@@joeb588 his defense isn’t terrible but I do think the advanced stats don’t provide entire picture either. You gotta factor in some degree of eye test, I mean we are all humans. It’s how we perceive “reality.” He gets his hands in passing lanes really well, but he has trouble getting back in transition which adv. stats don’t much weight on. Nuggets as a team have allowed highest opp. FG % within 5 feet of basket, towards bottom of league in boxouts, third most points against in paint, and give up third most PPP in transition in the league. You can pick and choose stats all day which make it more difficult to use solely adv stats for arguments. He’s an awesome player but it is fair to talk about his defense without being labeled a “hater”
@@joeb588it is, I e made 💰 taking his opposing centers overs in a sgp of points & rebs - sabonis lit him up Lgame, now 2b fair he dies expend ALOT of energy on D bcuz the roster has been depleted over the years
NBA pod request: please bring on the Thinking Basketball guys. They'll actually have great analysis and won't say dumb things like "Jokic has terrible defense" with no context or analytics to support the claim.
@@SIChrisMannix read the article. No mention of how Jokic calls out the opposing teams plays, communicates on defense, is always in the right position, gets rebounds, and doesn’t foul leading to easy FTs. Of course he’s not an athletic defender - but there’s more to defense. Also, when he’s your team’s entire offense - it’s on the GM and Coach to put a defensive team around him.
I really don't think that their thing fits with the Ringer. Kind of like mixing oil with water. The Ringer comes from the Sports Radio Lineage. Thinking Basketball comes from the Internet Forum Lineage. Also, they will say dumb things too. They'll just dress it up in enough jargon and cherry-picked stats to trick people.
Most of Bill's guests have really dropped off hard lately, even KOC, Zach lowe, and others, the only ones I really enjoy is Michael Lombardi for football and Kirk Goldsberry for bball
Because he plays the passing lanes good, they mentioned that, but objectively he’s not a rim protector and he can’t switch, so yes he’s a bad defensive center
"Jokic's defense is terrible"? I'm sorry, I think you mean "your 'analysis' is terrible." It's true, Jokic is down from the last three years... but for three years he was first in defensive box plus/minus and top ten in defensive win shares. (Two times, he was first in DBPM and second in DWS.) Those are All Defensive, DPOY type numbers. He's not there this year, which combined with giving up KCP for nothing and Gordon being injured is why the Nuggets' defense is ghastly instead of weak. Nonetheless, Jokic himself remains solidly a plus, and in fact, he's still leading the Nuggets in both categories for the seventh year in a row. Want to whinge about advanced stats even though they're better than the box score at both predicting outcomes and matching up with the precious eye test? In the box score, Jokic is seventh in the NBA in steals. Not seventh among centers (he's first, obvs), not seventh among frontcourt players, seventh *overall*. Jokic almost wholly responsible for organizing the Nuggets on defense, performing the same herding cats role Draymond Green has for Golden State. And obviously to say he's bad at "defense" you have to just dismiss defensive rebounding entirely. If you can't see what Jokic does on the defensive end, that's you failing to understand the game, not him failing to elevate the team on both ends.
@@jc0257 For the sake of argument, let's say this were true. Why do YOU think Jokic shows up year after year near the top of lists that are otherwise populated exclusively by players who are considered great defenders? If this were a fluky thing, you could say it's low sample size and relatively noisy stats. But this has been consistent for half a decade, and Jokic plays a ton of games every year so the sample size is one of the largest in the NBA. All of these metrics consider him not just a good defender but a great one. If Jokic scored really well in one metric but was bad in the others, you could say it was some odd flaw in that metric. But he's been excellent defensively by every publicly available metric I can find. If Defensive Box Plus/Minus, Defensive Win Shares, and Defensive Rating were throwing up odd results left and right, then you could say they're just bad stats. But everyone else on these lists is somebody who'd immediately leap to your mind as a great defender. Either someone rightly lauded as a two-way superstar (Giannis, AD, Jason Tatum) or someone who reaches star level because of their defense (Rudy Gobert, Evan Mobley, Bam Adebayo, Draymond Green) or a high-level defensive role player (Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Brook Lopez). Is there literally no point at which the evidence could become so overwhelming that you'd say "Maybe this dude who is famous for having one of the highest basketball IQs ever knows more about what he's doing than I do?" I think you can make an argument that Jokic shouldn't be in the DPOY conversation most years because the *way* he plays defense is more like a guard than a traditional center, and that limits the degree to which he can raise a team's defensive floor. I don't understand how any serious person can make a coherent argument that he's not at worst a *good* defender, though.
@@MoogleEmpMog It's a double standard. People don't think a center is a good defender unless he is a traditional shot blocker. But then they also call Rudy Gobert overrated. And when Dwight was the best center in Basketball, they griped that he didn't have a post game like Shaq. All to serve the interests of their guy, whether it's Lebron or Embiid.
Jokic pick and roll defence is awesome, he is so good at reading the ball handler. Jokic is not good at defending the rim but the fact he is not chasing blocks helps his defensive rebounding positioning.
@@uberneanderthal Not really. He is pretty bad at defense. just because you get some steals for playing 40 minutes a night doesnt mean u are a good defender
@@ksm4648 jokic is limited physically on defense but he is a smart defender. he calls out plays from the opposing team. he gets steals because he reads the floor very well
@ theres a ton of things defensively that statistics dont cover for, one is getting back on defense which he struggles mightly with. and yes a guaranteed championship vs an 8th seed without an offensive center isnt really a good case for you.
