremely good at hiding the Grade B cells to the point of laser etching a fake label/QR code, etc.
i was wondering if they should just be dismissed as "fake" or simply take the fact that they are not actually gradeA into consideration. I can accept the existence of lower grades for a respectively lower price.
Very good point...I'm fine paying half price for a battery that will last half as long. With technology advancing so rapidly, do I really need a product to last 10 years just to be obsolete then
Agreed! And with the warranty, one can make an argument that you can simply replace your battery with another "Grade A" before the warranty expires.
@@jime9305 or how much wear will you actually use it for? if its for a diy power station that you use every other weekend camping and it gets fully cycled lets say 6 times a month thats 72 cycles a year. thats 720 cycles in 10 years well below a grade Bs life span. 10 years is an eternity in battery tech.
@@MrSGL21 sure beets liquid acid that all i get is grade B i don,t let them get below 98% 5 year and going great
I read the reviews because I figured most people were going to say the same thing that I'm about to. And once you said you probably will not notice the degrading of power until well over a thousand cycles. Then I say hell for $300 if I get four or five years out of it still puts me at a lower cost than $2,000 to get 10 years. Now I do know and I'm sure that's what you are getting at it is a gamble because you may only get two years out of it. But you may only get four or five years out of your very expensive battery. And what a lot of people don't notice about those very long extended warranties is after the first couple of years they usually go into a prorated system so it's going to cost you money to replace it anyway
Lucky, theres still good people out there such as this channel providing facts and real information. Thanks man
You are most welcome. I appreciate the feedback and support!
Yup. He opened my eyes!
I just purchased 2 EPOCH Lithium batteries for my bass boat. One 12v 120ah cranking battery and one 36v 100ah trolling motor battery. Spent $2800. As in everything you buy, you get what you pay for. I really appreciate you being honest about the differences in grade B and grade A. Made me feel better about my purchase
Personally, I think that is a good decision. A lot of people are perfectly fine rolling the dice on some no-name stuff on Amazon (or Li Time, which is a different soap box) and saving a bunch of money. But I talk to fishermen every week that bought cheapo lithiums in the past and now are looking for a quality battery worth having after only a few seasons. There is a reason why Jacob Wheeler is using MillerTech's (the same set for 3 years now, I believe).
You paid away to much!
@@LDSreliancemy sok's have been going for years now!
@@gilianrampart8514 Buy Once, Cry Once 💴💴💴💴
Lithium for a starting battery is just ridiculous waste of money.
Very usefull information it is thanks to people like you that consumers learn how to buy better or at least take chances knowing the quality they are buying.
That is the goal. I am glad you appreciate it. I'm not saying those batteries are garbage... just you need to know what they are when you are buying them.
It depends on how you use them, for my trolling motor that only gets used on the weekends iam only charging twice a week for 7 months then storing my boat over winter. So lets say 56 cycles a year, 20 years later its only at 1,120 cycles! Ill gladly pay the 400 bucks vs the 900 bucks!
The chemistry only last about 6 years. Please check the actual factory websites for expected life span.
In your use case, that is a pretty good deal. For someone living in their van or spending their summers in their cabin or someone who is a fishing guide or park ranger that would be different. Also, since the Grade B cells vary in specs the BMS has to work harder. And since most of the bargain basement Grade B batteries use cheap $10 BMS's, it is a roll of the dice whether you are going to even get your 1100 cycles out of that battery or whether the capacity doesn't start degrading after 100 cycles.
Great video! This will save some headaches!!! This is why I build my own batteries. I buy cells and i ALWAYS demand internal resistance measurements or the deal does not go through. If the cells arrive and the IR is inconsistent or drastically different than disclosed, I will file a dispute. One must rememebr, its not just about amp hours or capacity... you must also rememebr that IR changes with SOC, so one must charge all cells to the same voltage to compare IR meausrements. You must also use a special meter to measure AC impedance that uses (generally) a 1khz sample. This is what most manufacturers list in their spec sheets for internal AC impedance.
Yep, which is why almost no one does the tests properly, especially RUclipsrs that do teardown reviews and declare the cells "Grade A". And then push affiliate sales of those batteries for commissions. It is a big racket and almost no one is exposing it.
Thank you. You've given me something else to consider before buying.
There was an older video of Wil Prowse tearing apart an inexpensive TimeUSB Lifepo4 battery and showing used grade B cells. One can only assume other brands from asia have similar builds. One thing I noticed is that ratings of these "used" batteries are still very good and the prices are discounted to reflect the lower quality. The main concern is the longevity (cycles) of the battery. Hopefully you can still get between 3-4000 cycles out of them.
I agree with you, for the most part. However, there is an additional concern that can be minor or can be severe, depending on the company. Not all Grade B batteries are the same. Some have a very minor variation from Grade A. Others have multiple variations or a severe variation. Both can be rejected and classified as Grade B and sold in bulk/surplus to battery builders. SFK (Sun Fun Kits) and others here on RUclips are showing real testing data with some of these cells with very wide variations in performance. The better Grade B cells can perform almost as well as a Grade A. The bad Grade B cells suffer massive voltage drop and severe capacity loss when operating above 0.5C, let alone at 1C.
Will Prowse has several YT videos tearing down "cheap LiFePO4 100AH" batteries. He found a number actually had Grade A cells and well-built inside. So assumption these are all "fake" is NOT TRUE
I gave this video a like, but I really dislike the scam these people are running.
Agreed.
