I have been off grid for 3 years now. With only 6kw solar and 25kw battery. But it seems to run a 1200 sqft home just fine. But I did build to the house myself and designed it to be energy efficient. The cloths dryer,stove and on demand water heater use propane. The first year will suck. Basically because you will be constantly checking everything before you learn to trust your system. But in these 3 years. Everyone I know has spent at a minimum 24 hours without power. And the only time mine is out is when I turn it off to make an upgrade. I love being off grid but once you take control of your energy needs. You will see the energy grid as a marvel of engineering and appreciate how little people actually have to pay for power.
Once you learn how to live off grid ie do laundry during peak sun and don’t leave lights on and such you can live on a relatively smaller system than when you started out.
So is there a conversion rate of how much kw of battery needed per 100 sq ft of home ? And can it be done without lithium batteries? I still don't like the fire risk of lithium still, and Lead acid seem pretty good still. thanks.
@@noahriding5780There is no fire risk with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. The ones that catch fire are LCO or another sub chemistry of Lithium Ion. Almost all deep cycle lithium batteries built for RV's, golf carts, bass boats, and solar are LFP so they are safe. Stay as far away from rules of thumb as you can get. They are so vague and general that they are not accurate for anyone's case and can get you in big trouble on a large investment like that.
@@noahriding5780 not really per 100 square feet but rather average out your electric bill. I wouldn’t fear the new LiPo batteries, the newer batteries are really safe especially compared to the older chemistries and the BMS’s have truly gotten smart. I use the signature solar 48v batteries along with their inverters and the newer ones have really good monitoring systems for hot and cold. When it comes to how many it depends on how many days of backup you would like to have. Average your daily KWh usage for summer and winter and multiply by the number of days backup you feel safe with and add 20%. The 20% is so you never drain your batteries to 0. This is how I figured my battery needs and I’m sure others do it differently, the system I have today is my second large off grid system and the cost of it compared to my first along with the ease of installation was night and day.
I live remote rural off grid here down under, 24V with four 140amp batteries, lighting is LED strip lighting , fridge freezer ect is soft start with inbuilt inverters, I stay away from high draw things that need to be plugged in via the inverter. I run a 4 bedroom house sheds and a workshop , the workshop if I am running high draw tools necessitates running my backup generator at times, though not often. Works for off grid but running a suburban house with flick the switch appliances and AMP hungry appliances requires a much larger and more complex hence more expensive system. Its about knowing your power usage keeping on top of your system , I sometimes watch these videos, this being one of the best I have seen of late and wonder about the efficiency, practicality and usage of roof top solar in the cities. In the cities the mind set is flick the switch, leave everything on standby and people wonder about the amount of electricity they are used to using and the shear wastage a suburban house produces. All my lighting is LED and I also have the house wired for 240V from the inverter, works for us. New sub here, had a thought I added add a small wind turbine as it acts like a battery trickle charger overnight and keep your batteries topped up it extends their life by years. Good luck with your off grid its more than worth it and the added bonus is you escape the cities, many more people are doing it as there are so many more jobs now where you can work from home. Its put the real estate prices in country towns and off grid locations through the roof here in Australia, glad I got in ten years ago.
Haha. Just trying to give some people a dose of reality. I hope it helps you do things the right way from the beginning, regardless of what you choose. It can be done but it takes knowledge and no guessing.
I had an electrician seperate my power boxes in my garage, I now have 2 power panels, 1 is the 220volt system and 110 in the other. I can constantly cover the 110 with my system.
Move. One for one “Net Metering” does exist. Grid tied systems have the electrical system as its battery. Over generate when it’s sunny, draw down your credited surplus when it is less so. Consumers need a lobby, because net metering is good for everyone in a relative way.
At least right now solar panel prices are super low. Buy while it's low, who knows how long these prices will be sticking around. I just bought three brand new bifacial Talesun 400w panels for $450
Wow! That is pretty good. Yes, the panels are getting cheaper. But the net metering deals and some of the other stuff is getting worse. Some utilities charge a fee per month just to take your power of as much as $25 per month. You would need to generate 416.67 kWh per month just to pay off the monthly fee with the example scenario in the video, let alone start to generate any offset of your usage!
I don't understand why off grid stuff is so expensive in the USA, in South Africa I just bought 20 x 550W panels for 1771 Rand each, which is ~93.21 USD a panel. I have seen multiple videos on youtube, and for an installed system you seem to be paying double or triple what we pay.
yeah US seems to have crazy prices with Solar. Maybe its the subsidies or trade war but 100 a panel and 150-200 per kwh of battery can be found by shopping around in europe.
We have a 16kw ground mounted grid tied system and live in the Hudson Valley. New York has net metering meaning kwh for kwh. In essence the grid is our kwh bank account. In the Spring, Summer, and early Fall we are making deposits to the kwh account. In Winter and at night we are wwithdrawing from the account. The net result for the year is we use about 200 khw more than the total solar production resulting in a savings of about $4500 plus.
For now. But you pay a CBC charge ($0.33-1.33 per kW of your array per month so $5.28-$21.28 per month or $63.36-$255.36 per year) for the privilege and it is going to get worse soon. They are pushing the VDER plan hard and will follow the rest of the country rapidly. The PSC chose to avoid a black eye like California has with their Net Metering 3.0 debacle by allowing the utilities to ease customers into the VDER. But it will be required within a few years. And then you will receive 1/3 of retail rates or less per kWh just like the rest of the country. Enjoy it while it lasts.
@@LDSreliance All I need is three more years! California grandfathered in those who already had solar before the law went into effect. So they still have net metering and I suspect NY will do the same.
Maybe. Time will tell. But NEM 2.0, which is the one they are grandfathering in California, was not 1:1 net metering. It had time of use rates, high interconnection fees, other mandatory fees, and they did not pay the same rate for cogenerated power as they charged you for their power.
@@LDSreliance Under NEM 2.0, net metering policies have a one-to-one offset, meaning the price of a kWh supplied to the grid is equal to the price of pulling a kWh off the grid. NEM 3.0 will change this price ratio. Under NEM 2.0 customers can elect a rate schedule as long as it was time-of-use (TOU). NEM 3.0 will require customers to be on one specific TOU schedule that is determined by their energy provider, making NEM 3.0 more restrictive and limiting to customer choice.
That may be what California said but it isn't accurate. The NEM 2.0 credit rate was locked in at 7.6 cents per kWh. But your actual retail rate you purchase the power was all over the map, but minimum rate regardless of TOU was 14 cents per kWh. It was sold as 1:1 but it was anything but. They did all kinds of creative math and shell games to hide the fact but it was well documented from consumers and solar sites alike that it was not really 1:1.
I have a 6kw solar system in Pakistan.Basically i am able to run almost everything from 9am till 5pm ( 600 units/kwh per month ) and charge my lifepo4 battery ( 5kw ) which further extends my usage uptill midnight ( only basic load , fridge , led bulbs etc. ). Microwave is something which needs to taken under consideration since it has massive impact on total usage.
@@crazysquirrel9425better yet don't use a microwave. It kills the little nutrition in the food. Plus the only thing you really miss out on is microwave popcorn but there are other ways to make popcorn and they are generally cheaper.
General rule of thumb when it comes to solar: It's cheaper to reduce than to produce. There's two forms of grid-tied solar: Net Metering kWh for kWh (starting to be less common) or Feed-in Tariff (basically sell wholesale and purchase retail). I'm glad that I am on the kWh for kWh program which gives me the ability to be net zero for many years. It took me about 2 years of logging my consumption data and with that data, I was able to make my home more efficient to make solar to work for me. Here's some data I have from my central 2.5 ton (30,000 Btu) heat pump from Jan to Dec 2023 with thermostat set at 79° F cooling and 70° F heating in West Central Florida. My total energy usage is 2,907 kWh (2.907 Mwh) for the entire year or roughly 7.96 kWh per day. Note that my auxiliary 5 kW electric backup heat strips is disabled since it rarely goes below 40° F on the coldest of evenings. HVAC is the most difficult to calculate depending the thermal loading characteristics of each home is quite different; plus I keep my thermostat on the higher than average side during the summer since I am able to maintain below 45% humidity at those settings.
Agreed. A LOT cheaper to reduce. But, like I said in the video, almost no homeowners are signing up for a $50,000 loan on some panels AND getting excited about turning their thermostat up to 80 or opening the windows instead. It just doesn't happen.
No net metering, period. Use what you produce and store rest in battery. Run down battery when no sun and buy rest from utility company. 100% off grid makes no sense, only if there is no grid available since one has no choice.
We still pay $70 a month from grid even if we use no electricity at all. Just connection fee. That’s $16,800 in 20 years to stay connected to grid when in off grid. only need grid power for 2-3 months of the year. A generator can run for 1-3 hours consuming as little as $5 in fuel to charge batteries to 100% and provide a days worth of power or more on cloudy days. Full off grid does make sense given the circumstances
Then when you factor in power surges coming from grid that fry electronics (happened to us and neighbors) it adds more cost. Power outages from grid in days or up to a week at a time we have had makes us need a generator anyways. So that cost is a write off…
I agree with @bestgreenhomestead here. Off grid makes total sense in a lot of scenarios. The relationship between homeowner and utility gets more and more one sided when it comes to pricing and also solar. They hold all the cards. And what do you get when they fail to provide you the service they are supposed to provide, such as in the winter of 2021 in Texas?? You get 200+ deaths and exorbitant power bills for what little power you were able to consume.
A great dose of reality for anyone thinking about dipping their toes in the solar arena. I'm in the process of learning, building a small system to run 6 circuits on a transfer switch. I have a whole house generator if we loose power for an extended time but you don't want to run that at night. I just wanted enough to run my refrigerators and freezer, some lights in the bath etc. So I have no pressure to power everything, it's more of a hobby for me. But this is a great video for those thinking of going all in, to know the limitations and have realistic expectations.
Thank you for the honesty. I realized this as well, when I was planning to upgrade to achieve zero bill, but decided not to and instead just run my old solar set-up on all the convenience outlet, let the Air-conditioner feed off from the utility. The original plan was to have the Air-conditioner feed from Solar and batteries, but that is too expensive.
It really is out of reach for almost all of us. Hopefully we can change the narrative over time to "solar is a great 10 year investment by helping you decrease your power bill" instead of the current promises and instant gratification being given.
Your system costs are off. 16 460w bifacial panels, 13 k inverter, 30 kwh battery bank. $ 24 k . Did it myself. No electrical backround. Watched hours of youtube.
I did things similar to you, but I didn't tie into grid because my utility scams solar customers. Got 24 panels, 24kwh worth of batteries, 2 inverters. Run my kitchen & living room off grid. Freezer is an energy hog. I need to cut down 1 tall tree right next to 1 bank of panels & that will give me about 4 more hours @ 2kw, then I can add in coverage for more of the house. I now realize I'm going to need a dedicated bank just for the laundry room & A/C, since we never run both at the same time. So the materials cost me $18k so far. I have a solar tracker base I need to install to boost output for my ground mounted panels. Supposedly will boost output 40%. We'll see. My utility company has noticed my usage drop & are coming over to "inspect." Nothing they can do. Not grid-tied. But I have a feeling they're going to raise a stink.
Have 1 to 1 net metering in Florida, and it's great, the utility acts as the battery. With 5.8h/d of average peak irradiance it's been working quite well. Couple things I have learned, wire gauge drives line loss, advocate for larger gauge wire for long runs, build bigger then you need because you can always use more energy not the other way around, and do your research on equipment and installer.
What you highlighted is an excellent reason to include energy storage (batteries) when designing your solar system. Instead of sending the excess energy to the grid, put it into batteries so you can withdrawal it when your solar panels aren't producing. In your example, instead of paying $0.25/kWh you would be paying $0.06/kWh since the that kWh will be locally consumed before ever making to the grid. Solar+batteries have dropped in price considerably over the last year. Equally important is selecting the right appliances and systems to reduce your electrical usage as well as making your home energy efficient. The latter will be a much better use of your money than upsizing your solar system. When I replaced the cheap aluminum clad builder-grade windows and glass doors this winter with much more energy efficient ones, the energy used for heating dropped by 70%. Yes, it was expensive. Then I turned the attic space in conditioned space (the indoor air handler is located there) by adding a few inches of closed cell spray foam to the attic's roof. Yes, more money. Energy usage for heating dropped again. I also swapped out the 20+ year old 3 ton furnace & A/C for a new cold climate 2.5 ton inverter heat pump (no resistive elements) and the 20 year old gas water heater for an electric 15kW tankless unit rendering my 1300 sqft home all electric. Together those upgrades add up to a little more than the solar+battery system I am getting. I live in AZ and this summer the super efficient heat pump typically draws less than 1kW to cool my place to 77. A 20 minute shower costs also uses about a kWh and costs a dime. My baseline power draw (lights, stuff, fridge) is about 120W or about 3 kWh / day. On hot summer or cold winter days, this rises to about 15 kWh. In spring and fall when the heat pump is off, I average about 4.5 kWh / day. This summer my electric bill is averaging about $60. Adding solar to my place makes no financial sense with a pay back period of nearly 20 years for a 8.8 kW-dc system with 27 kWh of battery storage and 22 kVA power draw. Regardless, I'm having it installed anyways. It's oversized so I shouldn't need to draw power from the grid even in December or January.
Great video, most people don't realize this until they get a quote or start using their system. I am going to get a small system that is enough to charge the basics and cover lighting in a down grid event. Eventually, I would like to scale up to handle a refrigerator.
Thanks! I appreciate that. Yeah, hopefully I can help a few people understand this BEFORE they sign on the dotted line with that solar sales guy promising them no electric bill.
Good info. Definitely good to figure out how much power you need for the things you use one at a time, instead of trying to guess how much power everything you use needs.
Hello, I live in Ukraine and I have 7 kw solar array + 6 kwh of batteries. From May till October I have an excessive amount of energy. And I can run 2 water heaters + 3 air conditioning units just fine. Zero bill. Solar heating in cold months is obviously not an option. Yet I'm able to run the heaters from the solar power for 4-5 hours in sunny winter days. So that I can spare some wood, and not use stove in the morning.
