Just tested it and I'm not the speedy clicker like I thought I was. Think I'll change my accessibility settings and will enjoy some coffee during future wolf struggles. Thanks for this amazing video and for helping us all to survive just a little bit longer.
Excellent as always! The only other real analysis I've seen was a steam communities post from either 2017 or 2018. It was based entirely on player damage outcomes over a broad series of trials and it concluded the hammer was the best weapon available to interloper players. I had no idea the improvised hatchet was more likely to prevent death until now. In reality, knowing doesn't really change much, because I will still carry a hammer until I get a hatchet anyway, but thank you for settling it!
It's worth pointing out that even in those old tests, while the hammer had the best average outcome, it had a much higher variance(the graph even showed the standard deviation for each weapon iirc.) This was also backed up by the fact that the hammer caused more deaths during testing, despite the better average performance. It's been "known" since these tests that the hatchet is the statistically superior weapon from the standpoint of survival likelihood(unless your health is already low enough that your best shot is the hammer scare chance.) Of course, once again the insane level of detail from Bashrobe's research now allows us to understand much more of the inner workings behind this :)
@@Pest789 Yeah also I think there was a broad misunderstanding of the results. Understanding variance and the impact it has here requires at least a moderate understanding of statistics that many players don't have, and even *with* that knowledge, it was pretty easy to glance at the conclusions and see that the hammer was "obviously" best overall.. so I think that got assumed and repeated a lot over the years.
I never took statistics, but I have a practical understanding of standard deviation from trying (sometimes even successfully! 😂) to hand load accurate rifle ammunition. I definitely prioritized the tendency to end the struggle quickly over the relatively low probability of a very bad outcome, mostly because it's often what happens *after* a wolf struggle that ends up killing a player. I also definitely tried hard to evangelize my opinion on the subject as well. 😂
I actually really love your content, keep doing more please. You are not getting rn many views (but you will get more), but it makes your channel even more precious, you can feel the long dark ambience. thank you very much. good luck from Russia
Played this game for about 400 hours over the past few years, and I've never understood these mechanics until watching your videos. Thanks for the hard work in making these, I learn something new every time 👍
I have a maglens only / forgeless run in my VOD channel (still ongoing). I might do day 1 loper series for all loper spawns in the future, but not anytime soon.
Wow, I can't believe I've never heard of your channel before! This is really good informational content, I'd say it's even up there with the likes of Archimedes and Zaknafien. Lovely work, keep it up!
Thank you very much for this video, Bashrobe. I use the click and hold accessibility setting, mostly to mitigate my tendonitis, and it is nice to know that I'm probably not sacrificing any efficiency in struggles. Knowing the default setting is for younger people with faster twitch reflexes sets my mind at ease.
Yeah the press and hold is quite generous with its efficiency. I'm young and still use it, it's not easy to consistently beat it without autoclickers or something, and I don't want a carpal tunnel 😀
Thank you again, Bashrobe. I always appreciate how you use hard numbers in your videos. They are very helpful. I like the accessibility settings in TLD. I just turned all of them to on. I find they add to the game experience
amazing video, especially how detailed the covering of various scenarios is. So the hatchet is (generally) best on loper, unless one likes gambling with their life. Interesting abt progress bar being harder to fill on stalker than loper (especially in relation to the custom being different, cause without that I'd think it might be intended since stalker is meant to be wolf heaven, but as is, it seems like an oversight?) One thing I have a question for though, leveling up revolver makes it better in struggles in some way iirc. Does that do anything special, since it didn't seem to be in the video? Also, for some reason I was convinced Moose do 50%, not 60%. Wonder why
The best tool depends on too many factors, but generally it's a choice between hatchet/knife/revolver. Hatchet is a pretty good choice overall as it's the best in the worst scenarios, like when you're exhausted, and timberwolves (where knife/revolver shine) deal less condition damage anyway. I think the Stalker/Loper bar thing is a bug, custom preset settings should be consistent with base settings, so it's really strange. I don't think Revolver skill affects the success, it's just a flat chance. But I didn't test it too deep.
Given the random factor I feel a lot less bad about tabbing out when I miss with my bow and forcing steam to Exit the game so I can try again from my last save point.