I had no idea that there were different grades.😮 Thank you for this priceless information! 👍😎
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
Having lived off grid for 2o yrs with large deep cycle lead acid batteries ,I can't justify the price of other types, I have stuck with the matinece style and found as long as you keep an eye on fluid levels and don't abuse them, ie deeply discharge ,I've had them last between 5 and 7 year s find a brand that works for you and stick with them ,much the same as tyres you get what you pay for and buy local seems sensible thanks for your help it's a learning curve but all well worth the effort in the long term
Modern LFP batteries are actually lower cost and last far longer with more retained capacity that large lead acid. You can buy good quality LFP battery modules for less than $1500 per 5kWh with a 10yr warranty. We stopped using lead acid about 5 years ago for off-grid projects, they are just too high cost, too high maintenance, and actual capacity degrades relatively quickly.
Thankyou. Very well done -- Great pacing, You stuck to facts and avoided being preachy; Just the right amount of technical; honesty regarding your knowledge limitations made for excellent credibility. A truly outstanding job -- many a RUclipsr could learn much from you.
Hey, I really appreciate that. I aim for that balance on all of my content. But that is why I have 100k subs and the preachy, polished, affiliate/endorsement saturated channels have closer to 1M. Oh well, that's the game, right?
When someone else is selling the same type of product, the competitions product will always be called inferior. Some companies just sell more products at lower prices rather than fewer products at higher prices. Lower price doesn't always mean lower quality.
Because they are inferior. There has never been a company that sells higher quality products for lower prices relative to the competition. Or lower quality products for higher prices. At least not for very long. In the former, the competition will lower their prices to compensate. In the latter, the company goes out of business when their reputation catches up.
Good point about battery rating, especially if you want top performance. Still as you say at 2:30 there may be only slight differences. Grading of parts is done in many electronic components like semiconductors. You may not always need an A student when the B student does the job. You don't wastefully throw out all you B quality product when you can still make money selling it cheaper. The reason Waterford Crystal is so expensive is they destroy everything except A quality. You are paying for their rejects.
Exactly. These batteries are fine Grade B batteries. But consumers need to know that is what they are so they can make their own decision. When a company makes it seem like they are a half price Grade A battery and the customers expects 4,000+ cycles... that is where we have a problem.
@@LDSreliance so what kind of cycle life should we expect for a good Grade B at 100% DOD and 80% DOD?
@@ericklein5097 He can't tell you because he won't test them.
@@ericklein5097, even if you loose 20% of lifespan it's still cheaper to replace them, since they only cost half then price. If you over build your system, which you should anyway, and don't discharge the batteries to low than you're better off with grade b batteries. From the financial standpoint.
@@ericklein5097 Assuming it's an honest/accurate measurement, I've seen some cheap lifepo4 batteries advertising ">2000 cycles".
Thanks for the vid, Chinese markets and products are so hard to read. We need more professionals like you out there!
Thanks, I appreciate the support.
Thanks. The average person like me would have no idea they are being lied too. When lm ready to buy battery I will remember your advice
And that is why I do these. Hopefully a few more people like yourself stop and think before they buy. Not that Grade B batteries are awful. Just know what you are buying.
Thanks! I'd love to see this video updated with current pricing.
This is exactly why I bought Battle Born Batteries as they were put together in the states with their own BMS and of course their own stringent quality control.
Yes, they’re expensive, but if I’m going to hook up batteries to go off grid, I want to make sure they don’t burn my house down.
Every component I used wasn’t cheap, but I don’t have any restless nights wondering if everything’s going to go bad.
So I use Victron for everything else. As far as panels, go, it’s where you can get them and I’m definitely not an expert in those.
Are you like part of some kind of cult?
@@OurResistance
The cult of common sense! 🤣
Panels .. been using FRED 480 for 10 years (SEE EBAY) .. USA BUILT and each flashed w documents .. still around $1/watt , great sellers also .
Awesome summary dude.
I got to pretty much the same conclusion by asking loads of questions.
I finally understood grade A means grade A and storage grade means the factory QC failed stuff at the best or used cells re-wrapped at worst.
Thankfully I got EVE 105 Cells directly from eve at $51.50 a piece. With the factory testing certificates etc. $0.15ish per watt. Not bad I suppose.
Very nice! I'm going to be reviewing a battery built with EVE cells soon, as a matter of fact.
@@LDSreliance will make sure to watch it!
As a South African your channels information has been greatly appreciated as we have an absolute mess of a battery , inverter , solar industry with many shady practices.
Yeah it is very bad. When the average homeowner or consumer knows very little about a technology, that is when the bad people take advantage of that ignorance.
I've found there to be lots of problems with solar charge controllers especially also. Its difficult to sort through the trash on those. And many are overpriced on the other end.
@@noahriding5780 Oh for sure. If it is less than $100 and says MPPT on it then run away.
This was very informative. Besides the price, you can also look at their warranties. When a company guarantees an LFP battery for a year, they are basically saying that you may get as few as 400 cycles. A good grade A cell can get 5K to 6K cycles going to 80% DOD, and 10K or more cycles if you just go to 50%. I would also bet that quite a bit of the Chinese Grade A cells may have been grade A when they were manufactured, but they have already been used for as many cycles as possible in another application until the new grade A cell just barely meets the grade A spec, or even worse, just barely meets a grade B spec. Thanks!
Very true. Thanks for the comment!
Even with a long warranty, how do we know they will be around for 10 more years? If their batteries start failing in 2-5 years, they’ll just close up shop.
I remember many many years ago, a company selling PowerBook external battery packs announced that they had screwed up. Their charging circuitry was defective, it was damaging the battery cells, you should stop using them, they didn’t have enough money to replace them, and they were closing down.
When you have one single product, and the question is whether you might need to replace every single product you’ve sold…your warranty promises aren’t going to help.
You point to an Amperetime as a grade B yet Will Prowse actually took some part and was so impressed that they were the number 2 rated battery on his web site for a long time.