Depends on where you live, my local utility trades 1 to 1 kw/hrs. They charge $0.10 per kw/hr for usage and give you a 1 kw/hr credit for every 1 kw/hr you generate. If you generate more kw credits than you need to reach net zero at the end of a cycle, it rolls over to the next cycle. Credits never expire, but can not be exchanged for money. If you cancel the service with excess credits unused, then those credits are lost.
Love this video! I consider myself an ‘EcoRealist’. Meaning I know that dirty energy still needs to be used from time to time but that doesn’t mean I can’t strive to do better and be more self reliant.
The biggest energy consumer for me is my gas heat in the winter! So much so that I have decided to make three different systems. One for each refrigerator I use and then one for the main part of the house. You would be surprised at how much this helps during the winter time. So I need about 1500 W in solar panels for each refrigerator. A small inverter of around 1500 W, and a charge controller that can bring in that wattage. Not to mention a 3 to 5 kW battery. Understand that I live in the Pacific Northwest, which makes a lot of difference in the winter time!
First, thanks for the presentation which I believe a lot of folks need to understand. I have been planning on going solar for many years, however, I'm still in the process of minimizing my loads (it's been going on for over 10 years). At a minimum you have to target your building envelope and get your heating/cooling loads to a minimum - these are the biggest power drains. Now that I'm done with this phase (foam insulation, sealed gaps, triple and quadruple paned windows), I'm looking at ground source heat pumps with one temperature loads (this is how the brits do it and I like it - it minimizes the number of pumps required). You could also do some of the super high efficient air source heat pumps with COPs around 4 at 17KW loads (net 4.25KW/hr under load). Rather than doing net metering, I'm planning on having 2 separate systems - 1 off grid and one grid tied. I'll slowly move my key systems off grid and leave those not as important grid tied. Now to see if my town/utility will approve this. My feeling is that I should be able to as long as I have the systems discrete - but who knows. My solar will start with 8K of panels and about 15K-25K of batteries.
Sounds like a cool system! I hope it works out well for you but it sounds like you are doing your prep work ahead of time and realistic about what you can expect once you take the plunge.
I still live off grid in the Sierra, have for 35 years. You are spot on with your analysis! By the way, I owned Sierra electric Solar for over 20 years during this time, specializing in off grid applications as a systems designer. Believe me, solar has greatly improved over the last 5 years, but it's still extremely expensive. I estimate I've spent over 200 thousand dollars over and above solar in generators and fuel to offset winter months. But you know, I wouldn't have traded a anything for the freedom of not being monitored by the govt for a second.
Oh absolutely. I still advocate for almost anyone to do it. They just need to have the right mindset and expectations and know how to do it properly. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I decided it made more sense to just go off grid, get a gas generator, solar, and modify my loads then try to do net metering and pay the monthly tax to be tied to the system. Not to mention all the cost to hybrid tie in and all the permits needed to tie in. In my state it makes more sense to go off grid and just buy fuel for the cloudy stretch then oversize battery banks or go hybrid
I’m a bit of a fan of an engineering project. I love my off grid setup but I use a battery charger for the night time since I only have 400ah for batteries at the moment but soon I will have a 100f ultra capacitor bank installed into the system so that when the solar is going it gets used before the batteries. The batteries will only be used when the caps fully discharge which means that it will only happen at night and a few times during the day. I plan on having 100f per battery in my setup eventually. I also try to convert to DC powered items when it makes the most sense. It makes it so less energy goes wasted. All my lights are DC the stereo/amplifier system is DC, and my TV runs on DC. Eventually my PC will too but I need to literally redesign the ATX power supply to do that. My fridge is DC and Propane powered as well. 60 pounds of propane lasts months for a fridge just fine. My phone has a DC powered plug as well. Appliances and AC seems like the only thing that you should be using AC for in my experience. The only way you can get away from this problem is if you’re willing to use Power Over PV devices. It’s less money to setup but can also risk damaging your devices that weren’t designed for use with it as the power fluctuates like crazy when using this technology. It’s great for lawn equipment though and charging your power tools, and cooking when the sun is available. Power over PV is when you use solar panels more directly for your devices without having any batteries and more often than not you use a large capacitor instead to balance the incoming load then discharge it into your device of choice. This can be used for ceramic heating as well in the winter. You won’t manage to get a commercial product however so a little DIY is necessary. All that really is required is to do the math on how much heating wire you have for the current provided from the panel. Then making a structure that makes it safe for use with fuses and switches to finish it up.
Crying shame people are being scammed so bad by the solar companies installing these systems on the net metering garbage if it's available. Building out these huge solar arrays with little or no storage capacity. But then on the inside of that, if you're buying batteries ready made your getting jacked up on server rack batteries. Clearly the biggest expense but most important part of a working usable system. Mini splits are the way to go for HVAC hands down if you live where heat pumps are feasible. Way more efficient. My whole house consumption is about 25 to 30kwh each day. I've DIY'd my own system. A trio of controllers tracking 14.4kw charging 90kwh of LFP battery banks I built myself pushing out 18kw AC to my mains. Cost is right at $20k. People need to seriously educate themselves and have a better than vague understanding of what solar is before they ever talk to anyone about providing a system for them. Just like the HVAC industry has been jacking people for years for their ignorance, solar salesmen are circling the bloody water like a pack of sharks. There would and could be a lot more people off the grid for power if not for the greed.
I agree. Mini splits are the way to go. But if you are building a home, passive solar and major investments in thermal efficiency are far better than anything else. Thanks for your wisdom!
I'm all about cautionary tales, and due diligence is required from everyone before they squeeze the trigger and spend time and cash. My advice: Define exactly what you hope to accomplish, keeping the future in mind, then don't move the goalpost. I started out thinking how wonderful it would be to have a solar powered mini split cooling my garage for free. That evolved into: " what how much would it cost to put in mini splits throughout my home and get off my 4 ton Heat Pump. Then I thought: I really need backup power and started assessing my energy use throughout my home. For me being able to run my HVAC is important. Sizing a system large enough to cover my cycling Heat Pump covers most sporadic incidental loads, but not my electric oven, or clothes dryer. I already had a soft start installed on my HVAC allowing me run it off my propane powered portable generator. I was lucky in that I already had a standing seam metal roof on my house. If you install solar on your house you will be required to spend more money on a rapid shutdown system to protect first responders from getting shocked in that one in a billion chance that your house catches on fire. Don't even get me started on the little tin gods inspectors office. Solar prices have been cut in half over the last 5 years so it's within your grasp just be smart about it and plan on spending good money up front.
I’m learning a lot as I monitor my power usage in my tiny home. 12kwh was my biggest day this winter using electric heat. Looking like I will need 2-3000 watts of solar. I think my plan will be to maximize how much solar I can put on my trailer and also do an automated generator for the big use days. Im in a great spot for wind so I may as well get a decent spinner as well. Would be nice if someone could build a wood stove that can convert wood to electricity. I’m only running math so far as I also have a wood stove installed and also a diesel heater. It would be nice to not have to run those if possible but it’s looking like that might be harder than I expected. I gotta figure it out before summer as I’m definitely doing solar this year but to what extent I don’t know yet.
There are thermoelectric generators that you can attach to a wood stove and get some small amount of electricity from. Enough to charge your personal electronic devices. But I agree. To get 12kWh in winter, though, you are going to need a heck of a lot more than 3,000W of panels. It will come down to your battery bank size and how willing you are to run your generator for several hours to charge up your battery bank.
…I have solar, and, am hooked to the grid… the grid doesn’t pay me… the grid, stores my excess power… this winter, is my first yr, of 50 yrs of adulthood, that my cost for air conditioning, and winter heat, has been simply the service charge of the grid connection. ($17.00), The grid stores my excess power perpetually…it’s banking my power..
Please stay objective and stick to the truth… there are many places where electric power is cheap and then you are partially right, but there are plenty of places where the costs are high…. If you have the money to buy a diesel guzzler RV you have the money to buy 2 x 450Wp Solarpanels which will set you back some about US Pesos 300.00. The actual costs of a solar systems are with the storage Batteries
I did. What was untrue in the video? The problem has nothing to do with the cost of electricity. It has to do with how much money you get from selling your electricity back to the electric utility. And for the overwhelming majority (and soon to be all of us), the utility will not pay us the same rate for our power as we pay them for theirs. So that creates a major problem for those who are trying to have a low or zero electric bill, as outlined in the video. 900W of solar power on an RV will not change anything, either. You cannot run your air conditioner for any meaningful length of time with that and, depending on what loads you run, you may have to make sacrifices with devices you would normally run overnight.
This is good information. Real world also need to account for loss through wiring. Unless you can install an oversize system (which is restricted to your avg yearly home consumption in Canada), the most effective solution is to reduce consumption and insulate/increase home efficiency. Windows and large sliding doors, no matter what they tell you about 4 pane superglazed mass mayhem argon tetrahydric eco-powered bamboo friendly glass - ARE absolutely a terrible terrible insulator, both in warm and cold climates. If you cant get rid of windows, shade them inside AND outside to help your Air conditioner. IF you can really afford it, Batteries are an option, but their installation and additional components are quite expensive as of 2024. Stay gold
expectations are what is a solar killer. People don't seem to understand how having a solar system that connects to the grid works and also the maintenance that is required for the system, that is what kills the idea, not to mention the shady crap some solar sales and installers do just to get a buck.
thanks for the eye opener. Here in Montreal, they dont give much back for net metering. I would rather instal a battery bank since the pricing is comping down. I would like a system just off set my grid tie monthy $$. I know it would take many years to break even but its simply a DIY and a hobby.
If you are getting some enjoyment and satisfaction and independence from doing it then I'd say go for it. Don't worry as much about the payback period. But I think you will find that if you choose the right components and avoid garbage Grade B lithium batteries then you will have a long term asset that will pay dividends for a while.
We (our HOA) bought a 20.9 kW system about 8 years ago for EUR 34k (~US$37k). The 30 kW system nowadays should cost less than US$ 50k. If you want to cover your own consumption, then you could go for an east-west configuration as it covers more of your own energy consumption. One mistake in the video is that you do not need a lot of sunlight to get enough power to run an airconditioning. In summer you can produce at least some power from ~6 in the morning until 6 in the evening. Say you need 1 kW, then you only need to produce 1/30th of your maximum output if you have a 30 kW system. But the video is right that going for a zero power bill isn't worth it. Just get panels that produce about what you use currently, and you should roughly cut your electric bill in half. E.g. you use 5,000 kWh/yr, get panels that can produce about that. Roughly that's 5 kWp, depending on where you live. In my new house in the Philippines there is no feed-in tariff. I'm thinking about getting a battery and just 1 or 2 kWp of solar and use the aircon mostly when the sun is shining. I have no aircon right now, but when I buy it, that will make it worth it to buy solar. I should get 1.4 kWh/yr per Wp here. I use less than 1,000 kWh/yr without aircon, so solar isn't worth it yet. The battery is mostly because we get too many blackouts here.
I live in Alberta Canada. We have retailers that buy and sell us power at Solar Club rates. Spring, Summer and Fall we switch to a high rate of 30 cents a kWh. We buy it at that rate and we sell it at that rate. Earning credits bills for nine months of the year. Then in winter we switch back to the lower normal rate of 10 cents a kWh. My system is 9000 watts of grid tie facing South, East and West. I pay nothing for power and the left over credits cover about 80% of my gas heating.
Solar panels and batteries to store the energy is very expensive. The mindset you need to have is that solar is "helping" you save on your energy bill in the LOOOONG RUN. It is like putting pocket change in a can everyday when you come home. In a few years there are a few hundred debased dollars that you can buy one good night out dinner! LOL!! Great video!
Correct. It is a long term investment but still needs to be done right. Solar panel companies do not have your best interest in mind sometimes. And you'll never get a performance guarantee from them in writing. So educate yourself, get a modest system that will achieve a strong 10-14 year ROI, and then be patient.
That's absolutely incorrect. I paid less than $10,000 for all of my gear and it meets about 90% of my annual need and my payback is a little under four years. I can also turn off my grid power and go for weeks on my solar and batteries. Although I do have a small house and I live in a very temperate climate.
I have no intention of going off grid. My plan is to generate enough solar to pay for itself and the battery backup in ten years with energy savings. The grid is now my backup to solar for charging the batteries only on cloudy days. In the chance of a grid down event and no sunlight days I can completely charge my battery bank for the next 24 hours in just a few hours with either of my tri-fuel generators. Luckily I live in the north and central air is a convienience not a requirement tho I can run it on one of my generators if needed. My power requirements are low since natural gas supplies heat, hot water, cooking, clothes drying and runs the generators.
I live off grid in Australia the land down under have a north aspect (Southern hemisphere) and built up my system over the years from 12v to 24v then reconfigured for 48v. About 3kw of solar with a 5kva inverter wired to the house at 240v and storage of 9.6kw Lifepo4 batteries ( I will upgrade adding another battery to 13.8 kw which for me will be ideal, these Lifep04 batteries are the greatest and ideal for solar). I still have two of my original solar panel the are 30 yrs old and still provide useable power. Solar is so cheap now compared to 20 years ago and there are a lot of low energy appliances these days. I live reasonable comfortably using low power everything from LED TVs, lights, lots of ceiling fans a 7 kw split system air con heater and heat pump hot water. Ceiling fans are the best low power option for summer and great for circulating heat over winter. I also charge my plug in hybrid car. Over summer I have plenty of energy but over winter I need to monitor my usage. I mainly use wood heating over winter which I collect from my small hobby farm. It's a low voltage system from the roof and do it yourself system which was added to over time when I had the money. The whole system to date has cost less than $20,000.
That is great to hear! There have been several Aussies comment on this video in similar situations as you. The common thread is always what I described in the video for many of us mindless Americans... you cannot switch to solar power and expect no bill or a low bill unless you change some of your habits and lifestyle. Like you mentioned, you are using all low power appliances and devices. Lots of fans instead of blasting air conditioning all day. Thanks for sharing!
