Is Lightning Helix Still S Tier? | MTGGoldfish Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 11 дек 2023
- Richard and Crim break down Murders at Karlov Manor spoilers!
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A father and his son pod cast! I hope Seth is alright tho!
Are they actually related?
No
I'm fine, my power just went out for a few hours right when we were going to record.
Timeless is being made because the no banlist historic events did so well. My fear with timeless is that it won’t be nearly as popular. The no bans historic event was all-access so it was easy to step in and play the most powerful cards without investing wildcards.
I’m personally stoked for timeless and play Temur Tempo with monkey, Uro, and Oko, or mono black devotion with Necro. It seems like it will be an interesting format that I could see turning into a rock paper scissors format.
yeah its unfortunate that we won't get the all access no banlist events, sad to see something everyone can participate in get put behind another paywall.
I think it'll be the exact opposite. Timeless will steal most of historic players. Those that want a lower power format will chose Standard or Explorer, those that want high power will go Timeless.
@@mattm7798 I was comparing timeless to no bans historic event. The event was massively successful because it was all access. I think timeless will be less popular than the event because of the amount of wildcards it will take to play.
I'm glad people can play with cards they otherwise couldn't, especially with Friendly Battle still being broken.
That's the only positive thing I have to say about it
Ah gotcha...well, hopefully they give some Timeless card give-aways to help with this.@@kylejohnson4662
Not gonna lie I'm pretty pissed about Timeless becoming an official format. Not because I don't think it'll be good and fun, but because that means the all-access version isn't going to come back.
The all-access no bans queue was some of the most fun I've ever had with Arena and magic. Getting to play with a bunch of high powered busted cards was AWESOME! Even better than that though was being able to play a variety of decks from crazy high powered mid range to janky combo to fun Against the Odds style decks. Being able to copy a deck from Phil or Seth and play it after watching their videos was so much fun, and opened my eyes to playing archetypes I've never thought about playing before!
Now that the all-access is never coming back, there's no chance for me to play those decks again. And the high powered decks are an absolute joke to try and build in the Arena economy! Staples that are commons in paper like Bolt and Brainstorm are RARES ON ARENA?!?! There's absolutely no way of building a deck for this format without spending an obscene amount of money on Wild cards! And even worse, these are for cards that are banned everywhere else.
Being able to play what I wanted, when I wanted during the all-access made me WISH there was just some sort of subscription I could pay to have all-access to the cards on arena. Instead I'm not spending any money on Arena cause you can't get the game pieces with money (4 wildcards for $20 CAD is ludicrous), just shitty cosmetics.
Once again just like in paper, WotC has made cool older formats expensive and inaccessible to a casual audience, except this time they somehow managed to do it in the one place that's designed to be the most accessible.
They will still do all acccess just less frequently and for specific formats (all-access standard etc.)
I've been enjoying the fuck out of it personally.
The “dossier” treatments are officially awful.
i definitely agree with richard on the case file frames; these look like a bad version of a test card that got ink and coffee spilled on it at a set design meeting. scuffed as all hell
It feels like Richard forgot Vintage exists. I'm not saying Timeless is a slam dunk but he's comparing it to legacy and saying they'd bad things when it's very clear the whole point is to be vintage.
I agree. Vintage and Legacy are very different because of the restricted list vs the ban list.
I think what crim and richard are missing is that in legacy brainstorm is a lot less scary when orcish bowmaster is sitting in the cirner waiting for you think youll get away with drawing a card for anything less than three life.
Timeless is there to be a vintage-like format where nothing gets really banned but only restricted. It's there to have a format where to play the most powerful cards that are on arena and that will be added to arena. It just didn't make sense to have all those cards on arena without a legacy or vintage format to play them in
Alchemy makes no sense. Alchemy sucks, ill never play any format with alchemy cards, they're not magic cards.
@@pablopandolfo8446 cool so your opinion doesn't matter
@@TheEvolver311 I mean matter to you, clearly.
@@pablopandolfo8446 nope I enjoy trolling people who like fighting windmills
Correct. Timeless is similar to Vintage, whereas Historic will hopefully be more like Legacy. In order for the latter to happen, they need to unban cards like Lightning Bolt and Counterspell, but I hope that's where it ends up.
