Is T11 going to be the easiest raid tier in Classic?
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- Опубликовано: 6 май 2024
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As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I think Normal should be highly accessible and pug friendly for the masses, with Heroic being tuned to the point where it requires an organized guild
Do you think the bosses being released in a post-nerf state rather than pre-nerf is kind of a response to the quick cadence they are giving to Cata Classic in general? With the roadmap being FAR shorter than what something like WOTLK was, I don’t think blizz really wants us to struggle or spend too long progressing a raid tier when the next one will be right around the corner
Was about to write a similar comment. I wonder if this was done purposely so that guilds don't spend time struggling and can enjoy the content with ease before the next phase of raid tier comes out.
I think blizzard learned from wotlk.
When you look at the numbers, naxx had vastly higher numbers of people raiding even in the last few weeks of the phase.
As soon as ulduar hit and raiding started to get super sweaty due to v high difficulty, the numbers dropped drastically.
The truth is, if people can't play semi casually and get through all the content, they just leave.
What they should have done was slap ZA/ZG with the Firelands patch and shorten DS, those were the main reasons why Cata has a bad rep.
@@dannystalford5029 Just clear normals then?
@@jacobosborne3070 if the loot was the same, i probably would
love to see you have clipped our run. Thanks for staying with us, it was fun.
Enjoyed the raid!
It makes sense to have nerfed raiding as this expansions cadance is greatly accelerated
Naxx had VASTLY the highest raid numbers in the whole expansion and it isnt even close. Even the last few weeks of p1 showed higher numbers than ulduar or icc.
If people cant play semi casually and ge the best gear, they just leave.
If they lock the best gear behind the top 1% of guilds, no one is going to play lol.
And this is coming from someone who has been part of a sweaty pve guild and have multiple r1 parses.
Most people dont want to be forced to play super sweaty raiding with elitist guilds where everyone hates each other.
people want to be able to clear content AND have fun
You don't play in a semi - serious guild, I can tell your projecting hard. Genuinely well - organized groups have FAR less drama that loot hungry casuals.
this is just straight up not correct. ulduar had more than naxx did
@@pudge1446big drop off when everyone realized how much harder ulduar was was than naxx
Might as well remove all mechanics from bosses and turn them into target dummies that drop enough items to deck the entire raid in one clear. Wish they would release cata with even pre-nerf dungeons before wrath babies QQ'd for nerfs.
@@scooberz2015 From experience, nope.
I spent the entirety of P2 in the best 2 guilds on my server. I have NEVER encountered so many elitist assholes and whiny sweaty neckbeards in all my existence.
It was at a stage where once progression was done, one Raid Lead was so elitist, he would refuse to heal melee dps and just let them die, lol. He would say "f*ck melee". But being high in the guild totem pole and a multi class R1 parser, he could do whatever he wanted. If someone made a mistake. He would rage on mic, and instantly go afk, or purposefully kill the whole raid and then complain for 30 minutes.
People would chastise and guilt trip ANYONE beneath them on logs if they were loot mastered a piece of gear.
And don't even get me started on the loot councils in these guilds. It was a shark den. You had to be prepared at all times to defend yourself from 24 people berating you for the SLIGHTEST inconvenience and blaming each other for every little thing - trying to posture themselves for loot council favor.
Often the criticism wasn't even valid. Just neckbeards with parses throwing their weight around to be jerks.
There's a reason these guilds have such high turnover. People realize that they aren't having fun...
In P1, I was in a casual-hardcore guild. Great bunch of lads, all listened, all wanted to improve, and all worked together. We brought the lower performers up and had great laughs.
Hey thats our Guild. Thanks for helping out and sticking with us. Nef was a shitshow
Enjoyed it!
As much as I like progression and the feeling of accomplishment that it gives, especially when you do it with your guild group; I get their thinking here.
Reality is that SSC/TK and Ulduar saw the largest dropoffs in classic wow’s history. It does not make sense to put actual effort to restore pre nerf content to actually be a detriment to your game.
This goes double when the cadence is accelerated. The population would die off completely with pre nerf Cata raids as soon as the casual people realize they will never clear/get bis.
In og cata i entered dragon soul in 378 ilvl, full normal Firelands gear, since when every single player has to clear heroics week 1 ?