Also I play on mute so I can't hear them coming sometimes. Would be nice if the subtitles weren't just the survivor but for nearby animal noises. But alas.
My advice is to never get in a struggle in the first place. Moose struggles are the ones I dread the most. They might deal the least damage and almost never kill you, but broken ribs is a brutal affliction.
Thanks man! Your videos help a lot, I recently made it to 66 days on Interloper, but due to wolves it ended, might have used the wrong tool for struggle 👍
Legit died to wolf struggle from full HP in Interloper, I was fully kitted(no animal coats yet), had a prybar and even had combat boots for extra damage mitigation. Game rolled like 4 afflictions but soon as my HP hit ~50% the screen blackened and said I died to wolf attack.... I honestly think there was some weird bug involved...
Seriously,when using mouse,I can't hit 8 times per second…But I still dicide to struggle on my own.that's more EXCITING. Anyway,thank you for your trials and video.Now I'm considering to use my hatchet rather than my knife if the wolf carries my arrow on its back:)
Very interesting. I have thousands of hours in this game and I always thought the hammer was the best bet all the way around on interloper. Thanks for doing the science! Do you happen to know how much struggles damage the improvised hatchet on average?
Quite a bit, unfortunately. It's affected by struggle duration, if it's the whole 8.5 seconds, it loses roughly 12.5% condition. Luckily most of the time the struggles are faster, and you can expect around 3-4% condition damage.
I never tested this as I always use the hunting knife (i play stalker). It made sense to me that the knife was better because I felt as though the bar filled faster. Also the game is "realistic" because I can never imagine a scenario in which a hatchet is better than a knife, after all a good swing from a hatchet is not technically possible while laying down, much less while struggling, besides I've killed a fair share of wolves with the knife. Also they always get wounded so they never bother me again, they bleed out and die somewhere.
@Bashrobe, any idea of where the new Cougar knife sits on the list? I was able to kill the cougar on my first try on release the other day before they removed it, on my long term stalker run. It sounds like it’s supposed to be more effective but just wondering if you have any data on it yet. Thank you for all your hard work and everything you do to help players survive the long dark!
From some quick testing it's probably the best for damage/struggle bar increase, kind of like a combo of hatchet and hunting knife. Hammer is still better for RNG scare, but overall the claw knife would be the best. If I do a cougar video I'll test it more.
Did they recently make wolf charging speed faster? I was fighting head on, using the bow as I used to and started a new run recently and the wolf charged me down so fast. It appears so, even when I compare the clip to your video. I walked backwards. His approach speed surprised me and felt like I didn’t get much time at all. Landed a shot very close to head shot I guess, he died within half a second of the struggle but it shook me up a bit.
They bug out sometimes. It's best to not make them charge by aiming until they finish their barking animation or until they get close enough and you see them walking normally.
I had a moose stomp about a year ago that destroyed a bedroll from ~60% really sucked cause i had to get to a bed and get a new bedroll while i had broken ribs
What about dlc items? Do different revolvers have different rates or are they all the same? (Assuming they are) Also wondering if you'll make an update regarding the cougar claw knife, since it's supposed to be the best weapon for struggles? Would be interesting to see how big of a difference it actually makes in all the categories.
It just means it's 6 per click, the same as fist, but revolvers are special because you only need to fill half the bar. Note that doesn't make them quite equivalent to 12 as it's more complicated than that. There's bar decay and fatigue reduction that affect weapons with lower bar increase tools (like revolver) much more.
Not sure the 90% of current condition is entirely correct, unless you weren't wearing anything? I recently got mauled on my Loper run (double bear coat, 2x deer pants, rabbit mittens and hat, deer boots) at 100% and was left with around 50% afterwards. Thanks for all the useful info!
It's 90% when naked, yes. All condition damage is modified by protection (except when 10% or less condition which is a special case and usually instant death)
in stalker the best was the hatchet and then i forged an imp hatchet and it was almost the same as normal hatchet. heavy hammer was giving me 40% average damage with 50% protection, hatchet 12% and imp hatchet 15%. in interloper in m getting 30% damage on average with the imp hatchet with 40% protection. all other tools was way worst in stalker so i didnt used them in loper. recently i misclicked and selected the hands and sone from 95% condition to 20% and in my stats it was saying that i lost the struggle lol
Thank you, I wish I could, but these videos take very long time to make as there's a lot of testing behind them, I try to aim for one per 3 weeks but even then it's not always possible.
