Footnote in this story: Lotus finally got a new car on the track mid way through 1994 after running ever less competitive updates of its 1990 car for several seasons. At Monza 1994, Mugan-Honda finally debuted a massively upgraded engine after small, incremental upgrades of the 1990 McLaren V10 engine. As well as being a lot more powerful, it was also a lot lighter, featuring an alloy block instead of a cast iron one for the first time. However only one engine was available. Net result was Herbert qualified an amazing 4th on the grid and made a great start. However the old Monza chicane was still there and this was 1994, there was a huge pileup and Herbert was wiped out. He took the restart in the T-car and had a terrible race. He’d been on for a podium in his main car. I’ve often wondered, with a new car and engine, and a good driver in Herbert, would that podium have been enough to secure the additional finances needed to keep the original Team Lotus in F1? As with almost everything in 1994, this not happening felt like a terrible, avoidable loss...
@@pauljennings8432 18 months later that engine took an (admittedly very lucky) win at Monaco. That said though, I seem to remember Ligier getting quite a few other decent results with Mugen-Honda, similar to what they got with one spec old Renault engines and the Brundle/Blundell rosbif axis...
Did some calculations, Lotus finished 1994 season with no points, Larrousse was 11th and last team to score points with 2 points. Had Herbert finished 3rd at Monza Lotus would have been 11th in the teams standings with 4 points. If Herbert would have scored amazing second and 6 points Lotus would have jumped Minardi in the standings and finish the season 10th with 6 points. Had that been enough to save the team? Probably not, but if they would have secured a big sponsor deal thanks to Monza podium, together with 10th place prize money Lotus might have survived to race in 1995. Sadly they basically ran out of money after Monza and it was all over.
@@Rypsolisti back then if you finished in the top 10 you got all your travel expenses, air freight etc paid for, which if I recall amounted to about $6M dollars…they’d have also kept their Mugan engines and probably been bought out by someone looking for a way into F1…
I’m disappointed that Honda are leaving the initial years was very difficult and rocky with McLaren then they found good form and performance with Redbull and Alpha. It’s understandable that they are leaving but I was looking forward to seeing if they could fight for the championship one day. We’ll see in 2021 at least. I also enjoyed their unique V6 turbo sound. It was the most aggressive out of the manufacturers. At least they got some wins and podiums.
Lets be honest Honda leaves F1 because of the huge amount of money spent on engine technology without any use in road cars and failing to have success in the sport. F1 nowdays is just a money pit. However, Honda will continue in MotoGP, IndyCar, IMSA and also in Superbikes. If anyone is to blame for the constant abandonment of manufacturers it is the FIA
Pretty much this. The F1 association complain that so few teams want to join, so few manufacturers are involved, yet there are many more motorsports without that problem. Had their engines been similar to other motorsports, ie a more normal engine, they wouldn't have these problems. Had the race not been for high temperature turbines and ultra fuel efficiency then the Mercedes engine dominance wouldn't be so extreme and the Mercedes team wouldn't be so far ahead. The engine rules are to blame for the problems and predictable results of the hybrid era.
Honda seems to treat F1 as a training ground for their engineers. Now they have 500+ top guys redirected to commercial projects, in a period of profound changes for the automotive industry. I would like to see them race and win championships, but ultimately a company exists to make money.
Ironically, Lotus' 1994 season was with Mugen Honda engines. Also, no mention of the 1960s Honda F1 program when they quit after the ill-fated, dangerous RA302? Also note that Toyota only joined after Prost went bankrupt in '01.
Japanese have a high sense of responsibility and this might help Red Bull (about the possibility of Honda changing to Mugen in 2022) because Honda doesn't want its project to be wasted in F1. Mugen's scheme can help and extend Yuki Tsunoda's hopes in F1 after the 2021 season
all in all Tsunoda is a Red Bull junior driver unlike other Honda supported drivers. If Marko sees something in him, he'll be promoted regardless of Honda.
Yuki Tsundoda needs to finish in the top 6 in F2 D.C to qualify for a super licence, if not it could be another year in F2 or Super Formula or Honda place him in indycars.
whats the point of racing if the rules keep changing . if you check how it goes, they love to trip up the teams that have the edge and its up to you to get a new edge or get out . remember these guys make civics and crvs vs others that make 458's ,clk's and all kinds of supercars .
It is difficult to justify buying a Honda product with the hundreds of millions they have spent on F1, then thrown away. Add to that a commercial partnership with General Motors will now certainly degrade their quality and reputation as well.
wouldn't say it's commercial partnership but more of a technological partnership with GM since after all GM was one of the first to bring (relatively) cheap and high range electric cars to the market whereas Honda only has one fully electric car which isn't even going to be sold globally and their bet on Hydrogen didn't work out in the end.
What if Honda did not leave F1 and Mclaren after the 1992 season. Hypothetically: That the GOAT of F1 would not go to Williams for the 1994 season and stayed with Mclaren. Because of this would not have the fatal crash he had in Imola on the 1st May. RIP Ayrton Senna
I totally agree with the choice of nr. 1 being the decision not to run its own works team in 2000. I used to be a big Jos Verstappen fan during the '90s, and because of that I was totally guttered when Honda decided not to run their own team in the 2000 season. That car had major potential and Jos Verstappen had clocked some serious lap times during testing. For me that totally deserved to be on nr. 1 spot in this list.
nah Lotus was in decline at the end of the eighties and only Senna and Honda lifted that up higher than it deserved for 1987. 88 they showed their true form, 89 was terrible and 90 had little promise. 91 was them using a 4 year old car and holding on for dear life and gave Mika a way in to F1. They had a great resurgence in 1992 but they just ran out of leadership and money.
