I always thought that maybe Lucy likely manipulated her way to Exeter (based on the expediency of their removal there from Portsmouth so quickly after Edward’s departure) to then find a way to Barton Park. I also thought when Edward was in a hurry to be gone from visiting at Barton a week, it was likely because he’d received a letter from Lucy indicating she was heading that direction. When Lucy shows correspondence with Edward to Elinor it makes sense that she’d show her the most recent communications, which she received “just before she left for Exeter” meaning her response to him was likely just before her departure or upon arrival in Exeter. Notably, he plans to go elsewhere (London or Norland) to escape the neighborhood. It is also possible that’s why Lucy suddenly “gave him a lock of my hair set in a ring when he was at Longstaple last” which seems an odd thing to do on a whim after 4 years of engagement (he gave her his picture 3 years prior). I’ve always re-read her as extremely manipulative.
I think that Lucy not only knew about Elinor and her relationship with Edward, she knew enough about Elinor's character to realize that entrusting her with the secret of their engagement was the best way to steer Elinor away from Edward. Any other woman could have and would have used that secret to destroy the engagement, but Elinor does not. Lucy knew just how to use Elinor's moral character as a weapon against her. Over the years, I have developed a grudging appreciation/admiration for the character of Lucy.
Some women and gay men have a fascination for bitches. Lucy Steele is a bitch. But She is the right villain. Edward is such a coward. Fortunately he was desherited and She showed her true character and he finally got rid of her.
Yes.. Lucy Steele was just doing what a woman of "low societal rank" would do to ensure herself a comfortable future.. thinking with her head and nothing more.. where as the Dashwood girls are very inclined to be genuinely sincere in their feelings and emotions.. a sense of morality and pure hearts.. and not opportunistic like Lucy Steele was.. but.. it's hard to dislike her when we can't fault a person for practicing self-preservation
@@kimberlee8567 she's a foil for Elinor to make Elinor seem less cold hearted. On the one hadyou have Marianne clinging to everlasting true love. But Jane very much favours heart over head, so she writes from Elinor's perspective and is more critical of Marianne. Hwoever, she wants to make Elinor seem to have some level of humanity and compassion, so she brings in Lucy who is only guided by money and comes a cross as a bitch, even if she gets what she wants.
@@MsJubjubbirdI certainly never saw Elinor as lacking in compassion! Rigidly controlled about her own feelings, yes; but tender about those of others. She showed herself concerned with the feelings of her mother, of Marianne, of Colonel Brandon (when the younger people are ignoring or mocking him and she seeks him out to ask him to tell her about his travels, so he will feel valued), and even about Willoughby when he shows up suddenly, asking after Marianne during her illness.
Throughout the entire novel, Lucy shows herself to be quite adept at monitoring the reactions of others in order to manipulate the circumstances in her favor. She undoubtedly noticed Edward's feelings and took action to counter any threat.
Yes, and she reads Elinor very correctly to be an honorable woman who would put her own feelings aside rather than break up an engagement. Lucy was very clever to do it in the way of confiding in Elinor so that Elinor even becomes a champion for Lucy and Edward. The one person where Lucy very much miscalculated though, maybe because she succeeded so easily with Elinor first, was Fanny Dashwood. Although that mishap on her part didn't hinder her at all.
@@londongael414 This is interesting: I'm not sure that Lucy thinks she can get Fanny "on-side", or that it would make much difference to Mrs F if she did: but the invitation by Fanny, the pleasant treatment of Lucy and the snubbing of Elinor at that party give Lucy the opportunity to gloat over Elinor. Both know the real reason for all this occurring (ie that the family are worried that Edward is too interested in Elinor and wish to humiliate her in any way possible - whereas Mrs F doesn't see Lucy as a threat), but neither would say it out loud - Lucy because it would prevent her from gloating, and Elinor because it would seem to be like jealousy. Elinor's interest in Edward has not been admitted to Lucy at this stage, but Lucy knows of it, and Elinor is fully aware of this. One other point - Lucy has surely picked up on the reference to "Miss Morton", and so realises that this is a person whom the family might have in mind for Edward. Para 2 and 3: I doubt that Lucy had her eye on Robert - (a) she doesn't know that Mrs Ferrars is going to settle on Robert irrevocably, following the engagement coming out, (b) she knows nothing of Robert, so cannot know whether she would be able to "get off with" him anyway, (please forgive the colloquialism) and (c) the opportunity to "get" Robert (after the irrevocable settlement is made on R) arises because the lovely Ferrars family think that R might be able to persuade Lucy to dump Edward: she does - but not quite in the way that Mrs F., John and Fanny expect. I think that they rather deserve Lucy.
I think one of Jane Austen’s most consistent notes that I’ve noticed is to be wary of over sharers! Wickham in P&P and Lucy here are both guilty of dropping a ton of personal information to near strangers. It’s often done with nefarious ends... it reminds me of people saying not to trauma dump in the comments today
I have always assumed that Lucy arrived in Barton with the express intention of blocking any sort of relationship formation between Elenor and Edward. It was the only explanation I could think up as to why she was so intent on being friends with someone she didn’t know and who’s companionship would do little to elevate her status.
What I remember about reading S&S is that there is a lot of text dedicated to how Lucy got herself invited to Barton. I came away with the impression that she worked very hard to work her social connections to get the invitation. I never realized that Edward had come directly from Lucy to Elinor before. I think my lack of knowledge of English geography hindered me there. Did she know about Elinor? Absolutely and she set straight to the task of protecting her investment in Edward.
I think Edward tried to break up with her before going to stay with Elinor, so that he could ask Elinor to marry him. He is no match for Lucy's machinations, he might not even know that's what they are.
@@kahkah1986 Edward had every possible means and reason to cut of his engagement to Lucy. The problem is the 'alternative' was hardly any better for his family. He also chose to keep his word because the society that day worked like this and breaking once's word could cost a dual and possibly death or disfigurement. Lucy will be protected from the same judgement as she's married Robert who is now the sole heir of the vast fortune and she found a way to ingratiate herself to Mrs Ferrars, the mother, and will probably be able to work her way with Fanny once Mrs Ferrars is dead.
@julijakeit No, Lucy in theory had power of refusal, and presumably Edward appealed to her better nature (we were young and rash, we are adults now) without abruptly breaking it off, although given that his family urge him to do so, this would strongly imply that society did not in fact work that way I.e. he could break it off. While Brandon does fight a duel over Eliza, he is a soldier, an army colonel, and it is much less likely Lucy has a male relative to call Edward out; that would make him a coward if that was all he was frightened of. Edward's family is extremely wealthy; he could try and pay Lucy off should she try and blackmail him with a law suit, something that would be a little more likely.
Lucy is such a fascinating character. She might be cunning and even maybe a little bitchy, but I really love her hability to read the room, adapt to every other situation and manipulating without really doing it. She's a survivor, somehow, playing with the social cards she had and worked so well with them. What I really love about her arc in the story is that any other author by the time would have punished her for her ways, but Austen allows her to thrive.
Well put. She’s certainly not presented as admirable, but good grief… what other options does she realistically have to not be living hand to mouth on charity? She doesn’t even seem to have the qualifications to be a governess ( too ‘low’ ) or enter one of the trades that did accept some women.
@@archervine8064 Agreed. I don't think she's a particularly nice person, but given her circumstances, I can't be too hard on her behaviour. The one thing I will fault her for was sending the misleading message to Elinor, suggesting that she had married Edward, not Robert. Given Lucy was now married to a wealthy husband, it wasn't necessary. I suppose that she'd schemed for so long, that she had become that person.
@@ArtingFromScratch Lucy married 'above herself' like Mrs Bennet, but there I think the resemblance ends. Firstly, Mrs Bennet is not very clever, unlike Lucy Steele. Although she is certainly not above scheming, she is not subtle enough to bring it off succesfully. Secondly there is no hint in P&P that Mr Bennet was in any way ensnared by her. He was simply infatuated with her good looks and high spirits (and lived to regret it)
I've always felt that Lucy stampeded to Elinor using any possible means the moment she thought Edward might be looking at another woman. She says herself she's incredibly jealous and I think it's painfully obvious that statement is true. Edward is her ticket to a fancy life, and she's hanging on by her fingernails with a knife in her teeth. I've always been extremely disappointed there isn't a much more detailed recounting of exactly how she managed to connive her way onto Edward's brother the moment the money was his, and the fall out in the family of her getting the better of the mother in law that had gone to such drastic measures to get rid of her. I think a retelling of the story from Lucy's point of view into a movie could be absolutely hilarious if written right. Watching this charming and unsubtle Cinderella-/ Lolita-like gold-digger get her rich husband with the rest of Sense and Sensibility playing around her in the background of her machinations would be wonderful, I think.
I like that idea! Instead of disliking Lucy in favor of Elinor, I find myself rooting for her and loving how much she actually gets away with. I want to see Fanny’s face when she realizes she’s stuck with Lucy, and the brother she prefers is going to be a country Vicar in a loving marriage.
Oh, Miss Lucy Steele definitely knew. I have been wrestling with my feelings about Lucy since I watched your video 'What does Jane Austen’s Lucy Steele tell us about Regency Society? SENSE AND SENSIBILITY analysis'. Your video made me think of her as being used as a foil to show the vapidity of the society she worked her way up into - which absolutely. However, honestly, I get incensed whenever I read the horribly awkward scene where Lucy is visiting Elinor, and Edward comes to visit, and Lucy won't go away - I'm entirely on Marianne's side of that argument. And her digs at Elinor make me want to stomp about in a huff, as I really do just adore Elinor. I know she's not perfect but I do like her so much and so I feel all fluffed up like an angry hen when Lucy's being cutting to Elinor.
I’ve been hoping you would cover this topic! Lucy is such an interesting yet horrible person, but you can understand her fear of poverty in Regency England. Jane Austen was so good at coming up with interesting characters.
I don't think Lucy is at all horrible; she is very much the practical woman, and she always knows which side of the loaf is buttered. JA must have known quite a few like Lucy. Mrs. Ferrars, Miss Lucy Steele as was, is a cat with sharp claws and long teeth, but she sounds and looks so sweet. Just like Jezebel.
@@kevinrussell1144 Lucy Steele is definitely a product of her time, not denying that. But the way she immediately married Edwards brother right after they broke off their engagement is pretty cold hearted even for the time. She’s one of the types to smile in your face while stabbing you in the back. Now we can argue she may not have been this way if society would’ve been different in Regency England. Even with that being said, she’s not the kind of person I would want to be around much lol. (Edited for spelling errors)
@@jessica_jam4386 I'm guessing you can STEELE find lots of Lucys shopping in London even as we type. JA didn't fabricate the original out of thin air, and she (if with us today) would notice if the muslin gown on this new Lucy fit her ill or well.
@@kevinrussell1144 sure, there are still, or “Steele”😅 plenty of women with personalities similar to Lucy Steeles who exist today. I wouldn’t compare them exactly to her though, because Lucy or her real life counterparts, didn’t have the options women have now. And being poor in the that era was truly miserable and much worse then being poor in western countries today.
There's also that whole part of the later conversation between Lucy and Eleanor in which Eleanor herself thinks that Lucy says ("with meaning", if I'm remembering the text right) that "if he had spoken more about a certain person" (again, paraphrasing). It's one of the points in that conversation that Eleanor appears to pick up on as evidence for her conclusion that Lucy is aware that Edward wants to be released from the engagement. I've always read that particular line of text to mean that Edward DID talk about Eleanor while visiting Lucy at Plymouth, and that Lucy was feeling VERY threatened by Edward's feelings for Eleanor before she'd even visited Exeter.
Thank you for the reading. It is always fascinating to witness over and over again the meticulous filigree with which Jane Austen paints a picture of a person using social conventions to influence their fate. I often think of this quote at the end that sums up Lucy’s character so well: “The whole of Lucy’s behaviour in the affair, and the prosperity which crowned it, therefore, may be held forth as a most encouraging instance of what an earnest, an unceasing attention to self-interest, however its progress may be apparently obstructed, will do in securing every advantage of fortune, with no other sacrifice than that of time and conscience. “ Once again, she nails it.
I think Lucy Steele is brilliant in the American sense - extremely bright as well as extremely ambitious. We see this as she realizes exactly how honorable Elinor is, and uses this to keep Elinor silent - if she hadn't taken her into confidence, Elinor could have ruined everything. We see this later as she first gains Richard's love and then his mother's - so that the woman who "forced" Mrs Ferrars to disown her eldest son became the favored child, in Austen's own words. Such a person would be more than capable of perceiving exactly how her betrothed felt for Elinor - and what sort of person Elinor was _ and make sure that she was silenced by the very act of taking Elinor into her confidence. Perhaps her only match in Austen would be William Elliot, except I think she really does love her sister.
It's something I have considered before, but your close reading of Austen's style of exposition in the early novels makes it very clear...yes, I think she did. Lucy Steele is a fairly cunning person as she comes across in the text, and she'd be alert to how Edward spoke about another woman...and would then manoeuver to make the acquaintance of her 'rival' in any way she could.
Wow. Makes perfect sense. Lucy is so …. argh!!!! To a point you can’t blame her. The society she’s in and the position she was born into mean she is not far from pretty grinding poverty. To marry well is her only way out of that being a possibility, and she knows she doesn’t have anything but herself to work with. So she works within the confines of the society to give herself the best shot at that that she sees, and she plans to protect that shot at all costs. When Edward is cut off, she knows exactly what sort of life they would have instead, as Mrs Jenkins anticipates. So she goes hard for Robert instead. She knows she’s pretty and that she can flatter, and she uses that to its max to get him. Gotta admire the grind I guess! But ugh, she is why I have a hard time te-reading this book, because she makes me so angry!
I can completely agree with you. In this novel, Austen ensures that the Villain WINS - Lucy got everything she wanted - Fortune, Position, Marriage - and, to an extent (though few critics appreciate it), this is an Austen trait - far from the moralizing of the Victorian period, where the "Good" thrive and the "Evil" get their eventual comeuppance, Austen often closes her novels NOT punishing the Villains. Look at "Lady Susan", for example, where a COMPLETELY ruthless woman succeeds in all her plans, eventually. Or even in S&S, Willoughby, who seduces and abandons the underage young Eliza, ends up in a wealthy marriage - no punishment for his many wrongs. There is little doubt that the Victorians would certainly have seen this novel as "Wicked"!
