Harley Davidson is in Trouble
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2020
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A big part of the problem can be explained with a simple analogy: Imagine if the American auto industry was only dominated by one company to compete with whole world. Now imagine that Company was John Deere.
I'd buy one, especially if it cut my lawn.
Harley Davison are like a washed up film star living on past reputation
Getting a divorce every three years just to stay in the lime light...
Ron Jeremy ? ..... just try to get the image of him at Sturgis outta your head.
ahhahahahahahah
such hatred stephen? I know you ride a Honda, because you cant afford a Harley
@@billgonzales2339 id rather walk than have an over rated over priced harley and No i don't have an Honda But then I dont see many Harleys in Moto GP or World superbikes so yes Honda is more appealing than Harley
@@billgonzales2339 I'll ride a Ducati, same price, big twin, fast, nimble and Harley can go by the way of the DODO BIRD, ... Darwin!
I remember in 2006 I went to buy a Fatboy, $5000 cash in my pocket for down payment. I told the salesman I wanted a basic bike, no options. He said he had two and there they are. I commented that the bike was not basic because on the website Fatboy MSRP was $3500 less than the tag on the handlebars. He said with a smug attitude, that’s a suggested price, we can charge what we want and then he walked away from me. That day I went and bought a Vulcan 1600 classic and kept the $5000 in my pocket.
Ten years later, I’m a more savvy buyer. Bought a 2016 Electra Glide Limited, list $28k but got a great price. So I thought. I had that bike 6 months and it left me sitting twice and went to the dealer 5 times for warranty work. What a piece of crap. I traded it in on a BMW R1200RT and never looked back. It’s been a perfect bike.
Mike B Say what you want, fan boy but the MOCO is tanking. The last good motor they made was the EVO. Even the new M8’s are falling apart with oil blow by into the combustion chamber from weak rings, oil scavenging from the primary to the tranny, and a host of other issues. And by the way, the Vulcan was an awesome bike and a great tourer. I had it for four years, not one issue, never went in for warranty work, paid $10.6k out the door and with 60,000 miles I sold it for a fair price of $3600.
@Mike B I waved at all riders while on my Vulcan 750 from scooters to big cruises and all brands. 90% of the people not on a Harley waved, maybe 10% of Harley riders did. That pretty much sums all Harley owners up.
I picked up a 1600 Roadstar for 6000 aud (for comparison, a same year softail would be 10-15k second hand here). My mate bought said softail for 12. So far mines been faster, more reliable, better on fuel and looks just as good....
I bought a 2006 SoftTail and still ride it today. No problems. No such problems buying my bike. They even threw in some screaming Eagle Exhaust.
@@leebrewer7394 even the 10 percent that do?
In 1984 I traded my HD Electra Glide in for a brand new Honda Goldwing Aspencade. I just rode it an hour ago.
I prefer more nimble machines (sport nakeds), but they are impressive and I’ll probably go that road someday. They definitely don’t leave you anywhere near as sore when you put on 800 miles in a day. 😓
I bought a GS800 thinking an adventure bike would be awesome to explore with.
Knobbies are not great highway tires and the seat was too narrow for the 1500 miles I rode it. Guess I know why everybody loves the bloody 1200.
Thanks for letting us know what bike you bought 36 years ago.
@@jaromor8808 You must not ride? 36 years on a bike is really damn impressive. I swap my bikes out every 30k miles... mostly because I like riding new bikes that don’t require the maintenance and care a bike over a decade old requires, much less 30+.
Trust me, I hate working on 20 year old thumpers, much less trying to clean and balance four carbs...
Liar
@@DrTranofEvil I have more than one bike. The Wing is just my favorite. I'm honored to be a retired motorcycle mechanic. I love bikes.
Dear Harley-Davidson,
Hahahahahaha! This is what you get, for so many years of sleazy business practices.
Yours truly,
A former loyal customer
Motorcycle with big diesel engine
Ditto!
traded in my new 2012 Dyna Wide Glide in 2014 for a new 2014 Indian Chief Vintage (which i still have). Dont see myself going back to Harley anytime soon
Yes, I learned to ride on a Harley over 25 years ago and owned nothing but. Until recently when I bought a Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe used. A much better bike for almost half the price, I'm totally happy with my Yamaha best bike purchase I've made ever, and as far as "Hardly" goes, ADIOS I won't be back. I should've switched sooner.
Another move Harley made in the nineties was to squeeze out the mom and pop stores who had stuck with the brand through thick and thin. People who actually rode the bikes, who lived and breathed HD. Instead dealers were required to build life style palaces. Multi million dollar facilities that were generally owned by non riding investors looking the rake in the money as the market grew. In order to recoup their investments, bikes were loaded down with chrome accessories and more importantly financed through Harley. Finance is where the money is.
is there a way to reverse this and let people who are truly passionate about the Harley bikes to sell it? This way, it create more competition between dealers and hopefully result in better service and value to the customers. It will be tricky getting this right.
I agree, they want all dealerships to be cookie cutters just that generic money holes where they sell you inferior Chinese parts and expensive clothes that's made In foreign countries.and the clothes are made for y
Young riders, old guys look stupid in skinny jeans and the other strange things.Maybe Karen Davidson needs to change some of her designs..I own serveral Harley's both vintage. plus late models. I hope the Bronx makes It, probably 15,000.00 plus don't need 800lb trail bike.electric out of the question. For now that. Will be over 30"'000.00 for long time Harley supportive of older machines not now can't even buy spark plugs for them, all they're doing is pushing customers to Aftermarket guess they don't need our. business
True story, I bought mine from a country dealer whilst visiting my sister, because back in town where I lived the dealer palace guys were pretentious jerks. At that time a HD guy was there trying to tell them to build a Harley Palace, I stood in defence of the little man, saying that I had travelled four hours to buy off a country dealer because I hated showroom show ponies.
Back then Indians weren't yet a thing again, otherwise I'd buy one of them, knowing what I know now.
As for being overpriced, all bikes are, greed and the need for multi million profit margins make it so. When you can buy a car that seats four people in comfort with all of the modern comforts including airbags and the costs of having to be engineered to pass crash tests for less than the price of most large touring bikes, you gotta wonder if motorcycle manufacturers are so incompetent, that maybe they don't deserve any of your dollars at all.
Just as a side note and as a Road King rider for some years now, if you buy a Harley Tourer instead of an Indian Tourer, you have rocks in your head. Rear suspension travel on all touring chassis'd Harley models is around 55mm or two and a quarter inches versus 114mm or four and a half inches of travel on an Indian. So yeah, the Harley is smoothish on flat perfect roads but the Indian just shreds it on any other road. Harley's have cheap shocks and wobbly chassis and Indians have a Fox shock and a nice tight chassis. The fact that one well known RUclipsr from the southern states rides a Heritage (110mm of rear suspension travel) and not the Road King that he actually would have preferred except for the lack of comfort, should speak volumes. The problem with the Heritage is that you lose one front disc and have spokes to get the comfort and I'd rather not do that and lose chassis length and luggage capacity as well. END RANT.
Well said.
Ducati, Beemer and Triumph have been making this exact same mistake the last few years too.
@@michaelhayward7572 Don't know about US market and customers but in EU Triumph is cosnsidered as the example Harley should take. They have both modern and classic model in their range . The modern ones are really modern, top performance, top equipped and following technical trends. The calssic ones are strongly linked to company heritage and tradition. They hide modern technic underneath classic body and offer great perfomance. Since a while Triumph bikes provide also a fantastic quality. Their finishing is stunning in any detail. That's how a premium feeling is supposed to be build. They are not the cheapest, they are rather the more expensive but certainly the customers can see exactly what he paid for. Acutally their most expensive bike is app. 25K USD so a bit over the bottom of HD bagger prices.
Their biggest mistake was shutting down Buell because their own sub-brand was outselling them... that should have been a strong hint that they were doing something seriously wrong.
Buell never outsold HD what the fuck are you smoking? They never sold a lot of buells . Eric Buell still hasnt been able to be a success either regardless of great his bikes are
B - I - N - G - O ! ... Give that man and myself an EBR 1190sx (your choice?)
@@chopperchopster Buell should never have been sold in HD showrooms/dealerships, wrong staff, wrong clientele, wrong 'CULTURE'.
@@michaeljarchibald7417 probably? Eric Buell also is the creator of the FXR. One of the most wanted bikes HD has ever made. Probably the only thing they ever made that can CORNER! I have an 82 FXRSP . Im restoring it slowly as its hard to find factory correct parts. Eric Buell is now doing Eric Buell racing I think. Not sure it it is still an ongoing company though. They couldnt sell Buells OR the V Rod. Both really nice machines. That V Rod power plant should have been given to Buell instead of working with Sportster motors. HD has had overhead cam liquid cooled projects in the past . They always get shelved as the clientele for HD it would seem will reject it. M8 motors have 4 valve heads and liquid cooling [certain models] . Bout time right? I have pans. shovels . ironheads . and one TC powered Dyna. The Dyna is my daily ride. Walk right past my ol skool stuff because I know the Dyna will start right up and just go .
@@chopperchopster I'm happy for you, that's what it's all about really. HD just simply has nothing that 'convinces me', their history is just dusty old 'history' since nothing they do seems to 'add to that history'. Somewhere in here I said I'd not spend 'motorcycle money' on anything found in an HD dealership, simply they don't make anything I wish to ride. Yeah, EBR lasted a couple of minutes as a manufacturer of 'available to the public' product. then went full race by special order only custom track machines. Don't know if they are still operating currently? ... Maybe Audi will buy HD LOL
I gave up on Harley Davidson years ago. They’re too heavy, too slow, they don’t handle or stop and they are far too expensive and need fixing from new to get them to run right.
They are bought for one reason only - the name on the tank - they are an ego trip for people who think they are somehow special.
Imagine if Honda secretly bought up all Harley stock and rebadged them as Hondas - would they sell a single one - NO of course not.
It’s all in the name.
Thats why most of them you see for sale have ridiculous low mileage. Yeah I got a big old hog only 10000 miles I don't ride much but I got one yee ha lmfao oh BTW its an 89 and I'm gonna sell it for what I paid for it I put 40,000.00 in accessories on it.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@daveross5314 Well remember that $20,000 is just to make the motor make the same power as a 1994 CBR but with all the extra $20,000 they spent on CHROME wrighting the bike down it is still only as fast as a caddy
HD is selling a lifestyle, more than a bike. See the amount of street wear and merchandise sold in a dealer these days.