One thing I'm planning to do in my next house (this one has way too small of a yard) is geothermal air conditioning. With a big enough area (and it doesn't really take all that much), you can pretty much eliminate all "heating" and "cooling" by digging down, usually only around 10', and pumping air (or, better yet, anti-freeze) through coils and up through a radiator. The only cost at that point is the pump for the air (or anti-freeze) and blowers to circulate the conditioned air through your house. I live in the Pacific NW with a pretty moderate climate, so there isn't that much of a tax on the system. Even if I need a little bit of heat in the winter, it's still substantially cheaper than having to run heat and AC throughout the year, or even for 1/2 the year.
I understand your point. But I disagree with your ideology. My 7.9 Kw system averages about 1300 Kwh per month. I am grid tied in SW Georgia. I have two EVs and a heat pump. While my neighbors pay about $180 per month. My bill averages around $70 per month. I do admit that this is not a zero bill. The savings more than justify the cost of installation. And if my inverter fails. I can still rely on the grid.
Your data proves my point. 1300kWh per month is 43.33kWh per day, which is far higher than the national average consumption in the United States per household according to the Department of Energy (www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3). So the fact that you are producing that much power (which is phenomenal output for an 8kW system, by the way) and still have an $80 bill each month just further proves how awful net metering is. Also, you are saving $110 per month compared to your neighbors. An average 7.9kWh system in the US would cost around $22,000 installed. So in your case, that will take you 16.67 years to pay itself back. That is a below average ROI on a solar panel system for a solar friendly state like Georgia. Most systems that I design for people have a payback period of around 12-14 years. Your investment is still sound but do you think that your cogeneration relationship with the utility will stay the same for the next 17 years until you start making free power? Not a chance. Your electricity price will continue to rise and the price they pay you for the power you make will continue to drop. In fact, there are some places where utilities are already refusing to buy any power from their customers.
@@LDSreliance I agree. I never expected to have a $0. electric bill. You are also correct in most of your math. I just don't believe most buyers expect a $0. elec bill. And yes, the electric company has changed their rate by 40% and pay me 60% less than originally agreed to. When it gets more unreasonable I will invest in battery backup. Which gets cheaper each year. Giving me a lower electric bill and emergency power during blackouts. Fortunately for me. I got a 30% tax credit on my system. So it cost me around $16,000 and I paid cash so there is no actual interest. I think we are on the same page. I just never expected something for nothing. I always take the long view on my investments. Otherwise, everyone would have solar by now.
I think you are more reasonable than most of the homeowners that I have talked to and assisted over the years. I did a few videos on this a year or two ago but all of the Facebook ads for solar are almost all highly misleading and some are just downright lying to you. And the door to door solar sales guys are also almost all using the "no or low power bill" hook to get people to invest. I see stories on the local news (when i am forced to watch it in a waiting room or something) that feature some poor homeowner that got taken for $80k in solar and still has a $200 electric bill. It is crazy.
Heating water is by far the most expensive in terms of energy use. Heating the hot tub and pool is very expensive. I turned on my little portable water heater that boils water for my French press, watching it through the enphase app, it jumps to 6kWh use.
If your French press is using 6,000W you need to throw it away, my friend. Even a large electric water heater for an entire house, like I have, is only about 5,000W. And that is a dual heating element unit that is heating 80 gallons.
@@LDSrelianceWell think about it, its designed to bring a small amount of water to 212 degrees F in a very short period of time, it is maybe on for 2 minutes max vs a water heater which is designed to heat a larger volume of water up to what 105-110? My point is that heating water is one of the most costly things you can do energy wise.
That is the key, though. Small amount of water. A coffee maker uses a max of 1200W. I agree that any sort of electric heating is bad. It doesn't have to be heating for HVAC. Electric clothes dryers, hair dryers, air fryers, toaster ovens, microwaves, hot water heaters, and even curling irons all use lots of power. But most people underestimate just how much it hurts, especially if you use it outside of peak sun hours after going solar.
@@LDSrelianceRecently caught a video on heatpump hybrid water heaters which are pretty efficient to start with. But in the south many of the water heaters are in the garage, which kills two birds with one stone, you have the exhaust being really cool air which cools the garage, and the higher efficiency of the heatpump. Great efficiency and use the waste, that's pretty hard to beat.
You convinced em. I dont want solar. If I want power when the sun is not shining I would need thousands of dollars worth of batteries and that would be bad. I got an estimate for solar for my home and it was 75,000.00 dollars. I don't think so.
Don't give up on solar. Just educate yourself until you know how to use it properly and then you can go to the solar companies and tell them what you want instead of them selling you what they want you to have.
Move. One for one “Net Metering” does exist. Grid tied systems have the electrical system as its battery. Over generate when it’s sunny, draw down your credited surplus when it is less so. Consumers need a lobby, because net metering is good for everyone in a relative way.
They don't honor grandfathered agreements. There is not a single IOU in the country that still does 1:1 net metering. The only places you can still find it are small, independent coops and rural electric districts. There are a handful of IOU's that still have semi-favorable net metering terms but all of those are in talks and have plans to continue to move along the trend that California and other states have set that are decidedly NOT in favor of the homeowner/cogenerator.
On the Off grid system The AC to DC conversions while moving power to and from the battery take a huge chunk off of the profits as well. A complete DC solar system could avoid it, but I think is harder to implement without proper knowledge.
That is true, but even with the losses inherent with batteries they are still superior than selling power back to the utility for pennies. And they also give you the ability to use power when the grid is down, which is a large incentive in going solar, in my opinion.
Greetings: All true. I reali*e this is not about types of installations panels, cells Etc. U 4got 2 tell them about different panels 4 different climates, Good show. Thx 4 the share.
3 things, dirt, poor weather, night time. But there is always that early morning and late afternoon thing that doesn't help much ether, but it's just great during those few mid day hours, it's quite a charge...
Or you can do what I do and chuck all that energy into batteries and then the batteries discharge to my household loads all night long. $12,000 out-of-pocket with a 30% tax credit and an ROI of less than four years.
1:00 The solar panel operates the roof fan during the day. It stores energy in the battery to run the fan during the night. But America is quite windy. We can reduce the load of the solar panel by using a wind turbine.
I agree in principle. But show me a wind turbine with any meaningful production that you can use mounted to the roof of an RV. I've been looking for something like that for 12 years. There aren't any, unfortunately.
@@LDSreliance There are +5kW wind turbines on the market. Wind turbines must be at a certain height to work. It would be difficult to install the +165kg wind turbine on the roof of the caravan. Dismantling the turbine while leaving will again be extremely troublesome. That's why special wind turbines need to be developed for caravans. For example, the energy produced in the turbine can be transferred to the electric motor through gears and shafts. In this way, we can place the electric motor on the floor of the caravan. When necessary, we can turn the vertical shaft into a horizontal position with the help of a simple mechanism (Mechanical engineers can easily handle this). We can even do this automatically with an electric linear actuator. You can even make good money from this. Here's an idea.
I agree. I keep seeing promising technology, such as new VAWT designs, but they never come to market. Even some ultra small ones that are portable and designed for tent camping and hiking. You can see stuff like that on Kickstarter all the time but never commercially available. It is very frustrating.
story time I have 3 24 v small systems 1 on 2 freezers and entertainment another on refrigerator and a bigger 6000w 24v that runs the house the first two systems run 24 7 I spent 13000 for all plus panels 3 years in no problems knock on wood like your video my last p g e bill was 65 dollars compared to 375
Yes. If you were building a new home and planned to go solar from the beginning, you could improve the efficiency and insulation of your home greatly, which would decrease the need for air conditioning and heating and pay off in the long run.
@@LDSreliance That is very good too know. It would be cool if you could to a little test setup and show the difference. If you can't due to cost I understand.
That would be very hard to do a test on. I don't have Mythbusters' budget :) But I'll think about how I could do that. I am building some buildings in the near future so I will do some videos on the topic while I build for sure, even if I can't test anything quantitatively.
I think you missed variable in your calculation (grid tied example - ceiling fan) - you are not accounting for the $0.25 electricity that I DO NOT have to buy during the daytime. All the electricity that I consume (that is, before it is sold to the grid for $0.06) is saving me $0.25. So for example, if I ran my sitting room fan for 8 hours during the day - on solar - then I will have saved $0.25x8 (or what I would have spent the night before). Night time usage is not only offset by exporting, but also from NOT importing.
No, that is double counting the "savings". You get the benefit at night when you don't have to buy the electricity. If you use the electricity during the day, that is less you can use at night, which means you WILL be buying that energy at night instead.
I bought all of my equipment on the Internet and installed it myself and did not pull a permit or get an interconnection agreement with the electric utility and I operate my system in zero export mode. I did however claim the 30% tax credit and my system saves me about $2600 per year in avoided electrical costs and my payback period is about four years.
@@LDSreliance oh yes! Got that covered, installing off grid solar systems for 26 years now. I can't believe how much the prices have come down since I was a youngster.
If you pay 25 cents and get a credit of 6 cents per kW, it is not really net metering, but an unfair arrangement. In Ontario, Canada, you still get a 1:1 credit. I hope that it will remain like this. In 2023, I ha a zero electrical bill!
Utility companies don’t want your electricity in the daytime,especially since grid scale solar farms are coming on line exponentially. It would be unreasonable to expect them to pay more than the $,04 per KWH it costs to produce it themselves. Grid. scale batteries are also coming on line which shows the way for home owners.I have 50KWH of LFP server rack batteries which you can buy from Signature Solar for $12,690 . I can’t imagine why I would want to sell power to the grid except during peak hours if they paid extra for it. The high cost and complexity of grid tie is hard to recover. Also if you buy the system from a solar company, you can’t make modifications until it is paid for. In contrast,off grid DIY can be scaled up incrementally paying cash as you add panels,batteries,or inverter capacity. Since battery and panel prices and technology are improving, it makes even more sense to avoid going into debt by buying a huge system when you can take advantage of improvements in price and performance.
I'm fine with that. The problem is the goalposts keep moving. At first it was 1:1. And I agree that wasn't sustainable as solar gained popularity. But now with NEM 3.0 in California, you get a couple pennies per kWh and pay $0.30+ per kWh in some places. And I'm fine with the different rates but they don't also need connection fees (monthly fees just for the privilege of being connected to their system) and large up front fees when you are doing the install. I just want to highlight to people that the days of net zero energy bills are over.
*You need at least a football field's worth of solar panels just to have the power you need.* Remember, many days are cloudy. Winter time has less sunshine. And then there is snow.... Remember, you have a lot of losses due to electronics to run the system. And battery inefficiency/lifespan comes to mind too. Fun fact: did you know they make a hand crank laptop?
Here's a plan that's working. And one needs to take in account that night power after 8pm until 7am is off peak. So you use and produce solar during peak. Tune heating and air to gain ground during peak and only slowly maintain losing ground over night. Use a heat pump for this. 40% more efficient than trad heat and ac. Get 4kwh of battery to cover spike loads day and night, aka microwave. Bath or shower... 30KWH system in MN is about 80k. But a 11kwh system is 40k.
That could work. If your house was very well insulated and efficient it would take many hours for the temperature to drop or raise to an uncomfortable level. But that is exactly my point in the video. You can't run your AC and electric heat the same way you did when you were paying the power company for grid power. You have to make concessions or alterations or investments or change in habits in order to make it work. And most people aren't willing to do that.
Been scratching my head wondering why more arent building offgrid - guess its just lack of knowledge. Planning on building my own 48v system with a transfer switch, no feedin. Top quality equipmemt, still cheaper than grid tie, works thru a blackout.
Ultimately, the powers that be do not want you self sufficient in any way. If lots of people were to go off grid and become truly self sufficient, the gubment would tax their production and put other regulations on them. ...and it would all be "for your own good".
I pay around 15dlls a month after I changed to led lights upgraded tv and washer , fire stick instead of a PC,solar makes no sense for me but I did buy 1 solar panel and one solar generator, more for an emergency especially rainy days power goes out for a day or 2. Great video love them
I always find it so crwzy when people pay so little for pwr when ive beennused to my family paying $500 on low end to $1000 a month in summer when we have to run ac and not even full time. We suffer and wait til it hits 100° before we turn the ac on because the cost is just outrageous. Our average is $750 a month for a 1 story 5 bed house. But 10 ppl live here. We go through about 16kwh a month averaged throughout the year.
But also since you have a little battery and solar panel why not just have it out and collect that energy and pay maybe $10 a month or $5 a month and charge your cellphone/ other small items on that free energy?
@@vincentsgaming holly molly, my highest last year was 30bucks a month and lowest 10 bucks, I just have one ac and never really use it, usually use fans, we are only 4 people, I am in puerto Vallarta mexico now, when I was in San Diego my electric bill was higher can't remember what it was
@@vincentsgamingthat's good idea actually setting it up I got a desk where I have my xbox , PC, couple laptops the cell phones and a treadmill all hooked up to the solar generator, I'll save a couple bucks and it will pay for itself in 30 years lol I spent about 1k DLLs , save a bit while I wait for the grid down 😆.
@SlackersIndustry yeah man. Buying the panel and battery and not using it until an emergency occurs is not very cost effective. If you have it might as well use it and start payijg it off in savings quicker rather then later. How many watts is that panel you bought? Must be a lot if you plan on running all those items. And of course even if it only saves you $5-$10 a month thats extra food you can go buy yourself, or hell save it up for another panel and double your savings.
Here is a tip to help you plan your system. This works if you currently have a smart meter. My utilities smart meter allows me to view hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, and up to 2 years' worth of data. Now you know how to plan for average daily intake consumption and how much battery storage for nightly consumption. 😊
The common sense approach to residential housing isn’t that common. Let’s say that you are building a 1600 sq. Ft. home and you were given a $40,000 dollar grant to reduce your energy consumption. You could easily spend that on solar but if you improved your building envelope and design you could eliminate 90% of your HVAC costs. Then by spending more on the most efficient appliances your electricity required to run your home would be very reasonable. If you wanted the best bang for your buck solar in this scenario there are some mini- split systems that you can power directly from 4 solar panels without the use of inverters and back them up with the grid greatly reducing your expense and if the building has the right amount of mass you might not need much additional energy to maintain reasonable comfort. The benefit of this is that even when there’s no sun your energy requirements are much less.
