As a note when you bring up the infinity war moment: I can tell what the writers are attempting to do. They're trying to get that stereotypical comic book moment. Where the hero stops and quips mid fight. The issue is its done super horribly there. It literally interrupts the flow and the drama of the moment. A movie series that does moments like this perfectly? Lord of the Rings. Legolas and Gimili having their little "counting" contest in the middle of combat. The difference between the two narratively is the first one interrupted the drama of the moment to deliver the joke. The second one weaves the joke into the narrative of the moment. Legolas and Gimili never stop fighting to make their banter, and they look cooler doing it. Another character within the same medium to look to for this is Spiderman who makes non-stop quips and jokes while fighting. But he does it while fighting. That allows it to flow into the narrative more and shows that Spiderman is just much more of a 'cool guy' type of character. Another reason the moment doesn't work is it's not really in Cap's nature to stop and banter like that in a fight. Maybe in Thor's nature sure. But Cap's character thus far would show he would be in this moment and taking it seriously. A re-write of the scene while keeping the intention there would be having Thor comment on Cap's beard. Cap is taking on a group of enemies and having some difficulties responds "Kinda busy here!" Thor comes in and assists. Then Cap gives an acknowledging remark about the beard and they continue on the fight. It'd keep the tension of the battle going while still giving that 'comedy relief' that the writers wanted to throw in at that moment. That's just a rough idea there's a lot of different ways you can re-write the scene to inject comedy while not taking away from the drama of the battle.
I think we could have this moment right after Thor's arrival in Wakanda. He would kill the aliens that were holding Steve down, and then personally walk (or fly) up to him and help him get back on his feet, then, while Cap's still on the ground and getting back to his senses, Thor says "I see you copied my style", then, when Steve gets up, he pants and then starts adjusting his shields and says "and I see you copied mine", Thor gives that little laugh, Cap smiles, and they both start taking the aliens around them down
@@Diamonddrake there absolutely are stakes tho, Thor just saw his Kingdom get wiped out before getting in the ship heading to Earth, and, on the way there, he watched half of what was left of his people be killed while the purple giant who leads the army he's fighting in this scene held him unmovable. Besides, he saw his father, his brother and his sister die in front of him, so I'm pretty he understands that he only seems immortal compared to most beings across the universe, but he definetly isn't
I agree, it’s not really their character lol completely agree, clicked on the more button and wanted to add that spiderman works better and that I don’t see it coming from them two but then saw that u had already done that ahaha, also yhe that Legolas scene is sick!
What Disney fails to understand is that for comic relief to work, there has to be tension or drama to be relieved. This is especially a problem with Star Wars when there’s no tension or drama in fights because Jedi are nigh unbeatable and Mandolorians wear indestructible armor.
Which is very much not the case in the original, where it's relatively clear that if obiwan was to get caught in the death star he'll just get shot (he's very much trying to hide from the stormtroopers, who've been described as good marksmen), and the only 'duel' results in someone permanently dying.
The one word I'd use to decribe good will hunting is "human" because it covers so much of the human experience and emotion. And that is I think what brings out both the comedy and the tears with beautiful sincerity.
Yes and I was watching a video the other day whose thesis was that today's Hollywood denizens didn't really know how to human, only to LA and to social media, hence they are blind to the setups that make impactful moments in stories.
A small moment I want to highlight in Good Will Hunting is that it also demonstrates that by putting natural comedy in characters, you CAN use comedy in serious moments without detracting. When Will and Shawn are hugging it out after arguably one of the most impactful and tense scenes in the movie, there is a pause, and Will asks if this breaks the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship, to which Shawn replies "only if you grab my ass". It characterizes Will as a person who is opening up, but is still working at it. He uses comedy not as a deflection here, but just to find a way to comfortably talk about what is happening right now, and relieve some pressure for himself, not the audience. Shawn replying in a more crass manner is a humour style similar to his friends, gently showing Will that he doesnt have to push it, and that existing in this moment is good enough. Of course, this characterization cant happen everywhere, but if specifically planned, can be incredibly effective. This was an amazing video essay, and im excited to see what you put out next!
Five videos and you're already on par with some who have been writing video essays for many years. You also highlight issues that aren't really talked about _literally everywhere_, which is nice
No, he didn't do a particularly good job with this one. He forgot to establish himself as a funny guy prior to the terrorism bit, so the audience knows he's not to be taken seriously at all times. The first joke you ever make to someone you don't know can't be like this
Good stuff. Don't let the low views slow you down, you had a couple one-hit wonders to get you going, and now you're building an audience. I'm eager to keep watching!
Counter argument for the Thor and Cap scene, at that point in the fight, it feels like the arrival of Thor means the battle will be won. The lighthearted quip reinforced the feeling that the good guys are about to win, making their loss after Thanos’ arrival all the more shocking/gut wrenching.
It does provide a decent contrast to the start of Endgame, where Thor is deadly serious, and you can feel the weight of their mistakes. As an aside, it's wild that he can lose his parents, brother, friends, eye, and homeworld and still be cracking jokes. If none of that beat the humor out of him, honestly, it's kind of shocking losing half the universe's population did.
@@roguebarbarian9133 he was cracking jokes BECAUSE he was sad, chris killed that role, he is always on the verge of crying until he get back to earth with stormbreaker, but is when he is mourning, he really breaks with the guilt in the next movie
People are fighting and dying around them, as the video points out. Nothing about the tide of battle makes it good writing/direction, it's bad writing/direction.
@@AquaticMammalOnBicycle From his first appearance we know that Thor LOVES battles. He's never happier than when he's in the thick of combat. So makes sense that this is the time he's most likely to quip and joke - he's having fun for the first time since Ragnarok.
My theory on humor: you know how there is a flicker of joy when something suddenly makes sense to you? Humor occurs when a bunch of bulbs light up in your head because something that you didn't imagine could made sense, is suddenly shown to. Connections between unconnected things are exposed, the logic behind illogic is revealed, and it tickles the brain.
This is very succinctly explained and Good Will Hunting is such a perfect example to use. In general I really miss so many of the mid-budget movies of the 90s because they largely had this formula understood and today's movies are often just so tonally uneven and full of detached quips that make no sense for the characters to say. I was watching the original Scream last night and was reminded of how great the comedy of it was, how natural the behavior of the teenagers when they interacted with each other, and when and why they made jokes or didn't in different situations. Mid-budget 90s, man, I'm telling ya...
infinity war had a moment that was genuinely quite sad and blended humour in pretty well which is extremely rare. when Gamora tells Peter to kill her so she can't be sacraficed for an inifinity stone Peter sacrafices the girl he loves more than anything and only bubbles come out of his gun. he pulled the trigger he made the choice to kill the girl he loved for the greater good a REALLY compelling moment and it was sad, and the humour of the bubbles didn't really feel forced it felt like that joke was thanos rubbing dirt in the wound Peter made and it works, so seeing the shitty Beard jokes in the battle of Wakanda is extremely tiring.
Even more darkly funny, is the comment Thanos makes when he sees that Peter has the iron will to shoot his own girlfriend because it's necessary. He's just met his daughter's boyfriend, taken the measure of his resolve, and he approves. "I like him."
Great video. But I burst out laughing towards the end where you were making a solid point on comedy flowing with the narrative and not feeling forced by the writers but rather natural from the character, and then there was a hard cut to quick saxophone music. So jarring it made me laugh
The most iconic scene for me was when Will's friend visited his house and realized he had left without a goodbye. And then he smiles. I knew this scene was coming from the moment he talked about this with Will earlier in the movie. Still even though I was expecting it, it gave me a tear.
The big difference, though, is one movie has a god who summons lightning with a hammer and a dude on super PED's who can stop bullets with a shield fighting a horde of faceless aliens, and one is based in reality dealing with real world issues with grounded characters. I'm not sure how the use of humor in the two can be fairly compared.
As cheap as some people may think of you as using a Robin Williams film, as he’s a comedic genius being able to improve and lighten the room easily. I think it works spectacularly for your goal of this video pretty well so good job.
I’ve always looked into what makes things funny. I like to try and make people laugh and wonder why certain things stick and others don’t. Your breakdown of a popular movie and breaking down different layers of comedy definitely shed some light! Looking forward to more content 🤝🏾
The way you implement writing techniques that you are talking about into the videos about said techniques is lowkey genius. Instead of just telling us what comedy does and how to use it well, you show us. You're 100% my fav video essayist.