@@christopherjohnston6343 @DaBirdiee yeah it's possible, just the vest + combat boots + crampons put you at 63%, then there's 20% from moose cloak, 10% from deer pants, and the rest you can get from hat/gloves. But yes, a lot of this clothing gets damaged too quickly, rabbit mittens in particular, and combat boots get destroyed surprisingly quickly too. Aviator cap on the other hand is shockingly durable, almost on par with wolfskin coat or crampons.
No wolves were harmed in the making of this video.
What a pity
*in game only, IRL i'd love to meet a wolf!
how does it feel to be single handedly carrying the TLD's understanding of game mechanics
Just tested it and I'm not the speedy clicker like I thought I was. Think I'll change my accessibility settings and will enjoy some coffee during future wolf struggles. Thanks for this amazing video and for helping us all to survive just a little bit longer.
as a former minecraft pvp sweat im virtually invulnerable to most struggles
Your dedication is amazing.
Excellent as always! The only other real analysis I've seen was a steam communities post from either 2017 or 2018. It was based entirely on player damage outcomes over a broad series of trials and it concluded the hammer was the best weapon available to interloper players. I had no idea the improvised hatchet was more likely to prevent death until now. In reality, knowing doesn't really change much, because I will still carry a hammer until I get a hatchet anyway, but thank you for settling it!
It's worth pointing out that even in those old tests, while the hammer had the best average outcome, it had a much higher variance(the graph even showed the standard deviation for each weapon iirc.) This was also backed up by the fact that the hammer caused more deaths during testing, despite the better average performance. It's been "known" since these tests that the hatchet is the statistically superior weapon from the standpoint of survival likelihood(unless your health is already low enough that your best shot is the hammer scare chance.)
Of course, once again the insane level of detail from Bashrobe's research now allows us to understand much more of the inner workings behind this :)
Apparently I made my conclusion back then and forgot all about the details. :)
@@Pest789 Yeah also I think there was a broad misunderstanding of the results. Understanding variance and the impact it has here requires at least a moderate understanding of statistics that many players don't have, and even *with* that knowledge, it was pretty easy to glance at the conclusions and see that the hammer was "obviously" best overall.. so I think that got assumed and repeated a lot over the years.
I never took statistics, but I have a practical understanding of standard deviation from trying (sometimes even successfully! 😂) to hand load accurate rifle ammunition. I definitely prioritized the tendency to end the struggle quickly over the relatively low probability of a very bad outcome, mostly because it's often what happens *after* a wolf struggle that ends up killing a player. I also definitely tried hard to evangelize my opinion on the subject as well. 😂
shots from a revolver, whether hit or not, are included in the sandbox table in the revolver hits section - depending on the result :)
Great video Bashrobe --- thanks for all your hard work on this!
I actually really love your content, keep doing more please. You are not getting rn many views (but you will get more), but it makes your channel even more precious, you can feel the long dark ambience. thank you very much. good luck from Russia
Played this game for about 400 hours over the past few years, and I've never understood these mechanics until watching your videos. Thanks for the hard work in making these, I learn something new every time 👍
Crazy effort for this vid, or actually for all of your vids. Would love some Interloper journey documented.
I have a maglens only / forgeless run in my VOD channel (still ongoing). I might do day 1 loper series for all loper spawns in the future, but not anytime soon.
@@Bashrobe whatever you do bro you deserve more subs. Crazy crazy effort.
This video is perfect timing considering what I've been messing around With in TLD. Thanks Bash!!
Have been waiting for this video since I started playing TLD
Wow, I can't believe I've never heard of your channel before! This is really good informational content, I'd say it's even up there with the likes of Archimedes and Zaknafien. Lovely work, keep it up!
Thank you very much for this video, Bashrobe. I use the click and hold accessibility setting, mostly to mitigate my tendonitis, and it is nice to know that I'm probably not sacrificing any efficiency in struggles. Knowing the default setting is for younger people with faster twitch reflexes sets my mind at ease.