I have had my 2006 FLSTC for 15 years. It is plenty fast, handles great, stops on a time and I have only had to replace the battery, brake pad, oil and tires in 15 years. Perhaps you should learn how to take better care of your motorcycle.
@@newhampshirelifestyle4233 Sorry, doesn't fly...
I saw a good comment the other day. Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's price. That's Harley.
70's joke. You must be young hey....
People can't afford to pay rent let alone buy an overpriced motor cycle.
Is Ferrari leaving us too?
@@wanaraz That's a good reply, but also brings up a good point. If HD wants to market themselves as "premium" or "luxury", that's fine. But the numbers don't seem to be working out too well for them.
Well to be fair if you're struggling to pay rent you shouldn't own any motorcycle, no matter how cheap.
@@tylergaye5457 or......the only way I can afford rent is by owning a motorcycle, ?
@@David-og7di that's a good way to put it. No everybody drives a car to work .
When Harley finally dies, I don't think most riders will care, and the ones that will will likely be too old for the Harley "lifestyle" and won't even notice
I don't like harleys, but if that happens, harleys will sell tons of money on auctions. Harley Davidson is definitely a part of american history
They will be stepping off there HDs onto electric mobility scooters.
The authentic Harley experience: Finding out how far you can push it before calling for help!
Every time I needed parts or service for my Road King the dealer always made sure I understood just how lucky I was that they were willing to do business with me. Well here we are, HD is again down and out again and I wouldn't go back to a HD dealer if it was the only place on earth I could get something with 2 wheels. Talk about a company with no respect for its customers. It's now BMW R series for the long road. If I live and ride to the age of 100 HD will never see 1 more cent of my money.
DARWIN!
There are good dealerships.
Drop the bad-ones and let them know why they don’t get your money anymore.
Everybody’s got to ‘earn’ their business right?
@@jwm235 A lot of us don't live in places where there are multiple dealerships within a few miles. One is "only" 30 miles away, the other is 150. Neither really stand out as excellent examples.
Harley's problems are of their own making. For years they have continued to build bigger more expensive bikes and demand premium prices while every other brand has focused on building affordable bikes to get people into riding. Harley made the decision years ago to rebrand themselves as "luxury" and "premium", and even transformed several dealerships into boutiques. And during this time, their sales and market share continued to drop. They ignored market trends, and the writing on the wall. If HD goes belly up, it's their own damn fault.
U got that right. the shop in my town was boutique as hell and I was told the budget for bands and entertainment was 500k a year. Everytime I checked it out I concluded this HAS to be a money laundering project here, they would have to sell 100 bikes a month to break even. I got kawasaki disease when I was 14 back in the 60s and had the Jap virus ever since.
Everyone else are building better performing bikes at an affordable price.
Exactly, even they sale for brand name, history and pride, the market doesn't even care so much about that. Harley Davidson doesn't have cheap,easy to ride, reliable and valuable for price and not one of the bike on Harley line up can be the volume maker.
Maybe they can use Japanese strategy, make cheap bike for volume sales to be the spine and backbone for expensive and exclusive bike.
They didn't pay attention to their success.
Imho it's not a matter of price only, bmw and ducati are in the same range prices and they sell pretty good. The biggest problems for hd are the super low value for money, they sell medium quality bikes for premium prices and most of all the brand, here in europe it attracts only non bikers, loser fat people who have no chance to be able to drive another kind of bike. There are people who love hd and won't consider other kinds of bikes but there are people, like me and we are the majority, who don't consider hd motorbikes at all.
The used HD market is flooded. In the next 10 years when most HD owners are dead or dying the used market will overflow. Want a Harley? Buy used.
I've noticed that too. Used bikes have gotten very cheap. I have a 2005 xl883l with 15K on it, great shape, lots of extras, and I will probably just give it away (leave it to someone) because I refuse to sell it for what I could get for it. Getting too old to ride much.
Yep...but I’m not buying. I have a 2008 HD sportster with 8k miles with a puddle of oil the size of a basketball under it...pisses me off. I’ve owned about 50 Japanese motorcycles, mostly sport bikes that have had zero problems. HD quality is not good as Japanese.
Harleys in the UK have always been real expensive. Until now. Now you can get them for nearly 1/2 the price relativly of a few years ago. Lots of them all over Ebay and elsewhere.
That's right on about the time when HD will bankrupt or they will sell the name off.
Maybe a Japanese motorbike company like Honda or Yamaha will purchase it before the Chinese get their hands on it.
It's coming and when it happens all of the old USA used HD bikes price will become very costly. They'll all end up in collectors hands all over the world.
Eastern Cowboy. Well, considering that more than five million Harleys have been made in the 20th century and more than 80% of all ownerships are in the 50+ age range, I don’t think anyone will have a problem buying an HD for the foreseeable future. That would be funny if Honda purchased HD! Considering Honda makes better Milwaukee style cruisers than HD does.
I think it's worth mentioning that many younger riders were interested in the Buell branch of Harley, and it pissed a lot of us off when Buell got axed. I loved those bikes, still do and still own the XB12S. They had their chance to appeal to younger audiences with unique styling and handling and they blew it.
Buell was 10 years ahead. They look contemporary parked next to many of the new machines. Eric Buell is the Lee Iacocca of American Motorcycling. His team's input is the sole reason the sportster evolution engine soldiers on to this very day. HD made a grave error, sealing their fate those many years ago.
Yeah, who can forget the shakey 1200 Sportster engine and 5-speed box? Rose-coloured glasses I am thinking.
Buell were great concepts. Poor build quality though, for what they cost. But some more devopement, better manufacturing and they could have taken on the entire market for naked/sport bikes. Shame they were axed, there was so much potential
Who are you kidding young people are buying Harleys they just go on the interweb at pic from the millions of Harleys for sale that have low mileage at add-ons at a bargain price there's eight and a half million twin cams on the market for sale most with low mileage Npower upgrade bargain prices now for those who shop well when you get a great price at a bargain price it makes you feel really happy
Harley forgot their American Roots over 20 years ago neighbors enjoying the ton of money that the rich Urban biker the born-again fighter with more money than God will throw with them and if you're not rich with more money than God you're not welcome in a Harley shop
This is what happens when you bail out failing companies.
can,t make it on your own...fail or change attitude,,
The bailouts are there to save hundreds of jobs in a time of high unemployment.
@Nightingale you present a strong argument, can I suggest maybe more than one word next time.
The dealers are not bikers anymore they are money people.
So Agree.
Old school bikers are gone, and there is nothing around anymore.
the same goes for harley since many years... and that's the whole problem...
Went for a job years ago in a Kawasaki dealership - guy told me "product knowledge is not important" - wow - I knew then,...
And rude as hell.
Even if harley lowers the prices the dealership will still take advantage of the consumers. I worked at a harley dealer for 2 years and saw people come in all the time and get shafted by the dealership on the price of the bike
How do much should you ask off for a new 19 k bike? 200 id be one those...but I hate negotiating. Craigslist harleys seem like the way to go.
@Black Beard Dave
Harley took advantage of me 100%! My dad always had bikes, family & boyfriend. I always rode on the back of bikes and was sick of asking my boyfriend to take me for a ride. It was always about his “boys”. Finally I was determined to learn & buy my own bike. I took lessons twice to make sure I had it down and felt comfortable & confident enough to get a bike. My boyfriend & I were beefing at the time so when I went to look at bikes & purchase, I didn’t go with him ... BIG MISTAKE.
I’m tall so I tried different bikes to see which one was most comfortable to me ( not realizing at the time a bike could be customized to fit me) ... which was never offered. I also bought a 3yr “VIP” BS contract, which I didn’t realize wasn’t transferrable to other Harley shops. When I had gotten sick of their FU service & threatened to go to another Harley dealer they laughed at me & told me i could go where I wanted but they weren’t going to honor their contract ... Assholes.
Long story short, by the time they got done screwing me over, mind you I paid cash up front for a “New” bike, it was delivered dirty, 1/4 tank of gas, no manual, they kept my stock pipes, (which I didn’t know I was supposed to ask for & they never offered to give to me). They KNEW I was a new rider because I told them. When I got my bike tuned with Stage 1 kit, got V&H 2-in-1 Pro Pipes with baffle (the Harley dealer kept my baffle). They had me buy their “Quiet baffle” because they said I would get a ticket because my pipes were too loud. My gear shift peg kept loosening up & then fell off while I was riding the bike. After bringing back to them several times for this they put something called Locktite on it ( luckily I had already downshifted to stop at a light when I heard a “ping” sound hit the ground). Another incident that happened after they dropped my bike off to me after one winter storage and I took it around the block, one of the saddle bags fell off when I stopped to get something out, which I was shocked they replaced. When I was going thru all of this stuff I kept asking for the manager who was NEVER available or ALWAYS at the Massachusetts store.
It was embarrassing at times riding my bike because ppl were always commenting to me that my pipes weren’t loud enough and once they knew I bought my bike new would ask if they gave me a leather jacket for buying a new bike ... uh no they gave me a magazine box. This Harley Davidson dealer is Yankee Harley Davidson in Bristol, CT. I wouldn’t send my worst enemy to purchase 💩 from them EVER. They had nerve to call & ask me if I was ready to trade my bike ... really?! They will NEVER have the opportunity to abuse me again. Thanks for reading. My bike is a 2013 and whenever I talk about it, it’s as if it happened yesterday. Worse experience of my life EVER. If I was a guy they wouldn’t have gotten away with the crap they pulled.
@@robineasterling507 i watched pretty much the same thing happen to a guy at the stealership i worked at. He came in to buy a bike ended up leaving with a 1998 road king for 21k, he could have bought a brand new bike for that and had a warrenty. They are only worried about padding their pockets
@@robineasterling507 That's nuts.I bought a used bike private.I had an appointment to see these scumbags last week. I'm happy i blew it off.They are so desperate these days.I'm from new haven county myself.
@@drearaujoa6 i went to school to be a harley tech but they dont pay nearly enough to survive at a dealership. If you are looking so a mechanic check out the little mom and pop shops
The fact that we’re in a pandemic and Harley Davidson hasn’t slashed their prices is why they will die💀
wrong they lowered interest and extended loans . Do you even have a new one? If you were making payments yiu would know that , I work in a stealership . Bikes are selling .