Being impressed with the construction does not equate to Grade A cells. The MillerTech Economy series is top shelf inside, too, but is still made with Grade B cells to compete on the lower end of the market with the others. But at least they are honest about it.
@@LDSreliance Did you go watch his video? I believe he tells you if the cells are Grade A or Grade B.
Yes, I have seen the video that you are referring to. My point is that he cannot possibly know that they are Grade A or Grade B by looking at them. He did not disassemble the battery and test the cells. Nor did he show any documentation from the manufacturer that shows those cells and their testing results. If you ask that information from a true Grade A battery manufacturer they are happy to provide that documentation to show that they are top shelf components. AmpereTime, CHINS, and others cannot and will not provide that information to you if you ask. I know that because I have had them contact me to review their batteries and we had exactly that conversation.
Can you tell grade A or B by testing?
I Own ( 4 ) Ampere Time 100Ah LiPo4 Batteries. They work flawlessly for me, whatever grade you want to give them !
So which brands should I consider for a power supply in my truck for camping and which brands would you recommend we steer clear of? Thanks for the informative video!!
There are lots of reputable brands out there. I would look for a company that has US-based telephone support, has an established brand name and reputation to protect, has third party, and real people that are saying the products are good (look on Reddit or internet forums or other sites where real people are giving opinions and not just Amazon reviews or places where fake or paid-for reviews are common). Then ask yourself, does the product pass the smell test? Is it too good to be true? Remember, you are going to get what you pay for. Even if your favorite RUclips influencer says the battery is awesome, if it is $400 on Amazon it will not be the same as an $800 unit of the same size from a company with a lot to lose by lying.
I am obviously biased, but I have been selling MillerTech lithium batteries for 5 years and think they are among the best in the US. Take a look at my web store and watch some of my videos if you are interested: store.ldsreliance.com/
Thanks for sharing you get what you pay for well done
Thanks, Anthony!
Thanks for the information. I am a shoestring budget individual ,and I use what flooded lead acid batteries for my small battery bank. The comparison difference between the battery types is wild,but I am forced to stick with the more affordable flooded type battery. I did learn some good information though and will reconmend your video to anybody I hear that's buying batteries.
Thanks for the feedback! I am glad you found it useful. I always recommend GC2 batteries from Sam's Club or Costco to folks on a shoestring budget. That is how I started and they are built like tanks. They are designed for golf carts and cost about $90 a piece usually. Thanks again!
@@LDSreliance Thank you for responding. Ive got six interstate GC2-ECL-UT that were given to me
@@LDSreliance, Sam's Club yes, as their batteries are made by EastPenn, which is a good company. Costco, no, as their batteries are made by Johnson Controls, which are garbage and don't last long. Interstate is also now made by Johnson Controls, garbage, with a one to two year life expectancy...
Interesting.
One thing for sure; be they A or B quality, hopefully by the time they fail something better will have come along by then. I will hedge my bets with a mixture of the two and hope for the best. Just Can't afford all top shelf batteries. Too expensive....
One can only hope! I just don't want people to invest $450 and think they are getting a battery that is going to last them 20 years. I understand not being able to afford the price tag, for sure.
@@LDSreliance What about good quality 6 volt AGM batteries for my RV? Can you recommend a few good brands?
In a similar situation to you and share the same perspective. On the Chinese non OEM certified B is sold for A and if you really want an A in that loose market you have to ask for A+ and draft a contract that guarantees the test data.
Yep. It is quite a mess and very frustrating.
Very useful information, thanks for a great video
You are welcome. Thanks Louis!
The eve 304ah lifepo is about 100-110$ pr cell direct from factory, so 400-440$ pr 12,8v 304ah battery. Ofc, then shipping, custom, busbars ect.. but.. kinda good price. I plan on getting them next after seeing many technical in-depth testing of them. Superb performance.
Eve makes good stuff. You can DIY a battery like that for $1000-1200, I would bet. But a commercially available battery of the same capacity where they have to make a profit and pay employees to do the assembly work that you are going to do, etc. would have to charge $2,000-2,400+ for that same battery to make it worth their time.
@@LDSreliance i can get 4 cells locally in ph for 135$ each.. 50$ for a daly bms if i like.. it can be done cheap, very cheap :) dont need a box, lots of space on my shelf still :)
Yes if you are willing to make sacrifices you can get something that performs the same for much less.
Thank you for taking the time to tell this sad story.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
Very informative video. Thanks for this.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Thanks for the information, I learned a lot.
You are welcome! Thanks for watching.
Over 1,000 cycles for $200? I'm in there. My thought has been that only time will tell on these LiFePO4. I have a popular pre-made power station running most of my house all the time, and a 5 kwh system made with LiTime minis. I work them both pretty hard and have taken the homemade system to 0 somewhere between 10 and 20 times. I'm saving over $1,000 a year on electricity (California), so my payoff should happen before the systems fail, but the learning experience has been priceless. I would have never ventured into a do-it-yourself system if I was paying over $500 per battery.
There is about a 20% failure rate with Grade B cells, on average, so if you have a prismatic battery with 4 cells then the likelihood of the battery reaching its full cycle count is 40.96%. I'll stick with the $700 batteries, myself.
But the point of the video is that consumers should be told what they are buying and not fed marketing lies. Because you get to decide your risk tolerance and risk/reward for your application, which you have done, and I get to decide mine.
@@LDSreliance I never believe the hype. Remember Optima batteries? I'm in the hazardous waste business, and those things were all over the household hazardous waste collection right after they came out in the early 2000s. I've had two of those, and notice no difference in longevity between those and the formerly $85 now $100 Interstate batteries they sell at Costco.
