@@AmondoDazz get a slot machine, get another slot machine in secret room, u get bone heart from it. use bone heart to make rock bottom, make red stew and soy milk/kidney stone.
@@Ymsee Wait, before the red stew get polyphemus or sacret heart for a great damage multiplier so Red stew has a an even greater damage up for easy destruction of delirium and hush lmao
@@Bonkus..this is pre buff so i think they had the issue that they sometimes accidentally dashed, which is a skill issue but also a little annoying if you don't want to reroute your brain if you have a habit of double tapping.
The mass migration of items to quality 0 makes no sense to me. I’ve always thought of quality 0 as the realm of items you hardly even notice are present or are actively detrimental.
Damocles increasing to quality 3 is interesting. Previously tainted lost would have a chance to reroll Damocles because of his passive effect. Given that Damocles is now quality 3, it gives tainted lost a higher chance to encounter one of his very best items in the devil room. Very cool
This exactly!! These changes were made for balance reasons not for whatever dumb reason everyone's whining about in the comments. All the items moved down just aren't very impactful and are better off being rerolled.
Yeah there are tons of changes where I went "but why?". It doesn't really matter that much at the end of the day but it feels weird. Also a big nerf for the reworked abyss overall ^^'
@@jarede.ekcaamal6006 weak? I take it like every other time when i find death certificate, its by far one of the strongest items in the game... way better q4 than for example revelation or mega blast
I still think rock bottom being changed to Q4 is ridiculous, especially since unlike most Q4s it does next to nothing picking it up late game, plus everyone includes rock bottom in the "make isic danec" list anyway so if that is genuinely why it got upped a quality that is beyond stupid
They buffed it into one of the most unique and fun items in the entire game. And then they crushed it, they buried it right next to Abel and obsessed fan.
Ah finally, Genesis got increased to a quality 4 item!! It literally allows you to rebuild your entire run with far better items from THREE choices!!!! I'm very happy it wasnt randomly reduced to quality 2 for no reason!!!!!!!
An item that has a good chance to actively make your run worse and usually makes it equal or barely better than it was before doesn't deserve to be the same tier as the quality 3 items that consistently improve your run greatly and have a good chance to straight up carry, let alone quality 4 which is almost entirely instawin items.
@@InsertFunnyThingHere I will never get why people love it so much. Like, sure it can help a lot in a weak run but you are never going to use it if you already have any good items. Tier 4 is laughable it definitely deserves tier 2. Not bad but not necessarily good
All the items being moved around so much, mainly dropping the tiers of most, will only result in more varience of items in runs, which I think will be refreshing
Lodestone Q2 is a national crime. I don't know any other Q3 that can eat up SO MUCH end boss bullets, it works like a charm against Delirium, Mother, Hush and literally everything else that spams projectiles
@@gmdapex Well, yeah normally. Problem is with so many good q3 items being dragged down to q2 and many good q2 items either being dragged down to q0 or q1 means that many decent to great items will or have a chance to be rerolled as well
Yeah I have no clue what substances they're on. A lot of the quality increases were fine, even if I don't fully agree in all cases (rock bottom on its own should not be q4), but some of the decreases in quality, even disregarding the buffs the playtesters were unaware of, are genuinely baffling.
@@kizaru7949 Rock Bottom only survives off of picking up tons of other items, and is effectively useless if not taken at the start of a run. This makes it q3 level, not q4.
But also makes Rock bottom harder to find (biased of the weigh of items) but it CAN be the one weak q4 item, like other qualities have that one item that's the weak one or the strong one
@@hooraw7760 it is, but it's technically easier to craft with the Bag of Crafting now lol ...though Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost have a chance to reroll it. hmm.
sometimes it messes up with enemies and bosses so much that you actually get damaged by them bouncing around, i often dont pick up if i have good dmg already
@@jcdenton6427 my money it’s actually because of TCain and his quality crafting mechanic. A lot of generic useful items like bomb effects, small stat ups, orbitals etc are a lot harder two get than normal, meanwhile some strong items like halo are very easy two get Also since some items got buffed, items that were essentially x but better (like cage) got demoted, and stuff that procs on hit usually is demoted 1 quality (like Midas touch)
@@gentozikalso a bunch of q4s are secret pool items even though that makes them very rare... i guess I'm not against it if it means there's a higher chance of sacred orb rerolling it but realistically when r you gonna find so many secret room items in one run
2:08 I'm really confused, the rib is one of the strongest defensive items and with the biggest hit box, dark arts is capable of trivializing a lot of fights, puzzle rooms and even bosses, it should be q3, decap attack should be directly zero if the guillotine is zero
Crack the sky getting a quality 1 is a bit of an odd spot for me since it literally destroys 50% of the bosses in the game. Although it does suck at almost every other room.
@ at base dmg, crack the sky deals 188 dmg, bob’s rotten head deals 188.5 dmg + poison cloud. Now, I know that crack the sky scales with your damage, but not by much. Let’s say Isaac now deals 12 dmg, then crack the sky now deals 256 dmg. Its dmg scaling isn’t very significant
@@victorkao1472 If two crack the sky beams hit, it does 320 damage (not including the damage scaling from isaac's damage). The beams are calculated independently and can hit the same enemy being struck by a different beam (iirc). That does require a bit of luck, but not as much now as it did when the beams were placed randomly. I will admit that bob's rotten head is significantly better for the fact that it's 1 bomb for every large room you clear, or for every 2 normal rooms, which is insanely good value. However, crack the sky does just obliterate things.
Rock Bottom is such an odd Q4. Considering how hyped the item is, it makes sense in a way, but I feel like it relies on a few other unlocks to be actively great. I've noticed while working through save files that until Reverse Chariot is unlocked, Rocky B doesn't end up feel like it's contributing much at all.
@@thefradkid insane take. 1 good card and it breaks your run. Rock bottom is at the absolute bare minimum a q3 and is still vastly superior to most q3 items in the game
Genuinely the isaac youtuber glazing is so real with these changes, rock bottom deserves Q3 at most as finding it late game does literally nothing for you 90% of the time
Death's List getting made Quality 1 is CRAZY, that item is incredibly cracked. Only time it isn't is when you're accidentally killing everything, which means that you probably don't even need stat boosts at that point.
@@jason0803 Yeah but that still makes it a strictly worse... brimstone. Why would you have brimstone every three rooms as an active, when you could just. Have brimstone every room
I hate how people hated on mars. It was my favorite item, and the shield is making it kinda uglier. Quality decrease is final nail in the coffin. Now i wont be able to gain mars with sacred orb... :{ At least itll be easier to craft on tainted cain i guess
Listing all the quality changes i personally disagree with, I will ignore any buffs added in Repentance+ Abyss (Q4 -> Q3) - While Abyss certainly isn't a must take item in most scenarios, it still is an incredibly powerful item that, if there are items available for it to take advantage of, can absolutely win the game for you by itself. Even though it is reliant on other items for it to suck up to turn into locusts, most other Q4 active items also rely on having item pedestals available to you, so I don't see why this change was necessary. Genesis (Q3 -> Q2) - This just makes absolutely no sense. While Genesis is mostly used near the end of the game in order to break runs even farther than before, it can also be used early on for an out on a bad run. Consider a run in Caves 2, where you have maybe 10 to 12 items, and an item or 2 from deals. Using Genesis here both refreshes your health, takes away any items that you maybe don't want anymore, and gives 36 more items to choose from. Even though you can only take a third of those items, it still allows you to completely rebuild your run in a way much, much stronger than just holding R and praying for good RNG. Probably one of the most egregious changes on the list. Lodestone (Q3 -> Q2) - With its ability to pull enemy tears as well, Lodestone can double as a defensive and offensive item, making it a very powerful pickup if you have higher than base luck, so moving it down a quality grade feels strange. Ocular Rift (Q3 -> Q2) - Most luck-based tear effects are rather strong, and Ocular Rift is no exception. It can pin annoying enemies to walls, get pickups out of areas blocked off with spikes, and overall shut down most melee enemies in the game. Bar of Soap + Screw (Q3 -> Q2) - With Wire Coat Hanger and The Sad Onion already being Q3 by only being a tears up, making both Bar of Soap and Screw a full quality grade lower seems rather arbitrary. Contract From Below (Q3 -> Q2) - So, so many people underestimate what this item does for the player most times. With it doubling the reward from rooms in 2/3s of cases, and removing the reward in 1/3s of cases, it is a buff similar to that of Humbling Bundle, which is also Q3. Not only that, but Humbling Bundle only affects coins, keys, bombs, and hearts, while Contract From Below affects every type of room clear reward, including chests. Albeit, Humbling Bundle works on blood banks, beggars, slot machines, and many other places where Contract From Below does not. Still, the prospect of double runes, double cards, double chests, and more does not deserve a Q2 to me. Book of the Dead (Q3 -> Q2) - Most book items will get extra leniency because of the chance to get bookworm from them, especially counting how common books are throughout the entire game. As well as that, Book of the Dead is powerful in its own right, spawning a huge swath of temporary orbitals and bony familiars. The bony familiars are especially strong, being a huge damage boost for most of the run if you can keep them alive, and the orbitals are just very good for defense. Dark Arts (Q2 -> Q1) - While not being worth taking up your active slot most of the time, it is still an amazing offensive and defensive tool, useful as a panic button during hard enemy attack patterns. Decap Attack (Q2 -> Q1) - Most people don't know this, but you can recall the head after throwing it by pressing the active item button again. With this knowledge, Decap Attack can become a very useful offensive tool in many