The South Tyrol Question
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
- This Video is about the history of South Tyrol (Südtirol) and its political situation over the years. Today is South Tyrol, with its capital of Bozen, a part of Italy. But before World War 1 it was a part of Austria-Hungary and other German speaking empires, which explains why the majority of its population is still ethnically German to this day.
Sources (mostly):
www.uibk.ac.at... and www.wikipedia.org
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Correction @ 12:59: The numbers for the Italian speaking poll should be the other way around. 22% favor secession, 78% reject it. Sorry for that mistake!
yeah... for a second i was like, "what Italians wanna leave italy even more than germans"? xD
South Tyrol was made italian in the treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye, not Versailles :)
You are right of course, the treaty of Versailles was the peace treaty with the German, not the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Sorry for that!
@@metisdocumentaries actually it was two treaties for the empire. On for Austria and one for Hungary. Nice video 😊
In fairness, compared to the way Alsace-Lorraine was treated by France and the brutal expulsions imposed by Poland, Russia and Czechia on the eastern German lands and Sudetenland, South Tyrol has been pretty well treated. People there have kept a lot of cultural and political autonomy.
Like people should be treated!
Yes!
"well treated" in the last few centuries. Of course they were not hunted down like German speakers in other regions, but they faced a lot of horrible discrimination, especially under mussolini
Das Schönste auf der Welt, ist mein Tyroler Land. Mit seinen steilen Höhen, mit seiner Felsenwand. Tirolerland, wie bist du schön, so schön, wer weiß ob wir uns wiedersehen.
Nein, ich denke nicht so. Kaffee?
Dia Ithaka wern des nia vastehn, fia des sein se oafoch z'bled
As an italian I am so proud of sharing my country whit such beautiful and industrious pepole.
I really appreciated this very clear overview as I have visited Sud Tyrol many times for skiing and climbing. As a UK citizen, I see Sud Tyrol as and very wealthy area and very proud people with s Strong sense of identity. I was once in a climbing hut on the Italian'Sud Tyrol border, having lunch, but we were the only group. The little girl of der wirt came to try to play cards with me which I didn't know how to. So I asked a quick question; Bist du eine Italienerin order Oestreichsicherin? She was only 6 yrs old, maybe but replied emphatically, 'Ich bin Sud Tyroler'.
Thank you for sharing this story with us 🙂 The South Tyroleans do have a strong identity, thats for sure!
Very good video! Thank you for describing this topic so well and I hope that this video will get more attention!
Thank you for the nice comment! Appreciate it :)
Thank you Metis for the video, it was very interesting although there are several imprecisions.
I am not Italian and I don't have bias.
I am a historian and an expert in ancient languages, particularly Indoeuropean languages.
I would like to start by quoting Dante, the Italian poet:
«Suso in Italia bella giace un laco,
a piè de l'Alpe che serra Lamagna
sovra Tiralli, c'ha nome Benaco.»
(Dante Alighieri, Inferno, Canto XX, vv.61-63)
While reading this passage I have always found it absurd that Dante refers to Tiralli, and Benaco and called them Italy.
I can’t buy that Dante had a bias against Germans or Ladins.
Ladins. this leads me to my second point.
Ladin was (is?) the language of Tiral. Not German.
The Raeti tribe was submitted by the Romans, and Tiral was their land.
The Raeti tribe was related to the Etruscans not to the Germans.
Point Three. Tiral is the name of the land, Tyrol started to appear from the 1200.
This date correspond to the “Ostsiedlung” (literally Colonization of the East) that is an important point of German culture (and focal point of Hitler’s propaganda).
The Germans didn’t colonize just the est they also moved to other areas.
It is fascinating to find in Italy and further south than Tiral or Trentino other small areas that still preserve German dialects.
I find this topic very interesting and stimulating.
I found your video a positive contribution because it gives the chance to talk about history and old Alpine tribes.
So to be correct we need to say that the Raeti were the people of Tiral, then the Romans, and just later on the Germans invaded Tiral (see Tyrol).
The Italians wanted South Tiral because it was quoted as Italian by many ancient writers. On top of that was the Italian side of the alps (by culture, history [roman, medieval])
It would be interesting if you could further explore the concept of “why the Italians insisted to have South Tyrol?” in a second video.
I hope to see it in future.
Good luck 🍀
Kind regards from an old professor 🍀
South Tyrol is part of Italy for strategic reasons: the idea was not only to include all italians inside the country, but also to control all the alpine passes that lead to the Val Padana, like the Brennero.
I guess this is useless in an era in which the EU exists, but this means that (as the video says) most people don't really care to reunite with Austria.
Being a border region in a bigger country has given Tyroleans more opportunities than they could have had in Austria. Also, I like my Speck and my Alex Schwazer to be italian too, thank you very much.
Nice contribution.
Anyway I think that after WWI Italy get South Tyrol more for strategic reasons than for ideological or historical ones.
We have to underline that on Italian POW first world war was in someway the completion of Italy reunification started with the Risorgimento and which had in Austrian Empire a historic enemy as they used to occupy Northern Italy as far as the Ticino river, hence even important cities like Venice or Milan.
In the reunification narrative WWI had the purpose to 'regain' the culturally Italian cities of Trento and Trieste.
No one ever said a word about Bozen/Bolzano.
But geography is often very important to political purposes, and between Trento and Bozen there are no natural barriers. A way safer natural barrier to keep Austrians 'quite' and Italian borders easier to defend is Brenner pass, then South Tyrol became part of Italy.