Also, when Honda wound down its involvement in 1992, it was the start of a 6-year performance decline for McLaren with Ford, Peugot, and Mercedes engines. It wasn't until its 4th year with Mercedes in 1998 that McLaren returned to winning again.
If Honda had not left in 2008 i just think how different it could have been. If Honda had stayed in 2009 i think they would still have won that year and stayed on for a couple more years i think.
If the rumours are to be believed, and I think Ian Phillips mightve mentioned it on twitter, BAR gave Honda a lot more than the 20 mil then passed onto Jordan to encourage Honda to only focus on the one team.
Good video, although I think it might have been more telling if instead of ranking their decisions you had told the story chronologically. Businesses (usually) learn, and there’s an interesting repetition of mistakes that makes me wonder why they don’t appear to have done so. It also made it hard to think through similarities and differences between how the company abandoned both teams deals and the sport itself. But the info was very interesting.
Had Willliams fulfilled its agreement with Piquet, giving him #1 status in 86, he'd have won that title, then the 87 title and probably 88, 89, 90 and 91, since the Honda engine dominated these seasons with ease.
Big fan of the Race but I think you are away from the mark with #2, you can confirm but if I remember the Works Honda motor in 2008 was estimated at 60hp below the front runners, clearly Brawn and the team compensated as best they could with a great chassis which added the diffuser. Similarly McLaren was heading south with the Merc motor well before Honda turned up. But agree with all the points.
The extremely flammable, magnesium-bodied, air-cooled RA302 of '68 really deserves to be on this list. F1 would have been very different had Honda continued into the '70s.
Maybe this is because I'm a huge McLaren fan, but I genuinely think 2018 showed that McLaren was right about having a good chassis and that the engine was the problem. At the start of the year, they moved to a new engine supplier (which requires adapting your chassis which usually results in the car going backwards compared to the competition for a bit) and were in race pace faster than the Renaults, they were always slower in qualifying but they weren't too far off initially. They just weren't able to develop the car, they claimed they had a fundamental issue with the car meaning it couldn't be developed more. The fact they were initially faster then the works team in their first year with that engine is a huge achievement as the works team develops the engine to suit their own car and once they ironed out that fundamental problem in 2019 we saw them dominate the mid-field. Even in the Honda years, they were always surprisingly fast on tracks that weren't as dependent on power, something people conveniently seem to forget. I will say though, McLaren didn't leave much room for Honda to develop things successfully and because they wanted a tight package it did cause more problems for Honda. I don't think it's a coincidence that once Honda left McLaren they suddenly became successful or that Toro Rosso in 2017 had far less engine problems then McLaren. I think the problem with those McLaren's were because of the engine and the chassis were fine, but I don't think it's only Honda to blame for the bad engines, I think McLaren contributed to those engines being horrible.
Listening to Patrick Head's tale of Honda showed just how erm short-sighted Honda's priorities have always been. Having said that BAR's livery might have been given a better look had they a splash of Toyota's colours. It just makes me think if Honda believe in the power of dreams, they sure know how to bulldoze them down into pieces.
Honda's legacy is it just couldn't convert its chances into wins (the epitome of choking under pressure). Despite the budget it had to play with. Sad to see them go really.
Without losing Honda - McLaren would not have exposed it's internal weakness in 2018. They now have a competitive chassis and will soon have the best engine on the grid. Honestly can see why Danny Ric decided to jump ship.
2020 FORMULA 1 Round 11 Eiffel GP Engine: [Wins] Points (Cars) Mercedes: [9] 511 (6 cars) Honda: [2] 278 (4 cars) Renault: [0] 230 (4 cars) Ferrari: [0] 88 (6 cars) Honda, the only engine that has been able to beat Mercedes this year in a race.
With all companies being affected by the pandemic and in turn recession, Honda has made a decision for long term economic sustainability. Hopefully we will see them come back again one day.
Imagine somewhere in a parallel universe, if Mclaren were to stick with the Merc engine and were actually able to make a car that could challenge the factory team Mercedes it would completely write over the 2015 - present seasons because the domino effect would be that Merc and Mclaren having a squabble on which team should be prioritized as they have the same engine ( like the Renault and RB love story that completely went south ) with Ferrari completing the 3 frontrunning teams and possibly with Williams as well during the 2015 - 2016 seasons. And with Force India / RP / AMR, Williams, Mclaren and the Mercedes factory team having the same engine someone as a Merc engine customer might lose the supplier as it doesn't really seem that likely that Merc will be supplying 4 team in my opinion and the losing team has to switch to either Renault, or Ferrari. And because Honda won't be returning it means the RB and Renault love and hate relationship may go the complete other direction and if RB were switch engines it's more likely to be Ferrari although it may become another love and hate relationship with them again just as with Renault, and look where the Ferrari engine is now slower than a Prius in a straight line.
Government targets worldwide about cars are not helping either. I think this move away is a mistake. As well as the new regulations, Mercedes too is changing with Andy Cowell leaving so Honda could have exploited that. A shame.
Addendum to the decision to return to McLaren in 2015: Not only did it affect McLaren as a team, but it also had a huge impact on the career direction of Fernando Alonso. I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Alonso came to McLaren because Dennis persuaded him that Senna-like glory was on the horizon with the McLaren-Honda partnership. Imagine if Alonso had either gone elsewhere or patched up his differences with Ferrari...
Why were there only 12 slots available in the early-2000s? Given there were 26 grid slots available, it would make more sense to cap it at 13. It would have been funny if Toyota had to buy the BAR team, had Honda joined the grid in 2000.
Number 1 might see both Honda and Toyota still on the grid giving Merc a better challenge since Toyota can't enforce the Commercial practice fully instead adapt into F1 quicker.
I think time will show that Honda's recent departure is highly significant. It is an indicator that there is a problem for F1 beyond cost: a fundamental question of purpose and relevance to car manufacturers given the technological direction of road cars. What does F1 mean anymore when we are headed towards electrified, autonomous vehicles?
