The only member who actually had a past association with Christianity is Hong Eunchae as she was a church leader (Sunday school kid teacher I guess). Yunjin is mostly agonistic or Buddhist. Everyone else is unknown.
it's the belief that there is a god or being that has made the universe. But they are not sure what is out there so they do not claim a specific religion. @@yourname4531
So fascinating to me that lesserafim originally had 6 members, similar to how the seraphim angel has 6 wings, well one got cut off for bullying allegations but that’s probably not how they planned that to go-
Conspiracy theory, I think it might have been planned, especially since it happened so soon after their debut. Scandals like Garam’s get a lot of attention, and would draw attention to the group as the scandal unfolded. They are a HYBE group so it’s not like they needed the extra clout, but who knows what PR teams are thinking.
@ShootingStarStudio This is what I sometimes think about at night😅 Besides Sujin(gidle), there were many idols who were accused of school bullying. But their companies were able to protect them. Garam was kicked out before the investigation was over. It looked like Hybe was trying to make himself look like a good guy who was against violence. But right after that independent lawyers and experts came to her defense and proved her innocence. Could that also be part of the plan? What happened to the girl who slandered her? Isn’t slander a crime? People said she moved schools and got away with it😐 It’s just my thoughts, I don’t want to offend anyone. I’m glad Garam’s innocence has been proven)
yup, their whole concept has been thought with the 6 of them in mind. which is crazy considering how fast hybe dropped garam, and didn't think to include another trainee to replace her to maintain the seraphim/6 concept.
and now the sixth wing of Garam has conveniently been replaced with the fandom. Similarly to how Seventeen was supposed to debut as actually 17, but four members left so they had to make up with it by saying "13 members, 3 units, one group" or something (as far as I heard)
Thank you so much for talking about this topic! As a Christian it’s exhausting trying to explain to people that disrespect to ANY religion is wrong. And also being black and seeing ppl use the excuse that Christianity is a “white man’s religion” is beyond frustrating considering my country, Ethiopia, has been Christian since the 4th century. Thank you so so much for shedding light on this topic! 💞
Most people forgetting about Ethiopia and Armenia, as well as the land in which Jesus himself was born in, when talking about Christianity being "for white people" always rubs me the wrong way. As a fellow Christian i admire the persistent ethiopian faith 🩷 i hope you'll be more appreaciated and respected one day, as well as all Christians ☹️
omg hihiih im also an ethiopian christian, it's so nice to someone who is as well ❤i agree with everything u said, it's so frustrating constantly seeing christianity being degraded and seen as nothing, it's a beautiful religion like any other and has so much diversity. ppl honestly have no idea what they're saying when they say christianity is simply a "white man's religion" when there are so many followers outside of the west. it makes me so upset :(
same, people don't seem to realise that there are plenty of Christians outside of America and Europe, and not all of us are white (not that that should even matter).
As a muslim, I've always found it extremely disrespectful not because islam and Christianity is very similar but because any religion does NOT deserve to be disrespected like this, even if it's my fav. I've been recently slowly fading away from being a fearnot because of the easy MV.
thank you for understanding!! no religion should be disrespected and corrupted like this, ever since i saw the unforgiven mv & lyrics i knew i had to give the group up, what they are doing is glamourizing evil & the devil, and it is not good.
Thank you. I know your own religion has being paint as violent in many ways, I even have pointed that because that fame people respected it but in truth I belive no one belifts must be used for making jokes nor to justify hate or violence because at the end most religions try to make us follow the path of love, forgivness and peace. And we, cristians, jews and muslims belive in the same Good, even if we express it in different ways so I feel as if all of you are my brothers and sisters in Good so it is a shame we should keep fighting among us.
I love them and their songs so much but the moment I found the lyrics and their sources of origins and finding out the mockery to God and siding with the devils that backstabbed The Good nah … I have had to let go. I don’t stand for all this in a world where satanism is taking over all our favourite superstars
For me as a Christian i think the angel concept would be fine if it was respectful but standing in front of the cross singing that and the crown of thorns had me raise a eyebrow
Fr I could excuse the angel concept bc it's not the first and it'll not be the last group to use it but the crown of thorns photoshoot was just too much
@sahxx2165 yeah I've spoken about it before and the response was insane and what got me the most was they were really hitting the straight white man who hates other religions when I'm gay and have Jewish ancestry I'm very proud of
the angel concept if done respectfully wouldnt be that bad, but to have a group singing about how their unforgiven, how they are like eve and wish for whats forbidden, doing the devil horns.. i had seen enough lol. their concept wasnt intended to be a angel concept, it was a fallen angel concept, while also urging listeners of their music to join them in being unforgiven girls.
what;s crazy is unforgiven was actually interesting with the storytelling about them starting to be okay to be seen as "the bad guy" for the path they chose. in life, there are instances where we either choose our dreams or conform to what people in our life like family think what's best for us, and often when we choose the former, we end up losing the people who once were in our lives, which is kinda like being unforgiven in a sense. instead we got... whatever unforgiven was. easy was the last straw for me bc they disrespected so much of the catholic tradition in one fell swoop - dancing in the altar with minimal clothing, chaewon wearing the mantilla inappropriately, wearing the crown of thorns and so on... guess they really make it look easy at doing whatever the hell they want 🙃
@ayakaimpacts I think if they wanted to take the Lilith approach it would work like angels who chose independence they could also express the struggles that come with it I actually love the concept idea and love the songs but it makes me uncomfortable when I see them use religious imagery in a insensitive way just like when people do it to Jewish people because my Jewish heritage
Yeah no, everybody is talking about the same thing in the Easy MV comments, she really thought she brought something new to the table, not to mention that she’s late to the party too, lool.
Garam is the realest victim that was made to be a villain. Ironically, she was unforgiven and discarded despite her innocent. The concept for this group must be a slap in her face from hybe/source every time they have a comeback. wild
Y'all very very funny, Cause from what I recall, kpoppies were all over the internet insulting Garam and calling her all kind of names. When Hybe tried to defend here, people even accused the poor girl of sleeping with someone important in hybe. When hype kept defending her, people started to accuse her of being some privileged kid, that her parents were rich and that they were paying for her to stay there. Where is this narrative that hybe is the bad guy coming from? It's Kpop stans all long, y'all the rotten ones who forced the agency to fire her after 2 weeks of debut. Come back to reality, y'all to comfortable rewriting history when YOU PEOPLE were the villains all along.
its all "fine" and "not that deep" until you realize its only Christianity being mocked for ages. not saying any other religion is fine to mock but the blasphemy here is real
What’s crazy too is even outside of kpop why is there multiple rappers who put themselves on a cross pretending to be Jesus or people like jay z nickname is Jay-Hova or Hova short for jehovah
I agree with this strongly. I realised, as a Christian growing up, that it is so hard to stand my ground and to express when I am hurt by others' comments towards my religion. I am from a multi-religious country that is usually open and accepting of different religions, but suddenly when I say that I am a Christian, others view me differently. And that is more prominent now. When I see other Christians voice out their concerns and discomfort towards the concept and image that Le Sserafim has, the backlash is so intense. The invalidation and threats that they receive are so extreme. It's so bad.. Just because you might not agree with what our religion is about, doesn't mean that you get to disrespect it.
if le sserafim's concept didn't involve christianity it would have worked out, the whole I'm fearless idc what society thinks of me it's ac pretty great, not sticking to the standards of society and being anti fragile against the hate would have been way better than adding Christianity symbolism to make it seem "cool" I've been weary of them since antifragile era and honestly I just wish they had taken the route of not caring bout how society has become.
True. One thing we Christians should learn from Muslims and Hinduism believers is be more vocal about such cases instead of gaslighting ourselves about it not being that deep (pretty common among Christians). Actually, if any kpop stan (no matter of what religion) expressed their disappointment about disrespecting any religion or just using any sacred symbols before, it would be appropriate to do this now too.
Honestly, I think the biggest culprit to this is Hollywood. The American entertainment industry has been using and mocking Christianity and God for decades. I'm not even a Christian and I get offended by so many films and music that I don't even bother with finishing it. And these images have been seeping into the Asian entertainment industry over the past decade.
I'm an atheist, and i agree with this video 100 %. I have always hated this double standard when it comes to Christianity and other religions. If you aren't okey with the fact that other religions are being disrespected you should have the same energy when it comes to Christianity.I do understand why people don't like Christianity for the reasons that you mentioned in the video,but let's not act like other religions haven't done the same thing. Islam did the same thing they invaded other countries to force their religion, and they were brutal. Islam was forced on my people for over 500 years by Ottoman Empire,but everyone nowadays acts like Islam had a peaceful history which isn't true at all.Again, keep the same energy for other religions or don't speak at all.(this includes non religious people and atheists too).Stop the double standards.
thank you for your understanding! there really shouldnt be a double standard, because everywhere no matter what religion thereare going to have bad people who to bad things. i think the double standard is there because many westerners have been hurt by the church/christians, so they have a prejudice towards christianity as a whole now. which i get why people are like this because ive been hurt by so many of these "christians". it just seems like westerners dont know much about other religions but christianity, so they dont know other religions can do bad too🤷♀
agree. Im not religious so i dont care either way what lesserafim does, but Christians themselves need to do their part and either not support or demand better. Others need to leave them be but unfortunately religion itself has been tainted so i doubt thats ever gonna happen. But yeah I think Christian Kpop stans in general need to consider more carefully who they support since Korea might have Christians but many Christians believe only certain things or pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible. This is especially rampant in America since my parents are christian and the reason why in america religion has gotten so lax. If anything this isn't the first time this happened. Lady Gaga did this with her song Judas (a bop hahaha but I'm sure a lot of Christians hated that).
@@markigirl2757Exactly, it's christians themselves who need to fight this. This is what happens when other religions experience disrespect, they unite and voice their joint opinion. But that's difficult to do as Christians because as you mentioned, liberalism. Some are okay with it, some are not, some don't care. If you as people can't unite, no one's going to take you seriously and change anything. As a Muslim I was horrified when I saw Judas, I was like "is this okay ?", so confused
I don’t think it’s a double standard actually. I think it’s that in the case of Muslims and Jews, they”re told to be proud of their religion, so they’re more vocal about it. Also, because if I’m not Christian, I don’t really care about someone “offending” Christianity, why should I?
As a Muslim, I notice how quick it is to jump and lash out on kpop artists who disrespected islam (nct and the mosque decor as an example), but the same response is not given when groups are making aesthetics about creatures prominent in different religions. Honestly I am not as close to kpop as I once was, one of the reasons being it was deterring me from my religion to an unhealthy point. Lesserafim’s team might think it’s just a visually aesthetic concept, but it could easily be taken as mocking or devaluing the creatures Christianity holds important. Interesting topic.
thank you for noticing the differences! i completely understand when kpop fans are upset when there is disrespect of islam, it is unfortunate that christians cant be taken seriously when they bring up their own discomfort and disrespect in the industry. i am in the same boat as you are, im distancing myself away from kpop, because i think its unhealthy to be so focused on idols, rather than focusing on God!
@@markigirl2757 We are not "lax", that's really only the Americans/Westerners who don't actually follow Christianity and simply use it as a title or aesthetic for monetary gain.
Christianity in the West is tied to far right censorship and hate. That's why it's so easy to ridicule. Fundamentalist Islam has the same problem, but Muslims are far less preachy to people outside of their religion than many Christians are. Islam has also been villainized by the West for political reasons, so it's seen as more sympathetic than Christianity. There's also Christianity's ties to imperialism, forced conversion and white supremacy. The tendency to mock Christianity and Christians is justifiably tied to anger over marginalization. It's also not considered taboo to meme Jesus. I suspect that heavy use of Biblical imagery in kpop is tied to both rebellion against Christianity's dominance in the country and a reverence of it. Mockery of Christianity is always a mockery of certain sects that are seen as abusive and annoying, not the orthodox and respectful sects that aren't LOUD about their faith.
Whelp. Never listening to LeSerrafim again, I guess. As someone who grew up in a country where Christianity is a minority religion and actually still faces persecution in some areas, I’m not as cool with this as the West seems to be.
Yes, Christians still do face a lot of persecution in many Middle Eastern countries, especially in many Islamic countries where, as Donald Trump put it, are under the rule of "radical Islam." I hope for their safety and well-being even as a non-Christian myself.
I litteraly learned antifragile dance😢. I reget getting in kpop completly. I feel free like a bird now. Before, I felt like demons are in my phone and I couldn't sleep or pray next to it. Also don't worry, God will win so, if He is with us who is against us? They just proove our Lord is alive.
This is a fantastic topic to bring up! Hypocrisy is the most important point... If certain kpop scenes were changed due to offending certain religions, then why is it suddenly okay to have an entire concept disrespecting Christianity? When people say it's okay to mock Christianity because people have used it to hurt them, I wonder if they feel the same way about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc? Also, as a Christian, if somebody used it to hurt somebody I feel very sorry for them and will stand by them, but hating and holding bitterness in your heart will never allow you to truly heal. This isn't just a Christian teaching but also pretty popular in most forms of therapy.
Not sure I’ll see LS the same again. Disappointing that they’d disrespect any religion for cash and fame. Why demean others’ beliefs? Hope the members reconsider this unnecessary disrespect.
same, didn't realise the level of symbolism they had just casually used since I don't usually watch kpop mvs anyway, but yeah this video was an eye opener
@@BillyWhaler it could be that they don’t want to actually do this concept, and they’re in a contract. Also I don’t see why people have to believe what I do and why do they have to respect what I believe in?
@@vivid_blossoms no one has to believe in something you do or don't do to respect it. It's generally expected to be respectful of everyone's faith and Christian beliefs shouldn't be an exception to that. Such things have a larger impact as opposed to just one person's opinion on something. Besides, it's not so much about respect as it is about disrespect
What I've noticed is that its always "not that deep" and "you're being sensitive" when it comes to Christians being offended and their religion being mocked , but dare say this to someone else from another religion who feels offended by a certain song/MV and you'll be put on the stake. I think we should try to respect EVERY religion, whether you agree with it or not, everyone deserves to be respected.
Amen to that! Idk if it's that these people were neglected by their families and weren't taught respect, but where I came from, I grew up around several religions and we were all taught to respect eachother. These days, being edgy and disrespectful especially towards Christianity is seen as cool or the popular opinion. 😒
You don't even have to bring up how Christianity started in the Middle East and how Jesus was described as brown, but even now, as of today, you still have millions of non-white worhippers who have been Christian for a longer time than Europeans have. There's churches as far as India older than the ones in Europe, and Christianity is vibrant in some parts of the country. In Northern Africa you have the Copts, descendants of Ancient Egyptians who've been Christian since the Romans converted them almost 2000 years ago. But the most important population would probably the Ethiopian Orthodox people, amongst the first ethnic group to adhere to Christianity and they're fulll Black Africans. And as an atheist I agree on the weird obsession atheists have with Christianity, although it might be because most of them (myself included) come from that background and know more about it than about any other religion.
I totally agree with you! It is really unfair that (coming from an atheist) Christianity is often mocked or, as in lsrm's case used as a concept praising all that is evil and then not even critized by large amounts of people! Yes, I get that other religions are still disrespected and having that faith could have got you killed back then, but that was/is the same case with Christianity. People need to realize that every religion is being mocked by some people and that needs to stop. Also I'm glad you're back!
I'm not a religious person but i agree with you 10000000% on this one i find it so strange that some kpop stans always say "we should respect all religions " except Christanity wicth is the most hypocritical thing i have ever seen in my 24 years on this earth
As a Catholic since birth this is a weird af comment section. What is with the victim complex? Christianity simply hasn't been taboo in the West, sure we might get a double standard in terms of respecting our symbols and practices because Christianity is almost synonymous with a lot of Western culture. Like think about Christmas, I honestly used to get really annoyed at how bastardised Christmas is. You can make the same arguement for Easter too. But guess what it's a double sword because you don't get persecuted in the West like those who practice Islam or Judaism. It seems like people here are mad about this 'double standard' not being called out but it's simply stupid because 1. It's not a double standard, it's the result of vastly different histories of different religions in different areas of the world, they are two separate issues. And 2. The only reason you don't see people calling it out is because you're only looking at one subsect of people, namely more liberal leaning individuals. Guess what, most of these people who are 'calling out' disrespect against Islam are probably younger more liberal thinking people, who are probably used to Islam being stigmatised in the West as a religion of terror. To them Christianity is just more widely accepted, and thus they don't feel the need go out of their ways to defend it. Not saying that's correct, but ignoring this is like looking at a tree that's fallen down and not trying to figure out what made it fall down. You get no valuable information. I personally think there is disrespect against Christianity, and I don't like that. But this comment section is pathetic. Pretending like Christianity is the only religion to draw the short end of the stick. As if people don't actively call Muslims and Hindus 'terrorists and rapists' on the daily. Is that not disrespect? Or does it suddenly not count because twitter gets mad at one thing but not the other? No one owns the monopoly on persecution, stop comparing your issues to others as if that invalidates them. I assure you, Christianity gets plenty of benefits that the other religions do not, as well as many drawbacks that the others do not. That's life, you should be able to stand up for your own religion without invalidating or trivialising the pain of another. Clearly some of you don’t understand the meaning of Christianity, look at your insecure words, unempathetic perspectives and inability to have compassion for your neighbours and seriously ask yourselves if God would be approving.
It’s true. It’s odd to think that like people don’t disrespect other religions Go into any comment section about Islam for example, plenty of disrespect there.
good point. Personally i never saw that as disrespect. I even use Christianity symbolism in many things bc its fascinating in itself with its already documented lore in explaining things etc. Ive seen Christianity used in many types of stories and movies and never found them disrespectful just ways to showcase something many people universally believe in. I think however there is room for criticism and Christians that take the bible super seriously have a right to criticize but the reason its not a huge deal fro us in the US is bc Lesserafim is not the first nor will be the last that showed religious symbolism as way to convey a message--a way for Christians to make a connection to their religion as well. As for other religions, i cannot speak on them and like Christians they are allowed to criticize too. Goes to show how corrupted religion is in the US, and let me tell u its gotten worse over the years--hence why lesserafim can continue doing this bc most people that like them here hate religions of all kinds in general
The very mention of "double standards" as a gotcha moment is often the mark of a blindness for nuance and context. As if the same standards should mindlessly be applied to everything, everywhere, everytime. Different situations -> different outcomes.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into such a well written comment! Although I´m an atheist, I was born in an orthodox country and raised in a catholic country. I was dying inside when reading some of these comments where people were talking as if Christians are some persecuted minority who are not given the voice to defend themselves. Christians are at the top of the hierarchy when it comes to religions, at least in the west. If they found this stuff offensive, they would definitively make themselves heard, specially in a conservative country like South Korea. The reason there is no backlash is because, again, they are at the top of the hierarchy. Why would they be bothered by such a thing?
I don't want to offend you or anyone reading this comment. I found this analysis interesting but I believe that you are viewing this subject from only one lens (the Christian lens) when Christianity not only encompasses religion but also history and everyone is allowed to have a perspective on it. I will admit that I am not religious but I have read the Bible and I try to be very fair when judging. You cannot deny the destruction and repression Christianity has caused and still causes in some regions of this world for particular groups of people (women, gays, POC). There is another viewpoint to this, in which you can regard religion as man-made (literally MAN-made, with the role of the woman being subordinate). I have always interpreted le sserafim's concepts to be about that, especially with the mention of Eve, who is often regarded as an image of female corruption. An image perpetuated by men accusing women of having some evil power over them. The same theme becomes apparent when you talk about some angels leaving the realm of God to "be with women". It's a male perspective through and through. The Bible is a reflection of the time period in which it was written. Here is where Christians often have a problem and proclaim that the Bible was dictated by God and merely written down by men, making it a holy relic. My problem with this is that this is a religious interpretation of a historical document. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and it allows people to criticize and interpret your faith in ways that you may not see fit. Yes, the Bible is an integral part of the Christian faith, but you cannot gatekeep it. I'm sure you are aware why Islam is not used as a theme, with instances like the Charlie Hebdo attack or Salman Rushdie's Japanese translator being killed over merely translating the Satanic Verses (even Salman Rushdie himself was once again under attack just a short while ago). What I'm trying to say is that it is not an insult to Christians that media dares to use Christian themes. It's a testament to the societies in which Christianity is the predominant culture. It's good that people don't have to fear for their lives when they reference the Bible in an unflattering/critical way. Unfortunately, videos like these are also a testament to the one thing Christianity thrives on the most: victimhood in the face of a perceived enemy. The tendency of Christians to engage in borderline martyrdom for the sake of demonstrating how much they suffer as a show of unwavering faith is a red thread through time. That's where I personally would categorize your perception of K-Pop "mocking" your religion when all that really happened was stories from the Bible undergoing a different interpretation than you like. Once again, I am not saying this to offend you or anyone who might still be reading at this point. It's more meant for your self-reflection.
