More Lithium Lies - Lithium Battery Companies are STILL Lying To You, Even When They Don't Need To
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- Опубликовано: 2 май 2022
- In this video, I again explore the depths of the marketing machine in the lithium battery industry. This is not a one company issue... there are bad claims and comparisons made by many companies. I attempt to help clear up some confusion by going point by point through a marketing graphic from an unnamed lithium battery company that compares their batteries to lead acid batteries. And, while I will probably never pay for another lead acid battery in my life, I have to defend the inaccuracies here that are made to make lead acid look even worse. Hopefully this helps some people look at all angles of the debate. #lithium #lithiumbattery #lithiumionbattery
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After switching to lithium on my solar system, I would never ever consider going back to lead. IDC what the specs are, lead is just plain weak compared to lithium.
I'm not going to argue with that. Just trying to keep these companies honest.
If you are saying FLA then yes, but AGM is a much better buy if you don’t need to deep discharge your batteries!
i had some problems with the round lifepo4 cells that have the power connections on each end. the negative side of the cell would come loose inside and when you shook the cell from side to side you could hear the inside going back and forth. i knew something was wrong with those cells when the voltage read went up to 8 volts. i'll never buy that kind of cell again , i'll only buy the cells that have both connections on the top.
@@dodgeguyz I started out with AGM 100 ah batteries. I was so disappointed with the voltage drop on even the smallest loads. Also because they could only be discharged 50% they had to be monitored constantly. With lithium I don't have to worry about what % they are. They are reliable and care free.
Led and lithium together is strong.
Video here in RUclips about it.
Together they are stronger and u get more out of it
My experience with batteries is in the golf cart industry,
One things I like about lithium is the weight savings ,
any wheeled vehicle performs better if it weighs less,
The other thing I like is the maintenance aspect,
Most people don’t properly maintain their LA batteries ,
They either overfill them with water which causes a corrosion nightmare or they don’t fill them at all,
Although I have to say Trojan batteries are quite resilient,
one time I had a customer call and complain that their cart would barely move, when I got there I found that their 8 year old Trojan batteries were completely dry, the customer stated that nobody ever told them they had to put water in the batteries, l filled them to the proper levels with distilled water and the batteries lasted another 3 years.
That would be a huge benefit and weird that it's not common place seeing the big hype on electric cars
That Says Alot.
I didn't maintain my LA batteries and they went dry. I'll never have LA batteries again.
The definition of marketing spin is an alternate reality or the art of confusion. What leaves me shaking my head is that it is taught at the University level and you can get a degree in it. You can become an academic truth stretcher. I worked for a branded food maker in their R&D department and they retailed in supermarkets. When we were developing a new product it was a constant battle to stop marketing trying to fudge the nutrition and ingredients panel and we would not always win. I hated making small-volume examples of our products in the Kitchen/Lab to send to them because I knew they were using them in the photo shoots for the advertising and packaging even though they were told not to. The product I made did not look like the mass-produced factory examples because that is impossible due to scaling issues in the mixing area. I also know that on a couple of occasions they had synthetic props made as they still did not like what the handmade products looked like. I was with them for 20 years; the worst marketing practices were in the last seven years or so. When you look at what is happening with the media and politics and many other facets of communication the truth is getting hidden, misrepresented, or even deleted far more frequently. I don't read advertising blurbs on anything as they are a waste of time.
That is a very interesting post, and the reason why I often head to the comments section *before* even watching the video. Fascinating
I used to share a house and a Dutch girl lived there. When she explained her science based job with a pet food manufacturer, she said "They would tell me what the marketing would say. My job was to find a way to make it seem true."
Well said. I completely agree that the lithium is a superior battery but it really does depend on the use case. My RV goes on battery power a few days at a time only a few times a year. For the cost of a lithium I got a couple of nice lead-acid batteries and a couple of solar panels. If I was full time and boondocking regularly then lithium wins, but not in my current situation.
Can lithium batteries be recycled like lead acid?
@@davidgardner1675 Absolutely.
Yes it greatly depends upon each persons case by case basis, and there are times when choosing a lead acid battery might be the smarter option. This is why it is important to give out more accurate info like this video does so that people are better informed and can choose more wisely what works for them.
I dont know much about RV usage but i know one once you several times discharge regular batteries or Gel like optima its become a pile of shit , you can't revive them anymore nor repair it. The warranty was 2 years i remember in the shop they told me it was discharged too many times- go away no warranty i bought a second optimum then again my van sucked the power while I was not using it and the sucker died for the second time. He is clearly wrong about discharging! It kills the battery instantly and any mechanic will tell you the same!
@@sekainiheiwa3650
You might be thinking of the traditional lead-acid battery, primarily used to deliver a quick burst of power for starting the engine. The continuous energy supply to keep the car moving, however, is actually facilitated by the alternator.
Deep cycle batteries, on the other hand, are specifically designed to handle deep discharge cycles. The video you're watching showcases flooded deep cycle batteries, which necessitate users to refill the electrolyte levels for maintenance. In contrast, sealed lead-acid batteries, also a type of deep cycle battery, require minimal upkeep and are spill-proof.
In terms of construction, deep cycle batteries boast thicker lead plates compared to their traditional counterparts. This design allows them to provide sustained electricity over longer periods, although they deliver less instantaneous power compared to traditional batteries.
Did the research 10 years ago and yes the lithium is better by a lot in every way for a price:) One thing that I don't like about lead acid is the blatant misleading AH rating. example, that Trojan 200ah batter will only give 200 amps at the 20 hour discharge rate, (so 10 amps an hour for 20 hours). You get far less than 200 amps at the 1 hour rate, (spec shows 100 amps capacity at 75 amp load). That 100ah lithium will give you about 100 amps for 1 hour at 100 amp load. That is a big deal when considering actual capacity at high discharge rate.
All battery chemistries have less amphour capacity at higher discharge rates than if discharged at say 1/10th C rate. Nothing is exact.
If you have to use batteries in an ongoing application, the cost of lead-acid batteries are actually higher, when you factor in the number of charge cycles before they wear out.
Lead-acid batteries deliver power much less efficiently. They begin delivering less and less power from their first usage, and their performance drops off dramatically in a short period of time.
Comparing Lead-acid to Lithium-Iron-Phospate batteries is a clear compromise in performance. And as stated, lead-acid batteries are actually more expensive in the long run.
Lead-acid batteries would only make sense to me in a backup power application where they see little to no actual usage.
@@jp040759 your statement is incorrect.
@@royhenley2396 48V Trojan system is $1546 when I googled. Some lithium 48v batteries were $1000!
I've lived off grid for about 20 years. When I first set out I studied all the then media for the best battery solution mostly based on lifetime and warranty. I chose, and not to point the finger at the culprit I'll call them, Brand T. That choice, which was one of the most expensive options at the time came back to haunt me. After just 3 years cells were shorting out and because they were 6 volt batteries, the whole battery was trashed. I asked for a replacement bank under warranty, which they did reluctantly. After three more years the same started to happen again, one by one cells would short out. When I asked for a replacement Brand T said no. I then studied more about the date codes on the batteries and they indicated a manufacturer date over 2 years prior to me receiving them. After much argument Brand T agreed to replace the bank a second time. Three more years pass and cells started shorting out. I was done with Brand T!
I decided to buy some 2V traction batteries of non descript name at half the price of Brand T. They are still working more than 10 years later!
The moral, buy batteries that have adequate space between the bottom of the electrodes and the bottom of the battery such that the inevitable build up of sludge doesn't short out the cell.
How do you determine the space between the bottom of electrodes and the bottom of the battery?
@@JohnH242 you ask the supplier.
In all these description manca la cosa piu importante. Anzi 2!
What model of T. was it?
Which DOD media?
T. makes dozens of types of batteries.
For example 3 years are perfectly in line with a second-tier Agm T. with an average DOD 50%. Perfectly.
If instead they were flooded traction, were the charge parameters respected? Especially the 100% constancy and the absorption time? Were they periodically equalized at high voltage as prescribed? Were they checked with the density meter to know if equalization or more absorption time was needed?
Subsequently You chose heavy traction tubular plate looks. These cells withstand high DODs like cheap lifepo4. they can last over 2000 cycles all at 80% DOD.
I do not think there are poor brands of these cells, as they are a niche market aimed exclusively at professionals.
While agm and monobloc gel and lifepo4 are aimed at hobbyists for the most part totally incapable, and there are many levels of quality .
You should tell people about brand T because they are ripping the public off with crap batteries.
@@olliemoose2020 Maybe he's full of crap, maybe he's lying?
Thank you! Common sense finally. We have deep cell lead batteries in our caravan (trailer) which trickle charge at around 14 volts. They’re heavy but reliable in all climates. Cope well with a quick, heavy drain say from a microwave. Charge back up relatively quickly via solar, Anderson plug while driving, or mains. In the back of my ute (truck) I have a battery box with a 100ah LiFePo deep cell battery charged by a 100watt solar panel on the canopy of the ute. Sometimes I’ll take the ute camping by myself, other times we take the van with all the mod-cons. Each set up does the job we ask of it. It’s not a competition. It’s getting the best workhorse for the job you have.