I'm interested in Timeless except for the fact that Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares are all rares on arena. I'm not dumping wildcards on that
and thats by design
@@lordmatz3435yeah designed for Draft it'd be bonkers if they were at common in the draft formats they were in
back to the ol upload time 😄 already listened :D Such a cool 2 man cast!
“If you want to play with demonic tutor you have to craft that”
Meanwhile, everybody who has ever done a draft of strixhaven and had cards that you can’t play everywhere:
Right I was kinda surprised how many playsets of these Banned in Historic cards I already had from drafting.
happy feast of winterveil. what a throwback
Worth mentioning is that they said we will get Modern Horizon 3 on arena.
There might be plenty of cards there that they want to have prebanned in Historic, but playable in Timeless.
This can help to differentiate the two formats further.
I think someone also mentioned that they considered making a Timeless Anthology.
I think it's cool that Timeless exists for those who want it, but I'm personally not that interested. It's also severely hampered by so many of the format staples being upshifted to rare or mythic on Arena. If Wizards wants the format to be a thing, they really, really need to let us craft common and uncommon versions of Counterspell, Memory Lapse, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Swords to Plowshares and maybe Inquisition of Kozilek. It's crap that those format staples are all locked rare on Arena when they're almost universally commons and uncommons in paper.
Perfect way to start my day.
Timeless was made so that they won't reimburse you for any Alchemy nerf or ban.
I am absolutely stoked for timeless, I am hopeful that they let us play with the training wheels off. I want to play with near legacy strength!
Also on the alchemy conversation for timeless, I would prefer it without however I don’t think many alchemy cards will make any impact. There are a few choice ones that could be playable - Crucias, Assemble the Team, Rusko, Juggernaut Peddler…but none of these are going to be meta game shaping in any sense.
I love alchemy cards! I love them so much i never bring them out im fear of them getting worn. So i leave them in my collection, that way they never get damaged.
That Rakdos is sick, going straight into my Be'lakor deck
Quintorius is already an amazing standard deck, can't believe the slander.
I really like the new treatments because they look different, not like the same different bordered treatments we always get
Historic and timeless are legacy and vintage respectively, but for arena, that's the entire thing.
In some fairness, I believe WotC tried to make Battle for Baldurs Gate release alongside Baldur's Gate III for some cross promotion but BGIII's official release was delayed.
(I didn't fact check this, this is from memory)
Aurelia Law Above looks like a cool Soldier commander. I wanna play that. It triggers off opponents, too. That's sick.
I built the new Commander Mustard from CLU and put her in it, he gives your soldiers vigilance+trample+haste and also has a 4 mana activated ability that gives them all a raid bombardment effect for the turn.
I love all these different arts for cards but it's hard to tell what they are on the board sometimes lol.
I gotta agree with Richard on Rakdos, with a name like that, I expect something as splashy as the previous variations.
OMG Crims dog in the background having the rest of his life
Nice to see a father and son podcast.
Richard plays HSR. That's all I needed to learn from this stream. Lol
Aurelia curves with two tokens from Wedding Announcement for double draw on turn 5 without anyything else on the table. Together with Lightning Helix there's a chance for a Boros/Jeskai/Mardu midrange deck in standard.
I would have been so interested in Timeless if it didn't have the Alchemy cards in it...
I'm a mtga only player and I'm very hyped to play Ragavan in 60 card (I started in MOM)
Yep, timeless looks awesome and powerful - - they got it 90% to the finish line - - ditch the alchemy. There's too many overlapping formats. Keep alchemy in hist or alchemy, to differentiate the formats. At first I was like "why another format?" it just seemed like a pointless addition, but maybe it ends up being the eternal competitive format of choice in arena. Richard is right that it's a slippery slope with the alchemy cards. The future adjustability for the alchemy cards / digital makes us magic players uneasy - the fact that they can change them like that isn't great. It's interesting in their own other formats. But Idk too well, I don't play old formats in paper (yet).
Tge biggest problem with Timeless will be the upshift in rarity for the strixhaven mystical archives. So many staple cards like brainstorm, lightning bolt, swords to plowshares are at rare when tyey should be common. For a lot of players this will mean that they can't or won't play the format. Then if you do craft these cards and they get removed you can't play them anywhere else besides Historic Brawl.