@@Shrek0408 This isn't OG Cata. I've been playing Classic WoW since its first day in August 2019. Classic players do not want hard content. They quit in droves. I think that's the wrong attitude, but that's the reality. People will just quit if the content is hard. As a company, you have to cater to the majority of the playerbase.
@@Dalex19 we already have wow for casuals, its called SOD, why we cant have semi hard content in Classic? I dont want to play retail because its not the game what i grew up with. Cata was 14 years ago, we as a playerbase are much better with the game and we have thousands of weak auras, if anything just make it even harder
@@Shrek0408 I agree, but if half of the raiding population quit, Classic will be done. It's only viable to play and have Classic servers if everyone sticks to playing Classic. Content that's to difficult will make a lot of players quit ergo less money > no Classic.
@@Shrek0408 I agree with you bud. I also want harder content trust me. I just don't want the game to die.
Im in a dad guild that managed everything but H LK prenerf then fell apart during the holiday season. We've cut the roster down to one night 10m and would be happy if that lasted us 5-6 weeks of prog
As a Dad of 4 who played in top end guilds during the original releases of wotlk till legion, I would actually appreciate not to have an overtuned raid with a lot of gear grinding before even clearing it. I prefer to make it less time consuming so even I with not that much free time to use for gaming can enjoy every part of the game for the nostalgia part of it.
Don‘t get me wrong, I don‘t want loot pinjatas but I definitely don‘t have the time to progress hours after hours till we down prenerf Firelands Ragnaros Heroic for the first time….
dann spiel es doch nicht? ein game das 2. mal zu spielen und zu erwarten mit allem zusätzlichen wissen sowie späteren patchversion (und somit auch stärkeren klassenversionen) dann zusätzlich nochmal extra einfacheren content zu spielen ergibt einfach 0,0 sinn.
As a 3-spec shaman, which race would you advise to play?
Orc imo. its the most versatile for all 3, enha and ele benefits heavily from Orc and Resto can be played as any race realistically
one mistake blizzard is making with cata that they've made repeatedly in the past is they are overcorrecting. blizzard leaves final phases up for 1 year in classic, which is stupid. so the players complained about the length and their response? make the entire expansion take only a fucking year. i'm sure everyone would be happy if every raid tier was 5-6 months and the whole thing was 15-18 months.
To me classic is at its best when its a chill time with the boys: joking around during raid without having to keep constant clear comms; playing the classes and comps you want without feeling pressure to be meta slaves; avoiding the frustration and raging caused by multiple wipes. Yes the content might be boringly easy for seasoned players with all the modern advantages we have now, but in my experience these kind of players seem to want to be raid logging and playing something else as fast as possible anyway.
You had the option to buy 359 sure, but your character was wearing 346 and the option to buy other 346. Not many guilds actually killed all the heroic bosses in BWD or BoT due to bugs just like H Alakir was giga bugged in P3 and unkillable. The tuning will probably be fine for most dad guilds which is the majority of the player base. You never really tune around the top end - though what the top end does typically ends up being trickle down meta.
haha this reminds me of today, morning :D
i think hc will be fine and like the ulduar hardmodes
We pugged T11 on beta yesterday and 1 shot all bosses and full cleared easily without discord 🤨
I haven't played Cataclysm ever. I completed every Mythic raid tier from SoO to Castle Nathria. And I have so far done every Classic raid pre-nerf (Vashj and Kael week 1, BT week 2 and SWP week 2. Ulduar and ICC both pre-nerf, except for XT). From my knowledge and what I've been seeing and reading, raids in T11 and up should be more challenging or as challenging as both LK HC and Halion etc. I kind of expected the raids and dungeons to be quite hard in terms of damage numbers, both player and encounter hits etc.
Realistically though, making content to difficult will alienate a lot of players, just look @ Ulduar for example, how many people quit due to hard modes just being to difficult or Algalon being a boss that's difficult for guilds to comfortably have a go at etc. So I did expect nerfs or raids to be more accesible to the mass amount of players. I do agree though, the more parse centered it becomes, the less likely I'll also stick around.