Wouldn't say it was reliable in all climbers because they can freeze in some harsh climates. A frozen battery isn't the definition of reliable. Might be the definition of fucked and dangerous and that's about it.
If lead acid were outdated as many yuoutubers want you to believe, would the battery behems continue to produce them? The millionaire companies to use them for industrial traction or telecommunications?
Lifepo4 are not superior at all...they are superior in many respects, but it always depends on the use. But only those who are really prepared in the battery technique understand this concept. Most users do not have the basis to understand the aspects and conditions where lead acid is superior. In addition, there are abyssal differences between the types of lead acid!
An OPZV traction or stationary tubular plate battery or a planté battery, last 5 or 10 times a monobloc AGM.
So saying lead acid doesn't mean anything. it's like saying lithium, there are many types of lithium with totally opposite characteristics.
For example, lifepo4 is good in cyclic duration, but it is one of the worst lithium as a start-up capacity or discharge current. there are types of lithium that discharge at 10C..tried with a lifepo4
How many know that nickel-iron batteries have a life extremely longer than lifepo4? But until the youtubers command it, people ignore it. No one studies science anymore .. now we listen to show charlatans, as scientific authors.
On the side by side comparison they are also unfair when comparing a 100 Ah lithium to a 200 Ah lead acid battery. That pushes the weight and cost of the lead acid up higher to start off with. Also a lithium battery benefits from not being deeply discharged and fully charged every cycle.
The cost over 10 years is incorrect as well. If you go with their original number of 50% dod, lead acid batteries can last 10 years and longer. My Trojan T105s are about 10 years old and still going strong in a solar power environment.
One more thing that limits Lithium batteries in RV and off grid solar use is the need for external control circuitry for lithium batteries. I am slowly replacing all my lead acid batteries with lithium. But the supporting electronics are way more expensive and complex than for lead acid batteries. But again, I am gentle cycling my batteries so my electronics are more complex in the first place.
And one more final point. For years I have slept peacefully with lead acid batteries in my RV or home. But with lithium there is always that fear of an explosion or fire. Just this morning I found a portable power bank overheating on charge and took it outside for safety.
Some very good points about lead acid batteries. Most decent lead acid batteries are just a fraction of the cost of lithium. I still have them in my RV after 5 years but I don't discharge them below 70% as the solar panels keeps them topped off. I will eventually change them to lithium next however as the costs are really coming down.
The weight difference though...
@@judgedredd8876 Since I wrote that reply 6 months ago I picked up two power queen 200 AH LifePO4 batteries at a deep discount of $550 each. I noticed the 100 AH dropped below $300 now too. The difference in weight was very noticeable. I expect these to last more than ten years as I don't let them fall below 70% to make them last longer. I guess time will tell.
@@philc.9280 best thing is to keep them at 70-80% ... never above 90 or below 10%.. for longer times... they should last the longest that way.. but using up a bit of power isnt bad also.. just dont keep them stored empty or at 100% full..
one seller i was dealing with increased his price for 18650 lifepo4 cells by over 400%.
@@paul.alarner6410 I was referring to the Power queen or Li Time 100 ah batteries that are hovering around $300 now. They used to be above 500.
I have 5 flooded lead acid batteries, of different ages and capacities all in parallel for the past four years, they all came from different cars they were all many years old when I connected them together, at first they would only get up to about 12.3 volts after a full charge, I then put a 3 amp power supply on them which I usually let it sit on overnight. I use them to power a 1000 watt stereo system, and usually use for hours at a time on the weekends. I then used a battery de- sulfator for 3 months and now they charge up and have a standing voltage of 12.7 after sitting for 24 hours, lead can last many years if you take care of them
which desulfator
If you compare DOLAR FOR DOLLAR, LEAD IS 2x - 3x BETTER
And when was the last time you found LITHIUM BATTERIES in a junk yard?
@@my_channel_44 pulsetech , I am a believer
@@fladave99 Depends on the junk yard.
Pulse Tech , $30 one left on there at least 3 weeks per battery
It would also be interesting to bring up the ability to charge in cold temperatures, and the ability to withstand long periods at 100% charge in 100+ f temps without damage/reduction of capacity.
A few newer lithium batteries have built-in heaters to solve the cold charging problem.
True. It’s the high temp and/or stored at 100% that I’m more concerned about. I kinda like leaving my camper plugged in and fully charged so it’s ready to go should I get the urge to spontaneously go for a trip, and it can hit 117 in the shade here. Lithium batteries wouldn’t want to be in a black box out on the A frame in the sun, for sure.
That said, for a boat where extreme temps usually aren’t an issue, or for a residence or full-time RV that will always have climate control (furnace or AC), lithium would be a no-brainer.
For an occasional use RV, though, either battery type is likely to degrade due to age before hitting max cycles, lead acid preference to be stored at 100% is an advantage, as is its cost, and temperature tolerance.
@@JeffinTD not to mention the cost of the equipment NEEDED TO PROPERLY CHARGE the lipo’s
@@yoyomawh4091 This is true. If I went lithium in my rig I could reprogram my solar controller, but I’d have to upgrade the 3 stage converter/charger in my panel. Some rigs now come with a power distribution panel charger that has a switch for lithium mode.
@@JeffinTD ………still no recycling that I know of
Thank you for the information, very interesting. There's always pros and cons either way. What it really gets down to, is how much money do you have to spend
budget is certainly a big consideration. It is only one aspect though. If you want to evaluate budget over time (useable capacity, price per year, replacement interval etc.) then money may not be any more important than the other aspects and in some scenarios, price per year may be far less for lithium than for SLA. It definitely is for me. Its not all about the benjamins...
I put 2 180 DC lead acid batteries in my hunting cabin and they are still running good after 8 years. I don't ever draw more than 75% and only periodic discharge use during the year. So depending on your situation Lead Acid isn't a bad choice. I plan on changing them out after 10 years just to be safe, maybe see if I can use them in a secondary capacity. With regular checkup on water level they do pretty darn good!
Nothing wrong with that at all. If maintained properly and you choose a quality model, they can last a long time and do really well.
Does the cabin get really cold ie below freezing?
LA are ok if charged..
Lithium not so sure?
It does get below zero during the winter, the LA's are fully charged during those times. 7000 feet elevation as well :)
@@mySeaPrince_ buy the version with the heater plates on between the cells if you are in freezing temperatures. LiPo4 will suffer damage trying to charge a frozen battery.
So glad I read this comment 8 years and still going
Good comparison.
Using lithium now and very happy with performance but I do agree, honesty and integrity are important in helping consumers choose the right product.
Using lithium was our choice mainly for the maintainance free advantage along with no offgassing effects and lack of corrosion in our Salt air environment.
Thanks for watching, Jeff!
Ive been off grind for 2 years with agm's. I would love some lithium but my agm is doing a great job. My friends agm has passed 15 years so im going to hold on to them until 10 more years or so then we might have cheeper and better batts
Great plan! The prices will surely continue to come down.
same using agm's while working on the road. using 100w solar & DC2DC charger. A single lithium battery would have cost the same as my whole setup. I have 200ah and its doing just fine for rv/van scenario
I like lithium batteries to run things on my boat and emergency inverters in my home (you didn't mention that charging and discharging lead batteries indoors can be problematic with their creation of Hydrogen gas), but you make valid points about the exaggerations in the advertising. When dealing with certain LA batteries in certain applications, the lithium ads may be closer to the truth, but your argument is valid under the conditions that you laid out, which is totally fair, since the pro lithium ads chose to be so general with their claims.
More info is always better. That's why people view these videos, or at least it should be why, IMHO. Stay safe.
I often wonder if my golf cart with lead acid batteries in my attached garages are leading to my health problems, too.
A friend of mine in the battery business once said “There are lies, damn lies, and battery salesmen”. i’ve been using vmaxtanks lead acid deep cycle batteries in a solar back up system. One of my banks is 12 years old and still going strong. When it fails I’ll probably go to lithium due to weight, but if weight is not a concern, lead acid is still a pretty good deal.
Amen, brother!
NIckel Iron is still king of off grid power for homes. They are not advertised because they last too long.
@@chippyjohn1
i was under the impression that they are still pretty much on par with lead acid batteries but at a higher cost and higher maintaines interval, along with the electrolyte being expensive to replace after the 7ish years
@@rookm13 Nickel Iron batteries are less efficient, meaning they require more energy to charge and also self discharge more, but they last essentially forever. The electrolyte is alkaline which does not cause corrosion, and is very cheap to replace. They require more frequent filling of pure water but the electrolyte only needs replacing every decade. The electrolyte is also very cheap. Lead acid batteries slowly corrode. It is the nickel in the batteries that makes them expensive and the fact that you only buy them once. Lead acid batteries can last 20 years quite easily if they are used within reason, but most people do not.