Loved the video hate the begging for subscribers TWICE in less than 10min… You're the only one at The Race to do this mate why? All the other blokes can make a video saying it just once why you feel like you should beg so hard…?
Maybe if F1 money was split evenly and not biased towards the red evil then perhaps engine manufacturers may feel more inclined to stay... No reason why Ferrari should have veto too
I disagree about the Honda decision in 1999 affecting Toyota. Yes, they might have had to buy an existing team, but at the same time we all know how Bernie loves money and would petition to have rules changed if it lined his pockets. There is no way Toyota would have been refused an entry, so you can pretty much guarantee the size of the grid would have been ammended to allow them to join.
With a World in a recession I think Honda at the time did the right thing to pull out of F1 and if you look at their results in 2007-2008 they were not delivering, when they came back with McLaren I think it was a shame that the partnership didn't work. I like McLaren and think they are a great F1 team and brand, however they should have been more patient with them considering Honda did give them free engines and some money via sponsorship. I think its a shame that they have pulled the plug again as Red Bull-Honda are working well and getting some really good results, Honda should be working with the rule makers and lobby for more / better environmental friendly power units, Mercedes argue that the hybrid engines are good for F1 and for the environment. As for the days of BAR / Jordan Honda had their reasons why they wanted to work with one team over another, it would be cool if Mugen can via Red Bull run continue their F1 program. I think F1 should get a little bit worried that Honda are pulling out again and see if they could stay would be a good option. Their other option is to sell their I.P to another car company but I really do not think that will happen. A good video but it did seem to go back and fourth some what. (Sorry but that's my opinion)
There's also the decision to kill Jo Schlesser by giving him the highly-flammable, nearly uncontrollable RA302, which was the reason why Frank Williams became a cynical arsehole to his drivers and Guy Ligier having the "JS" nomenclature on his race cars.
Im not sure if it's at boardroom level or somewhere else but the honda from the 80's is long gone and the new honda is only interested in training engineers for other projects nd the next time they knock on the door it should nah sorry no room at the Inn.
they really underestimated the f1 hybrid area. because of that they lost a bunch of money and time. of course they had to go on because japanese are not allowed to fail. now that their engine is good enough, they can leave without losing face. i guess red bull is buying Honda IP and together with a car manufacturer like porsche they will move on. red bull is probably the first team that does not get completely screwed by honda leaving.
Honda leaving F-1 exposes everything that's wrong with F-1. Ever go to a race? It's not competitive! The car in 1st place almost always gets a 20-30 second lead and wins the race, I for one want to see a competitive race with every driver fighting for a win on the last few laps and not fighting for a 10th place finish so they can pick up a meaningless point. F-1 IS NOT competitive racing. The team with the most money wins, that's right, it has nothing to do with the driver and has everything to do with money. Honda sees this and it's walking away from F-1 but staying involved in other motor sports! Thank you Honda for exposing the truth, F-1 is corrupt and difficult at best to work with. Formula One is owned by Mercedes, isn't that obvious?
Well, on the performance level, the big mistakes was leaving Williams in the 90´s, they could´ve won a couple of championships with the active-suspension car and even more, since Williams was pretty strong until 97. The only "if", reliability. If they were as good as Renault, then they could have more titles. The other big one is obviously 2009. The car was the best in the first 6 races, this without money to develop the car further. With Honda´s money the car would continue to be good, maybe beaten later by RB anyway, but would be beaten after 6 races, and then manage points in cripple mode like Brawn had to do. The "if" here is if the engine would be as good as Mercedes or if that would change things and they wouldn´t win anyway. But in hindsight, maybe if Honda was bit more patient (like Mercedes was) they could now have a pretty strong team (again, look how Mercedes turned their team into a dominant outfit). Mercedes was pretty smart in the way they did their F1 operation. First only engine supplier, from 95 to 2009. Then when a good base was up for grabs, make an official team. The rest was just finding the right pieces for the right places and slowly build a solid team. Honda is to hasty, they come in expecting to be competitive right away, that creates to unrealistic deadlines to achieve results and then they end up leaving "because the numbers don´t add up and so we must leave because economy and/or lack of results yada yada yada".
Honda are the biggest quitters in F1. They quit when they were on top with McLaren in the 90s, they quit with a promising chassis in 2009, and now they're quitting just when things were looking up for Honda and Red Bull. 2022 would have provided a huge opportunity to compete for a title. Now they're leaving before they give the new regulations a chance, putting Red Bull and Alpha Tauri in the lurch. Honda doesn't care about F1; they care more about profit margins and road car sales more than anything else.
Well, they’re really not “walking away” after 2021 if Marko has anything to do with it. They will still be giving Red Bull the expertise and supplies, just not the Honda name. So they’re still going to be very involved. It’s unfortunate that, once again, Autosport is pushing incorrect information. Also, I didn’t know who edited this but it would be much better if this was done in chronological order instead of jumping all over the place.
They can’t. The only engines F1 can use right now are the V6 Turbo Hybrids they’ve had since 2014. The next change to engine regulations is in 4-6 years.
Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault all supply engines and have a works team.. Honda didn't go the whole hog.. Always had 1 foot out of the door.. I feel Red Bull should of seen this coming...
So basically Honda's history in F1 is to cheer up us Ferrari fans because no matter how awful our management is, it will never, ever reach Honda levels. Thanks Honda. I guess.
"Had it's chassis weaknesses exposed" - LOL You guys are supposed to be experts. McLaren had a decent chassis with Honda. For 2018 with Renault, they admitted that they got the chassis wrong from the start of the year which they corrected in 2019.