At 4:00, To simplify my thought, does'nt the kwh produced simply run the meter backwards during the day and then when its off the meter runs forwards using up all the power we generated all day? You seem to be implying I have to produce 4 times more power during peak hours to offset the nightime use, (only spinning the meter backwards at .06 kwh while spinning it forward at .25 kwh under all circumstances). This seems innacurate but I certainly see where the power company would do that. If you are correct, then the best we could hope for is a system sized to perfectly keep the meter from spinning forward during peak hours, and certainly not one that runs the meter backwards at all, correct? Sorry for the confusing manner of my question, I am still trying to figure out how to ask it. Is there any way to just get credited one for one per kwh, or is it .06 no matter what, meaning we would really need an expensive battery bank to get full use out of not running the meter forward? Hmmm, does a kwh IN always equal .06 and a kwh OUT always equal .25 in your scenerio, or does the first hour out in the evening come from the hours I put into the grid during the daylight?
No, that is not how it works in the majority of the country. What you are describing is 1:1 net metering. In other words, 1 input from you = 1 output from them. That is no longer the case. Utilities are paying 1/2 or less (sometimes as low as 1/12) for your power as they charge you for theirs.
It is true what you say. But you should deduct the energy you produce when the sun is out. I mean, if you get 6 hours of sun your panels will provide all the energy you need for the 6 hours. And you pay for the 2,5 hours left
You are not pointing out "killers" of solar. These are just typical loads that use electricity. Of course you need larger panels to run all of your loads. The more power you can produce is less you have to buy. I have a small solar system and save $20 to $25 per month on my electric bill. It also gives me back up power during power failures.
You can call them whatever you want... gotchas, killers, hurdles, land mines, etc. People look at a tiny roof fan on an RV and dismiss it as insignificant. That is the point I am making.
Battery storage is 10 cents per kwhr over life of system. That is less than 1/2 the cost of buying a kwhr from utility vastly reducing size of PV array needed. You don't need a weeks worth of battery for worst case situation. Use grid for multi day cloudy periods. Alt is oversize array to get substantial charge in cloudy weather, probably still cheaper than grid.
I agree with you in general. It depends on where you live on the costs from your utility, though. And your pricing on battery storage is dependent on what kind of battery you are buying (even among lithium iron phosphate there are several grades of batteries from the Amazon junk to the certified Grade A batteries with top shelf cells). But batteries very clearly are the answer to all of our grid problems.
I have a 7kW grid-tied system (in New Zealand) , for which I've kept some fairly extensive records. During 2023 I consumed 3940.5kWh of my generated electricity and imported 2364.7kWh from the grid. Normally this total amount of electricity (6305.17kWh) would have cost me NZ$2151.77. The billed cost of the imported electricity was $800.07, so I've already saved $1344.69 right from the start. However, during the same period I also exported 5100.91kWh, for which I received credits of $612.11 - the price ratio between import and export is approximately 2.25 -, leaving me to pay the net cost of $194.97 for my imported electricity out of my own pocket. With that amount of potential additional savings each year I can't justify spending money on a car battery, never mind anything bigger. Currently I'm expecting an 8~9 year payback period. My conclusion, based on actual numbers from my own system, is that you don't need a huge system to make a significant impact on your electricity costs, but you do need the right climate - in summer my system is producing usable amounts of electricity for around 11 hours each day.
Absolutely. If you are looking at it as a way to decrease your bill and generate a long term return on investment, that is the right way to approach it. Unfortunately, that isn't how it is being sold here in the US.
@@LDSreliance Ok, so if there are different expectations in the US that might explain some of the comments I've seen in the past. As far as I know, no company here sells PVs as anything other than a long-term investment where the return is in the form of significantly reduced, or even in credit, monthly power bills. It's usual here to own your setup outright. I'd be genuinely interested in knowing what the sales pitch is in the US and where the return is expected to come from, because I can't at the moment see any other way you could view such an investment - but I'm more of an technical type person than a marketing type, so I might be missing something obvious.
Most residential rooftop systems are sold as completely eliminating your power bill OR making it small enough that the power bill plus the solar payment is less than the previous power bills were. In other words, an immediate savings. In my experience, 9 times out of 10 that is not going to happen. And I haven't seen an electricity bill that was a credit here in the states in a long, long time.
Like gas heating (and petroleum) , electricity is more expensive in the UK and where I live in the north we get less sunshine. I'm expanding my solar, I'll likely never get my money back but at equivalent of 40-50 cents per KW/h it's a matter of principle not giving my cash to the energy companies. I'm looking at sand batteries and other means to store heat but also heat pumps. I'm surprised at how much it costs per month to power a big fridge freezer buy I enjoy seeing how much I can save on electricity bills by using solar. It's pretty much night time here as I write this but I do so on a Mac with 2 large screens all powered from today's sunshine stored in huge batteries and the lighting in here as well is from my own energy source. I'm also interested in seeing if I can use solar for the production of hydrogen via electrolysis. It's all theoretical but very interesting.
The number reason is usually there is one person who pays the bill. Since said person pays the bill he is the only person who is turning off lights, TVs, and fans that the other 5 people never turn off. If the bill by law were rotated to the different members they would also be turning off said items instead of looking at him like he is cheap and crazy.
all I would run on mine would be a 55 inch tv , radios , stereo , phone , PC but prob need a good 5kw or more and in England there is hardly any sun in the winter. even the door bell soler pannel failed to charge the camera but now its getting enough day light to do it.
Even a small one on your roof could help in the winter when the sun isn't doing much. It would trickle charge the battery bank around the clock as long as there is a minimum wind speed (usually about 7mph).
The biggest killer for a successful solar system is the use of a cheap, high frequency, transformerless inverter charger. If you want to build a successful, off grid solar system then you'll need to invest in a heavy duty, high peak power, low frequency, transformer based inverter charger.
Even tiny computer fans that are 12V DC consume much more than 1W. Usually at least 5W. But you are correct. It does vary based on speed. But that doesn't change the validity of the point I was making.
@@LDSreliance Thanks for acknowledging, but let’s measure. My MaxxAir ceiling/hatch fan (in my DIY camper van) has 10 setting. Mostly I use setting 1 with 13.3V*0.08A=1W. Sometimes I use settings 2 at 2W or setting 3 at 3.8W. Setting 10 measures 35W, but I never use that - it’s very loud. When camping in warm areas, I often keep this fan on continuously at 1 or 2W. My van has a 2500Whr LiFePO battery, so it can run a very long time. In my house, my wife keeps a 15” floor-standing fan next to our bed. It has low, medium, high and turbo settings. She runs it on low all night, every night. Even on low, it makes a lot of wind. In fact, we have to aim it carefully so she gets wind and I get very little because it would otherwise prevent me from sleeping at all. On low, it measures 41W. That is significant. It measures 50W, 62W, and 70W on medium, high, and turbo, respectively. But we only ever use low. For my computer, when it is awake and on, but not doing anything, it uses 8W. But it will go to a lower-power sleep mode after a while at only 0.8W. It’s a MacBook, or course, and they are very good on power consumption. The fan is controlled and normally at super low speed so you cannot even notice it is on. The only way to get it on fully is by doing something like rendering a video. In that extreme case, the whole computer consumes about 35W with the fans running at max speed. A desktop or more powerful notebook will consume more, but for a shorter duration to render the video. BTW, I am a fan of yours and a long-time subscriber. I only bring this up because I think your video may worry/scare people about their loads. AC and heating do take a lot of power. But LED lighting, audio (music), and fans are usually not much power. Refrigeration isn’t too bad, either, because they are usually well insulated. 75W for a fan is huge and running full blast in turbo mode. Think of an incandescent light bulb at 75W. You can’t touch it; it’ll burn your fingers. (Of interest, incandescent light bulbs are very efficient in winter if you want light and heat at the same time.) Anyway, have a nice rest of day!
I am not trying to worry people. Just get them to think about things that normally get dismissed as insignificant. If you can cool down your camper with a fan moving 50 CFM then more power to you! I have a dual hose portable air conditioner going in my trailer all day long using about 0.8kW per hour and I can't even keep it below 80F.
There are other choices but I agree that freedom is worth more than security. I am afraid that most of us are forgetting that truth in many areas of life.
Some of the information is a little old like costs unless better explained. Solar panels are the cheap part of the equation. Many solar companies pay pennies for the hardware, and mortgage your home to fund their pockets. I just bought 11.4kW of new Aptos solar panels with 30yr warranty for .25 cents/watt with free shipping. A GOOD 30kW solar array if you DIY can be had for $20k-$30k depending on battery needs. Myself I have been upgrading my solar slowly over time. Started with two 340 watt panels, x4 200Ah flooded 6v batteries, powering a few things in the home, and used as a power outage backup. Now, I have 15kW of solar panels (in my yard for easy access), 15.6+kWh of LifePO4 batteries, a GroWatt charge controller, and a 120V 6kW pure sine wave inverter. I'm not rich so I did the build this myself (my father is an electrician who helped guide my power hookups) at my 5 bedroom country home. If I had to guess I'd say I'm about $7k-$8k invested now. Due to costs rather than go grid I have my AC (downstairs only), fan, TV, computer, fridge, and charging my Bolt EV electric car running off the inverter. I set my car to charge 7AM to 7PM to avoid taxing the batteries, and let the solar take most the daytime load from these devices. That leaves the stove (not used a lot), microwave, and LED lights running off grid. In a power outage, I can swap some lights, and the microwave over with an extension cord. At night I use about 4-6 kWh of battery. That charges pretty quickly even on most cloudy days. If not the battery covers pretty well 2-3 days, and I can fall back on the grid if needed (very very rare). I did it this way several years ago due to cost. My next plan is to buy a EG4 18k PV when I can afford one. This will power the whole house with solar, and fall back to grid only when needed for max money saved. One step at a time with my limited retirement income! ;)
@@LDSreliance I would politely disagree. The quoted 30K array at $100k dollars vs arround $20k to $30k to build in today's market. At 25 cents per watt or less in Europe. It actually makes sense when building to over provision your solar panels. That's why I went with such a large array. I wanted to run AC, and the car on cloudy days. Many of your points are indeed correct. But in the context your price at $100k overprovisioning does not make sense. But now put today's prices on panels it absolutely does make sense unless your property is so tiny you don't have the room.
I am always surprised that often these solar systems are bolted on roofs with shingles. Its a hige painin the butt to remove your system to allow the roofers to replace the shingles. Go with steel roofs folks. So much longer lasting and better for the environment.
Your last sentence is open for debate, but I agree with the rest. It is often written into the contract a price to remove the panels for roof replacement or maintenance. But it is not cheap and your panels SHOULD outlast a shingle roof so it is definitely something you need to be prepared to pay for if you plan to own the home a long time.
Going to try an EG4 12k hybrid mini split ($1300) and replace the need to use (without removing) the gas central heat/cool for a 2000 sqft house. Just starting with one unit to test out and a bunch of panels (400W bifacial @ $120/ea). Not going to tie into the grid for net metering. Ground mounting panels. No batteries to start. Solar (3-4 panels) direct to unit in the day / 110V grid to unit at night. If it works well, I'll try an alibaba 12k hybrid mini split unit for $400/ea in use with my extra solar panels, but it will take 2 months to ship, and quality unknown. We'll see. Getting freight this week. 748 lbs... yikes. each panel is 57 lbs.
I have been off grid for 3 years now. With only 6kw solar and 25kw battery. But it seems to run a 1200 sqft home just fine. But I did build to the house myself and designed it to be energy efficient. The cloths dryer,stove and on demand water heater use propane. The first year will suck. Basically because you will be constantly checking everything before you learn to trust your system. But in these 3 years. Everyone I know has spent at a minimum 24 hours without power. And the only time mine is out is when I turn it off to make an upgrade. I love being off grid but once you take control of your energy needs. You will see the energy grid as a marvel of engineering and appreciate how little people actually have to pay for power.
That is awesome! Yes, it can be done. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Once you learn how to live off grid ie do laundry during peak sun and don’t leave lights on and such you can live on a relatively smaller system than when you started out.
So is there a conversion rate of how much kw of battery needed per 100 sq ft of home ? And can it be done without lithium batteries? I still don't like the fire risk of lithium still, and Lead acid seem pretty good still. thanks.
@@noahriding5780There is no fire risk with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. The ones that catch fire are LCO or another sub chemistry of Lithium Ion. Almost all deep cycle lithium batteries built for RV's, golf carts, bass boats, and solar are LFP so they are safe.
Stay as far away from rules of thumb as you can get. They are so vague and general that they are not accurate for anyone's case and can get you in big trouble on a large investment like that.
@@noahriding5780 not really per 100 square feet but rather average out your electric bill. I wouldn’t fear the new LiPo batteries, the newer batteries are really safe especially compared to the older chemistries and the BMS’s have truly gotten smart. I use the signature solar 48v batteries along with their inverters and the newer ones have really good monitoring systems for hot and cold. When it comes to how many it depends on how many days of backup you would like to have. Average your daily KWh usage for summer and winter and multiply by the number of days backup you feel safe with and add 20%. The 20% is so you never drain your batteries to 0. This is how I figured my battery needs and I’m sure others do it differently, the system I have today is my second large off grid system and the cost of it compared to my first along with the ease of installation was night and day.
One of the very few honest reviews of how solar works when applied to reality.
Thanks! I really appreciate that.
except its not because you're not throwing the panel away after 1 day...
I live remote rural off grid here down under, 24V with four 140amp batteries, lighting is LED strip lighting , fridge freezer ect is soft start with inbuilt inverters, I stay away from high draw things that need to be plugged in via the inverter. I run a 4 bedroom house sheds and a workshop , the workshop if I am running high draw tools necessitates running my backup generator at times, though not often. Works for off grid but running a suburban house with flick the switch appliances and AMP hungry appliances requires a much larger and more complex hence more expensive system. Its about knowing your power usage keeping on top of your system , I sometimes watch these videos, this being one of the best I have seen of late and wonder about the efficiency, practicality and usage of roof top solar in the cities. In the cities the mind set is flick the switch, leave everything on standby and people wonder about the amount of electricity they are used to using and the shear wastage a suburban house produces. All my lighting is LED and I also have the house wired for 240V from the inverter, works for us. New sub here, had a thought I added add a small wind turbine as it acts like a battery trickle charger overnight and keep your batteries topped up it extends their life by years. Good luck with your off grid its more than worth it and the added bonus is you escape the cities, many more people are doing it as there are so many more jobs now where you can work from home. Its put the real estate prices in country towns and off grid locations through the roof here in Australia, glad I got in ten years ago.
