What is Molinism?
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2020
- Smack in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, Luis do Molina started wondering if God had a different type of knowledge than had been previously thought. Join us today as we find out about Middle Knowledge, and Molinism! Also, Team Pie for life!
#PracticalApologist #Apologetics #Molinism
This video is so helpful! As a Molinists, I always struggled to actually explain it to some common person. When I tell other people about it, I end up confusing them because my language is too philosophical and complicated. But here, you explained Molinism in a simple way for everyone to understand. Thxs!
@Jonathan Singleton The reason I struggled to explain Molinism is because I struggled to use common language to describe the doctrine rather than philosophical language. The issue I had was explaining the concept to those who do not understand philosophical language and terminology. It seems like you did not actually read my whole comment. Instead you cherry picked one sentence and interpreted that I did not understand the doctrine. Unfortunately, many people commit that same flaw when interpreting the Bible.
Molinism makes sense because essentially it is about God learning in what ways he can accomplish His plan using secondary causes. If my soul was placed in one hypothetical universe where I grew up in Saudi Arabia, then in a statistical sense I would have most likely accepted Islam rather than Christianity. But instead I was placed in an environment where I had certain good influences from family and pastors. These influences encouraged me to use my free will to accept Christianity. Molinism allows for free will while at the same is realistic to the reality of outside influences.
@Jonathan Singleton I will also add that to accept the reality of outside influences does not eliminate free will. Even if there are sources that impact my choices, the reality is that it is still up to me to make choices. It is my conscience that saids yes and no to certain choices.
You mention that Molinism does not make sense because it tries to reconcile two ideas that cannot agree with each other: determinism and libertarianism. But if you suggest that Molinism does not make sense because of that, then you have to be consistent by throwing the same accusation at the Bible. There are Bible verses that support determinism and there are Bible verses that support libertarianism. What Molinism and the Bible have in common is that they both support determinism and libertarianism. That is why I choose Molinsm over Calvinism and Arminianism, which are both guilty of emphasizing some verses over others. Molinsim is able to agree with the original meaning of all these texts
@Jonathan Singleton I can see that you are a RUclipsr. Since you are looking for someone to debate, then I suggest that you make that request to either another RUclipsr or someone with a pHD who is prepared to debate. Don't prey on some college student who is about to get his bachelor's degree. Its unethical to try to embarrass somebody with my status as a laity person. I would think about accepting an unrecorded video conversation.
@Jonathan Singleton The purpose of this channel is to show people that no one on Earth, absolutely no one, has a perfect grasp on what the Bible says. I try to see the validity in all scripturally backed opinions, whether I hold those opinions or not.
I'm certain that you're confident in your beliefs and that you have plenty of evidence to back them up, but so did Luis de Molina, as well as William Lane Craig, as well as myself, and many other highly educated theologians who are Molinists. I don't know what you believe, but suffice to say that I'd disagree with you on some points. But you know what I don't have the arrogance to say? That you're absolutely wrong and that I am absolutely right. As long as you source your beliefs in the Word, then you have a valid opinion.
So, please, I ask that you treat others on my page with the same kindness and humility. I see that you don't understand or agree with Molinism, and that's okay, but to call it outright unbiblical and contrary seems prideful, to say the least.
Your videos are criminally under viewed.
You are an untapped goldmine of theological perspectives.
Thank you.
I have subscribed & look forward to sharing these.
Wow, thank you!! That was so easy to understand!
that was awesome thank you
Excellent! Great explanation!
Good teaching!
Great vid bro!
How love God, and know his will, even without faith.
Keep the commandments.
Isaiah 66:23
Mt. 4:4, 19:17, 22:36-40.