@Richard Porter The data was in the GPS, clearly you weren't paying attention. McLaren was near the top cars around the corners but sucked on the straights. Like I said, McLaren had a decent chassis with Honda. In 2018 they admitted that they made a mistake with the car and knew it from the beginning of the year (again, you must've not been following the details). In 2019 they correct the issues of the 2018 car.
This video got it wrong, McLaren's problem in the early 90s wasn't that Honda switched to a V12 and then left, it was their chassis losing the advantage to Williams. They were slightly better in 1993 only thanks to very good electronic aids, but their downfall had already started in 1992. Had Honda stayed, McLaren still would have been shit until they hired Newey.
Except Senna was the one that decided to be loyal to Honda in the first place and it was Senna that decided to go to Williams after Honda's departure. Senna died in a Renault powered Williams, Not in Honda powered car. This "Honda contributed to Senna dying" claim is beyond nonsensical and reeks of both typical Senna Fandom and cynicism over facts.
@@RACECAR If you have problems with people being fans of Senna, thats on you. I loved his driving and has never seen anyone else come close. What is nonsensical is that you make it sound like Senna choose a Renault car over a Honda car, is that what you mean? Honda were not present in '94. (not counting Mugen) Senna was loyal to the best engine manufacturer and that happened to be Honda in the late 80s - early 90s, I have no illusions he was loyal to Honda or any manufacturer or team. He was the best driver and wanted the best car so he could win. Winning was all he cared about. By the time he finally got his seat in Williams, the regulations and the other teams had advanced and Williams was no longer the clear top car. I think Williams in '94 cut corners to gain an advantage, quite literally actually, and someone died as a result. Had Senna chosen another team than Williams, he would not have been killed
@@Calicarver What I am saying is that Honda had nothing to do with Senna's death, if anything that falls right on Williams (especially considering itswell known that Frank Williams has never cared about any driver that drove for him, as he demonstrated when he fired Damon Hill as he was about to win a title for them). At the end of the day, every man is responsible for his own destiny, therefore Senna chose to go with Williams and as you pointed out, he could have still been alive if he didn't. Also, I don't have a problem with being a fan of Senna or ANY driver. The problem I have is the lengths of exaggerating something specifically in line with the driver you are a fan of, hence the idea of Honda contributing to Senna's death (something I have seen said multiple times) comes off extremely in the line of Fanboy to me . I have been just as critical (and still am) of any similarly fanboy behavior towards any other driver (hence why I hate David Croft with a burning passion over his ass kissing of Hamilton) or team because I despise the sheer blindness and ignorance that always spews from it.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Reminds me of a song by The Clash. "Should I stay, or should I go".
Dun dundun duuuuun dundun dun
You gotta let me know (the answer)
Love that song
0:48 Clever to say button while Jenson was onscreen.
The only thing that could make that better would be a clip of him getting rear ended
@@dyslexofficial2798 Yes, lmao
Honda quits F1, Honda team becomes Brawn, wins title, becomes Mercedes, wins a ton more.
Honda engines quits F1, Engines become Red Bull engines....
Then they beat Mercedes to both titles and Albon wins a race!!
@@pauljennings8432 press x to doubt
Oh boy this aged well, its almost scary
Honda leaving ruins teams,thats what we learnt today,except if a Ross Brawn buys it
Yes, started the move that got Senna Killed
Footnote in this story: Lotus finally got a new car on the track mid way through 1994 after running ever less competitive updates of its 1990 car for several seasons.
At Monza 1994, Mugan-Honda finally debuted a massively upgraded engine after small, incremental upgrades of the 1990 McLaren V10 engine.
As well as being a lot more powerful, it was also a lot lighter, featuring an alloy block instead of a cast iron one for the first time. However only one engine was available.
Net result was Herbert qualified an amazing 4th on the grid and made a great start. However the old Monza chicane was still there and this was 1994, there was a huge pileup and Herbert was wiped out.
He took the restart in the T-car and had a terrible race. He’d been on for a podium in his main car. I’ve often wondered, with a new car and engine, and a good driver in Herbert, would that podium have been enough to secure the additional finances needed to keep the original Team Lotus in F1?
As with almost everything in 1994, this not happening felt like a terrible, avoidable loss...
That race was a real shame for Lotus-Mugen Honda and for Johnny Herbert, we will never-ever know their true potential that day, sadly.
@@pauljennings8432 18 months later that engine took an (admittedly very lucky) win at Monaco. That said though, I seem to remember Ligier getting quite a few other decent results with Mugen-Honda, similar to what they got with one spec old Renault engines and the Brundle/Blundell rosbif axis...
Did some calculations, Lotus finished 1994 season with no points, Larrousse was 11th and last team to score points with 2 points. Had Herbert finished 3rd at Monza Lotus would have been 11th in the teams standings with 4 points. If Herbert would have scored amazing second and 6 points Lotus would have jumped Minardi in the standings and finish the season 10th with 6 points. Had that been enough to save the team? Probably not, but if they would have secured a big sponsor deal thanks to Monza podium, together with 10th place prize money Lotus might have survived to race in 1995. Sadly they basically ran out of money after Monza and it was all over.
@@Rypsolisti back then if you finished in the top 10 you got all your travel expenses, air freight etc paid for, which if I recall amounted to about $6M dollars…they’d have also kept their Mugan engines and probably been bought out by someone looking for a way into F1…
I’m disappointed that Honda are leaving the initial years was very difficult and rocky with McLaren then they found good form and performance with Redbull and Alpha. It’s understandable that they are leaving but I was looking forward to seeing if they could fight for the championship one day. We’ll see in 2021 at least.
I also enjoyed their unique V6 turbo sound. It was the most aggressive out of the manufacturers. At least they got some wins and podiums.