@@chippyjohn1i have nicd and lead. I will never get this lithium shit. But a have my ob charger. 😊
My main reason is the weight and size as I take the batteries in a pack on my back. The energy density is much better. As far as the 50% depth of discharge for lead acid, as you stated, it generally reduces the life of the battery.
So much not to like about lead acid is the off gassing. I've had lead acid and sla swell, where the lithium iron hasn't for me.
Great video. If only companies spent a lot less money on marketing, but spent that money on actual, relative marketing.
I agree!
ThNk you! I despise being steered with subtle, and not so subtle, lies.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
It seems that most commenters are using lead acid for power backup. In terms of weight or even volume it is not nearly as critical when the application is non-mobile. In the non-mobile application, the strategy would be an incredibly oversized bank of batteries be it lithium or lead acid. If the capacity is multiple times larger than the momentary need the power in and out can be better managed when the battery is greatly oversized. Thus, sparing the potential degradation that would occur on any battery bank and extending the time (range, number of hours) it could run your home or facility. The ability to absorb alternative energy in real time can be managed better by size as opposed to performance. Even though you have limited charging speed it is just a matter of creating a bank large enough to absorb high current.
No mater what the efficiency ( how much you get back from what you put in charging will make lithium better for all but the car starting cold exposed normally charged by the motor type applications.
Any controlled temp application where return efficiency is important is a no brainer for lithium.
Good points made. Especially since I want to choose my system components individually, I really need to learn the important differences of what's available.
Interstate 105ah 6v batteries at Costco run around $100 (they were ~80 when I purchased 4 of them 6 years ago). We do a lot of dry camping and they are still running strong. We can go 4 days before they drop below 12v and need to be recharged. When they do need to be replaced we will probably get the LiFePo4. The trailer has an isolate switch and even 5% discharge seems high - they don't loose 30% charge over the winter.
Nice. I love the point by point comparison. In my view lithium is the better better battery, but there is no need to mislead.
Couldn't have said it better.
I run three combine harvester batteries with a solar panel that gives 8 amps when sunny they power a 3000wat inverter modified sine wave it runs a 1200 wat microwave for 40 min boils 6 kettles of water it keeps the caravan battery charged up to, in the morning the batteries still have 85% this is over 3 years now, paid £475 for the three batteries in total rated at 200 amps each , very pleased with this set up, the only bug I have is I wished the inverter was a pure sine wave type, as you said it’s what you need the task to be for the batteries lithium ones would have been far to costly, and easy to run off with if stolen it would take a grizzly bear to hump them combine batteries off lol 👍
The ideal for lead acid is keeping them between 75% and 95% charge. The ideal for Lithium is 30% to 80%.
My 2 volt lead acid batteries are 25 years old and still work fine
Excellent information on the two. I wouldn't mine Lithium, but there are a few reasons why I won't get them; for now! 1) cost, 2) Ah capacity. Lithium would be excellent, but until they can be at least 375Ah plus cost close to leads. Today if you look at the weight of the " B-B Game changer, " the weight is over 80lbs+, and that's at 270Ah you need another 100Ah at 31lbs+; so, 111lbs X 4 = 444 lbs total, then add the room for 4 270Ah + 4 more 100Ah batteries is a factor, for sure. Let us say four 375Ah Flooded from East Penn/ Deka at 125lbs each x 4 = 500lbs. So at that kind of weight, it doesn't really matter, at 60 lbs. Then the room/ area to hold them, I bet I can put East Penn flooded in the space of 3 feet x 2 feet at about $1400.00. The cost for the Lithium of somewhat the same Ah would be about $14,000.00 upfront. That's a chunk of change. If you don't mind, the monthly maintenance on flooded. It seems to be a win for most people. For small systems, lithiums are perfect. If you have the money, it's a win. In short, I am for either one, depending on your needs.
You don't state what voltage your battery bank is. By the amp/hrs and weight you stated, I am going to assume that your system is likely 375 amp/hr at 24v. So, for an example, you could buy two EG4 100amp/hr 24v batteries for $1500 each, giving you 400amp/hrs at 24 volts at a cost of $3000 and both batteries would have a combined weight of under 200lbs. So I don't understand where you are getting your figures from. Your quote of $14,000 could buy a whopping 1,800 amp/hrs worth of the EG4 server rack batteries, so I must be missing something,. because the numbers are way off.
Also, is your system is a 12v system, you could buy an EG4 12v 400 amp/hr server rack battery for $1500, that ways about 90lbs. Both technologies are great and have their purpose, and advantages for various needs and applications, but one must be careful with numbers when making comparisons.
@@johndiezel5781 🤔 your numbers are a little off? On the *two* 24V EG4 100Ah adding up to 400Ah? ..... Regardless... Please explain to me why I would want a 24v system instead of a 12V? I'm a noob here
I like the comparison points except for the depth of discharge. While the lead acid battery can discharge 100%, I know some of my boat electronics (and appliances) will not function on less than 11.5v so for my comparison I would measure the capacity to have a cut-off point at 11.5v. The lithium now has a much clearer advantage and this shifts the overall comparison (at least for real-world uses) in favor of LiFePO4. It also affects cost per year and power cycle expectations. I think the lithium advantage is more clear.
Yes, there are pros and cons for sure. I was not attempting to do a comparison video. But if you were comparing the two then voltage as the batteries discharge could be a problem. Either way, in fact. I have had more than one person tell me they choose lead acid precisely because of what you described because they can set a cutoff point precisely where they want it because of the fairly linear voltage drop of lead acid. Lithium holds voltage until the end and then drops off like a rock. So if you need to set a precise voltage point for 20% SoC... good luck.
@@LDSreliance Setting a precise cutoff point would be good for a strictly managed setup but why? Are there some devices that do not respond well to constant voltage over a longer period? Im just curious as to why it may be more desirable to have a voltage cutoff point that is presumably far earlier for one battery technology than the other?
Thank you for being what seems to be one of few who don’t push that ‘only can discharge to 50 percent’ group. I’ve worked in the UPS power protection industry and we discharge to 10.8v always and have been for over 30 years (SLA batteries) because that’s what the battery manufacturer specs specify
You are welcome. If you look at the DoD vs. Cycle Life graphs for most quality lead acid batteries, there isn't any obvious reason to stop discharging at 50%. You can see that in the Trojan graph in the video that it is fairly linear. I could see if there was some steep drop off after 50% but there isn't. This is just one of those "rules of thumb" that won't die that isn't really founded in reality.
A UPS isn't cycled deeply so often.
@@my_channel_44 a ups is rarely used. And if so it's even rarer to go for a long period of time.
Please tell us the how long an UPS installation keeps their AGM batteries before mandatory replacement.
For insurance purposes it's 3 years afaik.
An unrelated question for you JoAnn, this week gone I had to purchase several UPS units for Lab equipment and was amazed at how few of the units on the market have pure sine wave output. Given that they are a devise designed and supplied to "allow a safe and orderly shut down of a computer and associated equipment in the event of a power supply problem". My understanding was that a computer should only ever be run on pure sine wave. Should the UPS power protection industry be regulated.
I use SOK Lithium batteries and live in the Caribbean. The batteries are 12.8v *100ah at a base cost of around US$570, about 57% of the cost of the brand you used in this review. Many popular/good brands of LiFeP04 are sold well under US$500 online.
Battery weight is a very important factor that impacts the final price as the cost of moving freight particularly in times of rising fuel cost simply cannot be ignored.
I have used so called deep cycle lead/acid batteries before from another brand and they failed miserably when deep discharged. After almost three years I have not had this with my LiFePo4 batteries.
I think this review could be very misleading to persons who truly want to make an informed decision.
From the comments I see people didn't really get the point of this video. The point is, as far as I see, that you should not use the comparison table of a company selling Lithium batteries to find out which chemistry is better for your application and if it worth the money - because they tend to tweak it to sell their own battery whatever the truth is.
Also, I don't think it makes sense to compare two batteries. One should compare the total system cost and behavior of a specific application with the two kinds of batteries and then decide.
And all the superior qualities come with "just higher upfront cost" but exactly that puts it out of reach for a lot of applications for which you just don't spend that kind of money.
For the price comparison: yes you can get lots of LiPo under 500, but then you will also not compare it to a Trojan but pick one from the middle range. Price diff will be similar.
In these comments there are a bunch of cases where people went Lithium and were happy. There are also a lot of cases where people use Lead-acid for a fraction of the cost and it works out for them. One can't just say "which one is better" in general.
@Nathan Smith obviously you are also not a champion in getting the point
@Nathan Smith I sincerely have no idea what you are speaking about as I shared my experience having used both Lead/Acid and LiFeP04. Different chemistries have different applications and would depend on user needs/preference. Neither ought to be dismissed as irrelevant. For storage of solar systems lead/acid is hardly an option I can advise in this day and age.