Butler for Murray actually sounds better than Butler-MPJ, if Jamal's contract wasn't extended. Butler plays bigger than his size but they lose some flexibility with their line-ups and he doesn't improve their three-point shooting. He makes sense as an additional shot creator during crunch time but IMHO they would be better off trading away some of their younger guys for 3-and-D veterans or shop for overseas or G-League guys to improve at the fringes. Butler to Houston looks to be a good fit but it depends on what Houston wants to do and which veteran to move out of - Brooks or VanVleet. It would also depend on what kind of contract Jimmy would agree to post-trade.
@@ilovekaiyko There's that too. I still think Murray can improve, and may do better under the Pat Riley conditioning school, but as he is right now, he is not what Miami needs.
The murray extension was strange they extended him while he still wasnt playing well.. As for embiid he might get back to be ok maybe its next year wouldnt write it off yet and everyone does the extension embiid when healthy is great can he then ok..
@ he’s in position all the time. Has to be the guy to get every one set. Is 7th overall in steals, best defensive rebounder in the game every advanced metric says he is an all time defender and the eye test says he is a very positive team defender. Again idk what you and this mannix dude are watchin
The game is way more fast paced. He’s a blow by every time in transition. His defense is actually very average. It’s easy to see he’s slow and can’t jump. And he should get rebounds because he’s bigger than everyone else.
Heat fan here. You can have Herro. He doesnt pass. He always wants thr last shot. He stunk vs Detroit snd had no business taking the last shot. Jimmy was in fire. I wish the Heat would trade Herro
Bingo. Great 3pt shooter, god defender, knows how to be 3-4th option. Of course you lose the rebounding of Mike and the size of Frontline isn't as big.
Jimmy Butler doesn’t really raise the floor for many contenders considering his salary, him wanting an extension, and the assets required to get him, in addition to the fact he’s not a reliable volume scorer when needed and he’s injury prone
Horrible take by mannix on MPJ. Also Jimmy Butler to Houston makes no sense. Bill usually wears a great historian hat but neither of these guys know much at all about actually playing ball or assembling talent that can win together.
@@SIChrisMannix I like his game too but it’s really hard to overstate how much the Joker allows him to operate on offense. Such a gravitational force for the defense. A guy like MPJ would have a 20% lower net rating on a mediocre team.
@@vegasbound213 Jimmy to Houston makes perfect sense. They need a go to clutch scorer if they want to win right now and Jimmy also can play consistent great defense, which is needed in Ime’s system.
@@Lampsadviceyou may be right but he’s not interested in living there. Rockets have youth, athleticism, etc. I just think it’s a stretch to commit all that money to JB at this age. If he wants a ring now Houston makes no sense.
Jaime Jaquez ? 😂 Micheal Porter Jr ?? Bruh, we all knew Jimmy was gone during Pat Riley's end of season rant Tyler Herro - empty stats on a crap team. He's a B or C player at best
Boston fan, "do you think the Celtics would trade a flash in the pan 6th man that will undoubtedly fizzle out in 1-3 seasons for a 2 time mvp, dopy and finals mvp player?". "The fact that we're even asking the question"...prooves how dumb that comment was.
I would love if the Nuggets found away to avoid shipping MPJ, especially when most of the trades are just not a good 1 for 1 swap in my opinion. But lets say they do MPJ & Nnaji for Cam and Finney-Smith. MPJ for Cam is close enough, but Nnaji for Finney-Smith gives em another 3 & D wing with length that's a good upgrade. Dunno if either team would go for it.
The team that needs Jim Butler the most is a team that already have a for sure number 1 and number 2 option and Jimmy can be that number 3 guy that I think he naturally is. So a team like the Bucks.
Miami is the team that needs Jimmy the most; they should've given him the extension. They STILL should. No reasonable trade Miami could make is gonna turn the Heat into Celtic beaters.
All this praise for what Butler brings is fine, but will he bring it? Jimmy plays hard when he wants to. And is Denver willing to pay Jimmy 50mm per year?
@@mookz34I love Jimmy, but he's going to be 36 before next season. He's been injury prone the past few years. I don't think he's suddenly going to get healthier at 36.
Butler just wants to win, and at least you know with him hes gonna give 110% ever second hes on the court come playoff time. i think hes just mastered the regular season coast to make sure hes good to go for the playoffs
I love it when Bill becomes like this, where I don't know if he's trolling, or is just a classic delusional fan like the rest of us 😂 Dude was 6/2/2 during the last playoffs, take it easy 😂
Dennis schroeder can be traded again in aggregate with other players 60 days from when his last trade date just became official. How do these guys not know the nba trade rules??
Not really sure I get why any one of these teams that have a solid youth movement who play hard and are frankly a few years away from really contending would want a 35 year old Jimmy Butler who will want an extension, it feels like this is just speculation for the sake of speculation.
The last years of a player like Butler ain't gonna be pretty for anyone. The only good scenario would be him in a young tanking team, so some of his character get into the youngsters. I don't want to see Kobe last years redux, thanks.
I see even the pros say this all the time. Brad beal isnt the same guy ect. He was puttting numbers up on a bad team. There are so many guys who can put huge numbers up on bad teams.
Id trade porter in a minute if I were denver. Idk if its just me, but every time I watch Denver, Porter sucks. Maybe its bad luck on my part when I watch, but he misses 5 in a row and cant defend at all when I do tune in. And I also don't have a masters in basketball, but it seems like every shot he is moving during his shot to one side. He cant ever seem to take a balanced, solid form shot. IDK. I don't think he is worth his contract at all. Id love Jimmy on the team or Cam Johnson.
It's his contract, for sure. I'd love to have Zach Lavine on my team, if his contract was half of what it is. MPJ is killing the Nuggets cap by not playing up to his contract. Same with Murray. Teams can't contend unless their players play up to their contracts.