@@michaelodonnell824 I don’t know if the Victorians would have been against it really, but by the “villains” not ending up punished, Austen is actually making a more powerful statement against society than them getting some sort of comeuppance. She’s saying “Look at these people being successful and question if they are actually good people.” Pretty powerful message I think.
@@londongael414 I dunno, she’s able to dress well but is embarrassed by her sister’s free discussion of how she does it cheaply. They spend time with relatives with no indication of where their home is. Sure Ann is content with, say, a doctor, but even that life wouldn’t be guaranteed to be comfortable. Even the Dashwoods end up in a bad spot because of the caprice of an old man, despite having been related to someone so well off. Life was more precarious for women than for men. And at this time, the middle class was still fairly weak, not as robust as it would grow to in the Victorian times, so it would have been easier to fall out of it. To be clear, I still hate Lucy Steele with every fiber of my being. But I also get where she’s coming from.
@@londongael414 Thinking about it, it’s interesting that she also doesn’t give Eleanor the super rich happy ending that is common in a lot of other fiction. She loves Edward for who he is, and he reward for being good is him in his most authentic self. It’s a pretty powerful message that being good isn’t always rewarded with the 100% complete perfect happy ending, but instead with a personal happy ending. Even if she didn’t end up with Edward, she knew she didn’t have anything to regret in her conduct. And that’s part of what Marianne has to learn.
Very interesting video. Thank you. It's clear in the book that Lucy Steele is an expert manipulator of people especially men. I agree that the thrust of the story is her managing to 'catch' Edward and then hold on to him at all costs - unless and until she jumps ship when she finds someone richer. However, there is I think something gratuitously spiteful in the way she treats Elinor that cannot just be explained by wanting to warn her off Edward. Elinor is at the receiving end of the spitefulness of three women: Fanny Dashwood, Mrs Ferrars and Lucy. Personally I interpret this as perhaps being because Elinor has a quality of character that they simply don't understand and therefore mistrust. I am sure Jane Austen deliberately doesn't tell us why they persecute her, just as she doesn't explain why Mrs Norris constantly picks on Fanny Price. Shakespeare does the same thing with some of his worst characters, such as Iago. He and Austen are both saying something profound.
@@londongael414 Yes, great comment. Such amazing characterisation to capture how bullies react to fear! Lucy has a streak of sadism in her which makes her despicable to us but also implies Robert and Mrs Ferrars will inevitably experience some suffering by being so close to her in the future. But they richly deserve it so perhaps there's some justice after all.
I always suspected that Lucy was aware of Edward's attachment to Elinor and my theory is that the time Lucy spend with Edward while he was taking lessons from her father (if I remember correctly) was the time she tried (and succeeded) in seducing him and succeeded in getting secretly engaged. Now, suspecting Elinor would apply the same tactics and knowing that Elinor stood closer to Edwards family than her, she ingratiated herself to whoever was able to provide an invitation for her to meet Elinor and investigate. We know for sure that Lucy is very cunning and observant yet lacks the morals that Charlotte Lucas had, as soon as Edward is disinherited, she sets her cap at his younger brother who is to inherit it all. Though she angered the Ferrarses at first, she managed to work her way to become 'closer than the real children' to Mrs Ferrars. That's how astute Lucy is.
… and how desperate. I believe she had no other prospects for her own security than marriage, though you can see her building bridges to the children of well to do families (perhaps as a governess or nursemaid, as a backup plan.) She had no talents, no wealth, no status, no knowledge, and (really) no help of any kind. Like Charlotte, she’s being very pragmatic here, but unlike Charlotte she’s far less supported. At the end of the day, she had Anne (for awhile) to throw a bit of distraction in so her schemes were not quite so obvious…. she felt she HAD to find some agreeable person to help her gain an audience with Elinor and, in her mind, what better way to win her confidence than by flattery? Yes, her lies came out with Anne (& out went Anne with them) but think what would have happened if they didn’t (horrors!) Elinor & Edward would be parted forever and Lucy (+Anne, I daresay) would both be not only old maids (not so bad from our modern viewpoints) but also POOR and utterly without means of a more secure future. Charlotte, at least, would have had her well developed mind, her family, and her friends of good standing to ensure she did not end up in the gutter. What did the sisters Steele have? Also worth mentioning that I believe the primary vein of this plan goes way back to her school days. Without the means to be introduced properly to society and, therefore, her pool of potential husbands (certainly well off ones) was extremely limited… I can see how she saw her escape route and persisted in assuring herself a comfortable existence. It’s too bad she had such little self respect to go along with the microscopic opportunities afforded women at the time.
"and knowing that Elinor stood closer to Edwards family than her" Lol how much society has changed that this distinction would very much be a negative in Elinor's favor today 😅 "So wait, you are my half brother's brother in law?" "Yes?" "NOPE" 😂🤣
@@nancymcclymont2858 "She had no talents, no wealth, no status, no knowledge, and (really) no help of any kind" You see that doesn't fly at all on the knowledge side of things. Her father was a school master and the novel presents her as intelligent enough to manipulate events to her advantage. It doesn't strike me as likely that she would have learned nothing from such a father unless he was the most inattentive parent of the era.
@@mnomadvfx Right, and being the daughter of a schoolmaster was no leg up in society, the marriage mart, and it in no way paid well. She did the most she could with that situation by manipulating Edward the way she did. I’m saying the same thing a different way. She felt she had to do these things because all she had was her ability to strategize, manipulate, etc.
@@nancymcclymont2858 In a way, Jane Austen used Lucy's character to show how the society treated (and still treats to this day) the flatters and the unscrupulous. They win even if they go over the heads and hearts of others. Had Elinor had more sense as to who Lucy was, she would have never accepted to be her confidante and would have ruined Lucy as she so cunningly was making Elinor suffer and boasting about her engagement, even gossiping about Marianne's situation. But Elinor has too many principles that would have ruined her if not Colonel Brandon while Lucy wins by dumping Edward the moment he's disinherited and going after his brother. I also always wondered, how was Robert Ferrars fall for Lucy so quickly? I suspect that Lucy played her tricks on him just to secure her position in a wealthy family while still being engaged to Edward, just in case.
Thanks for this enjoyable analysis. That Lucy Steele must have found out about Elinor Dashwood from Edward Ferrars not only demonstrates Lucy's cunning and shrewdness, but also Edward's guilelessness.
I'd go as far as saying "gormlessness", honestly...? 🤦🏻♀️ Edward was stuck in a truly difficult situation having been inveighled by Lucy into an early engagement (via his teen infatuation & her manipulativeness) before he really got to know her character - basically trapped and heading for a loveless marriage with a very scheming woman. But I'm not sure I can consider his subsequently spending so much time with Elinor to be a truly honorable course of action...? Surely he couldn't have been so oblivious as to not notice her growing affection for him, particularly given that he felt the same way, and even his relatives started noticing his partiality? He's honorable in not dumping Lucy (which could've destroyed her reputation) but per the mores of the time, the really honorable thing to do about Elinor would surely have been to start only meeting her socially, interacting with cordiality but more reserve, and definitely not keep going for cosy visits to their cottage? It's like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too - a more respectable version of his brother Robert's flexible morals! 🥴 The way Edward's written, he seems to lack the strict degree of self-control and personal honour that Elinor has, so I was always dubious about whether their eventual marriage would really have been a happy one?
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 Excellent observations and I agree it reflects Edward's naivety but also his stunted emotional growth. His mother and his upbringing have kept him in a state of chronic low self-esteem and this lack of independence, as well as his genuinely guileless and good-hearted nature, make him slower to understand the implications of his behaviour. He's an interesting mirror to Marianne, another fundamentally honest but overly trusting personality. I also read Edward as often in a state of clinical depression and this contributes to his passivity and desperate reaching out for comfort from Elinor, without much thought for her feelings. I recall Austen indicates their marriage is a happy one because Edward's sources of misery (mother, brother and former fiance!) mostly recede from him and he relies more on Elinor's judgement going forward which is a great support to him with his shyness and lack of worldiness. They're both financially uncertain but free of the stifling obligations of their former lives so they can relax and enjoy the company of genuine people at last.
I hope at some point Dr. Cox will tackle the question in “Persuasion” that always puzzled me: Did Mary Musgrove know that Charles proposed to her older sister before he married her? The family all knows, so they can hardly have kept their knowledge from Mary’s ears (because they’re so tacky and indiscreet). But then, how would a whiner like Mary ever hold off from reproaching either her husband or her sister that he apparently preferred Anne at first? It doesn’t seem like her to not whip that out when she feels ill-used, even if she does basically love and respect her sister.
Mary does say that she was away at school when Anne knew Cpt Wentworth, and she may still have been there when Charles proposed, so maybe she was too young to take much notice of it at the time.
Yes I would love to know this as well. I also want to know what happens to Mrs Clay's children, she seems to abandon them to go to Bath quite easily....
Yes, I do! Though I'd love to know what you think was going through her mind to make her decide that Fanny wouldn't react badly to her revealing her engagement. A close reading of that, I mean.
From Ch. 24: Lucy went on. “I am rather of a jealous temper too by nature, and from our different situations in life, from his being so much more in the world than me, and our continual separation, I was enough inclined for suspicion, to have found out the truth in an instant, if there had been the slightest alteration in his behaviour to me when we met, or any lowness of spirits that I could not account for, or if he had talked more of one lady than another, or seemed in any respect less happy at Longstaple than he used to be. I do not mean to say that I am particularly observant or quick-sighted in general, but in such a case I am sure I could not be deceived.” This has always seemed to me Lucy's clearest statement of "I do NOT like the way Edward spoke of you, Elinor Dashwood, nor how his behavior has changed since meeting you, so back away."
With Edward's reserved nature he probably mentioned Eleanor and her entire family and as someone else commented, Lucy seems astute enough to pick up on his feelings. My feeling is Lucy kept questioning him to get more information while noting his reactions. She was a sly one.
Thank you for commenting on this. I had not picked up on the history of Lucy’s fascination with meeting Eleanor. Since Austen brilliantly used effusive language in her characters’ conversations (so clever, amusing and also ridiculous), I had not considered she had really “longed for” knowing Eleanor. There is always something new to discover in Austen. Thank you.
Of course Lucy Steele knew about Elinor and the possibility of her being a threat. And she wasn't so subtle as to fool Elinor when it came to her reasons of befriending and confiding in Elinor so quickly. Lucy had learned enough of Elinor's character (I think from Edward) to know she was nothing like Lucy herself, and so wouldn't resort to similar tactics as Lucy, but would conduct herself with honor and propriety instead.
Absolutely she knew. After all, in her “Dear John” letter to Edward, she says (I paraphrase) that she refuses to marry a man who’s obviously long been in love with someone else, and thus, felt herself free to latch onto Robert.
@@michaelodonnell824 Absolutely right! But still, she was nobody’s fool. Given her options in life, I have to (gag) reluctantly… almost… admire her. No, no, I can’t do it!
@@londongael414 Not too many here have much of anything to say in Lucy's favor, other than she was skillful in playing the game. Someone further up the string even gave her the greatest cut of all, implying she was behaving "like an American". I suppose I should be insulted, too, but I'm not. We don't understand her (Jane) or her characters as well as do our cousins across the pond, but we love her as deeply.
@@londongael414 I have to say, I feel less like I can blame Lucy for pushing whatever advantage she had than John and Fanny or Willoughby. In the case of those people, they all stood to inherit plenty of wealth and advantages (Willoughby lost that opportunity, but only because he had been a complete dick to Eliza Williams.) Lucy really didn't have much hope of living a comfortable and independent-ish life without marrying well. That doesn't make her a good person; just a little more understandable. But I don't remember getting to read or hear of her "Dear John" letter. Is it in the book? (It's been a long time since I read it.)
@@harringt100 A “dear John letter” is a figure of speech for a woman breaking up with a man, as Lucy does to Edward; there is no book/letter you are missing. :)
That was a very well thought out video, as usual, and wonderfully entertaining to unpack more about such an interesting and complex character. It leads me to believe that Lucy is absolutely aware of Edward's disinterestedness in herself. She mentions that Edward left her 'looking ill' and attributes the reason - to Eleanor - to his being upset at having left her. But the fact that she even noticed him looking ill is, I believe, testament to the fact that she knows he's unhappily engaged.
Thank you for this delightful exploration of one of Austen's most dimensional of secondary characters. Lucy is indeed sharp and even if her knowledge of Elinor were not perfect, her intuition and instincts for self preservation guides her unerringly to eliminate her gravest threat.
It seems likely that she had suspected about her, that's why she was trying so hard to win her friendship and spoke about her secret engagement. It looks like she was trying to provok Eleanor with everything she said about Edward. She desperately wanted to see her reaction.
She was so provoking too! I had seen that as a device to make Eleanor's suffering (under Sense) be thrown into sharper relief against her sister's suffering (under Sensibility).
In my mind Miss Steele is from the same mould as Vanity Fair's Miss Sharp. Two very determined young ladies who used their wits and charm, all they possessed, to improve their situation in life.
Well, I was pretty sure Lucy knew about Elinor, but it had not occurred to me that she had gotten herself to Exeter in the hopes of meeting her somehow. Of course, it's just what Lucy would do! Great analysis, as always, Dr. Cox!
Thank you once again, Octavia. I hadn't previously picked up on the clues to Lucy's machinations in order to meet Elinor, but it certainly explains why she singled out Elinor for sharing her secret. It's easy to imagine Edward's warm words to Lucy about his new acquaintance and how they were interpreted by her.
Oh, Lucy ABSOLUTELY knew about Elinor before she arrived. She knew there was a threat and she addressed that threat. Lucy didn't have a great life and she did what she had to do to make her situation better; she wouldn't have given that up for anything.