scenarios, though I'm still a bit iffy on whether it warrants Q2 or not. Divine Intervention (Q2 -> Q1) - The only reason it isn't used more during gameplay is that people forget it exists most of the time. If there was an indicator that it was ready, then it may even be Q3 for some people. Still, when used right, Divine Intervention can be an amazing defensive item in a pinch, so going down to Q1 is strange. Slipped Rib (Q2 -> Q1) - Essentially a more consistent Big Fan against projectiles that doesn't deal contact damage. Free defense that is nice, but not too powerful deserves a middling quality, not a worse than average quality. Strawman (Q2 -> Q1) - While I personally never use it right, Strawman can be an incredibly strong item if used correctly, being able to take the other item on a choice pedestal, allowing free sacrifice rooms, giving extra damage even without items, it is much too strong to go down a quality grade, even if hard to use correctly. Berserk! (Q2 -> Q1) - Berserk is simply very strong, being the cornerstone of an entire character, so it doesn't make sense why something that could save your skin in so many scenarios gets thrown down a quality grade. Vanishing Twin (Q2 -> Q1) - To me, Vanishing Twin is a sort of "The rich get richer" item, where you take it to make an already good run even better. Having a risk factor while also having a chance to get a huge reward makes Q2, the absolute midpoint in quality, make sense for it. Sacrificial Altar (Q2 -> Q1) - Jesus Christ man, Sacrificial Altar is one of the better devil items in the game, giving you quite a few devil items in exchange for your familiars, and with the average quality of familiars compared to the devil item pool, trading a Brother Bobby and a Demon Baby for a The Pact and an Abaddon feels like a trade worthy of at least more than Q1. Monstrance (Q2 -> Q1) - Given how large the area of effect is for Monstrance, it can be treated simply as free damage most of the time, so it's baffling why it got dropped down to Q1. Red Candle (Q2 -> Q1) - A fire, on command, that recharges every 4 seconds, that does a hefty amount of damage to anything it touches, down to Quality 1. Even though it takes an active item slot, it still can be a run winner all by itself. Even the passive version of it, Bird's Eye, is Quality 3, despite being less consistent (Though I agree Bird's Eye should be Q3, and Red Candle Q2) Evil Charm (Q2 -> Q1) - The +2 Luck Up is already decently deserving of Q2 in my eyes, and the extra status effect immunity is just the cherry on top. The buff it got in Repentance+ makes it on the high end of Q2 for me. Pointy Rib (Q2 -> Q1) - For what is considered a speedrunner item that can decimate a large majority of the enemies in the game, that does up to 2x damage while running forward, Q1 seems a tad reductive. Even without paying too much attention to it, it still increases a run's potential damage more than some other Q2s. Head of Krampus (Q2 -> Q1) - While being the worse of the two Krampus drops, it still is a blast of 4 brimstone beams in all of the cardinal directions that deals with most rooms in the entire game, and an item that chunks off a huge portion of enemy health. Spear of Destiny (Q2 -> Q1) - Same deal as Pointy Rib, though it does 2x damage no matter your movement, while having a shorter range. Free damage is free damage. Alabaster Box (Q2 -> Q1) - Literally 2 Angel Room items at the cost of 6 soul hearts, and 3 of those soul hearts get refunded. A very powerful item considering the pool it pulls from. Why must these Quality changes make no sense. Placebo (Q2 -> Q1) - With the Quality 2 pool of items holding a large amount of situational, but very useful items, Placebo seems to me like one of the most fitting of that description. Getting a Tears Up pill on the run and then finding it later for you to placebo, a 48 Hour Energy pill, a Vurp! pill, a Luck Up pill, and so much more could be absolutely amazing for Placebo, not to mention the synergy it gets with Lucky Foot and PHD making all pills good, and PHD revealing all pill effects. Lost Soul (Q2 -> Q1) - Grabbing Lost Soul after clearing out the floor can guarantee a heart container, 3 soul hearts, or even an Angel Room item. The pure potential of Lost Soul, while hard to realize, makes it a perfect Q2 in my eyes. Blue Map (Q2 -> Q1) - Blue Map is literally one of the best QoL items in the entire game, preventing you from wasting your bombs, and letting you never miss an opportunity to find Secret Room items. Incredibly powerful, incredibly arbitrary quality nerf. Ball of Bandages + Cube of Meat (Q2 -> Q1) - With stacks of both items contributing to what could turn out to be a monster of a familiar while also being decent orbitals in their own right, they should, at the very least, be higher up than the orbitals that were lowered down to Q1. You're telling me that Big Fan doesn't do the exact same thing as these items? Little Gish (Q2 -> Q1) - Free slowdowns on any enemies that Little Gish hits is powerful in its own right, and, while not being as strong as any Q3 of course, it still deserves to stay in the middle of the pack in terms of Item Quality. Cambion Conception (Q2 -> Q1) - With how easy it is to take self-damage while also getting a reward from it, adding an extra reward on top of your sac room plays that could turn out to be some of the best items in the game, it's strange that it now shares a spot with Farting Baby. Converter (Q2 -> Q1) - Again, "the niche items that could be incredibly powerful in the right situations" theme of Q2 strikes again, with Converter allowing for safer Devil Room items and safer later floors in general, it's strange it gets demoted as well. D8 (Q2 -> Q1) - With the D8 possibly being an on-command 2x stats multiplier, it could save many a bad run. Even if you get the worst roll known to man and go to half of your actual stats, you only need to bear 4 more rooms until you can roll yourself into a better roll, and when you get the stats you want, you can simply stop using D8. It's only a matter of time while you have this item that you get monster stats. Big Fan (Q2 > Q1) - Same as Slipped Rib. Book of Sin (Q2 -> Q1) - Bookworm transformation and free pickups for the rest of the game seems rather powerful. It guarantees that you have at least a few pickups, allowing you access to item rooms, secret rooms, shops, chests, planetariums, and so much more. (Rest in replies)
You just saved me a lot of typing. Honestly, a lot of the downgrades feel less like "this item isn't very useful" and more "the playtesters didn't realize/don't care what you can do with this" (especially with items like Strawman and Esau Jr.).
Little Chubby (Q2 -> Q1) - Simply a strong projectile familiar that I will not stand for being lowered to the likes of Angry goddamn Fly. Mars (Q2 -> Q0) - Quality Zero holds the worst items in the game, items that help you in no conceivable way, or actively detriment you. Putting a Planetarium item, that gives you free access to Curse Rooms, or any pickup blocked off by spikes, in with fucking Abel and Plan C, feels insulting. At absolute most, make it Q1. Guillotine (Q2 -> Q0) - Same argument as Mars. A hefty tears and damage up that also gives you a strong offensive and defensive orbital for the cost of a less clear hitbox and wonky firing angle feels like the perfect candidate for a Q2 item. Practically any stats up will be better than the vast majority of Q0 items. Will edit this later with the rest of my thoughts, but for now, my hands hurt.
Holy heck bro, I had also made my own list of lowered items and now just seeing yours releives me that I'm not the only person here that makes super long lists of unfair item placements. Though I usually compared them to other items higher than their qualities like Book of sin(quality 1) and Mystery sack(quality 2). What they probably did was to put items lower just because "they are objectively worse in stats" like cupid's arrow and sagitarrius being on different tiers just because of a speed up or screw and bar of soap being lower than sad onion because there is a slim difference in tears.
Is Q1 really that unfair considering it's an active iten that requires something extra in order to function? It's a devil deal so there's a price up front plus the need for familiars. No doubt it's very strong when you can use it, but that's an *if* Like, if it was Q2 it would make sense as well. But Q1 doesn't feel so wild to me.
Fans demand, many people don't want to use because they preffer to keep they familiar, personaly I don't even like it when I find it in curse room, because I know that I will lose 2 first familiars I get. Once I used it on 3 spiders because I found OP baby.
To be completely fair. Accidentally grabbing Guillotine is an instant run killer since it visually destroys the run for me. But I understand that other people are still able to use it effectively.
@@Da_ComputerMonster But Lazy Mattman likes Guillotine, and most bad/controversial items in the game. He's the most "Sure I'll pick up my reflection with ipecac and cursed eye for the fun of it" RUclipsr I know. I don't want to sound like I am baselessly defending him, but get your facts straight next time.
@@2stral the problem is that is a D4 so you reroll all your held items everytime and is a D8 so it rerolls your multipliers (which you normally take, use it until you get a good damage multiplier, and never use it again). it combines dice that you wanna use every time with dice you rarely use more than once or twice.
I feel it's worth noting that item quality comes into play extremely rarely. If you don't play Tainted Lost or Tainted Apollyon, it'll only come up if you find Sacred Orb. Due to the way item quality works with these characters, you're actually MORE likely to find higher quality items on average since there's zero mechanics that favor the lower qualities. Item *weight* is the statistic that actually matters.
I feel like Rock Bottom should get an addition to it to make it feel like its quality 4. + Any stat that is lower than their default value will be raised back to their default values upon picking the item up.
THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A DECENT CHANGE. Like I’m thinking if Eves mascara, a much more consistently run winning item should still be quality three, then rock bottom probably should have something to make it semi consistently perform to at least a quality three level. Right now Rock bottom doesn’t do anything on its own, on pickup it quite literally does nothing, but it’s power comes from the potential for one of the MANY items that pump one of your stats to an extreme to show up following the pickup. It CAN be fantastic but most often it doesn’t do much and as it is right now, I don’t think it meets the criteria for a quality 4. A change like what you suggested would definitely make it at least pretty consistent most of the time while still including the run breaking potential that makes it quality three in the first place.
Make it maximum polarizing: set all stats back to default, but all future stat decreases are fully obliterated, instead of just being hidden and ignored. (or be more chill and just set all stats to halfway between their current value and default instead.)