@shorewall murray just seems out of shape man. He is moving slow, looks labored and low energy. The talent is still there and it shows, but its the consistently playing to that ceiling thats a problem. Mpj just jas never appealed to me. I think people see a 6'10 guy who can shoot and think oh thats worth 1/5 of our salary cap.... no dude it isnt. Nobody is going to be durant, stop. People do the exact same thing with height for centers. No man, most of the time 7'5 people are literal trees who cant even play basketball, theyre just tall. You wont get a Wemby every year. Sorry, rant over. I just want MPJ out
2022 is 2022. 2024 is a completely different team. And the entire league is different. Cannot stand when "pro analysts" pin their takes on the past. Which is not a predictor of the future. Most definitely that far of the past.
My only problem with butler going to Houston is who we have to give up and also we wouldn’t be a contender this year with him anyways. He’d make us tough to beat but we have no chance at beating the best with him
Lol. I was thinking that. They only real assests they have is Kuminga, Podz, and Wiggins and you'd be trading two of them for an almost 36, pending free agent. I don't think Moody has much value/garners much interest.
@@lukeremsberg5796 Butler's not a Top 10 player and, even if he was, what is your plan? To have the Warriors play 2-on-5 games? Who is left on the Warriors depth-wise?
@ in that situation: Steph, Schroder, Jimmy, Draymond, Looney (or TJD they’ve been switch starting centers). Off the bench: buddy, GP2, moody, Kyle Anderson, the other of the centers (that’s 10 deep), then Lindy Waters who’s literally been starting games and anyone else included in the trade / buyouts. If being the best player on multiple finals teams in the last 5 years isn’t top 10 (“if he ever was”) then I guess winning just doesn’t matter your rankings? Just look at his playoff stats, Kelly Oubre dove into his knees last year right before the playoffs but the year before that he put up better stats than Ant did in 2024 playoffs with much better 3pt shooting and is a better defense and people were talking about Ant as a top 5 player after last playoffs. Jimmy doesn’t take shots in the regular season, but has consistently outplayed every single star he’s playing in the post season without a single above average offensive player on his team for any of those playoffs runs
As a Rockets fan I don't want Butler he is too old and when they wanted him before he went to Miami he wouldn't give them the time of day when he was a free agent.
Bulls need to get Jimmy back. Dump Zach + another player for contract and 2 first rounders and get Jimmy. The team instantly has heart and leadership that's been lacking and will create a ruckus in the East. Jimmy can also help Coby unlearn the terrible selfish-iso habits he's picked up from Zach.
Your guideline is stick to the topic yet Mannix said he’s a bad defender EVEN though he’s averaging 14 boards, a block and steal a game. Come on, bring me in instead man, damn.
Pritchard has the 2nd most made 3pt shots in the league this year as a bench player. Teams are shifting their defense when he comes into the game so he doesn't get end-of-quarter shots off. Pritchard is averaging more RPG than both of them despite being 4-5" shorter than them. Both of those guys have slightly higher assists per game and slightly higher shooting percentages, but I don't know if any teams take them above Pritchard given the chance.
@pinbarbecue1100 bron and ad don't have long have long left. They need to either go for it now or rebuild. Jimmy isn't a great fit but he could be enough to make them a real contender
If there s a team that the Heat are not afraid of… it s Boston ! Also, the chance of KP, Horford and/or Holiday being injured is quite high. If the Celtics miss 2 out of these 3 players, the opportunity to beat is there for a few teams in the east
“Butler doesn’t fit the Heats timeline everyone is 27 or younger” so it makes sense to trade him to the Rockets whose timeline he fits even worse??😂 quit putting the rockets in with jimmy butler trade talks what a clown shoe
What timeline? 😂 if they got a young good player then Bam would be too old.. there is no time line to have a time line you need one of those all time great players with none on your roster what the f timeline are you talking about
@Joeshiesty286 That's not how he plays defense though. He plays defense by trying to swipe at the ball and swing down where most bigs play bigger. His defense has been better it's just not normal big man defense. He's like top five and steals per game That's what he does he gets in passing lanes. He's still a road cone at the rim no question
@@Joeshiesty286 Yeah, I guess he should foul out of games going for blocks when he is the team's only offense, and primary defensive rebounder. Fact is, he is so good on offense and Rebounding that his defense doesn't matter. I know you have trouble understanding that, but it is true. Same with Magic Johnson, who wasn't a good defender either. But they both score and facilitate the entire offense, so they bring so much to the team that griping about their defense is weak sauce.
KOC is baseline bad, just like Justin Verrier and half the guys at the Ringer. I can only stand Bill and House, Jalen and Verno, Woz and Rob, and sometimes Russillo.
I can't believe that dude has a job at Sports Illustrated. Absolutely no clue what he's talking about, had to be corrected multiple times by Bill. Embarrassing even having him on the pod. Please dont bring him back.
Bill is so dumb GSW can still put dennis in a salary trade why does this man get to run a podcast.. f it annoys me dont be nice call him out for not knowing his one job
Sit jokic with a phantom injury and tank for one season. Get one of those studs in the draft or use that as a trade chip. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but it could possibly give Jokic a mini Dynasty
Man every projected stood isn’t a stood. There’s no one player outside the top 10 would warrant a really valuable trade piece. Plus you still gotta match salaries
A generation brought up on quitting and tanking think that everyone has the same quitter mentality. All for some snot nosed high school kid who is usually a one trick pony? Delusional at best.