You bet she knew about the Dashwoods, especially Elinor. Everything Lucy says implies how close she is to Edward, even though she thinly disguises the connection as friends, at first. Could she be anymore gloating than she was when she brought Elinor into her "secret" engagement? In Mansfield Park, Austen describes marriage as a maneuvering business. Lucy could have given Maria Bertram lessons in how to get what she wanted! The main difference being Lucy was less picky about the person she gained. If they could provide safety, comfort, and some status Lucy was satisfied. Too bad for Maria that she was unaware that Henry Crawford didn't love her, or even like her. Lucy was definitely more capable of understanding what motivated the people she was in contact with. She must have had a complicated score card of everything each person could do for her and how she could get them to give it to her willingly. Scary😏.
@@unasperanza9803 He was the villain for Maria. He did disregard her feelings but she was hardly without fault. She did the same thing to Rushworth as Crawford did to her. It's not made forgivable because he wasn't very smart about people. Crawford and Maria are both wanting someone they don't understand and are only focused on themselves and whether or not they were happy. They couldn't understand why the other person wouldn't just agree to be what they wanted because they wanted them. The other person's needs or wants or feelings had no value to either of them.
I think yes, she did know, for all the reasons you've given, plus some supporting evidence that: Lucy is shown, later in the book, to be very cruel in her speech to Elinor, and early on she 'confides' to Elinor that she's so very jealous, she certainly would have noticed if he'd spoken about any woman more than another. I think Edward did in fact speak quite a lot about Elinor, and Lucy is trying to be hurtful by saying the opposite.
Oooh!! This is an intriguing theory!! I definitely believed before that Lucy knew all about Elinor and the danger she presented to the engagement with Edward, but I had never thought about how deep this all went. The way Jane Austen writes it, it really just sounds like Lucy and Anne "happened" to be in Exeter and made the "delightful discovery" that their cousin Mrs. Jennings was there. What machinations would Lucy have had to go through to figure out that Mrs. Jennings was staying at Barton Park, and frequented Exeter, and would be there on a certain day?? I wouldn't put any of it past conniving Lucy!
All I keep thinking, & couldn't put out of my mind after several readings of S&S, is how tragic for Eleanor to end up with 2 such sordid sisters-in-law! I'm sure their utter snobbiness would have kept them from their "poor relations" Edward & Elinor as often as possible, but how wretched for Elinor in particular to have to be related to those 2 insufferable women (3, if you count Mama Ferrars) by marriage.
I know it was honorable of Edward to keep his engagement with Lucy, but at least he could have told Elinor himself he was engaged while he was at Norland with her? There’s not much detail in the book about how him and Elinor having a “sort of understanding as lovers” but I really feel like he led her on and gave her hopes for a relationship which might be impossible since he’ll not break his engagement to Lucy out of honor.
In the movie he was trying to tell Elinor about Lucy but Fanny interrupted their conversation and told him to leave for London immediately as he was needed by their mother. Not sure about the book though.
Listening to your analysis of the relationship between Edward and Lucy reminded me of a distinction Jane Austen make about two types of love in her letter to her niece Fanny. Fanny asks if she should marry Mr. Plumtree. Jane responds: "You like him well enough to marry, but not well enough to wait ... nothing can be compared to the misery of being bound without love, bound to one and preferring another." This describes Edward's misery. Fanny listened to her aunt. Do you think S&S was on their minds?
I always imagined that while visiting in Plymouth, and in his more depressed mood, Edward forgot himself and his company and let slip the attractiveness of the Dashwoods, or maybe Eleanor in particular. But Lucy being a woman on the alert to any threat to her engagement, enlarged and as you said, possibly used this compliment to gain a more intimate acquaintance with Eleanor. I love this discussion!
Thank you Octavia, that was a very insightful analysis. I had always believed that Lucy must be aware of a possible affection between Edward and Elinor, but I'd assumed she'd just caught on to some vague, gossipy speculation from Sir John and/or Mrs Jennings. It had never occurred to me that the source may have been Edward, but your close reading is very persuasive that this is indeed the case. I can imagine Lucy asking her fiancé about his wider family, and Edward - who is nothing if not honest - being a little unguarded in his praise of Elinor. No wonder Lucy became suspicious and went to such lengths to engineer a meeting with the Dashwoods!
What I’d like to know is: why did Edward open his big mouth? If he spoke of Elinor in such a way as to put Lucy on her guard….why?! Or maybe it was more wheedling by Lucy, maybe she asked a ton of questions and got him to admit something he didn’t mean to. That seems more likely. 🤷🏻♀️
Fascinating video. I have wondered this but it has been a while since I read "Sense and Sensibility." I thought it was too convenient that Lucy managed to come meet them and happen to say the things that would be most hurtful/painful to Elinor (especially since she did not invite the confidence). I found this video and the texts you read convincing. It further demonstrates her ability to charm people to get what she wants, which we see later in her marriage to Robert Ferris. I love these videos. Thank you for making them. ❤️
I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of the video (and have kicked myself a couple of times for not stopping to ask important questions when reading S&S!). But I will say that I don't think that Lucy would have needed to feed Sir John the line about :the most beautiful creatures in the world." I feel that this kind of hackneyed phrasing is something Sir John would have come up with on his own as soon as he heard that the Steele sisters were curious about the Dashwoods.
I always look forward to your videos. They are so brilliant and get me to look at classic literature from all sorts of new angles. Thank you so much for making this channel!
The film made it clear they felt she knew. If that's good enough for Emma Thompson, it's good enough for me. Thank you for a well- reasoned discussion. ❤
In retrospect, one can sympathise with Lucy Steele's conniving. She would have staked her future on the promise of marriage to Edward. It is understandable that she would be indignant and jealous of a perceived rival. If the story had been written from her point of view, the reader would have sided with her.
I'd like to know if Edward fell out of love with Lucy before or after meeting Elenore. Did he know how manipulative she was before she ditched him for his brother? It's incredibly selfish of him to fall for and lead on Elenore when he was engaged to someone else.
I'm not sure if Edward ever really "Loved" Lucy - in Persuasion, Captain Wentworth, after Louisa's fall, comes to realise that people "Expect" that he and Louisa will marry. He leaves, to give her time to recover from her fall, but equally prepared to "do the honourable thing" if it turns out that Louisa also expected that he would marry her. In the early 19th century, "Expectations" could arise, leading to a "forced" marriage, especially if the Man was "honourable" (If you were a Willoughby or a Wyckham, you just abandoned them!). Edward repeatedly shows himself to be honourable - he will marry Lucy because of his "Promise" even when it leads to him being disinherited. So, it is POSSIBLE that Lucy engineered a scenario, so that young Edward (and remember he was little more than a schoolboy when Lucy and he contracted their engagement) felt Compelled to do the "honourable thing" and propose marriage.
Good question. My assumption was that the engagement was entered in to while both were quite young. Perhaps it was exciting to do something so secretive and against the wishes of the family, Over the years the attraction faded. Edward felt honour'-bound to not end it as that would destroy Lucy's reputation, as well as being a bit caddish of himself.
Thank you, this answered a nagging question I've had ever since watching the Emma Thompson version back in 1995 (I've read the book too, but only once or twice decades ago). Having watched several dozens f your videos now and feeling a little better informed about Austen's style and the time period I think Lucy, a sharp savvy creature fighting for survival definitely perceived Elinor as at least a potential threat and she wanted to meet her to find out if she truly was or not. Women aren't stupid, they notice little things, and she knows Edward and the precariousness of her position. Lucy probably immediately felt a difference in Edward's affections/feelings toward her when he visits after meeting Elinore.
My great-grandmother was from Devon. My grandmother was born in Plymouth. They came to America in 1906. They told us over the years so much about their life there. ❤️
Oh yes. I imagine that Edward wasn't as circumspect and guarded as he thought he'd been - perhaps mentioning Elinor a bit too often, or looking a bit 'fond' when he did so. Something like that. She seems not to have hung about before scooting off the Exeter and managing to wangle an invitation to Barton Park. It's a while since I read S&S, but I remember wondering whether the Steele girls really were related to Mrs Jennings. Unless I'm misremembering, she seems to have relied entirely on what the Steeles said for 'discovering' the connection.
I keep thinking about how all this works out for Elinor and Edward after their marriage- their relations with their “in-laws.” I wonder if the Farris family ever accepts them back on some level- just communication anyway-, and Lucy seems like the kind of person to strengthen or retain ties with the Dashwoods and with Elinor and Edward and with everyone, really, in order to take advantage of whatever goes on in any corner of the family and strengthen the family dynamics in general. Edward and Elinor wouldn’t turn their back on family either and would likely seek whatever reconciliation was possible, but how would Elinor and Edward endure the differences in money over time and the differences in opportunities they could offer their children versus what the cousins could be offered. It would be very painful in the years ahead, I would imagine.
I just listened to it and I believe it says that Mrs. Ferrars deigned to visit them once but did not insult them by pretending they were favorites. So I would assume a polite and civil relationship with them but not close. It also gives the impression that Lucy and Fanny fought often, often including their husbands
When I first read the book,I thought that Lucy had gathered enough from Edward’s visit to make her uneasy that there was someone, in a general way, and only became seriously worried, when Mrs Jennings and Sir John were openly joking in front of her, calling Edward Ferrars Elinor’s lover, and that this was what made her take the decisive step of bringing Elinor into her confidence. However after watching this video, I am convinced that Lucy had been worried about Elinor beforehand, and had engineered her visit to friends in Exeter in order to “accidentally” meet up with her distant relations there. She might actually have known about her connection to Mrs Jennings and Lady Middleton and been the one to inform Mrs Jennings and Sir John of it when she “ran into them” in town. Lucy is such a great villain because on the one hand, she is a user who doesn’t care whose corpse she’ll step over on her way to success, and on the other, she’s a young woman in desperate circumstances. One might even say of her, as of Jane Fairfax, that “the world is not hers nor is the world’s law.” I think even Jane Austen had a grudging respect for Lucy.
Interesting that you compare Lucy with Jane, two women with secret engagements. And yes, both are well-bred young women with no other assets who are fearful of poverty. I want to pay attention now to Jane's movements and how Miss Bates speaks of her. Did Jane distrust Emma and was she also working behind the scenes? I hadn't thought so but Jane plays her cards close to her heart, unlike Lucy.
@@TiffyVella1 You might be interested in reading Jane Fairfax by Joan Aiken. It’s a retelling of Emma from the point of view of Jane Fairfax. I really enjoyed it.
@@TiffyVella1 Jane is much more refined than Lucy, though, so u don't see her doing any behind the scenes shenanigans except voicing her (very reasonable) displeasure at Frank
I think Edward came close to telling Elinor all about Lucy before he left Norland, and I wouldn't put it past him to have confessed to Lucy that he had fallen in love with another and that he might have offered to release Lucy from their engagement if she wished, at which of course she would have declared she still wanted to marry. It just seems to me that Edward is honest enough that he would want her to know his feelings had changed.
I don't think Edward was as direct as that about his feelings especially given the fact he had not confided to Elinor his feelings for her. I think Lucy could read him like a book and noticed that he was in love with this friend of his that he met in Norland during a conversation about his visit to Norland.
It's been almost 7 decades since I read Sense and Sensibility (most of 8th grade was spent with the English lady authors of the late 18th and early 19th century and a teacher who encouraged independent thought among her mostly female students). However. I remember that, when Lucy Steele met Eleanor Dashwood, she remarked that she had heard much of her, and not from Eleanor's neighbor, but a "completely different source" by whom she was praised. Then Lucy confides that she's secretly engaged to Eleanor's sister-in-law's brother. Does my memory serve me well?
This is such an interesting instance of the way Jane Austen constructs her support framework under pinning the events that propel her narratives. Critics often accuse her of relying on coincidences to forward the plots but instances like this show that to be much less the case. These structures can also be discovered in her other novels. The gentile population of the UK was very small at that time which makes coincidences so much more frequent in any case. I now live in a place where the population is rather small and coincidences happen all the time, in fact it is essential to be cautious in conversation as the connections between people can be very embarrassing. People who live in larger population areas may not be aware of this.
It would be great if you could make a video about Edmund Bertram’s attitude towards Fanny. It is so strange and unclear… I would love to know your opinion
Me too. He never seems worth Fanny's adoration. He was the person who was nicest to her in a fairly narrow social circle but he never had too many competitors.
Honestly both Edmund Bertram and Edward Ferrers seem a bit unworthy of their heroines. Neither one are my favorite Jane Austen heroes, even if the books they’re in are great.
Absolutely love your videos and insights! Always makes me want to re-read so many novels. I wish your videos were required “research” for Jane Austen movie adaptations!
Everything Lucy does is like a spider spinning a web around Elinor to trap Elinor in her own honor code. As Elinor says to Marianne "It was told me, -- it was in a manner forced on me by the very person herself whose prior engagement ruined all my prospects; and told me, as I thought, with triumph." A plan maneuvered and cooly executed by Lucy Steele.
I am always astonished at how complex and intricately detailed Jane Austen's characters are. My sister and I often find Austen characters in people we know . We know a Mr Collins, Mr Willoughby and indeed a Lucy Steele within our circle of acquaintances. I am very interested to hear your opinion on how well Austen books are adapted into series or movies. I was extremely disappointed by 2020 Emma and although I am looking forward to Persuasion I am disappointed by the look of Wentworth...he looks more like a pirate than a Captain.
Had no idea there was a new Persuasion film coming. Looking at the trailer it looks like it is going to be horrible. Seems like they have totally misunderstood Anne Elliots personality and ended up making her more into an wannebe Emma or Elisabeth and crossed it with Fleabag storytelling. I'm sure it will be funny in itself, but if you love Anne Elliot for Anne Elliot I think it is going to be a hard watch.
I've felt for a while that the characters of Lucy Steele and Becky Sharp (Vanity Fair) have a lot in common. Published around 35 years after Sense and Sensibility, it seems to me as if Lucy was made a protagonist in her own novel, and how a woman of her abilities would do if dependent only on her wits to make a life. I'd love to see a comparison of these two.
I have always believed that Lucy knew about Elinor before her visit to Barton and got herself invited to meet the Dashwood sisters. I also like your interpretation that Lucy completely fabricated the comment about the sisters' beauty. To me, it seems inconsistent with Edward's character to say something their beauty, let alone something so over the top. Even if he weren't engaged to Lucy, that seems out of character. Love your videos, Dr. Cox. I've been reading and rereading Jane Austen my whole life and you've added so much depth in my understanding of her works. Thank you!