Robin was such a treasure in so many movies he was in. He brought something to roles he was in be it in “Good Morning Vietnam”, “Dead Poets Society”, “Jack”, “Bicentennial Man” or so many others. Most people see a movie has Robin Williams in it and they immediately think comedy and yes while those movies do have comedy in them there is also a level of sincerity in the drama aspects that Robin brought to the roles and he is just such a great actor and able to balance both so well and naturally where the comedy does not feel forced and does lot detract from the drama in the movies he is in.
While I disagree with you on the comedy landing in Infinity War, I love this video. You did a great job challenging me and you did it through a brilliant screenplay like Good Will Hunting
This is an interesting argument you make for comedy in movies, and I agree with most of it, but I think that their is a major difference in the comedy of good will hunting and the comedy in other movies. Goodwill huntings comedy is used to humanize the characters more and make you forget your watching a drama so the emotional parts hit better, but i dont think this type of comedy would work that well in something like "the fall guy", "pirates of the Caribbean" or "zoolander" for example. Those movies have comedy every second and a lot of it doesnt push the characters or story forward at all, yet the comedy is amazing. Basically what im saying is that comedy doesnt need to have a purpose, even if the comedy in some movies is kinda shit (avengers endgame), i like having a wide variety of movies that handle comedy different ly. From your 4th wall breakings, non stop jokes like deadpool, to the serious movies like pulp fiction that tend to have a few funny scenes, all comedy has its good and bad parts. Id be interested if you made a video talking about comedy in other genres.
i think the exchange between cap and thor is an okay joke. its like boys not seeing for a long time and meeting again because their main boys has issues and saying a joke as a greeting.
Loved your observation!!! It’s something I hadn’t noticed before. Its comedy becomes a memorable part once discovered, especially since it’s not a film people expect to laugh at
Ok, so maybe a nitpick, and I might be wrong but... I'm almost certain from my own film knowledge and an article I looked up after seeing this video, that the beard joke was improv. The writers had nothing to do with it, so they're not the ones to blame. If you wanna blame someone, blame Hemsworth or the editors for leaving it in. Saying the writers ruined this moment is putting blame on the wrong people. It was literally the actor making a joke in character. The "character" in this loose sense WAS making the joke. Plus I think the joke still works in context. Like these guys haven't really had a threat like Thanos. The entire movie they play fast and loose and quippy with him and his minions much like they do with any villain. The Dark Elves could have ended multiple worlds, and Thor still developed his Ragnarok-era quippiness throughout the movie, Loki wants to bring an alien army to Earth and enslave the whole planet and they're making Wizard of Oz references. After this event, Tony learns he has to pull himself up and become a true protector of Earth, but he's coped with stress using humour his whole life and that doesn't stop there, it only covers new stresses until in Iron Man 3 when he can't cope anymore. Plus he's not here in this moment, he's on Titan being somewhat serious about the Thanos fight until the actual fight itself begins and his humour takes a back seat. The Snap is the moment they realise they need to take this shit seriously and that's why Endgame is a much darker movie in comparison. They learned their lesson, the hardest way possible.
Might argue that Good Will Hunting is a bad example for this thesis. I completely agree it's a great example of using humor to shift the mood of the narrative, thereby making the dramatic moments more impactful. However, its audience for humor is entirely internal, meaning when one character tells a joke the intent of the joke is to make another character laugh, as opposed to the theatrical audience. While a joke might be simultaneously funny to the audience, I'd speculate that the primary intention was to drive the relationships within the narrative and not beyond the bounds of the screen. Comedy is designed for the audience, character's may or may not react to the joke (typically they don't) and it may or may not drive the narrative anywhere (it often doesn't), but the intent is to make the audience laugh first and foremost. I'd propose Everything, Everywhere, All At Once a better example of a movie which uses comedy clearly designed make the audience laugh, while simultaneously using its gags to progress the plot in meaningful ways. Particularly the butt-plug fight. I lol'd.
Did a quick scan through comments and didn't see anyone else mention it, so I will: Overly Sarcastic Productions has a really good video about "bathos", which is the term they use to describe what this video is talking about with modern movies and an overreliance on comedy. Their video on lampshading also touches on it, both are super informative if anyone wants to see more discussion on the topic.
10:55 I somewhat disagree. There's a saying about how if the character cries then the audience doesn't cry and i think there is something similar with comedy too. If Bob tells a joke to John, I am not listening to the joke. I'm noticing how the first one wants to make the second laugh, how receptive the second one is, what topic of the joke is, etc. Since its a conversation I'm not a part of I don't wonder about the form since its not supposed to be tailored to me. I see what you mean about characters staying true to themselves : for example thor's "Another" from the first thor movie. As a joke it is directed to the audience, not the other characters at all. The characters might also find it funny but I don't need them to laugh for me to laugh.
Yes! That was my understanding too. I guess one would have to have a copy of the shooting script in order to know if there was another original dialogue exchange that was meant to be funny. Would the scene have been as effective and memorable without any diffusion of tension? Sigh… Robin Williams ❤ One of a kind.
I have, multiple times in the past few months, thought I had discovered a new interesting media vodeo essay channel. Only for it to be you every single time. Well done lol
One movie where I found comedic moment being so greatly put was the All Quiet on Western Front (1930). I mean, the movie is a very heavy movie, being in WW1 and we see the effect of war on innocent young men, such as Paul. But I couldn’t believe I genuinely laughed when the soldiers were on the fields in between war and were genuinely talking about what the war is even for. It’s such a philosophical conversation for the moment but also in a natural way funny. At least I found the dialogue funny. I don’t even think it’s meant to be funny, just a relief moment in the movie but it stuck in my mind as a scene of calm in an anti-war movie like that. It wasn’t the best scene or anything but, it was a perfectly placed moment.
Love this vid, I agree with your take on Marvel always undercutting serious moments with jokes. However this did remind me of a moment I like quite a bit from braveheart. When they’re being pummeled with arrows from the english Stephen, the irishman looks at Wallace and says “the lord says he’s prettt sure he can get me out of this mess, but you’re fooked” how do you feel about this moment, do you feel that it was good given the surrounding context? Love to know what you think.
Well you did do the interruption thing right after saying that it would ruin the moment which I guess is supposed to double as meta humor except you just said it ruins the moment so…. it kinda did. It didn’t seem to at first. But then you mentioned you stopped making jokes at the serious part of the video… which I didn’t notice because there wasn’t enough time for me to realize the jokes were gone before that one joke popped in again. Otherwise, you make good points. But I would argue that comic relief is fine and can relieve people from drama whether they’re mature enough to handle it or not! I also think a joke can be placed in spots you said they can’t but it depends on the joke and the execution… The Infinity War styled humor is fine as long as it’s not a repeated pattern.
Jokes undercutting the emotional impact of a serious moment is the exact reason why I despised The Last Jedi and stopped watching the new trilogy. Well, that and Rose depriving us of Finn's otherworldly glorious self-sacrifice.
Good Will Hunting is a movie in its own category for me only because it's the first and maybe only movie I learned about long before the general public even knew it existed because I was in a teen theatre program over the summer and we had someone come in to teach us acrobatics. His name was Barna Moricz (that's probably spelled wrong) and he told me during break that he had just finished shooting a movie with Robin Williams. It was Good Will Hunting. All of us theatre people went on opening night to see it a year later when it finally released and I remember the director of the program slapping me on the back and shaking me saying "there he is! That's Barna!" It's the first scene with Robin Williams and Barna is the student who says something along the lines of "because truth... Is life" on answer to a question Williams asked. So, my great claim to fame in life is that I am 2 degrees separated from Robin Williams, and 3 degrees from Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. I'm willing to sign autographs for a small fee. The best part of it all is that Good Will Hunting is one of my favourite movies of all time and would have been even without this scenario just because it's such an amazing story. It's crazy to think how old it is when I can still remember the smell of cut grass, cigarettes and BO that I was smelling when I learned of its existence.
This is the comedy I love too. People forget that almost all stories have comedy, ESPECIALLY intense ones because people just simply cannot handle non-stop intensity. It's pacing.
Thor fighting the end of the world with people dying around is just a Tuesday to him. Closest thing I know to this release of tension humor in great stress irl is the Marine Corps. Normal if you’re familiar. All your other points stand.
I agree that the comedy was misplaced in the battle at Wakanda but when the snap happens the impact still hits hard so overall narrative and stakes weren't harmed by the comedy.