Yeah the press and hold is quite generous with its efficiency. I'm young and still use it, it's not easy to consistently beat it without autoclickers or something, and I don't want a carpal tunnel 😀
When playing on laptop You can click both on mouse and laptop touchpad that way doing twice as much clicks per second. ;)
This is huge thank you for commenting this
Very informative video. Thanks, Bashrobe.
Thank you again, Bashrobe. I always appreciate how you use hard numbers in your videos. They are very helpful. I like the accessibility settings in TLD. I just turned all of them to on. I find they add to the game experience
amazing video, especially how detailed the covering of various scenarios is. So the hatchet is (generally) best on loper, unless one likes gambling with their life. Interesting abt progress bar being harder to fill on stalker than loper (especially in relation to the custom being different, cause without that I'd think it might be intended since stalker is meant to be wolf heaven, but as is, it seems like an oversight?)
One thing I have a question for though, leveling up revolver makes it better in struggles in some way iirc. Does that do anything special, since it didn't seem to be in the video?
Also, for some reason I was convinced Moose do 50%, not 60%. Wonder why
The best tool depends on too many factors, but generally it's a choice between hatchet/knife/revolver. Hatchet is a pretty good choice overall as it's the best in the worst scenarios, like when you're exhausted, and timberwolves (where knife/revolver shine) deal less condition damage anyway.
I think the Stalker/Loper bar thing is a bug, custom preset settings should be consistent with base settings, so it's really strange.
I don't think Revolver skill affects the success, it's just a flat chance. But I didn't test it too deep.
Given the random factor I feel a lot less bad about tabbing out when I miss with my bow and forcing steam to Exit the game so I can try again from my last save point.
Also I play on mute so I can't hear them coming sometimes. Would be nice if the subtitles weren't just the survivor but for nearby animal noises. But alas.
Yucky
My advice is to never get in a struggle in the first place.
Moose struggles are the ones I dread the most. They might deal the least damage and almost never kill you, but broken ribs is a brutal affliction.
Thanks man! Your videos help a lot, I recently made it to 66 days on Interloper, but due to wolves it ended, might have used the wrong tool for struggle 👍
Very useeful vids for community thx.
Great video as always!
Legit died to wolf struggle from full HP in Interloper, I was fully kitted(no animal coats yet), had a prybar and even had combat boots for extra damage mitigation. Game rolled like 4 afflictions but soon as my HP hit ~50% the screen blackened and said I died to wolf attack.... I honestly think there was some weird bug involved...
Seriously,when using mouse,I can't hit 8 times per second…But I still dicide to struggle on my own.that's more EXCITING.
Anyway,thank you for your trials and video.Now I'm considering to use my hatchet rather than my knife if the wolf carries my arrow on its back:)
Very interesting. I have thousands of hours in this game and I always thought the hammer was the best bet all the way around on interloper. Thanks for doing the science! Do you happen to know how much struggles damage the improvised hatchet on average?
Quite a bit, unfortunately. It's affected by struggle duration, if it's the whole 8.5 seconds, it loses roughly 12.5% condition. Luckily most of the time the struggles are faster, and you can expect around 3-4% condition damage.
I never tested this as I always use the hunting knife (i play stalker). It made sense to me that the knife was better because I felt as though the bar filled faster. Also the game is "realistic" because I can never imagine a scenario in which a hatchet is better than a knife, after all a good swing from a hatchet is not technically possible while laying down, much less while struggling, besides I've killed a fair share of wolves with the knife.
Also they always get wounded so they never bother me again, they bleed out and die somewhere.
I didn't know revolver could shoot if you fill up the bar to 50%
@Bashrobe, any idea of where the new Cougar knife sits on the list? I was able to kill the cougar on my first try on release the other day before they removed it, on my long term stalker run. It sounds like it’s supposed to be more effective but just wondering if you have any data on it yet. Thank you for all your hard work and everything you do to help players survive the long dark!
From some quick testing it's probably the best for damage/struggle bar increase, kind of like a combo of hatchet and hunting knife. Hammer is still better for RNG scare, but overall the claw knife would be the best. If I do a cougar video I'll test it more.