Agreed. I think we will get to a point in a few years where people will start to see the longevity and quality difference and then they can make educated decisions for themselves. But we aren't there yet and that is why I am putting out these videos. I don't blame anyone for buying Grade B batteries. I have 3 of them in use right now on production solar panel systems and they have been great. But people need to know what is what they are buying and not get them confused with the top shelf stuff.
Very very interesting keep keep up the good work.
Thanks, Tim!
The world is full of $hit and is disgusting how people treat each other.
GREED!
Thanks for this video. Me and my father has been researching about LiFePo4 battery for about two months now. But we still get confused by all the stuff listed on Alibaba. Gotta say that the Chinese are not being honest on this section of their economy.
As just two normal persons with average knowledge about batteries, it is quite hard for us to find out which ones are real and which company is trying to cheat us.
Videos like this help alot. Thank you again! Also subbed to ur channel.
No, they are not. Alibaba is basically for experienced buyers only. You have to know what you are buying and how to tell that. And you have to know who the reputable sellers are.
Thanks for the sub! If you want to build your own that is a totally different direction than buying a complete battery that is ready to run. So that would be your first decision to make. Once you make that, I can try to help point you in the right direction.
I am planning to build my own battery any help is appreciated please thank you 👍🏼
Very helpful, you have confirmed my suspicions on these low priced offers, great vlog top effort, very professional presentation,
Thanks, Mark!
often when weight is compared the capacity of the lithium battery can be 3ah vs 9ah of the lead acid. and the lithium is usually at least double the price.
Great info subscribed 🧨
Thanks! I appreciate that.
Nice video! Very good information.
Thanks, Chris! I appreciate it.
Hi from Aussie great vid, Thinging of purchasing TWO Renogy 100amp lithium batteries over here to replace my Two old AGM,s for my motorhome are thay a good buy look forward to hear from you thanks again kept the good work 👍
You mean like the RBT100LFP12S-US? That is a true Grade A battery. But they may have a Grade B lineup of batteries, too, like MillerTech does. So pay attention to the specs and if they don't say anything, look at the price point.
Thanks again the batteries are the RBT100lfp125- that say 100amp continues draw with pouch cells and the big thing for 5 year warranty Renogy have BIG going over here, the lithium Game is a different ANIMAL For me thanks again.
5 year prorated is bad. $629 AUD is bad. I'm 99% sure that is Grade B.
Remember, things do get cheaper over time. It's now 2024-06-22 and I just bought 3 "grade A" 100AH 12 volt batteries with bluetooth BMS (100A charge and discharge). These will replace the 2 6 volt golf cart batteries (230 AH) which I paid $500 for about 1 year ago. It seems that leaving them on my float charger cooked them. Oh, and the year before that? SAME THING. Lead acid and AGM are just too fragile for the marine environment. If you discharge a lead acid battery too far, it's going to be quickly damaged. But the lifepo4 batteries have much lower self discharge and I will be massively increasing my house battery storage, charging current and discharge current for just 20% more than re-re-re buying the deep cycle golf cart garbage batteries.
As someone said below, even if I only get HALF the life of a grade A setup for this kind of money, it is a steal of a deal compared to having to screw around with lead acid ever again.
Yes, very interesting. If I was going to space, then I would want the premium batteries since failure really costs a lot. But if I am using batteries for power backup during occasional power outages to run my freezer and frig, then I think I can get by with a grade B or probably even a grade C battery. It is like with tools: if I have a quick home job and need a tool just for that, Harbor Freight is good enough, but if I'm a professional mechanic making a living at fixing things, then I'll go for Snap-On.
Perhaps you could expand the video to say just when does someone need a grade A premium battery, and when is a low-priced piece-of-junk battery actually good enough. I just bought an Elefast 100 Ah battery to back up my frig. I saw no claim as to battery grade, and neither have I noticed such in other brands.
Another problem is that if you pay a premium price, you still don't know if you got a grade A system. It could be a piece of junk sold at a high price. If you buy a cheap battery, at least you know what you are getting.
But, good video with good info. Thanks!
Absolutely. If space is not an issue and you don't need to run high loads on the batteries, buy a pallet of cheapos. That makes a lot of sense. But that isn't most people. Most people are buying a couple for the trolling motor on their bass boat or as house batteries for an RV. People buying them for solar are buying rack mounted ones or large format ones from companies like BatteryEVO. There aren't cheapo versions of those large format batteries (yet). I am sure there are Grade B brands that aren't telling you they are Grade B, but we aren't seeing the flood of bargain basement, volume based sellers like we see on Amazon for the Group 29 and Group 31 size formats.
After reading so many horror stories about grid tie inverters and other components I'm thinking of getting a gasoline generator for the high load hours and an Ecoflow for the quiet hours.
Ecoflow....Lots of money for little capacity
Great information. But you cannot definitely say higher price mean grade A. Unfortunately everything is made in China and if you don't I have a brand QA representative at the factory doing audits constantly, spreadsheets and information can be skewed. Find a brand that hires a full-time QA that audits the controls and manufacturing.
No but you can definitely say impossibly low price equals Grade B.
Any opinions on Amped Outdoors batteries? Was thinking about getting two 36v 50AH batteries to run my trolling motor-- hooking them up in parallel.
thx.
I have no direct experience with them but clues from their website and pricing would indicate that they are most likely quality batteries with Grade A cells. But, again, I don't know for sure.
I had no idea. Thank you
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
Very good information.
Quick question. Is there a problem with hooking 2 12v li po batteries in series if neither one has been in service and one is a year older that the other. Both will be fully balanced and connect to use for a 24v inverter. Both Amperetime batteries.
LiPo? Do they have an internal BMS? Are they the same model number?
@@LDSreliance yes both internal BMS and they are bought a year apart. Both 12v both 200ah both are amprere time. They both have a sticker on them with a different number. Not sure if it is model or SN
You should be fine then if they both have a BMS.