"Totally not deserved" when showing Rock Bottom. BASED. Finally someone that shares my opinion on Rock bottom being kinda meh most runs. It is good but when I hear people say it is an insta win item I go feral
THE INTRUDER TO Q2??? THIS IS ACTUALLY CRAZY so many good q2s got pushed down...divine intervention, sac altar, eraser, monstance, akeldama, VADE RETRO?? these items are genuinely really good, just because theyre not gamebreaking doesnt mean theyre not q2 atleast wtf red candle, alabaster and lost soul dont deserve this either AND CAMBION CONCEPTION??? who did this???? all the map items getting pushed down as well for NO reason LMFAOO guilottine getting q0 is straight up skill issue. i fuckin hate that item and even i can admit that
@art-cs6us Cuz every q4 item makes it so that u have a guaranteed win with it (unless its an active q4 or its a skill issue) but with rock bottom u have to use ur brain and min max it to make it a worthwhile item.Rock bottom is def my top 5 fav item im jus saying it dosen't need q4 its good as a q3.
@@malikfaiz6607 if mantle is q4 then why can you still die as the lost lmao. Also ipecac + dr fetus can destroy you. Pyromaniac also requires having lots of bombs and enough red hp to benefit from it. Godhead is decent, but it being flat damage instead of % based makes it worse on low tear rate runs. No quality 4 is game winning completely by itself (except ARGUBLY epic fetus/knife/maybe cac but its painful without tear upgrades), you want other items to supplement them. And rock bottom is essentially the perfect supplementary item to a bunch of equations. You do not need to min max with rock bottom, you can just pop a card or tenporary stat book, and still do good enough. Makes it so you don't have to get hit to retain bloody lust/gust, or not lose out on crown/purity, and mitigates risk of certain items.
@@malikfaiz6607 Not every quality 4 guarantees a won run, there are quality 4 items that have significant downsides to them, rock bottom is the definition of not having a downside; If you use even like two cards it can give you more stats than a lot of strong q4s. You don't have to "min max" to make it worthwhile, using a single strength card gives you a (semi) perma Magic Mush
d100 to quality 1 is crazy, if you ever just find it you roll a few times until a good stat line, I have NEVER had a bad run with it, getting good value from it is an inevitability and the only times you ignore it is when you're already op
As you said, they'll no doubt readjust the quality of the buffed items as the beta goes along. Still though, some of the placements as is are quite amusing.
@@jason0803 People not knowing you can just make Specialist play for *literally any item you want by not having it on default settings* I have it play for fuckin Tech 2 and Smelter because I love those items, that doesn't mean I think they deserve Q4 lmfao
Knowing Edmund, he can change the quality values just to troll the fans, and then bring everything back. Otherwise, I don't know how to explain that Lil portal and Mars are q0 now. Oh, and rock bottom💀
Finally some love for Lachryphagy! I always felt like it deserved Q3 for sure, one of my personal favourite items in the game, so satisfying with the right setup
every time i have it it usually makes the enemy tears not even move from the spot they are fired it deserves quality 3 for just costing 1 heart at the devil deal
@@art-cs6us Yeah they’re definitely downsides but I think being able to consistently trivialise at least half of some of the hardest bosses in the games attacks at low luck still makes up for taking maybe 2 hearts of damage that you wouldn’t have over the course of a whole run. Most of the time the hardest obstacles in the game are the final bosses, and even good players can just simply not have enough time and damage to preserve like 8 hearts through the mega satan fight or Delirium or something. However having even one or two Ocular rift procs throughout one of those fights might even double the amount of time you can safely attack. procs of Ocular rift aren’t just additional attacks, they’re invaluable breaks that allow the player to either survive a little longer or even just trivialise the hardest fights in the whole game if their luck or tears stats are high enough. And something like that I think is completely deserving of quality three.
new Lil' Portal being Q0 is nuts. At worst it lets you smuggle multiple trinkets and/or cards through multiple floors. At best you get Moving Box inside and can just dump items in there for reroll rigging. Rock Bottom also shouldn't by Q4, it needs support to rig the game.
It was said in the video that the quality given was for before the items got buffed, so they are probably gonna change it later since this is still in beta
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy with Rock Bottom, you still need to find the other items at the right time to break the game. With Glitched Crown and Sacred Orb, you _will_ find those other items, they make it happen.
@@Sugarman96 You just need to find two ways of temporarily increasing your stats with rock bottom, it aint that hard to get a broken run going with it. You can still only get dogshit items with sacred orb and crown
I really dont get rock-bottom getting quality 4. Heck, even quality 2 would be a stretch (fight me). The item is not good on its own, depends on you getting it early and then finding specific items (in order preferably) so you can feel any benefit. I think any strength rock-bottom would have comes from easy access to build around it early, but quality 4 is basically a nail in the coffin.
i know but it still mentally bothers me cuz it's effectively the official tier list for the game. i still wanna argue whether rock bottom is a q4 or not because it's fun to do
@@invisible-car-man So I guess you spam the everloving shit out of wavy cap 24/7 whenever you get it? It gives you an amazing tears up. Also, the shooting is not the issue with it, is that it misaligns you hitbox from your head. Had it still shown your head on your body and a normal orbital flew around you and shot your tears it would be pretty good.
The isaac youtuber glazing is so real this patch Nevermind how half these changes were made under a "loud obnoxious youtubers always/never use this item so it must be amazing/bad!!" scope (yes I'm aware these quality changes were made before the item buffs so I'm not questioning why lil portal is Q0 now despite probably at least being Q3-4) But it also makes T.losts already confusing quality reroll mechanic make even less sense
I really wish they would make Krampus head give you Leviathan. The fact that u either get coal or NOTHING if you already have a spacebar item really irks me
@idlegameplayer3756 yeah it is really strong. But in most runs I wouldn't give up utility for raw damage if I already got a decent item. Especially since a lot of use items can be core to your gameplan
@@yeahmemia having no / a bad active item pretty late into a run is more common than you think. though with angel room being better than devil deals it gets even less of a chance to shine
@@idlegameplayer3756 not in my experience. But still the point is not that head of krampus is bad, but that it feels bad when you don't get coal and already have a use item u don't want to lose. If it gave u leviathan it'd at least stop feeli g like a complete cheapout
Honestly I thought it made sense considering it's in the Boss item pool, basically the tears ups and damage ups being Q3 relative to the other items in their pool
Rock bottom DID NOT deserve quality 4 It always felt like Deep Pockets or Jacob's Ladder to me, the concept is fun but there are rarely any runs when you find it early and actually get profit out of it
yeah rock bottom is either you get one of the items that synergizes with it and now you have OP god run or you don’t and it does almost nothing all run q4 items should practically win runs on their own imo
@@n2k970I can think of several q4s that I think are worse than rock bottom at specifically that. Rock does take luck but the payoff for using it correctly is too insane for q3. And most of the time rock does pay off, I’d say like 80%.
in what world does champion conception and vanishing twin deserve to be q1, if you now how to play those are just free items (also before someone tells me that vanishing twin is useless past womb so is there is options as well as more options and those are q3) . also q0 mars is insane (just more reasons to not pick sacred orb)
Almost all of these changes make no sense and feel incredibly biased tbh. Like dark arts in t1? That item trivialises half the rooms and bosses in the game, not even mentioning all other uses i-frames on command have. And thats only one example, there are a lot of changes like this here
@JohnSmith-kt3yy what The hell are You talking about Glitch crown is literally 5 ítems un one pedestal, and sacred orb makes The ítems better Quality, it's a huge thing that saves almost every run no matter how Bad your run was, but rock bottom is practically useless if You had no way to gain stats
@@marygamer3058 You always have ways to increase your stats with rock bottom. Sacred orb and glitched crown require other items too do anything, and even then theres only a chance they will make any significant difference.
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy, ummm. tell me how to break a game with 🪨. haha you can't. cause there are literally 2-3 possible ways. with glitched crown you can pick whatever item you wants.
You always have ways of increasing your stats? How? Rock bottom is an item that requires very specific item/card combos to really shine whereas glitched crown and sacred orb consistently have a VERY noticeable effect throughout the run. Maybe you wanna argue that since you can use a strength card to mimic magic mush it's deserving of Q4, sure. I'd still say that magic mush is better in that case because you don't make to make your stats back to increase them again and you also get a full heal to work with. Rock bottom is in a very rare pool and NEEDS you to get it early to really get it to work, that's what stunts it the most. tldr; rock bottom doesn't consistently impact runs like other Q4 items do, it's way more high rolley.
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy Sacred Orb literally prevent low quality items from spawning so you have better items, what does rock bottom do if your run is mid? Nothing. Rig potential doesn't mean it should get Q4, there's lot of times where Rock bottom does little to nothing, just like Chaos who is a Q3, it should have stayed the same.
I thot that rock botton wasnt q4 because the item by itself didnt do anything and all the quality 4 itens do something unique or are realy powerfull, but I think it deserves the quality 4 because it do something unique
Ok, who what where those testers smoking? so many alright items are now q0, lmao.... also yeah, rock bottom should stay q3, considering the thing does nothing on it's own
Quick reminder for everyone that the Repentance+ team is not the same one that worked on Repentance (that being primarily Edmund and the Antibirth team) and that explains why these changes seem to make no sense to anyone who's been following development during the Rep era.
No, I agree with you about rock bottom. It's not broken by itself and even then it has it's limitations. It's nigh useless later in the run and really only certain items can really break it. If any Q3 item should be upgraded to Q4, I'd vote for Spoon Bender. Homing shots are insanely useful.
spoon bender being in the same tier as "spoon bender but better twice (godhead/sacred heart)" doesn't seem right either imo, q3 is fine where it is now
I think that Jacob's ladder (muh beloved) or Spirit Sword can look in line with the q4 items: • dramatically increases dps •badass sprite •tear gain a unique effect or are outright replaced •insane gamebreaking synergies However, i am happy they are not q4. In my mind, q3 = "unapologetically busted if you know what you're doing", q4 = "unapologetically busted UNCONDITIONALLY and SOLO".