The story about the wife waking herself up with her own flatulence and him taking the blame is *always* the scene I think of. Most authentic laughing I’ve ever seen in a movie. 😂
Well, when you have Robin Williams doing improv you’re starting on easy mode. His comic timing and delivery is god tier. You can’t expect many comedians to match that, much less action stars.
You’re right that Marvel does undermine its own gravitas by using humour poorly, or inappropriately. But I didn’t agree with your example. To me, that felt like a moment where Cap needed to catch his breath and Thor is providing him with that moment, rather than allowing him to feel guilty for standing around while, “people are literally fighting for their life,” all around him. After all, it’s not a, “joke,” but a comment that comes off as funny, because of its context, that it’s a bit lame and irrelevant. The very fact that it’s a water cooler moment, inappropriate to the setting, making the audience ask, “That’s what you’re thinking about?” of Thor, whilst possibly noting that Cap is too polite to just dismiss him, is why it is, “smile funny,” not, “lol,” funny. Perhaps it’s so grating to you because it comes after a litany of equally ill timed gags that didn’t work? Or perhaps you’re right and I’m wrong? I have always rated that movie quite highly in the MCU library, but both parts 1 and 2 of these finale films do suffer from those flaws. I always thought that maybe that was a me problem? So it’s validating to hear your argument. I just can’t get behind your example. My theory had always been that Marvel are perhaps suffering from trying please too many people from different demographics? They feel they want to keep the older viewers by saying, “Yes, we are aware that this is just a comic, so we’re not taking any of it too seriously.” And that results in tonal unevenness. Please don’t let my disagreement detract from the fact that I do enjoy your channel immensely. I find you to be thoughtful and insightful; considered and measured, as well as entertaining and informative.
Sopranos, a gritty, dark show about the human condition of criminal mobsters also finds time for a "Rincoln Continental" joke. Funniest part about the sopranos to me is how its violent murderers that make me laugh, along with the heavy new jersey italian accents. Good vid Squampy
The Sopranos's humour is kind of like American Psycho's, in that the characters are all genuine and take themselves VERY seriously but most of the scenes are hilarious because they come off as ignorant, pathetic or clumsy while still retaining no humour about themselves. Both are even funnier because of their dark settings making everything absurd. The joke isn't mainly "Rincorn Continental", but that it's a bad, cheap joke that the characters think is brilliant.
yes yes yes! A character needs a reason to say a line. I'm an actor and for jokes in action scenes where they are CLEARLY not thought through whether the character would say it I default to making the motive "coping?" most of the time lol. Same rules for exposition. Very simple. Have characters talk to each other not writers talk to the audience.
Great video! A note because I think you're the kind of person who would want to be corrected on something like this: When you said "Why do we laugh?" and "What makes a joke funny?", you called them "loaded questions." The term "loaded question" is often misused to mean "A question with an in-depth or lengthy answer. In reality, a loaded question is one that assumes a potentially unjustified premise. A good example is "When did you stop stealing from the elderly?" The person being asked the question isn't necessarily guilty of stealing from the elderly, but the question assumes they are. Another common example is "When did you stop beating your spouse?" to a person who definitely does not beat their spouse. "Why do you prefer drinking fresh urine instead of coffee in the morning?" to a morning coffee drinker. See what I mean? Those are loaded questions.
I’ve been clicking on quite a lot of your videos lately, and in the best way possible I’m so surprised at myself for watching them to the end (shoddy attention span and all)… all this to say I love your videos and can’t wait to see more,
One of the other examples is Daredevil. The comedy is so natural and flows with the characters. No joke is out of line and everyone comic piece is out of line for the characters. I didnt realize there was any comedy/jokes at all in the show until after the show, i watched compilation of the jokes. They were embedded so deep in the show it just felt like a part of it and there timing worked perfectly. Now compare it with forced jokes, like the one in Infinity War, where Thor is is super upset about losing his brother, gets a new hammer, is super upset, you feel bad for him. Then he comes at the end and there is fight going on and then makes jokes on CA beard. Or when Rocket meets Winter Soldier and asks for an arm. The biggest trajedy in MCU is they forgot when to do serious scene and when to do jokes. pick any movie from 2008-2015 look at the tension, the comedic relief. There is tension where there needs to be and the jokes flow with the pace. It doesnt seem forced, then you watch Thor Love and Thunder and it is just disaster. Thor was very serious character from the start. He was funny because he didnt understand how things worked on earth. There were no jokes made by the character, but the character's interactions with earth beings was a comedy. Then came Love and Thunder and a character is ruined. The same trend continues in the MCU movies/shows. Dont force comedy, dont force jokes. If you are doing comedic relief, first build the tension. It feels like in MCU they feel obligated to insert a joke every like 5 minutes or so. A joke after 30minutes of tension has better effect (no matter how shitty the joke is) compared to 5 minutes of tension and then ruining it. End of rant..
As a marine, anyone who’s been in a fight/battle/firefight will quip or crack jokes. “I. Am Steve Rogers” joke was solid gold. Not only was the beard stuff hilarious but then they make a joke about language barriers. Both of which I’ve experienced in combat.
A great point in this video about characterization is CHARACTERS have different senses of humor. I can't remember which now but I watched a video essay on how Disney's female protagonists are becoming narrower and narrower until they all just become a combination of the prototypes of their humor and quirkiness: Rapunzel and Anna. You have to tell different genres of jokes because humor is subjective not just for audience members but each character!
Commenting a lot but as an actor I just get so excited whenever I see a video essay that's just "writers: CHARACTERS NEED THEIR ACTIONS TO BE JUSTIFIED!"
Comedic relief is also a natural part of life. That’s why dark humor exists. People in high stressful and even trauma inducing situations or jobs will tend to lighten cognitive stress with humor. Using it in stories makes them more relatable and makes the characters more 3 dimensional and human.
4:22 how, if at all, do you weigh the "cost of comedy" against in-character comedy? I understand the desire for tone consistency - but Thor is a functionally immortal guy known for taking battles lightly, and Steve is always being roped into the current class clown's antics, so the beard joke didn't feel out of place even though it didn't make me laugh exactly. Am I missing a tone rule or is this a personal preference that I'm blind to? edit: or am i guilty of the same simplistic thinking that prompted that section of the video? god forbid it 🤦♀😅
You did a fantastic job of demonstrating what you were teaching while teaching it. You have great potential as a teacher! Never give up! The do as I do teacher is rare. Great work. Much love
I think The Dark Knight trilogy is a good example. They’re not comedies, but they have genuinely funny moments because it’s natural, woven in and never at the expense of the story.
Very thought-provoking Video. Very enjoyable! I would amend your statement slightly in my opinion. "When you force comedy, you pay for it at the expense of narrative." Only because Good Will Hunting shows us that as long as the comedy supports the narrative, it enhances the narrative, often bringing us closer to the characters and the event. Because, after all, we use comedy ourselves to get through daily life. It's how it's used, not necessarily if it's there. if it works in the narrative. then, in your case with GWH, you don't mind the cost. or perhaps it's better to say the cost is drastically reduced, or even a benefit rather than a cost at that point.
This happens in speeches to. You use humor to break tension but don't necessarily insert humor in a place where it will distract from the core of the speech. These things come naturally, it is just difficult to mimic natural phenomena when writing. The to writing a good story is authentic characters. Authentic characters create authentic narratives. Having a well structured and thought out narrative without authentic characters leads to an awkward story where you feel lectured by the writer. The writer, like the camera man, must always conceal his presence and allow the characters to interact freely.
I would love to see a comparison of this video to a breakdown of The Truman Show. Another great film that has comedy as a sort of narrative device with a comedic actor that isn’t solely meant to be a comedy
"those who can, do. those who understand, teach. those who can neither do, nor understand, criticise." _ aristotle any guesses as to which category you, sitting in your apartment making videos about how other people do things, fall under?
I think the latest Deadpool movie highlights what you said about characters making jokes versus writers making jokes. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed deadpool and wolverine, but it definitely felt like every character was written by the same person. literally every character had the same type of quick witted banter that deadpool would have. so much so that there were many lines in the movie that could have been delivered by deadpool but were said by wolverine, or wade's blind roommate, or cassandra nova. I just remember thinking about that after the movie was over.