@@LDSreliance thank you. It didn't make since that you would have to replace a whole battery bank if one battery went bad. Thanks for taking the time to reply
You are welcome. Good luck and thanks for watching!
You helped me avoid making a significant financial mistake. I'll admit I had no idea there were grade A and B batteries. Education is power! Now I know the difference (hopefully). I often say folks step over dollar bills to pick up nickels. This is one of those comparisons. Buy it once, or buy it 4 times.
I am glad I could help! Just understand that Grade B batteries are not trash. They can be quite good. But they will never match the full performance and longevity of a Grade A battery. So the customer should know that up front so they can make an informed decision based on their preferences, needs, and budget. That was my only point. Good luck!
How do you know those expensive premium batteries are actually using grade A cells? If I was a seller and really wanted to hoodwink someone, I could just charge a premium price. Who would know the difference?
I bought 8 battle born 3 years ago .they are in 2s4p ,24v ,400 amp bank in my solar system ..they work great, stay balenced with proper charging technique and deliver about 105% of rated power. I don’t care what they cost, I care that they work so well.
I dislike BattleBorn's marketing department and the founders/ownership group of the company but I do have respect for their build quality. They are one of the few using Grade A batteries and producing a quality product that will last a long time with extremely rare exceptions. And they have been around longer than most.
Thanks for the informative video. I've recently joined an RV business in Sweden and got contacted by a Chinese supplier that offers grade a 12V 100Ah batteries at 200 dollars unit price. However I got the samples and the testing result was very good. The saleperson from that company also provided me MSDS sheets in regards to my concern for battery grading. Is it possible that the manufacturers in china actually can get the cells and other battery materials at a much lower price? Also factering in that the labor cost in china is probably dirt-cheap as well, the actual cost to build a battery might be much lower than we think, especially for grade b batteries.
$200 for a lower end Grade A battery is possible. What I mean by that is Grade A cells from a lower tier manufacturer paired with a low end BMS and just the basics (no bluetooth, heating, networking, diagnostics, etc.). But then consider the costs of importing them with taxes, tariff fees, import duties, freight shipping, etc. And you have to buy them in bulk with a minimum order quantity. So you are looking at $400-450 a piece actual cost. To make any money re-selling them and make it worth your time you would be charging $600-650 minimum.
You might want to talk about BMS’s as well!
There are problems there too!
Yes, for sure!
Very helpful information.
Thanks! Glad you found it helpful. Thanks for watching.
It seems from the video that there is not much difference between Grade A and Grade B in the short term. How about in the long term - is the difference quite considerable? If the answer is anywhere between No and Yes, then this leads to consider grade B batteries that are priced fairly to their cost and to ask: are there any?
Please contact us if you would like to review our batts & cells, we have every cell certified with a manufacturer report and also show our cell acquisition process.
I got your email! Thanks for reaching out.
If the best way to spot a fake battery is by its price, then selling a grade "B" at the same price as grade "A" would make them tons of profit. As you pointed out, most people would never know until after the warranty period ends. And honestly, how many people request the paper work (which I'm sure can be faked as well). So just by price alone, you still would not know for sure the battery is legit. A sellers reputation would be your only guarantee. (Or as close to a guarantee as you can get.)
It's all too much for the average person to deal with and government doesn't really care. This is why the "Fake" industry is so rampant.
That is true, but consumers buying the top shelf batteries are doing so based on reputation, good customer service, and strong word of mouth. They aren't really willing to put in that much effort to build that up. Plus, it is a numbers game. I know from personal experience that the high dollar batteries only sell in low volumes to discerning buyers and those using them for absolutely critical loads. So they could sell dozens of batteries at extremely high profit, maybe hundreds of them once they get established, OR they could sell thousands of them as no names on Amazon for a more modest profit and little effort. They are going to choose the latter every time.
@@LDSreliance Well you have given out much information. Now it's up to the consumer to use it in their best interest. But I have to confess that I too have put price before quality. It all came down to what I was going to use the product for.
Great Video, thanks for showing us these facts.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the education on being ripped off. I don't feel bad for NOT BUYING any cheap lithium cell batteries.Just can not afford $900 - $1,000 batteries.
ruclips.net/video/PWivpI7TBkw/видео.html
@@JOHNDANIEL1 Thanks for that video wew, I will never touch a prebuilt battery pack hell no. Rather built it myself with cells and a good BMS.
My batteries from Ali Express were too good to be true and never even showed up, lost $2500. Tough lesson, did my homework and bought good batteries here in the USA and paid $7000 for the same amount!
I'm now running most of my house and the batteries are great!
I am sorry to hear that. I avoid buying from Alibaba and Aliexpress at all costs. Glad you are doing better now, though!
Yes, buyer beware there are many such shonky battery suppliers on Ali Express, and Ali dont seem to care & let it carry on even in the face of undeniable evidence. I was lucky and realised soon enough to be able to recoup my near losses through PayPal from one of these dodgy dealers who dont even send you a shitty cell.
Im sure u paid by C.C. Get your bank to reverse the transaction, Im sure u have proof.
@@13panda13
I tried, but visa has a policy that states you must put in the claim within 60 days of purchase.... The shipping was 90 days. So by the time I realized the batteries weren't coming it was too late :(
I agree with the analysis. I wonder how much prices have changes since the video was released?
For Grade A? About 20% since the video was uploaded.
For a guy that goes fishing 25 times a year, why wouldn’t I want to buy grade B cells at half the price? It will take me 20 years to have 500 cycles and 40 years to have 1000 cycles on grade B cells.
Absolutely you would. If you are shopping on lowest price you are guaranteed to get a Grade B battery. But keep in mind that there is also variance in quality of the BMS and internal construction of the battery, as well. So you could get a $300 Grade B battery that lasts you 16 months at your usage level or a $500 Grade B battery that lasts you 16 years at your usage.