Hello, Chirstian Catholic here (From West Europe) I agree a lot with your points but also think it can be applied to monotheistic religion as a hole. It's not really a Christian only tjink (being created by men, used by them to dismissed and lower women's right and ability to voice their opinion). Also, the issue is not really to criticize Christianity (Charlie Hebdo is a French journal known for that with sitire and humorous drawings, pedophilia and other SA, and the wealth the Vatican was able to gather during centuries when the crhist wanted to live in poverty, how it was used during colonisation to justify it and applied there, the sectarism and close mindset you often find, how they exhibit savior syndrom in less developed country...) Honestly, Christianity is often criticize where i live and i tjink it's an important part to improve, better it self. The culture (pop/mass/classical) often mock religious people (often Christian since it was for a long time the majority by a miles). But, the issue lies with the fact it's often the only religion - at least where i'm from, since a lot of past christian country have freedom of speech.
@@cappuccinobean2442 I'm not going to be efficient in my answer and I apologize for that. Please do not mind the grammar mistake it's quite late and I'm sleepy. It's alright you're very respectful and quite kind. Thank you 😊 I think k-pop disrespect Christianity or to be more more precise is not mindful of the religion. But they are not the only one. Christianity is often used as a divertissement. This is a kind of disrespect. Previously I talked about pop culture in some counties in Europe (it may apply to the west in general) where cultures used by people dismissed religion or used them for tropes. In an horror movie, you're going to see a priest who performs an exorcism, you're going to see a nun, there are going to use the mental picture of the devil. It's worse when it's for p*rn... Or even sexy cosplay. It's the same in east Asia, more specifically in Korea, but also Japan where priests and nuns are used as tropes, in manga, webtoon, drama but also music- K-pop in our case. I find LSF concept a little bit disrespectful but it's not like it's an insult. There is a degree to disrespect and what LSF is still quite mild. What's bothering some folks is when people do not recognize it can be insensitive to Christian or religious people as a whole. We're seen as cry baby. But I think debating how we perceive and use our religion in our culture and how others can do the same but differently create a new perspective on the religion. But also how some christians don't see the world the same. For example, the mega church and the modern church looking like stores in the USA are quite shoking to me, more than what LSF did. here I'm from, even though money is always in the discussion, we want our church to represent values or symbols. Cathedral are in the form of a Cross from above, the huge glass vitrail are a representation of the light, enlightenment and spiritual elevation. It must be pretty, it's because God made the world pretty with a lot of details. Nature is a lot of details. And details can be symbols. It's not supposed to be a divertissement, a spectacle. But it is a different interpretation. To each their own, I guess But you're right, we're using a different religion in the cultures and we don't see them complain. I think it's for two main reasons : 1. They are not a part of a huge group of people powerful enough to be heard :( 2. They don't see it as disrespectful. There is maybe a point to make here, maybe it's about the line between cultural appropriation and appreciation. (I'm not using these terms to downplay what POC have endured and how they want to protect, preserve and use their culture) We don't draw the line in the sand place, some are going to be really encouraging of people trying part of their culture (it could be religion, clothing, food or music) and some want their culture to be left alone. I'm sorry if it's confusing, I'm not sure how to articulate my point here. May you understand what gibberish I was trying to explain. I'll come back later to deepen my own opinion and share it with you if you still agree with that :)
I'm agnostic, ex Christian. I can't speak for the girls or how deep their level of faith is, but in general the problem is that at the end of the day religion is an ideology. One thing is to respect the believers and let them practice their religion, which is a human right, another thing is to respect religion itself. The key is criticizing ALL religions and not just one. Getting angry at just people disrespecting Islam and not people disrespecting Christianity is stupid, as you say, but personally I don't get angry at either. Questioning Satan's role in the Bible and whether he is actually the bad guy is not a new thing, people have been writing about it for ages. While the way Le Sserafim presents it is clearly only for the vibe and shallow reasons, the phylosophy behind it is serious and poses interesting questions about morality. Personally, I'm fine with these themes coming up in songs. Like I'm fine with critiques to ANY religion. In general, while I recognize that the way Le Sserafim does it is veeeery shallow, the oroginal phylosophycal message behind it is strong in its reasoning and to me Christians who are confident in their faith have no reason to get upset
@@MikiAweona374 They always confuse an attack on religion as an attack on all believers. They talk about "disrespecting religion" when in reality they don't want their core values to be questioned. But I think the fundamental ideas of Christianity about God and Lucifer are bs, am I not allowed to say it and explain why? Art exists also for this and SO many artists and writers have been persecuted in the past for "disrespecting religion"
@@lavistelle6031 I can understand why some christians could feel offended by this, but is seriously not that deep and is just a concept used to differentiate and sell a group in a very competitive industry
@@MikiAweona374 If they were doing caricatures of Christians then yes I would see the problem. But they aren't, the message is against the ideology, not against the believers
Christianity had been mocked and degraded for years, and nobody seems to get upset compared to if it was islam, Jewish ect ect. Thank you Cheryl as a Christian for being brave enough to say this. You've you gained a Subscriber. Edit: also cheryl are you Christian and if so, what group (baptist, catholic ect)
for Muslims, whenever we see someone who is mocking Islam in any kind of ways, we immediately stop supporting them, and if it was super disrespectful cancel them, they should understand that religions are very sensitive things, and for you guys should do the same as well for Christianity to stop these people from using your religion in a bad way
@@mirassama4604 i’m already just a casual listener of LSFM…by which I mean I like their debut and “Sour Grapes,” and I like “Antifragile” for the dance (the song itself is mid). But every release after just hasn’t done it for me. Won’t be too difficult for me to stop supporting them.
@@ivannaclassic2773 yall keep making this argument but it's just not the same. if a musical group from a primarily muslim country were to dance in a mosque i wouldn't question it because it's a representation of culture. that's why i don't think people need get all pissy when a group from a primarily christian country dance in a church. use some context before yall start acting like christians are oppressed lmao
Christianity is the most common religion in Korea. A lot of the people behind these concepts have personal experience with this religion and are allowed to express their feelings about it. Is art not supposed to be critical of society and the powers that be? Why do Christian expect non-Christians or ex-Christians to hold their religion with the same regard. Your video assumes that they are criticizing or using Christianity in a superficial way, not acknowledging the impact that Christianity and Korean churches have had on the country. Also, art that is critical does not necessarily mean it is disrespectful.
I hate this argument about this stuff being art… You can say it’s art but it’s not good art and it’s disrespectful… the community is telling you it’s disrespectful and you’re ignoring it. Which is funny cus the more I sit and think the more I realize that’s a common trait with alot of y’all kpop Stans. Y’all openly disrespect cultures and don’t care…
Glorifying evil doesn't bring goodness and mercy , humanity will be better off glorifying virtues instead of glorifying evils like pride, lust, envy, greed etc 😊
1. christianity is not the most common religion, buddhism is. most koreans consider themselves non-religious, so christians in korea are definitely a minority 2. a lot of people just use these religions as an aesthetic, and it is disrespectful. why do you think muslims get angry at blackpink for using ganesha, or hindus for using the bindi? because they have meaning, and these groups are using them as a fashion statement, disregarding their history. 3. art is critical, but art can also be disrespectful. just because it's labeled under "art" it doesn't get the automatic pass to not offend people. 4. she's not assuming, they ARE using it in a superficial way. if they weren't, either their lore would've remained consistent or they would've used other religious figures with the same theme indiscriminately, as their point is not the religion but the message. but they're not. 5. just as critical art is not always disrespectful, disrespectful art is not always critical. think about that
I may not agree with u all the time especially your recent short and subsequent (real) controversy, but as usual this is a video i actually really like. Well done on this; this is a very much needed video
Can I just say, as a Christian for my entire life, who has seen the downfall of media into this blatantly accepting society of mocking our faith and our beliefs, while hailing every other religion in the same breath, thank you so much for making this video. The issue runs so much deeper than kpop, but kpop is certainly not exempt. Again, thank you. It means so much to finally hear a voice of reason amidst this insanity.
Unrelated (I’m a Christian and I agree with you so much) but I am so grateful as a deaf person for how you includes captions in your videos. Thank you so much.
Not the 2 commenters assuming you're a Muslim because of your name😂. All religions don't deserve respect by default and immediacy. There's no such a thing as "disrespecting" religions because most religious people call those who don't bend over their beliefs "disrespectful and blasphemous"
I'll be honest: I didn’t even notice that they were dancing in a church in the mv, but then again, I only watched it once because I didn’t like the song. But I agree with what you have said and appreciate that you said it.
@@park_suhong as christian, I got into kpop because of funny memes and videos, but than I clicted to one video explaining what we should be careful about while listening to kpop. For exeamle: magic, lust, fallen angels and devil's signs. I was so shocked when I saw that alot of songs (almost every one ) have something demonic so I stopped to listen to it all. ( christian kpop is so safe and I tottaly reccomend it.)
Those aren’t Indian mosques 💀 those are how all mosques should preferably look like but a lot of countries banned minarets for no reason. In no way does the design of the mosque in the nct u MV represent india. It represents Islam. Islam had prophets sent to all the lands, not just Arabia.
I mean personally as a non-religious person I won't bat my eye when any religion is disrespected, christianity or other, I'm not really a fan of any type of religion.
as we should. All religions are the same to me, they just have different books and rules and regulations that are different depending on the cultural significance it represents but also lead to the same path just in different ways.
So, because you're Not Religious, it's okay to disrespect other people's faith, Just because YOU're not part of it? What Kind of thinking is that?? So, If you're hetero, it's okay to disrespect homosexuals, since it doesn't affect you either, or what??? By your Logic, that would apply to anything 🙄 absolutely ridiuculous! Just because you're Not Religious, doesn't mean it's okay to start mocking what other people quite literally put their Hearts into! Your comment is disgusting
It's a video about Christianity and that would no longer be the focus if she said anything about it. She didn't bring it up because it was simply not relevant.
Thank you for standing up for Christianity and explaining that any disrespect should, rightfully so be met with criticism. There so much more i want to say, but this is a great video to defend Christianity and us who take our beliefs very very seriously, yet love Kpop.
Personally, as an agnostic, I can see why people are offended about Le Sserafim's current comeback and visuals. I used to be Christian, and I know what all of these symbolisms mean, so I went 😬. I personally love their theme with six wings and six members, so when one wing suddenly fell so early when they were revealed, suddenly, the SSERAFIM fought back. That's what I believed the theme to be, but EASY is meh, and did not live up to deserve using imagery like this.
I respectfully disagree with this one. I think all artist has the right to challenge or even mock any religion until they go after the ideas and not the people. Of course you have the right to not watch / follow them. But to try to police them for a concept seems like the same sensitive overreaction which you criticized before.
Exactly, and, while we really can't say if it's the case for Le Sserafim or anyone really, many people have trauma related to religion and they are allowed to express it. Art has the right be controversial and challenge the ideologies. The video and song were never against Christians, only against Christianity. If your ideology is so weak that it crumbles at the first criticism, then you have bigger problems
I'm really not agree with this cause religion is not something that you could separate with people so with intention or not in the end you re gonna attack people too
If it was islam religion they were using for their "lore" or using for their "art" then many more people will be kicking off. It's just double standards
@@ana-xx6tnin some specific case this might be true - in my country I see many example of this towards Jewish people. But I think there is a significant difference: usually in those cases the focus on the people not actually their religion. If a K-POP group would go after anyone who is baptized I would understand the outrage.
I don't hate the seraphim concept but the crown of thorns is taking it too far... They should at least apologize for it. I wonder if there was any backslash in Korea. They could have taken the concept into other directions, like making some of the members the prideful or rebellious ones and others the responsible part of the angel (as all members are supposed to be one entity).
@@vivid_blossoms mockery of religion. it is the same disrespect (some people would say) as the Blackpink how you like that mv mockery of the Hindu god. Disrespect towards anyone should not be tolerated. Apologies should be issued
@@nimitsu_ but don’t you think they didn’t realize that people would get triggered when they were planning the MV? I think if it was purely accidental, then an apology would be warranted, otherwise it’s fake
@@vivid_blossoms I don't know whether they knew it would be disrespectful to put this in the MV. What needs to be done is that the directors or whoever plans the mvs needs to stop using the portrayal of the devil in Christianity as an aesthetic and a good thing, as that is disrespectful. An apology isn't really that necessary, it's just a sign that the MV team acknowledge their triggering actions towards religion and will not do the same in the future.
"they should apologize for it" they literally have a song called unforgiven. this is all meant to cause controversy because that's their concept. i need yall to think a little harder next time ok
I disagree with the message of this video. 1. I would humbly suggest that attacking the church leaders/communities in Korea for allowing their buildings to be used that way is out of line. There are vastly different standards between communities. One should not impose ones own view on what is considered acceptable on other christian communities, especially when it comes to things like art or behaviours. After all, Romans 14 is quite clear that it is God who will judge which act is against his standards in the end, not humans. "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." 2. In the past, artists and scientists have been prevented from realizing their vision or publishing their science beause it would "offend religion" (or more accurately, religious believers). Even today, the science of evolution is under attack in several democracies by Christian extremists. This is not to say that you are doing the same thing here - in fact you call for forgiveness if somebody offends - but in my experience, when religion starts to get offended and tries to impose values on others, forgiveness very rarely is the end result in practice. 3. Standards on what is "acceptable" have varied a lot over the course of human history and to definitely say that "X is against religion" is a bit of a funny point of view when it comes to the relation between religion and art. Consider the back and forth between iconoclasts and iconophiles. In fact there is visible evidence in very old churches on how art and acceptance of art changed drastically. Were those who believed artwork of Jesus was heresy lesser believers than those who loved the idea of a sistine chapel or a huge golden icon? Or did the standards of the time evolve, much in the same way christianity evolved over the course of its creation and reformation over the millenia? I submit it is the latter. 4. Art is supposed to be provocative. Let us not be like today's snowflakes who are offended by things like the statue of David being nude or that some artists depict the Madonna as having an exposed breast. Art is supposed to push boundaries. I would rather encourage a young mind to experiment and grow instead of stifling artistic expressions in the name of religion, especially when that religion clearly cannot agree on common standards for what is acceptable or not or changes those standards by the decade or century (while everybody is convinced their own standards are absolute in this regard). 5. The way they act clearly has a thought-out concept behind it that engages and plays with religious ideas. This suggests that - whoever is behind the concept - is at the very least somebody who has read about the stories and who engages with them on some level. Do you also think Salman Rushdie should apologize for writing the Satanic Verses because it offended believers of his religion? (and no I don't think you believe he should be killed or persecuted). I am quite frankly unsure what you want of them. To be aware? I submit they are. To apologize for hurting the feelings of christians? Weren't you of the mindset that people should not engage in snowflake behaviour if somebody else who is within his legal rights to do something? 6. Maybe Christianity is the most disrespected religion in the whole world. So what? Does that diminish your faith? It sure does not diminish mine. I for one am glad that we no longer have the days where Christianity was respected and such respect was enforced by law, fire and the sword. If the price to pay to live in a modern society is that some artist might make fun of my religion, then that is a price that I will gladly pay, especially since nobody can force me to watch or give money to said artist. Hmmm I hope this wasn't too rambling and feel free to disagree with all my points. After all, freedom of expression and all that xD.
thank you so much for being a realistic christian. but you’re preaching to the choir, this person will never care about this take nor consider it because unfortunately someone like this got lost a long time ago. it always fulfills my soul to meet a very realistic religious person though
Point 1: I have to strongly disagree with this paragraph. First off, using the word "attack" is wrong on so many levels. I said that as believer we should call out church leaders when they do something that is clearly against the word of God, accountability and attacking are not the same thing, so "humbly" listen to what I said and do not put words in my mouth. As for your quoting of Romans 14, I am annoyed that you even believe this counts as an scripture to interpret this situation. One of Paul's biggest responsibilities in his ministry was to help transition Christians from a life of following the law of Moses to submitting themselves to grace. In this scripture, his focus is alert the church that focusing on such minuet details such as what a person believes they should eat or drink is not a good enough reason to isolate someone from the gatherings. The Holy Spirit is responsible for convicting the person and God will deal with them accordingly. Even Peter was still stuck on tradition when he had the vision of the blanket that fell from heaven with all kinds of animals and the Lord told him to eat. This was a struggle with the early church and that was Paul was addressing. Minuet details about what to eat or wear, or whether to kneel when praying or standing up are not the same as taking a place that is dedicated to God as a house of prayer and letting a group that clearly has no respect for God or Christianity to perform in. Jesus literally cast out money changers from a temple with a whip and stated "It is written; My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves" Using a "difference of communities" as an argument to not speak up is insane because the only standard that decides whether that is wrong or not for every Christian no matter the country is God's Word. That opinion doesn't hold water to me, I'd have to disagree strongly on that one. 2. Point out a part in this video where I said Christianity is beyond criticism and I'll apologize. Yes, there are times Christianity has been used to oppress free speech, I've studied enough history to not deny it, but it is not every Christian individual's fault which makes it irrelevant in this context, why should take that in consideration when I am not doing the same thing? For you to use an argument so many non-believers use to try and gaslight us into silence when we call out clear disrespect of our faith is telling and not in the best way. 3. I understand art evolving, I understand times changing, I understand freedom of expression through art changing, but I believe there is something that doesn't change, and that is God's Word. That is my standard for criticism, not the worldly standards of what has become acceptable over time, and what hasn't. It is not the world Le sserafim disrespected, it is God, therefore I uses His standards to determine whether this form of expression of Art is disrespectful to Him or not. It's not about me, you, history, evolution of art or my feelings, its about Him and what He expects which he mentions clearly through His word. Again, in my opinion, this point is irrelevant because the world's evolution in art doesn't matter in this context. 4. "Art is supposed to be provocative. Let us not be like today's snowflakes who are offended by things like the statue of David being nude or that some artists depict the Madonna as having an exposed breast." Again I agree with this statement in solation, but this is not David, he is human, like you and me. David is not God. Le sserafim's concept is centered around rebellion against God, not some biblical character, God Himself. Pushing boundaries and questioning the norm is not the same as literally breaking those boundaries because I know as well as you do, these boundaries would never be pushed with any other religion. When Le sserafim get brave enough to do that with Islam, you can talk to me. 5. Point out a timestamp where I asked anything of Le sserafim, and again, I will apologize. I addressed two sets of people, non-Christians and Christians. Even towards the end I clearly stated that this was for those who believed as Christians we have no basis to be upset by what was done, I asked that Christians be given the room to speak out because we deserve that space, and as I can see from the comment section, I achieved that goal, then I addressed Christians to remember to forgive as we are commanded to do and to move on however to see fit whether it included unstanning the group or not. I never asked Le sserafim for anything, nor did I state what I expect from them personally, I only addressed the issue of bearing responsibility but again that was for k-pop stans and how the distribute responsibility and the hypothetical situation of the Korean members being Christians. As for Salman Rushdie, he did what he did, and you are right, I don't believe that he should be killed but my issue is acting as if people cannot criticize what he did. Again I do not engage in "snowflake" behavior but there is a difference between the lack of willingness to handle difference of opinion and throwing a tantrum every time things do not go your way versus speaking up again disrespect against a being you believe to be the divine and the source of life and morality. Calling someone who won't accept disrespect to their faith a "snowflake" is to lose meaning of that word entirely. 6. "Maybe Christianity is the most disrespected religion in the whole world. So what?" My reasoning was always that non-believers wouldn't allow this for any other religion. They go up in arms for them, come up with names to call people, and viciously attack anyone who thinks disrespecting religions is okay but that is not applied to Christianity. The term for that is "double standards" and again, it is perfectly within my rights to call it out. You can appreciate living in a world where Christianity isn't used as an iron fist to control people, but that doesn't mean that you swing to the other side of the pendulum and tolerate disrespect. And the fact that you even think I should "gladly pay the price of some artist making fun of my religion" as you put it to show I am not a a snowflake is one hell of an asinine point to make. I am choosing to go with Romans 12:2, I will not conform just because that is what the world thinks I should do. If something is not okay, like everything else on my channel, I'll speak up against it, and no amount of calling me a "snowflake" is going to change that.
