Did he really mean it? That she was so altered when he was still in love with her? Why would he lie - 28 is very early to lose your bloom lol - I’m holding onto mine till 70
@@kumbimukaro6343 He says it to be vindictive, in my opinion. He's angry at her so it's a dig at her. He probably knew it would get back to her. I love Persuasion, but I don't like Captain Wentworth's treatment of Anne when they meet again after many years apart.
@patty I can see your point. There’s a pervasive cultural believe that a romantic pursuit is at the same time an adversary. 100’s years later it’s still present.
@@pattysolson8434 I'm not sure that I completely agree with you. Captain Wentworth had been hurt by Anne being persuaded to break up with him. He had been hurt deeply, yet he had never in the eight years met another woman who matched his (idealised, imagined) memory of Anne Elliott. It is possible that he speaks the complete truth that the real Anne Elliott, eight years older, could not match his remembered ideal. Further, the authorial voice (or possibly Lady Russell) have already told us that the eight years had "not been kind" to her features. If we accept that present day Anne Elliott could never match the Idealized memories, even if she had not deteriorated as the author/Lady Russell tells us that she has, then, possibly, Wentworth is being completely honest. Just a thought!
Persuasion is one of Austen’s best novels but some of the things she says in the book should not be taken at face value. For instance Anne Elliot is the 27-year-old daughter of a baronet but has never seen her father in the company of nobility. Hence people conclude that baronets, the lowest ranking holders of an hereditary title, were kept at arm’s length by people with grander titles. But in real life it would have been extraordinary for a 27-year-old baronet’s daughter to have never seen her father in the company of earls and viscounts etc because they moved in the same social circles. Presumably, Austen thus wanted to indicate that Sir Walter Elliot was side-lined because he was such a pompous fool. The fact that he was a baronet was not the issue. Furthermore, Anne’s elder sister Elizabeth is obsessed with the idea of marrying a baronet or someone with baronet’s blood. Hence people assume that the daughters of baronets were too insignificant to marry dukes etc but that was not the case. For instance, in 1810 Anna Maria Dashwood married the Marquess of Ely and one of her contemporaries, Kitty, Countess of Carnarvon, was the daughter of a baronet’s eldest son. Moreover, Emily, Countess Cowper (a leading figure at Almack’s, the exclusive high society club in London) was the granddaughter of baronets.
I think what I like so much about Anne Elliott, Elinor Dashwood, and Fanny Price is their efforts to master themselves and their thoughts. The postmodern mind is consumed with “following your heart,” but seeing heroines who try to master their emotions and govern their conduct is part of their enduring appeal.
Yes. So many of Austen's protagonists are such reasonable women! I love that they are. It's not that their hearts don't matter, I think--it's that they are careful with their hearts, more like we ought to be today.
I agree. Marianne always annoyed me with her dramaqueenyness. By all means be sad, but don't wallow endlessly. A little wallowing is permissible, but dramatically starving yourself sick and hanging out in the rain is ott, thanks.
It's worth noting, I think, that these are the heroines whose minds we see in conflict - we witness their internal struggles, which the people in their environments are largely unaware of.
I feel that much of Anne’s belief that she is past her bloom is due to the inexcusable narcissism of her father. Clearly, she is an attractive woman, as seen by Mr. Elliott’s double take in Lyme. I think there is some parental persuasion to shore up the insecurity of any woman advancing in years. Don’t we all wonder what our high school sweethearts will think of us at a reunion? Of course. Now, add in a father making constant cutting remarks about our skin tone, complexion, hairstyle, personality, and basic worth to the family, and is there any wonder she readily believed Wentworth could hardly know her (for the old hag she had become)? Not to be crude, but Sir Walter is an ass.
The most important turning point in Persuasion is actually the walk to Winthrop, while Charles and Henrietta visit their aunt and cousins, Mary, Anne Louisa and Wentworth are left on the top of the hill. Louisa and Wentworth wander off and Anne hears some of their conversation. Louisa eventually tells Wentworth of Charles wanting to marry Anne and her refusal. This is the moment Wentworth’s beliefs about Anne are stopped in their tracks and he begins to question them. Anne is preoccupied with other aspects of that chat and so are the readers, but his behaviour changes almost immediately. Louisa expects him to respond to her assertiveness but he is actually distracted. Louisa actually has to escalate her assertiveness to get his attention which explains why she jumps off the Cobb the second time.
Hi. I have enjoyed your comment. In Pride and Prejudice the snobbish upstart Bingley sisters criticise Elizabeth Bennet for walking to Netherfield and yet in Persuasion other members of the landed gentry likewise walk a long way.
I wholeheartedly agree with you! In the 1990s film version of "Persuasion", Ciaran Hinds plays this change of heart, at that moment, beautifully. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland
The part where you mention Mary’s oblivion toward inflicting a peculiar wound on Anne has so much of Austen’s irony packed into it, since Mary always imagines herself the target of injury from others.
She's so fabulously insufferable! And - as you suggest - almost unable to conceive that someone might be injured who isn't her. Mary is aware enough to know that Wentworth was "not [being] very gallant" about Anne, and yet she still told Anne, unasked, what he had said (ch.7). The very first time readers encounter Mary we see her in all her glory! I can’t resist quoting it: Mary “was very prone to add to every other distress that of fancying herself neglected and ill-used … on Anne's appearing, [Mary] greeted her with- ‘So, you are come at last! I began to think I should never see you. I am so ill I can hardly speak. I have not seen a creature the whole morning!’ ‘I am sorry to find you unwell,’ replied Anne. ‘You sent me such a good account of yourself on Thursday!’ ‘Yes, I made the best of it; I always do: but I was very far from well at the time; and I do not think I ever was so ill in my life as I have been all this morning: very unfit to be left alone, I am sure. Suppose I were to be seized of a sudden in some dreadful way, and not able to ring the bell! ...’ Anne said what was proper, and enquired after her husband. ‘Oh! Charles is out shooting. I have not seen him since seven o'clock. He would go, though I told him how ill I was. He said he should not stay out long; but he has never come back, and now it is almost one. I assure you, I have not seen a soul this whole long morning...’” (ch.5)
Mary is SO revolting she seems ridiculous.... BUT Thinking back I remember SO many "frenemies" in my past I should have dumped but was too nice to do so... Austen REALLY HELPS WHEN A NICE PERSON IS TRYING TO WALK AWAY...BECAUSE WE ARE FREE TO DO SO NOW....
It's interesting that Anne accepts the self-involved Mary's report as accurate. She certainly should know from experience that Mary's viewpoint is woefully skewed.
When Anne reconfigures Wentworth’s “so altered” statement in her thoughts, she is also increasing its harshness, I think, in an attempt to more successfully quash her own emotional hopes that she has been trying to “reason herself out of.” “Altered beyond his knowledge” speaks of an utter, irredeemable disconnect between them, wherein even memories of their former relationship are obliterated. She is telling herself, much to her own misery, that anything they had, anything she flattered herself they might find again, is completely finished, that the flutter of hope she felt in spite of herself at seeing him again was, indeed, only a ridiculous self-deception. Another recurrent note in “Persuasion” is that Anne’s life has led her to chronically underestimate her own abilities and her own appeal. Charles wanted her, Captain Bennick wants her, the Musgroves clearly adore her as do Admiral and Mrs. Wentworth. . . Yet none of this seems to influence her own self-image as a cipher-a self-mage her narcissistic father and sister, and even the well-meaning Lady Russell, have relentlessly imposed upon her.
Great point, Mindi. Absolutely. Anne takes Mary's comment, "'You were so altered he should not have known you again", and reworks into the much more brutal, "Altered beyond his knowledge". "Anne fully submitted, in silent, deep mortification". It's as if she wants to make her own "mortification" deeper.
Indeed, Anne is the victim of narcissistic abuse. I was abused in a similar manner, and I lost all confidence in myself and my abilities. The film version from the 1990s starring Ciaran Hinds portrays this situation very well. I also think that Lady Russell is one of the villains of this story. She is hell-bent on destroying Anne's happiness at every turn, and she works hard to keep Anne humble. Her family and Lady Russell benefit from keeping Anne down because a humble Anne will not want to rebel against the subservient role that she plays in their lives. She is taken for granted by all. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland Edit: Captain Wentworth seems to see Anne's situation for what it really is, and he sees that very quickly. I give him a lot of credit for that in spite of his initial bitterness towards her.
@@DrOctaviaCox I think her concern with the alteration remark is clearly a projection of her own fears that she is 'past her prime' or a flower that is faded on the vine, that she's missed her chance and there's no hope of a satisfying resolution to her unmarried state. Note that it does not remotely occur to her that she may have grown into a maturity and presence that commands more interest from the object of her affections. She's just dragging herself down.
Absolutely - they are very conscious of each other, even though they avoid direct conversation (until they get to Bath). For instance, the scene when - without talking to each other - Wentworth removes one of the Musgrove children who is climbing over Anne's back: "The younger boy, a remarkable stout, forward child, of two years old ... began to fasten himself upon her, as she knelt, in such a way that, busy as she was about Charles, she could not shake him off. She spoke to him, ordered, entreated, and insisted in vain. Once she did contrive to push him away, but the boy had the greater pleasure in getting upon her back again directly. "Walter," said she, "get down this moment. You are extremely troublesome. I am very angry with you." "Walter," cried Charles Hayter, "why do you not do as you are bid? Do not you hear your aunt speak? Come to me, Walter, come to cousin Charles." But not a bit did Walter stir. In another moment, however, she found herself in the state of being released from him; some one was taking him from her, though he had bent down her head so much, that his little sturdy hands were unfastened from around her neck, and he was resolutely borne away, before she knew that Captain Wentworth had done it." (Persuasion, ch.9).
@@DrOctaviaCox This is a telling incident, but of course it is of a kind that a thoughtful person might render to anyone who was bothered in this way by a small child, and therefore not necessarily a mark of particular gallantry or regard for Anne. This shows how creatively Austen creates ambiguity in this book.
@@DrOctaviaCox I love that scene. It speaks volumes about Wentworth's character and also how he quietly, and without fuss, attends to Anne's well-being when no-one else can be bothered to.
@@gkelly941 Similar to Capt Wentworth seeing to it that Anne has a ride in the Croft's gig coming home from the Hayters' farm. Yes, it is common decency and human compassion, but it also shows that he is "tuned in" to Anne's needs. Anne is not sure how to take it herself.
When I was first reading through Austen, without any critical context or adaptations in my mind, Anne was the character I related to the most. I have a family member like Mary. I have a tendency to doubt myself. I loved the story and it’s mixture of comedy and malaise. I am very disappointed with all of the adaptations and how somber they are and how they portray Anne as depressed and sullen. The adaptations are always so grey. In the books, I read her more as contemplative and just trying to accept her life as it is, albeit with regrets about her past.
Anne is probably my favorite Austen protagonist, followed probably by Fanny in Mansfield Park and Eleanor in Sense and Sensibility. I never realized the reason why. As I grew older, I realize that I was drawn to them because they are strong, quiet protagonists with what I see as good, level judgment. Their internal dialogue is really insightful. Too often it's easy to assume that a person has to be loud to have a strong character. The quieter Austen characters clearly had a lot of thoughts and opinions and judgments. They didn't need to be super loud or super witty in order to be smart and strong. In Austen, anyway, the right people trust their judgments and know to listen when they talk. Wentworth certainly trusts Anne's insight. I don't know that she trusts herself as much as he trusts her. I love Captain Wentworth for showing that the right people know to listen when you talk--there will be those people who will want to listen, and they are the right people for you.