You have convinced me to just be off grid...period. Annnnd... stay away from our refrigerator at night...LOL!
Haha. Just trying to give some people a dose of reality. I hope it helps you do things the right way from the beginning, regardless of what you choose. It can be done but it takes knowledge and no guessing.
@@LDSreliance And in my case a steep learning curve in the building and set up :)
I had an electrician seperate my power boxes in my garage, I now have 2 power panels, 1 is the 220volt system and 110 in the other. I can constantly cover the 110 with my system.
@@derek361 I run a separate battery bank for 12V LED lighting in the house and workshop and 240 from the 24V bank through an inverter works for me.
Move. One for one “Net Metering” does exist. Grid tied systems have the electrical system as its battery. Over generate when it’s sunny, draw down your credited surplus when it is less so. Consumers need a lobby, because net metering is good for everyone in a relative way.
At least right now solar panel prices are super low. Buy while it's low, who knows how long these prices will be sticking around. I just bought three brand new bifacial Talesun 400w panels for $450
Wow! That is pretty good. Yes, the panels are getting cheaper. But the net metering deals and some of the other stuff is getting worse. Some utilities charge a fee per month just to take your power of as much as $25 per month. You would need to generate 416.67 kWh per month just to pay off the monthly fee with the example scenario in the video, let alone start to generate any offset of your usage!
#goJason
I don't understand why off grid stuff is so expensive in the USA, in South Africa I just bought 20 x 550W panels for 1771 Rand each, which is ~93.21 USD a panel. I have seen multiple videos on youtube, and for an installed system you seem to be paying double or triple what we pay.
yeah US seems to have crazy prices with Solar. Maybe its the subsidies or trade war but 100 a panel and 150-200 per kwh of battery can be found by shopping around in europe.
Air condition is easy to run on solar cause it's usually sunny when you need it the most. It's much harder to heat with solar.
That is accurate for part of the day, sure. What about the rest?
And heating take more energy.
in Texas summer, you need AC 24/7
We have a 16kw ground mounted grid tied system and live in the Hudson Valley. New York has net metering meaning kwh for kwh. In essence the grid is our kwh bank account. In the Spring, Summer, and early Fall we are making deposits to the kwh account. In Winter and at night we are wwithdrawing from the account. The net result for the year is we use about 200 khw more than the total solar production resulting in a savings of about $4500 plus.
For now. But you pay a CBC charge ($0.33-1.33 per kW of your array per month so $5.28-$21.28 per month or $63.36-$255.36 per year) for the privilege and it is going to get worse soon.
They are pushing the VDER plan hard and will follow the rest of the country rapidly. The PSC chose to avoid a black eye like California has with their Net Metering 3.0 debacle by allowing the utilities to ease customers into the VDER. But it will be required within a few years. And then you will receive 1/3 of retail rates or less per kWh just like the rest of the country.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
@@LDSreliance All I need is three more years! California grandfathered in those who already had solar before the law went into effect. So they still have net metering and I suspect NY will do the same.
Maybe. Time will tell. But NEM 2.0, which is the one they are grandfathering in California, was not 1:1 net metering. It had time of use rates, high interconnection fees, other mandatory fees, and they did not pay the same rate for cogenerated power as they charged you for their power.
@@LDSreliance Under NEM 2.0, net metering policies have a one-to-one offset, meaning the price of a kWh supplied to the grid is equal to the price of pulling a kWh off the grid. NEM 3.0 will change this price ratio.
Under NEM 2.0 customers can elect a rate schedule as long as it was time-of-use (TOU). NEM 3.0 will require customers to be on one specific TOU schedule that is determined by their energy provider, making NEM 3.0 more restrictive and limiting to customer choice.
That may be what California said but it isn't accurate. The NEM 2.0 credit rate was locked in at 7.6 cents per kWh. But your actual retail rate you purchase the power was all over the map, but minimum rate regardless of TOU was 14 cents per kWh.
It was sold as 1:1 but it was anything but. They did all kinds of creative math and shell games to hide the fact but it was well documented from consumers and solar sites alike that it was not really 1:1.
I have a 6kw solar system in Pakistan.Basically i am able to run almost everything from 9am till 5pm ( 600 units/kwh per month ) and charge my lifepo4 battery ( 5kw ) which further extends my usage uptill midnight ( only basic load , fridge , led bulbs etc. ). Microwave is something which needs to taken under consideration since it has massive impact on total usage.
Yes, that is true. Thankfully we usually only use a microwave for a minute or two. Thanks for commenting and sounds like you have a good system!
Buy a low wattage microwave.
But wouldnt that double the time to heat something up since now its output is halved ?@@crazysquirrel9425
@@crazysquirrel9425better yet don't use a microwave. It kills the little nutrition in the food. Plus the only thing you really miss out on is microwave popcorn but there are other ways to make popcorn and they are generally cheaper.
@@crazysquirrel9425 Takes longer to cook. Sheesh,........
General rule of thumb when it comes to solar: It's cheaper to reduce than to produce.
There's two forms of grid-tied solar: Net Metering kWh for kWh (starting to be less common) or Feed-in Tariff (basically sell wholesale and purchase retail). I'm glad that I am on the kWh for kWh program which gives me the ability to be net zero for many years. It took me about 2 years of logging my consumption data and with that data, I was able to make my home more efficient to make solar to work for me.
Here's some data I have from my central 2.5 ton (30,000 Btu) heat pump from Jan to Dec 2023 with thermostat set at 79° F cooling and 70° F heating in West Central Florida. My total energy usage is 2,907 kWh (2.907 Mwh) for the entire year or roughly 7.96 kWh per day. Note that my auxiliary 5 kW electric backup heat strips is disabled since it rarely goes below 40° F on the coldest of evenings. HVAC is the most difficult to calculate depending the thermal loading characteristics of each home is quite different; plus I keep my thermostat on the higher than average side during the summer since I am able to maintain below 45% humidity at those settings.
Agreed. A LOT cheaper to reduce. But, like I said in the video, almost no homeowners are signing up for a $50,000 loan on some panels AND getting excited about turning their thermostat up to 80 or opening the windows instead. It just doesn't happen.
Holy smokes how did you get your yearly usage to only 3kWh? I used close to that last month! Making FPL work for their earnings I love it.
No net metering, period. Use what you produce and store rest in battery. Run down battery when no sun and buy rest from utility company. 100% off grid makes no sense, only if there is no grid available since one has no choice.
We still pay $70 a month from grid even if we use no electricity at all. Just connection fee. That’s $16,800 in 20 years to stay connected to grid when in off grid. only need grid power for 2-3 months of the year. A generator can run for 1-3 hours consuming as little as $5 in fuel to charge batteries to 100% and provide a days worth of power or more on cloudy days. Full off grid does make sense given the circumstances
Then when you factor in power surges coming from grid that fry electronics (happened to us and neighbors) it adds more cost. Power outages from grid in days or up to a week at a time we have had makes us need a generator anyways. So that cost is a write off…
I agree with @bestgreenhomestead here. Off grid makes total sense in a lot of scenarios. The relationship between homeowner and utility gets more and more one sided when it comes to pricing and also solar. They hold all the cards. And what do you get when they fail to provide you the service they are supposed to provide, such as in the winter of 2021 in Texas?? You get 200+ deaths and exorbitant power bills for what little power you were able to consume.
disagree for my state it would be cheaper to be off grid and just use a gas generator to charge the battery bank
"...only if there is no grid and you have no choice". Well, I suppose it does make sense, in that case. 😅
Wow. Hey this is a really good and needed topic. Most people don't talk about this. Thanks.
You are welcome! I agree, I think everyone considering solar needs to see it. Thanks for watching!
A great dose of reality for anyone thinking about dipping their toes in the solar arena. I'm in the process of learning, building a small system to run 6 circuits on a transfer switch. I have a whole house generator if we loose power for an extended time but you don't want to run that at night. I just wanted enough to run my refrigerators and freezer, some lights in the bath etc. So I have no pressure to power everything, it's more of a hobby for me. But this is a great video for those thinking of going all in, to know the limitations and have realistic expectations.
Thanks! I appreciate the support. Good luck with your project and check out the other 100+ solar videos I have on my channel.
Thank you for the honesty. I realized this as well, when I was planning to upgrade to achieve zero bill, but decided not to and instead just run my old solar set-up on all the convenience outlet, let the Air-conditioner feed off from the utility. The original plan was to have the Air-conditioner feed from Solar and batteries, but that is too expensive.
It really is out of reach for almost all of us. Hopefully we can change the narrative over time to "solar is a great 10 year investment by helping you decrease your power bill" instead of the current promises and instant gratification being given.
NEVER agree to a 30 year lease or any lease also. If you can't pay it cash then don't go with it.
Your system costs are off. 16 460w bifacial panels, 13 k inverter, 30 kwh battery bank. $ 24 k . Did it myself. No electrical backround. Watched hours of youtube.
You are in the 1% of homeowners then. Maybe 0.1%. Go look up the averages, yourself. It is still almost $3/W installed for solar in the US.
I did things similar to you, but I didn't tie into grid because my utility scams solar customers. Got 24 panels, 24kwh worth of batteries, 2 inverters. Run my kitchen & living room off grid. Freezer is an energy hog. I need to cut down 1 tall tree right next to 1 bank of panels & that will give me about 4 more hours @ 2kw, then I can add in coverage for more of the house. I now realize I'm going to need a dedicated bank just for the laundry room & A/C, since we never run both at the same time.
So the materials cost me $18k so far. I have a solar tracker base I need to install to boost output for my ground mounted panels. Supposedly will boost output 40%. We'll see. My utility company has noticed my usage drop & are coming over to "inspect." Nothing they can do. Not grid-tied. But I have a feeling they're going to raise a stink.
Metoo
Have 1 to 1 net metering in Florida, and it's great, the utility acts as the battery. With 5.8h/d of average peak irradiance it's been working quite well. Couple things I have learned, wire gauge drives line loss, advocate for larger gauge wire for long runs, build bigger then you need because you can always use more energy not the other way around, and do your research on equipment and installer.
You are very lucky. Most don't have anything close any more.
What you highlighted is an excellent reason to include energy storage (batteries) when designing your solar system. Instead of sending the excess energy to the grid, put it into batteries so you can withdrawal it when your solar panels aren't producing. In your example, instead of paying $0.25/kWh you would be paying $0.06/kWh since the that kWh will be locally consumed before ever making to the grid. Solar+batteries have dropped in price considerably over the last year.
Equally important is selecting the right appliances and systems to reduce your electrical usage as well as making your home energy efficient. The latter will be a much better use of your money than upsizing your solar system.
When I replaced the cheap aluminum clad builder-grade windows and glass doors this winter with much more energy efficient ones, the energy used for heating dropped by 70%. Yes, it was expensive. Then I turned the attic space in conditioned space (the indoor air handler is located there) by adding a few inches of closed cell spray foam to the attic's roof. Yes, more money. Energy usage for heating dropped again. I also swapped out the 20+ year old 3 ton furnace & A/C for a new cold climate 2.5 ton inverter heat pump (no resistive elements) and the 20 year old gas water heater for an electric 15kW tankless unit rendering my 1300 sqft home all electric. Together those upgrades add up to a little more than the solar+battery system I am getting.
I live in AZ and this summer the super efficient heat pump typically draws less than 1kW to cool my place to 77. A 20 minute shower costs also uses about a kWh and costs a dime. My baseline power draw (lights, stuff, fridge) is about 120W or about 3 kWh / day. On hot summer or cold winter days, this rises to about 15 kWh. In spring and fall when the heat pump is off, I average about 4.5 kWh / day. This summer my electric bill is averaging about $60.
Adding solar to my place makes no financial sense with a pay back period of nearly 20 years for a 8.8 kW-dc system with 27 kWh of battery storage and 22 kVA power draw. Regardless, I'm having it installed anyways. It's oversized so I shouldn't need to draw power from the grid even in December or January.
Great video, most people don't realize this until they get a quote or start using their system. I am going to get a small system that is enough to charge the basics and cover lighting in a down grid event. Eventually, I would like to scale up to handle a refrigerator.
Thanks! I appreciate that. Yeah, hopefully I can help a few people understand this BEFORE they sign on the dotted line with that solar sales guy promising them no electric bill.
Good info. Definitely good to figure out how much power you need for the things you use one at a time, instead of trying to guess how much power everything you use needs.
I agree. And your monthly electric bill does not include half of the information needed.
I have a hybrid system and net metering system now I am enjoying my zero bill for last 5 years
Hello, I live in Ukraine and I have 7 kw solar array + 6 kwh of batteries. From May till October I have an excessive amount of energy. And I can run 2 water heaters + 3 air conditioning units just fine. Zero bill. Solar heating in cold months is obviously not an option. Yet I'm able to run the heaters from the solar power for 4-5 hours in sunny winter days. So that I can spare some wood, and not use stove in the morning.
Depends on where you live, my local utility trades 1 to 1 kw/hrs. They charge $0.10 per kw/hr for usage and give you a 1 kw/hr credit for every 1 kw/hr you generate.
If you generate more kw credits than you need to reach net zero at the end of a cycle, it rolls over to the next cycle. Credits never expire, but can not be exchanged for money.
If you cancel the service with excess credits unused, then those credits are lost.
Love this video! I consider myself an ‘EcoRealist’. Meaning I know that dirty energy still needs to be used from time to time but that doesn’t mean I can’t strive to do better and be more self reliant.
Agree! Thanks for watching and commenting!
You sound like more of a EcoHypocrite.
If you think utilty power is 'dirty', then spend the money and go totally solar.
Until then, shut up.
The biggest energy consumer for me is my gas heat in the winter! So much so that I have decided to make three different systems. One for each refrigerator I use and then one for the main part of the house. You would be surprised at how much this helps during the winter time. So I need about 1500 W in solar panels for each refrigerator. A small inverter of around 1500 W, and a charge controller that can bring in that wattage. Not to mention a 3 to 5 kW battery.
Understand that I live in the Pacific Northwest, which makes a lot of difference in the winter time!