I think your essay is great, but the scene you've used to highlight it isn't that solid of a choice, considering so many dud comic moment in the marvel movies (Thor4 is rife with it). Plus Marvel is anything but grounded. The comedy the stuff that we found 'funny' is built from the audience's knowledge of the character's relationships and / or ignorance. The only quip steve makes is 'i am steve rogers' and it's a writers quip - Steve is simply introducing himself to Groot but we as an audience find it endearing. The haircut remark, comes from acknowledging an old colleague/friend after they've saved their ass. Human connection in the restbite. Thor is a very bad example as many have pointed out, as he in that moment has very little stakes at all as he's stomping on bugs, taking everything in his stride. If Thanos hadn't teleported to earth we'd have likely seen Thor leave the battle to look for him once vision was secured. Utterly cavalier. Indeed we see his response in the second half of the story to his own cavalier attitude when he didn't get to Thanos quickly enough, and lost half of all life. There's also something to be said to make a friend laugh in the heat of something so serious may be the highest stakes of all. To feel it's all worth while and to lift another's spirit. However, i utterly agree with your main argument, and writers putting jokes in due to a cookie-cutter approach is the bane of any suspense. Unfortunately, you are also forgetting that the scene you're criticising is the set up to catastrophic failure and leaving the audience on a cliffhanger of the good guys failing and fade to black. It needed character beats, reunion and release of tension to clamp back down as hard as it did during the actual climax. .
Another movie that does the balance of a serious/heartwarming movie that's still extremely funny incredibly well is While You Were Sleeping starring Sandra Bullock and Bill Pullman.
I think another good example of comedy used well is the M*A*S*H* series. They have a punching bag character, one that you don't feel that much sympathy towards because he's racist, authoritarian, cowardly, blind to how problematic the US is, and insane imo (gets worse when Margaret gets married) and he gets targeted by Hawkeye and Trapper/BJ with their pranks. Frank uses comedy himself, occasionally, but not on purpose. One of my favorite quotes is "you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Korean!" Hawkeye, similar to Will, uses comedy as a defense, telling jokes to stay sane (though he won't admit it). Other characters like Margaret call him out saying "can you be serious for once???" but its his humor that makes his serious moments that much better. When a general wanted a movie made, glorifying MASH units and war itself, Pierce took the opportunity to make fun of the general by filming a Marx brothers style comedy about a goofy doctor. But before it ended, it cut to him over a patient, in normal wear, staring daggers at the camera. "Three hours ago, this man was in a battle. Two hours ago, we operated on him. He's got a 50-50 chance. We win some, we lose some. That's what it's all about. No promises. No guaranteed survival. No saints in surgical garb. Our willingness, our experience, our technique are not enough. Guns, and bombs, and anti-personnel mines have more power to take life than we have to preserve it. Not a very happy ending for a movie. But then, no war is a movie." He fights for people to survive, another quote is "don't let the bastard win" while trying to resuscitate a patient. Later, when Potter is asked about what he meant, he says "death. When it comes to death, Pierce is a sore loser....He’s just humoring us by wearing that uniform. He’s one doctor who’ll never be nonchalant where death is concerned. He’ll always take it personally." He makes jokes because out of everyone at MASH, war eats at him the most. He gives several speeches about war throughout the series, and what makes them stand out is its him removing the comedy mask to give his real opinions and experiences. There's also a scene where the unit is playing games with the Korean orphans and nuns, running around, playing tug of war in the mud, where they all get pulled in and laugh. It all comes to an abrupt halt when Radar stands up, hearing choppers farther than anyone, and they know it. They all fall silent, staring at him, and when he nods to confirm, they all walk back to the unit, some wiping the mud off their clothes. Those juxtaposition scenes are the best.
THANK YOU! I've been griping about how Infinity War (and indeed many marvel movies) give me emotional whiplash for ages, and no one around me listens. :')
Comedy is how the human mind has learned to deal with logical fallacy. As we process the days of our lives, sometimes, a circumstance occurs that is characterized one way, but the logically-trained mind may sense that a source of explanation offered is purposefully being deceptive. This can even involve schlapstick. Always, it involves tragedy. A sense of comedy is how we -- as a survival tactic -- identify the root cause of tragic circumstances. We end up laughing at it.
I suddenly realised - Good Will Hunting makes jokes to ease us in into real emotional moments while Marvel does the opposite - it uses jokes to break from intense moments.
I definitely understand your critique of Infinity War (especially because it wasn’t funny), however having personally served in the military on deployment to a warzone, there are times of intense stress where dumb conversations happen, unintentionally comedic things are said. Obviously people don’t exactly just stand there and have the conversation, but momentary lulls do happen and things slip out.
A nitpick perhaps, but the joke in Infinity War was really post - fight. When Thor shows up, the audience - and the characters - know that this shit is OVER. And it's true - he systemically tears Thanos' entire army apart. They only lose later when Thanos ambushes them. There are better examples of your point in the MCU.
Except it’s not over because there are still men dying behind them as they joke. Especially since it’s Captain America, his entire schtick is that he’s the ideal soldier
4:37 I have to say: I believe this joke is a kind of red herring. SPOILERS By seeming flippant during this battle scene, our guard is lowered for the Avengers’ defeat at the conclusion of this movie. 💙 So treating it like a “genuine” attempt at comedy is misplaced. Things are still getting “worse”, but this joke is the audience’s fuel for the belief that the Avengers are going to win the day, as per usual. Whether you feel the joke is humorous or well timed or not, the presence of this joke does what it’s intended to do. The same (but better) is true of Okoye’s remark about Wanda’s arrival: “Why was she up there all this time?” It reinforces the relief at Wanda’s arrival, making the audience feel assured the Avengers will be fine. It’s a better joke, because THERE ARE PEOPLE FIGHTING FIR THEIR LIVES, THOR. I do think the flippancy shows how Thor still has some growth ahead of him; which is important for the future of a character that will need to display growth in future releases… But a lot of all this goes back and forth between treating the Avengers movies each individually, or as the larger entity But anyway, my point is: Criticizing Cap and Thor is better done against the characters, rather than at the writing itself; in universe analysis, rather than the creative one - or at least, to bear the two in mind when doing/reading a critique of the writing But don’t let that sound like I think any of this discussion should cease 💙💙💙
I remember being shocked when I laughed in this movie, I didn't expect it but I was pleased
Exactly!
@@SquampopulousIf you haven’t heard of Mr.Inbetween it’s a comedy show similar to Barry, but it takes itself way more seriously
As a note when you bring up the infinity war moment:
I can tell what the writers are attempting to do. They're trying to get that stereotypical comic book moment. Where the hero stops and quips mid fight. The issue is its done super horribly there. It literally interrupts the flow and the drama of the moment.
A movie series that does moments like this perfectly? Lord of the Rings. Legolas and Gimili having their little "counting" contest in the middle of combat. The difference between the two narratively is the first one interrupted the drama of the moment to deliver the joke. The second one weaves the joke into the narrative of the moment. Legolas and Gimili never stop fighting to make their banter, and they look cooler doing it.
Another character within the same medium to look to for this is Spiderman who makes non-stop quips and jokes while fighting. But he does it while fighting. That allows it to flow into the narrative more and shows that Spiderman is just much more of a 'cool guy' type of character.
Another reason the moment doesn't work is it's not really in Cap's nature to stop and banter like that in a fight. Maybe in Thor's nature sure. But Cap's character thus far would show he would be in this moment and taking it seriously.
A re-write of the scene while keeping the intention there would be having Thor comment on Cap's beard. Cap is taking on a group of enemies and having some difficulties responds "Kinda busy here!" Thor comes in and assists. Then Cap gives an acknowledging remark about the beard and they continue on the fight. It'd keep the tension of the battle going while still giving that 'comedy relief' that the writers wanted to throw in at that moment. That's just a rough idea there's a lot of different ways you can re-write the scene to inject comedy while not taking away from the drama of the battle.
very good points
I think we could have this moment right after Thor's arrival in Wakanda. He would kill the aliens that were holding Steve down, and then personally walk (or fly) up to him and help him get back on his feet, then, while Cap's still on the ground and getting back to his senses, Thor says "I see you copied my style", then, when Steve gets up, he pants and then starts adjusting his shields and says "and I see you copied mine", Thor gives that little laugh, Cap smiles, and they both start taking the aliens around them down
It’s absolutely in Thor’s character as he’s a god and there’s no stakes for him, good points and excellent rewrite idea
@@Diamonddrake there absolutely are stakes tho, Thor just saw his Kingdom get wiped out before getting in the ship heading to Earth, and, on the way there, he watched half of what was left of his people be killed while the purple giant who leads the army he's fighting in this scene held him unmovable. Besides, he saw his father, his brother and his sister die in front of him, so I'm pretty he understands that he only seems immortal compared to most beings across the universe, but he definetly isn't
I agree, it’s not really their character lol completely agree, clicked on the more button and wanted to add that spiderman works better and that I don’t see it coming from them two but then saw that u had already done that ahaha, also yhe that Legolas scene is sick!