Point 1: His word might not change, what we Humans do with it and how we worship and what we tolerate sure does however. For example, it has been long-standing tradition among churches, including the one I attend, to be a center of a community and to allow artists to perform. My own church choir regularly performs with artists inside the church. We sing all kind of music - Mozart, Verdi, Mendelson. We also work with singers from outside for the more challenging solo parts (which we do not ask about religion before engaging them). A church is a house of prayer, first and foremost, yes. However, it is not exclusively that and we humans have treated it as a place of refuge, a fortification, a museum, a hospital and as a place of artistic performances in the past. Point 2: We live in societies where (ideally) there is a freedom of expression. That means religion has no right to influence art or science or enact prohibtions on it. Do you agree with these fundamental human rights? Point 3&4: HIS words do not change. What we humans think of it and what actions we interpret as being disrespectful to god however does. The depiction of "The Creation of Adam" would have been seens as being disrespectful and heresy and forbidden only a few centuries before its creation. Likewise, you are applying your interpretation and the interpretations of other humans. So was Michaelangelo a heretic worse than Le Sserafim? If you ask an iconoclast (or any member following an iconoclastic sect of Christianity today) then yes, he very much was. Ask the same question of a person of the 15th century and the answer is "no." Ask a radical protestant in the 16th century and the answer is "yes" again. And if you had the hypothetical change to ask a christian from the 25th century about what he considered not to be a disrespect to god then that answer might shock you. People revered as Saints today have had very much differing opinions on what constitutes disrespect to god, ranging from depicting him being highly disrespectful to even believing god would be honored by an artistic dialogue. Heck, one of the bishops of Alexandria (and I assume you know the significance of that pentarchic seat) even thought there was nothing wrong between believing in Neoplatonism and God at the same time. Do you presume you know better than all of them? Do you presume to know the intention of God that specifically that you know this performance offends him? Do you know wether Le Sserafim or alll those people mentioned are in his grace or not? No christian can know those things for certain. We are all guessing. Point 5&6: I don't get this whataboutism about Islam. I have defended the right of people to publish caricatures of Mohammed before and I think radical Islam is a real threat to modern values and to democracy. But what Le Sserafim does ranks as very low on the "disrespect to Christians scale" given what is going on in many parts of the wrold right now. Especially because I have not even seen somebody yet to conclusively prove that the intent here is to disrespect Christianity. I see an artistic engagement with religion and its rules, something that has happened an incalculable amount of times in human history. The main differnce to me is between thinking something is done in bad taste or to perceive it as an insult and the consequences of that. We humans are amazing at picking what part of the bible we observe and which ones we chose to disregard and those standards differ heavily from century to century as humans evolve. Extramaritial sex, what to eat, what holy days to observe in what manner have all been changed over the centuries. You yourself are picking and choosing what to believe and what not, or do you take everything in the bible literally? Do you, for example, believe Homosexuality is a sin? That extramarital sex is a sin? The core issue is how you define what disrespects God and his laws. That is why I used Romans 14, which you then said were minor details. However other christians might think different about observing dietary laws or the Sabbath. So I would suggest not throwing a stone here.
you thought you were so clever here, LOL... the reason she didn't go in detail was so people wouldn't bring up her stance, because it is not relevant to the video
THANK YOU!! As a Catholic, I genuinely cannot stand kpop fans because of the hypocrisy and flat out bigotry when it comes to Christianity being mocked and disrespected. I genuinely felt like i've been treated subhuman by a LOT of kpop fans ( and music fans, or even just atheists in general ) all because i'm Christian and they don't like that for whatever reason. And it's funny to me how when it comes to generalizing another other group or community ( religious or otherwise ), how quick are these same people to jump right in and attack you.... but when it's Christians, suddenly it's crickets? Soooo you can paint me as something i'm not, whether it be a stereotype or false accusation.... but heaven forbid I do the same to you. Cannot stand the hypocrisy, atp I wouldn't be surprised if more Christians starting speaking up more aggressively about how unfair and poorly we get treated on a day to day basis, simply for existing.
I am Muslim, when I first saw the music video of Easy I didn't like how they used holy a place of other religion to dance and film, and I never watched it again. I would be disappointed if they did the same thing with my religion. And I didn't listen to the song either because I had problems with the usage of autotune. when I first saw the lyrics of Eve, Psyche, and BB's wife, I didn't like it, but the song got me since it was overplayed everywhere. But this video literally opened my eyes. I don't think I will be listening to their title tracks again. (except Antifragile) and listen to a couple of B-sides only. I don't want any religion to be disrespected just for the concept of group. thank you for the video.
Why do y’all always have to look at things and assume someone is against or trying to play a bad narrative. I’m not a Christian but I grew up going to church and only stopped because well life is hard and you need money to live. So anyways, it was supposed to be 6 memebers in this group right? They represented 6 wings. One thing being broken or ruined can cause chaos. Garam is that broken wing that left that ended up causing chaos. With Fearless they could have been just trying to tell a story. I personally think that the story they are telling now with Unforgiven and even Antifragile represent humans in every day life. We constantly go against god and we are sinners. We rebel against him and say we aren’t believers. Don’t start a hate train over one video y’all.
she stated in the video that Christianity isn't the only thing that le sserafim's music symbolizes. its just the use of religious symbols that come off as offensive. like the bp mv that had a scene deleted bc of a Hindu god on the floor, the mv wasn't focused on degrading the god, but it was the fact that they used that kind of symbolism to represent that. or NCT's mv close to the mosque. Islam wasn't what NCT was going for, but it was the fact that they were using it as symbolism for something else. le sserafim's music def represents many things, but using highly sacred religious symbols is definitely not it. this isn't a hate train for le sserafim, but a wake-up call to christians who blatantly deny and tolerate such mockery of Christianity. all the things you have said are being disproved in the video. just because this video accidentally caused a hate train doesn't mean that this was the intent. Cheryl literally said at the end of the video to "forgive and move on", forgive being the KEY word here. art is what you interpret it to be, but that doesn't mean its an objective truth. there are many objective truths in the world, but interpretation is def not one of them. to christians, what le sserafim did was, in one way artistic expression, and in the other way, artistic expression using sacred symbols of religion that should never be used in vain.
@@loopy-q1h True and just like you said about Cheryl’s video they probably aren’t even trying to mock Christianity. That might not be the intention but that is how some people are taking it as. Not everyone is just going to ‘forgive and move on’ because of the fact that people interpret things differently. They could just be trying to tell a story though and there’s nothing wrong with doing that to bring light to how we are in every day life because their lyrics, the videos, everything they depict in those mvs are how we are as humans. We should stop judging everything how we see it because we don’t have eyes of god. We should look at things like this in a deeper way if we really care so deeply about it.
@@jazzyedwards3871 i think ur still forgetting the fact that le sserafim's music videos always include at least one biblical symbol. the fact still remains that le sserafim is using god's name in vain, representing sinful desires with a holy symbol. either way, religion isn't to be taken lightly, and le sserafim did that. the meaning can be debated a million different ways, but that doesn't negate the fact that le sserafim offended Christians by misusing and "dirtying" their sacred symbols
This video has a huge HUGE blind spot, which is disappointing given how many videos you make stressing the importance of context. Specifically, the really significant role Christianity had played in Korean culture. It’s not just a popular religion there, it was also something that got heavily intertwined with resistance against Japanese occupation. It’s also something that’s associated with intellectuals in Korea, and intellectuals (who are devout Christians!) using Christian imagery in provocative ways is a practice literally older than the consolidation of the Bible itself. Not saying the creative director of Le Sserafim is the next Margery of Kempe or Boethius or the writer of Revelation or whatever. But I also think god and people’s faith in god should be strong enough to withstand a little pg-13 imagery and idols playing pretend (and I think this about all religions too btw).
Your point does not make sense, christianity is a popular religion in Korea, but if anything that makes it worse. Of course people can use the image of christianity however they please, but when this happens it should be acceptable to critique it, much like we see with Hindu and Islam. Le Sserafim can do an angels and demons concept fine, but Christians are allowed to be upset by that.
Who isn’t allowing Christians to be upset? Some Christians are upset, other people (including other Christians) are not. Sometimes the latter group are clearly just defending their faves no matter what, but there are others who are aware of the long history of Christians using the biblical imagery in art. And everyone is “allowed” to say these things because that’s how we learn from each other. Conversation isn’t just someone preaching to someone. It’s shocking I know, but sometimes people will say things, and other people will disagree with them. Someone disagreeing with you isn’t making it illegal for you to say that you find the video disrespectful. You disagreeing with me isn’t preventing me from sharing my opinion.
@@alicey-m6y literally all the people saying that it’s not a big deal and Christian’s need to get over it. Literally all the people excusing it and not treating it the same as other religions. You know the whole reason the video was made in the first place Also I literally don’t know why you are acting like I said people don’t get an opinion just that actions have consequences and that an acceptable consequence for using religious imagery opens you up to criticism on the basis of religion. Once again Le Sheraton can do what they want but people have a right to be upset by that.
this is shocking 😲 I'm not a big fan of lessera so I wasn't aware that their lore and concept were THIS DEEP rooted into religion, it's not just them having a MV in a church, their whole storyline and meaning behind are messed up 😮 hybe/source are wild
precisely. this is different bc in america christians are wayyy more lax vs in her country. she has the right to criticize and not support and i think her bringing this up is a really good for discussion. But I will say since she's not american i can understand why shes confused and should simply withdraw support in the end with lesserafim since this is their concept being greenlit in america
I think that for a lot of believers it goes a little beyond just the church case as she pointed out in this video, but I don't mean no hate towards the lsf girls whatsoever
@@lavistelle6031 a religion isn't an ideology, the definition is literally "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods" or "a particular system of faith and worship". A religion doesn't apply well to a concept or even a "esthetisation". We can define it, not conceptualize it. Maybe if your English is good, take a look at the works of Emile Durkheim or Max Lynn Stackhouse:)
@@gaellelm6678 Why doesn't it apply well to concepts? Religion has been represented in art for as long as humans have existed. Is it only a problem when the art is criticizing the religion and not worshipping the God? What about songs like "Take me to Church" by Hozier then? Also, religion is not just believing in God, it's also following his moral code and agreeing with his ideas. If you are a religious you see the moral code and ideas as something sacred that cannot be questioned, but the non religious people don't see them as sacred and can and WILL criticize it. Saying "no you can't do that" is censorship. The idea behind Le Sserafim concept was the idea that Satan was right in rebelling against God. Why can't this be a concept? Why is it wrong? Explain it, explain why it's disrespectful
@@lavistelle6031 maybe it's my bad, but since you had written 'concept' without an 's' a thought you talk about the idea of a religion, not an "concept in art". And yes art always had taked inspiration from religion, some work were also super critical of religions, but except in philosophy, most of these critics were towards the practice of the religion, not the religion itself. Well, even here your example with Hozier don't work the same than in le serafim case, since it's not an attack on Christianity as a all ( in its essence, Hozier don't put in question the concept/idea of a religion and its core) but some practices of the believers which exceed from the core/canon of the religion ( so here the bullying of gays, even killing committed by Christians on the community), thus its not attacking the representation of god (directly at least). So it's very different from le sserafim which mock the core of the religion ( so mocking the sacrifice of Jesus by wearing crowns, sacrifice which is the most essential part of the system of belief for Christian). Once again, if you're interested in the topic of religion (and it's definition) please look after the two names I already give you. P.s : no need to be this aggressive, it's just a comment section. Have a good day or night :)
@@gaellelm6678Sorry if I sounded aggressive, not my intention. Idon't agree on Hozier. What you say is the mv, but the lyrics is an attack on some of the fundamental ideas of Christianity like "being born sick", "only then I'm human, only then I'm clean" and "shrine of your lies" and so on. It's all stuff that seems pretty crucial to me when I think about Christianity. To the point that it was called blasphemy at the time (at least in my country) when it came out. As for Le Sserafim, I agree they are attacking the core values, but here's the question: can't those values be criticized? I have seen many people making compelling arguments against the idea of God being benevolent and in favor of the idea of Satan being right in challenging a God like that. These are all valid ideas made with reasons and not just to hate. So behind Le Sserafim's video there isn't just hate, there are arguments that intelligent people have been making for a very long time. Art should be allowed to represent this and I don't see why Christians get angry instead or engaging in a discussion
Im back after i read about hybes alleged cult associations specifically, Dahn World... Now wtf and why now would it make sense as to why leserafim story/plot is as is.. All alleged tho
You make great points and I appreciate you sharing this perspective. I have definitely noticed the social rules are skewed for Christians and have pondered why myself on occasion. I think I may have a better idea after watching your video. Tbh, I sometimes forget that Christians who are offended by things like this aren't amalgamous to the ones who are forcing their beliefs to be law in my government (where it, as a foundational tenant of said government, doesn't belong). Worldwide media is heavily influenced by American sentiments. In America, Christian ideals are something that are a battle to keep in the Church/at home/a personal thing. It's so severe that we (and as a side effect, the rest of the world) actively suppress super valid voices like yours. It's totally "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" behavior. It's really crappy that all this American separation of church and state drama affects the whole Christian world. Y'all have a right to not see k-pop stars cosplaying as your savior. That's a reasonable grievance. I did not know they did that until now. That's a bit too spicy even for me, a "Christmas is my favorite holiday but my family hasn't gone to Church since I was 5 and why tf do we say 'Under God' when we salute the flag?!" type of person. I think videos like this will help people do better. Good job.
The problem with this backlash is, its not driven by people sincere belief in their faith but by the parasocial obssesion with kpop and using it to fight against a group who is doing better than their favourite group. Their is a reason the middle east is always in conflict, their devotion to their faith often drives them to violence. Most ideologies have moved away from this method as means to push back againt blasphemy. The so called Christians going on over this has probably ignored every other time their faith was disrespected because its not Christianity that was disrespected but their actual religion, which is whatever group they support that LSF is more successful than.
"The only religion k-pop can disrespect". K-pop have been disrespecting a lot of religions in the past few years, mostly Muslim while dancing and recording sexy concept videos in front of them, also a few times using the Torah. Only a few times, when it was loud enough, had some kind of "sorry letter". As for the "Some African countries punish by death when someone is holding a bible". It is leaving the part where ANY religion that is worshiped who isn't the one that matter (usually Abrahamic) is punishable by death. This kind of argument leads the listener into believing that only Christianity is persecuted in those countries, which is not true at all. Now, the use of Christianity as a mockery is really sad, and in the end is said that shouldn't have mockery to any religion. Luciferianism and other satanist religions (atheist, anti-cosmic, cosmic and other ramifications) are religions too (and not the same). Still some religions that work with demons as Astaroth, Paimon, Asmodeus, Sytry and many others. Some of these ramifications even believe that the Biblical God is the bad guy and the Demiurge. If there was a group of K-pop mocking the devil and spreading its own religion, would have this same level of comotion? Would have been claimed respect or people would "battle" against it? Why one is ok, and other one is not? Not just mentioning the Greek Gods, the helenics exists to this day, and their gods and religion deserves respect too. It's getting as fictional and adapted, used as concepts and representations in K-pop and outside of it. Damn, not even 2 months ago was used as representation. Why the helenics doesn't have the same level of treatment and questions too? Their religion is still alive, people pray to Poseidon and other gods even today. Even in the Eve, Psyche and Bluebeard's wife, only mentioned the christian religion and no the other one, if you used the same argument for Eve, it's used the same for Psyche and Bluebeard's wife too, and didn't said it was disrepecting their religions. Even when have reference to Pandora's box, you keep silent, to sustain the argument of only christianity is being disrespect when this group could've disrespect other mythologies by your standart? It seems like a double standard. The arguments in this video (just as its title) manipulate the viewer into believing that only Christianity is persecuted as If Le Sserafim only affected christianity. I don't care about any religion and I don't like any of them at all, but it's kind of strange and make me question a lot of things.
I didn't think the video made it seem as if only Christianity was affected, I believe it was more focused on Christianity as it is the religion she can speak more properly about and as well bc it's the religion that is more present on lsf concept itself, it doesn't ignore other examples. And other than that I believe most people know it's not the first nor the last time of a religion being used for conceptual stuff, but the discussions on where to draw the respectful line I still believe are worth having.
@@tessie4698 "I don't think the video made it seem as only christianity was sffected." The literal title: "The only religion k-pop can disrespect". Hidden information. "It doesn't ignore other examples" while in the eve, psyche and bluebeard's wife there's two more religions that are practiced 'til this day. I respect your opinion, but with the base of what was said and double standards, I completely disagree.
I don't think it's all that deep tbh with the disrespect and 'glorification'. Some people may feel that way and that's understandable.We're humans, we have opinions. I just think it's a cool concept with little nods to the whole unforgiven, fallen angel idea. I'm Christian, I'm not offended, It's just a concept.
"It's not that deep" to you. TO YOU. for Christians it is that deep, thats kind of the point. A group can have whatever concept they like but when it comes to religion and it gets disrespectful people are well within their right to push back on that.
Love this video, the double standard is frustrating. It’s crazy the things people feel they are able to do with symbols of Christianity but wouldn’t even think of doing from other religions.
I do believe in God, my responsibility is a believer is to walk as Jesus walked. When He found money changers in the Temple, he drove them out and emphasized "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves" It is because I believe in God that I refuse to watch places of worship be turned into mockery for the world. I may not believe that symbolism saves me but when I have to speak up to defend my faith, I take on that responsibility, which I will be answerable to God for. I reverence him enough to do that.
@@Santia5a John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD" vs 14: "And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us" Jesus is God. What's the point of the second question? Like genuinely curious. Are you asking if I think they are wrong or?? I'm lost.
@@minutemoka once again.Jesus is NOT God. In Bible LGBTQ+ is a sin, in reality is normal . In Bible in*est is normal(Adam and Eve was only one people,who was created).In reality it's NOT normal.
I seriously hate the term "White man's religion" because it's so untrue but even if it was a white man's religion, that still doesn't mean you need to disrespect it like- wtf kind of excuse is that in the first place???
I honestly did not realise the level of symbolism they had adopted and I'm disappointed because I really did enjoy their music, but I don't think I'll see the group the same way. I think when it comes to Christianity, people just seem to brush these things off without understanding Christians are the minorities in a lot of countries and being so dismissive of what could hurt Christian sentiments is really detrimental in these parts. It really isn't that hard to be respectful of ALL religions
I think part of the problem is that a majority of atrocities committed by "Christians" in the past are viewed as significantly worse than those of many other faiths. What I don't like is people portraying this as if everyone who is Christian would support these awful deeds in the name of religion. It feels like people in general don't have the critical thinking skills needed to separate a small minority of religious extremists from the general population.
I don't know from who you are and so I don't know if your world view is different, because of different events. But out of my head I can not think about any attack that was because of Chrisianity in recent times, but I can think about some that had Islamic reasons behind it. I think socialy they had it more bad, like you just needed to look like one and boom you are a terrorist.
@@lucycarlay8547 That's a good point that I do agree with. They've definitely had it worse recently. I think part of the reason I personally think Christianity is viewed more negatively is simply because there are not a lot of Muslim people where I live. Plus, most of my friends and I are gay, so all of us have faced some sort of discrimination from religious extremists, who tend to be "Christian" where I live. I also live in America, so a large part of "Christians" in the media belong to a specific brand of religious extremism that is generally not well liked in my social circles. When I'm referring to atrocities, I'm largely referring to the whole structure of colonialism, which itself is inherently built off of a twisted version of the Christian faith. Looking at it from an objective lens, I think you're right. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment, it really means a lot to me.