I hope they find a midway for most players, I don't expect them to ever go to 'pre-nerf' content, especially with the speed of this expansion. It does kinda feel a bit like a cash grab instead of a passion project.
I prefer harder content. However, with the vastly sped up phasing of the entire expansion, we won't have time for most guilds to be able to fully progress one raid before the next raid is released if they're put out in pre-nerf versions.
Thats true, maybe its the increased cadence that has influenced the decision
but thats why they have you guys going around testing
I don’t know about yall but I wish they’d slow it down a bit. I was looking forward to the pvp as much as the pre in cata and don’t think we’ll get enough time with either
Normal is easy and shoukd be. Heroic is way harder. And these guilds that cleared were in full 359 and full tier . A lie.
There were very few guilds that full cleared, and even less that did it with ethical gear. No one full cleared T11 content on beta due to bugs (Alakir)
cata heroics raids are suppose to take months for avg guilds to clear, so if it turns out to be easy it will be a disappointment for sure. Naturally as players we minmax the game to death, will have god teir weak auras aswell as op end cata talents (like hpala) spaming holyradiance to win the game, something they should only be able to do at dragonsoul patch but we have straight of the rip which are naturally gona make fights easier but lowering hp values and damage will just make them braindead
Everything is easy now, wiping in a raid is something good and part of the game...i personally dont enjoy easy content. Humble and personal view from someone that loves this game
I did Fireland and Dragonsoul and the heroics felt much easier then phase 1. Normal phase 1 never felt hard.
I think Ulduar was the perfect difficulty, all the normal modes were easy to one shot even for dad guilds on launch, but there was a nice steady progression and it might take a few months before Hodir/Mim were taken down with consistency and 3-4 months before Alg was downed. But I admit, while the progression factor was nice, I had a great time in Naxx. Naxx was laid back, puggable and as for the first tier of the expansion it was kinda nice to have so many mechanic light loot pinatas where you could full-focus on rotation. I'm not sure what the correct answer is, but even if top guilds are clearing in a few hours, LK/Alg were also cleared extremely early by guilds so as long as the heroics pose some difficulty to your 75 parsing dad guild and take a few weeks/maybe a month to prog I think its in a good spot. As long as the final bosses pose some challenges on HC, its fine if the earlier bosses on HC aren't too bad as it helps with the gearing curve and provides a sense of accomplishment.
i did kill pair bosses in heroic with my guild on a private server. AND every boss we kill like 10 mins. a lot of dmg a lot of helth bosses have. 1 mistake = wipe. i think it was pre-nerf idk how it will be on release. we did it 25h. hope they nerf
Uhm, did you clear full HC in a couple of hours? All the t11?
No almost no guilds full cleared BWD and BoT - Alakir was also giga bugged in phase 3 and unkillable.
Historically, the first raid tier of an expansion is fairly easy. I don't see a huge issue with that.
The existence of both Normal and Heroic as difficulties means to me we should be able to have the best of both worlds.
Heroic can be kept at the prenerf challenging level for those that want a challenge, and Normal mode can be streamlined to be as open to those that wish to pug or have light short raiding schedules where you clear the bosses quickly and easily.
I don't believe Heroic difficulty needs to be compromised nor does Normal mode need to be a drawn out challenge.
I will be quite disappointed if I'm staring at Nefarian and Sinestras Heroic corpses within the first couple of weeks.
Thats a fair thing, unfortunatley classic has conditioned people to expect to full clear the hardest difficulty and get full BiS :(
What you expect if first raid Tier is 8 weeks?
its not 8 weeks dummy. Its literally 5 months long.
Given the time frame of the expansion I would personally, prefer a easier content. There wont really be time for long ass progressions, so politically probably give the players a easier stroll and just get trough the expansion quickly so we all go RAID - SIEGE of OGRIMAR & Thrones of Thunder! :D
I wonder how this effects MoP tho, will we get Post-nerf ToT / SoO?
I would prefer the difficulty, however they're clearly rushing the expansion which im sad about.
Im already sad because the main thing i remembered was the hard heroic dungeons - however it seems like they're gutting those, so they can make them easy and lay the 'gamma' system on top of them, which blows.
if this is true im going to get bored pretty fast, and i dont want them to touch mop if this is what they are going to do to content just so people can stomp raids like this is easy mode
I think we need to stick with post-nerf tunings because when we get to MoP, people are going to quit.