I would add that there were even natural resourses to be exploited, such as the possibility to have basins to produce hydroelectric power.
HOW DO YOU HAVE ONLY LIKE 4 SUBSCRIBERS?! Seriously though, this has so much effort put into it, i really liked the video so far! Hope this is seen by more people, i think at the very least you should have like 50k subscribers! Earned a new sub.
Thank you so much! I'm glad that you liked the video 🙂
Thank you very much for this - I had no idea about that the 'troubles' in South Tirol lasted for so long...and up and until relatively recently.
But as you said - this is a good example of how to work out disputes amongst different nations and countries, without going to war. Hopefully we will see more and more controversies and disputes 'solved' in this way. (But, to achieve that we would probably have to rid the world of all authoritarian despots...which in the end can only, realistically be done by the people living there themselves.)
The main way to keep this controversies 'cold', as they litterally caused two world wars, is the creation of European Union
It would be kinda stupid for south tyrol to secede, they get a lot of privileges and that helps their economy a lot
Both Italians and Austrians make good points on why each should have it, but in the end I think it is rightful Albanian land
Hahahahaha
Fascinating how majority of Italian speakers @13:00 in South Tyrol seem favour separation.
I think it is clearly a mistake. Because the total is 46%, so they inverted by mistake the outcome
Your work is really great. I have lived in this area since my childhood, (but I loved Switzerland much more because I also lived there as a child). You have been able to explain the situation very well. 💯💯 👌👌👌
Thank you for your support! I'm glad that you liked the video. :)
Cortina 🇮🇹
These days the Italian government lets South Tyrol speak whatever language they want to..there are no restrictions.
Südtirol has always belonged to Austria, both culturally and historically.
Then Austria lost it. Cry about it
@@er6267 Who lost Istria and cries about it to this day?
You are completely right but due to the aggressive and predatory ambitions of the austro hungarians over Italy they obviously felt like putting the biggest possible amount of mountains between them and the nearest austrian town,and rightfully so.
Obviously today Austria couldn't pose any threat to Italy even if they wanted to but you never know.
@@pogochip5619 that's kind of a meme
@@pogochip5619 yeah, frankly we should go war criming on Croatia and take it back.
The Trentino and South Tirol cannot be divided. They are properly a self governing province within Italy.
THey are 2 different autonomous provinces
@@bibdaff_habababa9645 one region with two self governing provinces. Same point they cannot be divided. Do you live there, or have family ties?
@@robju6054 i live in south tyrol
So to clearify an issue that you foreigners do get confused about is South Tyrol, so I am an italian and basically there are 2 provinces autonomus the italian zone, trent and the german one bozen/bolzano (which is the german speaker zone.)
My dumbass thought the country in the thumbnail was Latvia 💀
Frankly I do not agree to call "discrimination" the addition of South Tyrol to a larger region and therefore the Germanic population living there has become a minority.
Both South Tyrol and Trentino (the 2 provinces forming this region) had been together before post war agreements and even when they were part of Austria-Hungary they were put together in the same region called "Tyrol".
The Germanic population has now become a minority, not because South Tyrol was fused with another province of Italic majority but because it is part of a country that is mostly Italic.
It is pretty normal I would say.
To the contrary, the Germanic population living in Italy has enjoyed far better living conditions and far less discrimination than in almost any other country in Europe.
There is a reason why there are only 2, "non-Germanic", European countries left that host a German minority on their soil, and Italy is one of these 2.
This said, it is nice video and it was interesting to hear the German perspective.
what is the other country with a host of german minorities? the czech republic?
@@shadowderper8930 Belgium.
All German communities living in Eastern Europe were either eradicated or exterminated after the war. Pretty much a second holocaust which affected 15 Million Germans (this is why today there is a German community living in Kazakhstan for example).
France had already deported its German minority living in Alsace after the first war.
Only Italy and Belgium have kept theirs.
Hi @ilFrancotti !
Thank you for your feedback. I agree that the merging of provinces itself, is a normal process and therefore no discrimination. But I think context is important here. South Tyrol and Trentino were merged shortly after Austria and Italy negotiated an authonomy agreement for the South Tyroleans. That meant that this agreement was now basically worthless since they were now a minority in the region, even though they were still clearly the majority in the South Tyrol province. And I think we both know that that was probably done on porpuse.
But I know that the South Tyroleans did some bad things too (for example the bombings), so I think we can agree that both sides weren't innocent. But as I said in the video, I think the situation for them today is great and should lead as an example. It's something that the Italian government can be proud of, because like you said, German minorities in almost all other European countries were banished after WW2. I have to correct you here though, there are more than 2 countries left in Europe with German minorities, for example Romania. (I even made a video about the German minority group there: ruclips.net/video/aQhA1ZRvfgg/видео.html )
I am happy that you still liked the video overall, even though you didn't agree with me on some parts, but I think a healthy discussion is important to see the perspective of the other side. I always try to make my videos as neutral as possible, but as a German speaker myself I rely mostly on German and English speaking sources, so maybe some of them are a bit biased towards ethnic German groups. I apologize if that is the case sometimes and please don't mistake it for my personal opinion.
Have a great day! :)
@@metisdocumentaries Hello,
You are welcome. I do recognise the work you put in the video.
About the history of that region: In Italy, South Tyrol and Trentino were merged in 1919 after the first world war and the region was called "Venezia Tridentina" (Tridentine Venice).