Yes, I've noticed that type of quiet character with strong opinions and feelings in her books too. Jane Fairfax is one other, and for men of course Darcy, and to a lesser degree Mr. Knightley. I suspect she based them all on one person she knew who was beloved to her and taught her important lessons in life. Jane Fairfax, Fanny and Anne too I think, also are all described with 'light' eyes.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. I feel the change is an interior change not just in her appearance or " glow". When she was persuaded when she was 19 by Lady Russell and her family to break off her engagement with Wentworth, she didn't have the personality she now has at the age of 27. I believe Wentworths' not recognizing her as the same girl he knew is correct, she is not the same person. Her ability to clearly see how pathetic her father and sisters are shows how her judgment has changed. The first change that I see with Captain Wentworth towards Anne Elliot is when Louisa Musgrove tells him that she wishes Anne had accepted Charles Musgrove's proposal so he wouldn't have married Mary. This sparked his interest in Anne again and has him reflecting why Anne would not have accepted an offer of a man who is wealthy ( or will inherit a tidy fortune). This piece of information gets him thinking and he wants to know how long ago this happened. This shows his interest in Anne and it would show to him of her continuing interest in him. This is before the seashore where her bloom appeared to have a second chance.
Unfortunately it doesn’t show her continued interest in him until she can tell him herself, instead it furthers his prejudice against her when Louisa says she thinks it was lady Russels doing. When this time It was 100% Anne.
Am I the only one that is brought to tears when reading these passages in Persuasion where Anne’s internal monologues are so beautifully put to words by Austen? I think perhaps if you’ve been an Anne all of your life you feel the depth and accuracy of Austen’s portrayal of that harsh, ruthless inner voice that is so difficult to silence. You try to reason with it but in the end what can you do but accept its truth? You aren’t pretty or attractive and never will be. You don’t fit in and you would rather hide from people and situations that make you feel this way, often escaping into the world of imagination. The older you get, the less you have any hope this will change. You must find a way to live your life knowing you will never be amongst those blessed with love or a relationship. In fact, luckily for Anne, Wentworth is a true kindred spirit who learns again to value her inner beauty to the point where it seems to animate her outwardly in his eyes. She is very fortunate he was this kind of man. They are very hard to find. I certainly found it impossible and when I read Persuasion I feel Austen herself did also. How else can she so accurately and heart-wrenchingly show Anne’s harsh inner thoughts if she had not experienced such self-dialogue herself? We all wish to be Elizabeth Bennett but I know I’m more of an Anne Elliot and perhaps Austen was as well. Our Captain Wentworts never appeared for us. We had to find other ways to make life fulfilling and happy. In my mid 40’s I made the decision to become a single mother by choice and my little daughters are the light of my life. I’m so lucky and blessed this was an option for me as it never could have been for Anne Elliott or Jane Austen. Yet the pain is there and never really goes away which is why I’m crying silent tears as I listen to your analysis of these passages. What magnificent writing! And oh - how the heart can cry out when you acknowledge you are unimportant, quiet, sensitive, plain and unlovable!
I had always imagined he used this comment as a buffer from the hurt he still felt after all those years. He still keenly feels the rejection. Anne mirrors this 'buffer'; she still feels the annoyance at herself for being told to reject the man she loved and still loves. Mary is a manipulative little blighter, with this comment she exerts her dominance as the younger and only married sister because Anne is so well favoured by the party. Just my two penneth. I truly enjoy your videos. Thank you,
Thank you Moira - I'm so pleased you enjoy my videos. I certainly think that Wentworth has convinced himself (that theme of 'persuasion' again) that he no longer feels anything for Anne. And that he wants to persuade himself that he has no interest in knowing her again.
@@DrOctaviaCox As usual for Jane... it's a good plot. Each novel varies but those 'emotions ' are well known to us us all. She was a very astute lady and knew how to captivate and draw her audience in. I love her without measure. Thanks for your reply. 🥳😊🤗
Anne Elliot is my favorite Austin character. It always came across to me, that she needed to have such a rich internal life, due to a lack of support from her family and friend(s.) What’s the point of speaking out loud, if you’re always wrong? She seems like such a lonely character.....
Compensating for external disapproval with an unexpectedly rich inner life reminds me of Valancy from The Blue Castle, one of my all-time favorite books
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. Why? Because more than any other novel there is an almost tangible sexual tension between Anne and Captain Wentworth. Will they get together? Will they go their separate ways? There are so many impediments in their path. Will they overcome them? It makes you want to read to the end.
Because we don’t get to be in Mr. Wentworth’s head, this is hard to prove concretely, but I always thought that he was lying when he said Anne was ‘so altered he might not have recognized her’. I thought that (he thought) she was as beautiful as she was 8 years ago, if not more so, which made him angry at himself for still being attracted/having feelings because he was still bitter about the breakup. Thus he lashed out in a (successful) attempt to hurt Anne’s feelings, because there is no way he did not know that his words would make it back to Anne. As far as I’m concerned, if Anne really was worse looking as he claimed, Mr. Wentworth would have likely felt like he “won” the breakup, and been smug enough to make a bland and generically polite statement about her. Plus, the fact that multiple characters throughout the novel fall all over themselves for Anne indicates to me that Mr. Wentworth was being petty, and not truthful. This is just speculation, though.
I agree with you that Wentworth wasn't indifferent to Anne when he said those words, and that he was still angry at her (and perhaps with himself for still thinking of her, though I'm not sure he was self-aware enough to realize this). But I don't think he said those words with the intention of hurting Anne because of this passage: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot." So he did really think she was changed for the worse, or at least, that was his initial reaction, and he blurted it out without thinking that it would get back to Anne. Anger might have had something to do with that initial reaction, since the next sentence is, "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
Remember, Anne was very tired, she been up with a child with a broken bone because his mother is too selfish to tend him. Who among wouldn’t look a bit rough. Wentworth was being a bit of a brat too.
@@DrOctaviaCox I enjoy your analysis, but I could not have a favorite Austen book any more than a modern mother could have a favorite child. I love them all. But your commentaries let me see more about the craft that makes them so effective. And unlike other novelists of the nineteenth century, Austen does not rely on absurd ("Dickensian") coincidence or supernatural effects ("Jane, Jane") to resolve her plots.
What struck me while listening to this is that the progression of the main character's relationships seems to be when reason and feelings are congruent. Relationships in which feeling without reason predominate are perilous (Lydia Bennet - Marianne Dashwood) and relationships built only on reason (Charlotte) are equally to be rejected. In P&P Mr. Darcy was initially drawn to Elizabeth via his feelings against his reason.
These videos about Persuasion are so fascinating! Persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel, but dang if I didn't even notice that Anne and Wentworth almost never speak to each other! It's kinda funny, because I'm so outspoken and really insist on clear, open communication in my relationships with others, so I think it's fascinating that I am drawn to this book! I think I like how emotional it is. (I've always loved break-up songs, too... *shrugs*) Anyway, about this video, I think the lack of dialogue really reinforces the idea and feeling of isolation that Anne has been experiencing over the last 8 years. She has family, but they don't understand her and she can't be open with them. She has been bearing the stress of her family finances since her mother's death. And her friend, Lady Russell, with whom she seems to have the most open relationship... well, she can't talk to her about Captain Wentworth. She's been keeping up with his military career over the years and I'm sure every time she read of a success of his (or any time his name was mentioned), she would have liked to have had someone to talk to about her regrets and sadness... but there hasn't been anyone she could open up to about him. She's had to push down her feelings and just internalize them for almost a decade. And how he's there in front of her? I definitely understand why she's not being terribly communicative. I think the lack of dialogue really reflects the emotional state Anne has been in for so long.
Thank you! Yes, definitely - she has learnt to rely on herself for emotional support. as she finds little outside of herself. She almost has to have both sides of a conversation with herself!
Really late thought, but upon rereading, the relative lack of direct dialogue also emphasized for me the depth of Anne's history with Frederick, and the depth of their hurt. I can imagine that they HAD spoken during the first courtship. All the micro-expressions Anne reads from his face and actions. Knowing the sound and rhythm of his steps. Their silence and non-interaction reflecting both their pain.
One of the most important decisions an actress playing Anne in a film adaptation of Persuasion must make is how to portray the reaction to that sentence. "Silent deep mortification" indeed. Thanks for these videos, Dr. Cox, I find them fascinating. I have read all the novels several times so now I have found another way to engage with them.
I think Amanda Root managed this wonderfully in the 1995 movie. The direction emphasized her dejection in that moment, and I loved that she really was silent but clearly deeply mortified.
Ann’s father and sister frequently put her down for her looks she had heard them and believed that was what everyone must think after all she was 27 and single!
Given the characters of the two persons relaying Captain Wentworth's alleged remarks about Anne's appearance, I do not think we can be confident that the comment is accurately reported.
That's narcissistic abuse. They kept Anne down because Anne was useful to them as the spinster in the family. Anne took care of everybody and thought very little of herself. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland
Your breakdown of Anne’s thought processes are something that I will be sharing with my therapist to help them understand how internal monologging and analyzing and self-persuading I do. I’ve known I resonate with Anne more than any of Austen’s other characters, and thanks to your explanations in this video, now I know why. Thank you ❤️
Gosh - I'm very pleased that the video is helpful for you. Persuasion is such a wonderful depiction of a mind in action & in the process of thinking to itself.
"She had seen him. They had met. They had been once more in the same room." This reads almost as stream-of-consciousness (as it would later be called).
I also appreciated Dr. Cox's remarks on the brevity of these statements. I think I tend to FEEL the effects of Austen's writing style, but I love listening to the analysis in order to have a more conscious, concrete understanding.
Thank you! Now I truly understand the power of Jane Austen's images, as they unfold in her book PERSUASION. I am a serious re-reader of the Novels I enjoy. PERSUASION is my very favorite Novel; and it has often brought me to tears when I reread it. Thank you for teaching the true depth of Austen's thinking and her capacity to communicate to the reader. Dr Roberta
At the end Anne lets Wentworth's comment go without comment. Was she thinking he was blind to her faded looks due to love or had he always felt that way? Had he lied about her changing so much he not knowing/recognizing her or was he trying to convince himself that she had faded because he was angry? He hadn't said the first comment to her and maybe didn't know she knew he had said it. It's interesting because Elizabeth, Emma or Mary Crawford would have teased him about it, but Anne enjoyed the compliment that he loves her and leaves it be. Her steady love and gratitude in this passage lead me to think they would have a steady long lasting relationship without big conflicts.
Yes, she lets it go without comment out loud, but the reader is privy to her thoughts about it. Wentworth is talking to Anne after they have reconciled: "He [Wentworth's brother] enquired after you very particularly; asked even if you were personally altered, little suspecting that to my eye you could never alter." Anne smiled, and let it pass. It was too pleasing a blunder for a reproach. It is something for a woman to be assured, in her eight-and-twentieth year, that she has not lost one charm of earlier youth; but the value of such homage was inexpressibly increased to Anne, by comparing it with former words, and feeling it to be the result, not the cause of a revival of his warm attachment." (ch.23) So the reader does see that she _could_ have teased him about it (it was a "blunder" which she might have "reproach[ed]" him for). Earlier in the novel, Anne _persuades_ herself that Wentworth's words & actions show he doesn't love her, and now her internal persuasions are the opposite.
@@nineteenfortyeight6762 I agree that he doesn't want to let on to anyone that they had a prior relationship, and he's also downplaying his interest in Anne to himself, because he's still angry and doesn't consciously want anything to do with her (but is still drawn to her).
It is so valuable to me in my appreciation of Austen to have you point out all that makes her great. I have read and reread everything she's written so many times, and am so familiar with it, that I almost can't see what she's doing. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront of my mind, of all our minds!
The way Anne is going through series of strong, sometimes conflicting emotions after hearing Wentworth's words repeated to her, reminds me a bit of going through different stages of grief.
@@DrOctaviaCox You inspired me to watch the movie adaptation, but it doesn't do justice to the emotional turmoil experienced by the main character. I bought the book and I'm gonna read it. Thank you for making me curious of several of J.A.'s books I'd probably skip otherwise.