@Nathan Smithnot sure if you read correctly I mentioned liFePo4 twice in my contribution but I do hope I am clear. That said, you are fully entitled to your opinion.
I ran 12 Rolls 450AH LEAD ACID batteries on my solar system off grid for just under 19 years. I took great care of spending 2-3 hours 2-3 times a year maintaining them. I just replaced them with the Rolls 430AH Maint free version. So if you take care of lead acid batteries you can getmany more years than you mention. Lithium while maybe better, still costs 2.5 times as much as lead acid and I seriously doubt they will last 2.5 times as long.
Time will tell. Thanks for sharing your experiences. The comments on this video are interesting. People take their own experiences and create absolutes out of them (not saying you are). If someone had a bad experience with lead acid and had to replace them in 2 years then they suck and lithium is always better. If someone had a great experience with their lithium batteries then clearly they are superior. It seems like this is a zero sum game that people want to play but that isn't the case. It is much more nuanced than that. Lead acid and lithium can both be good in various ways and various scenarios. I'm not sure why very few people can understand that.
For me I find lithium is not worth it for a number of reason. Mainly because I camp mostly in the off season when the temps are low around here. Yes lithium have a BMS to prevent operation when temps are outside of the safe range BUT this still does not stop the fact that in extreme cold they will not work (not able to charge so no power to draw from). My AGM will still work. Lower capacity and with other issues BUT in 18 years of temps as low as -50c my AGM's have worked for what I needed them for. I keep my AGM's installed 12 months of the year in all temps with no issues.
The other point I always laugh at is people that promote the weight difference. YES lithium are lighter BUT in a home (why do you care about what they weigh) or in a 40' class A (that weighs as much as a house) the weight is not a factor. Even in my Ford Transit the weight savings are there (200lbs as I run dual batteries) but I carry so much other stuff that it is a VERY small percentage of the overall weight. PLUS in the winter I carry extra weight for traction anyhow. Maybe I should tell my passengers that they need to diet before getting in or only let skinny people ride with me.
I see so many vans and buses that promote lithium (mostly as they are sponsored) then do their build with 1/2 or 3/4" plywood, ceramic tiles, marble counters - this all adds more weight then you saved with the lighter batteries.
If I lived someplace else I probably would go with Lithium but not here and now!
I still like AGM because the voltage curve lets me set up low-voltage cut-off devices for downstream appliances based on particular voltage reflecting DOD (remaining capacity). I can't do that simply and cheaply with lithium because the voltage curve with respect to capacity is largely flat, except a the extreme ends, say within 5% of fully charged and fully discharged. With lead-acid I can pick voltage points to suit the priority of loads to cut off. I like that for some installations.
There's no doubt LiFePO4 is great technology, and it does comes with an up front cost premium, but depending on the installation and the scenario for use, it may well prove more costs effective compared to AGM or other lead acid batteries over the long term.
It really comes down to having accurate specifications and prices, accurate design criteria for intended use, and the correct methodology for the individual doing those calculations to work out what's best (initial price, ongoing costs, weight, lifespan, redundancy, maintenance, etc) for the end user and their budget. It begins with having the right information to start with, and if companies keep putting out information like you've shown, it's no wonder people get themselves in a tangle, or at least form an opinion that's not based much in reality, but based on marketing spin.
I always look forward to your videos. Cheers, from Australia.
That is an interesting point on the AGM's. That definitely does come in handy in that use case. There are still more uses cases like this where lead acid can be better that people don't like to admit.
Thanks for the support, Michael!
Agreed. I just bought new AGMs. perfect.
It's weird finding people who choose 'easy to read capacity based on voltage' over a 'voltage stability for safe, consistent, and overall better performance'. Everyone in the solar and battery community that I've talked to and seen in forums always chose a 30 $ or even a 100$ battery meter over a heavy voltage sagging, which in the end can't be relied on to read the capacity.
@@TheSiprianus Hahaha...when you say it like that, it just sounds silly ;-) No, I'm not choosing 'easy to read capacity based on voltage' over a 'voltage stability for safe, consistent, and overall better performance' for clients with respect to battery chemistry choice.
Rather, if the battery criteria for a client ends ups being a lead-acid of some variety, the lead acid 'voltage vs capacity' curve has a characteristic that can be used to switch load thresholds on and off relatively easily. Or put another way, it's something that's there and can be used, if people want to, and if appropriate.
LiFePO4 will show only about 0.2-0.3V range over 70-80% of capacity range, and while that's a good thing overall, it's way too tight for most devices using voltage thresholds to switch loads on or off. AGM will show about 1.2-1.4V for the same 70-80%, so that's quite generous.
Yes, high current draw will create a voltage drop giving a false reading of the true state of battery capacity at that particular moment when using 'voltage vs capacity' curve thresholds. I don't use if for this. Most low-voltage cut-off devices have a bit of hysteresis built into them, helping alleviate that a little, but it's not a perfect solution.
I'm really using these low-voltage cut-off devices to safeguard batteries from over discharge, not to determine how much capacity is left, but that is the de-facto relationship of this method. A cheap battery meter will not automatically disconnect non-critical loads that can be shed when needed, and battery meters that have this feature are not cheap (Victron BMV-712 for instance AUD350.00 versus Kemo Battery Guard AUD45.00).
Many budget battery meters (watt-hour or power meters) will display capacity in Ah or Wh as charging and discharging occur, providing a real-time indication of capacity remaining, but few cheap ones have any ability to disconnect loads at at particular Ah or Wh threshold. If you know of an inexpensive unit that does this, I'd be interested. Some of these meters will have low- and high-voltage cut out, high current cut out, over temperature cut out, but no user configuration cut out for power used to a particular power level.
A typical AGM installation for vehicle/camper might be a low-voltage disconnect with alarm for the system, set to 11.6-11.8V. All loads go through this device. Non-critical loads go through another low-voltage disconnect set for 12.2-12.3V and will reconnect around 13.0V. This effectively means they will not come back on again unless the batteries are being charged. I set the thresholds using a bench power supply to get them to where I'd like. During commission of the system a watt-hour meter used (unless there's one in the system already) to determine approximately what capacity is used at those thresholds, and make any adjustments if necessary (which is a tomorrow job, since I have to recharge the battery again overnight).
Cheers, from Oz.
Well, most "conventional" car makers are designing/making EVs. Thus, they know just about all they need to know about Lithium batteries. One would think they would switch over the lithium just for the weight savings; yet in reality the EV makers still use a lead-acid battery for "household" tasks.
Tesla makes their own 12V battery LFE starting battery. The other manufactures don't care about weight or longevity yet. A lead acid battery only last about two years in an EV as it gets many more cycles per year than a starting battery in an ICE vehicle. So it produces a service event for stealerships to keep people coming back for a repair every two years. After going through 3 lead acid batteries in my EV in six years, I put a LFE starting battery in my Merc B class EV and it is working much better. No more trips to the dealer with bad starting battery errors on the dashboard.
What's a "household" task?
@@randybobandy9828 -- Sorry. It's stuff to keep the car ready to go. For example, it powers the receiver that listens for the radio signal to unlock the door. It powers the light that comes on when you open the door. It's a variant of a large power plant whose generator isn't running. Such a plant will be pulling power off the grid to keep it ready to start the generator again. In this context it's a "term of art."
I was just saying the same thing to my wife the other day. They are lying to everyone about lead acid batterys I'd much rather have the heavyweight leadacid anyday good video my man 👍
Biggest issues with AGMs on solar systems is the fact that they follow the peukert’s law and that they take forever to float charge. They need at least 40 hours of float charging, which doesn’t work well with earth’s 24-hour day. On the contrary, lithium don’t care what the discharge rate is, plus they can easily cope charging to 100% in a few hours.
I can confirm. Those Trojan batteries are fantastic. I had a pair in my RV for over 15 years before having to replace them.
Oh yes, used the Trojan batteries in industrial sissors lifts, great life. Other lead acid with antimony also had extreem durability. Tried cheap imported lead acid batteries, very poor service life, avoid......
my choice was automatic for me. My restrictive income can only afford AGM lead acid. The 12V 100 AH just under 200.00 a lithium of the same size close to 400.00. If lithium ever comes close to the same price point as the AGM I'll hop right on it. I enjoyed your video and found it quite informative. Thanks.
I paid $349. each for 4 -105ah batteries. Then I paid $330 each for 4 - 105ah batteries. The last set of 4 were $313. each. Now they're back up to $379-$429 which is ridiculous after consistently dropping. I was hoping to buy 4 more when they dipped below $300. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen
@@fauxque5057 inflation happened
@@randybobandy9828 Bidone Batschit Crazy Happened...