Initially the region had only 1 province (so 1 region and 1 province at the same time) which had its capital in Trento, so it was like a giant Trentino (the German population had no representation back then).
In 1927 the region was given its second province with its capital in Bozen/Bolzano (the one we know today with the name South Tyrol/ Alto Adige) and has stood the same ever since (in Italy).
I wrote "in Italy", because during the second world war, when Italy surrendered to the Allies in 1943 and the German forces present in the peninsula had the de facto control of the country, they annexed the entire region (including Trentino) to their Großdeutschland (specifically to their Tyrol-Vorarlberg department) and region was reverted back into 1 province with its capital in Bozen (in this case it was the Italian population the one with no representation).
The whole territory was handed back to Italy after the end of the war.
Austria, considered by the Allies a victim of Nazi Germany and now independent, briefly petitioned the Allies about the possibility of "South Tyrol" (I do not know if they included the Trentino part in this definition) going back to them but Great Britain quickly dismissed the question in what was called "the 30 seconds decision". So called because apparently they thought about the option for that span of time and then rejected it.
I do not know if the German community is satisfied with the agreement chosen (I hope so) but in terms of taxes paid they are virtually autonomous as they send just 6-7% of their taxes to the central government while another region under standards laws, like Lombardy for example, dispatches 85% of its taxes.
I thank you for your correction, I am going to watch your video about the German community in Romania as, like you, I do find their history interesting (und deshalb versuche ich Ihre Sprache zu lernen).
I share all your ending thoughts. Understanding each other is the bedrock of any positive discussion and the way to prevent any further conflict.
As a 1800s Mexican statesmen, Benito Juarez, once said: "respect for the rights of the other means peace".
Have a great day yourself. Tschüss!
@@ilFrancotti Italy does not tolerate German minorities mercifully on its soil, but on the minority's own soil. These Germans live on their ancestral territory. They did not move to a foreign nation state. Italy is not a host but a robber.
And you forgot the German minority in Denmark.
I found this very interesting. Also, I could listen to your voice all day long. :)
The fact that in 2022 there are still people even considering things like indipendence or reunification instead of moving towards a federalised Europe shows how much they deserve each misfotune the fate has in store for them...
1:37 The Treaty of Versailles was the German treaty, the Austrian treaty was the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye.
Great video! keep it up bro :)
Thank you man! 🙂
Sofort gesubbed weil du super content machst! Bravo und Danke!
Freut mich dass dir meine Videos gefallen.🙂 Danke!
12:30 I'd like to ask who these italian politicians are.
Bozen has the same autonomy (if not more) of places like Sardinia and Sicily, but unlike some regions (still talking about Sicily) South Tyrol pays its bills and contributes to the wellbeing of the whole country.
If someone talks shit about South Tyrol, is usually referring either to the bombings or the Nazi stuff, which seems fair at least to me.
Again, I'd like to ask if the people you're referring to actually exist or not.
These are not my words, but I agree with them so I’ll post them below:
It is worth while to remind the world once again, and especially to remind that small but loud minority of anti-Italian agitators who still wish to protest against Italy, of what the intentions of Austria and the pan-Germanist leaders were in the event of an Austro-German victory in World War I.
At the Assembly of Vipiteno, held a few months before the Italian victory on the Piave, which put an end to all German expansionist dreams and ambitions, a resolution was passed containing, among other things, the following resolution:
"As for Italy, we must have natural boundaries, which shall better defend the Trentino and Austria, and shall join again to the latter her old territories, such as the thirteen and seven communes in the Province of Vicenza. Rectification of frontiers with extension of Austria beyond the Upper Valleys of the Adda and the Oglio rivers as far as the Southern shores of Lake Garda (Desenzano and Peschiera), and, besides this, large war indemnities. The language of the German State, tendency of the German State, and absolute refusal to allow the formation of autochthonous States either to the North or to the South. Unity and indivisibility of territory from Kufstein as far as the canal of Verona, absolute refusal of any measure of autonomy to the so-called Italian Trentino, complete transformation of all the schools, with the introduction of the teaching of the German language in all schools. Inexorable war against Italian Irredentism, on the one hand by protecting and favouring the Germans and on the other by evicting all the irredentist elements, until such a time as the whole of the Italian Trentino shall again have become completely and finally Austrian. No amnesty and no return for Italian deserters. Forfeiture of as much of their substances as they can get their hands on, and use of the same substances to repair the damages of war, especially to cater to the fate of the soldiers loyal to the State of Tyrol."
These were the intentions of those who today pretend to be victims.
For all those who consider the annexation of Alto Adige / South Tyrol (a geographically and historically Italian region) to Italy as a grave injustice, or who sympathize too much with the small separatist cause, despite all the rights and privileges that the Italian government generously lavishes upon the German-speaking inhabitants, let you be reminded once again of the intentions of those hypocrites who today protest against Italy.
According to 'Storia del Trentino: L'età contemporanea 1803-1918' by Maria Garbari (Istituto trentino di cultura, 2003):
"On May 9, 1918, a congress of the Tiroler Volksbund ('German people's league') was held in Vipiteno, in which a resolution was passed in favor of the annexation of Tyrol "from Kufstein to the Veronese gorge". The qualifying points of the document concerned: the firm refusal of any separate autonomy for Trentino; a decisive effort to denationalize Trentino in its schools, in its ecclesiastical hierarchies, in the language of instruction, including the economic and property sector; persecution of irredentists and "Italian traitors", so that "Italian Tyrol will at last become Austrian land"."