I have just finished reading the book today , and given the fact that the vast majority of my acquaintance isn't really fond of literature(consequently discussions on this subject are either avoided or one-sided) , it is nice to find channels like yours that discuss such masterpieces as Jane Austen's works .You have earned yourself a new subscriber ! Please keep up with this excellent content and if you have the time i think you'll be really interested in checking greek literature.My country has produced some fine pieces of work that i believe would be of some interest to you!❤️
Many thanks indeed! Much appreciated. As it happens I am writing an article on 19th century English Romantic responses to Alexander Pope's translation of Homer's _Iliad_ (Robert Southey, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and William Wordsworth). They were obsessed with Greek Literature in the Long-C18th!
I will have to look into that Greek Literature. I am learning Greek right now and that might help further cement the language even more. I also agree that I don't have many friends that have read jane Austen's books so I do not have anybody to talk with and discuss the novels with.
Anne and Captain Wentworth have so many missed opportunities. Though Captain Wentworth does blame Anne for having been persuaded by Lady Russell for breaking off their engagement, he turns out to be his own worst enemy, because he persuaded *himself* that Anne would not have renewed their correspondence and thus their engagement when he returned in "the year 8" and thought about writing to her. It's a wonder they ever do manage to reconcile!
I love Persuasion the most of Austen's novels! I love all the thinking, the thoughts as a way to move the story forward. I love how Wentworth and Anne relate through overhearing conversation or by observation rather than conversation--the power of the internal dialogue was so striking, so emotional.
I find this novel so exquisitely painful. Your explanation of her internal dialogue and the interplay of feeling and trying to talk herself out of the feelings explains why. Now, I need tp go back and read it again, especially the ending where she claims that it was all for the best. Do I believe she really believes that? I don't know.
I love this question. I think in a way she believes it is best because it makes her safe from fully investing herself in renewing their relationship. Even though most of her (obviously) loves him, there is part of her that wants to be rejected right away and spared further pain. That's what I've always thought.
I think that for 8 years, Anne had been dwelling on thoughts of her lost love, on what he had thought about her, or whether he had thought about her at all. Also, more importantly, what would he think if they should ever meet again. Now they have, now she knows what he thinks of her, and so, consequently, this should make her happy.
This is my favorite Austen novel, and very much underrated! I really get Anne as a character and relate to her a lot. I also relate to Elinor from Sense and Sensibility, and find her and Anne to be very similar characters
Thank you, Dr. Cox! This is the only Austen novel I haven't read, and I look forward to it now. I have tried, with no success, to persuade my "Bridgerton" fanatic friends how silly, boring and shallow that series is, especially compared to even the less masterful Austen adaptations for film and television, let alone the novels. Thanks again!
Oh, yes. I did watch the first season, but won’t bother with any more of it. The only interesting things about it were the surreal aspects, making it more like a fairy tale. There was some artistry in that. Nothing of the period is reflected there. No real human interactions; it’s all cloying cliches. If all you’re looking for is diversion and titillation, feel free to go for it. But it’s not for me.
This is really grand. Thank you. These are precisely the feelings, even perceptions, that wash over the reader while reading this unusual Austen novel.
I studied literature for so many years before I taught it for 18 years. I miss both the studying and the teaching of it. (I do not miss all the rest of the job - except for my magical fellow teachers, and a the students, and the smell of the textbooks, ....Okay. I hated administrators and Karen/parents. The rest was lovely.)
I now realize I just enjoy Austen and others’ works, but have never considered how they create their magic. It’s re-opened a whole new dimension for me, thanks. It reminds me of the very little discussion we had in middle school 50 years ago on writing, like the elements of plot, dialogue, setting, characterization, chronology and foreshadowing, etc. I just wanted more of this analysis and discussion, but there never was any, even in high school and university, where they’re just thrilled when students can write a correct sentence at all.
Hello, recent subscriber; I have really enjoyed your deep dives into Jane Austen's novels. The thing I love about her writing, despite the changes in language conventions and usage, is her ability to speak convincingly to me, an older white male; I am now 60 and as a 'convicted over-thinker.' relate so much to Anne's inner dialogue. This has deepened my appreciation of Jane's work. Yes, my daughter has accused me of having a bit of a crush on miss Austen. Kind regards B
What a wonderful find! I recently reread three of Jane Austen's novels, and finding your discussions has enriched my understanding and appreciation enormously.
Sir Walter Elliot is one of many fictional baronets who appear in English literature and Jane Austen tells us that his family had been baronets since the first year of Charles II, who became king in 1660. In commentary on Jane Austen’s novels baronets are sometimes dismissed as small fry because a baronetcy is the lowest hereditary title. However, many baronets belonged to ancient landed families and owned very large estates. Moreover, baronets were often linked by marriage to people with higher titles, including some of the grandest families in the land. For example, in 1797 a baronet named Sir John Menzies married Lady Charlotte Murray, the eldest daughter of the Duke of Atholl, whereas the first wife of the Duke of Roxburghe (another contemporary of Jane Austen) was the daughter of a baronet. Furthermore, Kitty, the Countess of Carnarvon who died in 1813 and lived at Highclere Castle (which is better known as the location of ‘Downton Abbey’), was the daughter of the eldest son of a baronet.
I really enjoyed watching this presentation. I have always seen an uncanny similarity between Anne Elliot and Clarissa Dalloway. Until today, I have not come across anyone who agreed with me and so assumed that I was probably wrong. Anne's musings always remind me of Clarissa's. Thank you for this posting - it has made my day! Judy
I do believe Wentworth's comment about Anne being altered was spoken out of concern for her, but Mary wouldn't have conveyed that sentiment. This is Austen's genius to throw us off the scent as to Wentworth's feelings. Wentworth still loved her, but assumed Anne was no longer in love with him. Wentworth and Anne both believe the other has 'moved on.' Anne persuades herself that if Wentworth had been affected by losing her, he'd be altered too. I believe that Wentworth was referring to her spirit, for he would have remembered her as happy and in love. Anne has surely been spiritually altered having lived for eight years with the pain of a lost love, not to mention the treatment she's been subjected to by her vain family. As Anne regains her confidence and hope, her spirit is revitalized. At the end of the novel, she argues with Harville that women are less likely to forget, which is a justification for her altered state.
Persuasion is my favorite next to Pride and Prejudice. I love Anne Elliot silent strength. I love her nature, it almost feels like Elizabeth Bennett in her 40s. Although she was 27/28, she had an old soul.
At the end of the novel, Capt. Wentworth describes himself, in opposition to what Mary says about him, as being unable to see Anne as being changed, as being other than the beautiful woman he thought her. The reader can interpret this in a number of ways. Was he just really unaware of his own responses? Did he believe himself? Ultimately, it doesn't matter because by the end of the novel Wentworth has, in my view, remembered and reconnected to his former feelings. What is most remarkable is that Anne, I believe, really fully sees what has happened to Capt. Wentworth. She fully accepts the journey he takes; she could have been put off by it, but the depth of her love makes it inevitable that she accepts it.
I am so thrilled that I got to know this channel, the content is fascinating and really eye opening to character interactions while focusing on the language and inner-dialogue.
I really love these in depth videos you do of these novels. When I was in highschool my English teacher would do this with books and it is some of my favorite memories of highschool. Thank you for making these videos!
I made it a goal to read all of Austen's novels this year and I have read 4 so far. Until this year I had only ever read Pride and Prejudice. I am enjoying watching your videos as I finish each book.
Late comment here, but I'm going to assert that Mary probably fibbed about the actual wording and ungallant intent of Captain Wentworth's comment that Anne had altered to the point he would not have recognized her. I doub't he would have said anything overly negative about Anne to her own sister whom he just met, even if he was still hurt. Mary wanted to turn the conversation with Anne to her own praise, and diminishing Anne raised Mary up in her own mind.
I think Mary reported Wentworth's statement accurately, although perhaps not its tone. Mary's passive aggressive attitude toward Anne is frequently in evidence, and I believe she reported the remark, fully aware of how painful it would be for Anne to hear. Mary says many cruel things to her sister in this fashion.
Status. I think it's nothing more edifying than that. When he was younger he wanted money (hence his first marriage). Then, once he was wealthy, he wanted the status and estate etc of inheriting the baronetcy and Kellynch (it turns out he seems to have some of "the Elliot pride" after all). He only makes friends again with the Elliots when he hears rumours that Sir Walter is likely to marry again (to Mrs Clay), and so possibly have a son and so disinherit him. Marrying Anne would mean that he could be closer to Sir Walter indefinitely and so continue to keep Sir Walter away from any future wives.
Thank you so much Dr. Cox! Persuasion has always been my favorite of Jane Austen’s novels because of Anne’s strength and kindness despite her loneliness and legitimate heartache . Anne’s sensitivity and tendency to be harsh with herself are qualities I think many of us relate to. When you speak of the action of the novel, that is helpful; I’ve always felt the power of small moments in the book that I don’t believe any other writer could have invested with so much feeling and significance. When Frederick lifts her tiny tyrannical nephew off of her back and frees her from his grasp, I’ve tried to read that to friends & family as one of my favorite passages. It’s hard to explain why it’s so powerful. It’s an act of liberation, of kindness, of friendship. It’s the same when he helps her into the carriage after their long walk.These simple actions obviously are written in a way that conveys their meaning Thank you for your beautiful illumination/interpretation of her work!
Two points: a) with a father, and an elder and a younger sister who each think the world of themselves and think that the world owes them a living, how is it that Anne Elliot doesn't think the same way, and is such a likeable character? b) Captain Wentworth does NOT say that Anne is "so altered he should not have known (her) again" - it is Mary who tells Anne that Captain Wentworth said this - and Mary is not exactly a reliable witness to anything the main object of which is not Mary (and then only if it is flattering to herself): "Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me......" Anne, however, has not the self-confidence to doubt Mary's words and this passage is followed by Anne thinking first of her own reaction to what was said and then imagining what Frederick Wentworth must have been feeling when allegedly he said the words.
Excellent point. Mary is - as you say - not a reliable witness or reporter. In terms of understanding Anne's thinking here, though, I do think it is worth observing that she does not soften what she believes to be Wentworth's words - indeed, she makes them harder and more brutal.
Mary isn't reliable, but the narrator tells us that Wentworth did really say that: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
@@trembletea The words "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them" is the point, surely - Anne has already changed the words quoted by Mary ("..so altered he would not have known you" becomes, in Anne's mind, "Altered beyond his knowledge") in her initial reaction and further modifications (to her own disadvantage) would occur to her. In depends on emphasis: placing the emphasis on the verb "used" gives it a very different meaning from emphasising the auxillary "had". And to think that when I first read this novel (aged 19) I was disappointed - I thought that it was (very high-class, wonderfully written) Mills and Boon-ish; how wrong can one be.
Anne had already acknowledged to herself that Captain Wentworth did not look worse than he had before. And she had concluded previously that 1. her only love would be Wentworth and 2. that she had changed in her looks, and not for the better. I wonder if she knew how much being loved and respected by someone worth had previously enhanced her appearance.
This is slightly off-topic, but I would love your comments on young women leaving home. In every novel except Emma, the heroines leave their family home, either by necessity (S&S, Mansfield Park) or for pleasure. In P&P, Jane gets a winter in London, Elizabeth a tour of Derbyshire, Lydia-- Brighton! In Persuasion, Anne comes to life as she travels. In Northanger Abbey, Catherine's pleasure travels take up almost the entire book. Even Emma, in the excursion to Box Hill, gets a vestigial voyage from home. But I wonder if Emma's claim she will never marry isn't putting the best face on her realization that she can't take the normal steps away from home-- in spite of having a loving sister 16 miles away in London. (As you know, the book starts with the marriage of a woman who had to leave home as a governess and includes three other marriages of young women who get engaged while traveling.) The young women who sit placidly at home waiting for Mr. Right (Anne DeBourgh, Elizabeth Elliot) are still sitting at the of their books. Just wonder if you have any thoughts about this.