I agree, then again they have a history of missed opportunities. Frankly and sincerely, for me they don't have ONE motorcycle that I would spend 'motorcycle money' on! ... I'm 62 years young and NOTHING they sell, for several reasons, remotely interests me, or 'speaks to me'! ... Buell had the goods, missed opportunity for racing fame recaptured AND all the national & international sales that would have generated. NO VISION, and it shows!
Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices
no matter what they are going to stick to the V Twin Just as the Stanley Steamer Co stuck to steam powered cars
Grieg Ragen - if you want to compare - a RS250R two stroke will kick your CB 550s ass on the track
@Pepper Head sort of. A muscle car was about being a working young man having something nice he could blast at a reasonable lick down the highway, and still carry his family and go to work in.
your kinda stupid. Yesterday tech? They had ABS and EFI back then? Moron HD is a digital tech machine like any other these days. Camshaft position sensor. Crankshaft position sensor. Throttle position sensor. O2 sensor. Kickstand sensor. Neutral sensor. Bluetooth interface. Digital sound system. ect ect ect . You can work a new HD without plugging in a diagnostic unit dummy. Modern as can be. Oh you dont like lifters pushrods and rocker arms? Then dont buy anything with a small block V8 from chevy. Same tech. it works. STFU dummy. Do you wrench? I do . Todays HD has zero in common with anything even 10 years ago.
@Grieg Ragen your 74 CB 550 isnt still on the road . its in a junk yard stop telling lies.
Harley dealers and riders have spent years looking down there noses at us, motorcycle riders of more reliable brands and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Don't tread on me.
Yep arrogant pricks like the dealer near me Patriot HD.
Harley D has priced itself out of its core market.
My first bike I really wanted a harley. Like I was dead set on it. But ultimately even a used dyna was stickered at 15k an i couldn't justify it.
...and their core market has aged out of motorcycles
Nah, their core market has aged and the next generation in line (gen X) isn’t much interested in HD. Millennials definitely are not interested in HD. They need radical change...RADICAL. Unfortunately I think they are going to go out of business as a manufacturer.
$13k for a new cruiser by HD
Or
$7k for a new cruiser by Honda
Anyway I just wanted to share that I got a new Honda bike.
@@blurglide Some truth to that statement. When most people retire, their earnings are slashed pretty significantly. That said, when you go to look at a new motorcycle, and your earnings are 1/2 or 1/3 what they once were, a $30,000-$35,000 bike is now like a $60,000-$70,000 bike would have been while still working. I don't know too many working people buying $60,000+ motorcycles......
but they still can sell 90 dollar T shirts
Anyone who pays $90 for a tee shirt definitely needs help. Fools and their money........................ .
45 let’s not execrate too much
@@kreechur4054 for a company that boasts about American pride $45 is still too much for Made-in-China T-shirts
@@kreechur4054 "... _execrate_ ..."?
$90 T-shirts??? What store were YOU in, and what was in your breakfast burrito? Fess up; we won't tell!
I have owed Harley’s my entire life (30 years) and still have a custom FXR. Then I rode a BMW and haven’t looked back Currently ride a K1600B. The technology, power and performance is far superior to Harley. 165 horsepower out of the showroom without spending thousands in add ons.
@31B4P Owned HDs all my life, and regardless of your internet link, after l test rode a 2018 BMW GTL K1600 l immediately traded my 2017 HD Ultra Classic Limited for the BMW. Never looked back, 27,000kms later l am totally satisfied without any regrets. Albeit, my former HOG friends don't even wave to me on the streets and roads; their lost!
@Brandon Macon And, why would l listen to you? Irresponsible rant, if you can argue the validity of my previous comments with comprehensive and constructive criticism and/or sustainable positions; do so, and l will respond in kind.
Harley Davidson is pricing them selves out of business.
But when you say that to die hard fans, they belittle potential buyers and fans like yourself. They don't want to admit that Harley is to blame.
@Joseph Marton evidence?
I really like so many things about Harley, but their hunt for cost savnings damages the build quality. Everything you can see is beautiful but they allow poor precision where it matters. The engine of my new Harley rattles due to piston slap and too large bearing tolerances. Even simple things like balancing the wheels are done without any care at the factory. My new bike had about double the lead on the wheels than they should have. Ridiculous.
@@BFG100K air cooled, pushrod engines naturally make more noise. There isn't a layer of coolant surrounding the combustion chambers to absorb the noise, like liquid cooled engines have. The clearances (tolerance is a manufacturing spec, which tells a part manufacturer how close to spec a part must be to remain acceptable) in an air cooled engine have to be looser to compensate for the wide temperature variations it will experience. Liquid cooled engines maintain a fairly consistent internal temp, and can be built with tighter clearances as a result. As long as it runs fine, those loose tolerances ensure a reliable engine.
Pushrod valvetrains will inherently clatter, there is just a lot of moving parts all clattering together to actuate the valves. I personally like the sound of it. I understand if you don't, there's nothing wrong with that. Perhaps you should consider a liquid cooled, overhead cam bike.
In terms of how many weights a wheel "should have", that is completely subjective. As long it's just handful of weights and it rolls smooth, I could care less. It's not like I'm watching the wheel weights as I ride. 🤷♂️
USMC Vet
You are absolutely right about the requirements for larger clearances for air cooled engines than for water cooled ones. The issue I am adressing is the VARIATION in clearances that Harley allows or let slip through their poor quality control. My friend has a cycle with exactly same engine model. By coincidence it was assembled with parts from the lower range of clearances, and it sounds as it should. You would not believe those two engines are the exact same model. Also the oil consumption between them is like night and day.
Concerning the balancing of the wheels, let me explain: When I had the wheels balanced they remove 50% of the lead in order to be right. It solved the issue that should never have been there in the first place. Again poor quality control.
It's like Harley is trying to ruin themselves...
When asked; What do people want for a motorcycle. They say lighter, faster, fuel efficient, cheap to buy and own.
Honda: We hear you so, here's the Rebel 500
Kawasaki: We hear you, so here's the Vulcan 650 S
Yamaha: We hear you, so here's the Bolt
Harley: We hear you, and don't care, so here's a Cruiser with a V-twin bigger than your car's engine and it'll cost $30K. But added Bluetooth!
Best comment in here
cheezmonta is the same situation happening with General Motors!! Dinosaurs 🦖
Spot on!
@@MyDyerMaker
You see a lot of them because there are a lot of them. But that doesn't mean they're good. Just good at marketing.
I don't need to own a Harley to know they're not a good bike.
There's a reason for jokes like "Harley's don't leak oil, they sweat horsepower".
Back in high school, a friend's stepdad owned a small Harley shop. The stepdad has said he couldn't keep the doors open if Harley's didn't need rings every 15k miles.
That back cylinder on the air cooled V-Twins just gets cooked. And I have yet to meet a Harley owner who doesn't rev their engine immediately after startup when the engine is starved for oil circulation.
You always know who owns a Harley by the burn scar on their right knee from when a push-rod oil seal blows out.
Harley makes really nice looking bikes. They've spent a century building their brand and style.
But they seem to have forgotten that a bike is meant to be ridden. Not be a garage ornament.
@@cheezmonta I don't understand that. Your experience must have been in the 1950s or 60s. I have a Harley that's 13 years old. It's never had a leak, starts instantly and cruises down the highway at 80 mph. The only things that have gone bad are sensors like O2 and a speedometer sensor.
I look at bikes on ebay. The highest mileage bikes on there are always Harleys. The oldest bikes are always Harleys. It's common to see them with 100k miles. There's a guy named Scotty Kerekes who put 500k miles on his bagger.
That's fine that you don't like them, but to say they're no good doesn't make sense to me. I know the truth because I've owned other brands. They were all good.
The HD adventure bike looks like a one-off custom made for an early 90's Van Damme sci-fi movie.
Overpriced, overrated, and out of date...that are the main reasons, why HD is going down...
If you ignore the market around you, you will face extinction...
Colt Firearms is facing down this same problem. Rested on their laurels for so long that they got left behind as their core buyers aged out. While others came out with better options at a more reasonable price.
Its the old World heavyweight champ problem. They forgot what it was to be hungry. And some dedicated, ass busting youngster is coming up through the ranks to whoop that ass.
@@mot0rhe4d40 my 1943 Colt 1911 still works though. Grandad carried it in WW2.
@@chopperchopster Oh do not get me wrong Adam. I have a lot of love for 1911's and Colt's heritage in the gun world ( I am a gun first and foremost). Point was because of those fat Gov. contracts and past success. They stopped innovating. That allowed others to refine their designs to a whole new level and without the higher price that Colt demands, just for being a Colt. And now that those Gov. contracts are going to other manufacturers they are feeling it. Likewise something similar is happening to Harley.
@Terry Melvin Love it all Terry, right tools for the job is all that is. Bear country and it's the M629 Classic 44 mag 5". Caught out for a drive with the family by the Aunty today and it's all Glock 19x. 😉
Y'all be safe.
@@mot0rhe4d40 understood . I dont like paying for a name either.
Take an Evo or Shovel head to your local Harley Dealership for engine repair. Or take your Iron head Sportster to them. They will say, "We don't work on those anymore, take it to Smitty's chop shop, he will work on them." So, HD dealers will not work on HDs that are old. Forget it. I took my Road King to Honda and asked them to put new tires on the bike. They did it and gave me a discount. It cost $80 a tire for them to replace the tires... Now, I own 2 Goldwings along with my Road King. I ride the Goldwings for distance and ride the Road King to the picnic tables... Lee's Honda of Redding has my business for life.
my first week as a tech at a harley dealer. i changed lower rocker gaskets in an evo softail. a few months later i basically rebuilt the wiring harness on an 89 flh. as of now another tech is doing an engine rebuild on an old iron head sporty. the validity of your comment depends on the shop, and here is why. harley davidson does not spend money at schools for them to teach new techs how to work on platforms that went out of production before they were born. they invest in training for there current models because logic. same with buell motorcycles. technically no longer supported by harley and mmi taught me nothing about them. but there's 2 in the shop right now because we have techs who know how to work on them and i have access to a service manual. There's also the fact that old bikes are old... old bike problems can get very expensive labor wise depending on how well they were cared for. that 89 flh i rewired, cost the guy more in labor than it did to buy the bike in the first place. That's why i personally would turn old bikes away. Not because i cant fix it, because most people dont want to pay nearly a $100 an hour for me to dive down the rabbit hole that is there 1989 "ran when parked" barn find.