Furthermore, has the world so quickly forgotten the long and oppressive Austrian rule over Italy? Have they already forgotten the systematic persecutions of Italians by the Austrians in our own land? The Italian people had to fight four wars over the course of a century in order to gain independence, because the Austrians did not want to relinquish the Italian territories which they had been exploiting for the sake of the grandiosity of their empire.
Lombardy, Veneto, Trentino, Julian Venetia, Dalmatia: here the Austrians ruled as absolute masters with an iron fist and with arrogance, as if they were the rightful owners of the country. And now we are supposed to take seriously the complaints of a few hypocrites in lederhosen?
The Germanics have been trying to invade and dominate Italy for 1500 years (Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Longobards, Bavarians, Franks, Arnulf of Carinthia, Otto I, Henry II, Conrad II, Barbarossa, the Habsburgs; we could extend it to even more than 2000 years if we go back to the Cimbri and Teutons). But now we are supposed to feel guilty about the annexation - or rather the redemption - of a small alpine territory which is geographically and historically Italian, merely because the descendants of the invaders are still living there and are upset that they are not in charge anymore?
Sorry, but what are you talking about in the beginning? You put it as if the HRE was a unified structure or state and Tyrol switched hands from the HRE to Bavaria to the Austro-Hungarian Empire (which didn't even exist at the time). What happened was that Tyrol became part of the Habsburg domain in the late 14th century. After that it was ruled either directly by the head of the Austrian Habsburgs or two seperate Habsburg cadet branches until 1665, from when on it was ruled directly by the Archduke of Austria/Holy Roman Emperor. In 1804 it became a Crown Land of the new Austrian Empire, when the HRE was dissolved. It fell to Bavaria after the Habsburg defeat by Napoleon which handed over Tyrol to his Bavarian allies.
After defeating Napoleon in the war of the 5th and 6th coalition the Austrian Empire reconquered Tyrol in 1813/14 and it remained part of the Austrian Empire until 1918 - the Ausgleich of 1867 did not effect Tyrol as it remained part of the Austrian Empire part of the dual monarchy of Austria Hungary.
South Tyrol was part of the Roman province of Raetia for about 500 years from 15BC TO 476 AD. What happened is that it’s just being ruled by Rome once again.
Wow this is a professional-quality video! Really was shocked when I saw you only had 5 subs. I'm the 6th.
Also I wonder why almost all of the ITALIAN speakers also want to secede from Italy. Wtf?
Thank you for the sub! :)
Regarding the secession polls, I sadly switched the numbers for yes and no for the Italian speakers. 78% of the Italian speakers are AGAINST secession from Italy, 22% would favor it, which makes more sense. I will also pin a comment regarding that so that future viewers will see it too.
@@metisdocumentaries I hardly believe that many Italian speakers think that.
Small correction: South Tyrol wasn't decided upon in the Treaty of Versailles, Austria was punished in the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye
It was not the treaty of Versailles but the treaty of St Germain.
Hi @chrku7919!
You are right of course, the treaty of Versailles was the peace treaty with the German, not the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Sorry for that.
Correction to 1:40: It was not the treaty of Versailles, it was the treaty of St. Germain, a separate treaty. So was the treaty leading to dissecting of Hungary: A treaty of Trianon.
After more than 100 years, there is no South Tyrol question. It's just ITALY.
It's not. It will be part of Austria or Germany once again.
@@AVKnecht keep dreaming.
I think an easy solution is making is Hungarian.
It's obviously Magyar!
🎵 *Horthy Miklós katonája vagyok* 🎵
It's the decision of the south tyrolians if they want to rejoin austria or stay an autonomous region in italy...a democratic voting which gets evaluated by non-austrians/italians and thats it, situation solved.
You don't need a referendum. All they have to do is cross the border a nd move to Austria. Simple!
Treaty of St. Germain
You explained it very good! Sadly South Tyrol didn't get its rights, the tenses are still rising
south tirol is austria.
Then Austria should try to take it back!
come and get it
Fuck right off. I'm italian and I intend to stay that way.
Austria is germany
You can always go to war for it or ask for a referendum
Yo where does your channel's name come from?
2:44
quite good video. Still . Why did you use this flier?
first Dignano/ Dignan is in Istria/Istra, second it has been proven a fake many and many times over.
Mm when this issue came to the UN, my own country, Ireland (then newly joined in the UN and friends with both Italy and Austria) got heavily involved in bringing the 2 sides together. In the end, compromise emerged and now Sud Tirol in a sense has the best of both worlds, with a high standard of living. Ironically, this same approach may be a future solution if NI (which voted 56% Bremain) decides to enter into some arrangement with the very pro EU (and prosperous) Republic!!
I hope that a satisfying solution for every side can be achived in Northern Ireland as well! 🙂
those completely pointless b-rolls here and there are quite confusing and don't add to the video. more historic photographs would be better.
also, the graphic shown around 13:00 appears to be incorrect, claiming that 78% of italian speakers in south tyrol would favor a separation from italy. it should clearly be the other way around.
Hello @BlueHans,
Thank you for your feedback. I agree that more historic photographs would be nice, but its sadly not easy to find a lot of royalty-free ones, especially for topics that are not super popular. The B-rolls that I use in my videos are all footage from the region that the video is about (in this case of South Tyrol), so I think it can be useful for some people that haven't been there, so that they know how it looks like, but I understand your point.
I know that the graphic should be the other way around, thats why I wrote that in my pinned comment.
Have a nice evening.