@@ottoweekend5691 holy mantle drastically increases your defenses It makes no sense to have Spoon bender be a q4. Aiming better is a much easier task than avoiding damage in end game rooms. In a vacuum even piercing > homing
That's not how that work , every Item have there own change Spawn , that's why satanic bible is so common and why epic fetus is so rare , this is only number inidicator for how powerfull Item is - not chance of finding Item
Wait! Lil Portal being almost a moving box now went from 1 to 0? Dafuq? And yeah, I agree with Rock Bottom being Q4 isn't deserved. Q3 is the tier for it. Had a Eden run with RB start and almost got no stats up through the entire run, but managed to beat lamb somehow. It doesn't nothing by himself but is a awesome *situational* item.
I still can’t believe their are people really one the “rock is not q4” train. If I were making a tier list in Isaac for all the items the very top tier would be death certificate worthy. Reserved exclusively for items that will be considered when taking death certificate. The number of items in that tier is very small and yet rock would be in it imo. If any item is even in the conversation when you get death certificate then it’s q4.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
I can't wait to turn my 8 hour tainted cain runs into 12 hour tainted cain runs with the lil portal rework
I havent even touched T. Cain. Im still gonna figure out how to win as him 😭😂
@@AmondoDazz get a slot machine, get another slot machine in secret room, u get bone heart from it. use bone heart to make rock bottom, make red stew and soy milk/kidney stone.
@@Ymseeget d20 - > get habit - > get a reroll machine shop - > infinite run
@@Ymsee Wait, before the red stew get polyphemus or sacret heart for a great damage multiplier so Red stew has a an even greater damage up for easy destruction of delirium and hush lmao
BRUUUUUH, Tainted Cain is about to be the last character I play, because that 1st Lil Portap run will never end😂
even before the buff, Mars didn't deserve q0
also, Halo q3 is crazy
Halo is still prolly the weakest all stats up item but being q2 meant it was really easy two craft
i loved mars
no dash delay
now there is a delay but that doesnt change much
still love it
Maybe is probally thanks to a little issue with the item, the dlc is still in beta so let's wait
I believe that Halo being q3 Is a little too much for a weak 'all starts up' but it was too op for being q3 aswell so a q2.5 would have suffice
I hate mars and will not like it but only because it interacts weirdly with movement on a console
every single raise makes sense to me. About half the reductions are insane and should not have been done imo
Like 'This item i hate, so quality reduction to you'
Especially the q1 --> q0 and mars to q0
@@Bonkus..this is pre buff so i think they had the issue that they sometimes accidentally dashed, which is a skill issue but also a little annoying if you don't want to reroute your brain if you have a habit of double tapping.
Absolutely agree, way too many perfectly fine items got downgraded for no reason
@@Nitosathe best part of rougelikes or e is HAVING to reroute your brain
The mass migration of items to quality 0 makes no sense to me. I’ve always thought of quality 0 as the realm of items you hardly even notice are present or are actively detrimental.
or that are detrimental as their purpose and thought to be soo
For real though, mars did NOT deserve this slander Ong free my boy mars ✊😔
I'm getting very strong "my favorite Isaac RUclipsr/Twitch streamer never uses this so it must be objectively bad" vibes on some of these.
@@SanjayMerchant so true lmao
@@SanjayMerchant For real.
Damocles increasing to quality 3 is interesting. Previously tainted lost would have a chance to reroll Damocles because of his passive effect. Given that Damocles is now quality 3, it gives tainted lost a higher chance to encounter one of his very best items in the devil room. Very cool
Now we just need to get Cursed Eye to quality 3
One of the few changes i agree with
When I saw it I went "wait what it was quality 2?"
This exactly!! These changes were made for balance reasons not for whatever dumb reason everyone's whining about in the comments. All the items moved down just aren't very impactful and are better off being rerolled.
@@Deadflower019
Tbh I thought that most of the changes would’ve been for the sake of T. Cain crafting.
The buffed items aren't what confuse me, it's all the other really strong items getting a reduction in quality that strikes me as bizarre.
Yeah there are tons of changes where I went "but why?". It doesn't really matter that much at the end of the day but it feels weird. Also a big nerf for the reworked abyss overall ^^'
@@SlayXc2 Also for sacred orb overall you have less chance of getting overall good items like ocular rift and genesis
And that is without counting the fact that some reductions felt to harsly for the item overall use
Dark arts and death list down to Q1 is criminal
If you have Sacred Orb-an item that all but gurantees better items-why in the world would you EVER want to reroll your whole build?
mmmh... yes... eyesacc now dance when funny rock shows up
And that's the only reasons this happened... That and make it the 'weak q4 item'
@@jarede.ekcaamal6006 weak? I take it like every other time when i find death certificate, its by far one of the strongest items in the game... way better q4 than for example revelation or mega blast
I still think rock bottom being changed to Q4 is ridiculous, especially since unlike most Q4s it does next to nothing picking it up late game, plus everyone includes rock bottom in the "make isic danec" list anyway so if that is genuinely why it got upped a quality that is beyond stupid
portal being buffed into basically a quality 4 item while having it's quality lowered to ZERO is so funny to me
I'd argue it's only quality 3, but yeah quality 0 is crazy
They buffed it into one of the most unique and fun items in the entire game. And then they crushed it, they buried it right next to Abel and obsessed fan.
The tiers were changed BEFORE their buffs, try listening to the video
@@AlkalineSpherebut why though. what’s the point in doing that
@@AlkalineSphere yeah i did, its funny
Ah finally, Genesis got increased to a quality 4 item!! It literally allows you to rebuild your entire run with far better items from THREE choices!!!! I'm very happy it wasnt randomly reduced to quality 2 for no reason!!!!!!!
lmao yeah same thought, that item can make great run into insane run, and a bad run into a good one
it deletes active items you doglet
An item that has a good chance to actively make your run worse and usually makes it equal or barely better than it was before doesn't deserve to be the same tier as the quality 3 items that consistently improve your run greatly and have a good chance to straight up carry, let alone quality 4 which is almost entirely instawin items.
@@InsertFunnyThingHere i used genesis many times and pretty much every time it's net positive
@@InsertFunnyThingHere I will never get why people love it so much. Like, sure it can help a lot in a weak run but you are never going to use it if you already have any good items. Tier 4 is laughable it definitely deserves tier 2. Not bad but not necessarily good
so many of these changes make completely no sense i expect a lot of them to be changed once again after the beta ends
If im being honest i hard disagree with like half of these
I hard disagree with most of them. Either this is peak trolling or he is actually delusional
the betatesters were either high as fuck or never played the game, lmao.
They put my Man Birdcage in the 0 quality.
Man is Number 1 in MY book.
All the items being moved around so much, mainly dropping the tiers of most, will only result in more varience of items in runs, which I think will be refreshing
yeah same. red candle and dark arts going from q2 to q1 are the biggest wtf i have in mind
Lodestone Q2 is a national crime. I don't know any other Q3 that can eat up SO MUCH end boss bullets, it works like a charm against Delirium, Mother, Hush and literally everything else that spams projectiles
Its such an underrated item tbh
I mean it kind of makes it easier to find at least, like for tainted Bethany’s wisps or tainted cain’s crafting
It also helps you little with accuracy, since magneted enemies will absorb your tears.
occular rift is another Q3 that eats up boss bullets... ☹
I know one. Ocular rift.
Oh wait.
People after the void buff: "void is a real tier 4 now"
Void Becoming tier 3:
Also, lil portal and mars are objectively the best tier 0
The tiers were changed BEFORE their buffs, try listening to the video
@@Cannonhed1_0Mars is practicaly as good as Q3 now, it's funny it's technicaly Q0 now.
@@AlkalineSphere wa wa wa idc
If you use "tier" in Isaac I think you should end it (jk)
I wish they'd stop touching the item qualities. So annoying at this point. It messes with T.Lost pool constantly too.
Preach brother, preach
except for damocles. Now that it's q3, t lost won't have a chance to re-roll it
There were more quality reductions that I disagree with than I expected...
The betatesters were high, change my mind
Bro sacred orb is gonna be fucking SSS tier now what the hell 😭
Pretty sure it already was
yeah but now it's removing a lot of good items that got moved down
@@mrbrimstone7115the upsides outweigh the downsides here I think
It always has been
@@gmdapex Well, yeah normally. Problem is with so many good q3 items being dragged down to q2 and many good q2 items either being dragged down to q0 or q1 means that many decent to great items will or have a chance to be rerolled as well
1:50 i chuckled when i read the Q3 -> Q1 only for a lone D100 to appear
It’s not that funny sybau
Fun is not allowed I guess 😭
So, I think we can all agree that these game testers have never played this video game in their life?
Yeah I have no clue what substances they're on.
A lot of the quality increases were fine, even if I don't fully agree in all cases (rock bottom on its own should not be q4), but some of the decreases in quality, even disregarding the buffs the playtesters were unaware of, are genuinely baffling.
@occasionalart7597 rock bottom as ur last item: almos pointless
try sayind that to criket's head and they'll see what q4 really are
@@occasionalartin my opinion rock bottom EASLEY represents the power of q4 items so its a perfect q4 in my opinion
@@kizaru7949 Rock Bottom only survives off of picking up tons of other items, and is effectively useless if not taken at the start of a run. This makes it q3 level, not q4.
But also makes Rock bottom harder to find (biased of the weigh of items) but it CAN be the one weak q4 item, like other qualities have that one item that's the weak one or the strong one
aint no way they downgraded my boy knockout drops to quality 2
Spindown Dice enjoyers eatin good
Ikr
@@agnacoreSpindown dice is based on item IDs, though?