@@williamdeimos2354 I agree. I did have my 1976 XL1000 Sportster fixed a Ukiah, CA Harley Davidson. Initially, they would not fix the transmission, but they hired a Service Manager who was an old shovel and Iron head mechanic prior to working for HD Ukiah. He worked at a place called The Pig Pen, in Nice, CA. Steve knew iron heads and fixed my transmission. It was the luck of the draw. But, with that said, let's just guess that 90% of the dealerships will not work on old Harleys. But, the aftermarket shops will work on them. Why? That is why Harley loses a lot of customers. They don't support THEIR older products, they want you to buy THEIR new products which become old soon enough. Harley's propaganda videos on its history says that there is a reason 90% of their products are still on the road today. But, it is not because Harley works on them.... It is because of the aftermarket shops and suppliers.
@@ababbit7461 "there is a reason 90% of their products are still on the road today". "It is because of the aftermarket shops and suppliers.
And the owners!
@@wanaraz Yes, the owners are key or they would toss their bikes away like 90% of Japanese dirt bikes do... My 1997 Softail Heritage Springer will be buried with me when I die... That is my wish... I am one of those owners even though the darn bike vibrates my fillings out of my mouth!!
Our local "meca dealership " told me that 10 years was the cut off for anything other than basic maintenance like oil changes and new tires etc.
Let. Them. Fail. They've been screwing their customers for a long time.
Corporate Karma?
@@fml5910 I know I was 'So lead up the garden path'. I get a text on my phone
asking if I'd like to work for Bert's H-D. so I went in on the day told, saw the gen.mgr who set me up for an interview on Wed.with the shop foreman as
I was applying for shop helper. I really thought I'd get the job as I had some
knowledge of bikes, well to cut right to the chace, I was told, "Oh we're not
hiring." "So, why then did I get a text asking if I'd like to work for Bert's H-D?"
I was quite pissed, yet wondering wtf just happened as well. I stood
outside the dealership, thinking "Was it because I rode in on my bike? not
wearing a suit? I wanted that job, maybe because aside from management,
the people who worked there were always quite nice and friendly and I liked
going there for that reason, And doing workshops where they'd show you
how to do some maint like changing oil, checking plugs and cleaning the air cleaner, That was really pretty nice when the dlrship was Jim's.
They have been screwing the American worker too..all made in China now .. Milwaukee is shut down and is only a office and part time museam.and they still let on that they are open and running..a straight up lie..and a small assembly group in Kansas..I think that's closed too
@@o9rgeronimo979 It really is a shame, YUP in a few yrs if that many, H-D a
great T-shirt company. What did H-D ever get from Levatich, who was paid
8 million, fired and given a golden parachute of 11 million, all those business
people who went to business college and still managed to put a company out
of business. B E A U T I F U L L, just FUCKING beautiful. I bet if most of the
board of directors and managers of dealerships actually rode, the company
would be much more secure.
The sales staff screw you when they sell you the bike and keep screwing you when you bring it in for service. They certainly screwed me and I'll never buy from them ever again.
over rated, oh, and over priced. rarely see a rice burner broke down on the highway!
My Yamaha cruiser is leaps and bounds more reliable than a Harley. I've owned and ridden several "Hardlys" over 25 years. Adios Hardly I won't be back!
Been saying this for years!!
Owned a brand new 2015 street gluide!! 700 miles later "No way " weak heavy small framed polished turd. I sold it quick.
I've ridden bikes my whole life. My Suzuki 2008 1800, c109 is the bike for me.
Still strong, well balanced, runs great, quiet, runs cool with liquid cooled engine,,(hello)fuel injected, powerful big and only cost 7,500 new.
Wow it’s like building overpriced underpowered overheating 1930s technology inspired motorcycles was somehow a bad business model 🤷🏼♂️
Cobb Knobbler maybe they’re a little more reliable these days, but they’re still under powered and still using early 2000’s technology. I ride a Yamaha MT09 ($8,000 US) and I can’t think of one characteristic of a Harley that I prefer over my bike. And yes, I’ve ridden plenty of Harley’s new and old.
Tell that to Evinrude, still trying to improve the 2 stroke design.
Cobb Knobbler as much as I want to buy American, I just can’t buy a Harley, and it has nothing to do with the bikes. Nothing, and I repeat nothing, pisses me off more than when I’m driving somewhere and there is a group of Harleys doing 10mph under the speed limit, blocking all traffic and they have zero consideration for other traffic. The $80 t shirts, tassels, bumper stickers and people that live and die by their Harleys. That’s why I will never own one. Unless someone gave me a VRod
Where I live, a lot. A lot of scenic two lane highways. But it’s the whole culture, the pack riding is just an ingredient
Harley is too expensive and I will never ever buy one for that reason.
Harley Davidson has lost everything due to corporate greed and pricing themselves out of business...then they moved production out of the United States...they will go down in history...my first 883 cost $5300 w/pipes, backrest & T-T-T...that bike is $10,000+ NOW
why buy a overseas made bike that is way over priced when I can buy a overseas made bike at a big giant savings like a new Honda gold wing
@Grieg Ragen I guess sitting down to pee isn't all that foreign to you either
@Grieg Ragen The 883 is annoying. All it does is vibrate like it's bigger cousins.
HD was the sole reason why I got my license 5 years ago. When I bought mine a dream came true and I swore only by the custom brand. Sold it after 3 years and now ride a KTM.
KTM is pretty cool!
I just sold my Springer and bought a kTm adventure bike.
Everything you mentioned in this video is absolutely true. After five Harleys l am finished with them. l don't expect Harley to ever recover.
A !men brother,they forgot who stood by them after Harley was bought back from AMF and the Japanese
Harley's deserves every bit of its troubles and I dont feel sorry for them. Overpriced bikes and didnt care that it hasn't done anything but rob its customers.
It's ok . Just let them disappear. Japanese make better bikes anyways .
@Mod Zozer yep. and yet they're slowly dying
@Mod Zozer Owners of broken twin-cam engines with the inherent design fault sure have!
20 years ago when they were high and mighty and acting like it I said enjoy it while it lasts, one day they'll be down and out and when they are I'm gonna kick them while they're down, well the time has come and I'm kicking.
@@dukecraig2402 🤣🤣🤣
I was going to buy a HD, then I woke up and bought a GSXR 750 for the same price ...
Lucky escape
Shopped for a Harley for a long time and “settled” for a 2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 Classic. Never once did I regret my purchase. The bike rides like a dream and I saved a lot of money to put toward a new car. Harleys are gorgeous bikes and well built but the dealers are a total turn off and the prices are crazy. They have to wake up soon.
Harley is on life support, call in Hospice.
@Pcos we're gonna be fine
I thought Harley-Davidson was a t-shirt companies they make motorcycles??
Now that is funny! I have a lot of their T'shirts. I really like H-D and I feel bad it's
heading towards Bob Dylans, 'Desolation Row' where tickets are sent out for the
hanging. Since Nov22 2012 I've gotten in about 45,000 miles of damn good riding
enjoying the freedom of 2 wheels and I love it with a passion. Hopefully they slip
through the noose, get their heads outa their crank-cases and learn that selling
a bike, sometimes u have to lower the price so more will buy. What in the name o'
piston rings are they thinking when they make a dealer expand the facilities? it
means the cost of the bikes will have to go up. I'm no scholar in business and I
have NO trouble saying that, but I see too freaking damn many middlemen trying to
take a scoop out of the H-D pie wanting to get their %age so it leaves a lot of damn
nice bikes sitting on the showroom floor instead o' rolling out the door.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Couple towns over from me I went to by parts for the FXD & they only sold T-shirts.( It was listed as a HD dealer.) Stupid internet. Whole stores dedicated to clothing ! Pff
Key chains too.
@@raymondgarafano8604
Ray I hear you brother I love riding the freedom the wind smells gets me th as t much closer to nature and my god yes and a a HD I have 3 a 09 street glide ,06 soft tail springer, and a 09 rocker ,I gave my son the 2010 wide glide we have put on so many miles together. ..so it was just my sarcasm about them being a t-shirt company but they really need did you get back to what we want how they got to where they were the bikes the new motorcycles are just too damn pricey the free bro
I got my Yamaha Raider in 09, been a good bike so far. When I would ride in groups we would leave a parking lots and everyone would nail it when leaving. My problem was I would have to put the brakes on as soon as I twisted the throttle to keep from running into the back of a harley.
I get it. All my friends have Harleys, I have a Yamaha fjr1300. I have all the storage they do, plus way more go.
In 50+ years of riding, I've learned a few things. My Hondas and BMWs never left oil puddles. They always started and seldom stranded me. I never had to go back to the dealer and shell out thousands to get the horsepower that should have been standard. The dealers sold bikes, not tee shirts.
Harley built itself into a box and has no way out. H-D was so terrified of alienating their geezer riders that they never replaced that stupid air-cooled V-twin with something modern. BMW and the Japanese have retired far better engines than the current H-D, some of them decades ago. Of course, those excellent engines didn't go "potato potato," which is important. The H-D riding coots will tell you what a wonderful engine that V-twin is. The flat head straight eight in my dad's Packard was a great engine, but you don't see a lot of Packards on the road these days.
If you want to know why H-D is doomed, look at the hysterical LiveWire. It took H-D ten years and many millions to wed 1. A battery 2. An electric motor and 3. Two wheels. Thirty grand for less range than I ride my BMW for breakfast? No thanks.
I went to the hd dealer looking at a 883 the dealer came over and asked me why I was looking at a girls bike I left went across the street to the Yamaha dealer and bought a fz09 thank you harly dealer you saved me lots of money
5602jerry I ride the same. It is all sorts of fun. “A” mode is scary.
And Harley wonders why it is in trouble?
When was this? They were happy as could be to sell me a new sportster.
@DSP Thanks for your honesty DSP, Why would a salesman even ask that
sort of question? like maybe a different scenario where the Sporty was
being bot for a girlfriend? The so-called salesperson is supposed to work
for H-D not against H-D. I wonder if a woman was looking at a Sporty,
knowing it was a good bike for her, if she would have been pushed to a
larger heavier bike than what she wanted. It seems the salesman Jerry
had, had some weird personal issues. If he had any brains, when Jerry
spoke to him, it would have all been very + remarks like, a great choice of
bike, ur gonna have a great time riding this bike, And later when you get a
bigger bike, you can pass it down to ur son..
@@raymondgarafano8604 Strangely this seems to be an international motorcycle salesman disease.