Eternal Formats are whales or midsized dolphins, it has always been the case.
Crim you have 2 mana counterspell with Artifacts plus you have thousand year smith plus Wanderering Emperor and Eternal Wanderer
Thought there might be no podcast today! 💀
Have a good one y’all.
Timeless is for people like me who see value in alchemy cards being good and also who also think people that cry for bans are a sad excuse of a player this is the format for mutual suffering and there is something so beautiful about that. Don't come to my format crying for bans or no alchemy cards!
As they release more and more universes beyond... could they make a format that's just universes beyond?
Then you can play Frodo! He's gonna be fighting Spider-man, but still....
Sphinx’s Revelation out here catching strays 😂
The only thing I hope to come out of timeless would be for them to consider the option of restricting cards in more formats. How about we start with restricting the one ring to 1?
😂😂 no not gonna happen
I wonder what Ravinca photographers are like if you’ve got one of them able to take a Rakdos photo so up close like that.
Just wish this could’ve been a thing for new capenna, give me a Jinnie Fay and the Beamtown bullies case files.
It would have actually made sense there
is Alquist good in a Agatha's Soul Cauldron deck maby?
When I heard about timeless I thought it just sounded like Explorer with no banned cards
Honestly Arena should just be
(whatever you want to call them)
Standard - with bans
Alchemy - Standard with buffed/nerfed cards
Explorer - eternal format until it becomes Pioneer and/or Modern
Historic - eternal format with buffed/nerfed cards
Brawl - 4 player commander format
Historic Brawl - 4 player commander with buffed/nerfed cards
The rebalanced version of cards are legal in Timeless. You have the option. You can play 1WU Teferi or 2WU. Your choice.
There's already quite the boros shell in standard between Boros Convoke and Boros Aggro. I still don't know if that means Aurelia has a place but there is a theoretical home
Nah she's costed too high and without an alternative cost to casting, unless they introduce a big ass ramp spell. Boros sticks to the smaller cheaper creatures to go under sunfall, as they have no way to deal with it aside killing them before then. Moreover, Eos already covers the high end slot, and is usually convoked, providing a good body and card advantage.
I think what you aren't understanding here is the context of future cards in Timeless. The List will now be coming to Arena starting with MKM, and it then won't be long until Modern Horizons 3, as in the entire set, comes to Arena. If they just allowed every single card in MH3 to slot into Historic, the format would be destroyed. That's why they're rolling out Timeless now. It gives them a place where all the really busted cards that are coming to Arena next year are legal.
Also tell Seth if he needs help holler at me, i'll hop over from Cuse to rescue him! We dont even have snow up here in Upstate NY so curious whats going on
I feel like they needed Seth there to balance out the negativity on Timeless. It seems like Richard brought Crim down with him on the format
I can't imagine Saffron Olive not kind pointing out how it's going to be a degenerate format. T2 Sneak Attack, T2 3feri or Oko etc...you gotta be doing something either completely busted like T2 Sneak Attack or something that denies your opponents ever making a relevant game action like T2 3feri/Oko etc...
They keep referring to Three Fairy. What do they mean by that? I'm guessing it's slang or I'm misunderstanding?
They mean the three mana Teferi planeswalker
They are saying Three-feri, which people often shorthand slang in writing as T3feri. Magic players really love their dumb slang terms that confuse newer people.
And even as an enfranchised veteran player, they were confusing the heck out of me too, until I realized they were talking about Teferi, Time Raveler. 😂
They should finally put Pauper onto Arena. The meta on it is so different from paper and much cheaper/easier to get into, that it would be worth so much to grow the player base on Arena. But alas...
Also, Alquist as a control card? In a meta full of midrange 1-1 removal? Suuuuure xD
This might unironically bring me on board to actually play arena, that is of course only if they keep alchemy out of it.
Buf if it doesnt make wotc money, it will never happen
@@trenchaus Then again, only wales make them money in the great scheme of things. Also, the more players they hook on the game, the higher the chance someone will invest money into the game.
Not that WotC actually understands that, shown by how there is still no better system in place for duplicate cards and crafting.
Pauper has way to many cards for them to put it on Arena. Never mind that Pauper on Arena would literally just cost them money.