You are making me think... Do you think that perhaps one of the reasons Jane Austen had for choosing this lack of actual dialogue/speech/conversation/spoken words is that Anne Elliot had been persuaded by words, incessant, pervasive, "gentle" reproaches by Lady Russell to break off the engagement? That incessant nagging has basically silenced Anne.
And perhaps because no-one listens to her when she does speak? A telling, very sad, line comes when they are walking to Winthrop, and Anne asks a question about the route, "But nobody heard, or, at least, nobody answered her" (ch.10). I think Anne might feel that she herself is the only person who will listen to her.
@@DrOctaviaCox Indeed. her family doesn't listen when it comes to retrechning, she is not wanted in Bath, she is sent to Uppercross without really having any say in it. She tried to warn Elizabeth about Mrs Clay and "She spoke, and seemed only to offend." The first time in the Musgrove's house they ask her things about her family and don'T even wait for her to answer! Anne is admirable. The way she stays so sane and reasonable all the time. I would be inclined to scream and kick ;)
She was very young at the time and was probably in the habit of taking Lady Russell's opinions seriously, so it seems to me very natural that she let herself be persuaded to break off the engagement. Wentworth, if he had been perfectly just and reasonable, should have taken this into account and not been so judgemental. But he's a real person, not a perfect one!
Late response, but I have much respect for Anne for letting go of blame and anger for Mrs. Russell, and for herself. In an family where she has no emotional support, Mrs. Russell, her beloved mother's dear friend who loves Anne in turn like a daughter, is all Anne has besides her own internal compass. To me Anne's comment at the end that she doesn't blame Mrs. Russell but would not act as she did is one of the healthiest ways a character have dealt with parental figure's human flaws.
As far as Anne deciding ahead of time that her youth and bloom were gone, don't forget that her father's fixation on youth, beauty, and physical appearances had already rubbed her nose in this daily during those 8 years. We have many many instances throughout the book of his critical comments on her appearance.
the internal dialogue you elucidate reminds me of Mrs. Ramsay's internal dialogue regarding how she has ordered her married life, almost like V. Woolf accidetally imitated Austen.
The other thing is that Mary's memory of the language used by Capt. Wentworth may not have been exact. It is Mary's perception that Wentworth wasn't gallant towards Anne, although all other reports are that he was charming. Also, Mary may have simply misunderstood Wentworth since she isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Mary is harmless or not deliberately harmful, and her retelling of her own perception of Wentworth's speech may have been imprecise.
Through my obvious modern lens, I’ve thought Wentworth saying she was so altered could be read as a positive; as in, maybe he viewed her as passive & cold when she was younger & now she’s more confident, independent-minded, & mature. But I realized Anne wouldn’t view it as a positive. Regarding the line about her not caring what he thinks of her: If one can’t control something (she can’t influence what he thinks of her), one does have control over deciding not to care (opting out, deciding to respond with apathy, even if feelings have yet to be congruent with thoughts).
Very interesting analysis!! Your videos really help with the preparation of the C2 English exam. Have you considered to launch a podcast? It would be very convenient for many to listen while doing other activities. Thank you!
Thank you, LAU - I'm very pleased that you find my videos helpful. That's a great suggestion about podcasting - I've also thought about writing an audiobook.
Thank you, Isabella. Yes, I think so - Wentworth's self-persuasions are as important as Anne's in the novel (it's just that we see much less of his "internal persuasions" (ch.22)).
@@DrOctaviaCox I don't know, I think he blurted out his genuine initial response to seeing her: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot." At the same time, the fact that his reaction is immediately followed by the sentence, "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot" does suggest that he is not looking at her impartially, but through his anger.
Wentworth simply remembers the pain of his first rejection by Anne, as well as the eight years of suppressed longing that he has felt. That would explain the harshness in his remark . That's what it seems like to me; speaking as a man and putting myself in his position. Wentworth isn't perfect. He has his faults.
Hi! One of my favourite episode is the "long walk" to Winthrop in chapter 10. "Her pleasure in the walk MUST arise from the excercise and the day, from the view of the last smiles of the year upon the tawny leaves and withered hedges, and from repeating to herself some few of the thousand poetical descriptions extant of autumn, that season of peculiar and inexhaustible influence on the mind of taste and tenderness, that season which had drawn from every poet, worthy of being read, some attempt at description, or some lines of feeling". You can feel how hard she's trying to persuade herself not to think of her ex fiance flirting in front of her with another girl. It's even a bit amusing, when you realize it's clearly not working. "Anne could not immediately fall into a quotation again. The sweet scenes of autumn were for a while put by, unless some tender sonnet, fraught with the apt analogy of the declining year with declining happiness, and the images of youth and hope, and spring, all gone together, blessed her memory".
Fabulous quotation! And yes exactly - Anne is trying (and failing) to live by the advice she gives to Captain Benwick, that literature should be used “to rouse and fortify the mind by the highest precepts” (ch.11). But her literary meditations are neither rousing her spirits nor fortifying her mind against her (understandable) melancholy. As the narrative voice wryly observes, “she had been eloquent on a point in which her own conduct would ill bear examination”.
What did you think of the snarky almost mean description of Dick. I was laughing and quite amused at how awful her thoughts were about him. She is quite funny throughout the book. For example her sister Mary's spoiled antics. Not to mention her father's and sister Elizabeth conceited entitled snobbery. I love your analysis of the books, makes me think more. Thanks.
P. S. Her description of Dick Musgrove is quite remarkable. I think it might be a comment on the way that people choose to memorialise those who die in military service.
@@DrOctaviaCox wow that seems like a harsh eulogy. Lol. Wonder what people would have said about me back then. But Persuasion is definitely my favorite. Ofcourse I live them all, except. Sanditon although I just saw the TV version, so that's really not fair.
Thank you so much for this analysis! I always wondered about the title of this one. It's so different from Austin's other novels. Why do you think Austen described Anne and Wentworth's original relationship as a sort of fling out of boredom and youth, when they have such a long lasting and deep connection with each other?
I am really a big fan of your lectures, although they sometimes make me feel stupid. Listening to your explanations makes me realize how 'naive' I was during my previous readings of the books, in which I was mainly concerned with the story and clearly missed many things.
Every time I read Mary's report of what Cpt. Wentworth supposedly said about Anne, I wonder how much Mary parapharased; somehow I doubt that she quoted him verbatim. That would mean, I think, that Anne's making CW's quote sound even harsher in her own musings is maybe not even in line with Wentworth's own thoughts (like a broken telephone sort of deal), much less what he would venture to say out loud. I always imagine he might have said something along of the lines of "she has changed some since we last conversed" and Mary went and added her own spice in the retelling, in her own obnoxiously oblivious style, lol. It also gets me that, in her self-persuasions, Anne is continually trying to negotiate convincing herself that C. Wentworth rightfully detests her with protecting his character and portraying his motivations in the best light TO HERSELF! (i.e. he hates me as he should but he's not hateful about it because he's a gentleman and a good man)
I tried reading Fanny Burney and was just bored to tears and annoyed. The repetition seemed sheer endless to me and the plot progressed at the pace of an arthritic snail. One heroine just stumbling through the story, meeting one rapey ahole after the other and saying "pray, sir, let me go" for 700 pages. The end. This is probably an unfair summary, but that's the impression that lingered with me. Jane Austen? Never a dull moment. I am completely on her side regarding the frustration with the "novel" as a concept way back when.
This is a really interesting point. Early in the novel we are told that Anne was "persuaded to believe the engagement a wrong thing", principally by Lady Russell. I think the text encourages us to interpret that Lady Russell's most effective persuasive technique, "caution", was to convince Anne that it was for _Wentworth's_ "good", rather than her own, that the engagement be broken: "Such opposition, as these feelings produced, was more than Anne could combat. Young and gentle as she was, it might yet have been possible to withstand her father's ill-will, though unsoftened by one kind word or look on the part of her sister; but Lady Russell, whom she had always loved and relied on, could not, with such steadiness of opinion, and such tenderness of manner, be continually advising her in vain. She was persuaded to believe the engagement a wrong thing: indiscreet, improper, hardly capable of success, and not deserving it. But *it was not a merely selfish caution* , under which she acted, in putting an end to it. *Had she not imagined herself consulting his good, even more than her own, she could hardly have given him up* . The belief of being prudent, and self-denying, principally for his advantage, was her chief consolation, under the misery of a parting, a final parting..." (ch.4) Lady Russell knows Anne well enough to realise this. And (to me) implies a certain underhand sneakiness in Lady Russell. I think Austen's use of the word "imagined" here is crucial.
7:55 These girls' fashion look very much like ancient Greece, especially the hair styles; a little Googling confirms my suspicion. 21:54 Does "should not have known you again" mean that he does not want to know her again *OR* that he she has physically changed (presumably for the worse), and that he barely recognized her?
Let me know what you think. I’d love to hear from you.
Did he really mean it? That she was so altered when he was still in love with her? Why would he lie - 28 is very early to lose your bloom lol - I’m holding onto mine till 70
@@kumbimukaro6343 He says it to be vindictive, in my opinion. He's angry at her so it's a dig at her. He probably knew it would get back to her. I love Persuasion, but I don't like Captain Wentworth's treatment of Anne when they meet again after many years apart.
@patty I can see your point. There’s a pervasive cultural believe that a romantic pursuit is at the same time an adversary. 100’s years later it’s still present.
@@pattysolson8434 I'm not sure that I completely agree with you.
Captain Wentworth had been hurt by Anne being persuaded to break up with him. He had been hurt deeply, yet he had never in the eight years met another woman who matched his (idealised, imagined) memory of Anne Elliott. It is possible that he speaks the complete truth that the real Anne Elliott, eight years older, could not match his remembered ideal.
Further, the authorial voice (or possibly Lady Russell) have already told us that the eight years had "not been kind" to her features.
If we accept that present day Anne Elliott could never match the Idealized memories, even if she had not deteriorated as the author/Lady Russell tells us that she has, then, possibly, Wentworth is being completely honest.
Just a thought!
Persuasion is one of Austen’s best novels but some of the things she says in the book should not be taken at face value. For instance Anne Elliot is the 27-year-old daughter of a baronet but has never seen her father in the company of nobility. Hence people conclude that baronets, the lowest ranking holders of an hereditary title, were kept at arm’s length by people with grander titles. But in real life it would have been extraordinary for a 27-year-old baronet’s daughter to have never seen her father in the company of earls and viscounts etc because they moved in the same social circles. Presumably, Austen thus wanted to indicate that Sir Walter Elliot was side-lined because he was such a pompous fool. The fact that he was a baronet was not the issue.
Furthermore, Anne’s elder sister Elizabeth is obsessed with the idea of marrying a baronet or someone with baronet’s blood. Hence people assume that the daughters of baronets were too insignificant to marry dukes etc but that was not the case. For instance, in 1810 Anna Maria Dashwood married the Marquess of Ely and one of her contemporaries, Kitty, Countess of Carnarvon, was the daughter of a baronet’s eldest son. Moreover, Emily, Countess Cowper (a leading figure at Almack’s, the exclusive high society club in London) was the granddaughter of baronets.
I think what I like so much about Anne Elliott, Elinor Dashwood, and Fanny Price is their efforts to master themselves and their thoughts. The postmodern mind is consumed with “following your heart,” but seeing heroines who try to master their emotions and govern their conduct is part of their enduring appeal.
It’s like: Who cares if the heart wants what the heart wants? - Get over it, dammit! Reason your way to serenity.
Yes. So many of Austen's protagonists are such reasonable women! I love that they are. It's not that their hearts don't matter, I think--it's that they are careful with their hearts, more like we ought to be today.
I agree. Marianne always annoyed me with her dramaqueenyness. By all means be sad, but don't wallow endlessly. A little wallowing is permissible, but dramatically starving yourself sick and hanging out in the rain is ott, thanks.