Heroic SoO and Throne of Thunder are real guild-breakers.
they can very well have been testing mechanics on ptr, mechanics bugs ruin the first week, adjusting damage and health values up is a easy thing
100% !
It should stay like this when it's 3 raids mabye make firelands and dragon soul pre nerf
yaa the normals are a joke and im ok with that! but the jump from normal to heroic will be eye opening for some guilds
Its sad but Cata wont be the same raiding experience as it was, simply due the fact that they are rushing cata content, until january dragonsoul will be out, so it cant be too hard because of this fact alone.. sadge.
Im at 3:00 in this video, but you talk about normal difficulty. That should never be hard for normal players, it should always be easy as new player entry.
i think its pretty clear, if you want a raiding challenge play retail. people who like classic like easy raids. the numbers speak for themselves
if they undertune raids, i'll probably dip - cata raiding is one of my favorite wow prog experiences. challenging and fair. im not really here for steamrolling for purples or parsing farm content. no challenge, no point
I hate how progression works in classic wow, we are not jobless teens anymore, not all people can play at the same time on a different day. That's what I love about retail wow, you can progress on a boss with different people 24/7
So to answer you question, classic raid difficulty should be tailored around the random pug and not towards a high end guild
That's why you find a guild with your preferred raiding time. I'd rather raid every week with the same people than different people every week.
If you can't do that, just pug.
@ahetzel9054 Seems like we have a different understanding of what progression means.
Progression means wiping over and over again (sometimes hours) on the same boss. raiding outside the allocated guild raiding time, meaning more than 3h, so another day must be scheduled for all the guild members to attend.
And it's very difficult to find such a day and time for 25 people, maybe not as bad for 10 man, but it's still an issue.
I said different people only because not all guild members can join the progressions on a different day.
If you haven't played retail, there are no unique Ids, you can join different groups on different boss stages whenever you want, the only restriction is that you get loot once per boss, per reset, but you can join other groups just to progress a fight that your guild for example is struggling with any time you want
@@ahetzel9054not everyone can raid the same day, same time every week though. I’m just talking about my experience though, I’m a shift worker and a father of 2. I’m slowly starting to realise that retail might be the only option for me since you can raid whenever. I know PUGs exist in classic but it’s not nearly as quick and convenient as retail to actually do them.
Maybe you're just garbage?
Just go play retail and leave real gamers to do what real gamers do
Current tier should be made as it was, when it progresses to the next tier, I have no issues with nerfed values, you werent good enough, here enjoy the LFR version of the raid so that you can see the content and catch up on gear. Who am I kidding, the moment they try twilight council with pre-nerf values they will QQ again to blizzard for nerfs.
Ascendent council is a fight that still causes me nightmares haha
@@mijae1146
I think so, yeah. Keep in mind, the nerfs to SoO were warranted and welcomed. Thok and Seigecrafter were probably the hardest bosses in the game up to that point and guilds were seeing upwards of a hundred wipes in a lockout.
wait where were you getting the 359 gear?
Had the option to buy it from vendors, could wear full 346 heroic dungeon blues if you wanted.
@@Juggs_WoW damn I didn't see that :/ looks like it's not there anymore
I just want to make 3 points....1) it's the beta, things can absolutely change, 2) there's an accelerated timeline - so less time for casual players to see all content, and 3) its the first tier...it should be easy.
Just enjoy your time. Cata is just MOP waiting room.
80% of players are more inclined to play and gain more enjoyment out of approachable content. The 20% that aren't are addicts who will play the game anyway. Why would Blizzard *not* have approachable raid content? Wrath numbers were highest in naxx, dropped in ulduar, spiked again in ToGC, and fell through the floor in ICC, that's indicative.
indicative of alts yes
@@Blubking1 nah its pretty clear, not only did the numbers drop but many guilds just straight up stopped raiding as well even some older guilds from the start of classic
@@insanity2929 mix of both but more so alts. Naxx and Togc were alts haven
I just hope they do something with the difficulty. Its shame that its post-nerf state of raids. If it ends up being so bad as release of wotlk Naxx, i will struggle to keep interested.