The 1999 Jordan Mugen-Honda is still one of my favourite F1 cars ever. :)
Lets be honest Honda leaves F1 because of the huge amount of money spent on engine technology without any use in road cars and failing to have success in the sport. F1 nowdays is just a money pit. However, Honda will continue in MotoGP, IndyCar, IMSA and also in Superbikes. If anyone is to blame for the constant abandonment of manufacturers it is the FIA
Pretty much this. The F1 association complain that so few teams want to join, so few manufacturers are involved, yet there are many more motorsports without that problem. Had their engines been similar to other motorsports, ie a more normal engine, they wouldn't have these problems. Had the race not been for high temperature turbines and ultra fuel efficiency then the Mercedes engine dominance wouldn't be so extreme and the Mercedes team wouldn't be so far ahead. The engine rules are to blame for the problems and predictable results of the hybrid era.
*Sad Tsunoda noises*
Yeah,, i feel sad for him
Right?? Is Redbull gonna retaliate against him??
He still has a chance
@@LSchelvin71 If he can get in at 2021, he’ll be good
Honda has always been my favourite F1 engines.
Honda seems to treat F1 as a training ground for their engineers. Now they have 500+ top guys redirected to commercial projects, in a period of profound changes for the automotive industry. I would like to see them race and win championships, but ultimately a company exists to make money.
Nice analysis. Training ground indeed. Off to FE I bet.
Honda has said they're not planning to do FE now.
A notable omission from this list: the magnesium-bodied 1968 Honda RA302. I’d say it’s consequential as it cost Jo Schlesser his life.
Ironically, Lotus' 1994 season was with Mugen Honda engines.
Also, no mention of the 1960s Honda F1 program when they quit after the ill-fated, dangerous RA302?
Also note that Toyota only joined after Prost went bankrupt in '01.
They still join as a 12th entry the same entry who was belonged for Honda works team, that's why have starting number 24 and 25.
Japanese have a high sense of responsibility and this might help Red Bull (about the possibility of Honda changing to Mugen in 2022) because Honda doesn't want its project to be wasted in F1.
Mugen's scheme can help and extend Yuki Tsunoda's hopes in F1 after the 2021 season
all in all Tsunoda is a Red Bull junior driver unlike other Honda supported drivers. If Marko sees something in him, he'll be promoted regardless of Honda.
Let’s hope so
Yuki Tsundoda needs to finish in the top 6 in F2 D.C to qualify for a super licence, if not it could be another year in F2 or Super Formula or Honda place him in indycars.
Audible music in a F1 video by The Race!
Honda: "We will beat everyone in F1"...
Honda 2-3 years later: "We quit because we cant make the rules we want"
whats the point of racing if the rules keep changing . if you check how it goes, they love to trip up the teams that have the edge and its up to you to get a new edge or get out . remember these guys make civics and crvs vs others that make 458's ,clk's and all kinds of supercars .
I mean they are the first engine to win with two teams in the hybrid era...
@@ciello___8307 I think they've done great. I dont get why Japanese manufacturers keep flipping in and out of F1.
These videos really de-stress me after a long day of labs. Thanks @The Race 🙏🏿
Sincerely, a stressed Med student
Honda: "Let's go to F1 and see if we can suddenly leave and therefore destroy more F1 teams!"
Mclaren fan with a short memory I guess.
Honda's F1 history is like: I'm getting back together with Louis Marsh, her folks just got a kickass jacuzz
Small tools result in a very fragile ego.
This is a reference I wasn't expecting. Good job man!
Now I know whom to blame for 7 years of the most borring racing ever.
Yes, that would be the other teams like Ferrari & Red Bull not doing a good enough job. They're the ones to blame.
Racing is not boring, your fav team is just not winning so stop complaining.
Just ignore Lewis and you'll get quite exciting season.
Like the video said, financial crisis. Not Honda's fault.
@@michaelskoomamacher5652 I only look at the midfield
Nr1 should be called “how Honda screwed a Verstappen twice”
It is difficult to justify buying a Honda product with the hundreds of millions they have spent on F1, then thrown away. Add to that a commercial partnership with General Motors will now certainly degrade their quality and reputation as well.
wouldn't say it's commercial partnership but more of a technological partnership with GM since after all GM was one of the first to bring (relatively) cheap and high range electric cars to the market whereas Honda only has one fully electric car which isn't even going to be sold globally and their bet on Hydrogen didn't work out in the end.
Yup but don’t you like the fake vents on their cheap ass cars
@@sadmanh0 Even worse.
@@paully1227 Sadly they all do it now, and don't forget the synthesized exhaust sounds in the NSX.
Not difficult in the slightest. lol
What if Honda did not leave F1 and Mclaren after the 1992 season. Hypothetically: That the GOAT of F1 would not go to Williams for the 1994 season and stayed with Mclaren. Because of this would not have the fatal crash he had in Imola on the 1st May. RIP Ayrton Senna
Honda. Giving other people a shot at victory since '86
No one:
Honda: "Imma head out"
Just one little addition. Anyone remember the Spirit Honda, driven, I believe, by Stefan Johansen (surely the nicest bloke ever in F1)?
Loved the look of the Jordan’s with Honda
I’ve great memories of Jordan Honda 98/99 thanks for the recap Guys.👍
I totally agree with the choice of nr. 1 being the decision not to run its own works team in 2000. I used to be a big Jos Verstappen fan during the '90s, and because of that I was totally guttered when Honda decided not to run their own team in the 2000 season. That car had major potential and Jos Verstappen had clocked some serious lap times during testing. For me that totally deserved to be on nr. 1 spot in this list.
Good Jordan references. I miss that team
The 8 big decisions: enter, leave, enter, leave, enter, leave, enter and leave.
nah Lotus was in decline at the end of the eighties and only Senna and Honda lifted that up higher than it deserved for 1987. 88 they showed their true form, 89 was terrible and 90 had little promise. 91 was them using a 4 year old car and holding on for dear life and gave Mika a way in to F1. They had a great resurgence in 1992 but they just ran out of leadership and money.