@@lucycarlay8547 Outright recent attacks? No. But people (mostly in the US) pushing for laws to be passed based on their religious beliefs, that will impact people not of that faith? Absolutely. It doesn't have to be a terrorist attack to have an impact on others - and atrocities from the past can absolutely still have an impact in the present.
@@RSkies fair points. I am not from the US, so I don't really know that oh yeah, maybe I should have given some examples. And recent I times I think about the last 10 years 2015-2024. And I was thinking about the attack were people drove trucks in huge crowds in Europe. In france was a big one and in germany people got killed in a christmas market. Last year tried some this, but got stopped. Oh and the one french satire newspaper, who got attacked by facist Islamic people. But yeah, that is just what is stuck in my head, when thinking about religion. Maybe the difference, between Europe and the USA is also probaly because of the Mega churches. Btw I mostly mean the west of Europe the east is also different.
@@reveluvies2447 yeah, that is also a good point. I am from Germany and west Europe had mostly deathly attacks from the east Terrorist. So that what got me thinking and also 9/11. But I also could not tell you if exrtem christian have risen more. Far right yes. Oh and I also think that the east still has some religion conflicts about it. But do not count on me I am just saying it, and when it is wrong y'all can correct me.
i literally cannot thank you enough for this video. i recently unstanned them after their most recent comeback, but this video has opened my eyes and showed me that their disrespect to Christianity is MUCH deeper than just this past comeback.
also forgot to mention that christianity teaches homophobic and misogynistic values. no one wants to defend that. but I guess I gotta expect this video to be biased if it comes from a religious person
Personally, as someone who used to be Christian (though not Catholic), I don't think that Le Sserafim is really a big problem or mockery. They use mythology as a metaphor for society, and their ambition to break out of traditional oppressive systems, which I personally think is fine and can be interpreted in many different ways. While I do think that they (or any other group) should not be performing inside any house of prayer or actively use religious symbols out of their traditional context (like the Ganesha figure in hylt), I don't think their storyline is problematic in itself. There's worse out there. But maybe that's just on me being raised with the clear notion that many biblical stories are just that, stories. They are not meant to be taken literally, and they are not the core of the religion itself.
i understand and respect your stand, i think it’s not that deep, the concept i think nothing wrong with it and the mv being on a church is debatable but at the same time that place is used for filming so idk, but since im not the most religious person ever i will not speak on it, what i am annoyed with is with kpop stans bc they just used this to throw hate on them like we know not even half of them are christians so why tf are they speaking on it and being offended about it
As a Christian,I disagree with them using Christianity as lore, but im not too sure it was le sserafim's idea, so i don't think they should receive the criticism, the company should.
tw: alternative opinion that might make y'all mad Christianity has not just been used to harm people, the Bible itself has hundreds of verses that allow you to commit literal crimes for the sake of their god, and people have been following these commands for many centuries without "interpreting the Bible wrong". so no, I don't have any sympathy for Christians that are offended by others using their religion to create art. **no religion deserves the privilege to be offended, tbh.** I'm considered a terrorist in my country just because I'm queer, and that's the case for half the world, while you can only be persecuted for being Christian in a few countries
Tbh Christianity and Christian symbols are viewed differently because of their widespread use in all media and their loss of significant meaning as a result. Angels and demons are often portrayed across mediums, as are crosses, crown of thorns, etc etc. fallen angels are most especially commonly depicted in romance fantasies nowadays as well. The other religions mentioned in this video also have far more physical religious symbols as well as rules accompanying them. A Bible is sacred to Christianity, as is a depiction of Jesus Christ or God. Christians do not use idols or statues, so we place importance in a church, a place of worship. But an angel? Really? Four-year olds dress as angels for Halloween, and just as many wear devil headbands. They are not invoking demonic or heavenly forces. Beyond that, Christian religious symbolism, both subtle and not, are found across all forms of artistic expression and throughout the world. Eve participated in the first forbidden act that had ever occurred, which is why her name is in EPBW. It is a statement of fact. They listed famous female historical figures who are known for going to their DOWNFALL for desiring the forbidden. Being uncomfortable with the usage of Eve is valid, but looking at the rest of the lyrics it’s clear the song’s message goes out to ppl who are feeling trapped by other people’s ideals and wanting to break free; which is what’s forbidden. LSF’s concept is about breaking free of the bounds imposed by SOCIETY, not by god. To be free of fear, to believe you cannot be broken, and to move forward even if you aren’t loved or forgiven by your peers for your outspoken actions. In Unforgiven’s case, a ‘villain’ is someone who is not accepted by society but lives their life even hated by others. To believe this entire concept praises doing the forbidden against god is more than a leap, it’s ridiculous. You’re usually very good about drawing examples and checking everything, but this is such a biased take. And even if you don’t believe any single point I make, Christianity in and of itself is never shed in a negative light. The creative team uses symbolism that everyone knows and understands but it is not and was never meant to be negative of Christianity as a whole. There are other MVs with a clear intention of poising Christianity as an enemy, or religious faith as the enemy, but Easy is not one of them. There happened to be a church in that video. Okay you feel uncomfortable with churches in a video? Sure! That’s fine! But don’t make comparisons to other religions that are not remotely the same. They’re Abrahamic! Yes, but the origin of a religion and where it is today are both relevant. Churches are not considered sacred the same way Mosques are. The rites and process are wildly different. You should be talking about people who are actively seeking to deface Christianity. Easy is clearly not that. I’m disappointed.
I’m 100% gonna get hate for what I’m about to say but I will say it. Please read the whole entire comment before you angrily reply. Not all people have had good experiences when it comes to religion or Christianity, one of them being me. I have never disrespected Christians for their beliefs but my personal opinion on this religion is rocky, to say the least. Songs like Unforgiven make me feel understood, but not in the way you may assume. No, I do not believe in any form of ‘devil’ or satanism or any of that bs. However, it feels refreshing to hear a song that says ‘it’s okay not to be accepted by a certain community.’ I live in a small country in Europe where Christianity is pretty much everywhere. Just last week my sister came crying from school because her religion teacher (yes, religion is a subject here, it teaches orthodox Christianity) bullied her about the fact that she doesn’t go to church every week. I’m saying this because I want you guys to understand my context. Am I saying that all people have had a bad experience with Christianity? Absolutely not. Am I saying that there is no double standard when it comes to Christianity? No. Did le sserafim take it too far with the easy era? Yes. But I also think that if people are allowed to listen to songs that promote a certain religion (not just Christianity), I think people should also be allowed to listen to songs that may not be necessarily positive about a certain religion, feelings some may relate to. This has been said a million times but if you simply find a song or a mv not appropriate for you and your beliefs, don’t watch it/ listen to it. Feel free to disagree with me but try to be respectful if you want to reply to this comment.
Well made video, Cheryl. Thank you very much for this video. I'm so sick and tired of the disrespect of Christianity, and people think it alright too. And most importantly how Christians don't speak up about it and just allowed the disrespect. Anyways, thank you for the video it well made. Thanks for your hard work. May God continue to bless, protect and guide you and your family in Jesus name, Amen.
As an Atheist I can honestly say you ate that sis, I've definitely seen the double standard too. I think the main reason people use Christianity as a punching bag is because they feel its safe too tbh. Out of the 3 Abrahamic religions, one you can't even breath too hard not too with out people claiming you have hate in your heart, and the other might pull a Ava Max and take you head & your heart. (No shade ofc) Plus, at least coming from someone in the US, Christianity is our biggest religion here so the majority of people how left religion would be from there so that's probably another reason too. I just stopped myself from typing a tangent, but I wanna say that Christianity is important and it's honestly not fair to you all that you are not being taken seriously and that you are seemly not allowed to defend you own religion.
Even if it's still the case is rreally disrespectiful to the religions and if thats the case to the "stealled" religions too and that's it any faith shouldn't be disrespected
@@rivkeg7599 I hope you don't decorate a Christmas (Winter Solstice/Saturnalia) tree, or use stockings for gifts, or deck the halls with holly or mistletoe. Or decorate with eggs or bunnies at Easter (originally called Ostara by Pagans, and Ishtar, by the Assyrian and Babylonians). Christians have a rich history or conveniently placing their holidays around other faiths as a means of conversion and co-opting those traditions as their own.
Yeah, but it's most due assimilations through time. For example, a deity that defeat the death by ressurrecting after three days, who is it? Ishtar. Christianity is like a "baby" religion, is a newborn so it have been drinking from past religions that already existed. But even tho, as every religion, should've been respected.
@@RSkies you thought you had me but i actually don't do any of those things. but even if i did, it has been historically proven (by both Christian and non-religious historians, mind you) that all those "pagan" traditions actually really originated in early Christianity so... maybe do more research before commenting?
hi, love the video. i think it's pretty informative and adds a lot of context and commentary on the issue. but i do have a few points to make tho 1. le sserafim does have certain "biblical" references (i'll touch on these in my next point) and they do have a very rebellious concept, but do you believe these are inherently linked? iirc, they've never connected both of these themes of their concept. like yes, they do have some biblical references and rebellious themes in their name/concept/lyrics, but has it ever been explicitly or implicitly said that they're rebelling against the idea of Christianity or any sort of religion? 2. i don't think the whole "fallen angel" theme is inherently always a Christian ideology. all three Abrahamic religions reference Satan and the fallen angels, no? granted, i do believe Christianity has the most explanations and ties to the whole idea, but don't both Judaism and Islam have ties to that belief? iirc fallen angels were first described in the book of Enoch, which was written about in about 300 BCE? and such ideas have permeated through history and even has references in the Quran, which was written in the 7th century (although the whole concept of fallen angels is debated in Islam, iirc). you could even argue that the story of Icarus (which was written centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, although it's hard to properly date it) is a reference to the whole "fallen angel" thing. my point is, i don't think it's fair to say someone is attacking Christianity by using the fallen angel because it has ties to so many differnt religions and systems of beliefs. Plus, it's such a popular idea in modern culture; so i don't think using that motif is inherently a reference to Christianity. 3. the same thing i said about the fallen angel motif applies to the 'Seraph/Seraphim' name, because that also appears in other Abrahamic religions. It is mentioned in Judaism and in Islam, I believe it goes under an Arabic name. 4. I also don't believe Eve, Psyche and the Bluebeard's Wife is a dig at Christianity either. All three of those are stories referencing women who were punished/blamed for their curiosities/desires. Psyche is from Greek mythology and Bluebeard is from a French folktale. So the song isn't inherently anti-Christian. like I said, stories of the fallen angel and Adam and Eve are such huge ideas in modern culture, it's hard to say if referencing them is a reference to just the story or a reference to Christianity in itself. 5. you mentioned how Le Sserafim danced and filmed in a church. i'm sorry if i missed it, but i don't believe you mentioned how that would be offensive. was it something they did or is there something inherently wrong with dancing/filming in a church within Christian teachings? i don't mean any of what i said in a way to attack you or anyone else's views. you're all entitled to having whatever feeling you have on this topic. i think we can all agree that discussions on religion are very complex, so i just wrote what i wrote so we can further the discussion and understand all viewpoints (P.S. i do think the whole crown of thorns is probably their most problematic motif. iirc Kendrick Lamar also got a lot of backlash for wearing one on the cover for his album Mr. Morale and the Big Steppers)
the shayitan in Islam is not the same as the satan in Judaism and Christianity. He is not an angel in Islam. Icarus was not about angels or a reference to angel, but about flying to close to the sun bc Icarus did not listen to the instruction of father because he was sidetracked. This shares no foundation with Christian depiction of angels or heavenly beings. Eve was not punished for 'curiosity'. Such generalization misses the entire point and only add to the misconception and misunderstanding of Eve. Also imagine someone filming a kpop twerking video in a Buddhaist temple and see if you can understand the problem. It is an issue in the world, especially the west, to generalize and modge-podge things that are foreign to one's mind, but it would be most efficacious for you to consider why a certain people group would find content produced by a certain group and company to be disrespectful and unacceptable. Look up the symbolism, look up information provided by theologians, and the countless other resources available (that is not the book of Enoch).
kendrick lamar though... is an entirely different story bc in his case it symbolically represents the burden he holds by being held up as the savior of his community when he is a flawed person in his own right. in le sserafim it's different
Hi, i want to add my thoughts about that. To your first points: To me it seems LeSserafims concept is mainly about rebelling against social standards and restrictions in general, which is a very popular concept in Kpop anyway. They use Christian symbolism very much - mostly to a point where it comes to interpretation. (Like in the “Burn the Bridge” trailer where they burn a book which could - or could not - be a bible or religious text; To be (Un)forgiven is a huge topic in Christianity but can also be interpreted towards other social standards - like stepping on a table in a restaurant and dancing there which they do in the MV) However, since a religious topic - the fallen angel, is the root of their concept and name, the first thought that comes to mind is to interpret it in a religious way. I agree with you regarding “Eve, Psyche..” Here Eve is shown as one example of a woman rising against “oppressing” morals. I think it is meant as female empowerment. (Whether she is a good role model or not is debatable - Christians would disagree, I think). I am mostly okay with these types of using Christian symbolism in general. The “Easy” MV however rubbed me the wrong way, I didn’t like it. They replace Jesus with themselves several times (like with the “Pieta” image, the Thorns Crown, where I think a cross would be in a church, there is a LSF-Logo). Posing on an Altar with “cute” devil horns… all that sends the message “I don’t care for or respect what you believe to be holy” very loudly. At least they don't take it seriously. As for the church as a scenery, Jesus once threw merchants out of the temple and got very furious because they turned a place meant for worshipping god into a marketplace. I think it is comparable, they use it as a way to market their music/product. So, since I still like the music, I personally turned to the “Garage dance” Version of Easy, which I actually enjoy very much (Chaewon!).
This is clearly just haters of le sserafim fanning the flames using christianity.. thats why i became an athiest.. as a gay person i learned that christians can still be bad people you can go to church yet be hateful and talk behind other people back just for having the same beliefs.. so if you wanna call them out fine.. but do that to all of those who have done the same.. regardles if they are your faves or not..
They think as long as 'they let Jesus into their heart' and repent on their deathbed they'll get a free pass into some eternal paradise when they die. If you need a book as a moral guide, and only act 'good' for some eternal reward then youre not a good person.
Honestly as a Muslim i thought Christians just didn't care. Kpop and other art forms have been using religion for a longest time, however I've only ever seen muslims (and occasionally hindus) calling them out for it, the most infamous example being CL's use of the Quran in a song. The number of times I've seen people commenting that muslims are "too sensitive" is ridiculous. But religion and faith isn't something to be played around with. "Christianity is the one religiom kpop can disrespect" is inaccurate. Kpop and all art forms disrespect ALL religions. It's up to the people of these groups to voice their dissaproval. Change won't happen if y'all aren't vocal about it, but if I'm being honest i feel Christians aren't united enough in this opinion to actually take action (correct me if I'm wrong) I respect all faiths and seeing religion being used as an aesthetic really rubs me the wrong way
I'm not sure for the Christian of Norh America, but in most of Europe, dancing in church, singing or filming a video here for divertisment is quite a big no-no. I agree with the rest of your comment, though :)
I think all religions are okay to criticise and manipulate - they’re all social constructs, and EVERY religion has done terrible things to different people in name of religion. That includes Christianity and all ‘non white’ religions. That said, Christianity is seen with less respect is because it is most well known as being big in places like America, and white Christian Americans are not oppressed. Many other faiths are oppressed in Christian countries, so they are more protected. It’s the same as racism against white people - it exists, but no one cares, and they shouldn’t really care either - because racism against white people isn’t systematic and does far less harm than racism against black people, Asian people etc. we afford these minority groups more protection - just as we afford minority religions in K-pop’s biggest markets - like Islam, Buddhism etc, with greater protection than Christianity, because white Christians in these countries like America aren’t oppressed, they don’t need extra protection. IMO.
@@Annanna22 When did I say it's okay? It's okay to CRITICISE an alter a social construct, and minority groups with less power naturally need GREATER protection. That doesn't make it 'okay' to attack larger groups, but they just don't need the same protections. Again, if I say someone is 'white' (derogratory) in America, it doesn't do any systematic harm to them. If I say someone is 'black' derogratory - it does - hence why minority/oppressed groups gain protection.
But that only takes into account for white/western christians tho. What about minority christians in other continents? Don't we deserve to have a say too?
@@whatabother2001yes but who are the ones approving these? In america people here don't take it as seriously and its very common to see religious symbolism everywhere in things outside of religions even in story telling,movies, books, video games etc.
correction on "6 pairs of wings" it should just say "6 wings"
another correction, the Hindu god mentioned should be "Ganesha" not "Keshna"
The only member who actually had a past association with Christianity is Hong Eunchae as she was a church leader (Sunday school kid teacher I guess). Yunjin is mostly agonistic or Buddhist. Everyone else is unknown.
@@forfunhours6081 could you explain agonistic? I'm not familiar with that religion🙏🙏
@@yourname4531 i think they meant agnostic (someone who thinks that nothing can be known by humans over the potential existence of a god)
@hazy_cosmic_jive thank you so much🙏🩷🩷
it's the belief that there is a god or being that has made the universe. But they are not sure what is out there so they do not claim a specific religion. @@yourname4531
So fascinating to me that lesserafim originally had 6 members, similar to how the seraphim angel has 6 wings, well one got cut off for bullying allegations but that’s probably not how they planned that to go-
Conspiracy theory, I think it might have been planned, especially since it happened so soon after their debut. Scandals like Garam’s get a lot of attention, and would draw attention to the group as the scandal unfolded. They are a HYBE group so it’s not like they needed the extra clout, but who knows what PR teams are thinking.
@ShootingStarStudio This is what I sometimes think about at night😅 Besides Sujin(gidle), there were many idols who were accused of school bullying. But their companies were able to protect them. Garam was kicked out before the investigation was over. It looked like Hybe was trying to make himself look like a good guy who was against violence. But right after that independent lawyers and experts came to her defense and proved her innocence. Could that also be part of the plan? What happened to the girl who slandered her? Isn’t slander a crime? People said she moved schools and got away with it😐
It’s just my thoughts, I don’t want to offend anyone. I’m glad Garam’s innocence has been proven)
yup, their whole concept has been thought with the 6 of them in mind. which is crazy considering how fast hybe dropped garam, and didn't think to include another trainee to replace her to maintain the seraphim/6 concept.
and now the sixth wing of Garam has conveniently been replaced with the fandom. Similarly to how Seventeen was supposed to debut as actually 17, but four members left so they had to make up with it by saying "13 members, 3 units, one group" or something (as far as I heard)
@@whatsyourname9581 What you are saying is right. But I think for Seventeen it`s 13 member, 3 units and one fandom.😀
Thank you so much for talking about this topic! As a Christian it’s exhausting trying to explain to people that disrespect to ANY religion is wrong. And also being black and seeing ppl use the excuse that Christianity is a “white man’s religion” is beyond frustrating considering my country, Ethiopia, has been Christian since the 4th century. Thank you so so much for shedding light on this topic! 💞
Most people forgetting about Ethiopia and Armenia, as well as the land in which Jesus himself was born in, when talking about Christianity being "for white people" always rubs me the wrong way. As a fellow Christian i admire the persistent ethiopian faith 🩷 i hope you'll be more appreaciated and respected one day, as well as all Christians ☹️
omg hihiih im also an ethiopian christian, it's so nice to someone who is as well ❤i agree with everything u said, it's so frustrating constantly seeing christianity being degraded and seen as nothing, it's a beautiful religion like any other and has so much diversity. ppl honestly have no idea what they're saying when they say christianity is simply a "white man's religion" when there are so many followers outside of the west. it makes me so upset :(
@@zora8263 i have many black christian friends. And tbh they're more religious. Im muslim anyway
same, people don't seem to realise that there are plenty of Christians outside of America and Europe, and not all of us are white (not that that should even matter).
the irony Parliament of s.korea took by christian but they don't care maybe smell money hehehe
It's not just kpop, it's a trend in pop music in general, and Hollywood.
good
As a muslim, I've always found it extremely disrespectful not because islam and Christianity is very similar but because any religion does NOT deserve to be disrespected like this, even if it's my fav. I've been recently slowly fading away from being a fearnot because of the easy MV.
thank you for understanding!! no religion should be disrespected and corrupted like this, ever since i saw the unforgiven mv & lyrics i knew i had to give the group up, what they are doing is glamourizing evil & the devil, and it is not good.