Great guide thanks 😊
Did they recently make wolf charging speed faster? I was fighting head on, using the bow as I used to and started a new run recently and the wolf charged me down so fast. It appears so, even when I compare the clip to your video. I walked backwards. His approach speed surprised me and felt like I didn’t get much time at all. Landed a shot very close to head shot I guess, he died within half a second of the struggle but it shook me up a bit.
They bug out sometimes. It's best to not make them charge by aiming until they finish their barking animation or until they get close enough and you see them walking normally.
@@Bashrobethanks for the reply I will keep that in mind ^^
I had a moose stomp about a year ago that destroyed a bedroll from ~60% really sucked cause i had to get to a bed and get a new bedroll while i had broken ribs
Useful info.
:00
Thanks for the vid!!
thank you
Most of the time you won’t have the hammer in inventory anyway…
Do the revolver variants have different stats in a struggle? Like might the Warden's revolver fill the bar faster or kill the wolf more?
What about dlc items? Do different revolvers have different rates or are they all the same? (Assuming they are) Also wondering if you'll make an update regarding the cougar claw knife, since it's supposed to be the best weapon for struggles? Would be interesting to see how big of a difference it actually makes in all the categories.
The variants are all the same. I'll probably make a cougar video where I can do the update on the knife
@@Bashrobe Great 👍🏻 good luck with the death kitty 🤭
You can do a video about the Feats ?
Yeah I might do that at some point
Does the bar fill speed for the revolver "6*" mean that it is 6 factoring in the 50% threshold, or that the fill speed effectively doubles to 12?
It just means it's 6 per click, the same as fist, but revolvers are special because you only need to fill half the bar. Note that doesn't make them quite equivalent to 12 as it's more complicated than that. There's bar decay and fatigue reduction that affect weapons with lower bar increase tools (like revolver) much more.
some wolves have 3 Kg of meat on them and some others 5+. Are the 5 ones doing more damage in a struggle?
Not sure the 90% of current condition is entirely correct, unless you weren't wearing anything? I recently got mauled on my Loper run (double bear coat, 2x deer pants, rabbit mittens and hat, deer boots) at 100% and was left with around 50% afterwards. Thanks for all the useful info!
It's 90% when naked, yes. All condition damage is modified by protection (except when 10% or less condition which is a special case and usually instant death)
Hi bro make all shortware caches in zone of communication
in stalker the best was the hatchet and then i forged an imp hatchet and it was almost the same as normal hatchet. heavy hammer was giving me 40% average damage with 50% protection, hatchet 12% and imp hatchet 15%. in interloper in m getting 30% damage on average with the imp hatchet with 40% protection. all other tools was way worst in stalker so i didnt used them in loper. recently i misclicked and selected the hands and sone from 95% condition to 20% and in my stats it was saying that i lost the struggle lol
last was on interloper, loosing a struggle and survive was so strange...
What if i use an auto clicker with 50ms click delay?
How good that would be?
Heavy hammer
Why does a channel that gives the best guides and information receive so little attention? I think it would be better if you post a video once a week.
Thank you, I wish I could, but these videos take very long time to make as there's a lot of testing behind them, I try to aim for one per 3 weeks but even then it's not always possible.
@@Bashrobe ohh okay
mentioning the cps thing i did a cps (clicks per second not child protective services lol) and i click at 8 cps
So enable the setting and sit comfortably
@@shroomer3867 nah I’m good
Bashie can you get 100% protection on loper? lol bear mauling section of the video was giving Hunted 1 BabyRage Good Work Good RUclips vid🍓◻️🧈🎉
It seemed like 102% was possible from the clips but I'd assume it would degrade too quickly?
@@christopherjohnston6343 @DaBirdiee yeah it's possible, just the vest + combat boots + crampons put you at 63%, then there's 20% from moose cloak, 10% from deer pants, and the rest you can get from hat/gloves. But yes, a lot of this clothing gets damaged too quickly, rabbit mittens in particular, and combat boots get destroyed surprisingly quickly too. Aviator cap on the other hand is shockingly durable, almost on par with wolfskin coat or crampons.