“When you don’t mind the cost of comedy, you pay for it at the expense of your narrative”.
I believe the dropped mic is yours.
Bravo.
What Disney fails to understand is that for comic relief to work, there has to be tension or drama to be relieved. This is especially a problem with Star Wars when there’s no tension or drama in fights because Jedi are nigh unbeatable and Mandolorians wear indestructible armor.
Which is very much not the case in the original, where it's relatively clear that if obiwan was to get caught in the death star he'll just get shot (he's very much trying to hide from the stormtroopers, who've been described as good marksmen), and the only 'duel' results in someone permanently dying.
that's not a Disney probably that's a George Lucas problem 😅
@@sathalel4084 If you read the other replies to this thread before you commented, you'd see why that wasn't true.
@@reganator5000 I think it has more to do with the fact that Obiwan knows he will get overwhelmed by them eventually, if they knew he was there.
Disney removes all tension to stay “family-friendly”. They’ve become Gary Stu.
The one word I'd use to decribe good will hunting is "human" because it covers so much of the human experience and emotion. And that is I think what brings out both the comedy and the tears with beautiful sincerity.
Yes and I was watching a video the other day whose thesis was that today's Hollywood denizens didn't really know how to human, only to LA and to social media, hence they are blind to the setups that make impactful moments in stories.
A small moment I want to highlight in Good Will Hunting is that it also demonstrates that by putting natural comedy in characters, you CAN use comedy in serious moments without detracting. When Will and Shawn are hugging it out after arguably one of the most impactful and tense scenes in the movie, there is a pause, and Will asks if this breaks the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship, to which Shawn replies "only if you grab my ass". It characterizes Will as a person who is opening up, but is still working at it. He uses comedy not as a deflection here, but just to find a way to comfortably talk about what is happening right now, and relieve some pressure for himself, not the audience. Shawn replying in a more crass manner is a humour style similar to his friends, gently showing Will that he doesnt have to push it, and that existing in this moment is good enough. Of course, this characterization cant happen everywhere, but if specifically planned, can be incredibly effective. This was an amazing video essay, and im excited to see what you put out next!
this is the type of comment that increased the value of the video
@@ACShotRunI completely agree
Haven't seen this in a minute. Thanks for the insightful look. R.I.P. Robin Williams.
one of the greatest. i believe it is still on Max
Goat
A legend ❤️
Five videos and you're already on par with some who have been writing video essays for many years. You also highlight issues that aren't really talked about _literally everywhere_, which is nice
thanks! I try to be different and professional
That terrorism joke was a gold way to prove your point. Good job 😂
I thought it was terrible. It would have been passable if he hadn't drawn more attention to it by explaining it after as well.
i actually burst out laughing - just because of his delivery
I actually laughed extremely loud xD
No, he didn't do a particularly good job with this one. He forgot to establish himself as a funny guy prior to the terrorism bit, so the audience knows he's not to be taken seriously at all times. The first joke you ever make to someone you don't know can't be like this
Yeah I grinned at this
Good stuff. Don't let the low views slow you down, you had a couple one-hit wonders to get you going, and now you're building an audience. I'm eager to keep watching!
thanks for the kind words!
Don’t mean to subdue a very sweet comment, but isn’t “a couple one-hit wonders” kind of an oxymoron? Lol
@@sakurasensations4786how much one hit wonders should someone have?…one?
Pffft
Getta loada this guy
Counter argument for the Thor and Cap scene, at that point in the fight, it feels like the arrival of Thor means the battle will be won. The lighthearted quip reinforced the feeling that the good guys are about to win, making their loss after Thanos’ arrival all the more shocking/gut wrenching.
It does provide a decent contrast to the start of Endgame, where Thor is deadly serious, and you can feel the weight of their mistakes. As an aside, it's wild that he can lose his parents, brother, friends, eye, and homeworld and still be cracking jokes. If none of that beat the humor out of him, honestly, it's kind of shocking losing half the universe's population did.
@@roguebarbarian9133 he was cracking jokes BECAUSE he was sad, chris killed that role, he is always on the verge of crying until he get back to earth with stormbreaker, but is when he is mourning, he really breaks with the guilt in the next movie
@@Sauvva_a lot of people seem to miss that it’s often when people are at their lowest, or most difficult times, that they joke the most.
People are fighting and dying around them, as the video points out. Nothing about the tide of battle makes it good writing/direction, it's bad writing/direction.
@@AquaticMammalOnBicycle From his first appearance we know that Thor LOVES battles. He's never happier than when he's in the thick of combat. So makes sense that this is the time he's most likely to quip and joke - he's having fun for the first time since Ragnarok.
1:51 why did I laugh at that joke...
Shock factor
My theory on humor: you know how there is a flicker of joy when something suddenly makes sense to you? Humor occurs when a bunch of bulbs light up in your head because something that you didn't imagine could made sense, is suddenly shown to. Connections between unconnected things are exposed, the logic behind illogic is revealed, and it tickles the brain.
This is very succinctly explained and Good Will Hunting is such a perfect example to use. In general I really miss so many of the mid-budget movies of the 90s because they largely had this formula understood and today's movies are often just so tonally uneven and full of detached quips that make no sense for the characters to say. I was watching the original Scream last night and was reminded of how great the comedy of it was, how natural the behavior of the teenagers when they interacted with each other, and when and why they made jokes or didn't in different situations. Mid-budget 90s, man, I'm telling ya...
Love your essays, they are straight to the point and articulate some great stuff that so many creators overlook. Cheers mate
thank you!
infinity war had a moment that was genuinely quite sad and blended humour in pretty well which is extremely rare. when Gamora tells Peter to kill her so she can't be sacraficed for an inifinity stone Peter sacrafices the girl he loves more than anything and only bubbles come out of his gun. he pulled the trigger he made the choice to kill the girl he loved for the greater good a REALLY compelling moment and it was sad, and the humour of the bubbles didn't really feel forced it felt like that joke was thanos rubbing dirt in the wound Peter made and it works, so seeing the shitty Beard jokes in the battle of Wakanda is extremely tiring.
Even more darkly funny, is the comment Thanos makes when he sees that Peter has the iron will to shoot his own girlfriend because it's necessary. He's just met his daughter's boyfriend, taken the measure of his resolve, and he approves. "I like him."
I didn't feel like it was funny. I thought it was more like a fuck you from Thanos to Peter. It kinda made me feel angry.
Great video. But I burst out laughing towards the end where you were making a solid point on comedy flowing with the narrative and not feeling forced by the writers but rather natural from the character, and then there was a hard cut to quick saxophone music. So jarring it made me laugh
Hahaha
The most iconic scene for me was when Will's friend visited his house and realized he had left without a goodbye. And then he smiles. I knew this scene was coming from the moment he talked about this with Will earlier in the movie. Still even though I was expecting it, it gave me a tear.
You don't know what irony is.
Yes i forgot all of your jokes by the end of the video. Well done
The big difference, though, is one movie has a god who summons lightning with a hammer and a dude on super PED's who can stop bullets with a shield fighting a horde of faceless aliens, and one is based in reality dealing with real world issues with grounded characters. I'm not sure how the use of humor in the two can be fairly compared.
As cheap as some people may think of you as using a Robin Williams film, as he’s a comedic genius being able to improve and lighten the room easily. I think it works spectacularly for your goal of this video pretty well so good job.
Why would anyone think it's cheap to use a Robin Williams film?
@@Disgruntled_Grunt I’m just saying. Some people are cynical.
I’ve always looked into what makes things funny.
I like to try and make people laugh and wonder why certain things stick and others don’t.
Your breakdown of a popular movie and breaking down different layers of comedy definitely shed some light! Looking forward to more content 🤝🏾
The way you implement writing techniques that you are talking about into the videos about said techniques is lowkey genius. Instead of just telling us what comedy does and how to use it well, you show us. You're 100% my fav video essayist.
thanks!!
Not gonna lie, this went from a logical breakdown to a personal gripe real quick.