This is all so interesting. Do you think Austen’s novels were written with the intention that they would be read and re-read, with more nuances being revealed each time? Or do you think modern readers, for whatever reason, miss some of the detail and need the re-reads? Thank you for the videos, they are great fun to listen to and must be fantastic for students.
I have absolutely no doubt that Lucy set out to accidentally meet Mrs Jennings in Exeter. It explains how easily they could leave their hosts to head to Barton Park. As for the Dashwoods' being the 'most beautiful creatures in the world', I think this was ventured forth from Lucy herself and increased by degrees through her conversation with Sir John Middleton. There's just no way Edward said anything so demonstrative, especially to Lucy. Her sharp little ears pricked up when he mentioned Elinor - maybe his voice softened. It wouldn't have taken much for Lucy to pick up on the vibe. Edward had probably never mentioned a young lady before to Lucy. So, I think in mentioning the Dashwood sisters' beauty to John Middleton, she was testing the waters, "Oh, are they really so pretty?" His enthusiastic reply would have confirmed her jealousies and made her more determined than ever to see Elinor for herself. I imagine the 'most beautiful creatures in the world' phrase came from John Middleton himself.
Thank you for another awesome lecture! I always wondered if Lucy was really indeed a relation of Mrs. Jennings. She was so good at reading people it made me think that maybe she attached herself to whomever Mrs. Jennings told her about in their initial meeting.
Ah- but Plymouth is in fact mentioned by Edward early in the book when he first meets Eleanor at Norland and tells her he had been a student in Plymouth.
Your analysis makes so much sense.... definitely in line with Lucy's character as an avid orchestrator of her own social rise. She would be quite focused on Elinor as a rival, and would definitely go to such lengths to protect the social and economic opportunity of her marriage to Edward
Lucy was a little schemer. As soon as Edward was disowned by his mother and stripped of his inheritance, she went with Robert the brother who got Edward's inheritance.
Caroline Bingley wishes she had the same level of skill to get what she wants as Lucy Steele. Lucy succeeds in making Elinor a false friend, and warning her off Edward. Caroline succeeds in making Elizabeth make fun of her with her wit, and in making Darcy openly declare his admiration of Elizabeth's "fine eyes", figure, and love of reading.
Lucy was protecting her future. After all, Edward WAS engaged to her. He was young and stupid, but she never held a gun to his head. Caroline Bingley wasn't engaged to Darcy, or being courted by him. IMO, he thought of her as Bingley's sister. Later, I'm pretty sure he came to dislike her, when she kept with her snotty remarks. (Which may have reminded him of HIS snotty remarks)
@@jmarie9997 For sure, Lucy had more claim than Caroline. I just think that Caroline would admire Lucy's skill at trapping her chosen man (men) and neutralizing her rival. Poor Caroline was frustrated at every turn.
Haha right. Caroline just ended up making Elizabeth look even better by comparison. I love the line Austen puts in the novel about how angry or jealous people don’t always behave logically, in reference to Caroline Bingley. It’s so true too!
I also always believed that Lucy Steele knew about Elinor. This close reading also confirms my growing belief that Edward Ferrars isn't such wonderful gentleman. Knowing that he was engaged, he shouldn't have been courting Elinor during his stay at Norland. He also shouldn't have visited the Dashwoods in Barton right after visiting Lucy in Plymouth. If he truly honored his commitments, he wouldn't have made any kind of advances or shown any interest in Elinor at Norland. Or, if he truly fell in love with Elinor, he should have broke up his engagement with Lucy immediately. The fact that Edward courted Elinor while engaged to Lucy and didn't break things off with either one of them, continuing to see them both, shows to me that he is no gentleman. He is not as bad as Willoughby by far, but he is not the hero that Colonel Brandon is either.
@@londongael414 True! But maybe that's Jane Austen creating a world where women are the ones who are actually in control unlike her actual world at the time. Or, at least how we perceive her actual world. Who really knows. Maybe it wasn't as male dominated as we think. 🤔 Anyway, good observation! 😊
To be fair, for a man to break off an engagement was dishonorable. It could have either ruined Lucy, or left him open to a breach of Promise suit. A woman, on the other hand could break an engagement.
@@98823rochelle Oh, I'm not defending him. He behaved VERY badly. I reread the book, and the chapter where Elinor finds out - and twists herself into a pretzel defending Edward's behavior to herself - is a wonderful example of Elinor being a smug, superior prat. In my opinion.
Agreed! Given he seems to have developed a habit of trying to have his cake & eat it too, so to speak, I can't help wondering if his affection for Elinor would've survived their marriage...? And whether she could have truly been happy with a husband who, although fairly respectable, seems to have lacked a certain degree of spine? 🤔 She mightve managed to inspire him to a certain level of greater personal honour, but I'm not sure what he really brings her in terms of complementing her character?
Brilliant! Once again, Dr. Cox has ferreted out a gem of Austen's mastery of intrigue, feminine wiles, Austen's profound perspicacity about what lies behind Lucy's obvious faux-friendliness toward Elinor. Behind the polite viel of feminine charm and manners lies the villain, Lucy Steele, as she (Lucy) at the hand of Austen, lures us into a certain sympathy for her plight, despite our painful awareness of her complete insuitability to Edward's sensitivity. In the end, with rapier ruthlessness, Lucy drives the knife in by dumping Edward for Robert and the Ferrar's fortune. Elinor's release comes at the cost of suffering Lucy's cruelty, knowing she must continue to be the strong one her whole life, even with Edward, whose youthful foolishness ensnared him into a five-year long torture. We are comforted by the thought that Lucy ends up with Robert as much as Elinor wins Edward. Robert, a creature as fake and vapid as Lucy, surely they will torture, deceive, manipulate and torment each other, all the while reveling in each other's wiles. How sweet. As for the "irrevocable settlement" of the Ferrar's fortune on Robert, can we be assured that a creature as vain, insipid and fickle as Mrs. Ferrars won't changer her mind again? We are left wishing it vaguely, but Austen is a master at getting us to conjure "vague" thoughts that turn out to be true.
@@londongael414 JA was too smart to give her villains (or simple love rivals) the punishment fans want and modern authors often give. Willoughby didn't fall into a bear trap. Robert and Lucy ended up wealthy and the favorite of his mother. (And will probably inherit most of her remaining estate) Caroline Bingley (who is ten times worse than Lucy, IMHO) remained welcome at Pemberly. Mr Elliot will likely inherit Sir Walter's title.
I love your channel and learning more about novels I have loved for years. I would love if you did more analysis on Wuthering Heights, you really made me see the novel through a different lens and appreciate it. Plus your hair and outfit are stunning today. You look so light and summery.
Sounds like a case of “mention-itis” maybe, on the part of Edward. I loved this video. Thank you for your wonderful work in putting your finger on the pulse of Austen!
PS: Sorry, forgot to say I am subscribing .....nice to have English spoken at a right pace as opposed to twenty (or more) to the dozen on some channels. We are not used to running speech as my nephew says. My 'O' Level had Pride and Prejudice but no Jane Austen in 'A' Level.
I want to say how much I appreciate your editing around the commercials. Thank you so much for having complete sentences and words! Some channels insert breaks in the middle of a word or to where it cuts into a sentence and it’s not a pleasant experience. So thank you for the intellectual stimulation, and the great editing, both!
I suspect that Lucy laid her trap for Edward from the first and deliberately maneuvered him into saying or doing something that would entrap him. Even though Edward was not the brightest crayon in the box, even dashing but clueless Captain Wentworth felt he was morally obligated to marry Louisa when he learned that some people had assumed an secret attachment with her. (Thank goodness Louisa bonked her head!).
I would love to hear your thought on Fanny Dashwood and particularly her treatment early in the novel where she deprives the Dash wood girls and their mother of their home.
Yikes! I can read of Lucy Steele with rueful admiration for her cunning and her fast and loose playing with societal norms, but Fanny Dashwood is truly horrible. Selfish, greedy, vicious, cutting; I suppose she is no worse (?) than Willoughby, and probably not as bad since she doesn't actually assault anyone (not really). But if you had asked her to take a crust of bread from the hand of a starving child, and there was money in it, she wouldn't have any qualms about doing so. I'll bet the witch even attended church on Sunday. I'm also wondering what kind of family Fanny was from. Is she merely a much more monstrous version of Caroline Bingley, daughter of a prosperous tradesman that married up and suddenly acquired some very fine airs and manners, but could only act like Herman Goering in some helpless victim's art gallery?
It was very evident to me that Lucy knew that Edward was into her with the things she said to Elinor. I was just confused about how she could have known
In defence of Lucy Steele: a) she's penniless: four years prior to the main action of the novel, Edward, who is the heir to a very wealthy estate, proposes to her, but the engagement must remain secret for fear of disinheritance; come on, who on earth would turn down that opportunity? b) she finds out (it's actually not clear how, but probably from something that E has said) that E has met young women (aged 19, 16-going-on-17 and 14), one of whom (the eldest) is a potential rival (in answer to your question - she certainly seems to know that Elinor might be a rival - the whole point of telling Elinor of her engagement is to tell her "He's mine - so hands off!"); c) but doesn't she dump E when he is disinherited? - Er - no: we are specifically told by Anne (Nancy) that Ed. offered to break the engagement when disinherited and she refused; further, when Colonel Brandon offers Ed the living, Lucy starts planning to increase the tithes, and nick some of Col B's eggs and milk; d) well, didn't she try to entrap Robert F? - again, no: the Ferrars mob want to persuade Lucy to dump Ed and Robert is to be the persuader: if Lucy decides that R is a better bet than Ed, and chats him up - well, the fault, surely lies with the F family? I have no illusions in Lucy: she is somebody I would prefer as an enemy (on the Godfather principle: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer). And allowing Thomas (the Dashwoods' servant) to think that she's married to Ed was a very spiteful trick. But what is a penniless girl to do? - she's got to eat, and if in so doing she creates havoc in the Ferrars family - well, it couldn't happen to a more deserving crew!
Lucy Steele is even sneakier than Becky Sharpe from Vanity Fair. I've thought of them ask similar, but Lucy is smarter and more strategic. Becky Sharpe latches on to one rich man, then shows her true colors by ripping off a landlord with him. But Lucy will never do anything she could be criticized for by society. And while she limited Edward's options, she kept her own open.
I feel like it’s pretty likely that Lucy knew about Elinor beforehand. It seemed like she came knowing right away how she was going to enter act with Elinor and what the conversations would consist of and the tones and attitudes she would take when speaking with Elinor, especially when the two of them just happen to be alone, or in a situation where they are able to at least talk privately. I haven’t watched to full video yet, so I’m super excited to hear your thoughts! But I decided to comment first to see how close my initial thoughts are to yours. ☺️ I’m always so excited when you upload!!
I have a question that I’m hoping one of the many Austen fans can answer. People are saying that if Edward broke off his engagement to Lucy Steele her reputation would be ruined. This is why he was going to go through with it until she dumped him for his brother. However, if the engagement was a secret - how would anyone know if Edward broke it off?
Great commentary, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts - I'm subscribed!!! Your commentary had me In agreement right up until you suggested that Lucy Steel's flattery planted in the mouth of Sor John would have had Eleanor Dashwood interested enough to meet up. My own interpretation of Eleanor's character has her rendered as someone who would not be bent or swayed by such flattery. Maybe mildly curious, but only as to meet a distant cousin. Perhaps that's the real reason Eleanor met Lucy, whatever Lucy's intentions and designs were?
Oh I absolutely think Lucy knew about Eleanor before she came to Barton. She was already jealous of her and you can tell in her mannerisms and the fact that she wants to take Eleanor into her confidence and spill the beans about her engagement to Edward. I want to know if you have done ever done a close reading of the segment where Edward loses his inheritance because of his engagement to Lucy, but then Lucy breaks off her engagement to Edward and married his brother who has gained Edwards inheritance due to the engagement. Why is the brother able to keep all of the inheritance, When he marries Lucy?
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I always thought that maybe Lucy likely manipulated her way to Exeter (based on the expediency of their removal there from Portsmouth so quickly after Edward’s departure) to then find a way to Barton Park.
I also thought when Edward was in a hurry to be gone from visiting at Barton a week, it was likely because he’d received a letter from Lucy indicating she was heading that direction.
When Lucy shows correspondence with Edward to Elinor it makes sense that she’d show her the most recent communications, which she received “just before she left for Exeter” meaning her response to him was likely just before her departure or upon arrival in Exeter. Notably, he plans to go elsewhere (London or Norland) to escape the neighborhood.
It is also possible that’s why Lucy suddenly “gave him a lock of my hair set in a ring when he was at Longstaple last” which seems an odd thing to do on a whim after 4 years of engagement (he gave her his picture 3 years prior).
I’ve always re-read her as extremely manipulative.
I think that Lucy not only knew about Elinor and her relationship with Edward, she knew enough about Elinor's character to realize that entrusting her with the secret of their engagement was the best way to steer Elinor away from Edward. Any other woman could have and would have used that secret to destroy the engagement, but Elinor does not. Lucy knew just how to use Elinor's moral character as a weapon against her. Over the years, I have developed a grudging appreciation/admiration for the character of Lucy.
Some women and gay men have a fascination for bitches. Lucy Steele is a bitch. But She is the right villain. Edward is such a coward. Fortunately he was desherited and She showed her true character and he finally got rid of her.
Yes.. Lucy Steele was just doing what a woman of "low societal rank" would do to ensure herself a comfortable future.. thinking with her head and nothing more.. where as the Dashwood girls are very inclined to be genuinely sincere in their feelings and emotions.. a sense of morality and pure hearts.. and not opportunistic like Lucy Steele was.. but.. it's hard to dislike her when we can't fault a person for practicing self-preservation
@@kimberlee8567 she's a foil for Elinor to make Elinor seem less cold hearted. On the one hadyou have Marianne clinging to everlasting true love. But Jane very much favours heart over head, so she writes from Elinor's perspective and is more critical of Marianne. Hwoever, she wants to make Elinor seem to have some level of humanity and compassion, so she brings in Lucy who is only guided by money and comes a cross as a bitch, even if she gets what she wants.