Thank you. I know your own religion has being paint as violent in many ways, I even have pointed that because that fame people respected it but in truth I belive no one belifts must be used for making jokes nor to justify hate or violence because at the end most religions try to make us follow the path of love, forgivness and peace.
And we, cristians, jews and muslims belive in the same Good, even if we express it in different ways so I feel as if all of you are my brothers and sisters in Good so it is a shame we should keep fighting among us.
"Disrespecting religions is Eesaaay" 😂
I agree with her as a muslim
I love them and their songs so much but the moment I found the lyrics and their sources of origins and finding out the mockery to God and siding with the devils that backstabbed The Good nah … I have had to let go. I don’t stand for all this in a world where satanism is taking over all our favourite superstars
For me as a Christian i think the angel concept would be fine if it was respectful but standing in front of the cross singing that and the crown of thorns had me raise a eyebrow
Fr I could excuse the angel concept bc it's not the first and it'll not be the last group to use it but the crown of thorns photoshoot was just too much
@sahxx2165 yeah I've spoken about it before and the response was insane and what got me the most was they were really hitting the straight white man who hates other religions when I'm gay and have Jewish ancestry I'm very proud of
the angel concept if done respectfully wouldnt be that bad, but to have a group singing about how their unforgiven, how they are like eve and wish for whats forbidden, doing the devil horns.. i had seen enough lol. their concept wasnt intended to be a angel concept, it was a fallen angel concept, while also urging listeners of their music to join them in being unforgiven girls.
what;s crazy is unforgiven was actually interesting with the storytelling about them starting to be okay to be seen as "the bad guy" for the path they chose. in life, there are instances where we either choose our dreams or conform to what people in our life like family think what's best for us, and often when we choose the former, we end up losing the people who once were in our lives, which is kinda like being unforgiven in a sense.
instead we got... whatever unforgiven was. easy was the last straw for me bc they disrespected so much of the catholic tradition in one fell swoop - dancing in the altar with minimal clothing, chaewon wearing the mantilla inappropriately, wearing the crown of thorns and so on... guess they really make it look easy at doing whatever the hell they want 🙃
@ayakaimpacts I think if they wanted to take the Lilith approach it would work like angels who chose independence they could also express the struggles that come with it I actually love the concept idea and love the songs but it makes me uncomfortable when I see them use religious imagery in a insensitive way just like when people do it to Jewish people because my Jewish heritage
this needs to be discussed more
Yeah no, everybody is talking about the same thing in the Easy MV comments, she really thought she brought something new to the table, not to mention that she’s late to the party too, lool.
@@Verowinday777nah if anything she has exposed them for what they stand for since the cr3tion of the group itself. This group stands for the devil
Garam is the realest victim that was made to be a villain. Ironically, she was unforgiven and discarded despite her innocent. The concept for this group must be a slap in her face from hybe/source every time they have a comeback. wild
I just noticed-
Y'all very very funny, Cause from what I recall, kpoppies were all over the internet insulting Garam and calling her all kind of names. When Hybe tried to defend here, people even accused the poor girl of sleeping with someone important in hybe. When hype kept defending her, people started to accuse her of being some privileged kid, that her parents were rich and that they were paying for her to stay there. Where is this narrative that hybe is the bad guy coming from? It's Kpop stans all long, y'all the rotten ones who forced the agency to fire her after 2 weeks of debut. Come back to reality, y'all to comfortable rewriting history when YOU PEOPLE were the villains all along.
@@alinasava901 you’re acting like I was hating on garam. Do you know me?
its all "fine" and "not that deep" until you realize its only Christianity being mocked for ages. not saying any other religion is fine to mock but the blasphemy here is real
diocane vero
What’s crazy too is even outside of kpop why is there multiple rappers who put themselves on a cross pretending to be Jesus or people like jay z nickname is Jay-Hova or Hova short for jehovah
because it is fine and not that deep
We don’t care
@@devochka-s-kare proving the videos point.
And it is that deep
I agree with this strongly. I realised, as a Christian growing up, that it is so hard to stand my ground and to express when I am hurt by others' comments towards my religion. I am from a multi-religious country that is usually open and accepting of different religions, but suddenly when I say that I am a Christian, others view me differently.
And that is more prominent now. When I see other Christians voice out their concerns and discomfort towards the concept and image that Le Sserafim has, the backlash is so intense. The invalidation and threats that they receive are so extreme. It's so bad..
Just because you might not agree with what our religion is about, doesn't mean that you get to disrespect it.
not just kpop its anything and anyone
Right!
if le sserafim's concept didn't involve christianity it would have worked out, the whole I'm fearless idc what society thinks of me it's ac pretty great, not sticking to the standards of society and being anti fragile against the hate would have been way better than adding Christianity symbolism to make it seem "cool" I've been weary of them since antifragile era and honestly I just wish they had taken the route of not caring bout how society has become.
The fact that you know your Bible, what your faith is about and stand by it, makes me respect you so much more! God bless you, truly!
True. One thing we Christians should learn from Muslims and Hinduism believers is be more vocal about such cases instead of gaslighting ourselves about it not being that deep (pretty common among Christians). Actually, if any kpop stan (no matter of what religion) expressed their disappointment about disrespecting any religion or just using any sacred symbols before, it would be appropriate to do this now too.
Honestly, I think the biggest culprit to this is Hollywood. The American entertainment industry has been using and mocking Christianity and God for decades. I'm not even a Christian and I get offended by so many films and music that I don't even bother with finishing it. And these images have been seeping into the Asian entertainment industry over the past decade.
*hindus, just clarifying!
As a Muslim I totally agree with you. We believe in Jesus too and it it is not OK to disrespect Jesus
I'm an atheist, and i agree with this video 100 %. I have always hated this double standard when it comes to Christianity and other religions. If you aren't okey with the fact that other religions are being disrespected you should have the same energy when it comes to Christianity.I do understand why people don't like Christianity for the reasons that you mentioned in the video,but let's not act like other religions haven't done the same thing. Islam did the same thing they invaded other countries to force their religion, and they were brutal. Islam was forced on my people for over 500 years by Ottoman Empire,but everyone nowadays acts like Islam had a peaceful history which isn't true at all.Again, keep the same energy for other religions or don't speak at all.(this includes non religious people and atheists too).Stop the double standards.
thank you for your understanding! there really shouldnt be a double standard, because everywhere no matter what religion thereare going to have bad people who to bad things. i think the double standard is there because many westerners have been hurt by the church/christians, so they have a prejudice towards christianity as a whole now. which i get why people are like this because ive been hurt by so many of these "christians". it just seems like westerners dont know much about other religions but christianity, so they dont know other religions can do bad too🤷♀
agree. Im not religious so i dont care either way what lesserafim does, but Christians themselves need to do their part and either not support or demand better. Others need to leave them be but unfortunately religion itself has been tainted so i doubt thats ever gonna happen. But yeah I think Christian Kpop stans in general need to consider more carefully who they support since Korea might have Christians but many Christians believe only certain things or pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible. This is especially rampant in America since my parents are christian and the reason why in america religion has gotten so lax. If anything this isn't the first time this happened. Lady Gaga did this with her song Judas (a bop hahaha but I'm sure a lot of Christians hated that).
@@markigirl2757Exactly, it's christians themselves who need to fight this. This is what happens when other religions experience disrespect, they unite and voice their joint opinion. But that's difficult to do as Christians because as you mentioned, liberalism. Some are okay with it, some are not, some don't care. If you as people can't unite, no one's going to take you seriously and change anything.
As a Muslim I was horrified when I saw Judas, I was like "is this okay ?", so confused
I don’t think it’s a double standard actually. I think it’s that in the case of Muslims and Jews, they”re told to be proud of their religion, so they’re more vocal about it. Also, because if I’m not Christian, I don’t really care about someone “offending” Christianity, why should I?
@@vivid_blossoms Then why do you care about someone offending another religion but Christianity
As a Muslim, I notice how quick it is to jump and lash out on kpop artists who disrespected islam (nct and the mosque decor as an example), but the same response is not given when groups are making aesthetics about creatures prominent in different religions. Honestly I am not as close to kpop as I once was, one of the reasons being it was deterring me from my religion to an unhealthy point. Lesserafim’s team might think it’s just a visually aesthetic concept, but it could easily be taken as mocking or devaluing the creatures Christianity holds important. Interesting topic.
thank you for noticing the differences! i completely understand when kpop fans are upset when there is disrespect of islam, it is unfortunate that christians cant be taken seriously when they bring up their own discomfort and disrespect in the industry. i am in the same boat as you are, im distancing myself away from kpop, because i think its unhealthy to be so focused on idols, rather than focusing on God!
its bc christianity is way more lax over the years while other religions stayed the same way.
@@markigirl2757 that's another true point---
@@markigirl2757 We are not "lax", that's really only the Americans/Westerners who don't actually follow Christianity and simply use it as a title or aesthetic for monetary gain.
Christianity in the West is tied to far right censorship and hate. That's why it's so easy to ridicule. Fundamentalist Islam has the same problem, but Muslims are far less preachy to people outside of their religion than many Christians are. Islam has also been villainized by the West for political reasons, so it's seen as more sympathetic than Christianity. There's also Christianity's ties to imperialism, forced conversion and white supremacy. The tendency to mock Christianity and Christians is justifiably tied to anger over marginalization. It's also not considered taboo to meme Jesus. I suspect that heavy use of Biblical imagery in kpop is tied to both rebellion against Christianity's dominance in the country and a reverence of it. Mockery of Christianity is always a mockery of certain sects that are seen as abusive and annoying, not the orthodox and respectful sects that aren't LOUD about their faith.
Whelp. Never listening to LeSerrafim again, I guess. As someone who grew up in a country where Christianity is a minority religion and actually still faces persecution in some areas, I’m not as cool with this as the West seems to be.
Yes, Christians still do face a lot of persecution in many Middle Eastern countries, especially in many Islamic countries where, as Donald Trump put it, are under the rule of "radical Islam." I hope for their safety and well-being even as a non-Christian myself.
I litteraly learned antifragile dance😢. I reget getting in kpop completly. I feel free like a bird now. Before, I felt like demons are in my phone and I couldn't sleep or pray next to it.
Also don't worry, God will win so, if He is with us who is against us? They just proove our Lord is alive.
This is a fantastic topic to bring up! Hypocrisy is the most important point... If certain kpop scenes were changed due to offending certain religions, then why is it suddenly okay to have an entire concept disrespecting Christianity? When people say it's okay to mock Christianity because people have used it to hurt them, I wonder if they feel the same way about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc? Also, as a Christian, if somebody used it to hurt somebody I feel very sorry for them and will stand by them, but hating and holding bitterness in your heart will never allow you to truly heal. This isn't just a Christian teaching but also pretty popular in most forms of therapy.
I feel the same way about the other ones tbh
Not sure I’ll see LS the same again. Disappointing that they’d disrespect any religion for cash and fame. Why demean others’ beliefs? Hope the members reconsider this unnecessary disrespect.
same, didn't realise the level of symbolism they had just casually used since I don't usually watch kpop mvs anyway, but yeah this video was an eye opener
It could be they do
@@vivid_blossoms What is that based on?
@@BillyWhaler it could be that they don’t want to actually do this concept, and they’re in a contract. Also I don’t see why people have to believe what I do and why do they have to respect what I believe in?
@@vivid_blossoms no one has to believe in something you do or don't do to respect it. It's generally expected to be respectful of everyone's faith and Christian beliefs shouldn't be an exception to that. Such things have a larger impact as opposed to just one person's opinion on something. Besides, it's not so much about respect as it is about disrespect
What I've noticed is that its always "not that deep" and "you're being sensitive" when it comes to Christians being offended and their religion being mocked , but dare say this to someone else from another religion who feels offended by a certain song/MV and you'll be put on the stake.
I think we should try to respect EVERY religion, whether you agree with it or not, everyone deserves to be respected.
Amen to that! Idk if it's that these people were neglected by their families and weren't taught respect, but where I came from, I grew up around several religions and we were all taught to respect eachother. These days, being edgy and disrespectful especially towards Christianity is seen as cool or the popular opinion. 😒
You don't even have to bring up how Christianity started in the Middle East and how Jesus was described as brown, but even now, as of today, you still have millions of non-white worhippers who have been Christian for a longer time than Europeans have. There's churches as far as India older than the ones in Europe, and Christianity is vibrant in some parts of the country. In Northern Africa you have the Copts, descendants of Ancient Egyptians who've been Christian since the Romans converted them almost 2000 years ago. But the most important population would probably the Ethiopian Orthodox people, amongst the first ethnic group to adhere to Christianity and they're fulll Black Africans.
And as an atheist I agree on the weird obsession atheists have with Christianity, although it might be because most of them (myself included) come from that background and know more about it than about any other religion.
I totally agree with you! It is really unfair that (coming from an atheist) Christianity is often mocked or, as in lsrm's case used as a concept praising all that is evil and then not even critized by large amounts of people! Yes, I get that other religions are still disrespected and having that faith could have got you killed back then, but that was/is the same case with Christianity. People need to realize that every religion is being mocked by some people and that needs to stop. Also I'm glad you're back!
I'm not a religious person but i agree with you 10000000% on this one i find it so strange that some kpop stans always say "we should respect all religions " except Christanity wicth is the most hypocritical thing i have ever seen in my 24 years on this earth
THANK YOU
When has any K-pop stan said that?
@vivid_blossoms you'd be surprised 😅
@vivid_blossoms Most people don't say that explicitly, but it's evident through their actions and words
As a Catholic since birth this is a weird af comment section. What is with the victim complex? Christianity simply hasn't been taboo in the West, sure we might get a double standard in terms of respecting our symbols and practices because Christianity is almost synonymous with a lot of Western culture.
Like think about Christmas, I honestly used to get really annoyed at how bastardised Christmas is. You can make the same arguement for Easter too. But guess what it's a double sword because you don't get persecuted in the West like those who practice Islam or Judaism.
It seems like people here are mad about this 'double standard' not being called out but it's simply stupid because 1. It's not a double standard, it's the result of vastly different histories of different religions in different areas of the world, they are two separate issues. And 2. The only reason you don't see people calling it out is because you're only looking at one subsect of people, namely more liberal leaning individuals.
Guess what, most of these people who are 'calling out' disrespect against Islam are probably younger more liberal thinking people, who are probably used to Islam being stigmatised in the West as a religion of terror. To them Christianity is just more widely accepted, and thus they don't feel the need go out of their ways to defend it. Not saying that's correct, but ignoring this is like looking at a tree that's fallen down and not trying to figure out what made it fall down. You get no valuable information.
I personally think there is disrespect against Christianity, and I don't like that. But this comment section is pathetic. Pretending like Christianity is the only religion to draw the short end of the stick. As if people don't actively call Muslims and Hindus 'terrorists and rapists' on the daily. Is that not disrespect? Or does it suddenly not count because twitter gets mad at one thing but not the other?
No one owns the monopoly on persecution, stop comparing your issues to others as if that invalidates them. I assure you, Christianity gets plenty of benefits that the other religions do not, as well as many drawbacks that the others do not. That's life, you should be able to stand up for your own religion without invalidating or trivialising the pain of another.
Clearly some of you don’t understand the meaning of Christianity, look at your insecure words, unempathetic perspectives and inability to have compassion for your neighbours and seriously ask yourselves if God would be approving.
It’s true. It’s odd to think that like people don’t disrespect other religions
Go into any comment section about Islam for example, plenty of disrespect there.
good point. Personally i never saw that as disrespect. I even use Christianity symbolism in many things bc its fascinating in itself with its already documented lore in explaining things etc. Ive seen Christianity used in many types of stories and movies and never found them disrespectful just ways to showcase something many people universally believe in. I think however there is room for criticism and Christians that take the bible super seriously have a right to criticize but the reason its not a huge deal fro us in the US is bc Lesserafim is not the first nor will be the last that showed religious symbolism as way to convey a message--a way for Christians to make a connection to their religion as well. As for other religions, i cannot speak on them and like Christians they are allowed to criticize too. Goes to show how corrupted religion is in the US, and let me tell u its gotten worse over the years--hence why lesserafim can continue doing this bc most people that like them here hate religions of all kinds in general
The very mention of "double standards" as a gotcha moment is often the mark of a blindness for nuance and context. As if the same standards should mindlessly be applied to everything, everywhere, everytime. Different situations -> different outcomes.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into such a well written comment!
Although I´m an atheist, I was born in an orthodox country and raised in a catholic country. I was dying inside when reading some of these comments where people were talking as if Christians are some persecuted minority who are not given the voice to defend themselves. Christians are at the top of the hierarchy when it comes to religions, at least in the west. If they found this stuff offensive, they would definitively make themselves heard, specially in a conservative country like South Korea. The reason there is no backlash is because, again, they are at the top of the hierarchy. Why would they be bothered by such a thing?
THANK YOU
I don't want to offend you or anyone reading this comment. I found this analysis interesting but I believe that you are viewing this subject from only one lens (the Christian lens) when Christianity not only encompasses religion but also history and everyone is allowed to have a perspective on it.
I will admit that I am not religious but I have read the Bible and I try to be very fair when judging. You cannot deny the destruction and repression Christianity has caused and still causes in some regions of this world for particular groups of people (women, gays, POC). There is another viewpoint to this, in which you can regard religion as man-made (literally MAN-made, with the role of the woman being subordinate). I have always interpreted le sserafim's concepts to be about that, especially with the mention of Eve, who is often regarded as an image of female corruption. An image perpetuated by men accusing women of having some evil power over them. The same theme becomes apparent when you talk about some angels leaving the realm of God to "be with women". It's a male perspective through and through.
The Bible is a reflection of the time period in which it was written. Here is where Christians often have a problem and proclaim that the Bible was dictated by God and merely written down by men, making it a holy relic. My problem with this is that this is a religious interpretation of a historical document. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and it allows people to criticize and interpret your faith in ways that you may not see fit. Yes, the Bible is an integral part of the Christian faith, but you cannot gatekeep it.
I'm sure you are aware why Islam is not used as a theme, with instances like the Charlie Hebdo attack or Salman Rushdie's Japanese translator being killed over merely translating the Satanic Verses (even Salman Rushdie himself was once again under attack just a short while ago).
What I'm trying to say is that it is not an insult to Christians that media dares to use Christian themes. It's a testament to the societies in which Christianity is the predominant culture. It's good that people don't have to fear for their lives when they reference the Bible in an unflattering/critical way.
Unfortunately, videos like these are also a testament to the one thing Christianity thrives on the most: victimhood in the face of a perceived enemy. The tendency of Christians to engage in borderline martyrdom for the sake of demonstrating how much they suffer as a show of unwavering faith is a red thread through time. That's where I personally would categorize your perception of K-Pop "mocking" your religion when all that really happened was stories from the Bible undergoing a different interpretation than you like. Once again, I am not saying this to offend you or anyone who might still be reading at this point. It's more meant for your self-reflection.
you literally ate
Hello,
Chirstian Catholic here (From West Europe)
I agree a lot with your points but also think it can be applied to monotheistic religion as a hole.
It's not really a Christian only tjink (being created by men, used by them to dismissed and lower women's right and ability to voice their opinion).
Also, the issue is not really to criticize Christianity (Charlie Hebdo is a French journal known for that with sitire and humorous drawings, pedophilia and other SA, and the wealth the Vatican was able to gather during centuries when the crhist wanted to live in poverty, how it was used during colonisation to justify it and applied there, the sectarism and close mindset you often find, how they exhibit savior syndrom in less developed country...)
Honestly, Christianity is often criticize where i live and i tjink it's an important part to improve, better it self.
The culture (pop/mass/classical) often mock religious people (often Christian since it was for a long time the majority by a miles).
But, the issue lies with the fact it's often the only religion - at least where i'm from, since a lot of past christian country have freedom of speech.
@@lanou5392 Hey! Thank you so much for your kind reply
@@cappuccinobean2442
I'm not going to be efficient in my answer and I apologize for that. Please do not mind the grammar mistake it's quite late and I'm sleepy.
It's alright you're very respectful and quite kind.