Robin was such a treasure in so many movies he was in. He brought something to roles he was in be it in “Good Morning Vietnam”, “Dead Poets Society”, “Jack”, “Bicentennial Man” or so many others. Most people see a movie has Robin Williams in it and they immediately think comedy and yes while those movies do have comedy in them there is also a level of sincerity in the drama aspects that Robin brought to the roles and he is just such a great actor and able to balance both so well and naturally where the comedy does not feel forced and does lot detract from the drama in the movies he is in.
While I disagree with you on the comedy landing in Infinity War, I love this video. You did a great job challenging me and you did it through a brilliant screenplay like Good Will Hunting
This is an interesting argument you make for comedy in movies, and I agree with most of it, but I think that their is a major difference in the comedy of good will hunting and the comedy in other movies.
Goodwill huntings comedy is used to humanize the characters more and make you forget your watching a drama so the emotional parts hit better, but i dont think this type of comedy would work that well in something like "the fall guy", "pirates of the Caribbean" or "zoolander" for example. Those movies have comedy every second and a lot of it doesnt push the characters or story forward at all, yet the comedy is amazing.
Basically what im saying is that comedy doesnt need to have a purpose, even if the comedy in some movies is kinda shit (avengers endgame), i like having a wide variety of movies that handle comedy different ly. From your 4th wall breakings, non stop jokes like deadpool, to the serious movies like pulp fiction that tend to have a few funny scenes, all comedy has its good and bad parts.
Id be interested if you made a video talking about comedy in other genres.
i think the exchange between cap and thor is an okay joke. its like boys not seeing for a long time and meeting again because their main boys has issues and saying a joke as a greeting.
Loved your observation!!! It’s something I hadn’t noticed before. Its comedy becomes a memorable part once discovered, especially since it’s not a film people expect to laugh at
exactly! glad you agree
Ok, so maybe a nitpick, and I might be wrong but... I'm almost certain from my own film knowledge and an article I looked up after seeing this video, that the beard joke was improv. The writers had nothing to do with it, so they're not the ones to blame. If you wanna blame someone, blame Hemsworth or the editors for leaving it in. Saying the writers ruined this moment is putting blame on the wrong people. It was literally the actor making a joke in character. The "character" in this loose sense WAS making the joke.
Plus I think the joke still works in context. Like these guys haven't really had a threat like Thanos. The entire movie they play fast and loose and quippy with him and his minions much like they do with any villain. The Dark Elves could have ended multiple worlds, and Thor still developed his Ragnarok-era quippiness throughout the movie, Loki wants to bring an alien army to Earth and enslave the whole planet and they're making Wizard of Oz references. After this event, Tony learns he has to pull himself up and become a true protector of Earth, but he's coped with stress using humour his whole life and that doesn't stop there, it only covers new stresses until in Iron Man 3 when he can't cope anymore. Plus he's not here in this moment, he's on Titan being somewhat serious about the Thanos fight until the actual fight itself begins and his humour takes a back seat.
The Snap is the moment they realise they need to take this shit seriously and that's why Endgame is a much darker movie in comparison. They learned their lesson, the hardest way possible.
I disagree on that specific bad example, but really enjoyed your style, your observations and some of your arguments and conclusions. Subscribed.
Nice, well integrated use of jokes to lighten the mood whilst getting across your point
Comparing Chris Australian to the late great Robin Williams in the thumbnail is such an insult to both of them. 😅
Great video
I never was in a war. If you're dead 5 minutes later, wouldn't you make the joke 5 minutes earlier regardless?
Might argue that Good Will Hunting is a bad example for this thesis. I completely agree it's a great example of using humor to shift the mood of the narrative, thereby making the dramatic moments more impactful. However, its audience for humor is entirely internal, meaning when one character tells a joke the intent of the joke is to make another character laugh, as opposed to the theatrical audience. While a joke might be simultaneously funny to the audience, I'd speculate that the primary intention was to drive the relationships within the narrative and not beyond the bounds of the screen. Comedy is designed for the audience, character's may or may not react to the joke (typically they don't) and it may or may not drive the narrative anywhere (it often doesn't), but the intent is to make the audience laugh first and foremost.
I'd propose Everything, Everywhere, All At Once a better example of a movie which uses comedy clearly designed make the audience laugh, while simultaneously using its gags to progress the plot in meaningful ways. Particularly the butt-plug fight. I lol'd.
this a great breakdown my dude!
Appreciate it adam
Did a quick scan through comments and didn't see anyone else mention it, so I will: Overly Sarcastic Productions has a really good video about "bathos", which is the term they use to describe what this video is talking about with modern movies and an overreliance on comedy. Their video on lampshading also touches on it, both are super informative if anyone wants to see more discussion on the topic.
10:55 I somewhat disagree.
There's a saying about how if the character cries then the audience doesn't cry and i think there is something similar with comedy too.
If Bob tells a joke to John, I am not listening to the joke. I'm noticing how the first one wants to make the second laugh, how receptive the second one is, what topic of the joke is, etc. Since its a conversation I'm not a part of I don't wonder about the form since its not supposed to be tailored to me.
I see what you mean about characters staying true to themselves : for example thor's "Another" from the first thor movie. As a joke it is directed to the audience, not the other characters at all. The characters might also find it funny but I don't need them to laugh for me to laugh.
fun fact, that line was improvised. so this isn’t really the writers
Yes! That was my understanding too. I guess one would have to have a copy of the shooting script in order to know if there was another original dialogue exchange that was meant to be funny. Would the scene have been as effective and memorable without any diffusion of tension?
Sigh… Robin Williams ❤ One of a kind.
I have, multiple times in the past few months, thought I had discovered a new interesting media vodeo essay channel. Only for it to be you every single time. Well done lol
Haha that’s awesome
Well, that's, just like, your, opinion, man
Putting Robin Williams in your movie also tends to help. Or well...I guess it used to help.
RIP to the legend.
One movie where I found comedic moment being so greatly put was the All Quiet on Western Front (1930). I mean, the movie is a very heavy movie, being in WW1 and we see the effect of war on innocent young men, such as Paul. But I couldn’t believe I genuinely laughed when the soldiers were on the fields in between war and were genuinely talking about what the war is even for. It’s such a philosophical conversation for the moment but also in a natural way funny. At least I found the dialogue funny. I don’t even think it’s meant to be funny, just a relief moment in the movie but it stuck in my mind as a scene of calm in an anti-war movie like that. It wasn’t the best scene or anything but, it was a perfectly placed moment.
Chuckie with the RETAAAINERRR. I had tears in my eyes the first time I saw that.
Love this vid, I agree with your take on Marvel always undercutting serious moments with jokes. However this did remind me of a moment I like quite a bit from braveheart. When they’re being pummeled with arrows from the english Stephen, the irishman looks at Wallace and says “the lord says he’s prettt sure he can get me out of this mess, but you’re fooked” how do you feel about this moment, do you feel that it was good given the surrounding context? Love to know what you think.
Ok you convinced me I'll watch good will hunting for the third time this year
Well you did do the interruption thing right after saying that it would ruin the moment which I guess is supposed to double as meta humor except you just said it ruins the moment so…. it kinda did. It didn’t seem to at first. But then you mentioned you stopped making jokes at the serious part of the video… which I didn’t notice because there wasn’t enough time for me to realize the jokes were gone before that one joke popped in again.
Otherwise, you make good points.
But I would argue that comic relief is fine and can relieve people from drama whether they’re mature enough to handle it or not!
I also think a joke can be placed in spots you said they can’t but it depends on the joke and the execution…
The Infinity War styled humor is fine as long as it’s not a repeated pattern.
I love how you applied the concept to your own video
Jokes undercutting the emotional impact of a serious moment is the exact reason why I despised The Last Jedi and stopped watching the new trilogy. Well, that and Rose depriving us of Finn's otherworldly glorious self-sacrifice.
Good Will Hunting is a movie in its own category for me only because it's the first and maybe only movie I learned about long before the general public even knew it existed because I was in a teen theatre program over the summer and we had someone come in to teach us acrobatics. His name was Barna Moricz (that's probably spelled wrong) and he told me during break that he had just finished shooting a movie with Robin Williams. It was Good Will Hunting. All of us theatre people went on opening night to see it a year later when it finally released and I remember the director of the program slapping me on the back and shaking me saying "there he is! That's Barna!" It's the first scene with Robin Williams and Barna is the student who says something along the lines of "because truth... Is life" on answer to a question Williams asked. So, my great claim to fame in life is that I am 2 degrees separated from Robin Williams, and 3 degrees from Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.