@@MsJubjubbirdI certainly never saw Elinor as lacking in compassion! Rigidly controlled about her own feelings, yes; but tender about those of others. She showed herself concerned with the feelings of her mother, of Marianne, of Colonel Brandon (when the younger people are ignoring or mocking him and she seeks him out to ask him to tell her about his travels, so he will feel valued), and even about Willoughby when he shows up suddenly, asking after Marianne during her illness.
@@norarivkis2513 Elinor = 90% sense, 10% sensibility
Marianne= 0.1% sense, 99.9% sensibility 😅
Throughout the entire novel, Lucy shows herself to be quite adept at monitoring the reactions of others in order to manipulate the circumstances in her favor. She undoubtedly noticed Edward's feelings and took action to counter any threat.
Yes, and she reads Elinor very correctly to be an honorable woman who would put her own feelings aside rather than break up an engagement. Lucy was very clever to do it in the way of confiding in Elinor so that Elinor even becomes a champion for Lucy and Edward. The one person where Lucy very much miscalculated though, maybe because she succeeded so easily with Elinor first, was Fanny Dashwood. Although that mishap on her part didn't hinder her at all.
@@annika5893yes, and that temporary reversal is hysterically funny, but even then Lucy manages to garner sympathy for herself!!
@@londongael414 I had not thought of that before!
Agree with you!!
@@londongael414 This is interesting: I'm not sure that Lucy thinks she can get Fanny "on-side", or that it would make much difference to Mrs F if she did: but the invitation by Fanny, the pleasant treatment of Lucy and the snubbing of Elinor at that party give Lucy the opportunity to gloat over Elinor. Both know the real reason for all this occurring (ie that the family are worried that Edward is too interested in Elinor and wish to humiliate her in any way possible - whereas Mrs F doesn't see Lucy as a threat), but neither would say it out loud - Lucy because it would prevent her from gloating, and Elinor because it would seem to be like jealousy. Elinor's interest in Edward has not been admitted to Lucy at this stage, but Lucy knows of it, and Elinor is fully aware of this. One other point - Lucy has surely picked up on the reference to "Miss Morton", and so realises that this is a person whom the family might have in mind for Edward.
Para 2 and 3: I doubt that Lucy had her eye on Robert - (a) she doesn't know that Mrs Ferrars is going to settle on Robert irrevocably, following the engagement coming out, (b) she knows nothing of Robert, so cannot know whether she would be able to "get off with" him anyway, (please forgive the colloquialism) and (c) the opportunity to "get" Robert (after the irrevocable settlement is made on R) arises because the lovely Ferrars family think that R might be able to persuade Lucy to dump Edward: she does - but not quite in the way that Mrs F., John and Fanny expect. I think that they rather deserve Lucy.
I think one of Jane Austen’s most consistent notes that I’ve noticed is to be wary of over sharers! Wickham in P&P and Lucy here are both guilty of dropping a ton of personal information to near strangers. It’s often done with nefarious ends... it reminds me of people saying not to trauma dump in the comments today
I have always assumed that Lucy arrived in Barton with the express intention of blocking any sort of relationship formation between Elenor and Edward. It was the only explanation I could think up as to why she was so intent on being friends with someone she didn’t know and who’s companionship would do little to elevate her status.
What I remember about reading S&S is that there is a lot of text dedicated to how Lucy got herself invited to Barton. I came away with the impression that she worked very hard to work her social connections to get the invitation. I never realized that Edward had come directly from Lucy to Elinor before. I think my lack of knowledge of English geography hindered me there. Did she know about Elinor? Absolutely and she set straight to the task of protecting her investment in Edward.
I think Edward tried to break up with her before going to stay with Elinor, so that he could ask Elinor to marry him. He is no match for Lucy's machinations, he might not even know that's what they are.
No. Edward would never try to ditch Lucy having made his promise-even Fanny understands this about Edward.
@@kahkah1986 Edward had every possible means and reason to cut of his engagement to Lucy. The problem is the 'alternative' was hardly any better for his family. He also chose to keep his word because the society that day worked like this and breaking once's word could cost a dual and possibly death or disfigurement. Lucy will be protected from the same judgement as she's married Robert who is now the sole heir of the vast fortune and she found a way to ingratiate herself to Mrs Ferrars, the mother, and will probably be able to work her way with Fanny once Mrs Ferrars is dead.
@julijakeit No, Lucy in theory had power of refusal, and presumably Edward appealed to her better nature (we were young and rash, we are adults now) without abruptly breaking it off, although given that his family urge him to do so, this would strongly imply that society did not in fact work that way I.e. he could break it off. While Brandon does fight a duel over Eliza, he is a soldier, an army colonel, and it is much less likely Lucy has a male relative to call Edward out; that would make him a coward if that was all he was frightened of. Edward's family is extremely wealthy; he could try and pay Lucy off should she try and blackmail him with a law suit, something that would be a little more likely.
Lucy is such a fascinating character. She might be cunning and even maybe a little bitchy, but I really love her hability to read the room, adapt to every other situation and manipulating without really doing it. She's a survivor, somehow, playing with the social cards she had and worked so well with them. What I really love about her arc in the story is that any other author by the time would have punished her for her ways, but Austen allows her to thrive.
Well put. She’s certainly not presented as admirable, but good grief… what other options does she realistically have to not be living hand to mouth on charity? She doesn’t even seem to have the qualifications to be a governess ( too ‘low’ ) or enter one of the trades that did accept some women.
@@archervine8064 Agreed. I don't think she's a particularly nice person, but given her circumstances, I can't be too hard on her behaviour. The one thing I will fault her for was sending the misleading message to Elinor, suggesting that she had married Edward, not Robert. Given Lucy was now married to a wealthy husband, it wasn't necessary. I suppose that she'd schemed for so long, that she had become that person.
I think in this way she reminds me a bit of Mrs Bennett... she got a husband above herself in station.... possibly the same way
Agreed
@@ArtingFromScratch Lucy married 'above herself' like Mrs Bennet, but there I think the resemblance ends. Firstly, Mrs Bennet is not very clever, unlike Lucy Steele. Although she is certainly not above scheming, she is not subtle enough to bring it off succesfully. Secondly there is no hint in P&P that Mr Bennet was in any way ensnared by her. He was simply infatuated with her good looks and high spirits (and lived to regret it)
I've always felt that Lucy stampeded to Elinor using any possible means the moment she thought Edward might be looking at another woman. She says herself she's incredibly jealous and I think it's painfully obvious that statement is true. Edward is her ticket to a fancy life, and she's hanging on by her fingernails with a knife in her teeth. I've always been extremely disappointed there isn't a much more detailed recounting of exactly how she managed to connive her way onto Edward's brother the moment the money was his, and the fall out in the family of her getting the better of the mother in law that had gone to such drastic measures to get rid of her. I think a retelling of the story from Lucy's point of view into a movie could be absolutely hilarious if written right. Watching this charming and unsubtle Cinderella-/ Lolita-like gold-digger get her rich husband with the rest of Sense and Sensibility playing around her in the background of her machinations would be wonderful, I think.
I like that idea! Instead of disliking Lucy in favor of Elinor, I find myself rooting for her and loving how much she actually gets away with. I want to see Fanny’s face when she realizes she’s stuck with Lucy, and the brother she prefers is going to be a country Vicar in a loving marriage.
that sounds amazing!
That's basically the plot of Vanity Fair.
Lucy could be a Becky Sharpe character!!!
That would be a great movie
Oh, Miss Lucy Steele definitely knew. I have been wrestling with my feelings about Lucy since I watched your video 'What does Jane Austen’s Lucy Steele tell us about Regency Society? SENSE AND SENSIBILITY analysis'. Your video made me think of her as being used as a foil to show the vapidity of the society she worked her way up into - which absolutely. However, honestly, I get incensed whenever I read the horribly awkward scene where Lucy is visiting Elinor, and Edward comes to visit, and Lucy won't go away - I'm entirely on Marianne's side of that argument. And her digs at Elinor make me want to stomp about in a huff, as I really do just adore Elinor. I know she's not perfect but I do like her so much and so I feel all fluffed up like an angry hen when Lucy's being cutting to Elinor.
I’ve been hoping you would cover this topic! Lucy is such an interesting yet horrible person, but you can understand her fear of poverty in Regency England. Jane Austen was so good at coming up with interesting characters.
I don't think Lucy is at all horrible; she is very much the practical woman, and she always knows which side of the loaf is buttered. JA must have known quite a few like Lucy. Mrs. Ferrars, Miss Lucy Steele as was, is a cat with sharp claws and long teeth, but she sounds and looks so sweet. Just like Jezebel.
@@kevinrussell1144 Lucy Steele is definitely a product of her time, not denying that. But the way she immediately married Edwards brother right after they broke off their engagement is pretty cold hearted even for the time. She’s one of the types to smile in your face while stabbing you in the back. Now we can argue she may not have been this way if society would’ve been different in Regency England. Even with that being said, she’s not the kind of person I would want to be around much lol. (Edited for spelling errors)
@@jessica_jam4386 I'm guessing you can STEELE find lots of Lucys shopping in London even as we type. JA didn't fabricate the original out of thin air, and she (if with us today) would notice if the muslin gown on this new Lucy fit her ill or well.
@@jessica_jam4386 Well, she had to grab Robert while she still could. She couldn't count on him to hold on to an engagement.
@@kevinrussell1144 sure, there are still, or “Steele”😅 plenty of women with personalities similar to Lucy Steeles who exist today. I wouldn’t compare them exactly to her though, because Lucy or her real life counterparts, didn’t have the options women have now. And being poor in the that era was truly miserable and much worse then being poor in western countries today.
There's also that whole part of the later conversation between Lucy and Eleanor in which Eleanor herself thinks that Lucy says ("with meaning", if I'm remembering the text right) that "if he had spoken more about a certain person" (again, paraphrasing). It's one of the points in that conversation that Eleanor appears to pick up on as evidence for her conclusion that Lucy is aware that Edward wants to be released from the engagement. I've always read that particular line of text to mean that Edward DID talk about Eleanor while visiting Lucy at Plymouth, and that Lucy was feeling VERY threatened by Edward's feelings for Eleanor before she'd even visited Exeter.
Thank you for the reading. It is always fascinating to witness over and over again the meticulous filigree with which Jane Austen paints a picture of a person using social conventions to influence their fate. I often think of this quote at the end that sums up Lucy’s character so well: “The whole of Lucy’s behaviour in the affair, and the prosperity which crowned it, therefore, may be held forth as a most encouraging instance of what an earnest, an unceasing attention to self-interest, however its progress may be apparently obstructed, will do in securing every advantage of fortune, with no other sacrifice than that of time and conscience. “ Once again, she nails it.
"Sense & Sensibility (& Selfishness)"
I loved this too. You can get ahead by being a selfish suck-up, if you don't mind selling your soul! 😆
I think Lucy Steele is brilliant in the American sense - extremely bright as well as extremely ambitious. We see this as she realizes exactly how honorable Elinor is, and uses this to keep Elinor silent - if she hadn't taken her into confidence, Elinor could have ruined everything. We see this later as she first gains Richard's love and then his mother's - so that the woman who "forced" Mrs Ferrars to disown her eldest son became the favored child, in Austen's own words.
Such a person would be more than capable of perceiving exactly how her betrothed felt for Elinor - and what sort of person Elinor was _ and make sure that she was silenced by the very act of taking Elinor into her confidence. Perhaps her only match in Austen would be William Elliot, except I think she really does love her sister.
And without a shred of actual empathy for how individuals might actually feel.
She and Robert Ferrars deserve each other!
It's something I have considered before, but your close reading of Austen's style of exposition in the early novels makes it very clear...yes, I think she did. Lucy Steele is a fairly cunning person as she comes across in the text, and she'd be alert to how Edward spoke about another woman...and would then manoeuver to make the acquaintance of her 'rival' in any way she could.
Cunning Lucy, she kept her friends close, but her enemies even closer!
Wow. Makes perfect sense. Lucy is so …. argh!!!! To a point you can’t blame her. The society she’s in and the position she was born into mean she is not far from pretty grinding poverty. To marry well is her only way out of that being a possibility, and she knows she doesn’t have anything but herself to work with. So she works within the confines of the society to give herself the best shot at that that she sees, and she plans to protect that shot at all costs. When Edward is cut off, she knows exactly what sort of life they would have instead, as Mrs Jenkins anticipates. So she goes hard for Robert instead. She knows she’s pretty and that she can flatter, and she uses that to its max to get him. Gotta admire the grind I guess! But ugh, she is why I have a hard time te-reading this book, because she makes me so angry!
Agree to a point - in the end, Edward is free, and Robert will thrive under Lucy's "tutelage".
I can completely agree with you.
In this novel, Austen ensures that the Villain WINS - Lucy got everything she wanted - Fortune, Position, Marriage - and, to an extent (though few critics appreciate it), this is an Austen trait - far from the moralizing of the Victorian period, where the "Good" thrive and the "Evil" get their eventual comeuppance, Austen often closes her novels NOT punishing the Villains. Look at "Lady Susan", for example, where a COMPLETELY ruthless woman succeeds in all her plans, eventually. Or even in S&S, Willoughby, who seduces and abandons the underage young Eliza, ends up in a wealthy marriage - no punishment for his many wrongs.
There is little doubt that the Victorians would certainly have seen this novel as "Wicked"!
@@michaelodonnell824 I don’t know if the Victorians would have been against it really, but by the “villains” not ending up punished, Austen is actually making a more powerful statement against society than them getting some sort of comeuppance. She’s saying “Look at these people being successful and question if they are actually good people.” Pretty powerful message I think.
@@londongael414 I dunno, she’s able to dress well but is embarrassed by her sister’s free discussion of how she does it cheaply. They spend time with relatives with no indication of where their home is. Sure Ann is content with, say, a doctor, but even that life wouldn’t be guaranteed to be comfortable. Even the Dashwoods end up in a bad spot because of the caprice of an old man, despite having been related to someone so well off. Life was more precarious for women than for men. And at this time, the middle class was still fairly weak, not as robust as it would grow to in the Victorian times, so it would have been easier to fall out of it.
To be clear, I still hate Lucy Steele with every fiber of my being. But I also get where she’s coming from.