@@metisdocumentaries Several of the B-rolls showed US-police officers and judges and protestors. These had no connection to the topic and were actually confusing at times.
Oh sorry I misunderstood what you meant then.
But still, stock videos of a person being detained when I talk about people being detained have nothing to do with the topic? Obviously if I had the original footage from that time and it would be available to me royalty free I would use that, but I have to work with what I have.
I appreciate your feedback though and will try to use more historical images in the future.
nice video
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it 😁
@@metisdocumentaries do you have a discord server?
Not yet, maybe I will get one soon, if thats the case I will let you know :)
Südtirol ist Österreich
Thanks. As an proud Austrian, I thank you. I still don’t understand why Italy won’t give us our land back, but it is the way it is. Südtirol gehört zu Österreich. Nicht den Italienern.
Bist du Österreicher?
Nahh!
In todays democratic Europe, we should be able to achieve solutions to problems without violence. I object to the description of Südtirol independence fighters as terrorists. The same applies to the republicans in Northern Ireland. In both cases, they reacted to repression with the means they had. Now, we have peace in both countries because the repressors acepted that all had equal rights, to language and to identity. In both countries, the occupying countries commited terrorists acts. Hopefully, in a united Europe, we will avoid those terrible acts in the future.
wasnt it a part of the treaty of saint germain because versailles was for germany
As an Italian that frequently visits South Tyrol I think the handling of the South Tyrolean question really needs to be a model for any other countries with foreign minorities in their own borders. They enjoy great autonomy, protection of their language and folklore and as a special statute province they also enjoy many economic advantages. So they would have not any advantage in seeking the secession from Italy to join Austria. Also on a greater level, European integration allowed the border between Austria and Italy to become irrelevant for those families whose components are on both sides of beforesaid border. But it made me laugh that more Italians speaker wants the secession of South Tyrol from Italy than German speakers themselves 😂😂
Law enforcement, the courts and much of the infrastructure still requires South Tyrolers to use Italian.
Not to mention there is no expectation or incentive for migrants moving to South Tyrol to learn/speak German at all.
@@Wasserkaktus because its an important language to know to traverse and especially work in the region?
"They enjoy great autonomy, protection of their language and folklore and as a special statute province they also enjoy many economic advantages." Yeah, that´s all true, BUT they NEVER asked for that! They never wanted to be a part of Italy which only got this region as a war prey for joing France and the UK in WWI (for alleged safety reasons of the main crest of the Alps). Furthermore, they say "we live in a safe province, but in a dangerous country". Just compare economic and political stability of Italy and Austria... Even though Austrians have their own troubles as well, it´s worlds apart from Italy. Finally, young ethnic German-speakers don´t really have much incentive to learn your language. What can you offer them, your dolce vita?
@@jansoltes971 bruh who cares
Fascist promises are always empty.
There is no Tyrol question, it along with Austria should be core territory of Germany.
Very true.
Land that doesn't belong to Italy.
Giving Italian speaking Switzerland to Italy and south Tyrol to a new pan German country would be a good trade off
I'd rather stay italian, thank you.
Nope italian public transport sucks swiss rail is better
South Tyrol is to Italy what the Golan Heights are to Israel.
For Italy, a very important defense against a historically aggressive and predatory neighbor.
For Israel an elevated position to be able to "see" the enemy's advance well in advance.
Kompletter Unsinn. Raub und Diebstahl durch römische Hand, über 2000 Jahre. Das dreiste : sie werden nimmermüde in arroganter Form zu behaupten : alles richtig so. Während ein Tiroler nur an Unabhängigkeit denkt.
Artsakh is to Hayastan what Judea and Samaria are to Yisrael. But Yisrael sides with the non indigenous, Muslim, Turkic squatters.
That surely is a dead letter now, seeing as Italy and Austria are now (vaguely) allies. That saying, I can accept that you need a bargaining chip, although it is highly unlikely to go wrong now.
The difference is, though, that the aggressive and predatory neighbour Israel is afraid of, still exists. As for Italy, the scary neighbour disappeared when they got Südtirol. The only country little modern day Austria with its tiny, practically non-existent military might could potentially threaten is Lichtenstein. Certainly not Italy.
@@strahlemann6248 Austria can become Germany in a weekend.
It should be Austrian.
And both Nizza and south Switzerland should be italian, but alas they are not. Unless WW3 happens there's no reason to care, what's done is done.
No
Nono, è Italia.
I'm curious to ask the south tyroleans why they use Hochdeutsch instead of their local dialect?
Don’t care about Austrian and Italian claims, I believe it should be given to Sweden as compensation for the Germanic peoples stealing Swedish stated in the HRE.
are you fr? like ong? no cap?
ha ha ha lol
My guy swedes are Germanic people's they're just not German/Duetch.
You scandanavians should compensate the Brits for all your viking barbarity the English, Dutch and Germans were civilized compared to you lot (the last part is sarcasm)
After all this time it's part of Italy, no point in changing stuff anymore - far to much blood has been spilt and all the nonsense is over.
South Tyrol must be of Austria!
I am the king of Tyrol all that denie that are traitors
The natural border that divide Italy and Austria is the Brenner pass .Doesn't matter what language is being spoken ,
As someone from an Italian background I am of the belief that this region should be returned to Austria. Only fascists and petty nationalists believe otherwise.
Huch, der erste Italiener, der zugibt, da stimmt was nicht. Nationalistischer Hintergrund. Eine Einsicht !