@Happy Dayz biden dementia happened
This is like comparing a screwdriver to a voltmeter they have different functions think of lead acid as a heavy powerful weight lifter with no stamina and a long recovery time and Lipo4 as a lightweight long distance runner with quick recovery.
There is a review of both on our channel used with trolling motor, induction cook top and cargo conversion trailer if you are interested
My daughter bought a new camper that came with two Interstate lead acid batteries. She forgot to turn turn off the battery disconnect while the camper sat in her driveway for a week unplugged. Even though nothing was left on in the camper the parasitic draw drew both batteries down to dead. One battery recovered but is now weaker. The other would no longer hold a charge. I explained to her that lead acid batteries need to be maintained and that drawing them down below 50% charge level is bad for them. I firmly believe that, and my many years of experience with lead acid batteries in my campers has taught me to never let them get below 50% charge. In my new camper I went with a 100amp hour Lifepo4 battery. Love it. Lightweight and less worry about killing my battery.
Allowing a LA battery to remain discharged for a week is the most damaging action.
In LA operations manuals they specify the state of charge level which must be maintained for battery storage. A trickle charger is the trick so keep your occasional usage batteries healthy.
Consider this... if you run a good starter battery fully down, then jump it and carry on, I think you'll have trouble measuring much effect on battery condition.
Also some of the cheap batteries dealers put in might only be rated around 67 amp hours.
Love this. I was really swinging to the lithium but I decided to purchase 4 150ah agm sun batteries @120lb weight made in Germany £900 got discount and so far they have definitely been good batteries Very early days But they say they should last 10 years + if they do ile be happy
I’d be interested in hearing how often these batteries go exothermic (burning at 3262F), like drone, phone, e-bike, and Tesla batteries so often do.
They don't. These batteries don't use Cobalt for their construction, which is the part that makes them dangerous. LiFePO4 - Lithium Iron Phosphate. The downside is that they have less capacity at the same volume and have a lower current delivery capability.
Thank you for this! Unless and until the costs come way down in Lithiums I will stick with lead acid/AGM.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
Great info here! Our neighbor recently switched to a bank of lithium house batteries for their toy hauler fifth wheel. Installation was typical. A few roof solar panels to charge while boondocking. Running lights water pump etc., etc. One day while dry camping the batteries exploded, catching the camper on fire and burning it to the ground. All family members escaped during the initial blast with only minor injuries. The take-away here: Lithiums pose a huge risk for catastrophic destruction. Lead acid AGM batteries, not so much.
I won't give the name of the lithiums, but the manufacturer includes the words "battle and born" in the name.
your supposed to have a charge regulator, that takes care of over charging & the rate of charge. you didnt mention any details of instalation,or electrical fittings,fuses. if it was fused, it wouldnt explode..eh.. did they get a payout, . cars,planes,pose a huge risk, but you drive & fly.. its allways human error. not the gun..
@@harrywalker5836 The toy hauler fifth wheel was purchased brand new from a mega So. Cal. RV "super store". The owner took the unit back the selling dealer to have the solar panels/charger/inverter/monitor/batteries etc. professionally installed by the dealer techs. Every thing is under warranty and litigation is currently ongoing. As far as I know, all equip. was high end "Victron" components (no expense spared).
Harry, the battery management system in the batteries is supposed to protect from those, too. Redundant protection is certainly a good idea but something like this should never happen if the BMS does its job.
@@LDSreliance if there out of balance, ect, all contributes, shouldnt have more than 4 together. the bms doesnt know what the other bat is doing. regardless, find the fault & dont do it again.. lithium is finiki. acid dont care.. fuses are cheap.
@@seymourscagnetti1413 how old was the tech 16.. obviously didnt tighten a bolt or wired wrong.bat blew from short or over charged. or wires cooked, wrong gauge. i dont know, im just a pleb. hope they get there truck back, with extra. for grief,losses.. not good when your house burns down, .basically..
The recharge time on a lithium is literally 1/4 the time of the l and acid. Also, capacity drops off radically on a lead acid battery as it discharges. In 30 degree weather it's only about 1/3 the capacity of lithium. Lead acid batteries fail on every comparison. The cost over time for a lithium battery is dramatically less than l and acid also. This is also besides the weight and size.
I agree with everything you said except the "fail on every comparison" part. Lithium is superior in most ways but not all.
Lithium is actually only really dramatically less expensive than LFA IF you keep the lithium batteries for as long as the life span predicts
@@LDSreliance Nope, sorry. Lithium *IS* better than lead in every single way. Don't confuse prevalence with performance. Lead acid was king for so long because power companies and petroleum companies both benefited greatly from the lack of advances in battery technology.
@@awo1fman every which way?????clearly not cheaper. Particularly if you want a similar peak amp setup..winches? starter motor? How much does a lithium with 100AH, 500A peak current cost with a 10 year warranty.
Lithium does not charge by some cheap device. You need something that can produce 25-50 amps to get those numbers. Using the proper wire sizes. That is an extra cost to get that benefit.. So don't say something without first including Context...
And there in lays the rub.. To charge Lithium fast. You need to invest more money into the system. And no car alternator is going to give you that for free. As most car alternator are rated at 2500 RPM for there output rating.. Add in the fuel cost to do that if you so chose... Solar is an added cost. So this shit gets expensive....
I don't use any lead-acid batteries (well, other than in my cars), but if you are strictly off-grid, and PV is so inexpensive relatively speaking, that doing a proper setup with a significant oversized PV array so that you can top charge your battery at the efficient slower charge rates for lead-acid every day, there is still a strong case for it. Also, if you just want a system for backup power on an occasional basis but otherwise float the battery, there's not really a reason to spend more for lithium unless you need the weight/size reduction.
I personally use lithium batteries because I make minimal setups where batteries end up spending long times at a partial state of charge with opportunistic charging in between use.
I'currently using lead acid batteries because they are very safe. I once had one overheat to boiling point because of an internal short and it still did not catch fire. I just replaced the battery and the unit is still in use. SLA batteries I trust to be in an UPS when I go on vacation. Lithium-Ion not so much.
Hey Jason, love the vid. Question: Based on the graph of percentage of charge as compared to expected lifespan in cycles, is there an optimal state of charge to recharge?
Depends on your preference. The battery will last longer as far as cycles, but you get a proportionally less amount of power each cycle. So it balances out. The total energy stored and discharged would be pretty close to equal whether you discharged it to 0% every day for x years or 50% for y years. However, over a longer lifetime there is a slightly increased chance that the BMS or other part of the battery would fail before the cells do and the cells are the ones that are rated for cycle life, not the entire package.
Thank you for confronting the big lithium misrepresentation strategy! I used both types in different applications and see value in both!
I'm surprised you didn't mention the lfp cycles
They often rate the battery at a cool temp and a low draw 0.2c to get the cycle life.
However the real world cold, will lower the capacity. And high current will lower the cycles.
Some of them have 1500cycles listed.
Misconfiguration of battery system can also cause them to fault, lfp more so that LA.
Just saying.
True. That is the topic for another video. Some of these companies play some serious games with their crazy claims of cycle life. And the general public believes it. Frustrates me quite a bit... one because it is just dishonest and two because MillerTech rates theirs the right/honest way and they look inferior in comparison.
@@LDSreliance yeah that's the problem when your honest. Over the years liars are embellishers, then they are marketers.
China has a brag and sell way or doing things, a mere possibility. And in the further reaches of...
For example my mppt I built would be 15kw
Because ohm's law says so.
150v X 104 amps. But it's not as it's 1500w because that's how Mosfets work.
But it's not a lie per-say.
There are definitely shades of grey. I don't think that all marketing is a lie. But it is a lie when a company is smart enough to know that what they are spouting is heavily tilted in their favor and that they believe that their audience are ignorant and will believe everything at face value. If they are providing information knowing that it will paint their product in a very favorable light because people don't know the rest of the story...
In addition to the other issues mentioned, LiFePO4 also needs a more complicated BMS with a lot of SMD electronic components, good luck with complex electronics lasting 15-20 years to achieve that 5000 cycle life. If the BMS failed you likely ruin some of the cells in the battery and those lithium 100AH batteries are crazy pricey. I like AGM or deep cycle golf cart wet lead acid that have a core recycling program if you need a new one and all much cheaper replacements if something goes wrong.
@@practicalguy973 BMS tend to break at the MOSFET, they're on or off when they break and it can cause some or no damage.
But you can swap out cells, and 100ah is going to cost around £80-100 each.
It's if they are welded together it becomes an issue.
The benefit of lfp is that there is no voltage sag like lead under load, so you're working at more of a constant which helps all round rather than having a massive current variant.
Serviceable LA can last, but it's down to the plates, and in are cheap out, material saving world, LA can be less likely to last. But that is the same for most things.
Four sets of lead acid is the same price as a single lfp setup cost wise. And if you get the same cycles, then the draw back is sag.
But LFP cycles are to 80% capacity.
So you get 80ah from 100ah.