@@hooraw7760 it is, but it's technically easier to craft with the Bag of Crafting now lol
...though Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost have a chance to reroll it. hmm.
sometimes it messes up with enemies and bosses so much that you actually get damaged by them bouncing around, i often dont pick up if i have good dmg already
Nah some of those quality reduction are insanely biased.
Fricking charged baby and ocular rift q2 😭
Community based it seems, I wouldn't trust the majority on that topic
Putting guillotine at 0 is a skill issue
@@jcdenton6427 my money it’s actually because of TCain and his quality crafting mechanic. A lot of generic useful items like bomb effects, small stat ups, orbitals etc are a lot harder two get than normal, meanwhile some strong items like halo are very easy two get
Also since some items got buffed, items that were essentially x but better (like cage) got demoted, and stuff that procs on hit usually is demoted 1 quality (like Midas touch)
Isaac community showing their skill issue to the devs with these changes
Ok, now I agree with the people who say item quality is bullshit
Imagine flying is Tier 2.
Like, it's one of the, maybe even THE best non-combat-buff a player can have
A) secret pool item
B) We have "Flight + smth" T3 items
@@gentozikflight alone is worth q3
@@gentozikalso a bunch of q4s are secret pool items even though that makes them very rare... i guess I'm not against it if it means there's a higher chance of sacred orb rerolling it but realistically when r you gonna find so many secret room items in one run
@@gentozik just because it's in the secret room pool doesn't affect where it's placed
2:08 I'm really confused, the rib is one of the strongest defensive items and with the biggest hit box, dark arts is capable of trivializing a lot of fights, puzzle rooms and even bosses, it should be q3, decap attack should be directly zero if the guillotine is zero
@@somebody4094 I've legitimately oneshot Mega Satan's last phase with Dark Arts lol, such a fun item
@@agnacore and t judas is broken as hell
Also purgatory is quality 2 now? You instantly clear a third of the rooms just by steping on the rift once
Crack the sky getting a quality 1 is a bit of an odd spot for me since it literally destroys 50% of the bosses in the game. Although it does suck at almost every other room.
Sames goes with krampus head, 440+ dmg is no joke
Bob's rotten head actually just straight up deals more dmg and is a 2 room charge + bomb utility
@@victorkao1472 Bob's rotten head does significantly less damage
@ at base dmg, crack the sky deals 188 dmg, bob’s rotten head deals 188.5 dmg + poison cloud.
Now, I know that crack the sky scales with your damage, but not by much. Let’s say Isaac now deals 12 dmg, then crack the sky now deals 256 dmg. Its dmg scaling isn’t very significant
@@victorkao1472 If two crack the sky beams hit, it does 320 damage (not including the damage scaling from isaac's damage). The beams are calculated independently and can hit the same enemy being struck by a different beam (iirc).
That does require a bit of luck, but not as much now as it did when the beams were placed randomly.
I will admit that bob's rotten head is significantly better for the fact that it's 1 bomb for every large room you clear, or for every 2 normal rooms, which is insanely good value. However, crack the sky does just obliterate things.
Rock Bottom is such an odd Q4. Considering how hyped the item is, it makes sense in a way, but I feel like it relies on a few other unlocks to be actively great. I've noticed while working through save files that until Reverse Chariot is unlocked, Rocky B doesn't end up feel like it's contributing much at all.
rock bottom is q2 item.
@@thefradkid insane take. 1 good card and it breaks your run. Rock bottom is at the absolute bare minimum a q3 and is still vastly superior to most q3 items in the game
@@VisionsofDagdae HAhahahahah BRUH
Genuinely the isaac youtuber glazing is so real with these changes, rock bottom deserves Q3 at most as finding it late game does literally nothing for you 90% of the time
@@thefradkid Win streak of 2 type of opinion that you got there
Lachryphagy finally at q3 is absolute peak Isaac, the majority of the other changes are absolutely wild though.
The raids of the quality in the items makes somewhat sence (Rock bottom ONLY for the Isaac dance mod) but the reductions makes almost no sence to me
Yep, hooray lachryphagy is so great
Lachryphagy should be kept at q2 just for the tendency to crash my damn game each time I sinergize it
Death's List getting made Quality 1 is CRAZY, that item is incredibly cracked. Only time it isn't is when you're accidentally killing everything, which means that you probably don't even need stat boosts at that point.
It basically gives you +1 and a couple of consumables. It aint q1 bad, but it is far from cracked.
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy Any item that can give +0.5 Tears and +1 Damage is cracked in my book.
it's actually really underrated and fun to use, the pickups even help a lot
@@aggapuffin I mean, so can the yellow syringe but I aint picking that up either, nor do I pick up dataminer
@@pelz16 It's fine, good even, but it aint incredibly cracked.
making cupids arrow, charged baby, intruder, and transcendence quality 2 instead of 3 is actually insane
Sulfur and Genesis at 2 are just insane
Sulfur at 2 is okay
@@Noet3blasphemy
@@jason0803 what do you mean
@@Noet3 sulfur is literally brimstone every 3 rooms. Don’t forget boss rush / greed / any boss ever
@@jason0803 Yeah but that still makes it a strictly worse... brimstone. Why would you have brimstone every three rooms as an active, when you could just. Have brimstone every room
rock buttom is just for the meme mod with the music
You can say that again, but also it makes it the weak q4 item that the pool needed
@jarede.ekcaamal6006 we already have almost non-scalable fetus in a jar btw
Lil Portal and Mars getting sent to quality 0 AFTER their buff is insane. Especially Mars, considering its a planetarium
More proof they have no idea what theyre doing with the balancing 😂
Did you not listen to the video? 0:42
The development of this game has always been very fucked
I hate how people hated on mars. It was my favorite item, and the shield is making it kinda uglier. Quality decrease is final nail in the coffin. Now i wont be able to gain mars with sacred orb... :{
At least itll be easier to craft on tainted cain i guess
bro only watched 10 seconds of the video
Listing all the quality changes i personally disagree with, I will ignore any buffs added in Repentance+
Abyss (Q4 -> Q3) - While Abyss certainly isn't a must take item in most scenarios, it still is an incredibly powerful item that, if there are items available for it to take advantage of, can absolutely win the game for you by itself. Even though it is reliant on other items for it to suck up to turn into locusts, most other Q4 active items also rely on having item pedestals available to you, so I don't see why this change was necessary.
Genesis (Q3 -> Q2) - This just makes absolutely no sense. While Genesis is mostly used near the end of the game in order to break runs even farther than before, it can also be used early on for an out on a bad run. Consider a run in Caves 2, where you have maybe 10 to 12 items, and an item or 2 from deals. Using Genesis here both refreshes your health, takes away any items that you maybe don't want anymore, and gives 36 more items to choose from. Even though you can only take a third of those items, it still allows you to completely rebuild your run in a way much, much stronger than just holding R and praying for good RNG. Probably one of the most egregious changes on the list.
Lodestone (Q3 -> Q2) - With its ability to pull enemy tears as well, Lodestone can double as a defensive and offensive item, making it a very powerful pickup if you have higher than base luck, so moving it down a quality grade feels strange.
Ocular Rift (Q3 -> Q2) - Most luck-based tear effects are rather strong, and Ocular Rift is no exception. It can pin annoying enemies to walls, get pickups out of areas blocked off with spikes, and overall shut down most melee enemies in the game.
Bar of Soap + Screw (Q3 -> Q2) - With Wire Coat Hanger and The Sad Onion already being Q3 by only being a tears up, making both Bar of Soap and Screw a full quality grade lower seems rather arbitrary.
Contract From Below (Q3 -> Q2) - So, so many people underestimate what this item does for the player most times. With it doubling the reward from rooms in 2/3s of cases, and removing the reward in 1/3s of cases, it is a buff similar to that of Humbling Bundle, which is also Q3. Not only that, but Humbling Bundle only affects coins, keys, bombs, and hearts, while Contract From Below affects every type of room clear reward, including chests. Albeit, Humbling Bundle works on blood banks, beggars, slot machines, and many other places where Contract From Below does not. Still, the prospect of double runes, double cards, double chests, and more does not deserve a Q2 to me.
Book of the Dead (Q3 -> Q2) - Most book items will get extra leniency because of the chance to get bookworm from them, especially counting how common books are throughout the entire game. As well as that, Book of the Dead is powerful in its own right, spawning a huge swath of temporary orbitals and bony familiars. The bony familiars are especially strong, being a huge damage boost for most of the run if you can keep them alive, and the orbitals are just very good for defense.
Dark Arts (Q2 -> Q1) - While not being worth taking up your active slot most of the time, it is still an amazing offensive and defensive tool, useful as a panic button during hard enemy attack patterns.
Decap Attack (Q2 -> Q1) - Most people don't know this, but you can recall the head after throwing it by pressing the active item button again. With this knowledge, Decap Attack can become a very useful offensive tool in many scenarios, though I'm still a bit iffy on whether it warrants Q2 or not.
Divine Intervention (Q2 -> Q1) - The only reason it isn't used more during gameplay is that people forget it exists most of the time. If there was an indicator that it was ready, then it may even be Q3 for some people. Still, when used right, Divine Intervention can be an amazing defensive item in a pinch, so going down to Q1 is strange.
Slipped Rib (Q2 -> Q1) - Essentially a more consistent Big Fan against projectiles that doesn't deal contact damage. Free defense that is nice, but not too powerful deserves a middling quality, not a worse than average quality.
Strawman (Q2 -> Q1) - While I personally never use it right, Strawman can be an incredibly strong item if used correctly, being able to take the other item on a choice pedestal, allowing free sacrifice rooms, giving extra damage even without items, it is much too strong to go down a quality grade, even if hard to use correctly.
Berserk! (Q2 -> Q1) - Berserk is simply very strong, being the cornerstone of an entire character, so it doesn't make sense why something that could save your skin in so many scenarios gets thrown down a quality grade.