@@TheEvolver311 1) Erm...that's why I said, that the meta would be completely different than paper. There is no reason to actually put in every card legal in paper Pauper.
2) It would...cost em money? That made me chuckle. How so? Explain. xD
I guess I'll try Timeless. It'll let me play Jeskai Control with powerful cards, and then lose to Oko. Or maybe I'll craft Oko just to watch it get Limited wait nevermind, this doesn't pull me back to Arena
“I am a sucker for the typewriter…”- Crim. Put that on a t shirt
Arelia in the pia thopter deck:5 mana, 7 damage, draw a card, gain 3 life
OHHHHHH ITS LIGHTNING HELIX!
20:22 I've been mispronouncing Sephiroth as Sepiroth for 27 years. Oof
I'm going to play tons of timeless.... if I magically come across the amount of mythics I need to do so
Super excited for the Timeless format, but I sympathise with those who aren't as enthusiastic bcos of the barrier to entry.
For those that are poo pooing it bcos of the alchemy cards inclusions, I am just confused. I don't think alchemy was well executed but if anyone plays historic the overall experience is pretty fun.
Also, I feel like the power level of the "as print" cards will push out like 99 percent of the alchemy cards. If you can't stand like one or two alchemy cards per archetype I suppose pioneer will be here by this time next year.
I love how yall were saying how bad this format is but in the most nicest way. But I’ll say it for you, it sucks.
I feel like WOTC doesn't want to do a paper equivalent eternal format because it'll just be the most popular format and dominate everything else. Surely they earn more money out of us trying different formats that aren't quite right, as opposed to just sticking with one.
It's called Explorer/Pioneer and it doesn't. They can't even get the card pool for Pioneer on the client in under 4 years and you think they are going to actually put Legacy or Vintage lol.
@@TheEvolver311 That's exactly my point. They haven't created pioneer yet, because they can just keep selling half-assed anthologies. I don't think there's much incentive to create a paper-matching format. Who said they're going to put Legacy and Vintage on Arena? Literally no one has ever said that.
@henrye3935 well WotC has stated their goal is to have full Pioneer on the client within a year or 2 which is why we got Khans as a full set not a "remix" etc...because they know we need every worthless draft chaft to meet that criteria. And you, you said "WotC doesn't want to do a paper equivalent eternal format..." so literally you said it.
@@TheEvolver311 Yes, a paper equivalent eternal format. That doesn't mean vintage. An eternal format on the Arena client would mean every card printed on arena. A paper equivalent of that would mean every card on arena, without digital only cards.
Honestly, i don't even get the point your poorly attempting to make. Are you trying to say that WOTC are doing their best to bring us pioneer? What are you actually trying to say?
@@henrye3935 when people say paper equivalent they mean equivalent to a paper format.
Why would it make anysense on Arena to say "this Arena exclusive format has every card on the client other than hundreds we've made and people have crafted/bought and will exclude them continuously but isn't an actual format that exists in paper" how does that make any sense
WotC have publicly stated that Pioneer will be the paper equivalent format on Arena other than Standard. And have projected 1-2 years to get all the remaining cards necessary to do so.
Its fun watching Richard grapple with "this Timeless format looks broken af no way they won't ban this stuff"
Also funny to watch him try and be like "players will leave X format for Y format" no, no we won't you just want more Play modes on Arena the same people who are playing Historic are just going to play both Historic and Timeless. Its like when the Goldfish crew said Pioneer was a replacement for Modern 😂
i think the entire point of Timeless is to have a format where fetches are legal -- and I'm here for it!
Just don't ban them in historic. Easier to do than making a whole new format.
timeless = arena legacy
historic = pioneer
there i explained it lol
I’m with Richard - the new Dossier showcase frame for the Ravnica set looks so stupid. I’m sure wizards and magic users are using FOLDERS and Polaroids to keep their records for any crime, come on.
So Ronald would be Chandra right?? 😂
I'm pissed that they prebanned fetchlands in historic. I was looking forward to fetches and bloodmoon. If you cannot tell, I play zoomer jund (boomer jund with Fable, Orcish Bowmasters and Crucias)
Legacy is best format.