I'm willing to sign autographs for a small fee.
The best part of it all is that Good Will Hunting is one of my favourite movies of all time and would have been even without this scenario just because it's such an amazing story. It's crazy to think how old it is when I can still remember the smell of cut grass, cigarettes and BO that I was smelling when I learned of its existence.
This is the comedy I love too. People forget that almost all stories have comedy, ESPECIALLY intense ones because people just simply cannot handle non-stop intensity. It's pacing.
Thor fighting the end of the world with people dying around is just a Tuesday to him. Closest thing I know to this release of tension humor in great stress irl is the Marine Corps. Normal if you’re familiar. All your other points stand.
I agree that the comedy was misplaced in the battle at Wakanda but when the snap happens the impact still hits hard so overall narrative and stakes weren't harmed by the comedy.
The story about the wife waking herself up with her own flatulence and him taking the blame is *always* the scene I think of. Most authentic laughing I’ve ever seen in a movie. 😂
There’s a reason this is my favorite movie ever. Also ur a great explainer and make really good vids, keep it up!
Thanks! Will do!
Well, when you have Robin Williams doing improv you’re starting on easy mode. His comic timing and delivery is god tier.
You can’t expect many comedians to match that, much less action stars.
You’re right that Marvel does undermine its own gravitas by using humour poorly, or inappropriately. But I didn’t agree with your example.
To me, that felt like a moment where Cap needed to catch his breath and Thor is providing him with that moment, rather than allowing him to feel guilty for standing around while, “people are literally fighting for their life,” all around him. After all, it’s not a, “joke,” but a comment that comes off as funny, because of its context, that it’s a bit lame and irrelevant.
The very fact that it’s a water cooler moment, inappropriate to the setting, making the audience ask, “That’s what you’re thinking about?” of Thor, whilst possibly noting that Cap is too polite to just dismiss him, is why it is, “smile funny,” not, “lol,” funny. Perhaps it’s so grating to you because it comes after a litany of equally ill timed gags that didn’t work? Or perhaps you’re right and I’m wrong?
I have always rated that movie quite highly in the MCU library, but both parts 1 and 2 of these finale films do suffer from those flaws. I always thought that maybe that was a me problem? So it’s validating to hear your argument. I just can’t get behind your example.
My theory had always been that Marvel are perhaps suffering from trying please too many people from different demographics? They feel they want to keep the older viewers by saying, “Yes, we are aware that this is just a comic, so we’re not taking any of it too seriously.” And that results in tonal unevenness.
Please don’t let my disagreement detract from the fact that I do enjoy your channel immensely. I find you to be thoughtful and insightful; considered and measured, as well as entertaining and informative.
I need to rewatch this masterpiece & introduce it to my daughter
First video of yours - congrats on all the success & keeping the momentum!
Sopranos, a gritty, dark show about the human condition of criminal mobsters also finds time for a "Rincoln Continental" joke. Funniest part about the sopranos to me is how its violent murderers that make me laugh, along with the heavy new jersey italian accents. Good vid Squampy
The Sopranos's humour is kind of like American Psycho's, in that the characters are all genuine and take themselves VERY seriously but most of the scenes are hilarious because they come off as ignorant, pathetic or clumsy while still retaining no humour about themselves. Both are even funnier because of their dark settings making everything absurd. The joke isn't mainly "Rincorn Continental", but that it's a bad, cheap joke that the characters think is brilliant.
yes yes yes! A character needs a reason to say a line. I'm an actor and for jokes in action scenes where they are CLEARLY not thought through whether the character would say it I default to making the motive "coping?" most of the time lol. Same rules for exposition. Very simple. Have characters talk to each other not writers talk to the audience.
Great video!
A note because I think you're the kind of person who would want to be corrected on something like this: When you said "Why do we laugh?" and "What makes a joke funny?", you called them "loaded questions." The term "loaded question" is often misused to mean "A question with an in-depth or lengthy answer. In reality, a loaded question is one that assumes a potentially unjustified premise. A good example is "When did you stop stealing from the elderly?" The person being asked the question isn't necessarily guilty of stealing from the elderly, but the question assumes they are. Another common example is "When did you stop beating your spouse?" to a person who definitely does not beat their spouse. "Why do you prefer drinking fresh urine instead of coffee in the morning?" to a morning coffee drinker. See what I mean? Those are loaded questions.
I’ve been clicking on quite a lot of your videos lately, and in the best way possible I’m so surprised at myself for watching them to the end (shoddy attention span and all)… all this to say I love your videos and can’t wait to see more,
I binged your videos thus far, you're pretty good! We will watch your career with great interest
One of the other examples is Daredevil. The comedy is so natural and flows with the characters. No joke is out of line and everyone comic piece is out of line for the characters. I didnt realize there was any comedy/jokes at all in the show until after the show, i watched compilation of the jokes. They were embedded so deep in the show it just felt like a part of it and there timing worked perfectly.
Now compare it with forced jokes, like the one in Infinity War, where Thor is is super upset about losing his brother, gets a new hammer, is super upset, you feel bad for him. Then he comes at the end and there is fight going on and then makes jokes on CA beard. Or when Rocket meets Winter Soldier and asks for an arm. The biggest trajedy in MCU is they forgot when to do serious scene and when to do jokes. pick any movie from 2008-2015 look at the tension, the comedic relief. There is tension where there needs to be and the jokes flow with the pace. It doesnt seem forced, then you watch Thor Love and Thunder and it is just disaster. Thor was very serious character from the start. He was funny because he didnt understand how things worked on earth. There were no jokes made by the character, but the character's interactions with earth beings was a comedy. Then came Love and Thunder and a character is ruined. The same trend continues in the MCU movies/shows.
Dont force comedy, dont force jokes. If you are doing comedic relief, first build the tension. It feels like in MCU they feel obligated to insert a joke every like 5 minutes or so. A joke after 30minutes of tension has better effect (no matter how shitty the joke is) compared to 5 minutes of tension and then ruining it.
End of rant..
As a marine, anyone who’s been in a fight/battle/firefight will quip or crack jokes.
“I. Am Steve Rogers” joke was solid gold. Not only was the beard stuff hilarious but then they make a joke about language barriers. Both of which I’ve experienced in combat.
Did you *stop* fighting to do it? No? Thank you for your service.
A great point in this video about characterization is CHARACTERS have different senses of humor. I can't remember which now but I watched a video essay on how Disney's female protagonists are becoming narrower and narrower until they all just become a combination of the prototypes of their humor and quirkiness: Rapunzel and Anna. You have to tell different genres of jokes because humor is subjective not just for audience members but each character!
Commenting a lot but as an actor I just get so excited whenever I see a video essay that's just "writers: CHARACTERS NEED THEIR ACTIONS TO BE JUSTIFIED!"
Why does the humor research guy look like he's never actually laughed.
Comedic relief is also a natural part of life. That’s why dark humor exists. People in high stressful and even trauma inducing situations or jobs will tend to lighten cognitive stress with humor. Using it in stories makes them more relatable and makes the characters more 3 dimensional and human.
Ur camera angle makes you look like one of the celebrity heads from futurama
I exhaled from my nose when you mentioned the exhale from the nose thing :) 0:40
4:22 how, if at all, do you weigh the "cost of comedy" against in-character comedy? I understand the desire for tone consistency - but Thor is a functionally immortal guy known for taking battles lightly, and Steve is always being roped into the current class clown's antics, so the beard joke didn't feel out of place even though it didn't make me laugh exactly. Am I missing a tone rule or is this a personal preference that I'm blind to? edit: or am i guilty of the same simplistic thinking that prompted that section of the video? god forbid it 🤦♀😅
You did a fantastic job of demonstrating what you were teaching while teaching it. You have great potential as a teacher! Never give up! The do as I do teacher is rare. Great work. Much love
I think The Dark Knight trilogy is a good example. They’re not comedies, but they have genuinely funny moments because it’s natural, woven in and never at the expense of the story.
How about a magic trick? was absolutely brilliant.
Very thought-provoking Video. Very enjoyable!
I would amend your statement slightly in my opinion. "When you force comedy, you pay for it at the expense of narrative."
Only because Good Will Hunting shows us that as long as the comedy supports the narrative, it enhances the narrative, often bringing us closer to the characters and the event. Because, after all, we use comedy ourselves to get through daily life. It's how it's used, not necessarily if it's there. if it works in the narrative. then, in your case with GWH, you don't mind the cost. or perhaps it's better to say the cost is drastically reduced, or even a benefit rather than a cost at that point.