Also, when Honda wound down its involvement in 1992, it was the start of a 6-year performance decline for McLaren with Ford, Peugot, and Mercedes engines. It wasn't until its 4th year with Mercedes in 1998 that McLaren returned to winning again.
Wouldn’t it be funny if RB does a ‘Brawn’ in 2021 and wins the championship in a ex-Honda engine.
Do you mean 2022? I don't see how they can beat Mercedes before the new rules in 2022, they've been trying and failing the same exact way every year.
0:48 "hit that button" (shows Button). Nice
If Honda had not left in 2008 i just think how different it could have been. If Honda had stayed in 2009 i think they would still have won that year and stayed on for a couple more years i think.
agreed
If the rumours are to be believed, and I think Ian Phillips mightve mentioned it on twitter, BAR gave Honda a lot more than the 20 mil then passed onto Jordan to encourage Honda to only focus on the one team.
Good video, although I think it might have been more telling if instead of ranking their decisions you had told the story chronologically. Businesses (usually) learn, and there’s an interesting repetition of mistakes that makes me wonder why they don’t appear to have done so. It also made it hard to think through similarities and differences between how the company abandoned both teams deals and the sport itself. But the info was very interesting.
Had Willliams fulfilled its agreement with Piquet, giving him #1 status in 86, he'd have won that title, then the 87 title and probably 88, 89, 90 and 91, since the Honda engine dominated these seasons with ease.
I hope a Hulkenberg video is in the works. He definitely deserves some attention.
Big fan of the Race but I think you are away from the mark with #2, you can confirm but if I remember the Works Honda motor in 2008 was estimated at 60hp below the front runners, clearly Brawn and the team compensated as best they could with a great chassis which added the diffuser. Similarly McLaren was heading south with the Merc motor well before Honda turned up. But agree with all the points.
The extremely flammable, magnesium-bodied, air-cooled RA302 of '68 really deserves to be on this list. F1 would have been very different had Honda continued into the '70s.
Maybe this is because I'm a huge McLaren fan, but I genuinely think 2018 showed that McLaren was right about having a good chassis and that the engine was the problem. At the start of the year, they moved to a new engine supplier (which requires adapting your chassis which usually results in the car going backwards compared to the competition for a bit) and were in race pace faster than the Renaults, they were always slower in qualifying but they weren't too far off initially. They just weren't able to develop the car, they claimed they had a fundamental issue with the car meaning it couldn't be developed more. The fact they were initially faster then the works team in their first year with that engine is a huge achievement as the works team develops the engine to suit their own car and once they ironed out that fundamental problem in 2019 we saw them dominate the mid-field. Even in the Honda years, they were always surprisingly fast on tracks that weren't as dependent on power, something people conveniently seem to forget.
I will say though, McLaren didn't leave much room for Honda to develop things successfully and because they wanted a tight package it did cause more problems for Honda. I don't think it's a coincidence that once Honda left McLaren they suddenly became successful or that Toro Rosso in 2017 had far less engine problems then McLaren. I think the problem with those McLaren's were because of the engine and the chassis were fine, but I don't think it's only Honda to blame for the bad engines, I think McLaren contributed to those engines being horrible.
Leaving as there are just about to hit the jackpot! The story of Honda in F1.
Listening to Patrick Head's tale of Honda showed just how erm short-sighted Honda's priorities have always been. Having said that BAR's livery might have been given a better look had they a splash of Toyota's colours.
It just makes me think if Honda believe in the power of dreams, they sure know how to bulldoze them down into pieces.
Honda's legacy is it just couldn't convert its chances into wins (the epitome of choking under pressure). Despite the budget it had to play with. Sad to see them go really.
No honorable mention of Jacques Villeneuve when he drove for BAR?
1:42 This Team is now Aston Martin, which are using Honda Engines in 2026… Funny Stuff
honda’s involvement in a variety of sports makes it difficult to cope in one , maybe that is why they decide to leave the one costing more
Without losing Honda - McLaren would not have exposed it's internal weakness in 2018.
They now have a competitive chassis and will soon have the best engine on the grid.
Honestly can see why Danny Ric decided to jump ship.
2020 FORMULA 1
Round 11 Eiffel GP
Engine: [Wins] Points (Cars)
Mercedes: [9] 511 (6 cars)
Honda: [2] 278 (4 cars)
Renault: [0] 230 (4 cars)
Ferrari: [0] 88 (6 cars)
Honda, the only engine that has been able to beat Mercedes this year in a race.
In life, you can only trust what you control, orwho you are married to.
With all companies being affected by the pandemic and in turn recession, Honda has made a decision for long term economic sustainability. Hopefully we will see them come back again one day.
Imagine somewhere in a parallel universe, if Mclaren were to stick with the Merc engine and were actually able to make a car that could challenge the factory team Mercedes it would completely write over the 2015 - present seasons because the domino effect would be that Merc and Mclaren having a squabble on which team should be prioritized as they have the same engine ( like the Renault and RB love story that completely went south ) with Ferrari completing the 3 frontrunning teams and possibly with Williams as well during the 2015 - 2016 seasons.
And with Force India / RP / AMR, Williams, Mclaren and the Mercedes factory team having the same engine someone as a Merc engine customer might lose the supplier as it doesn't really seem that likely that Merc will be supplying 4 team in my opinion and the losing team has to switch to either Renault, or Ferrari.
And because Honda won't be returning it means the RB and Renault love and hate relationship may go the complete other direction and if RB were switch engines it's more likely to be Ferrari although it may become another love and hate relationship with them again just as with Renault, and look where the Ferrari engine is now slower than a Prius in a straight line.
Hopefully no to the last point, check formula world
Ah. That Wheel House music in the number 1 slot. Whats it called?