The problem IS NOT that alchemy exists. The problem is it being forced on us!
If we simply had an old format without alchemy 99% of complaints would stop.
Explorer crying in the corner 😢
17:21 rev is gonna get Farewell banned
I’m somewhat interested in Timeless… But whenever I see an alchemy card I often just check out. So I’ll have to see how the format turns out!
Edit: Crim started talking about izzet and I’m already feeling the burnout. 😅 Expressive Iteration + Darcy and friends with Dig AND brainstorm + fetches… Izzet was soooo dominant on arena for such a long time. NO MORE PLS
at least the alchemy cards are terrible so you are unlike to see them played most of the time
@@alkhemia23so far no lol, literally every match I've played each player has multiple Digital cards
@@TheEvolver311 Yes, that 1 of Rusko totally counts as multiple cards
@@retributin2849 crusias, the Djinn that taps,cycles,replaces itself and comes into play free etc..quite a few I've seen so far
Timeless is just a scheme to not reimburse Wildcards after bannings right..?
Okay, regarding Helix, it's a lot worse now than it used to be.
Shit, I keep having to comment. Sphinxe's Rev is not good enough anymore
I have 3 guesses as to why Timeless is going to be a thing:
1. No ban went so well, they made No Ban a format, and there is no extra thought put into it than that.
2. They recognize that they've shat all over Historic, and that Historic has been a fan favorite at times. They want to repair it, but as the intended eternal format they have a real difficult time making any changes to it (any ban or alteration they might consider pulls it away from it's mission of being the play-all format). Introducing a true play-all format takes that burden off Historic, allowing them to actually attempt to make Historic fun.
3. They think Historic might be a failure and so they are releasing a new nearly identical format because they intentionally want them to compete with one another. When one of the formats dies at the hands of the players (through neglect), WotC won't get any backlash from the outcome. They can then quietly sweep the loser under the rug.
I hope it's your second point, and based on their Timeless mission statement, that's most likely the case. I'll be very happy if we see an uptick in Historic curation as a result of Timeless' creation.
I don't think the formats compete with each other, Historic is the more balanced midrangy format Timeless the degenerate totally busted combo curb stomp anything goes format. I think if anything a lot of players will craft fair creature decks and find out the hard way that isn't what you can do in Timeless or at least not what you can do if you want to be competitive
4. They're bringing Modern Horizons 3 to Arena and it's going to be full of busted shit that they'd have to pre-ban in Historic, meaning Arena players don't buy the set. Now they have someone to sell MH3 to on Arena.
That's why they make 30 versions xD
With the popularity of vintage cube my bet is timeless is a way to bring that to arena. They have at least some of the power 9 cards already on the client from the Theros event
They have all of them bc there is an alchemy card that puts them all in your deck on etb
@@jamesgreenwood1703before alchemy was a thing, they had a Theros release event which had event decks with some/most them. But you are right they're all be on there because of that alchemy card.
They have done Cube with power before, it didn't do well cause Draft grinders don't want to play a format you don't get to keep the cards you drafted.
Is crim drinking coffee from a Jam Jar
Richard really touches on a facet that vintage, legacy, and edh survive with across paper and modo, if you ever hit the moment of "oh this format fucking sucks" you can cash out. That whole ecosystem keeps things moving, but that doesnt exist in Arena. Oh you used your wilds sorry you're SOL. I think Timeless sounds cool but investment is always a barrier to entry either a money sink or a time sink and arena doesnt let you have any way of cashing out.
It really promotes Drafting as the way to aquire cards for your collection. I have playsets of nearly all of these Timeless only cards just from drafting regularly.
Check out the x files tcg from late 90s; looks like they stole the frame from it
Timeless seems like total chaos. Sometimes it’s OK to just make a fun format. As long as you know it’s broken going into it. I could see it being a terrible format for newer players
Its gonna be either UXx Tempo or Combo you so fast you never had a chance to play the game.
Alquist is a poop. In controll deck, you Don't want to relly on 3/3 body as only body on the battlefield on your side. Controll mage want to have 0 creatures, because there is always some removal on the other side. Always.
Crim are you drinking peanut butter?
This is a format that control will actually be giod in. Historic is not.