@AssBeater 420 grande palavra de um homem verdadeiro !
That's not true. Italy reestablished its borders after foreign invasions and occupations, even protecting minorities boosted by laws promoting Germanisation and the suppression of others.
@@gs7828 Nonsense. The south Tyrol had always been overwhelmingly German speaking, it was never Italian. The Trentino is obviously Italian, on the other hand.
@AssBeater 420 It would better for Italy to cede it to Austria in exchange for some substantial economic assistance, and would also be a big diplomatic victory for Italy in the German speaking parts of Europe.
There's no question. Südtirol ist Österreich.
and osterreich is Turkey
Seeing how much terrority the germans lost after ww2, you'd assume south tyrol would be returned aswell. The austrians were sort of on the wrong side, but not as an independent body.
The natural borders were followed. It's a good idea.
A very precise overview of the whole unhappy story of South Tyrol since 1919 and its free giveaway to Italy. Despite the savage manner in which the fascists from Rome attempted to obliterate the German language and culture, justice finally came to this beautiful region and people in the last decades. Hitler and Mussolini were also part of a bizarre alliance which did not help the German language. I have travelled many times to the South Tyrol since the 1980s. Soon, in three weeks from now, I am returning for holidays in the Brixen/Klausen region. Auf ihr Wohl, Südtirol!
Beautiful places, but I prefer the sea
2:44 this says Slavic language, not German.
That is true, but since the same rules applied for the German language and since I didn't find a picture specifically for German, I used this.
There is much confusion here, your idea of nations belonged to the XIX century. SudTirol is a predominantly Austrian (why saying German?) region, with a consistent minority of Italian speakers, especially in Bolzano. Even though it was historically part of Austria, it is now part of Italy, and after 1 century many treatises acknowledged this. International right matters. If this principle is not recognized, all minorities in the world should fight for independence. A lot of Swedish live in Finland, as some regions of Finland were historically Swedish. So What? A different consideration must be done for Kurds, as they don't have a State at all. Anyway,, German speaking people are the most respected minority (minority in relation to the whole Italy) in the world, so why claiming for annexation to Austria? Last but not least, also by a cultural point of view, the region is not purely Austrian, and has now many Italian cultural features, structures, and institutions. Sudtiroler and NortTiroler are quite different, and there is even a certain degree of competition between them. Finally, where is the problem in saying that SudTirolers are Italians of Austrian culture and heritage? There are minorities speaking French, Greek and Albanian in Italy, everyone enjoys its identity in the frame of the Italian nation. It is wonderful to have 2 identities, and they know it. There is not strict correspondence between language and nation. As an Italian, when I go there I always speak German, they appreciate, but they always answer me in Italian.
"Sudtiroler and NortTiroler are quite different, and there is even a certain degree of competition between them." What kind of argument is this? Do you have no self-reflection as an Italian? This is called cognitive dissonance. The north and south of Italy are like two separate continents, not countries and they still form one state! How about Germany, the USA, China...huh? The differences between Northerners and Southerners in these countries are far bigger than those between the two mentioned parts of Tirol and hey, they happily go on existing.
"It is wonderful to have 2 identities, and they know it." Did they themselves tell you that? If yes, how can you be sure they were sincere? My own experience is that they mock you and some of them even hate you. Would you identify with a nation that is chaotic, a nation you laugh at, a nation that wanted to chase you out of your own homeland? They still remember that - don´t be fooled by the fact that they are friendly. You have no idea of the Austrian pretence, my friend, be sure about that. They tell you own thing and think the other. And anyway, what would you expect them to say after their historical experience with your nation? Of course they learned to lie straight to you face! Maybe young people are different, but old and middle-aged people have nothing but contempt for you.
@@jansoltes971
1) You might be right and I might be wrong, so let's assume that all German speaking SudTirolers hate Italy; so they dissimulate their feelings and mock me when I spend my vacation there. In any case you completely missed the focal point of my argument, which was expressed in the first part of my text. Kindly read before writing.
2) Your name sounds Slovenian, but independently on that I have the impression that you're projecting on SudTirolers your own feelings and opinions on Italy.
3) Whatever your feelings might be, respect my country. Italy is certainly chaotic, its fascist past is shameful (especially in relation to Slovenia), however it is an important country and a pillar of civilization. So avoid to intervene here with your squalid hate speech.
@@stigdagerman2556
Ad 2., 3.) "your squalid hate speech" Seriously? Because I said Austrians from South Tirol mock you and some even hate you? It´s true. That the old generation have contempt for you? That you´re chaotic? All true. That is a hate speech? I beg your pardon! If it were squalid then I´d use foul language. I didn´t. My speech is, however, raged. And that´s a big difference. Who said I don´t recognize and respect Italy and its contribution to European and world´s civilization? I never said nor denied that! What I was talking about is my own first-hand experience from South Tirol, how common people view themselves being a part of Italy. That´s all. They mock details like slow outdated rail crossing barriers, falling bridges, mafia, cockiness of carabinieri, bureaucracy, or the too quickly changing governments. In every single family I have stayed at, I´ve listened to stories of oppression and fear. I speak advanced German so they open up, they don´t pretend. But as I said, young people are different, they don´t care any more. So no, I am not projecting - I am reporting my first-hand experience of having a close, almost intimate relationship with the locals, working and living with them. It´s pretty different than being a tourist, don´t you think?