Government targets worldwide about cars are not helping either. I think this move away is a mistake. As well as the new regulations, Mercedes too is changing with Andy Cowell leaving so Honda could have exploited that. A shame.
I strongly hope this is the last time we see them in F1
Honda doing Honda things
Addendum to the decision to return to McLaren in 2015: Not only did it affect McLaren as a team, but it also had a huge impact on the career direction of Fernando Alonso. I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Alonso came to McLaren because Dennis persuaded him that Senna-like glory was on the horizon with the McLaren-Honda partnership. Imagine if Alonso had either gone elsewhere or patched up his differences with Ferrari...
and Sebastian Vettel would've left Formula 1 at age 27.
Why were there only 12 slots available in the early-2000s? Given there were 26 grid slots available, it would make more sense to cap it at 13.
It would have been funny if Toyota had to buy the BAR team, had Honda joined the grid in 2000.
"With an engine supplier like this, we might as well have none"
Number 1 might see both Honda and Toyota still on the grid giving Merc a better challenge since Toyota can't enforce the Commercial practice fully instead adapt into F1 quicker.
How many times has Mercedes left? (Depending when you consider to get history of Grand Prix racing to be)
I think time will show that Honda's recent departure is highly significant. It is an indicator that there is a problem for F1 beyond cost: a fundamental question of purpose and relevance to car manufacturers given the technological direction of road cars. What does F1 mean anymore when we are headed towards electrified, autonomous vehicles?
Loved the video hate the begging for subscribers TWICE in less than 10min…
You're the only one at The Race to do this mate why? All the other blokes can make a video saying it just once why you feel like you should beg so hard…?
Don't think I didn't notice you said "Hit that Button," as you showed a clip of Jenson Button because I did. Nice try
Given _why_ they left in the 60s, can you not?
Maybe if F1 money was split evenly and not biased towards the red evil then perhaps engine manufacturers may feel more inclined to stay... No reason why Ferrari should have veto too
Honda have in effect left F1 Five times after abandoning their works entry in 1999
I disagree about the Honda decision in 1999 affecting Toyota. Yes, they might have had to buy an existing team, but at the same time we all know how Bernie loves money and would petition to have rules changed if it lined his pockets. There is no way Toyota would have been refused an entry, so you can pretty much guarantee the size of the grid would have been ammended to allow them to join.
With a World in a recession I think Honda at the time did the right thing to pull out of F1 and if you look at their results in 2007-2008 they were not delivering, when they came back with McLaren I think it was a shame that the partnership didn't work. I like McLaren and think they are a great F1 team and brand, however they should have been more patient with them considering Honda did give them free engines and some money via sponsorship. I think its a shame that they have pulled the plug again as Red Bull-Honda are working well and getting some really good results, Honda should be working with the rule makers and lobby for more / better environmental friendly power units, Mercedes argue that the hybrid engines are good for F1 and for the environment. As for the days of BAR / Jordan Honda had their reasons why they wanted to work with one team over another, it would be cool if Mugen can via Red Bull run continue their F1 program. I think F1 should get a little bit worried that Honda are pulling out again and see if they could stay would be a good option. Their other option is to sell their I.P to another car company but I really do not think that will happen. A good video but it did seem to go back and fourth some what. (Sorry but that's my opinion)
There's also the decision to kill Jo Schlesser by giving him the highly-flammable, nearly uncontrollable RA302, which was the reason why Frank Williams became a cynical arsehole to his drivers and Guy Ligier having the "JS" nomenclature on his race cars.
European F1 organization will play always against japanese honda.
Read that Red Bull confirmed that they have plans to take over Honda's F1 project.
4 adverts in 6 minutes
'member McLaren Honda? Yeaahh I' member.
You put your Honda engine in, your Honda engine out, in out, in out, and shake it all about...
Special entry fee for Honda only.
500.000.000€ would be adequate compensation just in case they change theirs mind's again.
Im not sure if it's at boardroom level or somewhere else but the honda from the 80's is long gone and the new honda is only interested in training engineers for other projects nd the next time they knock on the door it should nah sorry no room at the Inn.
Red Bull Mugen, Mugen Power!!!
they really underestimated the f1 hybrid area. because of that they lost a bunch of money and time. of course they had to go on because japanese are not allowed to fail. now that their engine is good enough, they can leave without losing face.
i guess red bull is buying Honda IP and together with a car manufacturer like porsche they will move on. red bull is probably the first team that does not get completely screwed by honda leaving.
Honda leaving F-1 exposes everything that's wrong with F-1. Ever go to a race? It's not competitive! The car in 1st place almost always gets a 20-30 second lead and wins the race, I for one want to see a competitive race with every driver fighting for a win on the last few laps and not fighting for a 10th place finish so they can pick up a meaningless point. F-1 IS NOT competitive racing. The team with the most money wins, that's right, it has nothing to do with the driver and has everything to do with money. Honda sees this and it's walking away from F-1 but staying involved in other motor sports! Thank you Honda for exposing the truth, F-1 is corrupt and difficult at best to work with. Formula One is owned by Mercedes, isn't that obvious?
Well looks like RBR is gonna try and keep the Honda program going on their own.
Last time they quit its was good for Ross Brawn and Mercedes...
Well, on the performance level, the big mistakes was leaving Williams in the 90´s, they could´ve won a couple of championships with the active-suspension car and even more, since Williams was pretty strong until 97. The only "if", reliability. If they were as good as Renault, then they could have more titles.
The other big one is obviously 2009. The car was the best in the first 6 races, this without money to develop the car further. With Honda´s money the car would continue to be good, maybe beaten later by RB anyway, but would be beaten after 6 races, and then manage points in cripple mode like Brawn had to do. The "if" here is if the engine would be as good as Mercedes or if that would change things and they wouldn´t win anyway.