Define control lol
honestly, they should just make a format for JUST the Universes Beyond cards. LOTR vs WH4K Vs JP/JW vs TWD. that would be boss. Wish WOTC would figure out that since nobody plays Alchemy, to stop putting their alchemy cards in other formats. like just get a clue that we don't want Hearthstone, MTG edition
I think you guys misunderstand formats in general. Yes, the top end power level gets higher the more cards you add to the card pool, however the AVERAGE power level goes down at the same time. Standard has always been the sweatiest and most tryhard format on Arena, the most beginner unfriendly, and generally the worst place for people who want to play mid power Magic. I moved to historic because that's where you find the people who are there for fun. And Timeless is going to largely be the same, but with even fewer things getting in the way of playing your pet deck.
Y'all bring up Baldur's Gate 3, my question is, why does Hasbro/WotC not give the IP to studios that can make *good* Magic the Gathering video games? I'll say it again, no reason MTG should not be a crossmedia franchise the way Riot has made League of Legends.
At least wizards will be worse with symmetry sage essentially nerfed since it plays as printed
You think a fair creature deck is going to be viable lol😅
@@TheEvolver311 fair xD
@taylormilleman7337 yes UR Wizards in Historic is the definition of a fair deck.
I am not going to spend wildcards on timeless since I am guessing that they’ll at some point create an alchemy set specifically designed for Timeless that will include a lot of new must-have cards that will clap money out of you just like what Modern Horizons did to modern.
Bold take, will it be preceeded by the player community demanding WotC make this set just like we did for Modern Horizons?
Wow i couldnt disagree more with them about timeless. Having played quite a bit of the no ban event the balance seemed pretty fine to me. There was degen stuff but it was weak to interaction. I dont think wotc is going to mess with balancing it. The whole point of the format is to have a place to play the powerful cards on arena that arent legal anywhere else. If people start clammoring for bans or restrictions i think theyd be missing the point. Let it be busted. Thats why it exists.
what if? timeless=vintage, historic=modern, explorer=pioneer and standard=standard? maybe not now but they could eventually morph into those things?
They will not have literal Vintage or Modern on Arena. They will not morph into other formats they will simply be Arena exclusive formats that are somewhat parallel to those formats but distinct and different.
I still dont underatand the alchemy hate, none of the alchemy cards are even that good. Most of the good ones get nerfed into oblivion and there isnt a single alchemy card that can beat cards like swords, counterspell, lightning bolt, or necropotence. Alchemy as a format isnt fun but the alchemy cards themselves arent nearly as bad as people claim they are.
My favorite Standard client made yet another format to push Alchemy I won’t try? Eating good, grabbing popcorn, waiting for it to end like Alchemy.
I hope Timeless does okay: I enjoy _Vintage_ because its the only non-singleton format with a Restriced List. *MORE* formats would be MORE healthy if they had a Restricted List.
Sweet, they added the timeless format! Im sure it supports 4 player multiplayer.... Right?
What is that nasty looking liquid Crim is drinking? 😅
it's a shame that this is what they chose over Gladiator
cant wait to not get wildcards on bans because "it can be used in timeless"
Thats not how bans have ever worked in arena...
What is Timeless? It’s WotC making what fans wanted (all the cards) but also monetizing it the way Arena allows them, thus Alchemy cards are legal.
Everyone has feelings on Alchemy but it’s clear it’s here to stay and that’s the deal you accept when you play Arena - either play Standard or accept that every other format has monetization built in via Arena-print rarities and Alchemy. One way or another you’re gonna pay for the game.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
true facts: you don't have to play alchemy cards. they monetize it by forcing you to craft cards that are banned everywhere else, like Richard said, so if they do tweak timeless you are out of luck
People meme on mindspring even though, it is strictly better sphinx rev. Sphinx rev is stone cold unplayable
I loaded up a Timeless match today with a BR Burn deck looking to punish greedy mana bases. Opponent went first, turn 1 Ragavan. I conceded and turned off Arena for the day. I don't think Timeless is the format for me.
Ngl. Totally random and off topic, but I’d love to work for Richard. Be apart of the fish crew and what not.
Take out alchemy, and I'd be interested in Historic 2, The Reckoning
Also in a standard where lightning strike is playable, helix absolutely has to be playable no question