A trip through London to see the places associated with Henry VIII’s chief minister - Thomas Cromwell. Was he an heroic figure or a true villain? #history #tudors #thomascromwell
Ah yes. Cromwell. The man behind Henry 8 when Wolsey fell. I think it's dangerous to view history with modern context. He appears absolutely wild at times but that's kinda how court life went. Survival of the fittest if you will. I think it's important to remember Henry made his own choices at the end of the day. I've just found your channel. Brilliant!
Along with others I would agree that you should not judge individuals of the past by modern standards. One of the first facets I was taught embarking on my BA History with OU was do not judge the past by your own values. I have subscribed and look forward to see many more vids. Best Wishes.
Cromwell was both a villain and a hero. A brave soldier, a great family man, smart and extraordinarily talented. But the power he gained corrupted him, he flew too high, the sun scorched his wings and he fell from a great height and crashed
@@MrCHistorywalks As I deepen my knowledge on the subject, I understand that Henry VIII's court was rotten. The few great people it had such as Moore Fisher Wolsey and eventually also Cromwell were captured by greedy incompetent nobles with distinct interests that they wanted to do for themselves and their household. Henry's illness and suspicion also contributed to this atmosphere of chaos, an atmosphere of whistleblowers, religious persecution, etc. The courtiers hated Cromwell just like Wolsey and envied them because they came from a low class and always tried to fail them and all thet The good of the country was not in front of their eyes at all.
@@noyka100 100% - I wonder if any modern comparisons could be made especially on the weekend of the Russian “election”. I feel very sorry for Thomas More. A deeply principled person. In fact I have a deleted scene on Thomas More which I might load up as a short.
To Catholics, Cromwell is a villian. You didn't mention that him and his cronies went out deliberately looking for wrong doing in the monasteries and convents of England. Of course, there would have been some sinful monks, but a lot of it was fabricated. Some abbots surrendered easily and some didn't. You didn't mention that the whole social network was pulled to pieces, leaving the poor, sick, disabled and elderly with no-one to turn to when times got bad. This was to lead to the workhouse system which was a lot less sympathetic than the monasteries. You didn't mention that in order to find 'proof ' of Anne Boleyn's so-called infidelity, he had people tortured. Hilary Mantel's book and especially Mark Rylance's performance in the TV series of Wolf Hall have tended to whitewash Cromwell's reputation. I believe that possibly when a very young man in Europe, he may have been abused at a monastery which led to his hatred of monks. This has led to the suffering and deaths of thousands of innocent people from Sir Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher to ordinary monks, nuns, priests and people. This man, aided by a tyrannical King, is the English equivalent of Hitler.
Well yes indeed. Henry certainly was unhinged in my opinion. And yes Thomas was ruthless in his tactics when dissolving the monasteries - a nasty piece of work!
Let's not leave out why Cromwell did these things. He certainly didn't act alone, either. Henry would kill you..not just kill you have you dragged or whatever "at the kynges pleasure". Can you say you'd do things differently? I certainly can't. I'm no Cromwell revisionist but let's not look with a modern lens
Thomas More was a religious bigot, happy to burn heretics at the stake - which he did. And torture them, which he did at his London home. He then wanted to retire to a domestic paradise in Chelsea when things got hot for him, making him a hypocrite. No one’s reputation has been more effectively laundered than his. (Utopia is brilliant.)
Yep - got that wrong. Wolsey died in obscurity whilst on the run. I would say though that he was a broken man and despondent about being shunned by his master. Agree not the same as murder!
Cromwell hated Ann Boleyn and her family. He wanted to erase them and their power. He enabled a mad King to easily kill off wives. You either love or hate him. I side with the true love of Henry. After his accident, he was never the same. I was a head Injury Nurse and watched families try to adapt to loved one's personality changes after a head injury. Henry fit the diagnosis.
Henry didn't divorce Katherine, just annulled the marriage because of her previous match with his brother. The income & value of the monasteries was the motive for dissolution. The religious monks etc were seen as foreign agents, also monies went to Rome from Britain the Henry could take. The Protestant movement was a way to legitimise this. The religious reforms were thought up to bring this about. It was not the first time that English Kings had asserted independent control of the Church in England. John had claimed it, so did his father Henry 2nd, & Henry 5th, as part of his claim to France. Though the Popes insisted on supremacy over the Church in the west this was not always accepted by secular rulers, & of course the orthodox east never did accept it.
Great video verry interesting but one point raised an eyebrow when you said Henry still murdered Wolsey? Everything I've read says he died on the road from York to probably be judicialy murdered.
Yes this was a bit a slip from me. He died in Leicester didn’t he? I sort of meant that Henners hounded him out of office and very much fell out of the kings favour. Perhaps I need to do a video on Wolsey!
@@MrCHistorywalks Don't worry made me chuckle the though of Henry sneaking in with a pillow to snuff out his former favourite perhaps disguised as Robin Hood just to throw anyone that saw him off.
I wonder how Cromwell really felt about his role in the sacking of all those monasteries and churches, considering how God fearing people were back then. I suppose there was a good chance that he was a highly intelligent psychopath and had no conscience at all.