There`s a Triumph dealer near me where the sales guy has been single handedly forcing my spending cash back into my pocket for a few years now. (and 2 KTMs and a Ducati)
I often go in out of a sense of curiosity how a "sales" guy can be so rude,offensive,full of his own importance. He ought to be studied by people who do marketing degrees.
I recently bought a used ultra limited Harley 2010 with about 20k in accessories and very low miles for $10,000. 2020 will be my second season riding. I earn a six figure income and I would never spend $40,000 on a new motorcycle! That’s just insane! It seems the new management at Harley doesn’t have a clue. I can totally see Harley Davidson going bankrupt.
I also earned a six figure income twenty five years ago, bought a used Electra glide, Gold Wing and BMW 1200, had more trouble with the Harley and sold it, the other two never gave me any trouble and I swore I'd never have another Harley. Back in the 70's I chopped a 650 Yamaha, a 900 Sportster and a 1000 Sportster, the Harley's were not mine but when the guys i rode with saw my Yamaha they stated it looked like a Harley, sorry, no I don't have any pics any more, they were burnt in a fire, the bike was gorgeous, no internet back then and bought everything by catalogue out of CA, Drag Specialties. They are still around online and bigger and most costly than in the 70's.
40k for a bike is absolutely insane. I bought a brand new BMW adventure bike last year for less than 18k at a dealership. It's amazing how much people will spend just to look pretty going down the road with an HD badge.
@@adamv5386 and the sad part is..their new logo doesn't say Harley anymore. It's just the outer design, no words. The irony of that is hilarious
@@robbieracer3294 Yeah I notice that, probaly would cost them more to put words on their logo.
40K? maybe a CVO for 45k but a 107 M8 street glide or road glide is well below that.
Bold prediction:
Harley Davidson will join Schlitz Beer as a case study in apocalyptic mismanagement that they include in business textbooks.
Goes out and buys a Road Glide CVO
Week later: "we've decided to drop the price of all touring bikes by $5,000"
This would piss off a TON of people who just instantly went from being equity positive to being upside down on their loan.
The only harleys ive bought are used. Feels like the only way to make them worth it.
Bro, that’s exactly what I’m trying to do ... buy a used 2018 RGU... because I can’t afford anything else.
Slow Bro I agree, although my Low Rider was new, I got a good deal trading a couple of bikes I had. I understand Harley’s appeal, they just need to adjust their pricing. They don’t offer the features their competition does. Maybe the new CEO will get it together!
same here, can't afford new ones. the last one I bought was 2002, still riding it. funny thing, I traded a buell in on it and got more for the buell on trade in than I gave for it new. my 18 year old harley is still probably worth at least half of what I gave for it. I'm good, but this is probably the last bike I will own, social security doesn't pay enough for me to get another one.
... and why does HD think that Black is the only color. There are sooo many black RGUs but few other colors.
Absolutely!
After getting screwed by 2 dealers when purchsing my 17 Low Rider S in 16 because theyre a bunch of whores. I finally dealt with #3 dealer in LA for the purchase. I swore off ever buying a new HD. My 2nd HD in my garage I added in 17? A super low miles garage queen 16 Streetglide..... I wouldn't own anything with a M8 and nothing interests me (Pan America is interesting kinda) from the moco these days. Just need em for parts aftermarket doesnt supply....
Harleys are like gibson guitars. OverCharging just for heritage.
The Communist I understand that analogy. I play guitar and always thought Gibson’s were way overpriced too. But for an “American” made product one would think you’d bet a better quality instrument for the cost.
That's confusing because besides Gibson in Nashville I think there is a Hertiage Guitar in Kalamazoo MI with some people from the Origonal Gibson running it.. @The Communist
Yep....looked up the price on a new Les Paul Custom....WOW!
That is a very apt comparison.
Gibson is in trouble for a lot of the same reasons...
Following the Oldsmobile business model, I give HD 5 more years before the big fall.
😢
When going to buy a Harley don't forget to bring the Vaseline.
What about when you go for Service :D
@@DIYBill you'll need a case of Vaseline bill. And my ass is still sore lol.
dont buy new. Duh lots of people are selling their toys. Better yet BUILD your bike yourself.
Don't forget the ground glass with that vasoline!!
You like it with Vaseline Da.
I love Harley Davidson!
I've wanted a Harley my whole life, and just recently I went to a dealership to test ride my dream bike - a 2019 Fat Boy. They were kind enough to let me take it out and give it a try. It's a gorgeous bike, and I was serious about buying, but after that test ride I was horrified to learn how Harley does business...
1) that big 114 m8 that everyone is raving about is a hunk of junk!
It's absolutely gutless! I put it through the paces and it was predominantly sluggish and unresponsive - I fear it wouldn't have enough power to get me out of trouble if things got tight in traffic or if I needed to get some breathing room between myself and other vehicles out on the highways.
2) The brakes are a spongy lame joke!
The ABS is completely untrustworthy and I doubt that bike will safely stop inside of 15 meters from 50 km/h - which is a common necessity on big city roads.
3) The stock exhaust is...pathetic, and leaves much to be desired - like maybe even a little bit of sound and rumble.
4) The piss-poor lighting and signals.
5) No adjustment in the front suspension -which is a typical cost-cutting method for the more budget-oriented bikes.
6) The really uncomfortable passenger seat - can't see my girl enjoying that for more than ten minutes...
7) It handles like a school bus - fights you in every turn above 30 km/h.
8) The gearbox is too clunky and resistant and persuades you to just avoid shifting if possible.
OMG, wait for it...
9) THE PRICE!
CAD $27,500 + tax + freight + PDI which now brings you up around 34 to 35 thousandish...which comes out to 17 million payments of around $600/month - and that's not even mentioning insurance costs...
10) When I got back from the test ride, the salesperson had the paperwork all ready to go but when I complained about all the above, the salesperson started talking so much crap like "Oh yea, most people do a few upgrades on this beaut right away, like a Stage One or Stage Two, and an exhaust, and the light..."
ARE YOU FKN KIDDING ME??? And do you know how much money all those 'bolt on upgrades' cost???
I'm a working man, I got a mortgage to pay, you know, oh yea and maybe even a powerful need to eat sometime this month...!!!
And did you know that Harley charges around $1500 to replace a tire on that bike? Yes, I asked!
Fk that and FK Harley!
It's bad enough that it's supposedly a 'premium motorcycle' at a positively ridiculous 'premium price' but they sell it to you all nice and shiny off the showroom floor but its only capable of 60% of its potential, the rest is up to you in 'performance upgrades'
What a rip-off!! They design the bike to be lame from new, with the hopes of people spending stupid amounts of money to make it decent AFTER paying the outrageous MSRP sticker price...pricks!
I'm going over to the Japs; they'll sell me Godzilla between two wheels -with lots of upgrades and accessories at only half the price of a stinkin Harley -with TWICE the customer service and tech support, and I'll spend WAYYY more time enjoying turning wheels and NOT wrenches. And I can easily skip a few showers and grow my own beard for free!!
Harley hasn't turned a profit in almost ten years, and I DON'T feel sorry for them.
Maybe all their troubles will go away with their new and awesome $37,000 piece of crap Livewire e-bike, or with their new brilliant strategy to reduce costs by having factory production moved to Sri Lanka or whatever other crappy mud-caked country they can shift themselves to and start building a bunch of sh!tbox cheap entry-level or 'affordable' bikes to lure the younger generation to their brand...yea good luck with that you fkn boneheads!
Harley Davidson is goin down because they got their head wedged right up their own @ss!
Good bye Harley...
And I say good-riddance!
And by the way, as I was walking out the door, the salesperson blurted out "Well I can go as low as $25 thousand if you sign now..."
Uh-huh, yea fk off...
Perfect. Nailed it.
Sounds about right
Bang on! That's why they are struggling! I was so close to buying a road King as an upgrade from my 1200 custom ( which I loved but my wife hated lol). After test ride I thought I'd check out Suzuki dealer and tried (and bought) c50t. Fits like a glove, comes with all the goodies and just over 10K CAD. I don't regret it one bit!
You're probably not going to like the Corvette guy too good either.
Hahaha!!!! That was a fantastic read!!! So good I read it twice
Harley seems to think that the Boomer market will be around forever.
Well said sir. The Millennial's have no interest in motorcycles especially Harley's. Most of the ones that I know think that driving a car is labor. I'm not kidding.
@@hmc2s Yup... Most Millenials have no interest in cars/pickup trucks, motorcycles and guns. I don't think the car industry will go away, but the motorcycle and gun manufacturers are going to take a beating in another 10-15yrs.
One of the big things that will take a huge hit is going to be collectible automobiles. From what I understand, you're already seeing it with the early cars (Model T's, etc...) where you can pick up a fully restored car for a fraction of what was paid to restore it. Cars from the '40's and '50's will be next, then the muscle cars of the '60's and early '70's. And so on... Gen-Xr's like myself will only have to wait 10-15 years and the Chevelles, GTO's, Camero's, Chargers, etc, will be a bargain hunter's dream...
I think the same is true for a lot of other collectibles as well... So all you "Boomers" that have expensive collections (cars, guns, bikes, etc...), you might want to think about unloading them in the next 5-10 years if you expect to get a good return on your investment, or if you're like my late father, who was planning on depending on his gun collection to fund his retirement (and was woefully disappointed that his collection wasn't worth what he'd hoped).
The only millenials will be collecting is gaming consoles and welfare checks
@@internalmanofmystery and people wonder why millenials aren't attracted to motorcycling...you just highlighted one of the main reasons...none of them want to hang around with blowhards like you.
@@WHJeffB not happening, the classic cars are going up and up and up. Concentrating in fewer and fewer hands that can afford them. Younger generation into cars can't afford them, want 90s to mid 2000s, just to get away from computer controlled everything and bells constantly chiming.
I surprised this hasn't happened sooner. I worked at a dealership from 98'-07'. Clothes, chrome and engine upgrades were where the money was at. But the bikes get them through the front door. HD always seemed behind the curve when it came to coming up with styling ideas and new directions. I was at an HD show in 99' and saw a street version of a VR-1000, it was beautiful, I told the factory guy next to me that HD should produce that bike, I told him "you need to get younger people into the dealerships" he laughed.
I liked Harleys when I was kid, but now that I have grown up and actually ride, I have only had Kawasakis. They are great bikes and are extremely affordable compared to HDs.