@@vlada Do you feel better about your miserable self for attacking people's character for understanding that there are only a couple ways to make a small market team better. Continue all the passive aggressive attacks on me for understanding that's just how teams not in LA or NY get better. The don't have the assets or money to make there team dramatically better so tell me how else they get better? Rather attack people come up with a solution. I'm just realistic. Tough guy
Jokic plays on a lengendary level right now. And this guy is shitting on him... 😂😂
Is there a bigger hater of Nikola Jokić than Chris Mannix?
Even Perkins has been mild on his takes recently.
What specifically did he say that was wrong or hateful?
@@HerbHerman-le5uxHe had the audacity to mention jokers bad defense....that bastard
@@HerbHerman-le5ux calling his defense terrible at this point is just dumb
@@joeb588 his defense isn’t terrible but I do think the advanced stats don’t provide entire picture either. You gotta factor in some degree of eye test, I mean we are all humans. It’s how we perceive “reality.” He gets his hands in passing lanes really well, but he has trouble getting back in transition which adv. stats don’t much weight on. Nuggets as a team have allowed highest opp. FG % within 5 feet of basket, towards bottom of league in boxouts, third most points against in paint, and give up third most PPP in transition in the league. You can pick and choose stats all day which make it more difficult to use solely adv stats for arguments. He’s an awesome player but it is fair to talk about his defense without being labeled a “hater”
@@joeb588it is, I e made 💰 taking his opposing centers overs in a sgp of points & rebs - sabonis lit him up Lgame, now 2b fair he dies expend ALOT of energy on D bcuz the roster has been depleted over the years
Porter for Jimmy is objectively insane
Overall a lateral move in the present. Net negative long term.
I could see it if the nuggets feel like their window is closing in the next two years. Otherwise its pretty insane
@@kevink1575 ??? Jimmy is legit a top 15 player, with Jokic top 10
MPJ's stats are massively inflated by playing with Jok.
Garland for Jimmy is way worse. Garland’s numbers would be insane if Mitchell didn’t eat into his production
Throw in jontays jail jammies
NBA pod request: please bring on the Thinking Basketball guys. They'll actually have great analysis and won't say dumb things like "Jokic has terrible defense" with no context or analytics to support the claim.
Wrote about his defensive deficiencies in SI last week!
@@SIChrisMannix read the article. No mention of how Jokic calls out the opposing teams plays, communicates on defense, is always in the right position, gets rebounds, and doesn’t foul leading to easy FTs.
Of course he’s not an athletic defender - but there’s more to defense.
Also, when he’s your team’s entire offense - it’s on the GM and Coach to put a defensive team around him.
@@SIChrisMannix still sore he made you look bad in 2023?
I really don't think that their thing fits with the Ringer. Kind of like mixing oil with water. The Ringer comes from the Sports Radio Lineage. Thinking Basketball comes from the Internet Forum Lineage.
Also, they will say dumb things too. They'll just dress it up in enough jargon and cherry-picked stats to trick people.
Haha@@alextrivunovic644he can't forget that like EVER 🤣🤦🤷🤡🥲🥲🥲
Damn, I didn’t realize Chris Mannix was this dense.
Same lol this is some clownish stuff
@@nocturne311 listen to him on dp some time lol
Most of Bill's guests have really dropped off hard lately, even KOC, Zach lowe, and others, the only ones I really enjoy is Michael Lombardi for football and Kirk Goldsberry for bball
Bill is so scared of Zombie Heat lol
He's dying to get Butler off that team and to the West
@@cptsketch13 Seriously. I'm surprised we haven't seen Conspiracy Bill argue that Butler is somehow Andrew Toney's son
And rightly so. Over the last five years its been Boston with the most playoff wins followed by the Heat.
@@michaelahurt🤣🤣
Naw heat are 🗑️ this year , will get gentlemen's swept again if they play the celts 😂
Jokic is 4th in steals. Chris Mannix is still sour from Nuggets fans trolling him for 2 years straight 😂
Because he plays 40 minutes a night
@@ksm4648he playing one more minute than sga☠️☠️☠️
Because he plays the passing lanes good, they mentioned that, but objectively he’s not a rim protector and he can’t switch, so yes he’s a bad defensive center
"Jokic's defense is terrible"? I'm sorry, I think you mean "your 'analysis' is terrible."
It's true, Jokic is down from the last three years... but for three years he was first in defensive box plus/minus and top ten in defensive win shares. (Two times, he was first in DBPM and second in DWS.) Those are All Defensive, DPOY type numbers. He's not there this year, which combined with giving up KCP for nothing and Gordon being injured is why the Nuggets' defense is ghastly instead of weak. Nonetheless, Jokic himself remains solidly a plus, and in fact, he's still leading the Nuggets in both categories for the seventh year in a row.
Want to whinge about advanced stats even though they're better than the box score at both predicting outcomes and matching up with the precious eye test? In the box score, Jokic is seventh in the NBA in steals. Not seventh among centers (he's first, obvs), not seventh among frontcourt players, seventh *overall*.
Jokic almost wholly responsible for organizing the Nuggets on defense, performing the same herding cats role Draymond Green has for Golden State.
And obviously to say he's bad at "defense" you have to just dismiss defensive rebounding entirely.
If you can't see what Jokic does on the defensive end, that's you failing to understand the game, not him failing to elevate the team on both ends.
@@MoogleEmpMog I’m a nuggets fan but stop. Jokic half the times doesn’t try on defense
Nuggets lost to the wolves because of Jokics defense. The media gave him a pass as always.
@@jc0257 For the sake of argument, let's say this were true.
Why do YOU think Jokic shows up year after year near the top of lists that are otherwise populated exclusively by players who are considered great defenders?