@@londongael414 Thinking about it, it’s interesting that she also doesn’t give Eleanor the super rich happy ending that is common in a lot of other fiction. She loves Edward for who he is, and he reward for being good is him in his most authentic self. It’s a pretty powerful message that being good isn’t always rewarded with the 100% complete perfect happy ending, but instead with a personal happy ending. Even if she didn’t end up with Edward, she knew she didn’t have anything to regret in her conduct. And that’s part of what Marianne has to learn.
Very interesting video. Thank you. It's clear in the book that Lucy Steele is an expert manipulator of people especially men. I agree that the thrust of the story is her managing to 'catch' Edward and then hold on to him at all costs - unless and until she jumps ship when she finds someone richer. However, there is I think something gratuitously spiteful in the way she treats Elinor that cannot just be explained by wanting to warn her off Edward. Elinor is at the receiving end of the spitefulness of three women: Fanny Dashwood, Mrs Ferrars and Lucy. Personally I interpret this as perhaps being because Elinor has a quality of character that they simply don't understand and therefore mistrust. I am sure Jane Austen deliberately doesn't tell us why they persecute her, just as she doesn't explain why Mrs Norris constantly picks on Fanny Price. Shakespeare does the same thing with some of his worst characters, such as Iago. He and Austen are both saying something profound.
@@londongael414 Yes, great comment. Such amazing characterisation to capture how bullies react to fear! Lucy has a streak of sadism in her which makes her despicable to us but also implies Robert and Mrs Ferrars will inevitably experience some suffering by being so close to her in the future. But they richly deserve it so perhaps there's some justice after all.
I always suspected that Lucy was aware of Edward's attachment to Elinor and my theory is that the time Lucy spend with Edward while he was taking lessons from her father (if I remember correctly) was the time she tried (and succeeded) in seducing him and succeeded in getting secretly engaged. Now, suspecting Elinor would apply the same tactics and knowing that Elinor stood closer to Edwards family than her, she ingratiated herself to whoever was able to provide an invitation for her to meet Elinor and investigate. We know for sure that Lucy is very cunning and observant yet lacks the morals that Charlotte Lucas had, as soon as Edward is disinherited, she sets her cap at his younger brother who is to inherit it all. Though she angered the Ferrarses at first, she managed to work her way to become 'closer than the real children' to Mrs Ferrars. That's how astute Lucy is.
… and how desperate. I believe she had no other prospects for her own security than marriage, though you can see her building bridges to the children of well to do families (perhaps as a governess or nursemaid, as a backup plan.) She had no talents, no wealth, no status, no knowledge, and (really) no help of any kind. Like Charlotte, she’s being very pragmatic here, but unlike Charlotte she’s far less supported. At the end of the day, she had Anne (for awhile) to throw a bit of distraction in so her schemes were not quite so obvious…. she felt she HAD to find some agreeable person to help her gain an audience with Elinor and, in her mind, what better way to win her confidence than by flattery? Yes, her lies came out with Anne (& out went Anne with them) but think what would have happened if they didn’t (horrors!) Elinor & Edward would be parted forever and Lucy (+Anne, I daresay) would both be not only old maids (not so bad from our modern viewpoints) but also POOR and utterly without means of a more secure future. Charlotte, at least, would have had her well developed mind, her family, and her friends of good standing to ensure she did not end up in the gutter. What did the sisters Steele have?
Also worth mentioning that I believe the primary vein of this plan goes way back to her school days. Without the means to be introduced properly to society and, therefore, her pool of potential husbands (certainly well off ones) was extremely limited… I can see how she saw her escape route and persisted in assuring herself a comfortable existence. It’s too bad she had such little self respect to go along with the microscopic opportunities afforded women at the time.
"and knowing that Elinor stood closer to Edwards family than her"
Lol how much society has changed that this distinction would very much be a negative in Elinor's favor today 😅
"So wait, you are my half brother's brother in law?"
"Yes?"
"NOPE"
😂🤣
@@nancymcclymont2858 "She had no talents, no wealth, no status, no knowledge, and (really) no help of any kind"
You see that doesn't fly at all on the knowledge side of things.
Her father was a school master and the novel presents her as intelligent enough to manipulate events to her advantage.
It doesn't strike me as likely that she would have learned nothing from such a father unless he was the most inattentive parent of the era.
@@mnomadvfx Right, and being the daughter of a schoolmaster was no leg up in society, the marriage mart, and it in no way paid well. She did the most she could with that situation by manipulating Edward the way she did. I’m saying the same thing a different way. She felt she had to do these things because all she had was her ability to strategize, manipulate, etc.
@@nancymcclymont2858 In a way, Jane Austen used Lucy's character to show how the society treated (and still treats to this day) the flatters and the unscrupulous. They win even if they go over the heads and hearts of others. Had Elinor had more sense as to who Lucy was, she would have never accepted to be her confidante and would have ruined Lucy as she so cunningly was making Elinor suffer and boasting about her engagement, even gossiping about Marianne's situation. But Elinor has too many principles that would have ruined her if not Colonel Brandon while Lucy wins by dumping Edward the moment he's disinherited and going after his brother. I also always wondered, how was Robert Ferrars fall for Lucy so quickly? I suspect that Lucy played her tricks on him just to secure her position in a wealthy family while still being engaged to Edward, just in case.
I always thought Lucy knew about Elinor before Elinor met her, but this is a very good analysis and proof! :) Thank you for sharing.
Thanks for this enjoyable analysis.
That Lucy Steele must have found out about Elinor Dashwood from Edward Ferrars not only demonstrates Lucy's cunning and shrewdness, but also Edward's guilelessness.
Or his stupidity.
I'd go as far as saying "gormlessness", honestly...? 🤦🏻♀️ Edward was stuck in a truly difficult situation having been inveighled by Lucy into an early engagement (via his teen infatuation & her manipulativeness) before he really got to know her character - basically trapped and heading for a loveless marriage with a very scheming woman. But I'm not sure I can consider his subsequently spending so much time with Elinor to be a truly honorable course of action...?
Surely he couldn't have been so oblivious as to not notice her growing affection for him, particularly given that he felt the same way, and even his relatives started noticing his partiality? He's honorable in not dumping Lucy (which could've destroyed her reputation) but per the mores of the time, the really honorable thing to do about Elinor would surely have been to start only meeting her socially, interacting with cordiality but more reserve, and definitely not keep going for cosy visits to their cottage? It's like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too - a more respectable version of his brother Robert's flexible morals! 🥴
The way Edward's written, he seems to lack the strict degree of self-control and personal honour that Elinor has, so I was always dubious about whether their eventual marriage would really have been a happy one?
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 Excellent observations and I agree it reflects Edward's naivety but also his stunted emotional growth. His mother and his upbringing have kept him in a state of chronic low self-esteem and this lack of independence, as well as his genuinely guileless and good-hearted nature, make him slower to understand the implications of his behaviour. He's an interesting mirror to Marianne, another fundamentally honest but overly trusting personality. I also read Edward as often in a state of clinical depression and this contributes to his passivity and desperate reaching out for comfort from Elinor, without much thought for her feelings.
I recall Austen indicates their marriage is a happy one because Edward's sources of misery (mother, brother and former fiance!) mostly recede from him and he relies more on Elinor's judgement going forward which is a great support to him with his shyness and lack of worldiness. They're both financially uncertain but free of the stifling obligations of their former lives so they can relax and enjoy the company of genuine people at last.
I hope at some point Dr. Cox will tackle the question in “Persuasion” that always puzzled me: Did Mary Musgrove know that Charles proposed to her older sister before he married her? The family all knows, so they can hardly have kept their knowledge from Mary’s ears (because they’re so tacky and indiscreet). But then, how would a whiner like Mary ever hold off from reproaching either her husband or her sister that he apparently preferred Anne at first? It doesn’t seem like her to not whip that out when she feels ill-used, even if she does basically love and respect her sister.
Oh yes! I would love to hear Dr. Cox’s thoughts on this! Honestly any videos on Persuasion would be welcome by me:)
That is an interesting point... Mary sure does like to feel ill used, but I don't think she mentions it at _all_. Hmm
Mary does say that she was away at school when Anne knew Cpt Wentworth, and she may still have been there when Charles proposed, so maybe she was too young to take much notice of it at the time.
I imagine she was thrilled at being the only married daughter, especially being the YOUNGEST daughter.
Yes I would love to know this as well. I also want to know what happens to Mrs Clay's children, she seems to abandon them to go to Bath quite easily....
Do you think Lucy Steele knew all about Elinor Dashwood before she came to Barton?
Yes, I do! Though I'd love to know what you think was going through her mind to make her decide that Fanny wouldn't react badly to her revealing her engagement. A close reading of that, I mean.
From Ch. 24: Lucy went on. “I am rather of a jealous temper too by nature, and from our different situations in life, from his being so much more in the world than me, and our continual separation, I was enough inclined for suspicion, to have found out the truth in an instant, if there had been the slightest alteration in his behaviour to me when we met, or any lowness of spirits that I could not account for, or if he had talked more of one lady than another, or seemed in any respect less happy at Longstaple than he used to be. I do not mean to say that I am particularly observant or quick-sighted in general, but in such a case I am sure I could not be deceived.”
This has always seemed to me Lucy's clearest statement of "I do NOT like the way Edward spoke of you, Elinor Dashwood, nor how his behavior has changed since meeting you, so back away."
Absolutely. She knew . She came to have a chance at meeting her
@@melissapagonis5940 I believe it was the elder Miss Steele, and not Lucy, who revealed the engagement.
With Edward's reserved nature he probably mentioned Eleanor and her entire family and as someone else commented, Lucy seems astute enough to pick up on his feelings. My feeling is Lucy kept questioning him to get more information while noting his reactions. She was a sly one.
Thank you for commenting on this. I had not picked up on the history of Lucy’s fascination with meeting Eleanor. Since Austen brilliantly used effusive language in her characters’ conversations (so clever, amusing and also ridiculous), I had not considered she had really “longed for” knowing Eleanor. There is always something new to discover in Austen. Thank you.
Of course Lucy Steele knew about Elinor and the possibility of her being a threat. And she wasn't so subtle as to fool Elinor when it came to her reasons of befriending and confiding in Elinor so quickly. Lucy had learned enough of Elinor's character (I think from Edward) to know she was nothing like Lucy herself, and so wouldn't resort to similar tactics as Lucy, but would conduct herself with honor and propriety instead.
Absolutely she knew. After all, in her “Dear John” letter to Edward, she says (I paraphrase) that she refuses to marry a man who’s obviously long been in love with someone else, and thus, felt herself free to latch onto Robert.
That's Lucy being Lucy - portray herself in the BEST possible light while portraying EVERYONE else as out to injure her!
@@michaelodonnell824 Absolutely right! But still, she was nobody’s fool. Given her options in life, I have to (gag) reluctantly… almost… admire her. No, no, I can’t do it!
@@londongael414 Not too many here have much of anything to say in Lucy's favor, other than she was skillful in playing the game. Someone further up the string even gave her the greatest cut of all, implying she was behaving "like an American". I suppose I should be insulted, too, but I'm not. We don't understand her (Jane) or her characters as well as do our cousins across the pond, but we love her as deeply.
@@londongael414 I have to say, I feel less like I can blame Lucy for pushing whatever advantage she had than John and Fanny or Willoughby. In the case of those people, they all stood to inherit plenty of wealth and advantages (Willoughby lost that opportunity, but only because he had been a complete dick to Eliza Williams.) Lucy really didn't have much hope of living a comfortable and independent-ish life without marrying well. That doesn't make her a good person; just a little more understandable.
But I don't remember getting to read or hear of her "Dear John" letter. Is it in the book? (It's been a long time since I read it.)
@@harringt100 A “dear John letter” is a figure of speech for a woman breaking up with a man, as Lucy does to Edward; there is no book/letter you are missing. :)
That was a very well thought out video, as usual, and wonderfully entertaining to unpack more about such an interesting and complex character.
It leads me to believe that Lucy is absolutely aware of Edward's disinterestedness in herself. She mentions that Edward left her 'looking ill' and attributes the reason - to Eleanor - to his being upset at having left her.
But the fact that she even noticed him looking ill is, I believe, testament to the fact that she knows he's unhappily engaged.
absolutely. SHe knows they were young and dumb and he could probably back out of it if he tried.
Thank you for this delightful exploration of one of Austen's most dimensional of secondary characters. Lucy is indeed sharp and even if her knowledge of Elinor were not perfect, her intuition and instincts for self preservation guides her unerringly to eliminate her gravest threat.
It seems likely that she had suspected about her, that's why she was trying so hard to win her friendship and spoke about her secret engagement. It looks like she was trying to provok Eleanor with everything she said about Edward. She desperately wanted to see her reaction.
She was so provoking too! I had seen that as a device to make Eleanor's suffering (under Sense) be thrown into sharper relief against her sister's suffering (under Sensibility).
In my mind Miss Steele is from the same mould as Vanity Fair's Miss Sharp. Two very determined young ladies who used their wits and charm, all they possessed, to improve their situation in life.
Well, I was pretty sure Lucy knew about Elinor, but it had not occurred to me that she had gotten herself to Exeter in the hopes of meeting her somehow. Of course, it's just what Lucy would do! Great analysis, as always, Dr. Cox!
Thank you once again, Octavia. I hadn't previously picked up on the clues to Lucy's machinations in order to meet Elinor, but it certainly explains why she singled out Elinor for sharing her secret. It's easy to imagine Edward's warm words to Lucy about his new acquaintance and how they were interpreted by her.
Oh, Lucy ABSOLUTELY knew about Elinor before she arrived. She knew there was a threat and she addressed that threat. Lucy didn't have a great life and she did what she had to do to make her situation better; she wouldn't have given that up for anything.
You bet she knew about the Dashwoods, especially Elinor. Everything Lucy says implies how close she is to Edward, even though she thinly disguises the connection as friends, at first. Could she be anymore gloating than she was when she brought Elinor into her "secret" engagement? In Mansfield Park, Austen describes marriage as a maneuvering business. Lucy could have given Maria Bertram lessons in how to get what she wanted! The main difference being Lucy was less picky about the person she gained. If they could provide safety, comfort, and some status Lucy was satisfied. Too bad for Maria that she was unaware that Henry Crawford didn't love her, or even like her. Lucy was definitely more capable of understanding what motivated the people she was in contact with. She must have had a complicated score card of everything each person could do for her and how she could get them to give it to her willingly. Scary😏.