Yes, this was very helpful.
Thanks for watching, Robert!
Good to know
there are some good off brands from china.. but your right many are no good gotta do your homework... I got some WEIZE 12V 100AH LiFePO4 for around 300 each and they work fine, time will tell of course but they are holding strong so far. like new after a few months of use.
I got a pair of Power Queen 100ah for a little over $200 ea. They work very well for me here in Jamaica, but time will tell how good they really are.
Have you taken a look at AOLithium Batteries yet and what do you think of them if you did? I watched several reviews/teardowns on them and they all performed better than rated and the reviewers were impressed with the build quality and components used like the BMS, sensors and heat sink were of high quality, the cells were laser welded together and the buss bars and other copper components were excellent.
Unfortunately, none of that matters for determining the quality of the cells. There are quite a few well-manufactured batteries out there that are made with Grade B cells. I even sell one line of them offered by MillerTech. The thing is that the companies need to be honest that that is what is in the batteries. Some are honest, most are not. A Grade B battery can still be excellent. But it will never last as long or perform as well as a Grade A battery. And I believe the consumer needs to know that to make their own choice.
@@LDSrelianceThanks for your feedback. They do advertise Grade A automotive cells and I have been keen to find poor reviews on the product like swelling or disfigured cell blocks but I can't really find anything significant to steer me away from them. On a Black Friday Sale I managed to buy two 12.8V 100amph batteries for $809 Canadian delivered to my door. They seem to have all the high end features like Bluetooth, low temp sensors, a great working app with lots of real time information but no heater for charging below the freezing mark but that works in my case because I can't fish at those temps anyways. Batteries are for my 24V trolling motor application.
Yeah, unfortunately they know they can say that without anyone catching them. It is almost impossible to prove they are are Grade B without tearing the battery apart (to where it cannot be repaired) and testing each cell with a battery of lengthy tests. Or finding evidence that they removed markings from the cell manufacturer indicating they are Grade B, which is required by law from the Chinese government.
You should watch this other video that I did that gives some more info:
ruclips.net/video/68h1yeXekqc/видео.html
And here is a company like yours that is claiming Grade A cells when the price tag proves they cannot be Grade A (like your company):
ruclips.net/video/GoHofLTOhVI/видео.html
Thanks for prociding the research and the information. Was actually looking for a 200ah battery but yeah, prices seem reasonable for my needs but looking at the reality of things, looks like they are out to dupe people. Thanks for that.
You are welcome. Do your homework and thoroughly check the backstory on companies and you will be fine!
@@LDSreliance Thank you and will do!
@LDSreliance What do you think about EG4 server batteries 24 volt?
EG4 is ok. Nothing bad. But they aren't top shelf Grade A cells, either.
For half the price? Sounds like a great deal. With the speed of battery tech, by the time these die I can get a great upgrade and still spend less money overall
I see that you also sell BLUETTI MillerTech EB200 2000W Portable Power Station. do you know if they use grade "A" cells in the Bluetti you are selling?
I can't say 100% for sure on that. The economic analysis on that is a little less clear since there are so many other components and parts involved there. As a percentage of the entire unit, the cells are a smaller percentage than on a deep cycle battery.
Yeah i have noticed this lately.
Unfortunately, not enough people are realizing it like you.
thanks. After alot of research, I think I'll just stick with lead acid batteries for fishing. I could spend $2,500 for lithium batteries for my 36v system, but what will the SOH of said batteries be in 5 years? Or just spend $300 for a marine deep cycle, and get 3 years out of them.
People act like these are forever batteries. Though not the same, my '12 Leaf has a 55% SOH. If the above would be the same, then I would have to have a second bank of batteries.
It gets crazy expensive fast.
If you are getting 3 years out of $300 marine batteries then by all means! That is a great deal. I talk to a lot of people that aren't getting that kind of longevity and are suffering from serious performance issues. A lot of boaters and fishermen, for example.
Thanks for this video. I was curious if this is also true for some of the lead acid batteries?
Not that I know of. Many of those are actually made in the USA and have a long reputation for decades. Like Duracell deep cycle lead acids are made by East Penn, which has been around for 60 years or more. Very well respected company with multiple manufacturing plants in the US and Canada.
Cool. Thanks for the reply. Like what you are doing!
@@noahriding5780 Appreciate the support!
Is there any advantage to having a bms that can balance the cells?
Yes, all lithium deep cycle batteries need a BMS. Or they need to be connected to a device that can do that function. Otherwise the battery pack won't perform well and may not last anywhere near as long.
Great video. But, now knowing the truth, I still think it's a great deal. If the majority of people which includes me, will never know any difference until after thousands of cycles, I feel like I'm getting my money's worth. So even though they lied, I'm paying less and in the end getting a bit less longevity or service life. It would be interesting but not very practical to do a long term study to calculate exactly what you pay for each watt hour or a period of several years. It should show that the price between a real grade A cell and its higher price, compared to a fake but cheaper grade A cell are going to be very close. Too close to worry about. I do thank you for confirming what a lot of us have suspected for a long time
Possibly. But since posting this video there has been new evidence and data that actually shows a 20% failure rate of Grade B batteries in the first year of use. Other data is showing that some Grade B batteries are not capable of outputting the current that they are rated for. So the situation has gotten worse since this was published.
@@LDSreliance 20% failure rate is not good, I still have a 5 year warranty. I'm hoping I'm in the 80% that won't need a warranty though.
I hope the company you bought from is still in business and willing to stand behind the warranty if you require it. Good luck!
Excellent video
Thanks! I appreciate that.
What do you think of Victron lithium batteries? Or battle born lithium batteries?