If this were a fluky thing, you could say it's low sample size and relatively noisy stats. But this has been consistent for half a decade, and Jokic plays a ton of games every year so the sample size is one of the largest in the NBA. All of these metrics consider him not just a good defender but a great one.
If Jokic scored really well in one metric but was bad in the others, you could say it was some odd flaw in that metric. But he's been excellent defensively by every publicly available metric I can find.
If Defensive Box Plus/Minus, Defensive Win Shares, and Defensive Rating were throwing up odd results left and right, then you could say they're just bad stats. But everyone else on these lists is somebody who'd immediately leap to your mind as a great defender. Either someone rightly lauded as a two-way superstar (Giannis, AD, Jason Tatum) or someone who reaches star level because of their defense (Rudy Gobert, Evan Mobley, Bam Adebayo, Draymond Green) or a high-level defensive role player (Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Brook Lopez).
Is there literally no point at which the evidence could become so overwhelming that you'd say "Maybe this dude who is famous for having one of the highest basketball IQs ever knows more about what he's doing than I do?"
I think you can make an argument that Jokic shouldn't be in the DPOY conversation most years because the *way* he plays defense is more like a guard than a traditional center, and that limits the degree to which he can raise a team's defensive floor.
I don't understand how any serious person can make a coherent argument that he's not at worst a *good* defender, though.
@@MoogleEmpMog It's a double standard. People don't think a center is a good defender unless he is a traditional shot blocker. But then they also call Rudy Gobert overrated. And when Dwight was the best center in Basketball, they griped that he didn't have a post game like Shaq. All to serve the interests of their guy, whether it's Lebron or Embiid.
Jokic pick and roll defence is awesome, he is so good at reading the ball handler. Jokic is not good at defending the rim but the fact he is not chasing blocks helps his defensive rebounding positioning.
chris mannix never fails to disappoint! what a clown
saying Jokic is terrible defensively instantly loses all credibility.
@@uberneanderthal Not really. He is pretty bad at defense. just because you get some steals for playing 40 minutes a night doesnt mean u are a good defender
@@ksm4648 jokic is limited physically on defense but he is a smart defender. he calls out plays from the opposing team. he gets steals because he reads the floor very well
@@ksm4648 every advanced statistic and a CHAMPIONSHIP say he's a great defender, but ok. 'muh eye test tho'
@ theres a ton of things defensively that statistics dont cover for, one is getting back on defense which he struggles mightly with. and yes a guaranteed championship vs an 8th seed without an offensive center isnt really a good case for you.
"All the things MPJ can do" you mean the one thing he does?
Literally one thing😂😂
Can't wait to trade and shake things up... This team can't win like ish! Can't wait
He’s fucking terrible lol
Gotta sprinkle in some Cleveland disrespect no matter the topic
Just discovered your channel. Great stuff.
You’re the best I’ve heard since Mike Francesa.
who, me?
Butler for Murray actually sounds better than Butler-MPJ, if Jamal's contract wasn't extended. Butler plays bigger than his size but they lose some flexibility with their line-ups and he doesn't improve their three-point shooting. He makes sense as an additional shot creator during crunch time but IMHO they would be better off trading away some of their younger guys for 3-and-D veterans or shop for overseas or G-League guys to improve at the fringes.
Butler to Houston looks to be a good fit but it depends on what Houston wants to do and which veteran to move out of - Brooks or VanVleet. It would also depend on what kind of contract Jimmy would agree to post-trade.
Except the Heat would never want Murray
@@ilovekaiyko There's that too. I still think Murray can improve, and may do better under the Pat Riley conditioning school, but as he is right now, he is not what Miami needs.
Some additional teams (not all realistic):
- ATL: Hunter + Capela (or swap one for others)
- SAC: DD + Huerter or Monk
- Pels: BI + filler
- Indy: Siakam (contract relief)
- MIN: Randle + Donte (Jimmy + Ant = must-watch)
- Clips: Mann + PJ + Powell
Thanks fir the boxing conversation. Appreciate that
OKC makes sense. His timeline on big money matches the young guys. They do need some edge if they are to win the championship this year.
@@davincidribbler7427 dort . Wallace Joe for jimmy
The murray extension was strange they extended him while he still wasnt playing well.. As for embiid he might get back to be ok maybe its next year wouldnt write it off yet and everyone does the extension embiid when healthy is great can he then ok..
Saying jokic is terrible on defense tells me you don’t watch him enough
Looks like u dont either because hes pretty bad
@ he’s in position all the time. Has to be the guy to get every one set. Is 7th overall in steals, best defensive rebounder in the game every advanced metric says he is an all time defender and the eye test says he is a very positive team defender. Again idk what you and this mannix dude are watchin
The game is way more fast paced. He’s a blow by every time in transition. His defense is actually very average. It’s easy to see he’s slow and can’t jump. And he should get rebounds because he’s bigger than everyone else.
Trading for MPJ who’s really just a overpaid shooter would be a terrible trade for the Heat lol
@@ethermac9015 lol 🤣 totally agree, he noth the good beside shooting
Yeah. You have Hero and to a lesser extent Robinson. He seems redundant
Can we stop it with the Prichard bs 😅😂
Love the pod normally but I can’t stand mannix. Truly awful
@@Jacob23615 totally agree, what a awful take on MPJ
i've never seen what he looks like and he looks like one of my cool cousins
Hmmmm. I've always liked him. Not seeing anything there.
He’s Botarded.
@@AB-sw4kb id definitely smoke some regg with him before thanksgiving dinner.