What you call traditional Molinism is the only Molinism I know, the second option you describe is just traditional Christianity which is neither Arminianism nor Calvinism, just biblical truth and you explained it very well. So, really, if you believe in that you are not a Molinist which is good because Molinism is just a more convoluted form of Calvinism. In Molinism the real issue is not with God having full foreknowledge (knowing what we will do, knowing the beginning from the end) which He definitely has, or even middle knowledge, in the sense that He knows what I’d most likely do in any given circumstance (since He knows me even better than I do) and using that to achieve His good purposes (like I would with my children for example), the problem is with the “possible worlds” scenario.
If God premeditatedly thought of different worlds and possibilities before creating this one, and only actuated a world in which people in some given circumstances will respond the way He wants them to (even without causing them to), He is effectually predetermining who will be saved and who won’t, because freedom would just be an illusion since He chose to create this particular world and rejected the other worlds, so He would ultimately be the author of evil and sin because, given many options, He would have predetermined to create the world in which Adam and Eve sinned. And since we know that God is not the author of sin we cannot postulate that He premeditatedly created the world where they would sin.
I personally don’t think that God picked and chose one specific world, because the only way that all of this is not just a big game, is that if God just created one world (without considering other possible worlds) and gave us all free will, period. Because if you make God to be someone who picks and chooses between different possible worlds in order to accomplish his purposes, you definitely end up in determinism (albeit a more disguised and convoluted one compared to Calvinism), and you’d also grossly underestimate God’s power as well as taint His intentions. God is not like a big computer that spews out the best possible scenario just to win some sort of game, God created us out of love and in order to have a relationship with us and He made us in His image and our life is immeasurably valuable to Him, and He is so powerful that He can create just one world, and still achieve His ultimate purpose. Or it would all really sound like cheating, wouldn’t it? So, true Molinism is determinism and not biblical Christianity. While what you described as the second option is biblical Christianity. God bless!
Are all these possible worlds, or is that simulations, a huge problem either way, morally nessesary to give believers optimal chances of salvation.? Just maybe this one world will suffice. From the age of accountability, the average person, to their dealth, probably gets a million or possibly more chances in a life time. I call em grace notes. The particulars arent that important. A plunk distance in time equals 1 grace note. One nanosecond, what have you. How many more chances do you need? Kiss. Keep it simple .the problem is , how can God then know ahead of time who's saved and who's not. Most theologians will claim God need only know what is Logically possible.As for the Bible, it's at best ambiguous as to where it stands on the issue. -problem number 2, the problem of intruction. Yeah, the thirds the worst,the problem of reflection . What do we know etc. The Holy Spirit is still not an easy way out here
Just got yourself a subscriber!
I never realized Yadier Molina was a theologian.
Don't be ridiculous. It's his older brother, Benjie Molina.
You're thinking of Alfred Molina, AKA Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2.
I like pie!
#TeamPie!
Sign me up for Molinism! Also, sign me up for pie!
#TeamPie for life!
Molinism seems a bit like having your pie and eating it too.
I'm starting to point this way. I don't believe in determinism as an absolute, but I am not a total Arminan either because I believe He can know what could happen like in Molinism. So, I think I am a Molinist.
Finally a video that just explains it.
If this is correct, then it seemsl ike William Lane Craig, with countless videos on this subject, is totally misrepresenting what Molinism is.
So in Molinism, God is like a master chess player where He moves his pieces knowing all of the options you have available and knowing which of those options you are most likely to choose
That seems like a great analogy indeed
That's probability .That doesn't cut it with gods absolute knowledge. Isn't that what's required for God to be sovieren? The probability argument is one that open theists make. They still need molinism, they would call it neo molinism, to explain away why those who don't hear the gospel , R unsaved. Convenient.
That will be Open Theism I think
😮
#TeamCake
I can accept Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, and even Open Theism. But this...this is too far.
🤔
I think of Dr. Strange in Avengers: Infinity War when he uses the green time stone to see every possible outcome 🤷♂️
Not a problem for a Calvinist of a determinist persaution. Isn't this two, exactly what an open theist would claim? One can beg the question sure. Give God the benefit of the dout but as to a logical mechanism, it doesn't appear to work.