Same thing with Honda. I generally find Hondas are about half the cost of Harleys. Not to mention economical to maintain. A put off with Harleys is; here we are in the 21st century, yet HDs still are not liquid cooled. Good luck in hot weather.
Harley reliability is legendary. 85% of Harleys are still on the road. The other 15% reached their destination.
Hahaha
thats a funny comment made me chuckle.
phlodel 🤣
Bert Waldmann the greatest president this country has ever witnessed. All future presidents will be held to a way higher standard because of the transparency of this administration.
@@T.R.R.Jolkien You're kidding right? Fuck trump with his crooked and inept administration.
I sold my last Harly, then went to buy another one and the salesman was extremely dismissive and they tried to set me up with a loan with a 10.99% interest rate. I refused. Then as I was getting in my car they came out and said we got the rate down to 5.99, I said no, two days later Harley announced a 1.99% interest rate. BMW’s look nice.
Bmw are nice, but super, super, expensive , when you have two pay for repairs, they will kill your pockit😱😱😱
I hate snake salesmen
John Galt greediness will kill them.
My last bike was a BMW R1200, loved that bike, but the maintenance was expensive. It was the most rock solid dependable machine that I ever owned though, and a blast to ride.
@@wilsonmercado2287 You can buy a loaded BMW for thousands of dollars LESS and have a reliable, comfortable and "maneuverable" bike. If you're only reason to ride a bike is to ride from bar to bar and pose, then the HD is your bike. If you are a rider, there are better choices out there. Before you all start flaming, HD does make some very good bikes, and some models are very fun to ride, but for the money, you get far more bang for your buck on other brands of motorcycles.
I'm still waiting for someone to win the Isle of Man TT on a HD.
OOO-eeee, t-h-a-t'-s a v-e-r-r-r-r-y l - o - n - g w - a - i - t !!! .... Or, would alternative 'facts' work for you?
Wait for a few hundred years.
HD couldn’t make it in AMA Superbike Racing
Hit the nail on the head: forcing customers to pay extra on things that should come as standard. Because of this I went elsewhere. Screw you harley, glad to see you’re suffering.
Screw u rice burner
Sportsters aren't meant to ride 2 up on they even tell you that when you look at them. Thats their entry level, most stripped down bike. Whoever made this video is a dumbass he obviously didn't shop around. My wife got a brand new one for 9k tax title out the door and she loves it. Its the 3rd in our collection.
@@rjalexander4765 Um, how you gonna 'catch' that rice burner? Or me on my flying spaghetti monster?
The fastest Harley I've seen was a hood ornament on a Peterbilt.
As a long time Harley rider, I have to say this video is spot on with all those points. It is my opinion that the Livewire is a turd. A really expensive turd. I agree with another poster here that small tech upgrades to the existing high quality classic bikes is the best move. I’m on my 5th Harley. It’s always been the same with every purchase - air cleaner $100, slip on pipes $300, tuner or rejetting the carb $300, add a sissy bar $300. The list goes on. They need to build on what is correct about the brand and add the goodies from the factory. PS- I almost bought a new Triumph.
Thanks for the comment. The LiveWire is not far off the price of a Tesla Model 3. Let that one sink in...
California is the driver for Electric vehicles in the US. Harley has to develop a bike to be sold in a all EV market.
re: goodies- any bike you buy whether it's a HD or sport or adv bike all need add ons or "your personal touch" to make it your own
or, you could leave it stock? You don't have to buy Harley branded upgrades, and the upgrades you are doing is the same with every bike and every car. No one is forcing you to put a Roush exhaust on your Mustang.
@@Hathorr1067 I plan on leaving my bike stock. It performs well enough for my needs. If these bikes came stock with Stage 4, they'd be more expensive and these people would still want more.
I have always loved Harleys.always wanted one.i could never afford one.now that I’m older (57)and can afford one I have found that over the years of riding I have done ,a lot of the people that ride Harleys have changed my mind about owning one.The whole Harley or nothing attitude gets old.if you don’t ride a Harley your not really a biker.i also know there are a lot of Harley riders that are down to earth people who don’t see you for the bike you ride but just see you as a fellow biker.unfortunately the bad always ruin it for the good.to much attitude.i don’t want people to look at me and think I’m just another weekend warrior who thinks he is a badass.the guys that won’t wave back when you throw up a hand.to cool to wave.these same guys who are Harley or nothing fans ride their American bike all day and then go home and watch their Japanese or Korean tv.i would have to guess that I’m not the only one who feels this way.over priced and not as reliable.they are cool to look at.
They drive toyota trucks also.
I was in a similar situation. Bought my first bike last year at age 55. I wanted to get a Harley (Sportster), but just couldn't afford it. And honestly, a lot of the Harley riders in my area turned me off of wanting an HD. It seems to be more about an attitude than the joy of riding. I bought a Moto Guzzi instead. Love the bike! And it has more features and more power for a lot less money.
Oh please, be your own man. Ride for the joy. People don’t wave, F’em, and ride on. I’ve been riding Harleys since my 20s and just bought a new ultra limited. I love it and the people on bikes have changed, as does life. You do you. I still love Harley’s over any other bikes and I’ve looked at Indians and they cost just as much.
If you're not riding a Harley, you'll find yourself trying to come up with a good hummina hummina story why your cheap bike is better or "just as good as" the Harley. Daily life slowly becomes a hummina hummina story that can only ever be cured by buying the Harley.
@@Colt-tf6xf coming up with a good REASON why my cheap bike is better, is very very easy.
Most bikers want reliability. Then there's handling, power and the lack of vibration that would make a tractor driver wince. HD tries to sell yesterday's tech at tomorrow's prices. No chance.
Sean... RIDE one.
@@MikeTomillo I have. More than one, actually. Complete and utter shite.
Wrong
@@gdewar1210 Please explain. Engine capacity the size of a battleship. Power output the size of a Moulinex mixer.
Do you get the plough attachment as standard
I recently visited my local Harley-Davidson dealer in California to check out a new Road Glide. I was shocked when I saw the sticker price of $30,000. This did not include sale tax, registration, doc fees, and other dealership expenses. Those combined expenses brought the price of the bike to $35,500. I turned around and walked out.
This hit the nail on the head, it's also why I bought a Goldwing instead of a Roadglide!
Much better bike Honda make awesome bullet proof machines
Its all what you want to ride. If you like your 2000lbs Goldwing that you can't even tell if its running or not because its so quiet then good for you. Most guys at a certain age switch to goldwings. specially now that they just came out with an automatic trans. I enjoy the vibration and the sound myself.
Ever since Ronald Reagan bailed them out the acted like they could do no wrong. Now it has caught up.
Jennie L Rogers yeah, and they have the audacity to point the finger at millennials.
Someone watched the F9 video.
u yep prob. a gold wing rider-toyota ryder!!
I have a MT 07. I’m too young for a cruiser.
I wish Hinckley was a better marksman.
Good analogy, I too was a dedicated HD client since i bought my first Harley in 1977 up until my last new purchase in 2012 of a new CVO Ultra Classic.Over the years I know I was gouged at HD dealers for their products, parts and up grades but paid the price to ride their genuine product. Now i'm retired and looking for a new lighter weight touring bike and I want, value, performance and I don't care about sporting a brand too be cool. I'm seriously looking at the Indian Challenger over the HD Road Glide.
Have you considered a triumph rocket 3 GT. The honda goldwing , or even yamaha star venture .If your not particularly brand specific. I would consider all avalable bikes .
@@wickedleeloopy2115 The problem with the Rocket is it's incredibly heavy, and it's not got the lowest centre of gravity either so you really feel that weight...One of the Triumph Bonneville range will do the same job at a fraction of the weight.
Whilst BMW's also weight a ton, the Boxer engine, and their habit for putting the fuel tank under the seat give their bikes such a low centre of gravity you'd swear you were riding a bike half the size just from the feel of it...however BMW are just as expensive and branded as Harley are...I'm glad you mentioned the Yamaha Star though...i love those bikes, i always wanted a 650 Dragstar when i was a kid. (ended up with a virago lol)
One of the biggest problems is these giant palaces they've built. How can they lower prices with that kind of overhead. I said back in the day that they were painting themselves into a corner financially and that the next recession would play hell with them.
Love Harley and i own one. But what i hate about harley are price , parts , accessories and how dealerships control their prices
I agree. So I added a Ducati to my garage to find out what real financial punishment is!
AboMeshari exactly. I’ll never get rid of my Harleys but I will never buy another. Unless it’s a frame, cuz I’m gonna change everything else anyways. Just purchased an Indian FTR and I like the fact I can keep stock for a while and enjoy. Instead of upgrading every part right away
@@GHOZT831 I love Harleys, but I always say strip everything off a harley frame , upgrade it, and you'll have the bike harley should have given you for the $ you have paid them.
brianq103 I have had 3 Ducatis, the first 2 new , 400.000 miles on the two , they owed me nothing !! Latest one is a 2011 multistrada , I have put 43.000 miles on it since October 2017, I'm 67 and this will be my last bike !! BTW. I got the multi for six grand 😎😎😎😎😄😄😄🍺🍺🍺🍺
@@randallcochran9070 haha funny you say that cause that's what Indian is doing. I always say when someone says they're copying HD yea they build a better HD
Some years ago, I also had a test ride on an 883. I found the airbox pushed my knee out, making it awkward to access the brake pedal (completely unacceptable). The front brake was wooden. The cornering was mediocre. Cruising speed was about 65mph before it started getting vibey, which was the same as the MZ 250 that I was trading in. The fuel tank was pitifully small. In the end I bought a Moto Guzzi Breva 750. It was lighter, faster on top speed, quicker on acceleration, cornered better, braked better, had better fuel consumption and was cheaper than the Harley. Why would I buy a Harley?
And Guzzi’s are cool and have heritage galore! Good call on the Guzzi
@@warrenstemphly5756 i love sportster but those guzzi stone and bobber make me all kind of winks and im like 'oh dear is she doing that for me?' lol
Great video, I predicted this about 10 years ago and even got into a very heated argument with an avid HD rider/owner friend. I bought a nicely equipped Triumph Thunderbird brand new in 2010 for $12,500 when the comparable HD bike was a stripped out no frills Dyna for $15,900... I have ridden it all over the U.S., even up Pike's Peak passing a HD about 3/4 up the mountain as it wheezed on the thin air... 70,000 plus miles later, no issues except some rear bearings that got tired of going round and round. $3,500 cheaper and no breakdowns, hmmm... Funny thing is, the friend is not a friend anymore and his HD suffered a catastrophic engine failure that caused the engine to eat itself, just like the Motor Company is doing now, eating itself.