Heat fan here. You can have Herro. He doesnt pass. He always wants thr last shot. He stunk vs Detroit snd had no business taking the last shot. Jimmy was in fire. I wish the Heat would trade Herro
Mannix saying trade Wiggins for Butler , just shows to be on sports talk it’s not what you know it’s who you know , this guy is lost in the sauce
Cam Johnson is the guy in Denver
Bingo. Great 3pt shooter, god defender, knows how to be 3-4th option. Of course you lose the rebounding of Mike and the size of Frontline isn't as big.
I was hoping Orlando would get him.
@@vladahe is a solid defender. not a god defender at all 🤣
Jimmy Butler doesn’t really raise the floor for many contenders considering his salary, him wanting an extension, and the assets required to get him, in addition to the fact he’s not a reliable volume scorer when needed and he’s injury prone
Horrible take by mannix on MPJ. Also Jimmy Butler to Houston makes no sense. Bill usually wears a great historian hat but neither of these guys know much at all about actually playing ball or assembling talent that can win together.
@JamesWill-t8p love the troll. I guess you never played ball either 🤣
I love MPJ's game. At 26, I'd want him if I was Miami.
@@SIChrisMannix I like his game too but it’s really hard to overstate how much the Joker allows him to operate on offense. Such a gravitational force for the defense. A guy like MPJ would have a 20% lower net rating on a mediocre team.
@@vegasbound213 Jimmy to Houston makes perfect sense. They need a go to clutch scorer if they want to win right now and Jimmy also can play consistent great defense, which is needed in Ime’s system.
@@Lampsadviceyou may be right but he’s not interested in living there. Rockets have youth, athleticism, etc. I just think it’s a stretch to commit all that money to JB at this age. If he wants a ring now Houston makes no sense.
Jaime Jaquez ? 😂
Micheal Porter Jr ??
Bruh, we all knew Jimmy was gone during Pat Riley's end of season rant
Tyler Herro - empty stats on a crap team. He's a B or C player at best
I love the boxing talk
Thank you, Chris Mannix, for acknowleding that Joker's defense is bad to mediocre at best. We have 👀, not just statistics 😂
Spotify now allows comments, yet they're turned off for your podcast?
Butler on the Grizzlies would be awesome. They would have to give up something like Smart, Clarke, Kennard, Konchar and probably a pick.
Boston fan, "do you think the Celtics would trade a flash in the pan 6th man that will undoubtedly fizzle out in 1-3 seasons for a 2 time mvp, dopy and finals mvp player?". "The fact that we're even asking the question"...prooves how dumb that comment was.
I would love if the Nuggets found away to avoid shipping MPJ, especially when most of the trades are just not a good 1 for 1 swap in my opinion. But lets say they do MPJ & Nnaji for Cam and Finney-Smith. MPJ for Cam is close enough, but Nnaji for Finney-Smith gives em another 3 & D wing with length that's a good upgrade. Dunno if either team would go for it.
The team that needs Jim Butler the most is a team that already have a for sure number 1 and number 2 option and Jimmy can be that number 3 guy that I think he naturally is. So a team like the Bucks.
F it, send Jimmy to Cleveland but CLE gets to keep everyone else
You can get into Cam Johnson w/out trading MPJ though..
Cam and DFS for mike. Let's goooo
Mannix is trash. See how amusing it is when PHX gets it done
Love mannix, great pod!
@@nicholasbird6299 he’s terrible
@@vidalgutierrez1736you’re terrible
Lol 🤣🤡🤦
Miami is the team that needs Jimmy the most; they should've given him the extension. They STILL should. No reasonable trade Miami could make is gonna turn the Heat into Celtic beaters.
All this praise for what Butler brings is fine, but will he bring it? Jimmy plays hard when he wants to. And is Denver willing to pay Jimmy 50mm per year?
They are willing to pay Murray and MPJ, and Butler is WAY better.
@@mookz34I love Jimmy, but he's going to be 36 before next season. He's been injury prone the past few years. I don't think he's suddenly going to get healthier at 36.
@@MrOctober44he only roll his ankle he don’t really have major injuries
@@Blazenetwork1990he's missed about 70 games since 2021. Those smaller injuries become more frequent and longer to heal from the older a player gets
Butler just wants to win, and at least you know with him hes gonna give 110% ever second hes on the court come playoff time. i think hes just mastered the regular season coast to make sure hes good to go for the playoffs
I love it when Bill becomes like this, where I don't know if he's trolling, or is just a classic delusional fan like the rest of us 😂
Dude was 6/2/2 during the last playoffs, take it easy 😂
@17:56 come on…
Jimmy to phx is already a some deal, let’s go!
Someone finally pointed bout Jokic defence on Bill' pod.
Jokic is having insane offensive season but on defence he is a cone this year
Jokic averages more steals, defensive rebounds and deflections than Giannis though
Looking for good defense in the nba is like looking for nobility in Capitol Hill, it’s whatever you can talk yourself into
@@mbelma6329 It is a layup line for aggressive bigs when Jokić is in the paint.
@@brettdavis5873 Did you watch the game last night?
That’s just not true tho
Cam Johnson has likely incentives in his contract, so his cap number is not 22 million. It is 27 million.
Memphis would make so much sense but they would have to give up too much to match his salary (or they have to throw in Bane).
I will listen to all of Bill’s NBA content. Except when Waz is on of course. The only nba I will watch the entire year will be on accident.
Houston is perfect imo I feel udoka and jimmy are perfect for each other
How do you love “everything” MPJ can do?? You mean shoot 3s? Lol
Fax😅
@@MarcFerrer-n3h I guess he means shooting 3s from everywhere from behind the arch lol
Don’t know who this guy is but it would legitimately be hard to name a more one dimensional player in the league lmao
top 10 shooter in the league at 6’10 doesnt grow on trees.