It's worth noting, I think, that these are the heroines whose minds we see in conflict - we witness their internal struggles, which the people in their environments are largely unaware of.
♡Yes!♡
I feel that much of Anne’s belief that she is past her bloom is due to the inexcusable narcissism of her father. Clearly, she is an attractive woman, as seen by Mr. Elliott’s double take in Lyme. I think there is some parental persuasion to shore up the insecurity of any woman advancing in years. Don’t we all wonder what our high school sweethearts will think of us at a reunion? Of course. Now, add in a father making constant cutting remarks about our skin tone, complexion, hairstyle, personality, and basic worth to the family, and is there any wonder she readily believed Wentworth could hardly know her (for the old hag she had become)? Not to be crude, but Sir Walter is an ass.
And so so vain!!!! Admiral Croft's observation on the number of mirrors in the house is so amusingly spot on.
The most important turning point in Persuasion is actually the walk to Winthrop, while Charles and Henrietta visit their aunt and cousins, Mary, Anne Louisa and Wentworth are left on the top of the hill. Louisa and Wentworth wander off and Anne hears some of their conversation. Louisa eventually tells Wentworth of Charles wanting to marry Anne and her refusal. This is the moment Wentworth’s beliefs about Anne are stopped in their tracks and he begins to question them. Anne is preoccupied with other aspects of that chat and so are the readers, but his behaviour changes almost immediately. Louisa expects him to respond to her assertiveness but he is actually distracted. Louisa actually has to escalate her assertiveness to get his attention which explains why she jumps off the Cobb the second time.
Hi. I have enjoyed your comment. In Pride and Prejudice the snobbish upstart Bingley sisters criticise Elizabeth Bennet for walking to Netherfield and yet in Persuasion other members of the landed gentry likewise walk a long way.
I wholeheartedly agree with you! In the 1990s film version of "Persuasion", Ciaran Hinds plays this change of heart, at that moment, beautifully. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland
The part where you mention Mary’s oblivion toward inflicting a peculiar wound on Anne has so much of Austen’s irony packed into it, since Mary always imagines herself the target of injury from others.
Ha! - yes indeed Brenda.
She's so fabulously insufferable! And - as you suggest - almost unable to conceive that someone might be injured who isn't her. Mary is aware enough to know that Wentworth was "not [being] very gallant" about Anne, and yet she still told Anne, unasked, what he had said (ch.7).
The very first time readers encounter Mary we see her in all her glory! I can’t resist quoting it:
Mary “was very prone to add to every other distress that of fancying herself neglected and ill-used … on Anne's appearing, [Mary] greeted her with-
‘So, you are come at last! I began to think I should never see you. I am so ill I can hardly speak. I have not seen a creature the whole morning!’
‘I am sorry to find you unwell,’ replied Anne. ‘You sent me such a good account of yourself on Thursday!’
‘Yes, I made the best of it; I always do: but I was very far from well at the time; and I do not think I ever was so ill in my life as I have been all this morning: very unfit to be left alone, I am sure. Suppose I were to be seized of a sudden in some dreadful way, and not able to ring the bell! ...’
Anne said what was proper, and enquired after her husband. ‘Oh! Charles is out shooting. I have not seen him since seven o'clock. He would go, though I told him how ill I was. He said he should not stay out long; but he has never come back, and now it is almost one. I assure you, I have not seen a soul this whole long morning...’” (ch.5)
I can't hear Mary without picturing her as a younger version of Mrs. Bennet... My nerves!
Mary is SO revolting she seems ridiculous....
BUT
Thinking back I remember SO many "frenemies" in my past I should have dumped but was too nice to do so...
Austen REALLY HELPS WHEN A NICE PERSON IS TRYING TO WALK AWAY...BECAUSE WE ARE FREE TO DO SO NOW....
It's interesting that Anne accepts the self-involved Mary's report as accurate. She certainly should know from experience that Mary's viewpoint is woefully skewed.
When Anne reconfigures Wentworth’s “so altered” statement in her thoughts, she is also increasing its harshness, I think, in an attempt to more successfully quash her own emotional hopes that she has been trying to “reason herself out of.” “Altered beyond his knowledge” speaks of an utter, irredeemable disconnect between them, wherein even memories of their former relationship are obliterated. She is telling herself, much to her own misery, that anything they had, anything she flattered herself they might find again, is completely finished, that the flutter of hope she felt in spite of herself at seeing him again was, indeed, only a ridiculous self-deception. Another recurrent note in “Persuasion” is that Anne’s life has led her to chronically underestimate her own abilities and her own appeal. Charles wanted her, Captain Bennick wants her, the Musgroves clearly adore her as do Admiral and Mrs. Wentworth. . . Yet none of this seems to influence her own self-image as a cipher-a self-mage her narcissistic father and sister, and even the well-meaning Lady Russell, have relentlessly imposed upon her.
Great point, Mindi. Absolutely. Anne takes Mary's comment, "'You were so altered he should not have known you again", and reworks into the much more brutal, "Altered beyond his knowledge". "Anne fully submitted, in silent, deep mortification". It's as if she wants to make her own "mortification" deeper.
Indeed, Anne is the victim of narcissistic abuse. I was abused in a similar manner, and I lost all confidence in myself and my abilities. The film version from the 1990s starring Ciaran Hinds portrays this situation very well. I also think that Lady Russell is one of the villains of this story. She is hell-bent on destroying Anne's happiness at every turn, and she works hard to keep Anne humble. Her family and Lady Russell benefit from keeping Anne down because a humble Anne will not want to rebel against the subservient role that she plays in their lives. She is taken for granted by all. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland
Edit: Captain Wentworth seems to see Anne's situation for what it really is, and he sees that very quickly. I give him a lot of credit for that in spite of his initial bitterness towards her.
@@DrOctaviaCox I think her concern with the alteration remark is clearly a projection of her own fears that she is 'past her prime' or a flower that is faded on the vine, that she's missed her chance and there's no hope of a satisfying resolution to her unmarried state. Note that it does not remotely occur to her that she may have grown into a maturity and presence that commands more interest from the object of her affections. She's just dragging herself down.
I find it interesting that even in the early 19th century, Austen understood "middle child syndrome."
@@PMabq Yes - think of the "elegant little woman" that Mrs Smith sees.
Anne Elliot and Cpt Wentworth hear each other as they speak to the other people in the group, they attend to each other although they do not converse.
Absolutely - they are very conscious of each other, even though they avoid direct conversation (until they get to Bath). For instance, the scene when - without talking to each other - Wentworth removes one of the Musgrove children who is climbing over Anne's back:
"The younger boy, a remarkable stout, forward child, of two years old ... began to fasten himself upon her, as she knelt, in such a way that, busy as she was about Charles, she could not shake him off. She spoke to him, ordered, entreated, and insisted in vain. Once she did contrive to push him away, but the boy had the greater pleasure in getting upon her back again directly.
"Walter," said she, "get down this moment. You are extremely troublesome. I am very angry with you."
"Walter," cried Charles Hayter, "why do you not do as you are bid? Do not you hear your aunt speak? Come to me, Walter, come to cousin Charles."
But not a bit did Walter stir.
In another moment, however, she found herself in the state of being released from him; some one was taking him from her, though he had bent down her head so much, that his little sturdy hands were unfastened from around her neck, and he was resolutely borne away, before she knew that Captain Wentworth had done it." (Persuasion, ch.9).
@@DrOctaviaCox This is a telling incident, but of course it is of a kind that a thoughtful person might render to anyone who was bothered in this way by a small child, and therefore not necessarily a mark of particular gallantry or regard for Anne. This shows how creatively Austen creates ambiguity in this book.
Good thing that Anne is not a low-talker. She needs to be overheard.
@@DrOctaviaCox I love that scene. It speaks volumes about Wentworth's character and also how he quietly, and without fuss, attends to Anne's well-being when no-one else can be bothered to.
@@gkelly941 Similar to Capt Wentworth seeing to it that Anne has a ride in the Croft's gig coming home from the Hayters' farm. Yes, it is common decency and human compassion, but it also shows that he is "tuned in" to Anne's needs. Anne is not sure how to take it herself.
Persuasion - my favourite Austen, Anne Elliot, my favourite heroine.
When I was first reading through Austen, without any critical context or adaptations in my mind, Anne was the character I related to the most. I have a family member like Mary. I have a tendency to doubt myself. I loved the story and it’s mixture of comedy and malaise. I am very disappointed with all of the adaptations and how somber they are and how they portray Anne as depressed and sullen. The adaptations are always so grey. In the books, I read her more as contemplative and just trying to accept her life as it is, albeit with regrets about her past.
Anne is probably my favorite Austen protagonist, followed probably by Fanny in Mansfield Park and Eleanor in Sense and Sensibility. I never realized the reason why. As I grew older, I realize that I was drawn to them because they are strong, quiet protagonists with what I see as good, level judgment. Their internal dialogue is really insightful. Too often it's easy to assume that a person has to be loud to have a strong character. The quieter Austen characters clearly had a lot of thoughts and opinions and judgments. They didn't need to be super loud or super witty in order to be smart and strong. In Austen, anyway, the right people trust their judgments and know to listen when they talk. Wentworth certainly trusts Anne's insight. I don't know that she trusts herself as much as he trusts her. I love Captain Wentworth for showing that the right people know to listen when you talk--there will be those people who will want to listen, and they are the right people for you.
Yes, I've noticed that type of quiet character with strong opinions and feelings in her books too. Jane Fairfax is one other, and for men of course Darcy, and to a lesser degree Mr. Knightley. I suspect she based them all on one person she knew who was beloved to her and taught her important lessons in life. Jane Fairfax, Fanny and Anne too I think, also are all described with 'light' eyes.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. I feel the change is an interior change not just in her appearance or " glow". When she was persuaded when she was 19 by Lady Russell and her family to break off her engagement with Wentworth, she didn't have the personality she now has at the age of 27. I believe Wentworths' not recognizing her as the same girl he knew is correct, she is not the same person. Her ability to clearly see how pathetic her father and sisters are shows how her judgment has changed.
The first change that I see with Captain Wentworth towards Anne Elliot is when Louisa Musgrove tells him that she wishes Anne had accepted Charles Musgrove's proposal so he wouldn't have married Mary. This sparked his interest in Anne again and has him reflecting why Anne would not have accepted an offer of a man who is wealthy ( or will inherit a tidy fortune). This piece of information gets him thinking and he wants to know how long ago this happened. This shows his interest in Anne and it would show to him of her continuing interest in him. This is before the seashore where her bloom appeared to have a second chance.
Unfortunately it doesn’t show her continued interest in him until she can tell him herself, instead it furthers his prejudice against her when Louisa says she thinks it was lady Russels doing. When this time It was 100% Anne.
Am I the only one that is brought to tears when reading these passages in Persuasion where Anne’s internal monologues are so beautifully put to words by Austen? I think perhaps if you’ve been an Anne all of your life you feel the depth and accuracy of Austen’s portrayal of that harsh, ruthless inner voice that is so difficult to silence. You try to reason with it but in the end what can you do but accept its truth? You aren’t pretty or attractive and never will be. You don’t fit in and you would rather hide from people and situations that make you feel this way, often escaping into the world of imagination. The older you get, the less you have any hope this will change. You must find a way to live your life knowing you will never be amongst those blessed with love or a relationship.
In fact, luckily for Anne, Wentworth is a true kindred spirit who learns again to value her inner beauty to the point where it seems to animate her outwardly in his eyes. She is very fortunate he was this kind of man. They are very hard to find. I certainly found it impossible and when I read Persuasion I feel Austen herself did also. How else can she so accurately and heart-wrenchingly show Anne’s harsh inner thoughts if she had not experienced such self-dialogue herself?