They are both quality batteries. Both of those companies have a well established reputation to uphold. So I think you are definitely safe using either brand.
Just purchased a battery for 118.00 dollars. Works fabulously and better than one I paid over 400.00 for. So if they're lying to me about it's grade which by the way is not stated on any battery that I've seen,so be it. If my cheap battery runs for 2 to 4 years I've more than gotten my value out of it. Times are changing and sometimes it's good.
Bookmark this post and come back to it in 2 years and tell us how it is doing.
Thanks
COOP
...
So what American companies would you recommend in your opinion. I need some deep cycles for my boat
Email me at ldsreliance@gmail.com
@@LDSreliance thanks for the info ! I too would appreciate any advice you might have on what companies I should purchase my 12 volt deep cycle from .
You explained the differing cost, but so what?? For certain applications it might be just fine. Say RVer wants to be off grid with solar, 5 years saving 50% of cost, compelling. House solar for 20 years, not so much. I cannot support mislabeled product, just drive home the why you should buy these or when is it ok? Go more into the risks of purchase. Think of this, sometimes you can find a $15 bottle of wine that is as good a a $50. That mindset might be occurring here. I bet the reviews are great on then because the users of yet to see the liabilities. Thanks for educating the the public and I hope this feedback helps.
I agree with that. There is nothing wrong with choosing to go the Grade B route if that meets your needs. But a consumer should know it is a Grade B product so they can make that call on their own. Most of these companies are promising 3,000-4,000+ cycles out of a Grade B battery, which will never happen. So an uninformed consumer may purchase a $400 battery vs a $800 one and think that is the last battery they will ever need for their camper van that they live in. Then 3 years later it is dead.
Very helpful, I'm in the pricing everything out stage
Glad it helped you. Good luck and let me know if you have any questions!
Can you by any chance recommend some manufacturers you are confident are soliciting high-quality batteries? I bet a *ton* of people in your audience would be grateful for that. I've been looking at Powerqueen and Jita 300AH models. They get great reviews, but there are no testimonials from long-term customers. I'd also be curious if you have any rebuttal to Rory Witham's comment a couple days back. His counterarguments seem very sound.
Rory isn't really arguing anything in particular. Seemed more of a philosophical pontification of different economic and political model than a real numbers analysis.
I can't recommend any brands other than the ones that I deal with every day: MillerTech and Jericho. I know for 100% surety those are both made with real Grade A cells. There are other brands that have a major reputation to uphold that I am confident are using Grade A cells. Those are the well known brands selling for $800-900 (not sale price but regular retail). Those are American companies that can be sued and have reputations to uphold. Not saying that can't mean they are totally honest but they have a lot to lose by shafting their customers. These no-name brands that pop up that no one has ever heard of and can't be contacted are the ones that you have to watch out for.
@@LDSreliance I really appreciate the prompt and comprehensive response. Thanks!
You are welcome. Good luck!
@@LDSreliance Do any of the two brands you sell make 6 volt AGM RV batteries?
No, sorry. They are only lithium batteries.
I hope my 1100 dollar Ampere Time 300ah battery is high quality. I spent the last of my savings on it and the main parts to begin building an off grid emergency power supply for hurricanes or if my family gets me kicked off disability. I live in a camper far from stores with no transportation and I`ll never beg anyone to help me again. Food prices are so high that to avoid over spending I have to carefully shop online. Stores are now out of the question and I have no way to get there in the future. The only thing the state is willing to do is maybe/maybe not provide nightmarish medical transportation. I`m trying my best to just survive and can barely take it anymore. I need to be writing a will so decent humans will get all my preps because my relatives will throw my stuff in a shed for awhile then after it has cobwebs on it they`ll carry it all to the landfill.
I think Ampere Time makes a quality battery but they do use Grade B cells. Please don't mistake Grade B cells as being poor quality. That isn't necessarily true. They just aren't perfectly matched to factory specs. But with a good quality BMS they can still last 1000+ cycles for you. So that should be a great start to your off grid journey!
@@LDSreliance I`ve been using it with a 20 amp plug-in charger and 2000w inverter for power outages and backup storage just in case I need power to save my freezer food if there`s no sun to power my two Bluett EB70s. I ran my window air conditioner for 5 hours with it one night but didn`t want to completely drain it and shut it off and used it with my microwave too to make instant coffee when a storm knocked out the power. I`m getting a battery meter and switches and two more panels to have 780 watts series/parallel setup for starters. Gonna increase that to 980 eventually.
Sounds like a great plan! Good luck!
i can live with grade B.
as i am living on ss and have little to NO extra money each month. and i have cut back on food even heat in the winter. ac in the summer. but that is grid power.
my old rv does have a number of old lead acid. but they are very heavy. i would like to go lighter weight.
right now there are deals going on. but no money to do it.
and at my age. i question if i would still be here in 10 - 15 years.
very eye opening
Yeah it is a rabbit hole, too. The deeper you go, the more indisputable evidence there is. I did several other videos since this one that you should check out if you are interested.
for a 1000+ cycles before I see any degradation on a Grade B cell I''ll go with the cheaper battery thx.
I have a 150Ah lipo4 from france sell by victron Blue power store .
Cost me 1000 euro .
Are 4 years old and still work fine.
That's why I bought from a reputable company like Battle Born. You do get what you paid for with such a company.
Agreed. I didn't buy Battleborn. I went kind of in the upper middle end. I bought two Renogy 170Ahr batteries and their charger, monitor and soon solar. So far I am very happy compare to my old lead acid batteries. The dirt cheap brands were tempting but you know the old saying!
Went with Ampere Time. Was a great mid to upper grade for me. Been using 3 300ah batteries in parallel for like 4 yrs now. Zero problems and use a Victron shunt for the low temp protection. If they fail ever, I can replace again and still come out cheaper than a single purchase of Battle Born.