@@ilovekaiyko So say you love his shooting.. MPJ is a shooter
Dennis schroeder can be traded again in aggregate with other players 60 days from when his last trade date just became official.
How do these guys not know the nba trade rules??
Not really sure I get why any one of these teams that have a solid youth movement who play hard and are frankly a few years away from really contending would want a 35 year old Jimmy Butler who will want an extension, it feels like this is just speculation for the sake of speculation.
why is butler and someone else for booker not on the table. I feel like that is a fun good trade for both teams
Wasn’t Tyson generational before Usyk? And Wilder before them? And Anthony too?
If youre going to go by feelings and not have any numbers to back it up, just get Jussie Perkins. Lazy, narrative led analysis at its finest.
The last years of a player like Butler ain't gonna be pretty for anyone. The only good scenario would be him in a young tanking team, so some of his character get into the youngsters. I don't want to see Kobe last years redux, thanks.
jimmy to phoenix
have to trade garland for butler lmfao okay
Jokic is 2nd in the league in rebounding right now, at 9.9 rebounds per game. That’s part of defense, isn’t it?
Hes averaging 13 boards a game
@@JHS447 What league are you watching
Whoops! Confused his assists with his rebounding stats. Still, my point was valid even if my numbers were screwed. 🤪
@@JHS447 lol fair, we all make mistakes
Why does Bill keep saying Houston? If he doesn’t fit the Heat’s timeline, how in the world does he fit the Rockets?
Jokic the current king of the league
Butler to the Nuggets.
Jimmy doesn't fit Miami's timeline with Bam and Hero but he somehow fits Houston's timeline????😂
I see even the pros say this all the time. Brad beal isnt the same guy ect. He was puttting numbers up on a bad team. There are so many guys who can put huge numbers up on bad teams.
Id trade porter in a minute if I were denver. Idk if its just me, but every time I watch Denver, Porter sucks. Maybe its bad luck on my part when I watch, but he misses 5 in a row and cant defend at all when I do tune in. And I also don't have a masters in basketball, but it seems like every shot he is moving during his shot to one side. He cant ever seem to take a balanced, solid form shot. IDK. I don't think he is worth his contract at all. Id love Jimmy on the team or Cam Johnson.
It's his contract, for sure. I'd love to have Zach Lavine on my team, if his contract was half of what it is. MPJ is killing the Nuggets cap by not playing up to his contract. Same with Murray. Teams can't contend unless their players play up to their contracts.
@shorewall murray just seems out of shape man. He is moving slow, looks labored and low energy. The talent is still there and it shows, but its the consistently playing to that ceiling thats a problem. Mpj just jas never appealed to me. I think people see a 6'10 guy who can shoot and think oh thats worth 1/5 of our salary cap.... no dude it isnt. Nobody is going to be durant, stop. People do the exact same thing with height for centers. No man, most of the time 7'5 people are literal trees who cant even play basketball, theyre just tall. You wont get a Wemby every year. Sorry, rant over. I just want MPJ out
@@bradyoung1714 Its definitely the games u are watching because hes a top 10 shooter in the league and shows it every year
Pat Riley should Trade Jimmy for ZIon his new project
Is this guy a mouthpiece for some lobbyist agent or GM? Is this ATN News?
Grizzlies is the best and only spot.
2022 is 2022.
2024 is a completely different team. And the entire league is different. Cannot stand when "pro analysts" pin their takes on the past. Which is not a predictor of the future. Most definitely that far of the past.
The Warriors, Nuggets or Grizzlies, Rockets are good fit for Bulter
Okc would be a great fit
My only problem with butler going to Houston is who we have to give up and also we wouldn’t be a contender this year with him anyways. He’d make us tough to beat but we have no chance at beating the best with him
@@bcs259 Yeah, the Rockets are not Jimmy Butler away from a chip. Better to wait and see how their guys develop, and how Butler regresses.
So, you want Golden State to essentially gut their entire team to bring Butler in and then....what....?
Lol. I was thinking that. They only real assests they have is Kuminga, Podz, and Wiggins and you'd be trading two of them for an almost 36, pending free agent. I don't think Moody has much value/garners much interest.
@@missioncodez and then have 2 top 10 players and make one more run with curry for another ring
It’s one more shot for Curry’s sake, the current roster is going nowhere
@@lukeremsberg5796 Butler's not a Top 10 player and, even if he was, what is your plan? To have the Warriors play 2-on-5 games? Who is left on the Warriors depth-wise?
@ in that situation: Steph, Schroder, Jimmy, Draymond, Looney (or TJD they’ve been switch starting centers). Off the bench: buddy, GP2, moody, Kyle Anderson, the other of the centers (that’s 10 deep), then Lindy Waters who’s literally been starting games and anyone else included in the trade / buyouts.
If being the best player on multiple finals teams in the last 5 years isn’t top 10 (“if he ever was”) then I guess winning just doesn’t matter your rankings? Just look at his playoff stats, Kelly Oubre dove into his knees last year right before the playoffs but the year before that he put up better stats than Ant did in 2024 playoffs with much better 3pt shooting and is a better defense and people were talking about Ant as a top 5 player after last playoffs.
Jimmy doesn’t take shots in the regular season, but has consistently outplayed every single star he’s playing in the post season without a single above average offensive player on his team for any of those playoffs runs
As a Rockets fan I don't want Butler he is too old and when they wanted him before he went to Miami he wouldn't give them the time of day when he was a free agent.
Gsw could of got Lauri Markenn for picks and Brandon they wouldn't give up Brandon now its Brandon for butler.. For real?