I hate calling it molinism giving credit to some man what is clearly taught in the Bible. Here's a perfect example:
Luke 22:67-68
[67]Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
[68]And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
The Bible has many other verses explaining how God knows what people would do IF this or that. God chose David knowing that he would fulfill His will. He also knew how David's life would have gone if He had never chosen him to be king. God closes doors that wouldn't be good for us to go through, knowing what would happen if He allowed us to go in that direction. Just like God chose David to be king, knowing he would fulfill His will, He also didn't choose those that He knew wouldn't fulfill His will if He had chosen them.
This should be pretty clear to anyone who has studied the Bible long enough.
Here's another example:
Genesis 20:3-6
[3]But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
[4]But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
[5]Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
[6]And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Here we see that God knew what Abimelech would have done had He not warned him in a dream. The Bible is full of examples like this. I don't believe everyone was ignorant of this teaching until some man came along and introduced it to the rest of us.
So God sets the stage without obstructing humanity's free will within set stage so to speak?
What a crock! People are starving !
Don’t we all do this anyways ? All of us to some extent or other can run simulations of what if? If u have enough variables taken into consideration u can predict a lot of things … granted without factor x … the variable of unpredictability…
Open theism again. Probability not nessesary.
@@chriswest8389 what do u mean ? Can u elaborate… it’s been a while …
@@scubasteveae86alemar74 what do I mean by open theism? God is not omniscient. He cant, logically know for certain what free beings will choose.Open theism again I put in as at least two molinists seem to say the same which is not w.l.Cs version of molinism anyway
@@chriswest8389 how than can scriptural prophecy work ? He must know for instance looking forward into the future certain events … for instance look at the fall of Babylon . The Bible for told that the fall of Babylon would go to the mead and Persians . Or even after that … that the temple in Jerusalem would fall to the Roman’s and for the Christian’s to flee out of that city … after it was encircles by the Roman’s … how is it possible to not be able to foretell events ?
@@scubasteveae86alemar74 you must be assuming biblical inerancy. O K. I'll grant that for the sake of argument. Yes, how would an open theist deal with that? Good question. Motivations, only God knows,Means, God can possibly mess with people's freewill .Even the saved as long as their, well still saved, either this world or in the best of all possible molinists worlds.( Neo molinism for the open theist. An option they cannot refuse. how else to explain people dammed who don't hear the gospel. This properly doesn't apply to Calvinist theology. Not exactly providentialism here Id say) So, God can certainly use the unsaved for his ends( in the case of Saul to Paul, for the good. No moral problem their either) He can maneuver unsaved to reek vengeance on say, municipalitys resisting divine will. Or, even to pushish wayward allies.Of course, our world ,is a parallel world, different inputs equal different outputs.Now the question of Judass betrayal of Jesus. If Judas has lost his freewill paradoxically By his freewill, this is even easier morally speaking. He, God, can push Judas into betraying Jesus gareenteed. Hes not a free agent thus the gloves can come off totally.One thing though, Judas is going to be punished more still than he would have otherwise.Asuming the same C.C.Fs , Moli world, I'm just pushing the problem bk one level. As for Jesus on the cross, your not going to like this but it does make sense I think. Postulating an incarnational jesus, he can't have freewill. He can't be tempted in the wilderness as God the son is eternally perfect.Its the Ordeal in the desert. Massive moral metaphysical, at the meta level, contradictions otherwise . Now, at a human level, it's totally understandable that Jesus would call out to get off the cross, but if anyone could hand it, he could. The God part of him has to prevail again, as God always has to do the maximally great thing required at the time.
guess I am a molonist
God's reaction in Gen 6 to the wickedness on Earth seems to be a good verse for Molinists.
So this is kinda like open theism but in Spanish.... Let me say this, herejía aún así!!
And why do you think it's heresy? How do you refute the scripture provided?
@@ThePracticalApologist that's scripture cheery picked out of it's context!!