Sounds like a sweet setup! And geography is definitely a big factor. Thanks for sharing.
First, thanks for the presentation which I believe a lot of folks need to understand. I have been planning on going solar for many years, however, I'm still in the process of minimizing my loads (it's been going on for over 10 years). At a minimum you have to target your building envelope and get your heating/cooling loads to a minimum - these are the biggest power drains. Now that I'm done with this phase (foam insulation, sealed gaps, triple and quadruple paned windows), I'm looking at ground source heat pumps with one temperature loads (this is how the brits do it and I like it - it minimizes the number of pumps required). You could also do some of the super high efficient air source heat pumps with COPs around 4 at 17KW loads (net 4.25KW/hr under load).
Rather than doing net metering, I'm planning on having 2 separate systems - 1 off grid and one grid tied. I'll slowly move my key systems off grid and leave those not as important grid tied. Now to see if my town/utility will approve this. My feeling is that I should be able to as long as I have the systems discrete - but who knows. My solar will start with 8K of panels and about 15K-25K of batteries.
Sounds like a cool system! I hope it works out well for you but it sounds like you are doing your prep work ahead of time and realistic about what you can expect once you take the plunge.
I still live off grid in the Sierra, have for 35 years. You are spot on with your analysis!
By the way, I owned Sierra electric Solar for over 20 years during this time, specializing in off grid applications as a systems designer.
Believe me, solar has greatly improved over the last 5 years, but it's still extremely expensive. I estimate I've spent over 200 thousand dollars over and above solar in generators and fuel to offset winter months.
But you know, I wouldn't have traded a anything for the freedom of not being monitored by the govt for a second.
Oh absolutely. I still advocate for almost anyone to do it. They just need to have the right mindset and expectations and know how to do it properly. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I decided it made more sense to just go off grid, get a gas generator, solar, and modify my loads then try to do net metering and pay the monthly tax to be tied to the system. Not to mention all the cost to hybrid tie in and all the permits needed to tie in. In my state it makes more sense to go off grid and just buy fuel for the cloudy stretch then oversize battery banks or go hybrid
Agreed. And it is getting more and more obvious all the time.
Some electric companies will still bill you for "maintaining the lines" regardless of your off grid or not. They suck.
Well presented, thank you!!
Thanks, Larry!
I’m a bit of a fan of an engineering project. I love my off grid setup but I use a battery charger for the night time since I only have 400ah for batteries at the moment but soon I will have a 100f ultra capacitor bank installed into the system so that when the solar is going it gets used before the batteries. The batteries will only be used when the caps fully discharge which means that it will only happen at night and a few times during the day. I plan on having 100f per battery in my setup eventually. I also try to convert to DC powered items when it makes the most sense. It makes it so less energy goes wasted. All my lights are DC the stereo/amplifier system is DC, and my TV runs on DC. Eventually my PC will too but I need to literally redesign the ATX power supply to do that. My fridge is DC and Propane powered as well. 60 pounds of propane lasts months for a fridge just fine. My phone has a DC powered plug as well. Appliances and AC seems like the only thing that you should be using AC for in my experience. The only way you can get away from this problem is if you’re willing to use Power Over PV devices. It’s less money to setup but can also risk damaging your devices that weren’t designed for use with it as the power fluctuates like crazy when using this technology. It’s great for lawn equipment though and charging your power tools, and cooking when the sun is available. Power over PV is when you use solar panels more directly for your devices without having any batteries and more often than not you use a large capacitor instead to balance the incoming load then discharge it into your device of choice. This can be used for ceramic heating as well in the winter. You won’t manage to get a commercial product however so a little DIY is necessary. All that really is required is to do the math on how much heating wire you have for the current provided from the panel. Then making a structure that makes it safe for use with fuses and switches to finish it up.
Great points! I have a DC-DC ATX PSU that I will be using, too. Every bit counts.
Crying shame people are being scammed so bad by the solar companies installing these systems on the net metering garbage if it's available. Building out these huge solar arrays with little or no storage capacity. But then on the inside of that, if you're buying batteries ready made your getting jacked up on server rack batteries. Clearly the biggest expense but most important part of a working usable system.
Mini splits are the way to go for HVAC hands down if you live where heat pumps are feasible. Way more efficient.
My whole house consumption is about 25 to 30kwh each day. I've DIY'd my own system. A trio of controllers tracking 14.4kw charging 90kwh of LFP battery banks I built myself pushing out 18kw AC to my mains. Cost is right at $20k.
People need to seriously educate themselves and have a better than vague understanding of what solar is before they ever talk to anyone about providing a system for them. Just like the HVAC industry has been jacking people for years for their ignorance, solar salesmen are circling the bloody water like a pack of sharks.
There would and could be a lot more people off the grid for power if not for the greed.
I agree. Mini splits are the way to go. But if you are building a home, passive solar and major investments in thermal efficiency are far better than anything else. Thanks for your wisdom!
I'm all about cautionary tales, and due diligence is required from everyone before they squeeze the trigger and spend time and cash.
My advice:
Define exactly what you hope to accomplish, keeping the future in mind, then don't move the goalpost.
I started out thinking how wonderful it would be to have a solar powered mini split cooling my garage for free.
That evolved into: " what how much would it cost to put in mini splits throughout my home and get off my 4 ton Heat Pump.
Then I thought: I really need backup power and started assessing my energy use throughout my home.
For me being able to run my HVAC is important. Sizing a system large enough to cover my cycling Heat Pump covers most sporadic incidental loads, but not my electric oven, or clothes dryer. I already had a soft start installed on my HVAC allowing me run it off my propane powered portable generator.
I was lucky in that I already had a standing seam metal roof on my house. If you install solar on your house you will be required to spend more money on a rapid shutdown system to protect first responders from getting shocked in that one in a billion chance that your house catches on fire.
Don't even get me started on the little tin gods inspectors office.
Solar prices have been cut in half over the last 5 years so it's within your grasp just be smart about it and plan on spending good money up front.
I’m learning a lot as I monitor my power usage in my tiny home. 12kwh was my biggest day this winter using electric heat. Looking like I will need 2-3000 watts of solar. I think my plan will be to maximize how much solar I can put on my trailer and also do an automated generator for the big use days. Im in a great spot for wind so I may as well get a decent spinner as well. Would be nice if someone could build a wood stove that can convert wood to electricity. I’m only running math so far as I also have a wood stove installed and also a diesel heater. It would be nice to not have to run those if possible but it’s looking like that might be harder than I expected. I gotta figure it out before summer as I’m definitely doing solar this year but to what extent I don’t know yet.
There are thermoelectric generators that you can attach to a wood stove and get some small amount of electricity from. Enough to charge your personal electronic devices. But I agree.
To get 12kWh in winter, though, you are going to need a heck of a lot more than 3,000W of panels. It will come down to your battery bank size and how willing you are to run your generator for several hours to charge up your battery bank.
…I have solar, and, am hooked to the grid… the grid doesn’t pay me… the grid, stores my excess power… this winter, is my first yr, of 50 yrs of adulthood, that my cost for air conditioning, and winter heat, has been simply the service charge of the grid connection. ($17.00),
The grid stores my excess power perpetually…it’s banking my power..
Please stay objective and stick to the truth… there are many places where electric power is cheap and then you are partially right, but there are plenty of places where the costs are high…. If you have the money to buy a diesel guzzler RV you have the money to buy 2 x 450Wp Solarpanels which will set you back some about US Pesos 300.00. The actual costs of a solar systems are with the storage Batteries
I did. What was untrue in the video? The problem has nothing to do with the cost of electricity. It has to do with how much money you get from selling your electricity back to the electric utility. And for the overwhelming majority (and soon to be all of us), the utility will not pay us the same rate for our power as we pay them for theirs. So that creates a major problem for those who are trying to have a low or zero electric bill, as outlined in the video.
900W of solar power on an RV will not change anything, either. You cannot run your air conditioner for any meaningful length of time with that and, depending on what loads you run, you may have to make sacrifices with devices you would normally run overnight.
This is good information. Real world also need to account for loss through wiring.
Unless you can install an oversize system (which is restricted to your avg yearly home consumption in Canada), the most effective solution is to reduce consumption and insulate/increase home efficiency. Windows and large sliding doors, no matter what they tell you about 4 pane superglazed mass mayhem argon tetrahydric eco-powered bamboo friendly glass - ARE absolutely a terrible terrible insulator, both in warm and cold climates. If you cant get rid of windows, shade them inside AND outside to help your Air conditioner. IF you can really afford it, Batteries are an option, but their installation and additional components are quite expensive as of 2024.
Stay gold
expectations are what is a solar killer. People don't seem to understand how having a solar system that connects to the grid works and also the maintenance that is required for the system, that is what kills the idea, not to mention the shady crap some solar sales and installers do just to get a buck.
Agreed.
First Sound Advice good example love the video.
Thanks! I appreciate it.
thanks for the eye opener. Here in Montreal, they dont give much back for net metering. I would rather instal a battery bank since the pricing is comping down. I would like a system just off set my grid tie monthy $$. I know it would take many years to break even but its simply a DIY and a hobby.
If you are getting some enjoyment and satisfaction and independence from doing it then I'd say go for it. Don't worry as much about the payback period. But I think you will find that if you choose the right components and avoid garbage Grade B lithium batteries then you will have a long term asset that will pay dividends for a while.
We (our HOA) bought a 20.9 kW system about 8 years ago for EUR 34k (~US$37k). The 30 kW system nowadays should cost less than US$ 50k. If you want to cover your own consumption, then you could go for an east-west configuration as it covers more of your own energy consumption. One mistake in the video is that you do not need a lot of sunlight to get enough power to run an airconditioning. In summer you can produce at least some power from ~6 in the morning until 6 in the evening. Say you need 1 kW, then you only need to produce 1/30th of your maximum output if you have a 30 kW system.
But the video is right that going for a zero power bill isn't worth it. Just get panels that produce about what you use currently, and you should roughly cut your electric bill in half. E.g. you use 5,000 kWh/yr, get panels that can produce about that. Roughly that's 5 kWp, depending on where you live.
In my new house in the Philippines there is no feed-in tariff. I'm thinking about getting a battery and just 1 or 2 kWp of solar and use the aircon mostly when the sun is shining. I have no aircon right now, but when I buy it, that will make it worth it to buy solar. I should get 1.4 kWh/yr per Wp here. I use less than 1,000 kWh/yr without aircon, so solar isn't worth it yet. The battery is mostly because we get too many blackouts here.
I'm waiting for a portable SMR to be developed, until then I'll be working on my solar system.
I live in Alberta Canada. We have retailers that buy and sell us power at Solar Club rates. Spring, Summer and Fall we switch to a high rate of 30 cents a kWh. We buy it at that rate and we sell it at that rate. Earning credits bills for nine months of the year. Then in winter we switch back to the lower normal rate of 10 cents a kWh. My system is 9000 watts of grid tie facing South, East and West. I pay nothing for power and the left over credits cover about 80% of my gas heating.
Solar panels and batteries to store the energy is very expensive. The mindset you need to have is that solar is "helping" you save on your energy bill in the LOOOONG RUN. It is like putting pocket change in a can everyday when you come home. In a few years there are a few hundred debased dollars that you can buy one good night out dinner! LOL!! Great video!
Correct. It is a long term investment but still needs to be done right. Solar panel companies do not have your best interest in mind sometimes. And you'll never get a performance guarantee from them in writing. So educate yourself, get a modest system that will achieve a strong 10-14 year ROI, and then be patient.
That's absolutely incorrect. I paid less than $10,000 for all of my gear and it meets about 90% of my annual need and my payback is a little under four years. I can also turn off my grid power and go for weeks on my solar and batteries. Although I do have a small house and I live in a very temperate climate.
I have no intention of going off grid. My plan is to generate enough solar to pay for itself and the battery backup in ten years with energy savings. The grid is now my backup to solar for charging the batteries only on cloudy days. In the chance of a grid down event and no sunlight days I can completely charge my battery bank for the next 24 hours in just a few hours with either of my tri-fuel generators. Luckily I live in the north and central air is a convienience not a requirement tho I can run it on one of my generators if needed. My power requirements are low since natural gas supplies heat, hot water, cooking, clothes drying and runs the generators.
Good luck. That is a moving target and you have no say in the terms of the deal (net metering).
I live off grid in Australia the land down under have a north aspect (Southern hemisphere) and built up my system over the years from 12v to 24v then reconfigured for 48v. About 3kw of solar with a 5kva inverter wired to the house at 240v and storage of 9.6kw Lifepo4 batteries ( I will upgrade adding another battery to 13.8 kw which for me will be ideal, these Lifep04 batteries are the greatest and ideal for solar). I still have two of my original solar panel the are 30 yrs old and still provide useable power. Solar is so cheap now compared to 20 years ago and there are a lot of low energy appliances these days. I live reasonable comfortably using low power everything from LED TVs, lights, lots of ceiling fans a 7 kw split system air con heater and heat pump hot water. Ceiling fans are the best low power option for summer and great for circulating heat over winter. I also charge my plug in hybrid car. Over summer I have plenty of energy but over winter I need to monitor my usage. I mainly use wood heating over winter which I collect from my small hobby farm. It's a low voltage system from the roof and do it yourself system which was added to over time when I had the money. The whole system to date has cost less than $20,000.
That is great to hear! There have been several Aussies comment on this video in similar situations as you. The common thread is always what I described in the video for many of us mindless Americans... you cannot switch to solar power and expect no bill or a low bill unless you change some of your habits and lifestyle. Like you mentioned, you are using all low power appliances and devices. Lots of fans instead of blasting air conditioning all day. Thanks for sharing!
One thing I'm planning to do in my next house (this one has way too small of a yard) is geothermal air conditioning. With a big enough area (and it doesn't really take all that much), you can pretty much eliminate all "heating" and "cooling" by digging down, usually only around 10', and pumping air (or, better yet, anti-freeze) through coils and up through a radiator. The only cost at that point is the pump for the air (or anti-freeze) and blowers to circulate the conditioned air through your house. I live in the Pacific NW with a pretty moderate climate, so there isn't that much of a tax on the system. Even if I need a little bit of heat in the winter, it's still substantially cheaper than having to run heat and AC throughout the year, or even for 1/2 the year.