Thank you 😊
I think k-pop disrespect Christianity or to be more more precise is not mindful of the religion.
But they are not the only one.
Christianity is often used as a divertissement. This is a kind of disrespect.
Previously I talked about pop culture in some counties in Europe (it may apply to the west in general) where cultures used by people dismissed religion or used them for tropes. In an horror movie, you're going to see a priest who performs an exorcism, you're going to see a nun, there are going to use the mental picture of the devil.
It's worse when it's for p*rn... Or even sexy cosplay.
It's the same in east Asia, more specifically in Korea, but also Japan where priests and nuns are used as tropes, in manga, webtoon, drama but also music- K-pop in our case.
I find LSF concept a little bit disrespectful but it's not like it's an insult. There is a degree to disrespect and what LSF is still quite mild.
What's bothering some folks is when people do not recognize it can be insensitive to Christian or religious people as a whole.
We're seen as cry baby.
But I think debating how we perceive and use our religion in our culture and how others can do the same but differently create a new perspective on the religion.
But also how some christians don't see the world the same.
For example, the mega church and the modern church looking like stores in the USA are quite shoking to me, more than what LSF did.
here I'm from, even though money is always in the discussion, we want our church to represent values or symbols.
Cathedral are in the form of a Cross from above, the huge glass vitrail are a representation of the light, enlightenment and spiritual elevation.
It must be pretty, it's because God made the world pretty with a lot of details. Nature is a lot of details. And details can be symbols.
It's not supposed to be a divertissement, a spectacle.
But it is a different interpretation. To each their own, I guess
But you're right, we're using a different religion in the cultures and we don't see them complain.
I think it's for two main reasons :
1. They are not a part of a huge group of people powerful enough to be heard :(
2. They don't see it as disrespectful.
There is maybe a point to make here, maybe it's about the line between cultural appropriation and appreciation.
(I'm not using these terms to downplay what POC have endured and how they want to protect, preserve and use their culture)
We don't draw the line in the sand place, some are going to be really encouraging of people trying part of their culture (it could be religion, clothing, food or music) and some want their culture to be left alone.
I'm sorry if it's confusing, I'm not sure how to articulate my point here. May you understand what gibberish I was trying to explain.
I'll come back later to deepen my own opinion and share it with you if you still agree with that :)
thank you for saying what i couldn't put into words
ive been saying this for so long tysm
I'm agnostic, ex Christian. I can't speak for the girls or how deep their level of faith is, but in general the problem is that at the end of the day religion is an ideology. One thing is to respect the believers and let them practice their religion, which is a human right, another thing is to respect religion itself. The key is criticizing ALL religions and not just one. Getting angry at just people disrespecting Islam and not people disrespecting Christianity is stupid, as you say, but personally I don't get angry at either.
Questioning Satan's role in the Bible and whether he is actually the bad guy is not a new thing, people have been writing about it for ages. While the way Le Sserafim presents it is clearly only for the vibe and shallow reasons, the phylosophy behind it is serious and poses interesting questions about morality. Personally, I'm fine with these themes coming up in songs. Like I'm fine with critiques to ANY religion.
In general, while I recognize that the way Le Sserafim does it is veeeery shallow, the oroginal phylosophycal message behind it is strong in its reasoning and to me Christians who are confident in their faith have no reason to get upset
Well said, couldn't agree more
@@MikiAweona374 They always confuse an attack on religion as an attack on all believers. They talk about "disrespecting religion" when in reality they don't want their core values to be questioned. But I think the fundamental ideas of Christianity about God and Lucifer are bs, am I not allowed to say it and explain why? Art exists also for this and SO many artists and writers have been persecuted in the past for "disrespecting religion"
@@lavistelle6031 I can understand why some christians could feel offended by this, but is seriously not that deep and is just a concept used to differentiate and sell a group in a very competitive industry
@@MikiAweona374 If they were doing caricatures of Christians then yes I would see the problem. But they aren't, the message is against the ideology, not against the believers
I could not have worded my thoughts about their concept/the Easy video more perfectly than this.
The brainwashing in this comment section is UNREAL.
I don't get it. What are you talking about? Can you explain pls
Christianity had been mocked and degraded for years, and nobody seems to get upset compared to if it was islam, Jewish ect ect. Thank you Cheryl as a Christian for being brave enough to say this. You've you gained a Subscriber.
Edit: also cheryl are you Christian and if so, what group (baptist, catholic ect)
I think every religion “thinks” that the all religions are safe from online attack except their own
We refer to “groups” within Christianity as denominations, love
Cap
for Muslims, whenever we see someone who is mocking Islam in any kind of ways, we immediately stop supporting them, and if it was super disrespectful cancel them, they should understand that religions are very sensitive things, and for you guys should do the same as well for Christianity to stop these people from using your religion in a bad way
@@mirassama4604 i’m already just a casual listener of LSFM…by which I mean I like their debut and “Sour Grapes,” and I like “Antifragile” for the dance (the song itself is mid). But every release after just hasn’t done it for me. Won’t be too difficult for me to stop supporting them.
I see the satanic panic has reached kpop.
There's no satanic panic. People just want their beliefs to be respected.
no fr it's crazy. where has the media literacy gone...
@@cristinacristescu1173 biblical references ≠ disrespect
@@4leafcl0verz but it is disrespect. It’s okay to dance in a church but if they were to dance in a mosque, suddenly it’s horrible? Make it make sense
@@ivannaclassic2773 yall keep making this argument but it's just not the same. if a musical group from a primarily muslim country were to dance in a mosque i wouldn't question it because it's a representation of culture. that's why i don't think people need get all pissy when a group from a primarily christian country dance in a church. use some context before yall start acting like christians are oppressed lmao
Christianity is the most common religion in Korea. A lot of the people behind these concepts have personal experience with this religion and are allowed to express their feelings about it. Is art not supposed to be critical of society and the powers that be? Why do Christian expect non-Christians or ex-Christians to hold their religion with the same regard. Your video assumes that they are criticizing or using Christianity in a superficial way, not acknowledging the impact that Christianity and Korean churches have had on the country. Also, art that is critical does not necessarily mean it is disrespectful.
I hate this argument about this stuff being art…
You can say it’s art but it’s not good art and it’s disrespectful… the community is telling you it’s disrespectful and you’re ignoring it. Which is funny cus the more I sit and think the more I realize that’s a common trait with alot of y’all kpop Stans. Y’all openly disrespect cultures and don’t care…
Just single-handedly proved why this video exists
Glorifying evil doesn't bring goodness and mercy , humanity will be better off glorifying virtues instead of glorifying evils like pride, lust, envy, greed etc 😊
1. christianity is not the most common religion, buddhism is. most koreans consider themselves non-religious, so christians in korea are definitely a minority
2. a lot of people just use these religions as an aesthetic, and it is disrespectful. why do you think muslims get angry at blackpink for using ganesha, or hindus for using the bindi? because they have meaning, and these groups are using them as a fashion statement, disregarding their history.
3. art is critical, but art can also be disrespectful. just because it's labeled under "art" it doesn't get the automatic pass to not offend people.
4. she's not assuming, they ARE using it in a superficial way. if they weren't, either their lore would've remained consistent or they would've used other religious figures with the same theme indiscriminately, as their point is not the religion but the message. but they're not.
5. just as critical art is not always disrespectful, disrespectful art is not always critical. think about that
@@rivkeg7599Ganesha is related to Hindus, not Muslims. Bindis have nothing to do with religion. Check your facts.
I may not agree with u all the time especially your recent short and subsequent (real) controversy, but as usual this is a video i actually really like.
Well done on this; this is a very much needed video
what controversy?
Can I just say, as a Christian for my entire life, who has seen the downfall of media into this blatantly accepting society of mocking our faith and our beliefs, while hailing every other religion in the same breath, thank you so much for making this video. The issue runs so much deeper than kpop, but kpop is certainly not exempt. Again, thank you. It means so much to finally hear a voice of reason amidst this insanity.
Unrelated (I’m a Christian and I agree with you so much) but I am so grateful as a deaf person for how you includes captions in your videos. Thank you so much.
Christians trying not to have a victim somplex challenge (impossible edition)
Meanwhile in muslim countries you can't be an atheist or talk againt god because you'll be stoned for apostasy. Talk about snowflakes.
Not the 2 commenters assuming you're a Muslim because of your name😂. All religions don't deserve respect by default and immediacy. There's no such a thing as "disrespecting" religions because most religious people call those who don't bend over their beliefs "disrespectful and blasphemous"
I'll be honest: I didn’t even notice that they were dancing in a church in the mv, but then again, I only watched it once because I didn’t like the song. But I agree with what you have said and appreciate that you said it.
To all the Christian if you really believe in Jesus would you be listening to K-pop
@@park_suhong as christian, I got into kpop because of funny memes and videos, but than I clicted to one video explaining what we should be careful about while listening to kpop. For exeamle: magic, lust, fallen angels and devil's signs. I was so shocked when I saw that alot of songs (almost every one ) have something demonic so I stopped to listen to it all. ( christian kpop is so safe and I tottaly reccomend it.)
Those aren’t Indian mosques 💀 those are how all mosques should preferably look like but a lot of countries banned minarets for no reason. In no way does the design of the mosque in the nct u MV represent india. It represents Islam. Islam had prophets sent to all the lands, not just Arabia.
You're back! I was wondering where you were!!! 🎉
Hi Cheryl! Glad you're back.
I mean personally as a non-religious person I won't bat my eye when any religion is disrespected, christianity or other, I'm not really a fan of any type of religion.
at least you are consistent, I respect that better than anyone who picks and chooses what religion can be disrespected.
as we should. All religions are the same to me, they just have different books and rules and regulations that are different depending on the cultural significance it represents but also lead to the same path just in different ways.
i feel your opinion. for me every religion is criminal and disgusting and just causes wars
So, because you're Not Religious, it's okay to disrespect other people's faith, Just because YOU're not part of it? What Kind of thinking is that?? So, If you're hetero, it's okay to disrespect homosexuals, since it doesn't affect you either, or what??? By your Logic, that would apply to anything 🙄 absolutely ridiuculous! Just because you're Not Religious, doesn't mean it's okay to start mocking what other people quite literally put their Hearts into! Your comment is disgusting
What do you mean by “Judaism well we all know by now” go ahead say it, say what you think.
It's a video about Christianity and that would no longer be the focus if she said anything about it. She didn't bring it up because it was simply not relevant.
@@Stay_Zerose I commented because she did bring it up, that’s what the quote from the video is referencing
@@Stay_Zerose she brought up Islam
Thank you for standing up for Christianity and explaining that any disrespect should, rightfully so be met with criticism. There so much more i want to say, but this is a great video to defend Christianity and us who take our beliefs very very seriously, yet love Kpop.
Personally, as an agnostic, I can see why people are offended about Le Sserafim's current comeback and visuals. I used to be Christian, and I know what all of these symbolisms mean, so I went 😬. I personally love their theme with six wings and six members, so when one wing suddenly fell so early when they were revealed, suddenly, the SSERAFIM fought back. That's what I believed the theme to be, but EASY is meh, and did not live up to deserve using imagery like this.
I respectfully disagree with this one. I think all artist has the right to challenge or even mock any religion until they go after the ideas and not the people.
Of course you have the right to not watch / follow them. But to try to police them for a concept seems like the same sensitive overreaction which you criticized before.
Exactly, and, while we really can't say if it's the case for Le Sserafim or anyone really, many people have trauma related to religion and they are allowed to express it. Art has the right be controversial and challenge the ideologies. The video and song were never against Christians, only against Christianity. If your ideology is so weak that it crumbles at the first criticism, then you have bigger problems
I'm really not agree with this cause religion is not something that you could separate with people so with intention or not in the end you re gonna attack people too
If it was islam religion they were using for their "lore" or using for their "art" then many more people will be kicking off. It's just double standards
@@ana-xx6tn 💯 agreed.
@@ana-xx6tnin some specific case this might be true - in my country I see many example of this towards Jewish people. But I think there is a significant difference: usually in those cases the focus on the people not actually their religion. If a K-POP group would go after anyone who is baptized I would understand the outrage.
I don't hate the seraphim concept but the crown of thorns is taking it too far... They should at least apologize for it. I wonder if there was any backslash in Korea.
They could have taken the concept into other directions, like making some of the members the prideful or rebellious ones and others the responsible part of the angel (as all members are supposed to be one entity).
Why should they apologize for it?
@@vivid_blossoms mockery of religion. it is the same disrespect (some people would say) as the Blackpink how you like that mv mockery of the Hindu god.
Disrespect towards anyone should not be tolerated. Apologies should be issued
@@nimitsu_ but don’t you think they didn’t realize that people would get triggered when they were planning the MV?
I think if it was purely accidental, then an apology would be warranted, otherwise it’s fake
@@vivid_blossoms I don't know whether they knew it would be disrespectful to put this in the MV. What needs to be done is that the directors or whoever plans the mvs needs to stop using the portrayal of the devil in Christianity as an aesthetic and a good thing, as that is disrespectful. An apology isn't really that necessary, it's just a sign that the MV team acknowledge their triggering actions towards religion and will not do the same in the future.
"they should apologize for it" they literally have a song called unforgiven. this is all meant to cause controversy because that's their concept. i need yall to think a little harder next time ok
I disagree with the message of this video.
1. I would humbly suggest that attacking the church leaders/communities in Korea for allowing their buildings to be used that way is out of line. There are vastly different standards between communities. One should not impose ones own view on what is considered acceptable on other christian communities, especially when it comes to things like art or behaviours. After all, Romans 14 is quite clear that it is God who will judge which act is against his standards in the end, not humans. "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind."
2. In the past, artists and scientists have been prevented from realizing their vision or publishing their science beause it would "offend religion" (or more accurately, religious believers). Even today, the science of evolution is under attack in several democracies by Christian extremists. This is not to say that you are doing the same thing here - in fact you call for forgiveness if somebody offends - but in my experience, when religion starts to get offended and tries to impose values on others, forgiveness very rarely is the end result in practice.
3. Standards on what is "acceptable" have varied a lot over the course of human history and to definitely say that "X is against religion" is a bit of a funny point of view when it comes to the relation between religion and art. Consider the back and forth between iconoclasts and iconophiles. In fact there is visible evidence in very old churches on how art and acceptance of art changed drastically. Were those who believed artwork of Jesus was heresy lesser believers than those who loved the idea of a sistine chapel or a huge golden icon? Or did the standards of the time evolve, much in the same way christianity evolved over the course of its creation and reformation over the millenia? I submit it is the latter.
4. Art is supposed to be provocative. Let us not be like today's snowflakes who are offended by things like the statue of David being nude or that some artists depict the Madonna as having an exposed breast. Art is supposed to push boundaries. I would rather encourage a young mind to experiment and grow instead of stifling artistic expressions in the name of religion, especially when that religion clearly cannot agree on common standards for what is acceptable or not or changes those standards by the decade or century (while everybody is convinced their own standards are absolute in this regard).
5. The way they act clearly has a thought-out concept behind it that engages and plays with religious ideas. This suggests that - whoever is behind the concept - is at the very least somebody who has read about the stories and who engages with them on some level. Do you also think Salman Rushdie should apologize for writing the Satanic Verses because it offended believers of his religion? (and no I don't think you believe he should be killed or persecuted). I am quite frankly unsure what you want of them. To be aware? I submit they are. To apologize for hurting the feelings of christians? Weren't you of the mindset that people should not engage in snowflake behaviour if somebody else who is within his legal rights to do something?
6. Maybe Christianity is the most disrespected religion in the whole world. So what? Does that diminish your faith? It sure does not diminish mine. I for one am glad that we no longer have the days where Christianity was respected and such respect was enforced by law, fire and the sword. If the price to pay to live in a modern society is that some artist might make fun of my religion, then that is a price that I will gladly pay, especially since nobody can force me to watch or give money to said artist.
Hmmm I hope this wasn't too rambling and feel free to disagree with all my points. After all, freedom of expression and all that xD.
thank you so much for being a realistic christian. but you’re preaching to the choir, this person will never care about this take nor consider it because unfortunately someone like this got lost a long time ago. it always fulfills my soul to meet a very realistic religious person though
Point 1:
I have to strongly disagree with this paragraph. First off, using the word "attack" is wrong on so many levels. I said that as believer we should call out church leaders when they do something that is clearly against the word of God, accountability and attacking are not the same thing, so "humbly" listen to what I said and do not put words in my mouth. As for your quoting of Romans 14, I am annoyed that you even believe this counts as an scripture to interpret this situation. One of Paul's biggest responsibilities in his ministry was to help transition Christians from a life of following the law of Moses to submitting themselves to grace. In this scripture, his focus is alert the church that focusing on such minuet details such as what a person believes they should eat or drink is not a good enough reason to isolate someone from the gatherings. The Holy Spirit is responsible for convicting the person and God will deal with them accordingly. Even Peter was still stuck on tradition when he had the vision of the blanket that fell from heaven with all kinds of animals and the Lord told him to eat. This was a struggle with the early church and that was Paul was addressing. Minuet details about what to eat or wear, or whether to kneel when praying or standing up are not the same as taking a place that is dedicated to God as a house of prayer and letting a group that clearly has no respect for God or Christianity to perform in. Jesus literally cast out money changers from a temple with a whip and stated "It is written; My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves" Using a "difference of communities" as an argument to not speak up is insane because the only standard that decides whether that is wrong or not for every Christian no matter the country is God's Word. That opinion doesn't hold water to me, I'd have to disagree strongly on that one.
2. Point out a part in this video where I said Christianity is beyond criticism and I'll apologize. Yes, there are times Christianity has been used to oppress free speech, I've studied enough history to not deny it, but it is not every Christian individual's fault which makes it irrelevant in this context, why should take that in consideration when I am not doing the same thing? For you to use an argument so many non-believers use to try and gaslight us into silence when we call out clear disrespect of our faith is telling and not in the best way.
3. I understand art evolving, I understand times changing, I understand freedom of expression through art changing, but I believe there is something that doesn't change, and that is God's Word. That is my standard for criticism, not the worldly standards of what has become acceptable over time, and what hasn't. It is not the world Le sserafim disrespected, it is God, therefore I uses His standards to determine whether this form of expression of Art is disrespectful to Him or not. It's not about me, you, history, evolution of art or my feelings, its about Him and what He expects which he mentions clearly through His word. Again, in my opinion, this point is irrelevant because the world's evolution in art doesn't matter in this context.
4. "Art is supposed to be provocative. Let us not be like today's snowflakes who are offended by things like the statue of David being nude or that some artists depict the Madonna as having an exposed breast." Again I agree with this statement in solation, but this is not David, he is human, like you and me. David is not God. Le sserafim's concept is centered around rebellion against God, not some biblical character, God Himself. Pushing boundaries and questioning the norm is not the same as literally breaking those boundaries because I know as well as you do, these boundaries would never be pushed with any other religion. When Le sserafim get brave enough to do that with Islam, you can talk to me.
5. Point out a timestamp where I asked anything of Le sserafim, and again, I will apologize. I addressed two sets of people, non-Christians and Christians. Even towards the end I clearly stated that this was for those who believed as Christians we have no basis to be upset by what was done, I asked that Christians be given the room to speak out because we deserve that space, and as I can see from the comment section, I achieved that goal, then I addressed Christians to remember to forgive as we are commanded to do and to move on however to see fit whether it included unstanning the group or not. I never asked Le sserafim for anything, nor did I state what I expect from them personally, I only addressed the issue of bearing responsibility but again that was for k-pop stans and how the distribute responsibility and the hypothetical situation of the Korean members being Christians. As for Salman Rushdie, he did what he did, and you are right, I don't believe that he should be killed but my issue is acting as if people cannot criticize what he did. Again I do not engage in "snowflake" behavior but there is a difference between the lack of willingness to handle difference of opinion and throwing a tantrum every time things do not go your way versus speaking up again disrespect against a being you believe to be the divine and the source of life and morality. Calling someone who won't accept disrespect to their faith a "snowflake" is to lose meaning of that word entirely.