Hey a non writer here I knew that they made t-shirts and accessories had no idea they actually made motorcycles
They don't.
HD = High Dollar.
i concur
HD stands Huge Disappointment!!
I like that!
@@alxemend7655 Harley riders don't! 😂
There's also another great HD in trouble video 'How Harley-Davidson Killed Itself' (posted by: FortNine).
If you didn’t have to give up a left but to get one they wouldn’t be hurting nobody wants to pay so Much for a bike
Arrogance and greed.
When I saw the new models they came out with, I knew it was over for them. They obviously missed the point when they unveiled a 30,000$ electric bike and thought it was going to get young people riding. If young people had 30 grand, we'd put a down payment on a house, or buy an actual Tesla for the same price. The marketing people at HD just don't live in the real world. It's great to maximize profit per unit, but if you are selling hardly any units, it's not worth it. If they had made the Street models actually affordable, that could have saved them. But the 500s are kind of junk bikes, with the cheapest looking tach in the world and they cost 7+k out the door. There are so many options for that price, why would anyone buy an anemic, built on a budget, fake Harley? They really have no idea what they are doing. Should have come out with something around 5k and people would have bought them up like hotcakes. Those are the bikes that are really selling. I see so many Ninja 300s and R3s and midsize adv bike nowadays, and it's because it's great value for money. And a ninja 300 probably outperforms a 11,000$ 883.... Harley needs to add value to their bikes if they want to keep selling for the prices they are.
My local Harley Dealer shop charges $85 per 1/2 of work if you want them to repair your bike. No wonder they are going down hill.
That adventure touring thing is absolutely hideous.
MAC What? You don’t like that heavy looking breadbasket out front?
Yeah it is, they all are
What's a good looking adventure bike? I'll wait
Yeah, it looks like a soviet tractor.
It's a tough enough market without the handicap of uglyness.
I've bought Kawasaki over Harley twice now, i grew up around Harley's and that's why I don't ride them
South Park made me look at them differently lol.
That episode put so many people off ever buying a Harley.
That episode is closer to the truth than most believe!
I went into the dealership in Greeley Colorado back in April. They are an all brand dealership with Harley on one side and metrics on the other. I looked around at the Harleys and meandered over to where the metric bikes should be. The salesman approached me of course and asked me if he could help. So I asked him where the metric cruisers would be. He said over here we keep a couple of them for people that come in and don't want to spend "Harley money". What a crock of shit but that is their new sales pitch!
In high school in late 60's. Saw the same happen to the British bikes when the Japanese bikes came on the market. A few short years and Norton, BSA and Triumph were sucking the hind tit. Bye Harley.
You snooze, you lose.
Stephan McCann Good point. Back in the day, Norton and Triumph were the beauties of the road, but with outdated technology and poor workmanship. I bought a BMW in 1971 and kept it for fifty years in excellent shape and at very little maintenance cost. I doubt if there are any Nortons or Triumphs from that era standing, other than restored relics.
I laid my old soft tail over in south Phoenix in January. I broke the clutch lever. We got it loaded on a friends trailer and hauled it home. The next day, we towed it over to the closest HD dealer. The service manager comes out and tells me the bike is too old (1989 FXST) and that they no longer work on them. So I go to a custom shop. He puts on a clutch lever that he found in a old parts bin and charges me $20. I looked at it as being a blessing. If the HD shop would have done it, it probably would have cost me $200!
Blah, Blah Blah... “I REALLY WANT A HARLEY BUT... THEY SUCK AND ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE!” Gee, we’ve only heard that 3 billion times.
If you cannot afford something, move on to what you can afford and please quit your bitchin’. Yes, it’s that simple. Buy the MT! If you’re looking for a rocket, buy a rocket. My guess is that you’ll still secretly or not so secretly STILL WANT A HARLEY. I happen to love my Street Glide, but I also really like my MT-10.
@@DCdrumrdad1 you can complain about things being too fucking expensive, especially service.
I took the wheel from my Buell M2 Cyclone along with a tire to my HD dealer and asked for a tire mount and balance. The Service Advisor said that he would have to charge me one hour shop time which was $120. I went down the street to the Kawasaki shop. They carried the wheel for me, mounted and balanced it while i waited, acted like they wanted my business and put $45 dollars in their till. Harley service is another reason why they are failing. If I am buying a new bike do I want to have to go to a dealer that sees me as noting more than a mark to be fleeced? "You wanna stage four kit with that?"
I laid my bike down and bent the bars and knocked the tree out of alignment..... Harley service marked every scratch and dent (that wasn't from dumping the bike) and told me it would cost 7 grand to fix...... Needless to say I took my bike home and me and a friend fixed ot all ourselves after I found the parts I wanted
@@DCdrumrdad1 and by not complaining is exactly how things never get done. If people continue to keep their mouth shut, Harley will go under. I've been riding bikes on dirt and street since 1986, I've met and talked to many people who wanted to buy a brand new Harley, but didn't want to pay the price. And I've talked to and have met guys who did pay their prices and some of them bitched about how high their payments were, but kept on riding because they couldn't face the fact they got ripped off. If people don't step up and tell Harley to lower their prices, they never will. The number one reason why a lot of people won't buy one, is the price. Why is it so wrong for people to just say...hey, Harley, how about lowering the price a little? The fact is...a new Harley is not worth what the price tag says. That's a fact. Why are people paying Ferrari money for a Mustang? There's nothing wrong with people asking them to lower the price. I guarantee you if they lowered the price, you'd see them doing better. Using the phrase...."if you can't afford one, then buy something else". That's a terrible, terrible business model. Because in reality...people WILL buy something else. But like I said, there's nothing about a Harley that warrants the price tag..nothing. They literally are not doing or offering anything that you can't get from another brand, nothing. They can't even be bothered to put their fricken name on their bikes anymore, it's literally just the outer design of the logo without the Harley Davidson words. That's embarrassing. But then you have people who say..well, just buy a used one if you can't afford a new one. What if someone doesn't want a used bike? A used bike can have more problems than a used condom. Who wants to settle on a used bike because they can't afford a new one? Point is, the whole..just don't buy it if you don't like the price is exactly how a brand closes it's doors. A general motorcycle, not a special edition, one off..but a general everyday motorcycle, should be affordable to just about anyone. This is a motorcycle, not a private jet, not a 1000 foot yacht. It's a motor and two wheels...a simple machine. It should be able to be bought by 80% of the people
Like I really want to look like a Wild Hog dork riding around a Harley. Pass.
I'd get more 'satisfaction' with a playing card tat-tat-tating in the spokes of my mountain bike, and, I'm not doing that either! ... SV 1000s, Buell 1125r or cr, Ducati Streetfighter 1098, Aprilia Tuono, .... Harley? ... Hardly!
I've been riding for many years and riding Harleys since 1999, and what you are saying is right on. They are so focused on their marketing strategy and profit making that they have forgotten about their customers. Selling t-shirts for $35.00 and finding new ways of making it more expensive to ride a Harley (radiator bikes that need even more maintenance...$700 headlights....$500 oil changes, etc) has taken it's toll on them and, I think, will be their undoing. All that, coupled with their management's lack of listening to their customers will eventually run more and more of their riders off.
I worked for a dealer almost twenty years and saw changes in product , customers and dealer attitude. I'm retired now and Harley Davidson has priced itself out of my budget, they raised the cost of product and deleted standard equipment, bag rails, bumpers, passing lamps, tour boxes and others. Remove parts and charge more for the bike That's not very good business. I won't go into a dealership and pay 100.00 for a sweatshirt made in Malaysia. I don't like paying for parts made In China. How many damn Softail models do you need
Roger Wilson my local dealership, which I’ve worked for also, disgust me so much I wouldn’t spend a dime there even for a t-shirt.
Roger Wilson ; Damn, how old are you? Deleted standard equipment? Bag rails, bumpers? what the hell is a bumper? Passing lamps, touring boxes and "others". Like tires?
I've worked at two dealerships and I can relate to what your saying. I was told by the parts manager at the last dealership that the reason for so many new models was to make it harder for people to buy aftermarket parts. Harley wants to control everything you buy and do to your bike. It's not like the old days when you could buy a Harley and customize it with all aftermarket parts. They get you with a marked up price on the bike and overpriced "genuine" HD parts.
@@cobracharmer6178 Hey dude I am old , just turned 70 but I'm still kicking and I still love my motorcycles. FYI all the equipment I mentioned was available as standard equipment until about 7 or eight years ago. , guess you haven't been around long enough, by the way the tired were square
@@rogerwilson653 ; I'm 62. Rode Honda trail bikes when I was a kid. My dad gave me his 1972 Honda 350 in 75. Graduated from high school in 76. That summer, my uncle let me take his 76 Sportster out for a spin. Been hooked ever since. Nothing like it. The Japanese have done everything to make cheap copies of Harley Davidson's.They closed down Triumph. I get tire of people talking sh!t about Harley Davidson. " H.D.'s are too big and heavy". "They're too expensive". "They're too loud". "They're out dated". whine whine whine! I've been hearing that same sh!t for decades. It's a free country. Buy a Vespa, a Moped or a freaking Kymco 150cc scooter! Those scooters are in the $3,000-$4,000 range. You'd think that would satisfy the masses of the dumb dumbs. 1st H.D I owned, 78 Super glide. 2nd, 87 Low Rider Custom (Willy G.) 3rd, 94 Dyna Wide Glide. 4th, 08 Dyna Wide Glide anniversary. Today, I own a 2012 Dyna Wide Glide. All these bikes except the 78 Super Glide, were new. Not 1 problem, no recalls except the 2008. They had to reseal the gas cap. I also owned o 1950 flathead and a 77 Triumph Bonney. I still have no idea what you're talking about standard equipment.
Some of Harleys bikes cost over $50 000 in Europe. Just insane. 😳
Fun fact, HD's shareholders also lobbied the Fed to force an MSF course for all licensing. Also, HD provides that class for around 200 bucks. That is how bad the sales have gotten.
They have killed the used bike market. Sign paperwork for new bike, loose 25% before it leaves the door. They need to cut production by 75% to try and get the "waiting list for a new bike", if thats even possible.
Well see if they actually legitimately cut the prices. They need to cut them all by 4 or 5k $ and offer more features standard.