Vanishing Twin (Q2 -> Q1) - To me, Vanishing Twin is a sort of "The rich get richer" item, where you take it to make an already good run even better. Having a risk factor while also having a chance to get a huge reward makes Q2, the absolute midpoint in quality, make sense for it.
Sacrificial Altar (Q2 -> Q1) - Jesus Christ man, Sacrificial Altar is one of the better devil items in the game, giving you quite a few devil items in exchange for your familiars, and with the average quality of familiars compared to the devil item pool, trading a Brother Bobby and a Demon Baby for a The Pact and an Abaddon feels like a trade worthy of at least more than Q1.
Monstrance (Q2 -> Q1) - Given how large the area of effect is for Monstrance, it can be treated simply as free damage most of the time, so it's baffling why it got dropped down to Q1.
Red Candle (Q2 -> Q1) - A fire, on command, that recharges every 4 seconds, that does a hefty amount of damage to anything it touches, down to Quality 1. Even though it takes an active item slot, it still can be a run winner all by itself. Even the passive version of it, Bird's Eye, is Quality 3, despite being less consistent (Though I agree Bird's Eye should be Q3, and Red Candle Q2)
Evil Charm (Q2 -> Q1) - The +2 Luck Up is already decently deserving of Q2 in my eyes, and the extra status effect immunity is just the cherry on top. The buff it got in Repentance+ makes it on the high end of Q2 for me.
Pointy Rib (Q2 -> Q1) - For what is considered a speedrunner item that can decimate a large majority of the enemies in the game, that does up to 2x damage while running forward, Q1 seems a tad reductive. Even without paying too much attention to it, it still increases a run's potential damage more than some other Q2s.
Head of Krampus (Q2 -> Q1) - While being the worse of the two Krampus drops, it still is a blast of 4 brimstone beams in all of the cardinal directions that deals with most rooms in the entire game, and an item that chunks off a huge portion of enemy health.
Spear of Destiny (Q2 -> Q1) - Same deal as Pointy Rib, though it does 2x damage no matter your movement, while having a shorter range. Free damage is free damage.
Alabaster Box (Q2 -> Q1) - Literally 2 Angel Room items at the cost of 6 soul hearts, and 3 of those soul hearts get refunded. A very powerful item considering the pool it pulls from. Why must these Quality changes make no sense.
Placebo (Q2 -> Q1) - With the Quality 2 pool of items holding a large amount of situational, but very useful items, Placebo seems to me like one of the most fitting of that description. Getting a Tears Up pill on the run and then finding it later for you to placebo, a 48 Hour Energy pill, a Vurp! pill, a Luck Up pill, and so much more could be absolutely amazing for Placebo, not to mention the synergy it gets with Lucky Foot and PHD making all pills good, and PHD revealing all pill effects.
Lost Soul (Q2 -> Q1) - Grabbing Lost Soul after clearing out the floor can guarantee a heart container, 3 soul hearts, or even an Angel Room item. The pure potential of Lost Soul, while hard to realize, makes it a perfect Q2 in my eyes.
Blue Map (Q2 -> Q1) - Blue Map is literally one of the best QoL items in the entire game, preventing you from wasting your bombs, and letting you never miss an opportunity to find Secret Room items. Incredibly powerful, incredibly arbitrary quality nerf.
Ball of Bandages + Cube of Meat (Q2 -> Q1) - With stacks of both items contributing to what could turn out to be a monster of a familiar while also being decent orbitals in their own right, they should, at the very least, be higher up than the orbitals that were lowered down to Q1. You're telling me that Big Fan doesn't do the exact same thing as these items?
Little Gish (Q2 -> Q1) - Free slowdowns on any enemies that Little Gish hits is powerful in its own right, and, while not being as strong as any Q3 of course, it still deserves to stay in the middle of the pack in terms of Item Quality.
Cambion Conception (Q2 -> Q1) - With how easy it is to take self-damage while also getting a reward from it, adding an extra reward on top of your sac room plays that could turn out to be some of the best items in the game, it's strange that it now shares a spot with Farting Baby.
Converter (Q2 -> Q1) - Again, "the niche items that could be incredibly powerful in the right situations" theme of Q2 strikes again, with Converter allowing for safer Devil Room items and safer later floors in general, it's strange it gets demoted as well.
D8 (Q2 -> Q1) - With the D8 possibly being an on-command 2x stats multiplier, it could save many a bad run. Even if you get the worst roll known to man and go to half of your actual stats, you only need to bear 4 more rooms until you can roll yourself into a better roll, and when you get the stats you want, you can simply stop using D8. It's only a matter of time while you have this item that you get monster stats.
Big Fan (Q2 > Q1) - Same as Slipped Rib.
Book of Sin (Q2 -> Q1) - Bookworm transformation and free pickups for the rest of the game seems rather powerful. It guarantees that you have at least a few pickups, allowing you access to item rooms, secret rooms, shops, chests, planetariums, and so much more.
(Rest in replies)
You just saved me a lot of typing. Honestly, a lot of the downgrades feel less like "this item isn't very useful" and more "the playtesters didn't realize/don't care what you can do with this" (especially with items like Strawman and Esau Jr.).
@@agnacoreCouldn't said it any better
Little Chubby (Q2 -> Q1) - Simply a strong projectile familiar that I will not stand for being lowered to the likes of Angry goddamn Fly.
Mars (Q2 -> Q0) - Quality Zero holds the worst items in the game, items that help you in no conceivable way, or actively detriment you. Putting a Planetarium item, that gives you free access to Curse Rooms, or any pickup blocked off by spikes, in with fucking Abel and Plan C, feels insulting. At absolute most, make it Q1.
Guillotine (Q2 -> Q0) - Same argument as Mars. A hefty tears and damage up that also gives you a strong offensive and defensive orbital for the cost of a less clear hitbox and wonky firing angle feels like the perfect candidate for a Q2 item. Practically any stats up will be better than the vast majority of Q0 items.
Will edit this later with the rest of my thoughts, but for now, my hands hurt.
@@agnacore Absolutely true
Holy heck bro, I had also made my own list of lowered items and now just seeing yours releives me that I'm not the only person here that makes super long lists of unfair item placements. Though I usually compared them to other items higher than their qualities like Book of sin(quality 1) and Mystery sack(quality 2). What they probably did was to put items lower just because "they are objectively worse in stats" like cupid's arrow and sagitarrius being on different tiers just because of a speed up or screw and bar of soap being lower than sad onion because there is a slim difference in tears.
Sacrififcial Alter being quality one now is NUTS for one of the best devil deal items
I would argue that it is not that strong BUT q1 was unfair
@jarede.ekcaamal6006 I was fine with q.2 tbh! It was perfect for what it did & q.1 is WAY too low
Is Q1 really that unfair considering it's an active iten that requires something extra in order to function?
It's a devil deal so there's a price up front plus the need for familiars. No doubt it's very strong when you can use it, but that's an *if*
Like, if it was Q2 it would make sense as well. But Q1 doesn't feel so wild to me.
@SomersBugtopia Eh, I guess not really considering its angel equiv (alabastor's box) is q.1
Fans demand, many people don't want to use because they preffer to keep they familiar, personaly I don't even like it when I find it in curse room, because I know that I will lose 2 first familiars I get. Once I used it on 3 spiders because I found OP baby.
Rock Bottom should've stayed q3 tbh
Also Guillotine q0 is crazy, I know it isn't great but it isn't THAT bad lol. q1 would've been fine imo
Cat Eared YTubers & LazyMatts once again ruining everything for the Little Man...
To be completely fair. Accidentally grabbing Guillotine is an instant run killer since it visually destroys the run for me. But I understand that other people are still able to use it effectively.
Rock bottom being Q4 is good, there's way too many cards and items that change stats only to be balanced by them being temporary
Yeah, 'Guillotine' Is bad but it still can be used to a degree without breaking the run or be useless so q0 was an overkill for the item
@@Da_ComputerMonster But Lazy Mattman likes Guillotine, and most bad/controversial items in the game. He's the most "Sure I'll pick up my reflection with ipecac and cursed eye for the fun of it" RUclipsr I know.
I don't want to sound like I am baselessly defending him, but get your facts straight next time.
Sacred orb suddenly feels less exciting to get
Why am i disagreeing so much and and agreeing just as much in the same time
Can't get a single bomb item with it now? Literally not worth even picking up now
finally d100 got put in its rightful place
i don't understand that, it's basically another d6, which is q4
@@2stral How is it another d6? It's way closer to d4 in function
@@2stral the problem is that is a D4 so you reroll all your held items everytime and is a D8 so it rerolls your multipliers (which you normally take, use it until you get a good damage multiplier, and never use it again). it combines dice that you wanna use every time with dice you rarely use more than once or twice.
My boy was done dirty, change my mind
D Infinity >>>> D100
I feel it's worth noting that item quality comes into play extremely rarely. If you don't play Tainted Lost or Tainted Apollyon, it'll only come up if you find Sacred Orb. Due to the way item quality works with these characters, you're actually MORE likely to find higher quality items on average since there's zero mechanics that favor the lower qualities. Item *weight* is the statistic that actually matters.
The 3 to 2 changes are the worst. So many of them should be a hate crime to become only 2
I feel like Rock Bottom should get an addition to it to make it feel like its quality 4.
+ Any stat that is lower than their default value will be raised back to their default values upon picking the item up.
THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A DECENT CHANGE.
Like I’m thinking if Eves mascara, a much more consistently run winning item should still be quality three, then rock bottom probably should have something to make it semi consistently perform to at least a quality three level.
Right now Rock bottom doesn’t do anything on its own, on pickup it quite literally does nothing, but it’s power comes from the potential for one of the MANY items that pump one of your stats to an extreme to show up following the pickup. It CAN be fantastic but most often it doesn’t do much and as it is right now, I don’t think it meets the criteria for a quality 4.