6. "Maybe Christianity is the most disrespected religion in the whole world. So what?" My reasoning was always that non-believers wouldn't allow this for any other religion. They go up in arms for them, come up with names to call people, and viciously attack anyone who thinks disrespecting religions is okay but that is not applied to Christianity. The term for that is "double standards" and again, it is perfectly within my rights to call it out. You can appreciate living in a world where Christianity isn't used as an iron fist to control people, but that doesn't mean that you swing to the other side of the pendulum and tolerate disrespect. And the fact that you even think I should "gladly pay the price of some artist making fun of my religion" as you put it to show I am not a a snowflake is one hell of an asinine point to make. I am choosing to go with Romans 12:2, I will not conform just because that is what the world thinks I should do. If something is not okay, like everything else on my channel, I'll speak up against it, and no amount of calling me a "snowflake" is going to change that.
Point 1:
His word might not change, what we Humans do with it and how we worship and what we tolerate sure does however. For example, it has been long-standing tradition among churches, including the one I attend, to be a center of a community and to allow artists to perform. My own church choir regularly performs with artists inside the church. We sing all kind of music - Mozart, Verdi, Mendelson. We also work with singers from outside for the more challenging solo parts (which we do not ask about religion before engaging them). A church is a house of prayer, first and foremost, yes. However, it is not exclusively that and we humans have treated it as a place of refuge, a fortification, a museum, a hospital and as a place of artistic performances in the past.
Point 2:
We live in societies where (ideally) there is a freedom of expression. That means religion has no right to influence art or science or enact prohibtions on it. Do you agree with these fundamental human rights?
Point 3&4:
HIS words do not change. What we humans think of it and what actions we interpret as being disrespectful to god however does. The depiction of "The Creation of Adam" would have been seens as being disrespectful and heresy and forbidden only a few centuries before its creation. Likewise, you are applying your interpretation and the interpretations of other humans. So was Michaelangelo a heretic worse than Le Sserafim? If you ask an iconoclast (or any member following an iconoclastic sect of Christianity today) then yes, he very much was. Ask the same question of a person of the 15th century and the answer is "no." Ask a radical protestant in the 16th century and the answer is "yes" again. And if you had the hypothetical change to ask a christian from the 25th century about what he considered not to be a disrespect to god then that answer might shock you.
People revered as Saints today have had very much differing opinions on what constitutes disrespect to god, ranging from depicting him being highly disrespectful to even believing god would be honored by an artistic dialogue. Heck, one of the bishops of Alexandria (and I assume you know the significance of that pentarchic seat) even thought there was nothing wrong between believing in Neoplatonism and God at the same time. Do you presume you know better than all of them? Do you presume to know the intention of God that specifically that you know this performance offends him? Do you know wether Le Sserafim or alll those people mentioned are in his grace or not? No christian can know those things for certain. We are all guessing.
Point 5&6:
I don't get this whataboutism about Islam. I have defended the right of people to publish caricatures of Mohammed before and I think radical Islam is a real threat to modern values and to democracy. But what Le Sserafim does ranks as very low on the "disrespect to Christians scale" given what is going on in many parts of the wrold right now. Especially because I have not even seen somebody yet to conclusively prove that the intent here is to disrespect Christianity. I see an artistic engagement with religion and its rules, something that has happened an incalculable amount of times in human history.
The main differnce to me is between thinking something is done in bad taste or to perceive it as an insult and the consequences of that. We humans are amazing at picking what part of the bible we observe and which ones we chose to disregard and those standards differ heavily from century to century as humans evolve. Extramaritial sex, what to eat, what holy days to observe in what manner have all been changed over the centuries.
You yourself are picking and choosing what to believe and what not, or do you take everything in the bible literally? Do you, for example, believe Homosexuality is a sin? That extramarital sex is a sin? The core issue is how you define what disrespects God and his laws. That is why I used Romans 14, which you then said were minor details. However other christians might think different about observing dietary laws or the Sabbath. So I would suggest not throwing a stone here.
@@ErikLudwig-ql6rk EAT HER UP ERIKKKK‼️‼️‼️
Saving this comment. I agree with this pov about art.
people being killed due to practicing religion doesn’t affect lesserafim at all, that’s on their people for being discriminatory of religions 💀
I don't stan them, i don't even listen to them but it was really interesting to hear. Thank you for this interesting video.
Thank you so much cheryl, that was very well said and presented.
no no keep talking about judaism….let me hear u
you thought you were so clever here, LOL... the reason she didn't go in detail was so people wouldn't bring up her stance, because it is not relevant to the video
This exactly what I was thinking.
@@Stay_Zerosebut she brought up Islam
It's discriminating!
K-Pop should disrespect every religion!!
It isn't discriminating, and k-pop shouldn't respect religions as long as it doesn't discriminate against the followers
THANK YOU!! As a Catholic, I genuinely cannot stand kpop fans because of the hypocrisy and flat out bigotry when it comes to Christianity being mocked and disrespected. I genuinely felt like i've been treated subhuman by a LOT of kpop fans ( and music fans, or even just atheists in general ) all because i'm Christian and they don't like that for whatever reason.
And it's funny to me how when it comes to generalizing another other group or community ( religious or otherwise ), how quick are these same people to jump right in and attack you.... but when it's Christians, suddenly it's crickets? Soooo you can paint me as something i'm not, whether it be a stereotype or false accusation.... but heaven forbid I do the same to you.
Cannot stand the hypocrisy, atp I wouldn't be surprised if more Christians starting speaking up more aggressively about how unfair and poorly we get treated on a day to day basis, simply for existing.
I am Muslim, when I first saw the music video of Easy I didn't like how they used holy a place of other religion to dance and film, and I never watched it again. I would be disappointed if they did the same thing with my religion. And I didn't listen to the song either because I had problems with the usage of autotune.
when I first saw the lyrics of Eve, Psyche, and BB's wife, I didn't like it, but the song got me since it was overplayed everywhere. But this video literally opened my eyes. I don't think I will be listening to their title tracks again. (except Antifragile) and listen to a couple of B-sides only. I don't want any religion to be disrespected just for the concept of group. thank you for the video.
Why do y’all always have to look at things and assume someone is against or trying to play a bad narrative. I’m not a Christian but I grew up going to church and only stopped because well life is hard and you need money to live. So anyways, it was supposed to be 6 memebers in this group right? They represented 6 wings. One thing being broken or ruined can cause chaos. Garam is that broken wing that left that ended up causing chaos. With Fearless they could have been just trying to tell a story. I personally think that the story they are telling now with Unforgiven and even Antifragile represent humans in every day life. We constantly go against god and we are sinners. We rebel against him and say we aren’t believers. Don’t start a hate train over one video y’all.
she stated in the video that Christianity isn't the only thing that le sserafim's music symbolizes. its just the use of religious symbols that come off as offensive. like the bp mv that had a scene deleted bc of a Hindu god on the floor, the mv wasn't focused on degrading the god, but it was the fact that they used that kind of symbolism to represent that. or NCT's mv close to the mosque. Islam wasn't what NCT was going for, but it was the fact that they were using it as symbolism for something else. le sserafim's music def represents many things, but using highly sacred religious symbols is definitely not it. this isn't a hate train for le sserafim, but a wake-up call to christians who blatantly deny and tolerate such mockery of Christianity. all the things you have said are being disproved in the video. just because this video accidentally caused a hate train doesn't mean that this was the intent. Cheryl literally said at the end of the video to "forgive and move on", forgive being the KEY word here. art is what you interpret it to be, but that doesn't mean its an objective truth. there are many objective truths in the world, but interpretation is def not one of them. to christians, what le sserafim did was, in one way artistic expression, and in the other way, artistic expression using sacred symbols of religion that should never be used in vain.
@@loopy-q1h True and just like you said about Cheryl’s video they probably aren’t even trying to mock Christianity. That might not be the intention but that is how some people are taking it as. Not everyone is just going to ‘forgive and move on’ because of the fact that people interpret things differently. They could just be trying to tell a story though and there’s nothing wrong with doing that to bring light to how we are in every day life because their lyrics, the videos, everything they depict in those mvs are how we are as humans. We should stop judging everything how we see it because we don’t have eyes of god. We should look at things like this in a deeper way if we really care so deeply about it.
@@jazzyedwards3871 i think ur still forgetting the fact that le sserafim's music videos always include at least one biblical symbol. the fact still remains that le sserafim is using god's name in vain, representing sinful desires with a holy symbol. either way, religion isn't to be taken lightly, and le sserafim did that. the meaning can be debated a million different ways, but that doesn't negate the fact that le sserafim offended Christians by misusing and "dirtying" their sacred symbols
I loved how you ended this video 😍🍀
This video has a huge HUGE blind spot, which is disappointing given how many videos you make stressing the importance of context. Specifically, the really significant role Christianity had played in Korean culture. It’s not just a popular religion there, it was also something that got heavily intertwined with resistance against Japanese occupation. It’s also something that’s associated with intellectuals in Korea, and intellectuals (who are devout Christians!) using Christian imagery in provocative ways is a practice literally older than the consolidation of the Bible itself.
Not saying the creative director of Le Sserafim is the next Margery of Kempe or Boethius or the writer of Revelation or whatever. But I also think god and people’s faith in god should be strong enough to withstand a little pg-13 imagery and idols playing pretend (and I think this about all religions too btw).
Your point does not make sense, christianity is a popular religion in Korea, but if anything that makes it worse. Of course people can use the image of christianity however they please, but when this happens it should be acceptable to critique it, much like we see with Hindu and Islam. Le Sserafim can do an angels and demons concept fine, but Christians are allowed to be upset by that.
Who isn’t allowing Christians to be upset? Some Christians are upset, other people (including other Christians) are not. Sometimes the latter group are clearly just defending their faves no matter what, but there are others who are aware of the long history of Christians using the biblical imagery in art.
And everyone is “allowed” to say these things because that’s how we learn from each other. Conversation isn’t just someone preaching to someone. It’s shocking I know, but sometimes people will say things, and other people will disagree with them. Someone disagreeing with you isn’t making it illegal for you to say that you find the video disrespectful. You disagreeing with me isn’t preventing me from sharing my opinion.
@@alicey-m6y literally all the people saying that it’s not a big deal and Christian’s need to get over it. Literally all the people excusing it and not treating it the same as other religions. You know the whole reason the video was made in the first place
Also I literally don’t know why you are acting like I said people don’t get an opinion just that actions have consequences and that an acceptable consequence for using religious imagery opens you up to criticism on the basis of religion. Once again Le Sheraton can do what they want but people have a right to be upset by that.
this is shocking 😲 I'm not a big fan of lessera so I wasn't aware that their lore and concept were THIS DEEP rooted into religion, it's not just them having a MV in a church, their whole storyline and meaning behind are messed up 😮 hybe/source are wild
I also can't belive.
Kpop is so demonic.
YES CHERYL I MISSED YOU
this is discussion is pointless , if y"all didn't want them to film in a church, u should blame the church for allowing ppl to film in it!
precisely. this is different bc in america christians are wayyy more lax vs in her country. she has the right to criticize and not support and i think her bringing this up is a really good for discussion. But I will say since she's not american i can understand why shes confused and should simply withdraw support in the end with lesserafim since this is their concept being greenlit in america
I think that for a lot of believers it goes a little beyond just the church case as she pointed out in this video, but I don't mean no hate towards the lsf girls whatsoever
but lsf isn't allowed to mock Christianity
@@lupswon this is absolutely not a mockery of christianity
@@slehbencheikh2950 can u tell me what it is then
religion is not a concept is my take on this.
And what is it? It's an ideology. Why can't an ideology be a concept?
@@lavistelle6031 a religion isn't an ideology, the definition is literally "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods" or "a particular system of faith and worship". A religion doesn't apply well to a concept or even a "esthetisation". We can define it, not conceptualize it. Maybe if your English is good, take a look at the works of Emile Durkheim or Max Lynn Stackhouse:)
@@gaellelm6678 Why doesn't it apply well to concepts? Religion has been represented in art for as long as humans have existed. Is it only a problem when the art is criticizing the religion and not worshipping the God? What about songs like "Take me to Church" by Hozier then?
Also, religion is not just believing in God, it's also following his moral code and agreeing with his ideas. If you are a religious you see the moral code and ideas as something sacred that cannot be questioned, but the non religious people don't see them as sacred and can and WILL criticize it. Saying "no you can't do that" is censorship.
The idea behind Le Sserafim concept was the idea that Satan was right in rebelling against God. Why can't this be a concept? Why is it wrong? Explain it, explain why it's disrespectful
@@lavistelle6031 maybe it's my bad, but since you had written 'concept' without an 's' a thought you talk about the idea of a religion, not an "concept in art".
And yes art always had taked inspiration from religion, some work were also super critical of religions, but except in philosophy, most of these critics were towards the practice of the religion, not the religion itself.
Well, even here your example with Hozier don't work the same than in le serafim case, since it's not an attack on Christianity as a all ( in its essence, Hozier don't put in question the concept/idea of a religion and its core) but some practices of the believers which exceed from the core/canon of the religion ( so here the bullying of gays, even killing committed by Christians on the community), thus its not attacking the representation of god (directly at least). So it's very different from le sserafim which mock the core of the religion ( so mocking the sacrifice of Jesus by wearing crowns, sacrifice which is the most essential part of the system of belief for Christian).
Once again, if you're interested in the topic of religion (and it's definition) please look after the two names I already give you.
P.s : no need to be this aggressive, it's just a comment section. Have a good day or night :)
@@gaellelm6678Sorry if I sounded aggressive, not my intention.
Idon't agree on Hozier. What you say is the mv, but the lyrics is an attack on some of the fundamental ideas of Christianity like "being born sick", "only then I'm human, only then I'm clean" and "shrine of your lies" and so on. It's all stuff that seems pretty crucial to me when I think about Christianity. To the point that it was called blasphemy at the time (at least in my country) when it came out.
As for Le Sserafim, I agree they are attacking the core values, but here's the question: can't those values be criticized? I have seen many people making compelling arguments against the idea of God being benevolent and in favor of the idea of Satan being right in challenging a God like that. These are all valid ideas made with reasons and not just to hate. So behind Le Sserafim's video there isn't just hate, there are arguments that intelligent people have been making for a very long time. Art should be allowed to represent this and I don't see why Christians get angry instead or engaging in a discussion
Im back after i read about hybes alleged cult associations specifically, Dahn World... Now wtf and why now would it make sense as to why leserafim story/plot is as is.. All alleged tho
Christianity: the one religion the world can disrespect
what
Did you learn history? At all?
Im so glad that you're finally back! ❤🥹
sorry I took so long, school and work are killing me 😭
@everglowup Girlll ! how did you even got time to record and edit a video at this point?! 🥲 take a good rest when you can ❤️
You make great points and I appreciate you sharing this perspective. I have definitely noticed the social rules are skewed for Christians and have pondered why myself on occasion. I think I may have a better idea after watching your video.
Tbh, I sometimes forget that Christians who are offended by things like this aren't amalgamous to the ones who are forcing their beliefs to be law in my government (where it, as a foundational tenant of said government, doesn't belong).
Worldwide media is heavily influenced by American sentiments. In America, Christian ideals are something that are a battle to keep in the Church/at home/a personal thing. It's so severe that we (and as a side effect, the rest of the world) actively suppress super valid voices like yours. It's totally "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" behavior. It's really crappy that all this American separation of church and state drama affects the whole Christian world.
Y'all have a right to not see k-pop stars cosplaying as your savior. That's a reasonable grievance. I did not know they did that until now. That's a bit too spicy even for me, a "Christmas is my favorite holiday but my family hasn't gone to Church since I was 5 and why tf do we say 'Under God' when we salute the flag?!" type of person.
I think videos like this will help people do better. Good job.
oh hey we missed you 🤍
The problem with this backlash is, its not driven by people sincere belief in their faith but by the parasocial obssesion with kpop and using it to fight against a group who is doing better than their favourite group.
Their is a reason the middle east is always in conflict, their devotion to their faith often drives them to violence. Most ideologies have moved away from this method as means to push back againt blasphemy. The so called Christians going on over this has probably ignored every other time their faith was disrespected because its not Christianity that was disrespected but their actual religion, which is whatever group they support that LSF is more successful than.
I am not a Christian, and I consider this extremely disrespectful, concepts that play with religion should not be tolerated.
I'm glad that you're back!
"The only religion k-pop can disrespect".
K-pop have been disrespecting a lot of religions in the past few years, mostly Muslim while dancing and recording sexy concept videos in front of them, also a few times using the Torah. Only a few times, when it was loud enough, had some kind of "sorry letter".
As for the "Some African countries punish by death when someone is holding a bible". It is leaving the part where ANY religion that is worshiped who isn't the one that matter (usually Abrahamic) is punishable by death. This kind of argument leads the listener into believing that only Christianity is persecuted in those countries, which is not true at all.
Now, the use of Christianity as a mockery is really sad, and in the end is said that shouldn't have mockery to any religion.
Luciferianism and other satanist religions (atheist, anti-cosmic, cosmic and other ramifications) are religions too (and not the same). Still some religions that work with demons as Astaroth, Paimon, Asmodeus, Sytry and many others. Some of these ramifications even believe that the Biblical God is the bad guy and the Demiurge. If there was a group of K-pop mocking the devil and spreading its own religion, would have this same level of comotion? Would have been claimed respect or people would "battle" against it? Why one is ok, and other one is not?
Not just mentioning the Greek Gods, the helenics exists to this day, and their gods and religion deserves respect too. It's getting as fictional and adapted, used as concepts and representations in K-pop and outside of it. Damn, not even 2 months ago was used as representation. Why the helenics doesn't have the same level of treatment and questions too? Their religion is still alive, people pray to Poseidon and other gods even today.
Even in the Eve, Psyche and Bluebeard's wife, only mentioned the christian religion and no the other one, if you used the same argument for Eve, it's used the same for Psyche and Bluebeard's wife too, and didn't said it was disrepecting their religions. Even when have reference to Pandora's box, you keep silent, to sustain the argument of only christianity is being disrespect when this group could've disrespect other mythologies by your standart?
It seems like a double standard.
The arguments in this video (just as its title) manipulate the viewer into believing that only Christianity is persecuted as If Le Sserafim only affected christianity.
I don't care about any religion and I don't like any of them at all, but it's kind of strange and make me question a lot of things.
I didn't think the video made it seem as if only Christianity was affected, I believe it was more focused on Christianity as it is the religion she can speak more properly about and as well bc it's the religion that is more present on lsf concept itself, it doesn't ignore other examples. And other than that I believe most people know it's not the first nor the last time of a religion being used for conceptual stuff, but the discussions on where to draw the respectful line I still believe are worth having.
@@tessie4698 "I don't think the video made it seem as only christianity was sffected."
The literal title: "The only religion k-pop can disrespect".
Hidden information. "It doesn't ignore other examples" while in the eve, psyche and bluebeard's wife there's two more religions that are practiced 'til this day.
I respect your opinion, but with the base of what was said and double standards, I completely disagree.
lmaooooo not you saying atheists equal ppl who follow satanic religions?? do your research before saying such stupid things
I don't think it's all that deep tbh with the disrespect and 'glorification'. Some people may feel that way and that's understandable.We're humans, we have opinions. I just think it's a cool concept with little nods to the whole unforgiven, fallen angel idea. I'm Christian, I'm not offended, It's just a concept.
"It's not that deep" to you. TO YOU. for Christians it is that deep, thats kind of the point. A group can have whatever concept they like but when it comes to religion and it gets disrespectful people are well within their right to push back on that.
@@Stay_Zerose yeah, i acknowledged that in my reply.
they are really pushing it with the crown thorns.
Love this video, the double standard is frustrating. It’s crazy the things people feel they are able to do with symbols of Christianity but wouldn’t even think of doing from other religions.
But Christians can do things that people from other religions can’t.
You DON'T believe in God, you belive in church. People who believe, don't need places or symbols. God in their hearts.
I do believe in God, my responsibility is a believer is to walk as Jesus walked. When He found money changers in the Temple, he drove them out and emphasized "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves" It is because I believe in God that I refuse to watch places of worship be turned into mockery for the world. I may not believe that symbolism saves me but when I have to speak up to defend my faith, I take on that responsibility, which I will be answerable to God for. I reverence him enough to do that.
@@minutemoka Jesus is NOT God, he's Son of God.
P.S. simple question, what you think about LGBTQ+ and in*est?