The bad part is you'll be one of like 5 players that feels that way. Most ppl will just raid drunk and enjoy raiding with friends.
This is yet again Blizzard listening to specific people about how much they hate Cata and rushing us through to MOP. With the increased cadence we can't spend weeks on progression so needs to be walk-over. Also so many people complain about the mechanic bosses in wrath it seems like they have decided to just effectively removed them from Cata. I like progression it gives you a sense of achievement when you finally get it down
Because of the accelerated timeline of cataclysm, I think that having an easier raiding experience is better for the game. People like getting their shiny purples. Classic players stop playing the game when the content becomes too hard.
Do normal then
Considering we’re losing the ability to do both 10 and 25, I would’ve preferred harder content to give us something to work through.
Pre-nerf Heroics please, let them actually be hard.
If people want to chill and wonder through the raid, let them do normals.
Nothing is mechanically easier than patchwerk.
Well.... thats true :P
I'm not really surprised you're kind of steamrolling these raids because the playerbase has changed quite a lot since original Cataclysm. But I also feel like entry level raids shouldn't be hard. They should be there as an incentive for players to step foot in a raid. I don't really mind raids being a little easier and is a reason why I stepped over to Classic from doing mythic raiding. It also creates a healthier PUG environment with easier content.
Thats kinda the purpose of this video, i was very interested to see what people are wanting from cata!
Disclamer: I enjoy the raids being harder, and progression. I dont think harder/easier content has anything to do with raid logging or not. At one point you stated something along the lines of "do you want raids to be harder, or easier where you'll raid log". What would a harder raid provide you to continue playing outside of raid logging? The game itself has to have other areas to grind. There needs to be a reason to play outside of progression or farm. Even if you are wiping on progression, adding another raid day isn't anything other than "raid logging an extra day".
So, that is definatley true. However, i find that whilst we are progressing i spend a good chunk of time farming content, or trying to minmax myself.
@@mijae1146 i guess my point is, farming the raid content is nothing more than raid logging. You can't min max harder in the world if you are stuck on H LK in wotlk. You can only add more raid days. Blizzard doesn't do anything to keep us playing the game currently outside of getting pre raid stuff, and then raid log. Retail does better with this with extra things to do, to a point. Classic has always been a raid log mentality (except grinding pre raid or getting pre raid things ready)
@@ReHLab classic has always been you gotta kinda make shit up to do, in vanilla wow you get 60 you dont really need pre bis at all you can go in at greens but getting pre bis will help your dps and its something to do so you do it, same with profs or anything else, retail has more shit to do because its the content from every single expansion, You have tmog farming mount farming pet farming pet battles all the content from 20 years ago at your hands, if you STRICTLY play dragonflight content there isnt THAT much more than something like cata or mop
All the talk about Cata being on par with 0% LK went out the window. Roster boss going to be a major problem by week 4 for good guilds.
Will they be easier than people want/expect? Sure... almost assuredly and for a laundry list of reasons (nerfs, player experience, game knowledge, etc) will they be easier than Wrath Naxx? Ha, seems unlikely. Trash packs in cataclysm have more mechanics to do than Naxx.
I think raids shouldn't be cleared week 1, raiding logging is going to happen and it sucks.
I'm just going to quit if this is the case. So tired of loot pinatas killing classic.
Bcause your hearing 11 yr old stories on how raids and dungeons are hard when the total gaming mentality and meta has evolved and with better computer and the average gamer is better than they were 11 years ago
bro lol private servers have been around for so long, it has nothing to do with 11 years ago and everything to do with the fact that in 4.3 they nerfed the shit outta the old raids, most private servers buffed these raids back up but blizzard is not because of the timeline of cata.
Smdh same thing was said about tbc and wraith it's gonna be the same in cata even with the buffs the majority of guilds will be doing heroic I remember private servers were saying warriors and rouges were gonna be trash until BT low and behold even with pre nerf raids warriors were pumping in phase 1 its gonna happen in cata the same way it has everything to do its an 11yr old game
The idea that classics need to be harder because the sweats get bored is silly. There is a version of wow where classes are generally overcomplicated for no reason and most of the population don't clear... why are you not there?