Ad 1) I "kindly read" your text even the first time. You talk about that land like a piece of furniture or some other object: "Even though it was historically part of Austria, it is now part of Italy". Don´t you seriusly realise that it was an unjust act? South Tirol is Italy´s booty of war, it is a prize given to you by France and the UK for joining the WWI on their side. You asked for it under the false pretext of safety = the main crest of the Alps. What does this, that or other treaty matter when from the very first moment it was a robbery? A ratified robbery. That´s how the natives perceive it until these days. They were torn away from Austria against their own will and were, quite literally, occupied. Didn´t Italians fiercely fight against the Austrian rule? I´m pretty sure that time´s borders had been ratified as well. And yet Italians wanted to join other Italians. It´s all about context - South Tirol was an INTEGRAL part of Austria violently ripped off. It´s not like Gotsche Germans in Slovenia or Saxons in Romania. And please, I hope you wouldn´t start about the fact that the region used be Ladin before German-speaking settlers arrived there in the early Middle Ages. Because Ladins too aren´t orginal Italics - they are latinised Raetians. By saying all this I want to say, you had no right to claim South Tirol, neither ethnic nor historic. It´s as simple as that. It was an just act. Period. Equally unjust was giving ethnically pure Hungarian territories, directly adjusting the Republic of Hungary, to Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia. That´s my whole point - it was unjust and people still perceive it as such and that´s why many feel contempt. But yeah, you just need to wait - I´m repeating myself now at this point that young people are not interested anymore. Mostly.
And apropo, Swedes in Finnland are not a good example you introduced - they actually don´t want to be a part of Sweden. I really don´t know the details but Sweden once refused to help Ålanders with whatever it was but Finnland helped. Really very vague memory, but the point is, Ålanders remembered it and willingly wanted to a part of Finnland.
EDIT: found it on Wiki, it´s gonna make my post even longer but here´s the excerpt: The islanders' disappointment about insufficient support from Sweden in the League of Nations, Swedish disrespect for Åland's demilitarised status in the 1930s, and some feelings of a shared destiny with Finland during and after the Second World War, changed their perception of their relationship with Finland from "a Swedish province in Finnish possession" to "an autonomous part of Finland".
So here we go. It´s all about how you treat people. Maybe, as the old and now middle-aged people pass away, South Tirol Austrians would identify with Italy. But not now. They really don´t think it´s great to have two identities, as you wrote. However, by that time they would, Italy and the rest of western Europe might be completely overrun by tens of millions of newcomers from entirely different cultures. And these people REALLY don´t care about Dante, Galileo or Pasolini. They have their own stories. So what do the great Italian or European cultures matter if Europeans abort their kids and keep dogs instead, or can´t afford children even though they live in the richest civilization that there ever was? This whole South Tirol talk is, in comparison to what´s about to happen in the oh so great wonderful Europe, a ridiculous cringe. And no, also Meloni won´t help - these new people WILL come, no matter what fences or guards. A living dynamic culture would be able to absorb them, it would be appealing to them like Roman culture to Iberians or Gauls. But how could a culture of childless, godless and depressed people plagued by chronic diseases be appealing? But this really is another story.
Merry Christmas, may Jesus guide us all!
@@jansoltes971350,000 Italians left Istria because Yugoslavia got its spoils of war. The Germans in South Tyrol are all still there. Who is the villain?
@@pietrofarris4681 Are you serious? The local people in South Tyrol were so terrified of the fascist regime that 85% opted to leave their homeland - and we´re talking here about farmers, who are generally attached to their abode and land more strongly than city dwellers. The only reason this whole undertaking hadn´t been completed, were the subsequent events of the WWII. Nevertheless, before it was stopped, 75,000 had left, only one third returned.
Then, even long time after the regime change in Italy, it took almost three decades to recognize proper minority rights for Austrians (and some of them only in the late 80´s).
Also, don´t get me started about the thousands of Slovenes who left Trieste and the surrounding area after the atrocities that should make Trieste "città italianissima". Just one example. And if you about talk "Yougoslavia´s spoils of war", then what else were the Slavic speaking areas of inter-war Italy and South Tyrol itself?
If you reply I won´t read it - I´m tired of these back and forth conversations about nothing. There are some real challenges in this world, not these old sins. Take good care!
Sud-Tirol ist nicht Italien!
Still it is
Langweiligen Italiener !
It was part of the Italic territory before the foreign invasions and finally return to the country after the Great War, when foreign control was expelled from Italic/Italian territory. Be glad that Italy's the most tolerant nation when dealing with minorities which are a product of imperialism. France and others are not so kind in respecting foreign effects.
It’s italiana land and it should be left at that and they should speak Italian and respect Italian wishes
Least fascist Italian:
Josko tried to do that with a Slovenians living in the Julian March… We are still angry at you. Please give those village is next to the border back. You won’t even notice they are gone.
I’m doubtful Italy in its current form or give back land we have the same problem with what we call Venetian Slovenia region, stretching from dressed up to Treviso except for the big cities everyone around there is Slovenian hell, even Gorizia and rest are becoming more and more Slovenian due to cheap house prices.. but guess what they are not willing to give those back
what??the Slovenian Veneto region?
what the hell are you making up??
Treviso???
drugs are bad for you poor idiot!!!
ÖSTERREICH 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
South Tirol should be united with Tirol. Nobody ask the Tyrolleans to be part of Italy.
It would surely be difficult since a lot of Italians live there now too. Will be interesting to see what happens in the future.
They can keep the italian side of south tyrol but not the german speaking side
South tyrol wasn't a german land, the German speaker are invaders of middle age. If they don't like it, they can come back to mother austria.