Lead of serviceable, with still retain the same power capacity.
I've not seen a fully serviceable LA since the 1980's though.
Clear case, screwed on top, lift out plates.
I remember taking out plates using a iron to take them apart to clean them, pop them back in re solder them, distilled water in and put on charge. Wait for the bubbles.
Renewed battery.
I think maybe H&S put a end to these??
Very interesting. Sounds like Brand X might be Battle Born. For me , I can't justify $1000 for a 100Ah battery when I can buy 4 LiFe batteries with similar specs for the same amount. They might not last as long, but they're easy to replace.You are correct when you stated that there isn't any reason to embellish or mislead if you have a quality product.
I can neither confirm nor deny. And I can't fault anyone for buying a cheap Grade B battery. For most applications and financial scenarios they are great. But where I have a problem is manufacturers not telling you what you are buying OR outright deceiving people into thinking they are Grade A when they are not.
Excellent video and channel. I just checked your playlists and I'll be busy for awhile!!
Thanks
Awesome! Welcome aboard!
The fastest discharge on a lithium battery for me has been the goal zero. I would never buy this one again.
Really? That is supposed to be a premium brand. They certainly charge a pretty penny.
Mines lasted a year
I've had 3 of their led lamps fail at around 1-2 years, the newer ones did not last 18 months, same fault in all & its the control circuit turning the light on continuously even when the switch is in the Off position - the battery is fine. Their attitude also stinks & is the opposite of 'green' - if its out of warranty toss the old lamp & buy a new one for $$$, no repair parts.
"Green" is just a selling point because it is a popular, hot button issue. Many of those Goal Zeros, Jackery's, and Bluettis have NMC or Lion battery packs that are only rated for 500 cycles. So after a short period of time you have a very expensive paperweight that is highly toxic to the environment and required an enormous amount of energy and pollution to produce in the first place.
Now, don't get me wrong, I love me some portable power stations. But lets not pretend that they are green.
@@LDSreliance
The Jackery‘s and goal zeros are the worst for cycling, not to mention the heavy weight of the goal zero.
The newer Bluetti’s have longer cycles. I believe in 2 to 3000 range.
I would also say from a UK perspective, I've found lithium batteries for motorcycles less reliable, but more expensive.
I had an AGM battery on my motorcycle for 11 years until it finally gave up, I replaced it with a lithium battery a decent quality one, cost as much as the AGM battery did at the time, it lasted just under 4 years, replaced it with another lithium half the price thinking lithium batteries had fallen, it lasted just over 1 year and was a terrible battery.
I have decided to go back to an AGM battery even though it's now more expensive than a lithium, clearly there is a reason they are a bit more expensive, they seem to perform much better for longer.
You are correct and learned the hard way. Lithium batteries were never meant to be used in gas engines where cold cranking amps are required. Even in a sporting boat one uses a AMG style (or standard lead acid) to turn over the motor and perhaps a lithium battery to operate a electric trolling motor. Of course charging systems should be adequately addressed in mixed cell application.
@@williamparker8318 Yes I did, and over all the lithium batteries pretty much have cost me almost double that of a single AGM battery would have cost and to top it off I still gotta buy a new battery which will mean after going lithium over all ended up costing me almost double on the lithium plus what I should have bought in the first place so almost 3 times the price of one battery in total.
For that money I could have got the top of the range AGM battery for that bike which would have only been just under double that of the original battery.
Well you live and learn right.
When I got the first lithium battery everyone was raving about them, and it seemed to work until it just gave up just like that, done.
your not supposed to use lith or agm, as start batts.. have you looked in to capacitors, as a start batt..6 will give 13/14v. cheap,light.
@@harrywalker5836 No, but I will just go back to the original battery, 11 years was a good life span for a battery on a motorcycle.
Which is what I should have done in the first place, but you live and learn right.
I believe the original battery was an AGM battery, normal batteries would probably not do so well.
Capacitors just run down way too fast, but who knows in time they may replace batteries altogether, I know some people are working on that.
@@flitsies caps are a good start batt. they charge instant. a guy left his caped car at an airport for 2 wks. started right up. watch some vids. . yes, a batt is more reliable. i have 6 caps, waiting to test them in my truck. some guys use a small lith batt as back up charge. i can fit them anywhere, which means i have 2 spaces for agm,s. old batts were good, i had one for 6 yrs,over.. flattened it 5 times. yrs later, i bought a century batt. lasted exactly the warrenty period, took it back, i said what now,,he said,,see you in 12 months..never bought another.. quality these days is a pigment of your imagination.. just had a light globe blow,,just before sunset,,just when shops shut.. go figure..
Have to agree. There is really no need to exaggerate. On the whole, in most applications, mainly portable power systems, Lithium wins every time. Yes, good quality lead acid batteries are still good batteries, my liveaboard boat came with them (AGM), but their intrinsic performance qualities left much to be desired.(Most aggravating was voltage drop)
After switching to Prismatic LifePo batteries life has been much more pleasant. Granted my perfectly adequate charging system for LA batteries is now woefully underpowered and slow, but it does keep up. The extra expense up front has been well worth it, in my humble opinion.
The maintenance thing is true. I hardly ever even look at the new batteries. I monitor individual cell and overall pack voltages and use a SOC monitor to track general health.
All my 12 volt stuff love the higher voltage levels, especially high draw items (think refrigeration and cooking) and the additional useable capacity makes extended periods of none charging days much less stressful. (I use solar charging, mostly, backed up by suitcase gas generator).
I could go on and on addressing each category of comparison, but I think you get the point. Never going back to lead acid.
Lithium battery exaggeration goes hand in hand with EV range exaggeration, which ultimately comes back to the lies told by the lithium battery manufacturers. I have yet to see a lithium battery lives up to the promises they make.
By your own numbers you're not going to get 5 years at 100% depth of discharge out of the Trojan, closer to 2 and it's not going to be covered under warranty. So their 10 year pricing estimate is pretty close, you can replace it 5x at 100% DoD or 3x at 80% DoD or 2x at 50% DoD. Any way you slice it the 10 year cost of lead acid for a given usable Wh capacity is going to be significantly higher than your chart shows.
What about battery performance in cold temps? The lithium battery in my motorcycle is useless in the low 30s unless I put a heater on it all night.
And how many lead acid batteries have caught fire due to a malfunctioning internal protection circuit?
lithium has to be kept warm for charging from what I understand. Some BMS and charging systems take temperature into account and limit charging significantly if its cold.
You could get the deep cycle batteries instead of the AGM for depending on the you can get from 106 to 122 amp hour battery for from $80-122 each last month we replaced our battery pack with 5-122 amp hour batters that’s 610 amp hours for $540.00 at Walmart they said that these are the most popular batteries that people around here are using for there solar. AGM are half of the power as these and there are still people trying to use 6 volt golf cart batterers at $600 for 100 amp hour and you need 2 just to get 12 volts you have to special order them because the manufacturers have been trying to stop making them since the 1970’s but the smart people won’t stop trying to use them. I wanted to get some of the nickel iron batteries after I found out about them when you recharge them the plates regenerate them selves after about 3 times they are better than they were originally. The company’s in China quit making them around 10 or 15 years ago when they started pushing lithium batteries. Tesla used them in his original electric cars back in 1900 J Leno has one in his collection it has the original batteries they are over 100 years old and still work they don’t use acid they use lye and water if they get to bad you just take them shake them around to stir everything up dump the water out refill it with new electrolytes and put them back on charge at high current for a few hours and they’re good as new a friend of mine has a few hundred of these for his battery bank his are the old railroad batteries used to run the railroads signals the new ones have a site glass so you can see the water level the old ones didn’t they just had a big tank of the electrolyte with a hose they would stick the hose in each cell of the batteries push the button and it would fill till the the liquid got to the vent hole and stop I tried to get him some more of the electrolyte they told me to just get some lye and mix my own. I tried to get the materials to make my own batteries because my friend wouldn’t part with any of his but it turns out that you can’t put it here you have to order it from China they will build it there and send it to you but they don’t want to build you batteries that won’t ware out you can either get lead acid or one of the lithium types around 15 years ago they were having a big push in third world countries using nickel iron batteries and solar panels they put a stop to that
This is one sentence. Not even a period on the end.
Just to bring up the forgotten battery the Nickel Iron battery I am using batteries that were over 60 years old when I got them I have been using them 22 years. In A stationary battery pack for solar weight is not a consideration, although they are lighter than lead batteries of equal capacity, they need no special charger can be charged much faster than lithium or lead and can be discharged to 0 with no harm to the battery. these batteries where made till the early 60's when Exide bought the company changed the way they where made and then closed the plant claiming the they where no longer viable for a storage battery. these were used in railroad signals, diesel electric submarines, backup for power plants, and early electric cars, Edison built his in 1912.