@@leewarner9357 I can understand that I used Battle Born because of there Rep and used Victron Charge controller and there Battery monitor.
I found this very interesting article as my lithium 12v 100amp battery died or is dying as we speak,I'll be getting a Good A grade cell battery next time I'm looking now❤❤❤Filbz cheers olmate Ozy ozy ozy
Sorry to hear that! But I am glad this video can reach some folks like you that can make an informed decision next time.
are power queen grade B? or are they somewhere in-between a and b?
Never heard of them so I can't say for certain. Link?
Any expreince or opinions with chins or echo worthy lithuim batteries ??
Chins and Ampere Time are the same company and are 100% confirmed Grade B with terrible support. Eco Worthy is also a low cost manufacturer. I haven't evaluated their batteries but if they are in that $300-400 range then they are definitely Grade B.
@@LDSreliance thank you very much👍
Im seeing batteries with recycled cells, some even get re-packaged with new plastic covering.
Yep. I've even seen a battery sold to a consumer that had a concrete block inside taking up half the space where cells should be.
@@LDSreliance Those are usually display batteries for the shops but ive seen a few smash and grabs where ppl have stolen them and open em up when they dont work and find they are just a case of concrete. We did find floor tiles in lithium batteries though
The one I am referring to was someone who ordered a battery off Alibaba and cut open the case when they received it and found a small battery bank taking up half the case and half of a cinder block on the other side of the case.
@@LDSreliance Didn't u know? Thats what some Chinese manufactures would call solving a cost issue. Im not joking. A guy here distributed car battery jumper starters, and asked for cheaper costs. Next order he took, the battery size was changed to 1/2 the size with some bare lead added to even the weight loss... 😂
Yes i Noticed that most Chinese lifepo4 batteries drain faster than more expensive lifepo4 batteries.
I’ll keep my Chins “fake” batteries 12V 100AH that only cost $330, when I won’t notice it until after 1000’s of cycles. That will take me 10 year or more. The “name brand” batteries cost twice that. I would never get my money’s worth out of the “Grade A”
I hope you get lucky that way but for many consumers that isn't actually the case. Not only do they only last 1,000 or less cycles with a quality BMS (much less with a bad one), but under 1C or higher loads those cells will not perform well at all. Their voltage drops like a rock and the battery will last minutes as opposed to hours.
@@LDSreliance I have 4 of these CHINS batteries in series to make a 48V system. It runs my electric zero turn lawn mower. The typical current draw is 20-50amp….so I am well below the 1C current draw issue. I can also cut my lawn 4-5 times on a single charge, so 1000 cycles would last me 76 years. I think my lawn mower will fall apart before 76 years
There you go. That should be fine for your use case. But what about the guy that buys them for his RV because Will Prowse said they were good batteries and turns on his air conditioner? Oops.
I assume the cost of components can vary depending on quality but if you take 100% of the cell cost out of your analysis and leave the other costs you reference it still come up to a cost higher than battery prices I see on Amazon or eBay? What am I missing. Thanks
Yes, that is a big problem. I didn't mention it in the video because I only have anecdotal and circumstancial evidence but I am pretty sure these sellers are funneling their products through Taiwan or other countries to get around the high tariffs and fees that they would see coming from China. And these sellers may be willing to profit less than the $75 per unit that I put in my calculations. So maybe some of these companies are able to get by with about $275 in costs when you take out the cost of the cells.
So basically in order for them to make money, they are using extremely cheap cells and that should worry you.
@@LDSreliance I agree you can’t buy a battery for 150 dollars but your all in cost in you’re video was like 468 and adding marketing etc the cogs was over 600. My point is and correct me where I’m wrong is you can buy a battery in the 300 dollar range and all the additional costs you use to get to 600 should aslo be in the cheaper battery ie the only variable the cost of the a and B cells.
Yes, if they are playing by the same rules. But like I said, they may be willing to sell cheaper for less profit than other companies. For me, I am not willing to sell a battery and make $75 profit. But that is because I don't sell high volume. If I was selling 10,000 units then that would be a lot different.
I was also a bit generous on the components as I recently learned that these companies are using BMS's that don't even have cold charging protection because they don't have microcontrollers. So these BMS's are less than $10 component cost each and that is the most expensive component. So the $75 I allocated to an ABS plastic case, some wire, some connectors, some sensors (which won't exist on these after all), a BMS, some nickel tabs, etc. is probably overkill. Especially in volume, like I said, If they are making 10,000 of these at a time the costs go way down.
Then you throw in avoiding tariffs and using Amazon fulfillment so they don't even have to have a warehouse in the US or any customer support in the US....
Ture, some distributors they knew it, but they don't care, they just want to sell cheap stuff and make fast money, and in the end, they will blame the producer who has been long disappeared and who promised '10 years warranty'. Then these seller will create a new brand to cheat everybody again.
Yep. Rinse and repeat. It is a horrible system and I can't wait for it to end.
good to know
Wow, I'm sold on Grade B, seems fitting for me.
Yes, they are a legit option for a lot of use cases. I just wish companies would be honest about which were which.
I bet power tool makers like EGO, Dewalt etc are almost entirely based on grade B cells.
Correct. Which is why the cell manufacturers rate their Grade A cells at 4,000+ cycles @ 100% DoD (which would be one full charge and discharge cycle every day for 11 years) but the manufacturer only warranties the battery at about 3 years as an industry average (pro rated, no less).
Granted, contractors may discharge their batteries multiple times in a day but 3 years is still a joke.
Yep I was going to call them but you know these people going to clean your pocketbook. And if you do get panels they'll be cheap poorly installed garbage.