I'd love to do that. I've read quite a bit about it but have only seen one house that has it anywhere near me.
@@LDSreliance -- Yeah, I hear ya. I don't know of anyone personally who moved over to it, but it sure seems like a fantastic idea.
Good job sir, thanks to the information
I understand your point. But I disagree with your ideology. My 7.9 Kw system averages about 1300 Kwh per month. I am grid tied in SW Georgia. I have two EVs and a heat pump. While my neighbors pay about $180 per month. My bill averages around $70 per month. I do admit that this is not a zero bill. The savings more than justify the cost of installation. And if my inverter fails. I can still rely on the grid.
Your data proves my point. 1300kWh per month is 43.33kWh per day, which is far higher than the national average consumption in the United States per household according to the Department of Energy (www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3). So the fact that you are producing that much power (which is phenomenal output for an 8kW system, by the way) and still have an $80 bill each month just further proves how awful net metering is.
Also, you are saving $110 per month compared to your neighbors. An average 7.9kWh system in the US would cost around $22,000 installed. So in your case, that will take you 16.67 years to pay itself back. That is a below average ROI on a solar panel system for a solar friendly state like Georgia. Most systems that I design for people have a payback period of around 12-14 years.
Your investment is still sound but do you think that your cogeneration relationship with the utility will stay the same for the next 17 years until you start making free power? Not a chance. Your electricity price will continue to rise and the price they pay you for the power you make will continue to drop. In fact, there are some places where utilities are already refusing to buy any power from their customers.
@@LDSreliance I agree. I never expected to have a $0. electric bill. You are also correct in most of your math. I just don't believe most buyers expect a $0. elec bill. And yes, the electric company has changed their rate by 40% and pay me 60% less than originally agreed to. When it gets more unreasonable I will invest in battery backup. Which gets cheaper each year. Giving me a lower electric bill and emergency power during blackouts. Fortunately for me. I got a 30% tax credit on my system. So it cost me around $16,000 and I paid cash so there is no actual interest.
I think we are on the same page. I just never expected something for nothing. I always take the long view on my investments. Otherwise, everyone would have solar by now.
I think you are more reasonable than most of the homeowners that I have talked to and assisted over the years. I did a few videos on this a year or two ago but all of the Facebook ads for solar are almost all highly misleading and some are just downright lying to you. And the door to door solar sales guys are also almost all using the "no or low power bill" hook to get people to invest. I see stories on the local news (when i am forced to watch it in a waiting room or something) that feature some poor homeowner that got taken for $80k in solar and still has a $200 electric bill. It is crazy.
In Ontario Canada i'am on the ultra low rate program for home charging, only use super charges
Heating water is by far the most expensive in terms of energy use. Heating the hot tub and pool is very expensive. I turned on my little portable water heater that boils water for my French press, watching it through the enphase app, it jumps to 6kWh use.
If your French press is using 6,000W you need to throw it away, my friend. Even a large electric water heater for an entire house, like I have, is only about 5,000W. And that is a dual heating element unit that is heating 80 gallons.
@@LDSrelianceWell think about it, its designed to bring a small amount of water to 212 degrees F in a very short period of time, it is maybe on for 2 minutes max vs a water heater which is designed to heat a larger volume of water up to what 105-110? My point is that heating water is one of the most costly things you can do energy wise.
That is the key, though. Small amount of water. A coffee maker uses a max of 1200W.
I agree that any sort of electric heating is bad. It doesn't have to be heating for HVAC. Electric clothes dryers, hair dryers, air fryers, toaster ovens, microwaves, hot water heaters, and even curling irons all use lots of power. But most people underestimate just how much it hurts, especially if you use it outside of peak sun hours after going solar.
@@LDSrelianceRecently caught a video on heatpump hybrid water heaters which are pretty efficient to start with. But in the south many of the water heaters are in the garage, which kills two birds with one stone, you have the exhaust being really cool air which cools the garage, and the higher efficiency of the heatpump. Great efficiency and use the waste, that's pretty hard to beat.
Very nicely explained thank you so much.❤❤
You are welcome! Thanks for watching.
You convinced em. I dont want solar. If I want power when the sun is not shining I would need thousands of dollars worth of batteries and that would be bad. I got an estimate for solar for my home and it was 75,000.00 dollars. I don't think so.
Don't give up on solar. Just educate yourself until you know how to use it properly and then you can go to the solar companies and tell them what you want instead of them selling you what they want you to have.
I’m glad in Maine I store my kilowatts in the grid and use them when I need them.
How do you store your kWh in the grid?
@@LDSreliance they measure how many go in and bank them until I use them.
If you are lucky to have a 1:1 net metering relationship then count your blessings. It won't last much longer.
yes mate this sounds honest, solar is not made to run a house but if you do
and yes you can it have a cost.
Thanks for sharing my friend.
You are welcome, Mark. Good to hear from you, as always.
Nice solar cell
Move. One for one “Net Metering” does exist. Grid tied systems have the electrical system as its battery. Over generate when it’s sunny, draw down your credited surplus when it is less so. Consumers need a lobby, because net metering is good for everyone in a relative way.
Your answer is to move? To the 10% of the country that still has 1:1 net metering? (And not for long)
@@LDSreliance grand dad can be your friend of last resort.Do not tarry to long
They don't honor grandfathered agreements. There is not a single IOU in the country that still does 1:1 net metering. The only places you can still find it are small, independent coops and rural electric districts. There are a handful of IOU's that still have semi-favorable net metering terms but all of those are in talks and have plans to continue to move along the trend that California and other states have set that are decidedly NOT in favor of the homeowner/cogenerator.
On the Off grid system The AC to DC conversions while moving power to and from the battery take a huge chunk off of the profits as well. A complete DC solar system could avoid it, but I think is harder to implement without proper knowledge.
That is true, but even with the losses inherent with batteries they are still superior than selling power back to the utility for pennies. And they also give you the ability to use power when the grid is down, which is a large incentive in going solar, in my opinion.
Greetings: All true. I reali*e this is not about types of installations panels, cells Etc. U 4got 2 tell them about different panels 4 different climates, Good show. Thx 4 the share.
Simple solution for just about everything I run a 120v hot water heater and everything else is no concern running off solar and battery.
3 things, dirt, poor weather, night time. But there is always that early morning and late afternoon thing that doesn't help much ether, but it's just great during those few mid day hours, it's quite a charge...
Or you can do what I do and chuck all that energy into batteries and then the batteries discharge to my household loads all night long. $12,000 out-of-pocket with a 30% tax credit and an ROI of less than four years.
1:00 The solar panel operates the roof fan during the day. It stores energy in the battery to run the fan during the night. But America is quite windy. We can reduce the load of the solar panel by using a wind turbine.
I agree in principle. But show me a wind turbine with any meaningful production that you can use mounted to the roof of an RV. I've been looking for something like that for 12 years. There aren't any, unfortunately.
@@LDSreliance There are +5kW wind turbines on the market. Wind turbines must be at a certain height to work. It would be difficult to install the +165kg wind turbine on the roof of the caravan. Dismantling the turbine while leaving will again be extremely troublesome. That's why special wind turbines need to be developed for caravans. For example, the energy produced in the turbine can be transferred to the electric motor through gears and shafts. In this way, we can place the electric motor on the floor of the caravan. When necessary, we can turn the vertical shaft into a horizontal position with the help of a simple mechanism (Mechanical engineers can easily handle this). We can even do this automatically with an electric linear actuator. You can even make good money from this. Here's an idea.
I agree. I keep seeing promising technology, such as new VAWT designs, but they never come to market. Even some ultra small ones that are portable and designed for tent camping and hiking. You can see stuff like that on Kickstarter all the time but never commercially available. It is very frustrating.
The success is for me very simple: break-even was after 8 years, and currently (6 year later) still up-and-running. 🤣
Sounds awesome! Glad you had success.
story time I have 3 24 v small systems 1 on 2 freezers and entertainment another on refrigerator and a bigger 6000w 24v that runs the house the first two systems run 24 7 I spent 13000 for all plus panels 3 years in no problems knock on wood like your video my last p g e bill was 65 dollars compared to 375
Sounds awesome! Nice job.
For me if I can run my Aircon in summer and not worry about my the extra bill then I am happy.
You wouldn't' believe the load analysis's i receive from clients. It's like using a bicycle to reach mars.
Oh I definitely believe it. I see it, too.
Good video and very interesting. Would having thicker walls and roof help reduce how much electricity would be used to heat and cool a home over time?
Yes. If you were building a new home and planned to go solar from the beginning, you could improve the efficiency and insulation of your home greatly, which would decrease the need for air conditioning and heating and pay off in the long run.
@@LDSreliance That is very good too know. It would be cool if you could to a little test setup and show the difference. If you can't due to cost I understand.
That would be very hard to do a test on. I don't have Mythbusters' budget :) But I'll think about how I could do that. I am building some buildings in the near future so I will do some videos on the topic while I build for sure, even if I can't test anything quantitatively.
Awsome presentation 👌 Thank you sir.
You are welcome! Thanks for watching and commenting :)
I think you missed variable in your calculation (grid tied example - ceiling fan) - you are not accounting for the $0.25 electricity that I DO NOT have to buy during the daytime. All the electricity that I consume (that is, before it is sold to the grid for $0.06) is saving me $0.25. So for example, if I ran my sitting room fan for 8 hours during the day - on solar - then I will have saved $0.25x8 (or what I would have spent the night before). Night time usage is not only offset by exporting, but also from NOT importing.
No, that is double counting the "savings". You get the benefit at night when you don't have to buy the electricity. If you use the electricity during the day, that is less you can use at night, which means you WILL be buying that energy at night instead.
I bought all of my equipment on the Internet and installed it myself and did not pull a permit or get an interconnection agreement with the electric utility and I operate my system in zero export mode. I did however claim the 30% tax credit and my system saves me about $2600 per year in avoided electrical costs and my payback period is about four years.
Nice! Just make sure your inverters are compatible with anti-islanding requirements. Otherwise, mission accomplished.
@@LDSreliance oh yes! Got that covered, installing off grid solar systems for 26 years now. I can't believe how much the prices have come down since I was a youngster.
Yes I am sure they have. The panels themselves are the cheap part, now.
If you pay 25 cents and get a credit of 6 cents per kW, it is not really net metering, but an unfair arrangement. In Ontario, Canada, you still get a 1:1 credit. I hope that it will remain like this. In 2023, I ha a zero electrical bill!
Utility companies don’t want your electricity in the daytime,especially since grid scale solar farms are coming on line exponentially.
It would be unreasonable to expect them to pay more than the $,04 per KWH it costs to produce it themselves. Grid. scale batteries are also coming on line which shows the way for home owners.I have 50KWH of LFP server rack batteries which you can buy from Signature Solar for $12,690 . I can’t imagine why I would want to sell power to the grid except during peak hours if they paid extra for it. The high cost and complexity of grid tie is hard to recover. Also if you buy the system from a solar company, you can’t make modifications until it is paid for.
In contrast,off grid DIY can be scaled up incrementally paying cash as you add panels,batteries,or inverter capacity.
Since battery and panel prices and technology are improving, it makes even more sense to avoid going into debt by buying a huge system when you can take advantage of improvements in price and performance.
I'm fine with that. The problem is the goalposts keep moving. At first it was 1:1. And I agree that wasn't sustainable as solar gained popularity. But now with NEM 3.0 in California, you get a couple pennies per kWh and pay $0.30+ per kWh in some places.
And I'm fine with the different rates but they don't also need connection fees (monthly fees just for the privilege of being connected to their system) and large up front fees when you are doing the install.
I just want to highlight to people that the days of net zero energy bills are over.
*You need at least a football field's worth of solar panels just to have the power you need.*
Remember, many days are cloudy. Winter time has less sunshine.
And then there is snow....
Remember, you have a lot of losses due to electronics to run the system.
And battery inefficiency/lifespan comes to mind too.
Fun fact: did you know they make a hand crank laptop?
Here's a plan that's working. And one needs to take in account that night power after 8pm until 7am is off peak. So you use and produce solar during peak. Tune heating and air to gain ground during peak and only slowly maintain losing ground over night. Use a heat pump for this. 40% more efficient than trad heat and ac. Get 4kwh of battery to cover spike loads day and night, aka microwave. Bath or shower... 30KWH system in MN is about 80k. But a 11kwh system is 40k.
That could work. If your house was very well insulated and efficient it would take many hours for the temperature to drop or raise to an uncomfortable level. But that is exactly my point in the video. You can't run your AC and electric heat the same way you did when you were paying the power company for grid power. You have to make concessions or alterations or investments or change in habits in order to make it work. And most people aren't willing to do that.
Been scratching my head wondering why more arent building offgrid - guess its just lack of knowledge. Planning on building my own 48v system with a transfer switch, no feedin. Top quality equipmemt, still cheaper than grid tie, works thru a blackout.
I agree. Use a transfer switch to go back to grid power if you need it.
Ultimately, the powers that be do not want you self sufficient in any way.
If lots of people were to go off grid and become truly self sufficient, the gubment would tax their production and put other regulations on them.
...and it would all be "for your own good".
I know. But until they figure out how to control/tax/regulate off grid living, I'm going to enjoy it.
I pay around 15dlls a month after I changed
to led lights upgraded tv and washer , fire stick instead of a PC,solar makes no sense for me but I did buy 1 solar panel and one solar generator, more for an emergency especially rainy days power goes out for a day or 2. Great video love them
I always find it so crwzy when people pay so little for pwr when ive beennused to my family paying $500 on low end to $1000 a month in summer when we have to run ac and not even full time. We suffer and wait til it hits 100° before we turn the ac on because the cost is just outrageous.
Our average is $750 a month for a 1 story 5 bed house. But 10 ppl live here.
We go through about 16kwh a month averaged throughout the year.
But also since you have a little battery and solar panel why not just have it out and collect that energy and pay maybe $10 a month or $5 a month and charge your cellphone/ other small items on that free energy?