We all wish to be Elizabeth Bennett but I know I’m more of an Anne Elliot and perhaps Austen was as well. Our Captain Wentworts never appeared for us. We had to find other ways to make life fulfilling and happy. In my mid 40’s I made the decision to become a single mother by choice and my little daughters are the light of my life. I’m so lucky and blessed this was an option for me as it never could have been for Anne Elliott or Jane Austen. Yet the pain is there and never really goes away which is why I’m crying silent tears as I listen to your analysis of these passages. What magnificent writing! And oh - how the heart can cry out when you acknowledge you are unimportant, quiet, sensitive, plain and unlovable!
I had always imagined he used this comment as a buffer from the hurt he still felt after all those years. He still keenly feels the rejection. Anne mirrors this 'buffer'; she still feels the annoyance at herself for being told to reject the man she loved and still loves. Mary is a manipulative little blighter, with this comment she exerts her dominance as the younger and only married sister because Anne is so well favoured by the party. Just my two penneth. I truly enjoy your videos. Thank you,
Thank you Moira - I'm so pleased you enjoy my videos.
I certainly think that Wentworth has convinced himself (that theme of 'persuasion' again) that he no longer feels anything for Anne. And that he wants to persuade himself that he has no interest in knowing her again.
@@DrOctaviaCox As usual for Jane... it's a good plot. Each novel varies but those 'emotions ' are well known to us us all. She was a very astute lady and knew how to captivate and draw her audience in. I love her without measure. Thanks for your reply. 🥳😊🤗
Anne Elliot is my favorite Austin character. It always came across to me, that she needed to have such a rich internal life, due to a lack of support from her family and friend(s.) What’s the point of speaking out loud, if you’re always wrong? She seems like such a lonely character.....
I was also thinking about how lonely Anne must have been. Nevertheless, she is kind and highly principled.
Compensating for external disapproval with an unexpectedly rich inner life reminds me of Valancy from The Blue Castle, one of my all-time favorite books
Anne is very accomplished, plays piano, speaks other languages. She’s gracious and kind. She’s definitely the superior woman to Miss Elliot.
@@jacky3580 perhaps even Mr. Darcy would call her accomplished. She is superior, indeed.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. Why? Because more than any other novel there is an almost tangible sexual tension between Anne and Captain Wentworth. Will they get together? Will they go their separate ways? There are so many impediments in their path. Will they overcome them? It makes you want to read to the end.
Because we don’t get to be in Mr. Wentworth’s head, this is hard to prove concretely, but I always thought that he was lying when he said Anne was ‘so altered he might not have recognized her’. I thought that (he thought) she was as beautiful as she was 8 years ago, if not more so, which made him angry at himself for still being attracted/having feelings because he was still bitter about the breakup. Thus he lashed out in a (successful) attempt to hurt Anne’s feelings, because there is no way he did not know that his words would make it back to Anne. As far as I’m concerned, if Anne really was worse looking as he claimed, Mr. Wentworth would have likely felt like he “won” the breakup, and been smug enough to make a bland and generically polite statement about her. Plus, the fact that multiple characters throughout the novel fall all over themselves for Anne indicates to me that Mr. Wentworth was being petty, and not truthful. This is just speculation, though.
I agree with you that Wentworth wasn't indifferent to Anne when he said those words, and that he was still angry at her (and perhaps with himself for still thinking of her, though I'm not sure he was self-aware enough to realize this). But I don't think he said those words with the intention of hurting Anne because of this passage: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot." So he did really think she was changed for the worse, or at least, that was his initial reaction, and he blurted it out without thinking that it would get back to Anne. Anger might have had something to do with that initial reaction, since the next sentence is, "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
Remember, Anne was very tired, she been up with a child with a broken bone because his mother is too selfish to tend him. Who among wouldn’t look a bit rough. Wentworth was being a bit of a brat too.
I am so glad I found this.🥰🥰 The perfect escape from the pandemic and all the uncertainty it brings
Thank you Tarah. Octavia
Anne is my favorite of Austen's heroines and Persuasion is my favorite of her works. This analysis was amazing and so lovely to watch!
Thank you for your kind words. It's very much appreciated - especially for such a loved text.
@@DrOctaviaCox I enjoy your analysis, but I could not have a favorite Austen book any more than a modern mother could have a favorite child. I love them all. But your commentaries let me see more about the craft that makes them so effective. And unlike other novelists of the nineteenth century, Austen does not rely on absurd ("Dickensian") coincidence or supernatural effects ("Jane, Jane") to resolve her plots.
What struck me while listening to this is that the progression of the main character's relationships seems to be when reason and feelings are congruent. Relationships in which feeling without reason predominate are perilous (Lydia Bennet - Marianne Dashwood) and relationships built only on reason (Charlotte) are equally to be rejected. In P&P Mr. Darcy was initially drawn to Elizabeth via his feelings against his reason.
Absolutely - balance is key.
These videos about Persuasion are so fascinating! Persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel, but dang if I didn't even notice that Anne and Wentworth almost never speak to each other! It's kinda funny, because I'm so outspoken and really insist on clear, open communication in my relationships with others, so I think it's fascinating that I am drawn to this book! I think I like how emotional it is. (I've always loved break-up songs, too... *shrugs*)
Anyway, about this video, I think the lack of dialogue really reinforces the idea and feeling of isolation that Anne has been experiencing over the last 8 years. She has family, but they don't understand her and she can't be open with them. She has been bearing the stress of her family finances since her mother's death. And her friend, Lady Russell, with whom she seems to have the most open relationship... well, she can't talk to her about Captain Wentworth. She's been keeping up with his military career over the years and I'm sure every time she read of a success of his (or any time his name was mentioned), she would have liked to have had someone to talk to about her regrets and sadness... but there hasn't been anyone she could open up to about him. She's had to push down her feelings and just internalize them for almost a decade. And how he's there in front of her? I definitely understand why she's not being terribly communicative. I think the lack of dialogue really reflects the emotional state Anne has been in for so long.
Thank you! Yes, definitely - she has learnt to rely on herself for emotional support. as she finds little outside of herself. She almost has to have both sides of a conversation with herself!
Really late thought, but upon rereading, the relative lack of direct dialogue also emphasized for me the depth of Anne's history with Frederick, and the depth of their hurt. I can imagine that they HAD spoken during the first courtship. All the micro-expressions Anne reads from his face and actions. Knowing the sound and rhythm of his steps. Their silence and non-interaction reflecting both their pain.
One of the most important decisions an actress playing Anne in a film adaptation of Persuasion must make is how to portray the reaction to that sentence. "Silent deep mortification" indeed. Thanks for these videos, Dr. Cox, I find them fascinating. I have read all the novels several times so now I have found another way to engage with them.
Thank you. I'm glad you are enjoying them!
I think Amanda Root managed this wonderfully in the 1995 movie. The direction emphasized her dejection in that moment, and I loved that she really was silent but clearly deeply mortified.
Ann’s father and sister frequently put her down for her looks she had heard them and believed that was what everyone must think after all she was 27 and single!
Given the characters of the two persons relaying Captain Wentworth's alleged remarks about Anne's appearance, I do not think we can be confident that the comment is accurately reported.
@@joannafink2278 Good point.
That's narcissistic abuse. They kept Anne down because Anne was useful to them as the spinster in the family. Anne took care of everybody and thought very little of herself. ~ Anastacia in Cleveland
Your breakdown of Anne’s thought processes are something that I will be sharing with my therapist to help them understand how internal monologging and analyzing and self-persuading I do.
I’ve known I resonate with Anne more than any of Austen’s other characters, and thanks to your explanations in this video, now I know why.
Thank you ❤️
Gosh - I'm very pleased that the video is helpful for you. Persuasion is such a wonderful depiction of a mind in action & in the process of thinking to itself.
Also the short sentences (she had seen him. they had met.) are almost musical in representing agitation and gasping
"She had seen him. They had met. They had been once more in the same room." This reads almost as stream-of-consciousness (as it would later be called).
I also appreciated Dr. Cox's remarks on the brevity of these statements. I think I tend to FEEL the effects of Austen's writing style, but I love listening to the analysis in order to have a more conscious, concrete understanding.
Thank you! Now I truly understand the power of Jane Austen's images, as they unfold in her book PERSUASION. I am a serious re-reader of the Novels I enjoy. PERSUASION is my very favorite Novel; and it has often brought me to tears when I reread it. Thank you for teaching the true depth of Austen's thinking and her capacity to communicate to the reader. Dr Roberta
At the end Anne lets Wentworth's comment go without comment. Was she thinking he was blind to her faded looks due to love or had he always felt that way? Had he lied about her changing so much he not knowing/recognizing her or was he trying to convince himself that she had faded because he was angry? He hadn't said the first comment to her and maybe didn't know she knew he had said it. It's interesting because Elizabeth, Emma or Mary Crawford would have teased him about it, but Anne enjoyed the compliment that he loves her and leaves it be. Her steady love and gratitude in this passage lead me to think they would have a steady long lasting relationship without big conflicts.
Yes, she lets it go without comment out loud, but the reader is privy to her thoughts about it. Wentworth is talking to Anne after they have reconciled:
"He [Wentworth's brother] enquired after you very particularly; asked even if you were personally altered, little suspecting that to my eye you could never alter."
Anne smiled, and let it pass. It was too pleasing a blunder for a reproach. It is something for a woman to be assured, in her eight-and-twentieth year, that she has not lost one charm of earlier youth; but the value of such homage was inexpressibly increased to Anne, by comparing it with former words, and feeling it to be the result, not the cause of a revival of his warm attachment." (ch.23)
So the reader does see that she _could_ have teased him about it (it was a "blunder" which she might have "reproach[ed]" him for). Earlier in the novel, Anne _persuades_ herself that Wentworth's words & actions show he doesn't love her, and now her internal persuasions are the opposite.
I thought he was just underplaying his interest in seeing her, to 3rd parties. Like, 'oh right, that's Anne, I guess. Didn't notice.'
@@nineteenfortyeight6762 I agree that he doesn't want to let on to anyone that they had a prior relationship, and he's also downplaying his interest in Anne to himself, because he's still angry and doesn't consciously want anything to do with her (but is still drawn to her).
It is so valuable to me in my appreciation of Austen to have you point out all that makes her great. I have read and reread everything she's written so many times, and am so familiar with it, that I almost can't see what she's doing. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront of my mind, of all our minds!
Thank you Elise! That's a very kind thing to say. Octavia
The way Anne is going through series of strong, sometimes conflicting emotions after hearing Wentworth's words repeated to her, reminds me a bit of going through different stages of grief.
That's a very tender way of thinking about it. Yes, Anne is trying to reconcile herself to what she thinks is lost forever.
@@DrOctaviaCox You inspired me to watch the movie adaptation, but it doesn't do justice to the emotional turmoil experienced by the main character. I bought the book and I'm gonna read it. Thank you for making me curious of several of J.A.'s books I'd probably skip otherwise.
It's my pleasure! Octavia
Dr. Cox, you are a masterful teacher; I love your enthusiasm and your insight is other worldly. Thank you for sharing your literary gifts with us.
Thank you very much indeed Sheila - that's very kind of you to say.
I have just finished reading the book today , and given the fact that the vast majority of my acquaintance isn't really fond of literature(consequently discussions on this subject are either avoided or one-sided) , it is nice to find channels like yours that discuss such masterpieces as Jane Austen's works .You have earned yourself a new subscriber ! Please keep up with this excellent content and if you have the time i think you'll be really interested in checking greek literature.My country has produced some fine pieces of work that i believe would be of some interest to you!❤️
Many thanks indeed! Much appreciated.
As it happens I am writing an article on 19th century English Romantic responses to Alexander Pope's translation of Homer's _Iliad_ (Robert Southey, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and William Wordsworth). They were obsessed with Greek Literature in the Long-C18th!
I will have to look into that Greek Literature. I am learning Greek right now and that might help further cement the language even more. I also agree that I don't have many friends that have read jane Austen's books so I do not have anybody to talk with and discuss the novels with.