@@todo1231 The only reason there are still a lot of german speaking minority in Italy is because, apart from the fascist period, they were protected and granted a lot of autonomy and privileges. This same treatment was only dreamt of by the italian speaking minorities in all the surrounding contries: France, Slovenia, Croatia. Switzerland is a different story and goes back to the medieval ages, no one forced them back then, and the the discrimination there was lighter.
If you apply what you say to South Tirol, giving it to Austria, then you should give Savoy, Nice, Ticino, Istria, the Dalmatian coast, maybe even Malta to Italy, but nobody asks that beacause as I said there are no more Italians in all those places (again apart from Ticino). They were not granted any protection and privileges.
I think the only right thing to say is what @Metis says at the end of the video: South Tiroleans/Alto Atesini live a rich life in a beautiful region (I try to go there on vacation as often as I can), with a lot of autonomy, are well respected and nobody threatens them.
If something, the only ethnic group there to have been constantly discriminated and forcefully subjugated through the centuries were the Ladins: first were the Venetians and then the Austro-Hungarinans to try and completely absorbe them.
The Ladins are not Italians nor Germans, and were the true and only native people of Retian descent, an old italic people. They were on the path to extinction, but luckily, under the republican Italian government, at last now they are recognized, their language variants are also teached in the schools. An adult Ladin today can commonly speak fluently 4 languages: Ladin, Italian, German and English.
So please stop selling this old story to "give back" South Tirol to those same german speaking countries who did in the past two centuries what Mussolini did in the '30s: moving foreign people in the region to make who lived there before a minority. Thank you.
come and try to take it kraut
It's geographically part of Italy, doesn't matter if lots of German speakers happen to live there. It's sovereign territory of Italy.
It has been Austrian since the 1300s. Italy has no claim on the territory.
@@Metternich_Enjoyer and it was part of the Roman Republic since the 3rd Century BC, which is Italian. Historically Italian land just occupied by Germans.
@@emperorclaudius5499 Italy isn’t a successor state of Rome.
@@Metternich_Enjoyer Yes it is.
@@emperorclaudius5499 Alright Mussolini.
Ukrain is not learning
this is how the donbass question should have handled...
Putin set up the Donbass "situation" NOT the majority of the folks living there.
@donaldcarey114 the separatist forces that are fighting alongside Russians are Ukrainians that disagreed with the coup by euromaidan protesters back in 2014
@@xander7552 Yes, there were some brainwashed fools, but the vast majority were "little green men" and YOU know it.
@@donaldcarey114 those *brainwashed fools* are still today around 4 million people that still live and work for the breakaway republics
@donaldcarey114 I know a guy that has his mother from Crimea and he said to me that in that region people are overwhelmingly pro russian
south tyrol should annex by austria and austria should be allowed to join the federal republic of germany as a new state ok goodbye i wont be responding to any replies
Their constitution literally says that they can't
southtyrol schould be a own country
Not even in your dreams
If the south Tyrol became an independent country, it wouldn't be the smallest country in Europe. Excluding those micro countries like San Marino, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco. It be Luxembourg still. In area the South Tyrol is 2.5 times bigger .
Tirol and South Tirol
South Tyrol is Austrian as it was before the great War, its population is Austria (both Germans and Ladins) and even a majority of the population wants it, staying a part of Italy will just end up making South Tyrol to Italy what Karelia is to Russia, an autonomous province where the natives are a minority
Last time i talked with my south tyrolean friends (not the old quasi-dead people, the young and middle-aged people) they were quite fine being an autonomous region in Italy, they can learn and speak german (south-tyrolean german perhaps!!), virtually there's no border from Austria and they get to have in the region the 9/10 of taxes they pay. They always said to me that they would prefer to be their own indipendent nation, rather than an Austrian region
@@jecko980 Makes sense, because Austria is cucked, not as cucked as Germany or Scandinavia etc but still quite cucked. Südtiroler still have a backbone and a love for their culture and homeland.
But for the love of God isn't there any Tyrolean who would say a good word about being Italian, and wanting to stay with Italy? Is it really that bad being italian rather than Austrian? I for instance reside in the UK and been there for 35 years, but being born italian i consider myself so. But you guys are born italians; isn't there anything at all that would make you a proud italian? There must be something for Christ sake. Italy is not the top of the crop, but it's not that bad either.
In italiano sarebbe: ma non c'è nessun Tyrolean che spezza una lancia in favore dell'Italia e desidera essere italiano piuttosto che Austriaco?
Sebbene l'Italia non sia una nazione top of the top, è pur sempre una grande nazione, con tradizioni e cultura millenaria e pilastro della civilizzazione europea.
Ma vi facciamo per davvero così tanto schifo?
Yannick Sinner per esempio ch'io sappia, si ritiene italiano. E voi altri giovani del Tirolo?
Hello so im from south tyrol and i was always proud to be a italian. I have austrian roots but i still feel italian and im proud to be italian.
(sorry for my bad english and btw my father feels the same way)
@@lorenzoploner2514
Oooooohhhh...Grazie a Dio...al fin abbiamo trovato un Tirolese e papà che si sentono italiani..
Grazie di cuore per l'attaccamento alla nostra cara patria..
Edit..tranquillo il tuo inglese è ottimo...ciao e ti mando un caro saluto.
@@sergiodario58able wish you all the Best and good bye
Tirol should be a united part of Austria.
Thanks, but I prefer to stay italian