Henry is the villain there he actively pursued and pretended he loved Maria and ruined things for her!!
@@unasperanza9803 He was the villain for Maria. He did disregard her feelings but she was hardly without fault. She did the same thing to Rushworth as Crawford did to her. It's not made forgivable because he wasn't very smart about people. Crawford and Maria are both wanting someone they don't understand and are only focused on themselves and whether or not they were happy. They couldn't understand why the other person wouldn't just agree to be what they wanted because they wanted them. The other person's needs or wants or feelings had no value to either of them.
I think yes, she did know, for all the reasons you've given, plus some supporting evidence that: Lucy is shown, later in the book, to be very cruel in her speech to Elinor, and early on she 'confides' to Elinor that she's so very jealous, she certainly would have noticed if he'd spoken about any woman more than another. I think Edward did in fact speak quite a lot about Elinor, and Lucy is trying to be hurtful by saying the opposite.
Oooh!! This is an intriguing theory!! I definitely believed before that Lucy knew all about Elinor and the danger she presented to the engagement with Edward, but I had never thought about how deep this all went. The way Jane Austen writes it, it really just sounds like Lucy and Anne "happened" to be in Exeter and made the "delightful discovery" that their cousin Mrs. Jennings was there. What machinations would Lucy have had to go through to figure out that Mrs. Jennings was staying at Barton Park, and frequented Exeter, and would be there on a certain day?? I wouldn't put any of it past conniving Lucy!
All I keep thinking, & couldn't put out of my mind after several readings of S&S, is how tragic for Eleanor to end up with 2 such sordid sisters-in-law! I'm sure their utter snobbiness would have kept them from their "poor relations" Edward & Elinor as often as possible, but how wretched for Elinor in particular to have to be related to those 2 insufferable women (3, if you count Mama Ferrars) by marriage.
Well, her being so far from them is probably a blessing, lol, she wouldn't have to deal with them much
I know it was honorable of Edward to keep his engagement with Lucy, but at least he could have told Elinor himself he was engaged while he was at Norland with her? There’s not much detail in the book about how him and Elinor having a “sort of understanding as lovers” but I really feel like he led her on and gave her hopes for a relationship which might be impossible since he’ll not break his engagement to Lucy out of honor.
In the movie he was trying to tell Elinor about Lucy but Fanny interrupted their conversation and told him to leave for London immediately as he was needed by their mother. Not sure about the book though.
@@Mixolixplosion Yes, that was in the movie only.
I totally missed so much about Lucy’s character and all the subtext in their conversations. It’s amazing that JA can still surprise me
Listening to your analysis of the relationship between Edward and Lucy reminded me of a distinction Jane Austen make about two types of love in her letter to her niece Fanny. Fanny asks if she should marry Mr. Plumtree. Jane responds: "You like him well enough to marry, but not well enough to wait ... nothing can be compared to the misery of being bound without love, bound to one and preferring another."
This describes Edward's misery.
Fanny listened to her aunt. Do you think S&S was on their minds?
I always imagined that while visiting in Plymouth, and in his more depressed mood, Edward forgot himself and his company and let slip the attractiveness of the Dashwoods, or maybe Eleanor in particular. But Lucy being a woman on the alert to any threat to her engagement, enlarged and as you said, possibly used this compliment to gain a more intimate acquaintance with Eleanor. I love this discussion!
It's Elinor
Thank you Octavia, that was a very insightful analysis. I had always believed that Lucy must be aware of a possible affection between Edward and Elinor, but I'd assumed she'd just caught on to some vague, gossipy speculation from Sir John and/or Mrs Jennings. It had never occurred to me that the source may have been Edward, but your close reading is very persuasive that this is indeed the case. I can imagine Lucy asking her fiancé about his wider family, and Edward - who is nothing if not honest - being a little unguarded in his praise of Elinor. No wonder Lucy became suspicious and went to such lengths to engineer a meeting with the Dashwoods!
What I’d like to know is: why did Edward open his big mouth? If he spoke of Elinor in such a way as to put Lucy on her guard….why?! Or maybe it was more wheedling by Lucy, maybe she asked a ton of questions and got him to admit something he didn’t mean to. That seems more likely. 🤷🏻♀️
Fascinating video. I have wondered this but it has been a while since I read "Sense and Sensibility." I thought it was too convenient that Lucy managed to come meet them and happen to say the things that would be most hurtful/painful to Elinor (especially since she did not invite the confidence). I found this video and the texts you read convincing. It further demonstrates her ability to charm people to get what she wants, which we see later in her marriage to Robert Ferris. I love these videos. Thank you for making them. ❤️
I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of the video (and have kicked myself a couple of times for not stopping to ask important questions when reading S&S!). But I will say that I don't think that Lucy would have needed to feed Sir John the line about :the most beautiful creatures in the world." I feel that this kind of hackneyed phrasing is something Sir John would have come up with on his own as soon as he heard that the Steele sisters were curious about the Dashwoods.
I always look forward to your videos. They are so brilliant and get me to look at classic literature from all sorts of new angles. Thank you so much for making this channel!
The film made it clear they felt she knew. If that's good enough for Emma Thompson, it's good enough for me. Thank you for a well- reasoned discussion. ❤
In retrospect, one can sympathise with Lucy Steele's conniving. She would have staked her future on the promise of marriage to Edward. It is understandable that she would be indignant and jealous of a perceived rival. If the story had been written from her point of view, the reader would have sided with her.
I'd like to know if Edward fell out of love with Lucy before or after meeting Elenore. Did he know how manipulative she was before she ditched him for his brother? It's incredibly selfish of him to fall for and lead on Elenore when he was engaged to someone else.
equally dishonest towards Lucy in such case
I'm not sure if Edward ever really "Loved" Lucy - in Persuasion, Captain Wentworth, after Louisa's fall, comes to realise that people "Expect" that he and Louisa will marry. He leaves, to give her time to recover from her fall, but equally prepared to "do the honourable thing" if it turns out that Louisa also expected that he would marry her.
In the early 19th century, "Expectations" could arise, leading to a "forced" marriage, especially if the Man was "honourable" (If you were a Willoughby or a Wyckham, you just abandoned them!). Edward repeatedly shows himself to be honourable - he will marry Lucy because of his "Promise" even when it leads to him being disinherited. So, it is POSSIBLE that Lucy engineered a scenario, so that young Edward (and remember he was little more than a schoolboy when Lucy and he contracted their engagement) felt Compelled to do the "honourable thing" and propose marriage.
Yes it was strange behaviour for someone engaged
Good question. My assumption was that the engagement was entered in to while both were quite young. Perhaps it was exciting to do something so secretive and against the wishes of the family, Over the years the attraction faded. Edward felt honour'-bound to not end it as that would destroy Lucy's reputation, as well as being a bit caddish of himself.
@@TiffyVella1 but what was going to change? Why the delaying tactics if he was honourable? He was hoping to get out of it and acting like it
Yaaay! A new Dr Octavia Cox video! 👏
Thank you, this answered a nagging question I've had ever since watching the Emma Thompson version back in 1995 (I've read the book too, but only once or twice decades ago). Having watched several dozens f your videos now and feeling a little better informed about Austen's style and the time period I think Lucy, a sharp savvy creature fighting for survival definitely perceived Elinor as at least a potential threat and she wanted to meet her to find out if she truly was or not. Women aren't stupid, they notice little things, and she knows Edward and the precariousness of her position. Lucy probably immediately felt a difference in Edward's affections/feelings toward her when he visits after meeting Elinore.
My great-grandmother was from Devon. My grandmother was born in Plymouth. They came to America in 1906. They told us over the years so much about their life there. ❤️
Oh yes. I imagine that Edward wasn't as circumspect and guarded as he thought he'd been - perhaps mentioning Elinor a bit too often, or looking a bit 'fond' when he did so. Something like that. She seems not to have hung about before scooting off the Exeter and managing to wangle an invitation to Barton Park. It's a while since I read S&S, but I remember wondering whether the Steele girls really were related to Mrs Jennings. Unless I'm misremembering, she seems to have relied entirely on what the Steeles said for 'discovering' the connection.
I keep thinking about how all this works out for Elinor and Edward after their marriage- their relations with their “in-laws.” I wonder if the Farris family ever accepts them back on some level- just communication anyway-, and Lucy seems like the kind of person to strengthen or retain ties with the Dashwoods and with Elinor and Edward and with everyone, really, in order to take advantage of whatever goes on in any corner of the family and strengthen the family dynamics in general. Edward and Elinor wouldn’t turn their back on family either and would likely seek whatever reconciliation was possible, but how would Elinor and Edward endure the differences in money over time and the differences in opportunities they could offer their children versus what the cousins could be offered. It would be very painful in the years ahead, I would imagine.
I just listened to it and I believe it says that Mrs. Ferrars deigned to visit them once but did not insult them by pretending they were favorites. So I would assume a polite and civil relationship with them but not close. It also gives the impression that Lucy and Fanny fought often, often including their husbands
When I first read the book,I thought that Lucy had gathered enough from Edward’s visit to make her uneasy that there was someone, in a general way, and only became seriously worried, when Mrs Jennings and Sir John were openly joking in front of her, calling Edward Ferrars Elinor’s lover, and that this was what made her take the decisive step of bringing Elinor into her confidence. However after watching this video, I am convinced that Lucy had been worried about Elinor beforehand, and had engineered her visit to friends in Exeter in order to “accidentally” meet up with her distant relations there. She might actually have known about her connection to Mrs Jennings and Lady Middleton and been the one to inform Mrs Jennings and Sir John of it when she “ran into them” in town. Lucy is such a great villain because on the one hand, she is a user who doesn’t care whose corpse she’ll step over on her way to success, and on the other, she’s a young woman in desperate circumstances. One might even say of her, as of Jane Fairfax, that “the world is not hers nor is the world’s law.” I think even Jane Austen had a grudging respect for Lucy.
Interesting that you compare Lucy with Jane, two women with secret engagements. And yes, both are well-bred young women with no other assets who are fearful of poverty. I want to pay attention now to Jane's movements and how Miss Bates speaks of her. Did Jane distrust Emma and was she also working behind the scenes? I hadn't thought so but Jane plays her cards close to her heart, unlike Lucy.
@@TiffyVella1 You might be interested in reading Jane Fairfax by Joan Aiken. It’s a retelling of Emma from the point of view of Jane Fairfax. I really enjoyed it.
@@athag1 Thanks!
@@TiffyVella1 Jane is much more refined than Lucy, though, so u don't see her doing any behind the scenes shenanigans except voicing her (very reasonable) displeasure at Frank
I think Edward came close to telling Elinor all about Lucy before he left Norland, and I wouldn't put it past him to have confessed to Lucy that he had fallen in love with another and that he might have offered to release Lucy from their engagement if she wished, at which of course she would have declared she still wanted to marry. It just seems to me that Edward is honest enough that he would want her to know his feelings had changed.
I don't think Edward was as direct as that about his feelings especially given the fact he had not confided to Elinor his feelings for her. I think Lucy could read him like a book and noticed that he was in love with this friend of his that he met in Norland during a conversation about his visit to Norland.
It's been almost 7 decades since I read Sense and Sensibility (most of 8th grade was spent with the English lady authors of the late 18th and early 19th century and a teacher who encouraged independent thought among her mostly female students). However. I remember that, when Lucy Steele met Eleanor Dashwood, she remarked that she had heard much of her, and not from Eleanor's neighbor, but a "completely different source" by whom she was praised. Then Lucy confides that she's secretly engaged to Eleanor's sister-in-law's brother. Does my memory serve me well?
Actually, Edward was Fanny's (Elinor's sister in law) brother
@@nicoleshan6410 That's exactly what I wrote.
This is such an interesting instance of the way Jane Austen constructs her support framework under pinning the events that propel her narratives. Critics often accuse her of relying on coincidences to forward the plots but instances like this show that to be much less the case. These structures can also be discovered in her other novels.
The gentile population of the UK was very small at that time which makes coincidences so much more frequent in any case. I now live in a place where the population is rather small and coincidences happen all the time, in fact it is essential to be cautious in conversation as the connections between people can be very embarrassing. People who live in larger population areas may not be aware of this.
Yes! Thank you for a whole Lucy Steele episode! You are amazing!
It would be great if you could make a video about Edmund Bertram’s attitude towards Fanny. It is so strange and unclear… I would love to know your opinion
Me too. He never seems worth Fanny's adoration. He was the person who was nicest to her in a fairly narrow social circle but he never had too many competitors.
Honestly both Edmund Bertram and Edward Ferrers seem a bit unworthy of their heroines. Neither one are my favorite Jane Austen heroes, even if the books they’re in are great.
Absolutely love your videos and insights! Always makes me want to re-read so many novels.
I wish your videos were required “research” for Jane Austen movie adaptations!
Everything Lucy does is like a spider spinning a web around Elinor to trap Elinor in her own honor code. As Elinor says to Marianne "It was told me, -- it was in a manner forced on me by the very person herself whose prior engagement ruined all my prospects; and told me, as I thought, with triumph." A plan maneuvered and cooly executed by Lucy Steele.
I am sure she knew. Probably why she brought up Edward. She wanted to see Elinor's reaction.
I am always astonished at how complex and intricately detailed Jane Austen's characters are. My sister and I often find Austen characters in people we know . We know a Mr Collins, Mr Willoughby and indeed a Lucy Steele within our circle of acquaintances. I am very interested to hear your opinion on how well Austen books are adapted into series or movies. I was extremely disappointed by 2020 Emma and although I am looking forward to Persuasion I am disappointed by the look of Wentworth...he looks more like a pirate than a Captain.
Had no idea there was a new Persuasion film coming. Looking at the trailer it looks like it is going to be horrible. Seems like they have totally misunderstood Anne Elliots personality and ended up making her more into an wannebe Emma or Elisabeth and crossed it with Fleabag storytelling. I'm sure it will be funny in itself, but if you love Anne Elliot for Anne Elliot I think it is going to be a hard watch.