Anne and Captain Wentworth have so many missed opportunities. Though Captain Wentworth does blame Anne for having been persuaded by Lady Russell for breaking off their engagement, he turns out to be his own worst enemy, because he persuaded *himself* that Anne would not have renewed their correspondence and thus their engagement when he returned in "the year 8" and thought about writing to her. It's a wonder they ever do manage to reconcile!
I love Persuasion the most of Austen's novels! I love all the thinking, the thoughts as a way to move the story forward. I love how Wentworth and Anne relate through overhearing conversation or by observation rather than conversation--the power of the internal dialogue was so striking, so emotional.
I find this novel so exquisitely painful. Your explanation of her internal dialogue and the interplay of feeling and trying to talk herself out of the feelings explains why. Now, I need tp go back and read it again, especially the ending where she claims that it was all for the best. Do I believe she really believes that? I don't know.
I love this question. I think in a way she believes it is best because it makes her safe from fully investing herself in renewing their relationship. Even though most of her (obviously) loves him, there is part of her that wants to be rejected right away and spared further pain. That's what I've always thought.
I think that for 8 years, Anne had been dwelling on thoughts of her lost love, on what he had thought about her, or whether he had thought about her at all. Also, more importantly, what would he think if they should ever meet again. Now they have, now she knows what he thinks of her, and so, consequently, this should make her happy.
This is my favorite Austen novel, and very much underrated! I really get Anne as a character and relate to her a lot. I also relate to Elinor from Sense and Sensibility, and find her and Anne to be very similar characters
Thank you, Dr. Cox! This is the only Austen novel I haven't read, and I look forward to it now. I have tried, with no success, to persuade my "Bridgerton" fanatic friends how silly, boring and shallow that series is, especially compared to even the less masterful Austen adaptations for film and television, let alone the novels. Thanks again!
Oh, yes. I did watch the first season, but won’t bother with any more of it. The only interesting things about it were the surreal aspects, making it more like a fairy tale. There was some artistry in that.
Nothing of the period is reflected there. No real human interactions; it’s all cloying cliches. If all you’re looking for is diversion and titillation, feel free to go for it. But it’s not for me.
Persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel and the next time I read it I will see it with a new eye. Thank-you! Very interesting video.
Excellent! - thank you.
I am so glad I have found this channel, thank you so much again for making these videos, they are so interesting and fascinating
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your support!
Fab name too.
Octavia
@@DrOctaviaCox thank you :)
This is really grand. Thank you. These are precisely the feelings, even perceptions, that wash over the reader while reading this unusual Austen novel.
I think that you deserver the highest praise for your work and excellent cultivation of your mind and sensitivity of your inner antennae.
Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. Octavia
Brilliant discussion. More please!
Recently, I took up the reading of Persuasion. You have helped me enormously to enjoy it more fully. Thank you.
I love Persuasion so much and this video was such a delight. Thank you so much.
Absolutely my pleasure! Octavia
I have been binging your videos, and I truly believe it has added to my mental health in a very good way
This book is my personal favorite of all of Austin’s writings. It exposes deep shared emotions within us all. I enjoyed hearing your analysis.
A wonderful book, I agree. I'm very glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for listening.
I studied literature for so many years before I taught it for 18 years. I miss both the studying and the teaching of it. (I do not miss all the rest of the job - except for my magical fellow teachers, and a the students, and the smell of the textbooks, ....Okay. I hated administrators and Karen/parents. The rest was lovely.)
Ha ha! Oh yes. The magical colleagues and students are wonderful. And the tedious bits... the less said about them the better! Octavia
I now realize I just enjoy Austen and others’ works, but have never considered how they create their magic. It’s re-opened a whole new dimension for me, thanks. It reminds me of the very little discussion we had in middle school 50 years ago on writing, like the elements of plot, dialogue, setting, characterization, chronology and foreshadowing, etc. I just wanted more of this analysis and discussion, but there never was any, even in high school and university, where they’re just thrilled when students can write a correct sentence at all.
Always love listening to your perspective on Austen's bottomless texts ❤️
Glad you enjoy it! Octavia
Hello, recent subscriber; I have really enjoyed your deep dives into Jane Austen's novels. The thing I love about her writing, despite the changes in language conventions and usage, is her ability to speak convincingly to me, an older white male; I am now 60 and as a 'convicted over-thinker.' relate so much to Anne's inner dialogue. This has deepened my appreciation of Jane's work. Yes, my daughter has accused me of having a bit of a crush on miss Austen.
Kind regards B
What a wonderful find! I recently reread three of Jane Austen's novels, and finding your discussions has enriched my understanding and appreciation enormously.
What a lovely comment. I'm so glad you've enjoyed my videos. Thanks for watching.
I don’t always follow the style rule of not beginning a sentence with And. It occasionally adds just the right emphasis.
Wow. This one really resonates! Thank you.
Sir Walter Elliot is one of many fictional baronets who appear in English literature and Jane Austen tells us that his family had been baronets since the first year of Charles II, who became king in 1660.
In commentary on Jane Austen’s novels baronets are sometimes dismissed as small fry because a baronetcy is the lowest hereditary title. However, many baronets belonged to ancient landed families and owned very large estates. Moreover, baronets were often linked by marriage to people with higher titles, including some of the grandest families in the land. For example, in 1797 a baronet named Sir John Menzies married Lady Charlotte Murray, the eldest daughter of the Duke of Atholl, whereas the first wife of the Duke of Roxburghe (another contemporary of Jane Austen) was the daughter of a baronet. Furthermore, Kitty, the Countess of Carnarvon who died in 1813 and lived at Highclere Castle (which is better known as the location of ‘Downton Abbey’), was the daughter of the eldest son of a baronet.
I really enjoyed watching this presentation. I have always seen an uncanny similarity between Anne Elliot and Clarissa Dalloway. Until today, I have not come across anyone who agreed with me and so assumed that I was probably wrong. Anne's musings always remind me of Clarissa's. Thank you for this posting - it has made my day! Judy
My second favourite novel; I enjoyed your deep analysis of this introspective aspect of the narrative in the book. Well done 👍🏾 ❤️🇨🇦
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I'm curious as to what your favorite novel is?
NARJIS AL-ARAJI My favourite is Pride and Prejudice 😊
@@korinemlbernard3256 ooohh that's really interesting. Do you like the herions in that order as well? 😄
I do believe Wentworth's comment about Anne being altered was spoken out of concern for her, but Mary wouldn't have conveyed that sentiment. This is Austen's genius to throw us off the scent as to Wentworth's feelings. Wentworth still loved her, but assumed Anne was no longer in love with him. Wentworth and Anne both believe the other has 'moved on.' Anne persuades herself that if Wentworth had been affected by losing her, he'd be altered too. I believe that Wentworth was referring to her spirit, for he would have remembered her as happy and in love. Anne has surely been spiritually altered having lived for eight years with the pain of a lost love, not to mention the treatment she's been subjected to by her vain family. As Anne regains her confidence and hope, her spirit is revitalized. At the end of the novel, she argues with Harville that women are less likely to forget, which is a justification for her altered state.
Persuasion is my favorite next to Pride and Prejudice. I love Anne Elliot silent strength. I love her nature, it almost feels like Elizabeth Bennett in her 40s. Although she was 27/28, she had an old soul.
At the end of the novel, Capt. Wentworth describes himself, in opposition to what Mary says about him, as being unable to see Anne as being changed, as being other than the beautiful woman he thought her. The reader can interpret this in a number of ways. Was he just really unaware of his own responses? Did he believe himself? Ultimately, it doesn't matter because by the end of the novel Wentworth has, in my view, remembered and reconnected to his former feelings. What is most remarkable is that Anne, I believe, really fully sees what has happened to Capt. Wentworth. She fully accepts the journey he takes; she could have been put off by it, but the depth of her love makes it inevitable that she accepts it.
I am so thrilled that I got to know this channel, the content is fascinating and really eye opening to character interactions while focusing on the language and inner-dialogue.
That's such a lovely compliment, thank you Sora.
I really love these in depth videos you do of these novels. When I was in highschool my English teacher would do this with books and it is some of my favorite memories of highschool.
Thank you for making these videos!
I made it a goal to read all of Austen's novels this year and I have read 4 so far. Until this year I had only ever read Pride and Prejudice. I am enjoying watching your videos as I finish each book.
Late comment here, but I'm going to assert that Mary probably fibbed about the actual wording and ungallant intent of Captain Wentworth's comment that Anne had altered to the point he would not have recognized her. I doub't he would have said anything overly negative about Anne to her own sister whom he just met, even if he was still hurt. Mary wanted to turn the conversation with Anne to her own praise, and diminishing Anne raised Mary up in her own mind.
I think Mary reported Wentworth's statement accurately, although perhaps not its tone. Mary's passive aggressive attitude toward Anne is frequently in evidence, and I believe she reported the remark, fully aware of how painful it would be for Anne to hear. Mary says many cruel things to her sister in this fashion.
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I’d love to learn a little more about cousin Mr. Elliot and his motivations for attempting to be a part of the Elliot family.
Status. I think it's nothing more edifying than that. When he was younger he wanted money (hence his first marriage). Then, once he was wealthy, he wanted the status and estate etc of inheriting the baronetcy and Kellynch (it turns out he seems to have some of "the Elliot pride" after all). He only makes friends again with the Elliots when he hears rumours that Sir Walter is likely to marry again (to Mrs Clay), and so possibly have a son and so disinherit him. Marrying Anne would mean that he could be closer to Sir Walter indefinitely and so continue to keep Sir Walter away from any future wives.
Thank you very much for your explanations absout Jane Austen . I get more and more interested in her modern ❤style.
Thank you so much Dr. Cox! Persuasion has always been my favorite of Jane Austen’s novels because of Anne’s strength and kindness despite her loneliness and legitimate heartache . Anne’s sensitivity and tendency to be harsh with herself are qualities I think many of us relate to.
When you speak of the action of the novel, that is helpful; I’ve always felt the power of small moments in the book that I don’t believe any other writer could have invested with so much feeling and significance. When Frederick lifts her tiny tyrannical nephew off of her back and frees her from his grasp, I’ve tried to read that to friends & family as one of my favorite passages. It’s hard to explain why it’s so powerful. It’s an act of liberation, of kindness, of friendship. It’s the same when he helps her into the carriage after their long walk.These simple actions obviously are written in a way that conveys their meaning
Thank you for your beautiful illumination/interpretation of her work!
I fall in love with your channel after this beautiful and clever analysis ❤❤ Thank you I truly I enjoy this and part 2 as well.
You analyse so well and closely. I am a longtime re reader of Austen, and it is goodto haveyour close analysis Thank you
Thank you for such a lovely, kind message. Octavia
I just had a thought. Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy’s relationship starts off with an insult to the lady’s appearance too.
There can be a lot of subtlety and power in a good double-negative, another rule I ignore.
Persuasion has become my favorite Austen novel and I really enjoy your analysis of it!
Two points:
a) with a father, and an elder and a younger sister who each think the world of themselves and think that the world owes them a living, how is it that Anne Elliot doesn't think the same way, and is such a likeable character?
b) Captain Wentworth does NOT say that Anne is "so altered he should not have known (her) again" - it is Mary who tells Anne that Captain Wentworth said this - and Mary is not exactly a reliable witness to anything the main object of which is not Mary (and then only if it is flattering to herself): "Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me......"
Anne, however, has not the self-confidence to doubt Mary's words and this passage is followed by Anne thinking first of her own reaction to what was said and then imagining what Frederick Wentworth must have been feeling when allegedly he said the words.
Excellent point. Mary is - as you say - not a reliable witness or reporter. In terms of understanding Anne's thinking here, though, I do think it is worth observing that she does not soften what she believes to be Wentworth's words - indeed, she makes them harder and more brutal.