Rockets should go for derozan tbh
Id like to see wilder Joshua
Bulls need to get Jimmy back. Dump Zach + another player for contract and 2 first rounders and get Jimmy. The team instantly has heart and leadership that's been lacking and will create a ruckus in the East. Jimmy can also help Coby unlearn the terrible selfish-iso habits he's picked up from Zach.
You gotta protect porter from his own brain too
Why is Chris Mannix ever talking about basketball (with Bill Simmons no less), he only follows boxing and even that does subpar
Probably because he has been an NBA reporter for years. Not sure where you have been.
Your guideline is stick to the topic yet Mannix said he’s a bad defender EVEN though he’s averaging 14 boards, a block and steal a game. Come on, bring me in instead man, damn.
There are two guys (Levert, Jerome) on the Cavs bench having as good of a season as Prichard.
Pritchard has the 2nd most made 3pt shots in the league this year as a bench player. Teams are shifting their defense when he comes into the game so he doesn't get end-of-quarter shots off. Pritchard is averaging more RPG than both of them despite being 4-5" shorter than them. Both of those guys have slightly higher assists per game and slightly higher shooting percentages, but I don't know if any teams take them above Pritchard given the chance.
Pritchard is a hell of a player , great value for what C's are paying him
Only a Cavs fan could actually think that
MPJ seems like a guy who could have career resurgence and make a couple all-star teams
He's talented, it's just his health.
I could see it. I'd give it maybe 7% chance.
He's the third option, unless AG goes for 25, then he's 4th. He'd have to move to another team for this to happen.
@@vladahe saying that bro,
@vlada the whole discussion was about MPJ going to another team as their only trade chip.
Nobody wants MPJ. Maybe on a min contract
Nuggets send mpj for simmons
Mavs need Butler.
Only the Warriors or the Lakers imo
@patrickhanlon2325 😆. Butler does not fit with Bron and AD on the same team. No spacing at all
@pinbarbecue1100 bron and ad don't have long have long left. They need to either go for it now or rebuild. Jimmy isn't a great fit but he could be enough to make them a real contender
The fit doesn't work with the Lakers. And simply sending Gab back and filler doesn't work either😅 they gonna want picks and young guys!
If there s a team that the Heat are not afraid of… it s Boston !
Also, the chance of KP, Horford and/or Holiday being injured is quite high. If the Celtics miss 2 out of these 3 players, the opportunity to beat is there for a few teams in the east
Celtics beat heat 4-0 or 4-1
The dude barely plays. Why would you want him
Now look at his playoff availability...i'll wait
“Butler doesn’t fit the Heats timeline everyone is 27 or younger” so it makes sense to trade him to the Rockets whose timeline he fits even worse??😂 quit putting the rockets in with jimmy butler trade talks what a clown shoe
What timeline? 😂 if they got a young good player then Bam would be too old.. there is no time line to have a time line you need one of those all time great players with none on your roster what the f timeline are you talking about
Mannix is just wrong - this is Jokic's best defensive season - his hands have never been better and he is our defensive rebounding
Except everyone can score on him at the rim 😂 the Mavs dropped 60 points on his head in the paint 😂
@Joeshiesty286 That's not how he plays defense though. He plays defense by trying to swipe at the ball and swing down where most bigs play bigger. His defense has been better it's just not normal big man defense. He's like top five and steals per game That's what he does he gets in passing lanes. He's still a road cone at the rim no question
@@Joeshiesty286 Yeah, I guess he should foul out of games going for blocks when he is the team's only offense, and primary defensive rebounder.
Fact is, he is so good on offense and Rebounding that his defense doesn't matter. I know you have trouble understanding that, but it is true. Same with Magic Johnson, who wasn't a good defender either. But they both score and facilitate the entire offense, so they bring so much to the team that griping about their defense is weak sauce.
@@Joeshiesty286lol crybaby Luka d rider i see... It's beautiful how Jokić killing you and how Luka can't be mentioned in the same sentence 😭🤡🥲😉
really missing Kevin O'Connor....
He has his own pod now with yahoo u can follow him there
KOC is baseline bad, just like Justin Verrier and half the guys at the Ringer. I can only stand Bill and House, Jalen and Verno, Woz and Rob, and sometimes Russillo.
Should go back to the bulls
Fawth Quatah!
I can't believe that dude has a job at Sports Illustrated. Absolutely no clue what he's talking about, had to be corrected multiple times by Bill. Embarrassing even having him on the pod. Please dont bring him back.
Butler to young ass Houston makes no sense
Jesus is the way the truth and the life love one another pray for one another Jesus Loves you🙏🙏🙏❤❤❤
Bill u don’t know if the heat not going to beat no team in the playoffs yall said the same thing in 22 and 23
Chris couldn't be more wrong everytime
Bill is so dumb GSW can still put dennis in a salary trade why does this man get to run a podcast.. f it annoys me dont be nice call him out for not knowing his one job
Sit jokic with a phantom injury and tank for one season. Get one of those studs in the draft or use that as a trade chip. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but it could possibly give Jokic a mini Dynasty
He'll never agree to it.
Man every projected stood isn’t a stood. There’s no one player outside the top 10 would warrant a really valuable trade piece. Plus you still gotta match salaries
A generation brought up on quitting and tanking think that everyone has the same quitter mentality. All for some snot nosed high school kid who is usually a one trick pony? Delusional at best.
@@vlada Do you feel better about your miserable self for attacking people's character for understanding that there are only a couple ways to make a small market team better. Continue all the passive aggressive attacks on me for understanding that's just how teams not in LA or NY get better. The don't have the assets or money to make there team dramatically better so tell me how else they get better? Rather attack people come up with a solution. I'm just realistic. Tough guy
Jimmy is going nowhere. He is staying put. New cap rules will kill all deals. These takes are all pointless