I truly believe that she did know about her, which is why she made such a beeline for her when they first met.
I've felt for a while that the characters of Lucy Steele and Becky Sharp (Vanity Fair) have a lot in common. Published around 35 years after Sense and Sensibility, it seems to me as if Lucy was made a protagonist in her own novel, and how a woman of her abilities would do if dependent only on her wits to make a life. I'd love to see a comparison of these two.
I have always believed that Lucy knew about Elinor before her visit to Barton and got herself invited to meet the Dashwood sisters. I also like your interpretation that Lucy completely fabricated the comment about the sisters' beauty. To me, it seems inconsistent with Edward's character to say something their beauty, let alone something so over the top. Even if he weren't engaged to Lucy, that seems out of character. Love your videos, Dr. Cox. I've been reading and rereading Jane Austen my whole life and you've added so much depth in my understanding of her works. Thank you!
This is all so interesting. Do you think Austen’s novels were written with the intention that they would be read and re-read, with more nuances being revealed each time? Or do you think modern readers, for whatever reason, miss some of the detail and need the re-reads? Thank you for the videos, they are great fun to listen to and must be fantastic for students.
I mean to me, it was never a question that she absolutely knew about Elinor! But I never had the text to support, and these passages are wonderful!
I have absolutely no doubt that Lucy set out to accidentally meet Mrs Jennings in Exeter. It explains how easily they could leave their hosts to head to Barton Park.
As for the Dashwoods' being the 'most beautiful creatures in the world', I think this was ventured forth from Lucy herself and increased by degrees through her conversation with Sir John Middleton. There's just no way Edward said anything so demonstrative, especially to Lucy. Her sharp little ears pricked up when he mentioned Elinor - maybe his voice softened. It wouldn't have taken much for Lucy to pick up on the vibe. Edward had probably never mentioned a young lady before to Lucy. So, I think in mentioning the Dashwood sisters' beauty to John Middleton, she was testing the waters, "Oh, are they really so pretty?" His enthusiastic reply would have confirmed her jealousies and made her more determined than ever to see Elinor for herself. I imagine the 'most beautiful creatures in the world' phrase came from John Middleton himself.
Thank you for another awesome lecture! I always wondered if Lucy was really indeed a relation of Mrs. Jennings. She was so good at reading people it made me think that maybe she attached herself to whomever Mrs. Jennings told her about in their initial meeting.
I really enjoy your Jane Austen videos. Could you do more please? P & P, S & S, and Emma please!
Ah- but Plymouth is in fact mentioned by Edward early in the book when he first meets Eleanor at Norland and tells her he had been a student in Plymouth.
Your analysis makes so much sense.... definitely in line with Lucy's character as an avid orchestrator of her own social rise. She would be quite focused on Elinor as a rival, and would definitely go to such lengths to protect the social and economic opportunity of her marriage to Edward
Everytime you open a stunning deeper comprehention on Austen's text... 😍
Thanks a lot! 😊🙏
Edward went straight from visiting Lucy to visiting Elinor...this doesn't make him any more likable.
No, it does not.
Lucy was a little schemer. As soon as Edward was disowned by his mother and stripped of his inheritance, she went with Robert the brother who got Edward's inheritance.
Caroline Bingley wishes she had the same level of skill to get what she wants as Lucy Steele. Lucy succeeds in making Elinor a false friend, and warning her off Edward. Caroline succeeds in making Elizabeth make fun of her with her wit, and in making Darcy openly declare his admiration of Elizabeth's "fine eyes", figure, and love of reading.
Lucy was protecting her future. After all, Edward WAS engaged to her. He was young and stupid, but she never held a gun to his head.
Caroline Bingley wasn't engaged to Darcy, or being courted by him. IMO, he thought of her as Bingley's sister. Later, I'm pretty sure he came to dislike her, when she kept with her snotty remarks. (Which may have reminded him of HIS snotty remarks)
@@jmarie9997 For sure, Lucy had more claim than Caroline. I just think that Caroline would admire Lucy's skill at trapping her chosen man (men) and neutralizing her rival. Poor Caroline was frustrated at every turn.
@@londongael414 LOL! Indeed!
Haha right. Caroline just ended up making Elizabeth look even better by comparison. I love the line Austen puts in the novel about how angry or jealous people don’t always behave logically, in reference to Caroline Bingley. It’s so true too!
I also always believed that Lucy Steele knew about Elinor.
This close reading also confirms my growing belief that Edward Ferrars isn't such wonderful gentleman.
Knowing that he was engaged, he shouldn't have been courting Elinor during his stay at Norland.
He also shouldn't have visited the Dashwoods in Barton right after visiting Lucy in Plymouth.
If he truly honored his commitments, he wouldn't have made any kind of advances or shown any interest in Elinor at Norland. Or, if he truly fell in love with Elinor, he should have broke up his engagement with Lucy immediately.
The fact that Edward courted Elinor while engaged to Lucy and didn't break things off with either one of them, continuing to see them both, shows to me that he is no gentleman.
He is not as bad as Willoughby by far, but he is not the hero that Colonel Brandon is either.
@@londongael414
True!
But maybe that's Jane Austen creating a world where women are the ones who are actually in control unlike her actual world at the time. Or, at least how we perceive her actual world. Who really knows. Maybe it wasn't as male dominated as we think. 🤔
Anyway, good observation! 😊
To be fair, for a man to break off an engagement was dishonorable. It could have either ruined Lucy, or left him open to a breach of Promise suit. A woman, on the other hand could break an engagement.
@@jmarie9997 Yes, you are right. So, he shouldn't have flirted with Elinor at all if he had promised himself to Lucy.
@@98823rochelle Oh, I'm not defending him. He behaved VERY badly.
I reread the book, and the chapter where Elinor finds out - and twists herself into a pretzel defending Edward's behavior to herself - is a wonderful example of Elinor being a smug, superior prat. In my opinion.
Agreed! Given he seems to have developed a habit of trying to have his cake & eat it too, so to speak, I can't help wondering if his affection for Elinor would've survived their marriage...? And whether she could have truly been happy with a husband who, although fairly respectable, seems to have lacked a certain degree of spine? 🤔 She mightve managed to inspire him to a certain level of greater personal honour, but I'm not sure what he really brings her in terms of complementing her character?
Brilliant! Once again, Dr. Cox has ferreted out a gem of Austen's mastery of intrigue, feminine wiles, Austen's profound perspicacity about what lies behind Lucy's obvious faux-friendliness toward Elinor. Behind the polite viel of feminine charm and manners lies the villain, Lucy Steele, as she (Lucy) at the hand of Austen, lures us into a certain sympathy for her plight, despite our painful awareness of her complete insuitability to Edward's sensitivity. In the end, with rapier ruthlessness, Lucy drives the knife in by dumping Edward for Robert and the Ferrar's fortune. Elinor's release comes at the cost of suffering Lucy's cruelty, knowing she must continue to be the strong one her whole life, even with Edward, whose youthful foolishness ensnared him into a five-year long torture. We are comforted by the thought that Lucy ends up with Robert as much as Elinor wins Edward. Robert, a creature as fake and vapid as Lucy, surely they will torture, deceive, manipulate and torment each other, all the while reveling in each other's wiles. How sweet. As for the "irrevocable settlement" of the Ferrar's fortune on Robert, can we be assured that a creature as vain, insipid and fickle as Mrs. Ferrars won't changer her mind again? We are left wishing it vaguely, but Austen is a master at getting us to conjure "vague" thoughts that turn out to be true.
Actually, I'm pretty sure she'll play him like a wind-up toy. Look how easily she obtained Mrs Ferrar's forgiveness and friendship.
@@londongael414 JA was too smart to give her villains (or simple love rivals) the punishment fans want and modern authors often give.
Willoughby didn't fall into a bear trap. Robert and Lucy ended up wealthy and the favorite of his mother. (And will probably inherit most of her remaining estate)
Caroline Bingley (who is ten times worse than Lucy, IMHO) remained welcome at Pemberly.
Mr Elliot will likely inherit Sir Walter's title.
I love your channel and learning more about novels I have loved for years. I would love if you did more analysis on Wuthering Heights, you really made me see the novel through a different lens and appreciate it. Plus your hair and outfit are stunning today. You look so light and summery.
Sounds like a case of “mention-itis” maybe, on the part of Edward. I loved this video. Thank you for your wonderful work in putting your finger on the pulse of Austen!
PS: Sorry, forgot to say I am subscribing .....nice to have English spoken at a right pace as opposed to twenty (or more) to the dozen on some channels. We are not used to running speech as my nephew says.
My 'O' Level had Pride and Prejudice but no Jane Austen in 'A' Level.
I love these deep dives, thank you for this one. I've just reread S&S and this question about Lucy was very much on my mind.
always thought that Lucy Steele noticed how Edward talked about Elinor, so she basically crossexamined the whole thing
I want to say how much I appreciate your editing around the commercials. Thank you so much for having complete sentences and words! Some channels insert breaks in the middle of a word or to where it cuts into a sentence and it’s not a pleasant experience.
So thank you for the intellectual stimulation, and the great editing, both!
I suspect that Lucy laid her trap for Edward from the first and deliberately maneuvered him into saying or doing something that would entrap him. Even though Edward was not the brightest crayon in the box, even dashing but clueless Captain Wentworth felt he was morally obligated to marry Louisa when he learned that some people had assumed an secret attachment with her. (Thank goodness Louisa bonked her head!).
Thanks for the analysis! Reading Sense and Sensibility the first time was quite a wild ride and I can imagine it being a book worth rereading.
Loved the video. I think you are completely right, she seems to have had nothing else in mind other than warning Elinor off.
I would love to hear your thought on Fanny Dashwood and particularly her treatment early in the novel where she deprives the Dash wood girls and their mother of their home.
Yikes! I can read of Lucy Steele with rueful admiration for her cunning and her fast and loose playing with societal norms, but Fanny Dashwood is truly horrible. Selfish, greedy, vicious, cutting; I suppose she is no worse (?) than Willoughby, and probably not as bad since she doesn't actually assault anyone (not really). But if you had asked her to take a crust of bread from the hand of a starving child, and there was money in it, she wouldn't have any qualms about doing so. I'll bet the witch even attended church on Sunday. I'm also wondering what kind of family Fanny was from. Is she merely a much more monstrous version of Caroline Bingley, daughter of a prosperous tradesman that married up and suddenly acquired some very fine airs and manners, but could only act like Herman Goering in some helpless victim's art gallery?
It was very evident to me that Lucy knew that Edward was into her with the things she said to Elinor. I was just confused about how she could have known
It’s so nice to hear about the subtleties in Austen’s work that I had missed. Lucy sure was a piece of work.
In defence of Lucy Steele:
a) she's penniless: four years prior to the main action of the novel, Edward, who is the heir to a very wealthy estate, proposes to her, but the engagement must remain secret for fear of disinheritance; come on, who on earth would turn down that opportunity?
b) she finds out (it's actually not clear how, but probably from something that E has said) that E has met young women (aged 19, 16-going-on-17 and 14), one of whom (the eldest) is a potential rival (in answer to your question - she certainly seems to know that Elinor might be a rival - the whole point of telling Elinor of her engagement is to tell her "He's mine - so hands off!");
c) but doesn't she dump E when he is disinherited? - Er - no: we are specifically told by Anne (Nancy) that Ed. offered to break the engagement when disinherited and she refused; further, when Colonel Brandon offers Ed the living, Lucy starts planning to increase the tithes, and nick some of Col B's eggs and milk;
d) well, didn't she try to entrap Robert F? - again, no: the Ferrars mob want to persuade Lucy to dump Ed and Robert is to be the persuader: if Lucy decides that R is a better bet than Ed, and chats him up - well, the fault, surely lies with the F family?
I have no illusions in Lucy: she is somebody I would prefer as an enemy (on the Godfather principle: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer). And allowing Thomas (the Dashwoods' servant) to think that she's married to Ed was a very spiteful trick. But what is a penniless girl to do? - she's got to eat, and if in so doing she creates havoc in the Ferrars family - well, it couldn't happen to a more deserving crew!
Conniving Lucy.
I love your close readings of the text. Very enjoyable.
Lucy Steele is even sneakier than Becky Sharpe from Vanity Fair. I've thought of them ask similar, but Lucy is smarter and more strategic. Becky Sharpe latches on to one rich man, then shows her true colors by ripping off a landlord with him. But Lucy will never do anything she could be criticized for by society. And while she limited Edward's options, she kept her own open.
I feel like it’s pretty likely that Lucy knew about Elinor beforehand. It seemed like she came knowing right away how she was going to enter act with Elinor and what the conversations would consist of and the tones and attitudes she would take when speaking with Elinor, especially when the two of them just happen to be alone, or in a situation where they are able to at least talk privately. I haven’t watched to full video yet, so I’m super excited to hear your thoughts! But I decided to comment first to see how close my initial thoughts are to yours. ☺️ I’m always so excited when you upload!!
I have a question that I’m hoping one of the many Austen fans can answer. People are saying that if Edward broke off his engagement to Lucy Steele her reputation would be ruined. This is why he was going to go through with it until she dumped him for his brother. However, if the engagement was a secret - how would anyone know if Edward broke it off?
Great commentary, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts - I'm subscribed!!!
Your commentary had me In agreement right up until you suggested that Lucy Steel's flattery planted in the mouth of Sor John would have had Eleanor Dashwood interested enough to meet up.
My own interpretation of Eleanor's character has her rendered as someone who would not be bent or swayed by such flattery. Maybe mildly curious, but only as to meet a distant cousin.
Perhaps that's the real reason Eleanor met Lucy, whatever Lucy's intentions and designs were?
Oh I absolutely think Lucy knew about Eleanor before she came to Barton. She was already jealous of her and you can tell in her mannerisms and the fact that she wants to take Eleanor into her confidence and spill the beans about her engagement to Edward. I want to know if you have done ever done a close reading of the segment where Edward loses his inheritance because of his engagement to Lucy, but then Lucy breaks off her engagement to Edward and married his brother who has gained Edwards inheritance due to the engagement. Why is the brother able to keep all of the inheritance, When he marries Lucy?
I wish I knew that many english words to describe how exciting and enriching your videos are for me, so I just say thank you!