@@Santia5a John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD"
vs 14: "And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us"
Jesus is God.
What's the point of the second question? Like genuinely curious. Are you asking if I think they are wrong or?? I'm lost.
@@minutemoka once again.Jesus is NOT God.
In Bible LGBTQ+ is a sin, in reality is normal .
In Bible in*est is normal(Adam and Eve was only one people,who was created).In reality it's NOT normal.
I seriously hate the term "White man's religion" because it's so untrue but even if it was a white man's religion, that still doesn't mean you need to disrespect it like- wtf kind of excuse is that in the first place???
I honestly did not realise the level of symbolism they had adopted and I'm disappointed because I really did enjoy their music, but I don't think I'll see the group the same way. I think when it comes to Christianity, people just seem to brush these things off without understanding Christians are the minorities in a lot of countries and being so dismissive of what could hurt Christian sentiments is really detrimental in these parts. It really isn't that hard to be respectful of ALL religions
I think part of the problem is that a majority of atrocities committed by "Christians" in the past are viewed as significantly worse than those of many other faiths. What I don't like is people portraying this as if everyone who is Christian would support these awful deeds in the name of religion. It feels like people in general don't have the critical thinking skills needed to separate a small minority of religious extremists from the general population.
I don't know from who you are and so I don't know if your world view is different, because of different events.
But out of my head I can not think about any attack that was because of Chrisianity in recent times, but I can think about some that had Islamic reasons behind it.
I think socialy they had it more bad, like you just needed to look like one and boom you are a terrorist.
@@lucycarlay8547 That's a good point that I do agree with. They've definitely had it worse recently. I think part of the reason I personally think Christianity is viewed more negatively is simply because there are not a lot of Muslim people where I live. Plus, most of my friends and I are gay, so all of us have faced some sort of discrimination from religious extremists, who tend to be "Christian" where I live.
I also live in America, so a large part of "Christians" in the media belong to a specific brand of religious extremism that is generally not well liked in my social circles.
When I'm referring to atrocities, I'm largely referring to the whole structure of colonialism, which itself is inherently built off of a twisted version of the Christian faith.
Looking at it from an objective lens, I think you're right. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment, it really means a lot to me.
@@lucycarlay8547 Outright recent attacks? No. But people (mostly in the US) pushing for laws to be passed based on their religious beliefs, that will impact people not of that faith? Absolutely. It doesn't have to be a terrorist attack to have an impact on others - and atrocities from the past can absolutely still have an impact in the present.
@@RSkies fair points. I am not from the US, so I don't really know that
oh yeah, maybe I should have given some examples. And recent I times I think about the last 10 years 2015-2024.
And I was thinking about the attack were people drove trucks in huge crowds in Europe. In france was a big one and in germany people got killed in a christmas market. Last year tried some this, but got stopped.
Oh and the one french satire newspaper, who got attacked by facist Islamic people.
But yeah, that is just what is stuck in my head, when thinking about religion. Maybe the difference, between Europe and the USA is also probaly because of the Mega churches.
Btw I mostly mean the west of Europe the east is also different.
@@reveluvies2447 yeah, that is also a good point.
I am from Germany and west Europe had mostly deathly attacks from the east Terrorist. So that what got me thinking and also 9/11.
But I also could not tell you if exrtem christian have risen more. Far right yes.
Oh and I also think that the east still has some religion conflicts about it. But do not count on me I am just saying it, and when it is wrong y'all can correct me.
Womp womp
i literally cannot thank you enough for this video. i recently unstanned them after their most recent comeback, but this video has opened my eyes and showed me that their disrespect to Christianity is MUCH deeper than just this past comeback.
Same here!! The very concept of the group itself is Antichrist.
also forgot to mention that christianity teaches homophobic and misogynistic values. no one wants to defend that. but I guess I gotta expect this video to be biased if it comes from a religious person
How is christianty homophobic
Is it Christian's or the Christian doctrine
@@FaveDike someone hasn't read the bible
Homosexuality is a sin in Christianity no matter how much the world changes the Bible and Christianity wouldn't change
Plus I have read the bible
@@FaveDike that's a homophobic teaching dear, therefore Christianity has homophobic teachings which makes it homophobic voila
and Islam teaches what exactly? I don't see anyone who cares to bring that up when Islam is disrespected 😐
Need one artist to take one for the team and pull this with the Islamic religion.
they wouldn't last a week 😭
We take our religion seriously and we will make sure to boycott straight away if such thing happens. Deen over temporary dunya.
Personally, as someone who used to be Christian (though not Catholic), I don't think that Le Sserafim is really a big problem or mockery. They use mythology as a metaphor for society, and their ambition to break out of traditional oppressive systems, which I personally think is fine and can be interpreted in many different ways. While I do think that they (or any other group) should not be performing inside any house of prayer or actively use religious symbols out of their traditional context (like the Ganesha figure in hylt), I don't think their storyline is problematic in itself. There's worse out there.
But maybe that's just on me being raised with the clear notion that many biblical stories are just that, stories. They are not meant to be taken literally, and they are not the core of the religion itself.
i understand and respect your stand, i think it’s not that deep, the concept i think nothing wrong with it and the mv being on a church is debatable but at the same time that place is used for filming so idk, but since im not the most religious person ever i will not speak on it, what i am annoyed with is with kpop stans bc they just used this to throw hate on them like we know not even half of them are christians so why tf are they speaking on it and being offended about it
As a Christian,I disagree with them using Christianity as lore, but im not too sure it was le sserafim's idea, so i don't think they should receive the criticism, the company should.
"its not that deep" to you, for Christians it is that deep, thats the point.
tw: alternative opinion that might make y'all mad
Christianity has not just been used to harm people, the Bible itself has hundreds of verses that allow you to commit literal crimes for the sake of their god, and people have been following these commands for many centuries without "interpreting the Bible wrong". so no, I don't have any sympathy for Christians that are offended by others using their religion to create art. **no religion deserves the privilege to be offended, tbh.** I'm considered a terrorist in my country just because I'm queer, and that's the case for half the world, while you can only be persecuted for being Christian in a few countries
I am so glad that your speaking out on this cuz this has been disturbing for a while now
Tbh Christianity and Christian symbols are viewed differently because of their widespread use in all media and their loss of significant meaning as a result. Angels and demons are often portrayed across mediums, as are crosses, crown of thorns, etc etc. fallen angels are most especially commonly depicted in romance fantasies nowadays as well.
The other religions mentioned in this video also have far more physical religious symbols as well as rules accompanying them. A Bible is sacred to Christianity, as is a depiction of Jesus Christ or God. Christians do not use idols or statues, so we place importance in a church, a place of worship. But an angel? Really? Four-year olds dress as angels for Halloween, and just as many wear devil headbands. They are not invoking demonic or heavenly forces. Beyond that, Christian religious symbolism, both subtle and not, are found across all forms of artistic expression and throughout the world.
Eve participated in the first forbidden act that had ever occurred, which is why her name is in EPBW. It is a statement of fact. They listed famous female historical figures who are known for going to their DOWNFALL for desiring the forbidden. Being uncomfortable with the usage of Eve is valid, but looking at the rest of the lyrics it’s clear the song’s message goes out to ppl who are feeling trapped by other people’s ideals and wanting to break free; which is what’s forbidden.
LSF’s concept is about breaking free of the bounds imposed by SOCIETY, not by god. To be free of fear, to believe you cannot be broken, and to move forward even if you aren’t loved or forgiven by your peers for your outspoken actions. In Unforgiven’s case, a ‘villain’ is someone who is not accepted by society but lives their life even hated by others.
To believe this entire concept praises doing the forbidden against god is more than a leap, it’s ridiculous. You’re usually very good about drawing examples and checking everything, but this is such a biased take.
And even if you don’t believe any single point I make, Christianity in and of itself is never shed in a negative light. The creative team uses symbolism that everyone knows and understands but it is not and was never meant to be negative of Christianity as a whole. There are other MVs with a clear intention of poising Christianity as an enemy, or religious faith as the enemy, but Easy is not one of them. There happened to be a church in that video. Okay you feel uncomfortable with churches in a video? Sure! That’s fine! But don’t make comparisons to other religions that are not remotely the same. They’re Abrahamic! Yes, but the origin of a religion and where it is today are both relevant. Churches are not considered sacred the same way Mosques are. The rites and process are wildly different.
You should be talking about people who are actively seeking to deface Christianity. Easy is clearly not that. I’m disappointed.
I’m 100% gonna get hate for what I’m about to say but I will say it. Please read the whole entire comment before you angrily reply. Not all people have had good experiences when it comes to religion or Christianity, one of them being me. I have never disrespected Christians for their beliefs but my personal opinion on this religion is rocky, to say the least. Songs like Unforgiven make me feel understood, but not in the way you may assume. No, I do not believe in any form of ‘devil’ or satanism or any of that bs. However, it feels refreshing to hear a song that says ‘it’s okay not to be accepted by a certain community.’
I live in a small country in Europe where Christianity is pretty much everywhere. Just last week my sister came crying from school because her religion teacher (yes, religion is a subject here, it teaches orthodox Christianity) bullied her about the fact that she doesn’t go to church every week. I’m saying this because I want you guys to understand my context.
Am I saying that all people have had a bad experience with Christianity? Absolutely not. Am I saying that there is no double standard when it comes to Christianity? No. Did le sserafim take it too far with the easy era? Yes. But I also think that if people are allowed to listen to songs that promote a certain religion (not just Christianity), I think people should also be allowed to listen to songs that may not be necessarily positive about a certain religion, feelings some may relate to. This has been said a million times but if you simply find a song or a mv not appropriate for you and your beliefs, don’t watch it/ listen to it. Feel free to disagree with me but try to be respectful if you want to reply to this comment.
8:56 actually it is lord Ganesha not keshna
Well made video, Cheryl. Thank you very much for this video. I'm so sick and tired of the disrespect of Christianity, and people think it alright too. And most importantly how Christians don't speak up about it and just allowed the disrespect. Anyways, thank you for the video it well made. Thanks for your hard work. May God continue to bless, protect and guide you and your family in Jesus name, Amen.
As an Atheist I can honestly say you ate that sis, I've definitely seen the double standard too. I think the main reason people use Christianity as a punching bag is because they feel its safe too tbh. Out of the 3 Abrahamic religions, one you can't even breath too hard not too with out people claiming you have hate in your heart, and the other might pull a Ava Max and take you head & your heart. (No shade ofc)
Plus, at least coming from someone in the US, Christianity is our biggest religion here so the majority of people how left religion would be from there so that's probably another reason too.
I just stopped myself from typing a tangent, but I wanna say that Christianity is important and it's honestly not fair to you all that you are not being taken seriously and that you are seemly not allowed to defend you own religion.
Finally, someone is saying it all bravo 👏🏾!
i rlly love le sserafim as a christian and this made me upset... i can't see myself unstannint but i would for jesus
Everything for Him❤.
i'm agnostic who grew up in islam and like disrespectic religion is wrong, no matter which one it is.
womp womp 😔
@@erin6967 not enough braincells to understand lore I see 😂
With the cult scandal going on, this video hits different😮
omg youre onto something hold on
Didn’t Christianity steal most of their stuff?
Even if it's still the case is rreally disrespectiful to the religions and if thats the case to the "stealled" religions too and that's it any faith shouldn't be disrespected
not at all pal
@@rivkeg7599 I hope you don't decorate a Christmas (Winter Solstice/Saturnalia) tree, or use stockings for gifts, or deck the halls with holly or mistletoe. Or decorate with eggs or bunnies at Easter (originally called Ostara by Pagans, and Ishtar, by the Assyrian and Babylonians). Christians have a rich history or conveniently placing their holidays around other faiths as a means of conversion and co-opting those traditions as their own.
Yeah, but it's most due assimilations through time. For example, a deity that defeat the death by ressurrecting after three days, who is it? Ishtar. Christianity is like a "baby" religion, is a newborn so it have been drinking from past religions that already existed. But even tho, as every religion, should've been respected.
@@RSkies you thought you had me but i actually don't do any of those things. but even if i did, it has been historically proven (by both Christian and non-religious historians, mind you) that all those "pagan" traditions actually really originated in early Christianity so... maybe do more research before commenting?
hi, love the video. i think it's pretty informative and adds a lot of context and commentary on the issue. but i do have a few points to make tho
1. le sserafim does have certain "biblical" references (i'll touch on these in my next point) and they do have a very rebellious concept, but do you believe these are inherently linked? iirc, they've never connected both of these themes of their concept. like yes, they do have some biblical references and rebellious themes in their name/concept/lyrics, but has it ever been explicitly or implicitly said that they're rebelling against the idea of Christianity or any sort of religion?
2. i don't think the whole "fallen angel" theme is inherently always a Christian ideology. all three Abrahamic religions reference Satan and the fallen angels, no? granted, i do believe Christianity has the most explanations and ties to the whole idea, but don't both Judaism and Islam have ties to that belief? iirc fallen angels were first described in the book of Enoch, which was written about in about 300 BCE? and such ideas have permeated through history and even has references in the Quran, which was written in the 7th century (although the whole concept of fallen angels is debated in Islam, iirc). you could even argue that the story of Icarus (which was written centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, although it's hard to properly date it) is a reference to the whole "fallen angel" thing.
my point is, i don't think it's fair to say someone is attacking Christianity by using the fallen angel because it has ties to so many differnt religions and systems of beliefs. Plus, it's such a popular idea in modern culture; so i don't think using that motif is inherently a reference to Christianity.
3. the same thing i said about the fallen angel motif applies to the 'Seraph/Seraphim' name, because that also appears in other Abrahamic religions. It is mentioned in Judaism and in Islam, I believe it goes under an Arabic name.
4. I also don't believe Eve, Psyche and the Bluebeard's Wife is a dig at Christianity either. All three of those are stories referencing women who were punished/blamed for their curiosities/desires. Psyche is from Greek mythology and Bluebeard is from a French folktale. So the song isn't inherently anti-Christian. like I said, stories of the fallen angel and Adam and Eve are such huge ideas in modern culture, it's hard to say if referencing them is a reference to just the story or a reference to Christianity in itself.
5. you mentioned how Le Sserafim danced and filmed in a church. i'm sorry if i missed it, but i don't believe you mentioned how that would be offensive. was it something they did or is there something inherently wrong with dancing/filming in a church within Christian teachings?
i don't mean any of what i said in a way to attack you or anyone else's views. you're all entitled to having whatever feeling you have on this topic. i think we can all agree that discussions on religion are very complex, so i just wrote what i wrote so we can further the discussion and understand all viewpoints
(P.S. i do think the whole crown of thorns is probably their most problematic motif. iirc Kendrick Lamar also got a lot of backlash for wearing one on the cover for his album Mr. Morale and the Big Steppers)
I agree
I agree as well
the shayitan in Islam is not the same as the satan in Judaism and Christianity. He is not an angel in Islam. Icarus was not about angels or a reference to angel, but about flying to close to the sun bc Icarus did not listen to the instruction of father because he was sidetracked. This shares no foundation with Christian depiction of angels or heavenly beings. Eve was not punished for 'curiosity'. Such generalization misses the entire point and only add to the misconception and misunderstanding of Eve. Also imagine someone filming a kpop twerking video in a Buddhaist temple and see if you can understand the problem. It is an issue in the world, especially the west, to generalize and modge-podge things that are foreign to one's mind, but it would be most efficacious for you to consider why a certain people group would find content produced by a certain group and company to be disrespectful and unacceptable. Look up the symbolism, look up information provided by theologians, and the countless other resources available (that is not the book of Enoch).
kendrick lamar though... is an entirely different story bc in his case it symbolically represents the burden he holds by being held up as the savior of his community when he is a flawed person in his own right. in le sserafim it's different
Hi,
i want to add my thoughts about that.
To your first points: To me it seems LeSserafims concept is mainly about rebelling against social standards and restrictions in general, which is a very popular concept in Kpop anyway.
They use Christian symbolism very much - mostly to a point where it comes to interpretation.
(Like in the “Burn the Bridge” trailer where they burn a book which could - or could not - be a bible or religious text; To be (Un)forgiven is a huge topic in Christianity but can also be interpreted towards other social standards - like stepping on a table in a restaurant and dancing there which they do in the MV) However, since a religious topic - the fallen angel, is the root of their concept and name, the first thought that comes to mind is to interpret it in a religious way.
I agree with you regarding “Eve, Psyche..” Here Eve is shown as one example of a woman rising against “oppressing” morals. I think it is meant as female empowerment.
(Whether she is a good role model or not is debatable - Christians would disagree, I think).
I am mostly okay with these types of using Christian symbolism in general.
The “Easy” MV however rubbed me the wrong way, I didn’t like it. They replace Jesus with themselves several times (like with the “Pieta” image, the Thorns Crown, where I think a cross would be in a church, there is a LSF-Logo).
Posing on an Altar with “cute” devil horns… all that sends the message “I don’t care for or respect what you believe to be holy” very loudly. At least they don't take it seriously.
As for the church as a scenery, Jesus once threw merchants out of the temple and got very furious because they turned a place meant for worshipping god into a marketplace. I think it is comparable, they use it as a way to market their music/product.
So, since I still like the music, I personally turned to the “Garage dance” Version of Easy, which I actually enjoy very much (Chaewon!).
This is clearly just haters of le sserafim fanning the flames using christianity.. thats why i became an athiest.. as a gay person i learned that christians can still be bad people you can go to church yet be hateful and talk behind other people back just for having the same beliefs.. so if you wanna call them out fine.. but do that to all of those who have done the same.. regardles if they are your faves or not..
They think as long as 'they let Jesus into their heart' and repent on their deathbed they'll get a free pass into some eternal paradise when they die. If you need a book as a moral guide, and only act 'good' for some eternal reward then youre not a good person.
Honestly as a Muslim i thought Christians just didn't care. Kpop and other art forms have been using religion for a longest time, however I've only ever seen muslims (and occasionally hindus) calling them out for it, the most infamous example being CL's use of the Quran in a song.
The number of times I've seen people commenting that muslims are "too sensitive" is ridiculous. But religion and faith isn't something to be played around with.
"Christianity is the one religiom kpop can disrespect" is inaccurate. Kpop and all art forms disrespect ALL religions. It's up to the people of these groups to voice their dissaproval.
Change won't happen if y'all aren't vocal about it, but if I'm being honest i feel Christians aren't united enough in this opinion to actually take action (correct me if I'm wrong)
I respect all faiths and seeing religion being used as an aesthetic really rubs me the wrong way
I'm not sure for the Christian of Norh America, but in most of Europe, dancing in church, singing or filming a video here for divertisment is quite a big no-no.
I agree with the rest of your comment, though :)
I think all religions are okay to criticise and manipulate - they’re all social constructs, and EVERY religion has done terrible things to different people in name of religion. That includes Christianity and all ‘non white’ religions.
That said, Christianity is seen with less respect is because it is most well known as being big in places like America, and white Christian Americans are not oppressed. Many other faiths are oppressed in Christian countries, so they are more protected. It’s the same as racism against white people - it exists, but no one cares, and they shouldn’t really care either - because racism against white people isn’t systematic and does far less harm than racism against black people, Asian people etc. we afford these minority groups more protection - just as we afford minority religions in K-pop’s biggest markets - like Islam, Buddhism etc, with greater protection than Christianity, because white Christians in these countries like America aren’t oppressed, they don’t need extra protection. IMO.
So it's ok to disrespect or better sayinf to mock groups and criticize 'cuz they're a major group or what people had done in the past?
The only comment here who got left by someone with an actual functioning brain >>>
@@Annanna22 When did I say it's okay? It's okay to CRITICISE an alter a social construct, and minority groups with less power naturally need GREATER protection. That doesn't make it 'okay' to attack larger groups, but they just don't need the same protections. Again, if I say someone is 'white' (derogratory) in America, it doesn't do any systematic harm to them. If I say someone is 'black' derogratory - it does - hence why minority/oppressed groups gain protection.
But that only takes into account for white/western christians tho. What about minority christians in other continents? Don't we deserve to have a say too?
@@whatabother2001yes but who are the ones approving these? In america people here don't take it as seriously and its very common to see religious symbolism everywhere in things outside of religions even in story telling,movies, books, video games etc.