A change like what you suggested would definitely make it at least pretty consistent most of the time while still including the run breaking potential that makes it quality three in the first place.
Maybe do it so there is no hidden stats and even if you get -1 tears and then you get +1 tears it does increase it instead of no stat upgrade
So 'Soy milk' (and by definition 'Almond milk') WILL be overpowered for this... Got it
I'd say give an initial +5 dmg that technically fades away after 2 seconds but the stats is kept anyway because of rock bottom
Make it maximum polarizing: set all stats back to default, but all future stat decreases are fully obliterated, instead of just being hidden and ignored.
(or be more chill and just set all stats to halfway between their current value and default instead.)
Vanishing Twin went from 2 to 1???
??????
?????????????
"Totally not deserved" when showing Rock Bottom. BASED. Finally someone that shares my opinion on Rock bottom being kinda meh most runs. It is good but when I hear people say it is an insta win item I go feral
Lost soul getting a q2 ->q1 literally makes it so T lost can't find it
I want my lil bro back :'(
:( actually tragic
Void getting a quality nerf even PRE update is rediculous.
I don't understand the buff either like void was a little worse alternative to d6 and now it's just broken as you can void literally evry item
Like every tboi RUclipsr ever wanted 😅
THE INTRUDER TO Q2??? THIS IS ACTUALLY CRAZY
so many good q2s got pushed down...divine intervention, sac altar, eraser, monstance, akeldama, VADE RETRO?? these items are genuinely really good, just because theyre not gamebreaking doesnt mean theyre not q2 atleast wtf
red candle, alabaster and lost soul dont deserve this either
AND CAMBION CONCEPTION??? who did this???? all the map items getting pushed down as well for NO reason
LMFAOO guilottine getting q0 is straight up skill issue. i fuckin hate that item and even i can admit that
are these player testers sinvicta fans?
Probably
tbf almost all of the new q0 items are straight ass.
Edmund had rock bottom when making these patch notes
The quality changes are crazy they should definitely work on them (also rock bottom dosen't deserve q4).
And why doesn't rock bottom deserve it? Cards are common and getting stats for them to last you is good.
@art-cs6us Cuz every q4 item makes it so that u have a guaranteed win with it (unless its an active q4 or its a skill issue) but with rock bottom u have to use ur brain and min max it to make it a worthwhile item.Rock bottom is def my top 5 fav item im jus saying it dosen't need q4 its good as a q3.
@@malikfaiz6607 if mantle is q4 then why can you still die as the lost lmao. Also ipecac + dr fetus can destroy you. Pyromaniac also requires having lots of bombs and enough red hp to benefit from it. Godhead is decent, but it being flat damage instead of % based makes it worse on low tear rate runs. No quality 4 is game winning completely by itself (except ARGUBLY epic fetus/knife/maybe cac but its painful without tear upgrades), you want other items to supplement them. And rock bottom is essentially the perfect supplementary item to a bunch of equations. You do not need to min max with rock bottom, you can just pop a card or tenporary stat book, and still do good enough. Makes it so you don't have to get hit to retain bloody lust/gust, or not lose out on crown/purity, and mitigates risk of certain items.
@@malikfaiz6607 Not every quality 4 guarantees a won run, there are quality 4 items that have significant downsides to them, rock bottom is the definition of not having a downside; If you use even like two cards it can give you more stats than a lot of strong q4s. You don't have to "min max" to make it worthwhile, using a single strength card gives you a (semi) perma Magic Mush
Because skill issue
d100 to quality 1 is crazy, if you ever just find it you roll a few times until a good stat line, I have NEVER had a bad run with it, getting good value from it is an inevitability and the only times you ignore it is when you're already op
i feel like you get strong results out of a singular d100 roll more often than not
These play testers are on something bro
As you said, they'll no doubt readjust the quality of the buffed items as the beta goes along. Still though, some of the placements as is are quite amusing.
Guillotine at 0 is crazy im always happy to find it even with the odd tears
you stand alone wih this claim, my friend.
Yeah, it's not a good item, but a tear delay down shouldn't be at 0
Its a decent damage up but not worth the confusion of your head rotating all the time
Also the hit box bothers me lmao
True people seriously underestime guillotine, the stats are really good and I never would pass up on it, should've stayed quality 2
@@RakastanPorkkanakakkua skill issue
CRACK THE SKY QUALITY ONE?!? It can oneshot most bosses
genesis going down when it can make a run so much better is insane; charm of the vampire, halo and rock bottom going up are undeserved
Rock bottom qual 4 is probably just doing it so funny dance plays for it
@@jason0803 Life if the Specialist Mod was NEVER made;
*We would be on Mars right now*
@@jason0803 People not knowing you can just make Specialist play for *literally any item you want by not having it on default settings*
I have it play for fuckin Tech 2 and Smelter because I love those items, that doesn't mean I think they deserve Q4 lmfao
@ Yeah I don’t use the mod, I only know about it because Matt man uses it
It baffles me that they made some more items not spawn in greed mode and they kept the D20 in there AGAIN
Im not complaining
@@stary_kartofel2137 i think some people would be frothing at the mouth if they removed the D20 from greed mode
@@rock9154Honestly, it’s how I win most of my Greed runs with the tough characters like Tainted Lost. Doing that legitimately sounds like hell!
2:10 why Suplex? Its very good item
Knowing Edmund, he can change the quality values just to troll the fans, and then bring everything back. Otherwise, I don't know how to explain that Lil portal and Mars are q0 now. Oh, and rock bottom💀
Dance when funny rock.
Imagine skipping tons of items to get a planetarium and proceeding to get a quality 0 item
Finally some love for Lachryphagy! I always felt like it deserved Q3 for sure, one of my personal favourite items in the game, so satisfying with the right setup
Why is Ocalor rift now a quality 2. Like its literally one of the most op luck base tear effects in the game. Right next to Holy Shot
Can fling enemies into you, and make it hard to dodge certain bullet patterns that get messed up by the rifts
If there's too many of them it can get you hit I guess
every time i have it it usually makes the enemy tears not even move from the spot they are fired it deserves quality 3 for just costing 1 heart at the devil deal
@@art-cs6us Yeah they’re definitely downsides but I think being able to consistently trivialise at least half of some of the hardest bosses in the games attacks at low luck still makes up for taking maybe 2 hearts of damage that you wouldn’t have over the course of a whole run.
Most of the time the hardest obstacles in the game are the final bosses, and even good players can just simply not have enough time and damage to preserve like 8 hearts through the mega satan fight or Delirium or something. However having even one or two Ocular rift procs throughout one of those fights might even double the amount of time you can safely attack.
procs of Ocular rift aren’t just additional attacks, they’re invaluable breaks that allow the player to either survive a little longer or even just trivialise the hardest fights in the whole game if their luck or tears stats are high enough.
And something like that I think is completely deserving of quality three.
it breaks boss patterns and creates unavoidable damage.
cambion conception at q1 is absolutely criminal bro
new Lil' Portal being Q0 is nuts. At worst it lets you smuggle multiple trinkets and/or cards through multiple floors. At best you get Moving Box inside and can just dump items in there for reroll rigging.
Rock Bottom also shouldn't by Q4, it needs support to rig the game.
It was said in the video that the quality given was for before the items got buffed, so they are probably gonna change it later since this is still in beta
So does glitched crown and sacred orb. I dont see why rock bottom shouldnt be q4 when we have those items
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy with Rock Bottom, you still need to find the other items at the right time to break the game. With Glitched Crown and Sacred Orb, you _will_ find those other items, they make it happen.
@@Sugarman96 You just need to find two ways of temporarily increasing your stats with rock bottom, it aint that hard to get a broken run going with it. You can still only get dogshit items with sacred orb and crown
2:52 LITTLE CHUBBY WHYYYYYY. HE WAS ACTUALLY BROKEN
0:59 Or we just get Nicalis’d and have an afterbirth+ type situation… lets not lose hope though
I really dont get rock-bottom getting quality 4. Heck, even quality 2 would be a stretch (fight me). The item is not good on its own, depends on you getting it early and then finding specific items (in order preferably) so you can feel any benefit.
I think any strength rock-bottom would have comes from easy access to build around it early, but quality 4 is basically a nail in the coffin.
Commenters gotta remember that item quality is a mostly invisible stat that only affects 3 characters and 3 items
3 characters now ;D
@ oh right abyss buff means a tainted Apollyon buff lol
(Though people discussing item qualities does get you more engagement on this video so hmmm)
i know but it still mentally bothers me cuz it's effectively the official tier list for the game. i still wanna argue whether rock bottom is a q4 or not because it's fun to do
It is kinda funny seeing Lil Portal taken to Q0 in the same update that it probably becomes the most busted item in the game for rigging.
guillotine shouldn't be quality 0
It's actually goated
It is not. It is one of the worst items in the game. It deserves it place in the trash heap
@@JohnSmith-kt3yyi'm sorry to inform you but you just have a massive skill issue, learn to use tears better
If it were up to me, it’d be a q3, it’s a cap breaking tears up, a nice damage up, and a really good orbital.
@@invisible-car-man So I guess you spam the everloving shit out of wavy cap 24/7 whenever you get it? It gives you an amazing tears up.
Also, the shooting is not the issue with it, is that it misaligns you hitbox from your head. Had it still shown your head on your body and a normal orbital flew around you and shot your tears it would be pretty good.
@@Dosplo Solid q0 actually. One of the worst items in the game but it has potential to not be utter dogshit
Honestly with that universal room between multiple floors, Under the right circumstances lil' portal could easily be a quality 4.
Tainted lost isn't gonna roll damocles anymore!!!!!