This happens in speeches to. You use humor to break tension but don't necessarily insert humor in a place where it will distract from the core of the speech. These things come naturally, it is just difficult to mimic natural phenomena when writing. The to writing a good story is authentic characters. Authentic characters create authentic narratives. Having a well structured and thought out narrative without authentic characters leads to an awkward story where you feel lectured by the writer. The writer, like the camera man, must always conceal his presence and allow the characters to interact freely.
I would love to see a comparison of this video to a breakdown of The Truman Show. Another great film that has comedy as a sort of narrative device with a comedic actor that isn’t solely meant to be a comedy
"those who can, do.
those who understand, teach.
those who can neither do, nor understand, criticise."
_ aristotle
any guesses as to which category you, sitting in your apartment making videos about how other people do things, fall under?
I think the latest Deadpool movie highlights what you said about characters making jokes versus writers making jokes. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed deadpool and wolverine, but it definitely felt like every character was written by the same person. literally every character had the same type of quick witted banter that deadpool would have. so much so that there were many lines in the movie that could have been delivered by deadpool but were said by wolverine, or wade's blind roommate, or cassandra nova.
I just remember thinking about that after the movie was over.
I think your essay is great, but the scene you've used to highlight it isn't that solid of a choice, considering so many dud comic moment in the marvel movies (Thor4 is rife with it). Plus Marvel is anything but grounded.
The comedy the stuff that we found 'funny' is built from the audience's knowledge of the character's relationships and / or ignorance. The only quip steve makes is 'i am steve rogers' and it's a writers quip - Steve is simply introducing himself to Groot but we as an audience find it endearing. The haircut remark, comes from acknowledging an old colleague/friend after they've saved their ass. Human connection in the restbite. Thor is a very bad example as many have pointed out, as he in that moment has very little stakes at all as he's stomping on bugs, taking everything in his stride. If Thanos hadn't teleported to earth we'd have likely seen Thor leave the battle to look for him once vision was secured. Utterly cavalier. Indeed we see his response in the second half of the story to his own cavalier attitude when he didn't get to Thanos quickly enough, and lost half of all life.
There's also something to be said to make a friend laugh in the heat of something so serious may be the highest stakes of all. To feel it's all worth while and to lift another's spirit.
However, i utterly agree with your main argument, and writers putting jokes in due to a cookie-cutter approach is the bane of any suspense. Unfortunately, you are also forgetting that the scene you're criticising is the set up to catastrophic failure and leaving the audience on a cliffhanger of the good guys failing and fade to black. It needed character beats, reunion and release of tension to clamp back down as hard as it did during the actual climax.
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I love that part of good will hunting when jay and silent bob interrupted it
Another movie that does the balance of a serious/heartwarming movie that's still extremely funny incredibly well is While You Were Sleeping starring Sandra Bullock and Bill Pullman.
I think another good example of comedy used well is the M*A*S*H* series. They have a punching bag character, one that you don't feel that much sympathy towards because he's racist, authoritarian, cowardly, blind to how problematic the US is, and insane imo (gets worse when Margaret gets married) and he gets targeted by Hawkeye and Trapper/BJ with their pranks. Frank uses comedy himself, occasionally, but not on purpose. One of my favorite quotes is "you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Korean!"
Hawkeye, similar to Will, uses comedy as a defense, telling jokes to stay sane (though he won't admit it). Other characters like Margaret call him out saying "can you be serious for once???" but its his humor that makes his serious moments that much better.
When a general wanted a movie made, glorifying MASH units and war itself, Pierce took the opportunity to make fun of the general by filming a Marx brothers style comedy about a goofy doctor. But before it ended, it cut to him over a patient, in normal wear, staring daggers at the camera.
"Three hours ago, this man was in a battle. Two hours ago, we operated on him. He's got a 50-50 chance. We win some, we lose some. That's what it's all about. No promises. No guaranteed survival. No saints in surgical garb. Our willingness, our experience, our technique are not enough. Guns, and bombs, and anti-personnel mines have more power to take life than we have to preserve it. Not a very happy ending for a movie. But then, no war is a movie."
He fights for people to survive, another quote is "don't let the bastard win" while trying to resuscitate a patient. Later, when Potter is asked about what he meant, he says "death. When it comes to death, Pierce is a sore loser....He’s just humoring us by wearing that uniform.
He’s one doctor who’ll never be nonchalant where death is concerned. He’ll always take it personally."
He makes jokes because out of everyone at MASH, war eats at him the most. He gives several speeches about war throughout the series, and what makes them stand out is its him removing the comedy mask to give his real opinions and experiences.
There's also a scene where the unit is playing games with the Korean orphans and nuns, running around, playing tug of war in the mud, where they all get pulled in and laugh. It all comes to an abrupt halt when Radar stands up, hearing choppers farther than anyone, and they know it. They all fall silent, staring at him, and when he nods to confirm, they all walk back to the unit, some wiping the mud off their clothes. Those juxtaposition scenes are the best.
Yes MASH is so great, really down to earth comedy in an environment you wouldn’t expect it, but makes complete sense!
10:33 I see you😂
THANK YOU! I've been griping about how Infinity War (and indeed many marvel movies) give me emotional whiplash for ages, and no one around me listens. :')
Comedy is how the human mind has learned to deal with logical fallacy. As we process the days of our lives, sometimes, a circumstance occurs that is characterized one way, but the logically-trained mind may sense that a source of explanation offered is purposefully being deceptive. This can even involve schlapstick. Always, it involves tragedy. A sense of comedy is how we -- as a survival tactic -- identify the root cause of tragic circumstances.
We end up laughing at it.
officially a loyal viewer. This is so good
glad you enjoy!
I suddenly realised - Good Will Hunting makes jokes to ease us in into real emotional moments while Marvel does the opposite - it uses jokes to break from intense moments.
Really enjoying your videos. Everything you say just makes perfect sense. Thank you 🫶
I definitely understand your critique of Infinity War (especially because it wasn’t funny), however having personally served in the military on deployment to a warzone, there are times of intense stress where dumb conversations happen, unintentionally comedic things are said.
Obviously people don’t exactly just stand there and have the conversation, but momentary lulls do happen and things slip out.
This was a really helpful video, thank you so much, I really appreciate it :)
my favorite scene is when theyre talking about the unabomber in the bar
Really good video, and I really hate it, as you say, the characters makes jokes at just the wrong time, like the Marvel movies
A nitpick perhaps, but the joke in Infinity War was really post - fight. When Thor shows up, the audience - and the characters - know that this shit is OVER. And it's true - he systemically tears Thanos' entire army apart. They only lose later when Thanos ambushes them.
There are better examples of your point in the MCU.
Except it’s not over because there are still men dying behind them as they joke. Especially since it’s Captain America, his entire schtick is that he’s the ideal soldier
This principle is exactly why The Sopranos is the funniest piece of media I've ever watched.
4:37
I have to say:
I believe this joke is a kind of red herring. SPOILERS By seeming flippant during this battle scene, our guard is lowered for the Avengers’ defeat at the conclusion of this movie. 💙
So treating it like a “genuine” attempt at comedy is misplaced.
Things are still getting “worse”, but this joke is the audience’s fuel for the belief that the Avengers are going to win the day, as per usual.
Whether you feel the joke is humorous or well timed or not, the presence of this joke does what it’s intended to do.
The same (but better) is true of Okoye’s remark about Wanda’s arrival: “Why was she up there all this time?” It reinforces the relief at Wanda’s arrival, making the audience feel assured the Avengers will be fine.
It’s a better joke, because THERE ARE PEOPLE FIGHTING FIR THEIR LIVES, THOR.
I do think the flippancy shows how Thor still has some growth ahead of him; which is important for the future of a character that will need to display growth in future releases…
But a lot of all this goes back and forth between treating the Avengers movies each individually, or as the larger entity
But anyway, my point is:
Criticizing Cap and Thor is better done against the characters, rather than at the writing itself; in universe analysis, rather than the creative one - or at least, to bear the two in mind when doing/reading a critique of the writing
But don’t let that sound like I think any of this discussion should cease 💙💙💙
this channel is soooo good!
i really appreciate it!
excellent essay
Oh God, Thor: Ragnarok pissed me off SO MUCH for this exact narrative. Like, dude, don't you have a whole ass kingdom to save?