Using biblical words doesn't mean that it's God's Word as it was written!!
@@ThePracticalApologist For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:9-13 NKJV
*Before* it happened God ordained it, promised it and it was fulfiled! He was not subject to an "act of man" in order to know the outcome! He said it! And He underlined it: _for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls_
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Ephesians 1:4-6 NKJV
Again! He chose, He predestined and Made us. All prior to any "act of man".
He is Omniscient and He is Sovereign about His Own Creation and conditioned by NO ONE!
But you know this! The problem a lot of people have is not that the Bible is unclear, but because it is TO CLEAR and they don't like it and invent all kinds of twisted logic to jump around the actual clear Truth!
I encourage you to read this article:
www.apuritansmind.com/historical-theology/heresy-in-the-church/the-heresy-of-middle-knowledge-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/
Molonism is determinism wrapped up in a neat bow. It does nothing to solve the problem of free will.
Agreed. It isn’t even free will in the compatibilist sense, since God consciously ordains our choices.
As a Calvinist with Molinist leanings I think about that a lot. For me, determinism doesn’t bug me but I think it depends on where one decides to appeal to mystery. I think pretending Molinism is free from determinism would also be inaccurate
Correct me if im wrong, but Determinism has God moving the will of persons either directly or through secondary causes. God determines all things; there is no free will.
Molinism doesn't have this feature. On Molinism, persons freely choose from a range of options without being determined. God, being omniscient, knows all things: 1) all that could happen, 2) all that would happen with free creatures in any situation, His creative decision to actualize a feasible world, 3) God know all that will happen. On Molinism, persons make their decisions freely.
On Determinism, God makes all decisions for persons, there is no consideration for free will at all.
The grounding issue still get me. IF in Moli land were talking simulation not actual worlds , like with real people in them, then how does this even begin to work? Why doesn't God just save everybody in everybody saved scenario world? And ,if in Moli land, it Is a simulation, then how can molinism be in any way the moral playground for us. We, real people, did Not exist up there, wherever it may be. This world then can be the only one that counts as to salvation.
@@Pastor_ChiefI'm curious as to how you don't have a problem with determinism. Obviously your not a universalist. Even then, universalism via purgatory, is not a piece of cake, or would that be pie. One thing I kinda admire about Calvinists is , your not here to defend the Bible, your hear to declare it. You'll proudly flip the Europhre dillimma on its bk and claim victory for divine command theory, executive privilege. Moral carte blanche. Perhaps even epistomological.
I might guess that Jesus did not know everything that God knew, even though Jesus was God, because God can compartmentalize his knowledge.
God the son who took On, did Not Become Jesus the son, he took his powers off line and gave himself complete Amnesia.
LOL, some priest had random thoughts,and then voila, its a christian doctrine
That's basically what all of Protestantism is, haha.
Calvinists actually believe in the futility of free will
I appreciate the video, however…how can I take anything that you have to say seriously after your statement about cake vs. pie?!? Pie has no icing, therefore it’s a logical impossibility that it is better than cake. #teamcake #iwillhavealittlebitofcakewithmyicingplease
Heresy. Acts 2:23
Could is probability, not certainty.A vs Non A. Open theology is certainly simpler.Knowing all possibilitys is one thing, knowing what a free agent will choose is another. At the very least, if Determanism equals A, then you have example A. You cant, can you, use the same illustration to demontrate the truth of non A, non determinism? So, god knows what Liza, the rainbow cloured giraffe, would do because the beginning -:the antesitent, is in the ending. And God also knows what Liza Will do, the beginning, because its what she would do. The end is in the beginning. Its like a circle. However, with a moral free agent, dont you have to replace would with could?. God knows what Peter Could do, probability, because he has free choice because God cant know What he Will do There is No circle here. Ive probably got this wrong because its such a basic argument agaisnt molinism. Im sure james White would have thought of it, and used it as part of his arsenal to bust molinism wide open.