The isaac youtuber glazing is so real this patch
Nevermind how half these changes were made under a "loud obnoxious youtubers always/never use this item so it must be amazing/bad!!" scope (yes I'm aware these quality changes were made before the item buffs so I'm not questioning why lil portal is Q0 now despite probably at least being Q3-4)
But it also makes T.losts already confusing quality reroll mechanic make even less sense
We're on fire with this new update 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I really wish they would make Krampus head give you Leviathan. The fact that u either get coal or NOTHING if you already have a spacebar item really irks me
it's pretty underrated honestly. if you get it early it's a good nuke to just drop when you're getting swarmed, or fighting one big enemy like a boss.
@idlegameplayer3756 yeah it is really strong. But in most runs I wouldn't give up utility for raw damage if I already got a decent item. Especially since a lot of use items can be core to your gameplan
@@yeahmemia having no / a bad active item pretty late into a run is more common than you think. though with angel room being better than devil deals it gets even less of a chance to shine
@@idlegameplayer3756 not in my experience. But still the point is not that head of krampus is bad, but that it feels bad when you don't get coal and already have a use item u don't want to lose. If it gave u leviathan it'd at least stop feeli g like a complete cheapout
Yeah, I never understood why soap was q3
Honestly I thought it made sense considering it's in the Boss item pool, basically the tears ups and damage ups being Q3 relative to the other items in their pool
I feel like tear drops would make more sense as quality 2 since it does kinda of mess with the tear delay just a tiny bit until you get more tears
They put my boi Bob's Brain in the fucking 0 quality!!!
I demand justice!!!
Rock bottom DID NOT deserve quality 4
It always felt like Deep Pockets or Jacob's Ladder to me, the concept is fun but there are rarely any runs when you find it early and actually get profit out of it
yeah rock bottom is either you get one of the items that synergizes with it and now you have OP god run or you don’t and it does almost nothing all run
q4 items should practically win runs on their own imo
@@n2k970 I think this is mostly the correct way to think of Q4 items, though with the defensive ones it's a bit tougher.
It's not rare
Just get strength card and you perma magic mush
@@n2k970I can think of several q4s that I think are worse than rock bottom at specifically that. Rock does take luck but the payoff for using it correctly is too insane for q3. And most of the time rock does pay off, I’d say like 80%.
@@bealet9357 except perma magic mush isn't gamebreaking either
in what world does champion conception and vanishing twin deserve to be q1, if you now how to play those are just free items (also before someone tells me that vanishing twin is useless past womb so is there is options as well as more options and those are q3) .
also q0 mars is insane (just more reasons to not pick sacred orb)
the amount of rigs you can do with rock bottom makes it a quality 4
Just because it has rig potential doesn’t make it top quality, or else people wouldn’t take the piss out of missingno
@@june9914 Nah, rock bottom is incredible.
lil' portal gonna get the greatest glow up in terms of quality. Shot to 0, but after the beta skyrocket to 4
skeleton key became q2 but pyro is still q3
Probably because bombs can be used to kill, unless you got the sharp key item
Bombs are good and do good damage even more w synergies, skeleton key is good only for some certain scenarios
I actually agree with this one more, keys are much less useful than bombs after the Mom fight, I think this change is reasonable
Also rock bottom is the best item in the game. Definitely deserved. My friend and I almost crashed the game yesterday because of it so...
Looks like testers had a bit of a skill issue
Almost all of these changes make no sense and feel incredibly biased tbh. Like dark arts in t1? That item trivialises half the rooms and bosses in the game, not even mentioning all other uses i-frames on command have. And thats only one example, there are a lot of changes like this here
Also quality 4 for an item that does literally nothing without synergies is crazy
Rock bottom is insanely good
BUT The item by itself doesn't do much, i agree w/ u it doesn't deserve Q4
Glitched crown and sacred ord dont do anything by themselves either, but they are somehow snug in q4. Id take rock bottom over sacred orb any day
@JohnSmith-kt3yy what The hell are You talking about
Glitch crown is literally 5 ítems un one pedestal, and sacred orb makes The ítems better Quality, it's a huge thing that saves almost every run no matter how Bad your run was, but rock bottom is practically useless if You had no way to gain stats
@@marygamer3058 You always have ways to increase your stats with rock bottom.
Sacred orb and glitched crown require other items too do anything, and even then theres only a chance they will make any significant difference.
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy, ummm. tell me how to break a game with 🪨. haha you can't. cause there are literally 2-3 possible ways. with glitched crown you can pick whatever item you wants.
You always have ways of increasing your stats? How? Rock bottom is an item that requires very specific item/card combos to really shine whereas glitched crown and sacred orb consistently have a VERY noticeable effect throughout the run.
Maybe you wanna argue that since you can use a strength card to mimic magic mush it's deserving of Q4, sure. I'd still say that magic mush is better in that case because you don't make to make your stats back to increase them again and you also get a full heal to work with. Rock bottom is in a very rare pool and NEEDS you to get it early to really get it to work, that's what stunts it the most.
tldr; rock bottom doesn't consistently impact runs like other Q4 items do, it's way more high rolley.
What do you think of adding a quality 5 tier? I think it would make the placement of some items less arguable
rock bottom deserves quality 4, it’s such a good item even if you don’t have a run that can abuse it’s strength.
It doesn't it's a item that doesn't do anything on it's own it relies on other items just to work unlike crickets or sacred heart imo
@@cobalt1027 Cracked crown and sacred orb also requires other items to do anything at all. I dont see your point at all.
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy Sacred Orb literally prevent low quality items from spawning so you have better items, what does rock bottom do if your run is mid? Nothing. Rig potential doesn't mean it should get Q4, there's lot of times where Rock bottom does little to nothing, just like Chaos who is a Q3, it should have stayed the same.
@@_riliane_ Lots of times meaning one out of 40, 50 rock bottom runs? Good stats up cards are certainly not that much of a rarity
@@JohnSmith-kt3yy neither do sacred orb gets rid of bad items rock bottom relies on other amazing items just to be good
totally deserved, I did ONE run after the patch went live... ended up with 400 damage, 5 tier rate, and I got Rock Bottom in Sheol
20 likes and ill buy repentance on my computer (already have it on switch but I wunna play with my friends)
Bro just buy it ill play with you
Dark arts being quality one is funny af
I thot that rock botton wasnt q4 because the item by itself didnt do anything and all the quality 4 itens do something unique or are realy powerfull, but I think it deserves the quality 4 because it do something unique
Really shows just how power crept the game has gotten at this point
Growing up is realising that Rock Bottom was perfectly fine as a Q2/Q3 item.
It's like Dr. Fetus.
Or Epic Fetus.
Or Brimstone.
Or Mom's Knife-
You get the idea.
It's good, but not that GOOD. It's how you USE it.
I disagree. Rock bottom is a solid q4 item
Esau Jr. being tier 1 is beyond me, that item is awesome.
Ok, who what where those testers smoking? so many alright items are now q0, lmao....
also yeah, rock bottom should stay q3, considering the thing does nothing on it's own
Quick reminder for everyone that the Repentance+ team is not the same one that worked on Repentance (that being primarily Edmund and the Antibirth team) and that explains why these changes seem to make no sense to anyone who's been following development during the Rep era.
No, I agree with you about rock bottom. It's not broken by itself and even then it has it's limitations. It's nigh useless later in the run and really only certain items can really break it. If any Q3 item should be upgraded to Q4, I'd vote for Spoon Bender. Homing shots are insanely useful.
spoon bender being in the same tier as "spoon bender but better twice (godhead/sacred heart)" doesn't seem right either imo, q3 is fine where it is now
Homing shots don't increase DPS output, their Q3 is well-deserved.
I think that Jacob's ladder (muh beloved) or Spirit Sword can look in line with the q4 items:
• dramatically increases dps
•badass sprite
•tear gain a unique effect or are outright replaced
•insane gamebreaking synergies
However, i am happy they are not q4. In my mind, q3 = "unapologetically busted if you know what you're doing", q4 = "unapologetically busted UNCONDITIONALLY and SOLO".
@@SU76M Neither does Holy Mantle and look where that is
@@ottoweekend5691 holy mantle drastically increases your defenses
It makes no sense to have Spoon bender be a q4. Aiming better is a much easier task than avoiding damage in end game rooms. In a vacuum even piercing > homing
Dude if they consider rock bottom quality 4 they need to create a quality 5 and place 20/20 in there because Rock bottom quality 4 makes no sence
Oh great, so now rock bottom not only is less common, but decreases my odds of more quality 4 items? hell naw
That's not how that work , every Item have there own change Spawn , that's why satanic bible is so common and why epic fetus is so rare , this is only number inidicator for how powerfull Item is - not chance of finding Item
Quality =/= Rarity. Rock bottom is as common as before
@@AkadTheFox yeah
@@Noet3 My bad, havent played for a bit, but still pissed because quality 4 chance DOES decrease every time you see a quality 4
@@javierascanio4309as far as I am aware, Q4 items don’t reduce the rate of seeing other Q4s ever since “Special Items” were removed
Wait! Lil Portal being almost a moving box now went from 1 to 0? Dafuq?
And yeah, I agree with Rock Bottom being Q4 isn't deserved. Q3 is the tier for it. Had a Eden run with RB start and almost got no stats up through the entire run, but managed to beat lamb somehow. It doesn't nothing by himself but is a awesome *situational* item.
I still can’t believe their are people really one the “rock is not q4” train. If I were making a tier list in Isaac for all the items the very top tier would be death certificate worthy. Reserved exclusively for items that will be considered when taking death certificate. The number of items in that tier is very small and yet rock would be in it imo. If any item is even in the conversation when you get death certificate then it’s q4.
Dev team tried to cook with qualities...
Who tf let them cook!?