Gut-Z Guy yea but honda and yamaha should
Do that too! Their stuff is
Not
Cheap either and u dont have the heritage,sound or soul
Of a harley.
4 or 5 k isn't exactly reasonable. Harley's bikes are actually selling for the same price as others categorically. The issue is that everyone seems to want to compare Harleys outside of their category.
Touring/Bagger:
Honda Gold Wing: $23,800 to $27,500
Yamaha Eluder and Venture: $22,499 to $26,999
Indian Challenger/Chieftain: $21,999 to $27,999, Roadmaster $28,999 to $29,999
Harley Street Glide/Road Glide/Ultra Limited (excluding CVO): $21,699 to $28,699
Kawasaki Vaquero and Voyager: $16,799 to $17,499
Suzuki: No bagger models
So for a touring bike, Harley is almost the cheapest to get into, for a starting price, being beat only by Kawasaki. The price RANGE is also second highest though, as they go from Second cheapest, up to second most expensive when adding a tour-pack.
Large cruiser (1400cc and up)
Indian: Chief Dark Horse $18,499
Yamaha: Vmax $17,999
Harley Soft Tail line (this needs to be condensed. It's stupid to have a new model name every time you change a stupid fender): $13,599 to $20,999
Suzuki M109R, C90 and M90: $11,349 (1462cc) to $15,199 (1783cc)
Honda: No large cruisers anymore.
Kawasaki: No large cruisers.
This time the only brand keeping Harley from being the cheapest to get into is Suzuki. Granted, due to a large model line, there is a diverse range of prices in Harley in this category, but it still can be done for less than the starting cost of an Indian or a Yamaha in this category.
Middleweight Cruiser (800 to 1400cc)
Honda Fury $10,599
Indian Scout $8999 to $11,999
Harley sportster $8999 to $11,499
Suzuki C50 (Excluding the C50T cause I'll talk about that in a moment.) $8299
Kawasaki Vulcan (Excluding LT) $7999 to $8499
Yamaha Bolt $7999 to $8399
Prices in this category are quite close. Harley does offer the most expensive option, but this category's highest point of entry is actually Honda.
Light Touring (800 to 1400cc, light for touring, middleweight for cruisers)
Suzuki C50T $9599
Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT $8999
Indian: No entry
Honda: No entry
Harley Davidson: NO ENTRY!
And THIS, right here is why Suzuki and Kawasaki punch so high above their weight. Until recently, Honda had the ctx1300 and Stateline in this category, which Harley has NEVER competed in. The cruising range alone of the 900LT makes the Sportster seem like a smaller bike than it is. This, imho, is where Harley needs to strike. They already have a bike in this size bracket. Now, fit a large tank, windscreen, footboards, and bags for under the cost of a Roadster, and I think there's a winner.
Small Cruiser (600 to 800cc)
Honda Shadow $7699 to $7899
Harley Street 750 and Street Rod $7599 to $8699
Kawasaki Vulcan S $7099
Suzuki S40 $5799
Indian No Entry
Yamaha makes bikes in this size, but not in a cruiser style.
Once again, Harley is actually not the most expensive. That honor goes to Honda.
Smaller than that, I dont' need to give prices. Harley simply doesn't compete in the beginner category, which is cruisers under 600cc. This would be Rebels, Monkeys, Groms, Vstar250, VanVan, TU250 etc. Now, people tend to fall in love with the brand they learn on. Just saying, this is a big problem for Harley that they don't seem to want to fix.
Now, I personally have no problem going from my ACE (Heavy old Honda) to a Harley. However, my friends on smaller bikes, (Older 500 to 700cc machines, for example) consider the sportster heavy.
Harley's real issue is that the larger beginner bikes (500cc) tend to punch above thier weight, as do light touring bikes (Touring bikes under 1400cc). These are both categories that Harley's absense in mean they aren't making a show of value, even if it's there.
@@jimbartosevich498 that's the best analysis I've seen on the topic. I see what you are saying, and you have valid points. I can only add that it's not just the entry price, but what we spend after buying a bike. My 2008 Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad 1600 had accessories like a passenger backrest with luggage rack, heel shifter, passenger footboards, racks on top of the saddlebags, and a sexy exhaust note, and I am paying a lot of money a piece at a time to outfit my 2016 Indian Chieftain with what my Kawasaki came with stock.
Harley may have a comparable or low entry price in a category, but after you pay the "Harley tax" of putting a new seat and handlebars on there that are actually comfortable, along with an exhaust so it sounds and feels like a Harley should, that's a serious addition to the listed price in your comparison. How much money are customers paying after the purchase price of the bike in order to be happy customers? I think this infamous "Harley tax" is where Harley needs to improve.
@@thebob6385 the nomad is a beautiful machine. If bikes like it were still available new I'd have no defense for Harley. When nomads, yamaha Raiders, Honda vtx1800s were around, buying a Harley seemed like a terrible idea.
The issue is that while the metric brands are downsizing their bikes, their prices I cruisers are find the opposite. Harley prices have gone up in the last fifteen years, but not by as much as the other brands.
As for the Harley tax, that's pretty much self inflicted. Harley builds in customizability, but if you want to ride it stock you can. Kawasaki really does include a lot for the price though. I have a lot of respect for them.
Indian.... The challenger killed the brand for me. It's too blatantly "let's make one cheap one just to list it on the website when in reality it costs five grand more." It feels like price gouging.
Got my 2016 F6B brand new in 2019 . 118HP, 123FTLb of torque, cruise control, am/fm stereo with weather band. For $14,298
What I've read about how others have been treated, same here.
HD is in harm's way of their own hands.
"What goes around, comes around!"
Their dealership's will suffer from their own hands also.
Their attitude will change and it's to late for them to treat us like they should have in the 1st place.
I haven't been back to any HD dealership's in 1.5+ years. I get their text and emails, their tone has changed, just to late.
I still have mine and no plans to sell it.
Ride safe and stay safe.
Harley Davidson are boxed in by their V twin engines , They are so large and long you need a long brick shaped frame to put them in . They should make a cross plane parallel twin and stick that in a decent enduro type mid weight true ADV bike . The Pan America looks like a 6 burner BBQ with LED side burner .
it's not the V-twin engine design in and of itself that's large...the Engines in many Harley bikes are over 1500CC, which a larger displacement than most small cars, (that come in at about 1400cc) which is why they need the brick outhouse shaped frames.
As the narrator says, a 900cc Engine would be quite tidy and compact by comparison...Just look at Ducati, those bikes all use V-Twin engines, as does Suzuki's SV650, and The Honda VFR uses a V4 engine, that's 2 V-twins bolted together, and it's no where near the length or cumbersomeness of a Harley.
The Harley engine is what makes it a Harley.
It is a POS compared to a modern design, but that is Harley in a nutshell.
Round about 1997-98 I was doing some work for Harley as a contractor and got to know quite a few of their people. I remember recommending to one of their Product Engineers one time that they should look at introducing a smaller, lower cost (still a v-twin powered) bike for entry level riders and folks that didn't have the $$$ means to buy all of their current products. I envisioned something to compete with the Honda Rebel, Yamaha Route 66 and the Ridley in those days. His comment back to me was "Do you really think some hairy, sweaty, tattooed goon would want to ride a minibike like that?!?"....Boy was that a dumb reply in hindsight... I still remember his name and I may even have the email somewhere...
I have been riding off and on for the last 9 years. I have never owned a Harley and never plan to. It seems like everything Harley does is usually done better and cheaper, in price not quality, than most of the other competitors. But the biggest reason I was turned off of Harleys was the Harley purest crowd. I have been threatened and insulted by harley purests for even admitting that I road other brands. Leaves a bad taste so to speak
I despise Harley purists. The arrogance is amazing.
Harley Davidson is more interested in selling key chains and bumper stickers than motorcycles.
The experience you had with the dealer while looking at a Sportster is almost identical to my experience in the late 90s. At the time the MSRP on a 883 was $5900. The dealer wanted $8500 and he could have one in a month. Went to the Honda dealership that same week and bought a 750 ACE. Started to do longer trips and about a year later bought a Valkyrie. Still have the Valkyrie. Even after 20 years I still have a bad impression of HD. HD is an American company and I hope they get their s**t together, but if I ever buy another bike, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay Goldwing prices for an Electroglide, and to a salesman who's last job was probably as a hairdresser. Anyway you get my idea of what I think about them.
I grew up on dirt bikes and hill climbing. When I got my first street bike a Honda Shadow an old College buddy wanted to go for a cruise. He had a full-dresser with flags and fringes. In 200 miles he broke down three times. I asked him why do you own that thing? He replied, "the mystique."
When everyone in high school had to have a camaro, I put together an old Cadillac. Now all the cool kids HAVE to have a harley....I just cant do it. I dont like following trends, or herds. Gotta be different to be happy.
Exactly why I bought a Moto Guzzi. I had to be different! And I was an HD mechanic for 8 years! Lol!
When I started riding Harley’s AMF owned them . So it was ya trend then , everyone was riding Honda’s and Kawasaki’s. I had a 1975 cochleae 1000 sportster kick start !
Moto Guzzi ? ha ha ha ! Ugliest motorcycle ever!
your behavior is still predictable from your contrarian reaction to trends. What about getting the things you want regardless if its trending or not. You can get something that is trendy not because of the trend, but because you think it's a good purchase. Being contrarian still puts you in the same predictable box. Better to step out of the box and get what YOU really want.
Get a Triumph Thunderbird you'll love it.
I went into a local Harley event, got a quote on a new fat boy, after i laughed at the ridiculous apr and a $7,000 warranty I went and bought a Honda Monkey!
Hey those monkeys are tough, there was a YT video of a couple of guys who rode them all the way down Baja.
I got the monkey too and love it, because it's just fun!
How is the Honda monkey a legitimate replacement for a fat boy? You've basically said the Cadillac Escalade is too expensive, so I bought a Kia soul..
Dexter Schray sorry PJ Money bags 💰 a lot of us common folk can’t pay $20k for a motorcycle we will ride 3-4 months out of the year due to weather.
@@dexter131 maybe he decided he'd rather just put around on a Honda rather than break the bank for a big bike. It's a toy, its not the same as a car.
Unless Harley's core customers discover the Fountain of Youth, H-D will likely exist in the future only as a low-volume specialty brand--much like Christ Craft did in the marine industry.
You hit the nail on the head! They are selling bikes with 20 year old technology for way more than it’s worth