@@vincentsgaming holly molly, my highest last year was 30bucks a month and lowest 10 bucks, I just have one ac and never really use it, usually use fans, we are only 4 people, I am in puerto Vallarta mexico now, when I was in San Diego my electric bill was higher can't remember what it was
@@vincentsgamingthat's good idea actually setting it up I got a desk where I have my xbox , PC, couple laptops the cell phones and a treadmill all hooked up to the solar generator, I'll save a couple bucks and it will pay for itself in 30 years lol I spent about 1k DLLs , save a bit while I wait for the grid down 😆.
@SlackersIndustry yeah man. Buying the panel and battery and not using it until an emergency occurs is not very cost effective. If you have it might as well use it and start payijg it off in savings quicker rather then later. How many watts is that panel you bought? Must be a lot if you plan on running all those items. And of course even if it only saves you $5-$10 a month thats extra food you can go buy yourself, or hell save it up for another panel and double your savings.
Here is a tip to help you plan your system. This works if you currently have a smart meter. My utilities smart meter allows me to view hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, and up to 2 years' worth of data. Now you know how to plan for average daily intake consumption and how much battery storage for nightly consumption. 😊
Good Information.....THANKS
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
100.000$ for a 30kw solar system, I just got an offer on a 35kw solar system for 20.000$ and that is the normal price today.
I want to live in your fantasy world.
The common sense approach to residential housing isn’t that common. Let’s say that you are building a 1600 sq. Ft. home and you were given a $40,000 dollar grant to reduce your energy consumption. You could easily spend that on solar but if you improved your building envelope and design you could eliminate 90% of your HVAC costs. Then by spending more on the most efficient appliances your electricity required to run your home would be very reasonable. If you wanted the best bang for your buck solar in this scenario there are some mini- split systems that you can power directly from 4 solar panels without the use of inverters and back them up with the grid greatly reducing your expense and if the building has the right amount of mass you might not need much additional energy to maintain reasonable comfort. The benefit of this is that even when there’s no sun your energy requirements are much less.
Amen. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this case.
At 4:00, To simplify my thought, does'nt the kwh produced simply run the meter backwards during the day and then when its off the meter runs forwards using up all the power we generated all day? You seem to be implying I have to produce 4 times more power during peak hours to offset the nightime use, (only spinning the meter backwards at .06 kwh while spinning it forward at .25 kwh under all circumstances). This seems innacurate but I certainly see where the power company would do that. If you are correct, then the best we could hope for is a system sized to perfectly keep the meter from spinning forward during peak hours, and certainly not one that runs the meter backwards at all, correct? Sorry for the confusing manner of my question, I am still trying to figure out how to ask it. Is there any way to just get credited one for one per kwh, or is it .06 no matter what, meaning we would really need an expensive battery bank to get full use out of not running the meter forward? Hmmm, does a kwh IN always equal .06 and a kwh OUT always equal .25 in your scenerio, or does the first hour out in the evening come from the hours I put into the grid during the daylight?
No, that is not how it works in the majority of the country. What you are describing is 1:1 net metering. In other words, 1 input from you = 1 output from them. That is no longer the case. Utilities are paying 1/2 or less (sometimes as low as 1/12) for your power as they charge you for theirs.
It is true what you say. But you should deduct the energy you produce when the sun is out. I mean, if you get 6 hours of sun your panels will provide all the energy you need for the 6 hours. And you pay for the 2,5 hours left
Also, energy in the us is extremly cheap.
You are not pointing out "killers" of solar. These are just typical loads that use electricity. Of course you need larger panels to run all of your loads. The more power you can produce is less you have to buy. I have a small solar system and save $20 to $25 per month on my electric bill. It also gives me back up power during power failures.
You can call them whatever you want... gotchas, killers, hurdles, land mines, etc. People look at a tiny roof fan on an RV and dismiss it as insignificant. That is the point I am making.
Install a soft start device on your HVAC compressors and your fridge or freezer.
That helps to smooth out the huge current spike on startup, but it doesn't change the energy usage to operate.
In my van I’m fortunate to roll the windows down and park in the shade. No energy needed 🎈
Amen!
Battery storage is 10 cents per kwhr over life of system. That is less than 1/2 the cost of buying a kwhr from utility vastly reducing size of PV array needed. You don't need a weeks worth of battery for worst case situation. Use grid for multi day cloudy periods. Alt is oversize array to get substantial charge in cloudy weather, probably still cheaper than grid.
I agree with you in general. It depends on where you live on the costs from your utility, though. And your pricing on battery storage is dependent on what kind of battery you are buying (even among lithium iron phosphate there are several grades of batteries from the Amazon junk to the certified Grade A batteries with top shelf cells). But batteries very clearly are the answer to all of our grid problems.
Very informative!!! Thanks!!
You are welcome! Thanks for watching.
I have a 7kW grid-tied system (in New Zealand) , for which I've kept some fairly extensive records.
During 2023 I consumed 3940.5kWh of my generated electricity and imported 2364.7kWh from the grid. Normally this total amount of electricity (6305.17kWh) would have cost me NZ$2151.77. The billed cost of the imported electricity was $800.07, so I've already saved $1344.69 right from the start.
However, during the same period I also exported 5100.91kWh, for which I received credits of $612.11 - the price ratio between import and export is approximately 2.25 -, leaving me to pay the net cost of $194.97 for my imported electricity out of my own pocket. With that amount of potential additional savings each year I can't justify spending money on a car battery, never mind anything bigger. Currently I'm expecting an 8~9 year payback period.
My conclusion, based on actual numbers from my own system, is that you don't need a huge system to make a significant impact on your electricity costs, but you do need the right climate - in summer my system is producing usable amounts of electricity for around 11 hours each day.
Absolutely. If you are looking at it as a way to decrease your bill and generate a long term return on investment, that is the right way to approach it. Unfortunately, that isn't how it is being sold here in the US.
@@LDSreliance Ok, so if there are different expectations in the US that might explain some of the comments I've seen in the past. As far as I know, no company here sells PVs as anything other than a long-term investment where the return is in the form of significantly reduced, or even in credit, monthly power bills. It's usual here to own your setup outright.
I'd be genuinely interested in knowing what the sales pitch is in the US and where the return is expected to come from, because I can't at the moment see any other way you could view such an investment - but I'm more of an technical type person than a marketing type, so I might be missing something obvious.
Most residential rooftop systems are sold as completely eliminating your power bill OR making it small enough that the power bill plus the solar payment is less than the previous power bills were. In other words, an immediate savings. In my experience, 9 times out of 10 that is not going to happen. And I haven't seen an electricity bill that was a credit here in the states in a long, long time.
Like gas heating (and petroleum) , electricity is more expensive in the UK and where I live in the north we get less sunshine. I'm expanding my solar, I'll likely never get my money back but at equivalent of 40-50 cents per KW/h it's a matter of principle not giving my cash to the energy companies. I'm looking at sand batteries and other means to store heat but also heat pumps. I'm surprised at how much it costs per month to power a big fridge freezer buy I enjoy seeing how much I can save on electricity bills by using solar. It's pretty much night time here as I write this but I do so on a Mac with 2 large screens all powered from today's sunshine stored in huge batteries and the lighting in here as well is from my own energy source. I'm also interested in seeing if I can use solar for the production of hydrogen via electrolysis. It's all theoretical but very interesting.
The number reason is usually there is one person who pays the bill. Since said person pays the bill he is the only person who is turning off lights, TVs, and fans that the other 5 people never turn off. If the bill by law were rotated to the different members they would also be turning off said items instead of looking at him like he is cheap and crazy.
Haha touche
Thank you sir.
You are welcome. Thanks for watching!
all I would run on mine would be a 55 inch tv , radios , stereo , phone , PC but prob need a good 5kw or more and in England there is hardly any sun in the winter. even the door bell soler pannel failed to charge the camera but now its getting enough day light to do it.
Yeah, the UK would be tough. What about a small wind turbine? I am sure that would be restricted in heavily populated areas, though.
@LDSreliance yes in clacton by the sea we have lots of these
Even a small one on your roof could help in the winter when the sun isn't doing much. It would trickle charge the battery bank around the clock as long as there is a minimum wind speed (usually about 7mph).
The biggest killer for a successful solar system is the use of a cheap, high frequency, transformerless inverter charger. If you want to build a successful, off grid solar system then you'll need to invest in a heavy duty, high peak power, low frequency, transformer based inverter charger.
I think you are running that tiny fan at full blast to get 36W. I usually run my MaxxAir fan on low and it consumes maybe 1W or less.
Even tiny computer fans that are 12V DC consume much more than 1W. Usually at least 5W. But you are correct. It does vary based on speed. But that doesn't change the validity of the point I was making.
@@LDSreliance Thanks for acknowledging, but let’s measure. My MaxxAir ceiling/hatch fan (in my DIY camper van) has 10 setting. Mostly I use setting 1 with 13.3V*0.08A=1W. Sometimes I use settings 2 at 2W or setting 3 at 3.8W. Setting 10 measures 35W, but I never use that - it’s very loud. When camping in warm areas, I often keep this fan on continuously at 1 or 2W. My van has a 2500Whr LiFePO battery, so it can run a very long time. In my house, my wife keeps a 15” floor-standing fan next to our bed. It has low, medium, high and turbo settings. She runs it on low all night, every night. Even on low, it makes a lot of wind. In fact, we have to aim it carefully so she gets wind and I get very little because it would otherwise prevent me from sleeping at all. On low, it measures 41W. That is significant. It measures 50W, 62W, and 70W on medium, high, and turbo, respectively. But we only ever use low. For my computer, when it is awake and on, but not doing anything, it uses 8W. But it will go to a lower-power sleep mode after a while at only 0.8W. It’s a MacBook, or course, and they are very good on power consumption. The fan is controlled and normally at super low speed so you cannot even notice it is on. The only way to get it on fully is by doing something like rendering a video. In that extreme case, the whole computer consumes about 35W with the fans running at max speed. A desktop or more powerful notebook will consume more, but for a shorter duration to render the video. BTW, I am a fan of yours and a long-time subscriber. I only bring this up because I think your video may worry/scare people about their loads. AC and heating do take a lot of power. But LED lighting, audio (music), and fans are usually not much power. Refrigeration isn’t too bad, either, because they are usually well insulated. 75W for a fan is huge and running full blast in turbo mode. Think of an incandescent light bulb at 75W. You can’t touch it; it’ll burn your fingers. (Of interest, incandescent light bulbs are very efficient in winter if you want light and heat at the same time.) Anyway, have a nice rest of day!
I am not trying to worry people. Just get them to think about things that normally get dismissed as insignificant.
If you can cool down your camper with a fan moving 50 CFM then more power to you! I have a dual hose portable air conditioner going in my trailer all day long using about 0.8kW per hour and I can't even keep it below 80F.
Your other choice is to pay the power company for the rest of your life.
Freedom is worth more than security
There are other choices but I agree that freedom is worth more than security. I am afraid that most of us are forgetting that truth in many areas of life.
Some of the information is a little old like costs unless better explained. Solar panels are the cheap part of the equation. Many solar companies pay pennies for the hardware, and mortgage your home to fund their pockets. I just bought 11.4kW of new Aptos solar panels with 30yr warranty for .25 cents/watt with free shipping. A GOOD 30kW solar array if you DIY can be had for $20k-$30k depending on battery needs. Myself I have been upgrading my solar slowly over time. Started with two 340 watt panels, x4 200Ah flooded 6v batteries, powering a few things in the home, and used as a power outage backup. Now, I have 15kW of solar panels (in my yard for easy access), 15.6+kWh of LifePO4 batteries, a GroWatt charge controller, and a 120V 6kW pure sine wave inverter. I'm not rich so I did the build this myself (my father is an electrician who helped guide my power hookups) at my 5 bedroom country home. If I had to guess I'd say I'm about $7k-$8k invested now. Due to costs rather than go grid I have my AC (downstairs only), fan, TV, computer, fridge, and charging my Bolt EV electric car running off the inverter. I set my car to charge 7AM to 7PM to avoid taxing the batteries, and let the solar take most the daytime load from these devices. That leaves the stove (not used a lot), microwave, and LED lights running off grid. In a power outage, I can swap some lights, and the microwave over with an extension cord. At night I use about 4-6 kWh of battery. That charges pretty quickly even on most cloudy days. If not the battery covers pretty well 2-3 days, and I can fall back on the grid if needed (very very rare). I did it this way several years ago due to cost. My next plan is to buy a EG4 18k PV when I can afford one. This will power the whole house with solar, and fall back to grid only when needed for max money saved. One step at a time with my limited retirement income! ;)
Costs are irrelevant. Plug in whatever number you want and run the numbers. You will still find the same principles apply today.
@@LDSreliance I would politely disagree. The quoted 30K array at $100k dollars vs arround $20k to $30k to build in today's market. At 25 cents per watt or less in Europe. It actually makes sense when building to over provision your solar panels. That's why I went with such a large array. I wanted to run AC, and the car on cloudy days. Many of your points are indeed correct. But in the context your price at $100k overprovisioning does not make sense. But now put today's prices on panels it absolutely does make sense unless your property is so tiny you don't have the room.
The federal government- VA Loan and FHA programs will not loan money on a off grid solar home...
OK?
I am always surprised that often these solar systems are bolted on roofs with shingles. Its a hige painin the butt to remove your system to allow the roofers to replace the shingles. Go with steel roofs folks. So much longer lasting and better for the environment.
Your last sentence is open for debate, but I agree with the rest. It is often written into the contract a price to remove the panels for roof replacement or maintenance. But it is not cheap and your panels SHOULD outlast a shingle roof so it is definitely something you need to be prepared to pay for if you plan to own the home a long time.
Where i live, during winter, we can easly go 3 weeks with out sun..............
Awesome!
Going to try an EG4 12k hybrid mini split ($1300) and replace the need to use (without removing) the gas central heat/cool for a 2000 sqft house. Just starting with one unit to test out and a bunch of panels (400W bifacial @ $120/ea). Not going to tie into the grid for net metering. Ground mounting panels. No batteries to start. Solar (3-4 panels) direct to unit in the day / 110V grid to unit at night. If it works well, I'll try an alibaba 12k hybrid mini split unit for $400/ea in use with my extra solar panels, but it will take 2 months to ship, and quality unknown. We'll see. Getting freight this week. 748 lbs... yikes. each panel is 57 lbs.
Post your results! I am curious how that turns out.