Every detail about your class, professions, dungeons, and raids are available online. You do not need prior experience to do well. Making it harder so you can stroke your own ego and lord it over dad guilds is sad.
I mean, what you would expect to happen when you only have phases that last 3 months? I don't really like the bad attitude that sone content creators sometimes bring to the player base. Tha game is gonna be fun and thats it.
If you ll not enjoy it fore some reasons just don t play it, but don t tell other ppl to not play it cause of YOUR reasons (wich for you could be bad things but for otgers could be the complete opposite)
now i am worried , i wanna some progression , i want pre-nerf bosses
They should buff the content like they do on pservers, at least on heroic. Maybe buff just heroic only bosses to be suoer challenging.
Most Classic players are too bad for Lich King without buff. Cata will be really challenging for them. Also Classic isnt about the challenge. Most people play it because retail got too hard and sweaty.
"Progression" is not a thing when the entire expansion is set to be done in around 8-10 months... if blizz do not increase loot drops it will be impossible for the majority of guilds to clear heroic firelands or heroic dragon soul... simply not enough loot in 12 weeks between... however they did state titan rune like dungeons so maybe that will fill the gap for gearing, but this will feel super bad for the majority being forced into a constant loop of "complete a few bosses > do titan rune dungeons to get the majority of gear > spend 12 weeks in the next raid and repeat...(yes the first tier will be the longest but the others are hyper condensed)
tier 11 heroic is a fucking wall, t12/t13 are fairly simple
I hope they tune these fights up a lot and make it so that really organized and skilled players with less gear can kill the bosses early, while less organized and less skilled players will be able to kill the bosses later, under the requirement that they have more gear. Time gate gear acquisition so that the raid bosses are artificially nerfed over time.
That's disappointing because some of my favorite content was heroics from TBC and they were punishing for undergeared and uncoordinated groups. I wish there was a toggle for prenerf versions of content that provide cosmetics or titles.
if there wont be real progress i will insta quit
edit:
its the same with sod
if there is no peak content or the peak content is to easy to clear i wont wait for the next content
everone who is asking for buffing / pre-nerf raids will cry first week because you dont kill bosses xD have fun
Let the players who feel entitled to 1st week heroic clears cry, and the rest of us can enjoy a nice challenge.
How shame! It's a cata remix not classic
same as wrath lol wrath never had GAMMA heroics or feral dps doing this amount of crazy shit
If we cleared pre nerf heroic back then we can surely do it now. They don't need to mess with this xpac, just let us relive the good old times
I vote for progress, who care about easy game?
So your saying you want heroic to be LFR basically were its a joke and still want bis gear? Hey heres your participation trophy. Oh look I don't have to think. Oh I am mad that people who want a challenge have a mode to do it becuase they get better gear. So also someone who cleared naxx week 1 but didn't kill heroic 25m LK until 30% a month or 2 before prepatch and I liked that I finally killed heroic LK it felt massive. And guess what all it takes to kill heroic LK with 30% is some basical knowledge of your class and having a brain... And most of that brain is WA. I have no problem with normal being clearable for most guild by half threw the phase. THis is a note to those saying this is a good thing.
I expected pre nerf values, will make me sad if they release it post nerf and it becomes "trival" and raid loggy.
give us the easy raids man fuck this hard shit i want to have a few beers and chill without having to settle for shitty normal gear
Sounds like a skill issue. Go play SOD then loser. Cataclysm should be accurate to what is was when it came out, not easy for babies like you.
Total and utter BS... Not sure why this guy is lying through his teeth about ougs clearing all on HC
I have no reason to lie to you about that, going on beta and speaking to other content creators shows just how many guilds cleared many HC bosses
Naxx was and is so boring that I usually skip the entire phase because of how easy and boring it is. If first phase Cata is the same then I likely won't play. Parsing culture is prevalent because there's nothing to do in raids, which is boring.
yeah well thats kinda just you, if you look at the graphs Naxx wrath was peak and it spiked back up during TOC, same with Kara in tbc compared to SSC/TK and same as compared to MC vs Vanilla naxx
@@insanity2929 Naxx is because that's the beginning of the expansion. Your point is invalid. The raid is still bad and pretty much no one thinks it's peak anything.
It's a snoozefest with boring mechanics.