But in hindsight, maybe if Honda was bit more patient (like Mercedes was) they could now have a pretty strong team (again, look how Mercedes turned their team into a dominant outfit). Mercedes was pretty smart in the way they did their F1 operation. First only engine supplier, from 95 to 2009. Then when a good base was up for grabs, make an official team. The rest was just finding the right pieces for the right places and slowly build a solid team. Honda is to hasty, they come in expecting to be competitive right away, that creates to unrealistic deadlines to achieve results and then they end up leaving "because the numbers don´t add up and so we must leave because economy and/or lack of results yada yada yada".
Honda are the biggest quitters in F1. They quit when they were on top with McLaren in the 90s, they quit with a promising chassis in 2009, and now they're quitting just when things were looking up for Honda and Red Bull. 2022 would have provided a huge opportunity to compete for a title. Now they're leaving before they give the new regulations a chance, putting Red Bull and Alpha Tauri in the lurch. Honda doesn't care about F1; they care more about profit margins and road car sales more than anything else.
I suppose the question to ask is... if Honda engines were leading both of this years championships would they be leaving?
So:
Honda left Lotus = Lotus fell
Honda left Williams = Williams fell
Honda left McLaren = McLaren fell
Still, haters say Honda engines are not good?
Well, they’re really not “walking away” after 2021 if Marko has anything to do with it. They will still be giving Red Bull the expertise and supplies, just not the Honda name. So they’re still going to be very involved. It’s unfortunate that, once again, Autosport is pushing incorrect information. Also, I didn’t know who edited this but it would be much better if this was done in chronological order instead of jumping all over the place.
Would Jenson have won the WDC in 2009 had Honda stayed ??
So... Honda is like cat before closed door at night
I still think VW or a member of their group will attempt an electric/biofuel engine in F1 to plug the gap despite petrol combustion being the norm
They can’t. The only engines F1 can use right now are the V6 Turbo Hybrids they’ve had since 2014. The next change to engine regulations is in 4-6 years.
Also, Porsche and Audi are in Formula E, and even if they weren’t, there are other series they can test in, like WEC.
@@FNTM2k3 Thanks fella, completely forgot that it’s mandatory but that’s what you get with a casual like me
I wouldn't let them back in. Cmon, people
Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault all supply engines and have a works team.. Honda didn't go the whole hog.. Always had 1 foot out of the door.. I feel Red Bull should of seen this coming...
Mugen, come back for Red Bull?
So basically Honda's history in F1 is to cheer up us Ferrari fans because no matter how awful our management is, it will never, ever reach Honda levels. Thanks Honda. I guess.
"Had it's chassis weaknesses exposed" - LOL You guys are supposed to be experts. McLaren had a decent chassis with Honda. For 2018 with Renault, they admitted that they got the chassis wrong from the start of the year which they corrected in 2019.
Says who? McClaren? They thought they had a world beating chasis until RedBull put them well and truly in their place.
@Richard Porter The data was in the GPS, clearly you weren't paying attention. McLaren was near the top cars around the corners but sucked on the straights. Like I said, McLaren had a decent chassis with Honda. In 2018 they admitted that they made a mistake with the car and knew it from the beginning of the year (again, you must've not been following the details). In 2019 they correct the issues of the 2018 car.
I wouldn't be surprised if Honda chooses to return to F1 in 2023
I really hope.🙏🏻 F1 without Honda is a sad story
Yes and hope it has brawn like end: they win championship and they regret again
Hondas decision to exit the partnership with McLaren in 1992, led Senna to leave McLaren and into a car Williams built that killed him.
This video got it wrong, McLaren's problem in the early 90s wasn't that Honda switched to a V12 and then left, it was their chassis losing the advantage to Williams. They were slightly better in 1993 only thanks to very good electronic aids, but their downfall had already started in 1992. Had Honda stayed, McLaren still would have been shit until they hired Newey.
Except Senna was the one that decided to be loyal to Honda in the first place and it was Senna that decided to go to Williams after Honda's departure. Senna died in a Renault powered Williams, Not in Honda powered car. This "Honda contributed to Senna dying" claim is beyond nonsensical and reeks of both typical Senna Fandom and cynicism over facts.
@@RACECAR If you have problems with people being fans of Senna, thats on you. I loved his driving and has never seen anyone else come close. What is nonsensical is that you make it sound like Senna choose a Renault car over a Honda car, is that what you mean? Honda were not present in '94. (not counting Mugen)
Senna was loyal to the best engine manufacturer and that happened to be Honda in the late 80s - early 90s, I have no illusions he was loyal to Honda or any manufacturer or team. He was the best driver and wanted the best car so he could win. Winning was all he cared about. By the time he finally got his seat in Williams, the regulations and the other teams had advanced and Williams was no longer the clear top car. I think Williams in '94 cut corners to gain an advantage, quite literally actually, and someone died as a result. Had Senna chosen another team than Williams, he would not have been killed
@@Calicarver What I am saying is that Honda had nothing to do with Senna's death, if anything that falls right on Williams (especially considering itswell known that Frank Williams has never cared about any driver that drove for him, as he demonstrated when he fired Damon Hill as he was about to win a title for them). At the end of the day, every man is responsible for his own destiny, therefore Senna chose to go with Williams and as you pointed out, he could have still been alive if he didn't.
Also, I don't have a problem with being a fan of Senna or ANY driver. The problem I have is the lengths of exaggerating something specifically in line with the driver you are a fan of, hence the idea of Honda contributing to Senna's death (something I have seen said multiple times) comes off extremely in the line of Fanboy to me . I have been just as critical (and still am) of any similarly fanboy behavior towards any other driver (hence why I hate David Croft with a burning passion over his ass kissing of Hamilton) or team because I despise the sheer blindness and ignorance that always spews from it.