Awesome
I am doing some experiments with the liquid metal batteries, like the Ambri company chemistries. I have read a few of the papers from the engineers from MIT. The tricky bits are keeping the contents liquid.
Totally agree with this analysis. The very best bargain in lead acid batteries is the largest size deep cycle battery from Walmart, only about $100. Has over 800 CCA and large reserve capacity, great where there is no AC available.
Ah NO, not even close. Golf carts and RVs need a deep cycling battery not a car/truck starting battery. CCA mean ZIP for this purpose; 800 CCA would be great for starting up your diesel truck. Totally different animal.
@@Roarmeister2 exactly that Walmart battery is a dual purpose battery, calling it a deep cycle battery is stretching the truth.
The lithium battery may be assembled in the United States but all the parts (the cells, the BMS, and probably the plastic box) are all coming from China. Saying that they are manufactured in the US is disingenuous at best.
Just installed lithium 48v batteries in my cart. Really debated between the lithium boxes. Im blown away with the difference i feel.
Good to hear! They are awesome batteries, for sure.
Best comparison I've seen. Was thinking about upgrading to lithium, but won't now and save money. Thank you
Go Lithium. Weight is indeed a factor and the price of Lithium is coming down every day. Lead Acid CANNOT be safely discharged to 0% that is nonsense. Anything less that 25% on a regular basis and they wont last 2-3 years and you WONT get warranty because when they test it they can tell its been ' ABUSED ' and not used within the suggested parameters.
Dont be fooled by THIS video either !!!
There, some lines are missing ...
From an instantaneous point of vue, if you're looking for comfort in the use and that you're wishing you can afford it ...
Go for lithium !
Some folks move backwards the mystical the radium ...
From local to global ...
Lead is quite more mature as a raw material ...
Which means the line the difference in between costs n values is not drawn yet for lithium but already is for lead ...
Thanks for pushing up on the debate what ... is !
Dare, care, ride safe, clean, have fun ...
From France with .
Excellent work. What technology (if any) can best withstand the cold of winter. I don't have solar and have utility power but still keep a 12V lead acid for power failures and the 12 volt accessories like the frig and furnace.
Lithium will still work in cold temperatures, you just can't charge it below freezing. So if you kept a lithium battery reasonably charged (they only self discharge 3-5% per month unless they have bad electronics) then you would be fine for a one day or less power outage. Neither chemistry (lead or lithium) would likely be able to charge in a power outage anyway unless you have solar panels. But if it is below freezing outside it is the winter and solar panels won't be doing much good at that time of year anyway.
The caveats with LA are it must be charged as soon as it's discharge cycle has finished due to sulfation, it must have a topping off charge which runs into hours, it must receive a minimum bulk charge current when deeply discharged and requires a float charge when fully charged.
These are great get-out clauses for warranty. Only really UPS installation companies and car's can properly fullfil these criteria. For solar off grid systems, lithium is a huge advantage. I spent years fretting and maintaining my LA off grid system, I switched to lithium and my worries have, er, changed somewhat lol. I no longer worry about soc or dod. I now worry about BMS failure and possible fire..... But I do love my lithium ion batteries. Well worth the expenditure.
Lithium has two advantages. Weight.. Can be mounted inside the vehicle...
One draw back of Lithium.. If it catches fire. Just move away. It's burning your RV to the ground. As not even fire fighters will try and put it out...They just watch it burn...
One of the big problems with the lead acid battery is if it is discharged for a certain period of time it will degrade the battery so it is a problem with the solar if it cannot get a charge due to bad weather..
Lithium batteries are great if you can afford them and while they do have a cold charging limitations I see that as a minimal issue. The biggest problem I have is lithium that do not have an accessible bms or the ability to run closed loop. I wouldn't run them on a home power system going forward, maybe on single battery devices around the property, but that would be the extent
You can always DIY a LiFePO4 pack and have full access to the BMS and everything else. I power my off-grid home with a 28kWh bank, which I will double in size this year for a cost of $4500.
Interesting and helpful. Thanks you!
You are welcome. Thanks!
I’d also be interested in hearing if any “solid-state” LI batteries exist which don’t charge at a glacial rate...
loved this video I'm still glad I brought 6 AGM batteries for my solar system I feel lithium is still too expensive as the 6 block AGMs only cost me £1400 and are 150ah each If I'd brought 6 lithium that would of been closer to £3000 for what I needed
Thanks for sharing! Good luck with your system.
There are at least two very different Li battery chemistries: Li-ion, or NMC, and LiFePO4, or LFP. The former has a shorter cycle life than LFP, so I'm assuming your chart is using stats for LFP. Even then it depends upon how the battery is packaged (compression, for one thing with LFP).
One of the markets you cite DOES cycle their batteries every day, or even multiple times a day (e.g., golf carts, perhaps not 100% on every cycle). There are other applications, like industrial forklifts and trucks, that likely do as well.
There are safety implications. The NMC Li chemistry uses an electrolyte that combusts when exposed to air, while the LFP does not. Lead acid gives off combustible hydrogen gas during charging, unless it's a sealed cell design. But since there's no claim on the marketing chart, I guess that falls into the other considerations list.
This is why I use an auxiliary system electronics like lights/low powered fans/small tv ran on lead acid and use lithium for larger energy needs.
just can not beat a agm for reliability.
1) seen to many ev burning up.
2) every wire, crimp, solder join is a failure point. bms has what 30 or 40 failure points.
3) heat or cold agm works in all conditions.
4) driving on windy days weight keeps you on the road.
What I didn't know before buying a lithium battery, is cold weather factor. As I understand it and have read numerous places, agm batteries handle colder weather better. This is a pretty big factor in what I buy.
While I agree lithium tends to have more cycles, but in all honesty, where I live (Missouri) it can get pretty cold and have some pretty harsh winter days. Being that I leave my batteries in my van and it being pretty cold in winter, in my case I would fair better with a agm battery as apposed to lithium because of this factor. Now, if I lived say in Arizona or California or maybe Florida, lithium would be the better choice, but I don't so agm is the better buy in my case, considering I don't have heat when at work like say an RV would to keep the batteries warmer.
Honestly there are some things that are relative, because it depends on multiple things you have to factor in when buying a battery, just like when buying panels, it really depends on how you use it, what is hooked up, the place you live, hour much sunlight will you get, etc.....
Lithium also does not like hot days. Or cold days.
Anyone know what happened to the aluminum ion batteries that were supposed to take over? Charging faster, staying cooler. Developed by an Australian co. I think
MORNING, I RIDE E BIKES YOUR VIDEO GAVE ME MORE UNDERSTANDING OF CHARGED AND DISCHARGE TIMES OF LITHIUM BATTERIES, HOW MANY TIMES YOU CAN CHARGE THEM, THANKS
Glad I could help! Thanks for watching.
Not sure the internal battery management system is a plus for Brand X. It's there because it's needed to prevent the thing from catching fire.
Great information! Thanks! Awesome unbiased comparison!
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
2x 100amph power queen minis $640 canadian under 40 lb .. lead 132lb . minis 6x 19.8 lb huge win under 120 lb.
We have a small travel trailer that we use a few times a year and only go out 3 or 4 times for a few days (3-5). I have in the past used Trojan T105 set up for the trailer and honestly the last set lasted us over 6 years (approximate cost o the T105 is about $400 for the Pair). Our trailer converter/inverter/charger does not support Lithium so I'd have to change that out a a very expensive cost. We just use the standard T105 (2_ to get 12 volts. Our charger does keep the batteries up as we keep the TT plugged in at home in an RV garage. So, I'm staying with that... but my need is to have a battery 12v that I just place under the table and run a small Beltek 350 watt inverter on to power our TV and media player as well as for our phone charger. I measured the draw of our TV (120vac) and the media player on AC and it is drawing 55 watts steady while watching the TV... This is the times we can not run our generator ... but during the day, we run the generator to charge up the batteries for a few hours. I used a 12v interstate - Costco Marine/RV battery for years and it worked well... .now it's time to change and watching the fight from wet cell standard rv batteries to AGM to Lithium is so confusing .... I don't use huge draws, I'm not running a microwave or coffee maker just a simple 27" TV with a small media player to watch videos at night for 3 - 5 hours... Is there any reason to go AGM (other than the spill factor) and I still can't see using a lithium that is 3 -4 x or more expensive and buying a charger.... I am sure there are a lot of folks like us, only using the TT a few times a year and even fewer times without a hook up....In that case .... What would you suggest?
You could go AGM if you have the space and weight or just get a smaller, Grade B lithium battery that is high quality. Here is an example that I sell but there are others:
store.ldsreliance.com/products/sprintr-50ah-12v-12-8v-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-battery-1250sp
A charger will run you under $50:
store.ldsreliance.com/products/5a-millertech-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-charger
So for $350 or less you could have a battery that will outlast your trailer. Or you could get an AGM from Trojan or similar and pay about half that and get 6 years out of it. There are pros and cons of each.