Mary isn't reliable, but the narrator tells us that Wentworth did really say that: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
@@trembletea The words "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them" is the point, surely - Anne has already changed the words quoted by Mary ("..so altered he would not have known you" becomes, in Anne's mind, "Altered beyond his knowledge") in her initial reaction and further modifications (to her own disadvantage) would occur to her. In depends on emphasis: placing the emphasis on the verb "used" gives it a very different meaning from emphasising the auxillary "had".
And to think that when I first read this novel (aged 19) I was disappointed - I thought that it was (very high-class, wonderfully written) Mills and Boon-ish; how wrong can one be.
Anne had already acknowledged to herself that Captain Wentworth did not look worse than he had before. And she had concluded previously that 1. her only love would be Wentworth and 2. that she had changed in her looks, and not for the better. I wonder if she knew how much being loved and respected by someone worth had previously enhanced her appearance.
I so totally see you in a classroom teaching classical english literature to your students 🙂❤️
This is slightly off-topic, but I would love your comments on young women leaving home. In every novel except Emma, the heroines leave their family home, either by necessity (S&S, Mansfield Park) or for pleasure. In P&P, Jane gets a winter in London, Elizabeth a tour of Derbyshire, Lydia-- Brighton! In Persuasion, Anne comes to life as she travels. In Northanger Abbey, Catherine's pleasure travels take up almost the entire book. Even Emma, in the excursion to Box Hill, gets a vestigial voyage from home. But I wonder if Emma's claim she will never marry isn't putting the best face on her realization that she can't take the normal steps away from home-- in spite of having a loving sister 16 miles away in London. (As you know, the book starts with the marriage of a woman who had to leave home as a governess and includes three other marriages of young women who get engaged while traveling.) The young women who sit placidly at home waiting for Mr. Right (Anne DeBourgh, Elizabeth Elliot) are still sitting at the of their books.
Just wonder if you have any thoughts about this.
Hi. I enjoyed your interesting comment.
Analysis is something I've never enjoyed, but I've loved this subject, and your analysis is brilliant. Thank you 🏆
Glad you enjoyed it! Octavia
You are making me think... Do you think that perhaps one of the reasons Jane Austen had for choosing this lack of actual dialogue/speech/conversation/spoken words is that Anne Elliot had been persuaded by words, incessant, pervasive, "gentle" reproaches by Lady Russell to break off the engagement? That incessant nagging has basically silenced Anne.
And perhaps because no-one listens to her when she does speak? A telling, very sad, line comes when they are walking to Winthrop, and Anne asks a question about the route, "But nobody heard, or, at least, nobody answered her" (ch.10). I think Anne might feel that she herself is the only person who will listen to her.
@@DrOctaviaCox Indeed. her family doesn't listen when it comes to retrechning, she is not wanted in Bath, she is sent to Uppercross without really having any say in it. She tried to warn Elizabeth about Mrs Clay and "She spoke, and seemed only to offend." The first time in the Musgrove's house they ask her things about her family and don'T even wait for her to answer! Anne is admirable. The way she stays so sane and reasonable all the time. I would be inclined to scream and kick ;)
She was very young at the time and was probably in the habit of taking Lady Russell's opinions seriously, so it seems to me very natural that she let herself be persuaded to break off the engagement. Wentworth, if he had been perfectly just and reasonable, should have taken this into account and not been so judgemental. But he's a real person, not a perfect one!
Late response, but I have much respect for Anne for letting go of blame and anger for Mrs. Russell, and for herself. In an family where she has no emotional support, Mrs. Russell, her beloved mother's dear friend who loves Anne in turn like a daughter, is all Anne has besides her own internal compass. To me Anne's comment at the end that she doesn't blame Mrs. Russell but would not act as she did is one of the healthiest ways a character have dealt with parental figure's human flaws.
Personally I love how they don’t have much time together they have to find themselves before being together
As far as Anne deciding ahead of time that her youth and bloom were gone, don't forget that her father's fixation on youth, beauty, and physical appearances had already rubbed her nose in this daily during those 8 years. We have many many instances throughout the book of his critical comments on her appearance.
I love Persuasion, but this vídeo brought some thoughts I had never had about the story. Loved it!
the internal dialogue you elucidate reminds me of Mrs. Ramsay's internal dialogue regarding how she has ordered her married life, almost like V. Woolf accidetally imitated Austen.
As soon I realized you were going to mention Fanny Burney I literally cheered out loud. Not enough people talk about her!
The other thing is that Mary's memory of the language used by Capt. Wentworth may not have been exact. It is Mary's perception that Wentworth wasn't gallant towards Anne, although all other reports are that he was charming. Also, Mary may have simply misunderstood Wentworth since she isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Mary is harmless or not deliberately harmful, and her retelling of her own perception of Wentworth's speech may have been imprecise.
Through my obvious modern lens, I’ve thought Wentworth saying she was so altered could be read as a positive; as in, maybe he viewed her as passive & cold when she was younger & now she’s more confident, independent-minded, & mature. But I realized Anne wouldn’t view it as a positive.
Regarding the line about her not caring what he thinks of her: If one can’t control something (she can’t influence what he thinks of her), one does have control over deciding not to care (opting out, deciding to respond with apathy, even if feelings have yet to be congruent with thoughts).
I found your analysis very interesting and apt, thank you.
It's my pleasure - I'm very pleased you found it interesting.
Very interesting analysis!! Your videos really help with the preparation of the C2 English exam. Have you considered to launch a podcast? It would be very convenient for many to listen while doing other activities. Thank you!
Thank you, LAU - I'm very pleased that you find my videos helpful. That's a great suggestion about podcasting - I've also thought about writing an audiobook.
Love your channel! Why do you think Captain Wentworth made that blunder? Was he trying to persuade himself that Anne had changed?
Thank you, Isabella. Yes, I think so - Wentworth's self-persuasions are as important as Anne's in the novel (it's just that we see much less of his "internal persuasions" (ch.22)).
@@DrOctaviaCox I don't know, I think he blurted out his genuine initial response to seeing her: "Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them, but without an idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot." At the same time, the fact that his reaction is immediately followed by the sentence, "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot" does suggest that he is not looking at her impartially, but through his anger.
Thank you.
Wentworth simply remembers the pain of his first rejection by Anne, as well as the eight years of suppressed longing that he has felt. That would explain the harshness in his remark . That's what it seems like to me; speaking as a man and putting myself in his position. Wentworth isn't perfect. He has his faults.
11:07 the comparison with this other novelist of her time... is merciless! 😅
Excellent !
This is my favourite book until I think of pride and prejudice... and I find it hard to choose
Can you think of any other revealing moments of Anne’s inner dialogue in the novel?
Hi!
One of my favourite episode is the "long walk" to Winthrop in chapter 10.
"Her pleasure in the walk MUST arise from the excercise and the day, from the view of the last smiles of the year upon the tawny leaves and withered hedges, and from repeating to herself some few of the thousand poetical descriptions extant of autumn, that season of peculiar and inexhaustible influence on the mind of taste and tenderness, that season which had drawn from every poet, worthy of being read, some attempt at description, or some lines of feeling".
You can feel how hard she's trying to persuade herself not to think of her ex fiance flirting in front of her with another girl.
It's even a bit amusing, when you realize it's clearly not working.
"Anne could not immediately fall into a quotation again. The sweet scenes of autumn were for a while put by, unless some tender sonnet, fraught with the apt analogy of the declining year with declining happiness, and the images of youth and hope, and spring, all gone together, blessed her memory".
Fabulous quotation!
And yes exactly - Anne is trying (and failing) to live by the advice she gives to Captain Benwick, that literature should be used “to rouse and fortify the mind by the highest precepts” (ch.11). But her literary meditations are neither rousing her spirits nor fortifying her mind against her (understandable) melancholy. As the narrative voice wryly observes, “she had been eloquent on a point in which her own conduct would ill bear examination”.
When Anne and Wentworth saw the stranger's admiration of Anne's beauty, their opinions seem to have changed.
What did you think of the snarky almost mean description of Dick. I was laughing and quite amused at how awful her thoughts were about him. She is quite funny throughout the book. For example her sister Mary's spoiled antics. Not to mention her father's and sister Elizabeth conceited entitled snobbery. I love your analysis of the books, makes me think more. Thanks.
It's my pleasure - I'm always happy to encourage more thinking about Austen!
Thanks for watching.
P. S. Her description of Dick Musgrove is quite remarkable. I think it might be a comment on the way that people choose to memorialise those who die in military service.
@@DrOctaviaCox wow that seems like a harsh eulogy. Lol. Wonder what people would have said about me back then. But Persuasion is definitely my favorite. Ofcourse I live them all, except. Sanditon although I just saw the TV version, so that's really not fair.
Thank you so much for this analysis! I always wondered about the title of this one. It's so different from Austin's other novels.
Why do you think Austen described Anne and Wentworth's original relationship as a sort of fling out of boredom and youth, when they have such a long lasting and deep connection with each other?
My favorite Anne Elliot and Persuasion
I am really a big fan of your lectures, although they sometimes make me feel stupid. Listening to your explanations makes me realize how 'naive' I was during my previous readings of the books, in which I was mainly concerned with the story and clearly missed many things.
Every time I read Mary's report of what Cpt. Wentworth supposedly said about Anne, I wonder how much Mary parapharased; somehow I doubt that she quoted him verbatim. That would mean, I think, that Anne's making CW's quote sound even harsher in her own musings is maybe not even in line with Wentworth's own thoughts (like a broken telephone sort of deal), much less what he would venture to say out loud. I always imagine he might have said something along of the lines of "she has changed some since we last conversed" and Mary went and added her own spice in the retelling, in her own obnoxiously oblivious style, lol.
It also gets me that, in her self-persuasions, Anne is continually trying to negotiate convincing herself that C. Wentworth rightfully detests her with protecting his character and portraying his motivations in the best light TO HERSELF! (i.e. he hates me as he should but he's not hateful about it because he's a gentleman and a good man)
I tried reading Fanny Burney and was just bored to tears and annoyed. The repetition seemed sheer endless to me and the plot progressed at the pace of an arthritic snail. One heroine just stumbling through the story, meeting one rapey ahole after the other and saying "pray, sir, let me go" for 700 pages. The end. This is probably an unfair summary, but that's the impression that lingered with me. Jane Austen? Never a dull moment. I am completely on her side regarding the frustration with the "novel" as a concept way back when.
I've always wondered why Anne broke her engagement with captain Wentworth? Its suggested that she did it for him. Which really confuses me.
This is a really interesting point. Early in the novel we are told that Anne was "persuaded to believe the engagement a wrong thing", principally by Lady Russell. I think the text encourages us to interpret that Lady Russell's most effective persuasive technique, "caution", was to convince Anne that it was for _Wentworth's_ "good", rather than her own, that the engagement be broken:
"Such opposition, as these feelings produced, was more than Anne could combat. Young and gentle as she was, it might yet have been possible to withstand her father's ill-will, though unsoftened by one kind word or look on the part of her sister; but Lady Russell, whom she had always loved and relied on, could not, with such steadiness of opinion, and such tenderness of manner, be continually advising her in vain. She was persuaded to believe the engagement a wrong thing: indiscreet, improper, hardly capable of success, and not deserving it. But *it was not a merely selfish caution* , under which she acted, in putting an end to it. *Had she not imagined herself consulting his good, even more than her own, she could hardly have given him up* . The belief of being prudent, and self-denying, principally for his advantage, was her chief consolation, under the misery of a parting, a final parting..." (ch.4)
Lady Russell knows Anne well enough to realise this. And (to me) implies a certain underhand sneakiness in Lady Russell. I think Austen's use of the word "imagined" here is crucial.
@@DrOctaviaCox I haven't considered that the idea was designed by Lady Russell to best persuade Anne. Thank you~
7:55 These girls' fashion look very much like ancient Greece, especially the hair styles; a little Googling confirms my suspicion.
21:54 Does "should not have known you again" mean that he does not want to know her again *OR* that he she has physically changed (presumably for the worse), and that he barely recognized her?