Hi, I've just purchased a 12v trolling for my small boat. Next decision is 100ah battery choice, what do you suggest please out of leisure lead acid, agm, marine deep cycle or LiFePO4? So confusing. LiFePO4 are much more expensive I know but is it worth it for range on the water in boat?
Mark, shoot me an email at ldsreliance@gmail.com.
You can get an Enjoybot 12v 100ah battery for around $250. That's cheaper than Trojan batteries.
Appreciating what your saying here, you leave out a big elements on 'like for like' comparisons - like charge efficiency. LA looses as much as 1/4 at higher rates (ie discharging it overnight), lithium virtually nothing. that means the trojan here is more like a 150ah battery at high rates, not 200.
Some other important bits on warranty too:
- they have a max DOD stipulation of 50% - so there's no warranty at all in your 100% DOD comparison here. Also 'justifies' the 50% capacity use in the original comparison
- They have a 'delivery' clause (ie only has to deliver 50% of its rated capacity to not be defective (unclear if this compounds with above)
- They have a temperature clause of 50% warranty reduction for every 10C above 27C... pretty drastically low... ive seen lithium ones that only start limiting above 60C.
- the warranty is also pro-rated (though this is common on lithium too) so by year 4 your down to 20% max return on warranty, vs 60% for lithium (all else being equal)
IE, your kind of replacing a apples to oranges comparison, with a oranges to apples comparison. I'm all for 'clearing the deck' on marketing BS... just make sure you dont swing it the other way either mate :D
But the video wasn't mean to be a like for like comparison. It is a deconstruction of a company's dishonest marketing message.
And you are correct on the Trojan warranty. I did not see that in the fine print of the warranty language before I produced the video. But that doesn't change the fact that they are grossly misrepresenting the 10 year costs in their marketing info. If you had to replace the Trojan every 2 years (750 cycles @ 100% DoD) then you would still be at $1250 at normal market prices or ~$2100 with the prices at the time of the video since that model was no longer being made and the prices were skyrocketing of the remaining supply. Still a far cry from $3600 however you slice it.
That was helpful Im building a system for my 35’ sailboat and it has an electric drive already installed but I want to install a solar system that I can run an inverter off of to charge the drive batteries as well as the house electric needs, nav, microwave, lights ect.
Sounds like a great project! Good luck and let me know if you have any questions I can help with.
@@LDSreliance will do! Thank you!
My old 2008 Mercedes (made in late-2007): we just replaced the original lead acid battery earlier this year. Almost 15 year life span. And it's been left outside in the cold Canadian climate the entire time. YMMV.
the one in my car is an optima from 2004 still kickin!
I am a small solar experimenter. I get used sealed 7.2ah lead/acid from UPSs abt. 2-3 yrs old. They work fine for me in my two small systems running mostly lights and charging small stuff. One battery bank is charged by an MPPT controller and the other by a PWM controller. Both fully charge each battery bank by early afternoon each day (unless its rainy or overcast)
I will soon buy a small Lithium battery and either run a third system or just replace one bank with the single Lithium battery.
Greetings from Jamaica where its summer all year round.
if i am thinking correctly isnt the amp hour should be the same to do the comparison? that means you would need 2 of the brand x to the one trojan which doubles the cost of brand x in the comparison. please correct me if i am wrong
It should be but the comparison is very complicated.
That marketing is misleading at the least and an out and out lie pile couldn’t be any more true if it came from the burning bush. Your video shines this out and is of one example of the sorts of untruths which make up the ads we see and read daily. Will it end? Doubt it. But kudos to you for showing these deceptive practices for what they are, flat out lies!
Points are solid. The voltage drop comparison you did not get into is critical to protecting the equipment being served. I don’t want a 12V refrigerator trying to start at 7 volts.
True but the point of the video was to debunk the marketing graphic, not to make an exhaustive comparison of lithium vs lead acid. I've done that in other videos.
I just bought 6 12volt 200 amp hour lead acid batteries. It cost me 2100.00 delivered. My system is 24 volt so I will have 600 amp hours of electricity at 24 volts. The manufacturer recommends only discharging them 50 percent but i have plenty of capacity for that not to be a problem.
If I had bought lithium batteries it would have cost me 2 to 3 times that amount to get the same capacity and with battery technology getting better all the time who knows what will be available in 8 years when my lead acid batteries need to be replaced. I was happy to only spend 2100 and wait and see.
I can't argue with you there. Good luck with your system!
I agree,it is a piss off when comps lie
Hello...you seem to know your stuff with batteries... i have a question i need an answer to asap because i cant buy before finding this out....can i easily switch battery chemistries from sla to li-ion for an e scooter by simply matching the voltage and Ah? say 60v20ah? i realize the charger needs to be changed...but as far as motor and motor controller? Also i tried getting info from Emmo ebikes for my gifted 6-8 yr old escooter....they say it came with a 72v20ah sel bank...but my charger says 60v20ah and i count 5x12v batteries. BUT...i notice an empty slot space under the seat where the battery bank ends....so could have someone just dropped it down to 60v from 72v to save the cost of 1 battery? to me that doesnt make any sense but some people have tight budgets or just do things like that!! thank you sooo very much for your help !!! i have subscribed to your channel for helping me with my dilemma! thanks for the great battery info!!!
Yes, you can change chemistries for the scooter. The scooter motor won't care what kind of battery is attached to it. The only difference it will see is a slightly higher operating voltage from the Lithium battery than the lead acid battery.
Yes, it is possible that someone was too cheap to replace that battery. They may have discovered that, of the 6 batteries, one of them stopped working and accepting a charge. This would cause the entire scooter to stop working because the batteries are in series. By removing that one battery from the series, they could get the scooter moving again, albeit at a reduced voltage and thus less power. Like you said, people can be cheapskates.
But that also may not be the case. The scooter may have come with two different configurations. If you can get access to the scooter motor it might have a label on it that gives some more information about the motor and what voltage(s) are appropriate for that motor. That might solve the mystery.
I have two AGM SIGA Phaeton 12 V; 260 Ah in a 24V-System. The come with a ten year warranty. Got them For 7 years now. They are weighing over 70 kg each. Not a single issue so far. And I am using a high frequenzy device to avoid crystallization in the batteries. I can highly recommend them. But nowadays I would buy Li-Batteries at the same price range. Back in the days, Li-Batteries were way much expensive.
An excellent video. The only thing I would point out though, at the 7:00 mark, the fact that lead acid batteries do not NEED any electronics is clearly an advantage in favor of lead acid. Electronics in general are failure prone, and you cannot have an electronics failure if you do not have any electronics. The dependence on electronics for the safe and reliable operation of lithium batteries is the only thing I do not like about them. I REALLY wish they could work simply and reliably WITHOUT electronics of any kind, besides perhaps an energy monitor to keep track of state of charge. If it weren't for the weight difference, I would definitely be putting together a lead acid battery for my bus conversion. And I still just might! The bus can certainly carry the extra weight...
That is a good point. Which is head scratching why this company listed it as an advantage.
good work! Lithium is clearly almost always a superior battery. But it may not be a superior battery for the money or it may dissuade someone from using lead acid all together when clearly they still have a place in the market.
Agreed. Thanks for watching!
i bought 2x wet rolls batteries. 235ah. and only require maybe 65ah of said battery, like the trojans, they have a cycle life of over 1200 when you never discharge past 50%, and couldn't for the life of me afford lithium. even got a little heating pad to keep them warm during the cold trips, but that being said, the freezer works less, requires less power, i've never seen the batteries drain past 12.1 overnight even using a heating pad, charge phone, make ice etc.
The problem is, I need someone to declare a winner. I have a history in the solar business 40+ years ago and in the cellular cell-site and switching office business 35+ years ago and I was an expert at one time on lead acid battery backup but I have no history with Lithium. So I went to the battery seller to see his videos and didn't get a real comparison of value, etc., but, instead, really just got a fact check on the sales brochure. It was interesting but I'm still looking for a more usable comparison designed to help me choose batteries for a limited-whole-house backup - power for reefers, medical equipment, and technology equipment.
You won't find one. All you will find is opinions. There are too many variables and too much of "value" is tied into consumer preferences. Some might find value in a 20 year investment with high upfront cost but a strong 10% return on investment, similar to the stock market. Others may find value in lower up front investment, less "fuss" (like rewiring a boat or RV), and less risk. But if you are strictly speaking of value in terms of dollars and cents, it remains to be seen how long these lithium batteries will really hold up. Grade A cells are rated for 3,000+ cycles, but will the BMS last that long? Will the internal wiring and connections last that long? There isn't a single lithium battery company that has been in business for more than 12-13 years, that I am aware of, so it isn't possible to know for sure. MTBF ratings and lab testing can only take us so far.
All I can do is help to fact check the marketers and leave it up to you to decide. If you are looking for someone to tell you how you spend your money, there are plenty of other RUclipsrs for that.