Naive servant. He did Henry's bidding, until he was killed himself. He thought each country would have their own church like the east. That impoverished the poor of England.
The evidence that Thomas Cromwell was responsible for changing England from Catholic to Protestant is based on very little. The idea that Henry was worried about his marriages and had little to do with religious policy is funny. Virtually the whole basis for this idea is the notion that Thomas Cromwell was directing policy which is simply an assumption. The idea that Henry VIII of all people was lead around by the nose in this is silly, especially given all the evidence we have for Henry's control of English politics / policy to say nothing of his interest in theology. So the notion that England becoming Protestant was Thomas Cromwell's policy and not the King's is funny. The elevation of Thomas Cromwell is basically based on the supposition that Henry was always a tool of factions. This is really funny. Henry could not be the true author of policy it had too be someone else because Henry was (But in the excuse here; stereotypes of Henry VIII.). May I recommend G. W. Bernard The King's Reformation, Yale University Press, 2005.
Fabulous! There is no doubt who in charge. I do think Crommers did get a little ahead of himself though, hubris and all that. Indeed Henners essentially has him executed because he felt he went above his station. But yes, you are ultimately right. That image of Henry beating Crommers and round the head at a public meeting clearly demonstrates who is in charge!
as for henry 8th , he was a complicated king.. his personal view on religion was a *english catholic*....... the high church of bishops, mass etc... the reformation across northern europe, lutheran one under king eric 3 of denmark... the protestants in netherlands, knox, calvin, zwingli etc ,,,troubled henry 8th.. he simply was no fan of the protestant reformation, of the low church, or hertics like luther... *defender of the faith* and being excomunicated, also keeping many sacrements,,, abolishment of religious buildings and the incentive of cash & division of lands... blame the clergy for corruption etc, but having plenty of it at the tudor court... later suggesting cromwell was trying to debase the kings catholic faith or ruin the king, the earlier henry II and the swearing of loyalty to the english crown, was required from the clergy.. but the archbishop and pope ...could be divided over loyalty for or against the king... or for and against the person of the pope & holy roman emperor...
thomas cromwell was of low birth, elevated to chief minister at court of henry 8th... the downfall of his master cardinal wolsley..., the turblent king... who liked to blame foreign & domestic affairs on his ministers, especially the failures... but acted more like a tyrant,, often ignoring parliment & executing his own relatives... the buggery act under cromwell,. was one of his worst legacies..., this had a impact many centuries later... certainly he can not be blamed for the excesses at the tudor court, his domestic policy..., often under instruction from or on the demand of the king... he was no machevilli... something in between a villain & a common low born hero... wolf hall, will return... queen catherine of aragon banishment from court... queen ann boleyn dramatic rise & downfall...
Totally forgot about the buggery act. That’s a good piece of evidence to suggest he was a villain. I’m actually planning an LGBTQ+ history video for Pride Month and might incorporate that. Thanks!
Ah yes. Cromwell. The man behind Henry 8 when Wolsey fell.
I think it's dangerous to view history with modern context. He appears absolutely wild at times but that's kinda how court life went. Survival of the fittest if you will. I think it's important to remember Henry made his own choices at the end of the day.
I've just found your channel. Brilliant!
Thank you. Yes - please explore. Firmly agree with you on not judging historical figures with a modern lens!
Along with others I would agree that you should not judge individuals of the past by modern standards. One of the first facets I was taught embarking on my BA History with OU was do not judge the past by your own values. I have subscribed and look forward to see many more vids. Best Wishes.
Marvellous many thanks. Yes lots coming up. Mary Wollstonecraft yesterday. Looking at something WW2-ish next week hopefully
Cromwell was both a villain and a hero. A brave soldier, a great family man, smart and extraordinarily talented. But the power he gained corrupted him, he flew too high, the sun scorched his wings and he fell from a great height and crashed
A very good way of putting it. I totally agree. I think it would have been very difficult dealing with such a capricious king.
@@MrCHistorywalks As I deepen my knowledge on the subject, I understand that Henry VIII's court was rotten. The few great people it had such as Moore Fisher Wolsey and eventually also Cromwell were captured by greedy incompetent nobles with distinct interests that they wanted to do for themselves and their household. Henry's illness and suspicion also contributed to this atmosphere of chaos, an atmosphere of whistleblowers, religious persecution, etc. The courtiers hated Cromwell just like Wolsey and envied them because they came from a low class and always tried to fail them and all thet The good of the country was not in front of their eyes at all.
@@noyka100 100% - I wonder if any modern comparisons could be made especially on the weekend of the Russian “election”. I feel very sorry for Thomas More. A deeply principled person. In fact I have a deleted scene on Thomas More which I might load up as a short.
Please do it
I suppose there is some solace in legacy. More has left a positive mark while Henry is viewed as a monster...
Short and interesting history lessons. I love it! 👍
Thank you!
There is not the slightest doubt that Cromwell was a conniving, scheming, self-absorbed evil creature.
Well yes perhaps
To Catholics, Cromwell is a villian. You didn't mention that him and his cronies went out deliberately looking for wrong doing in the monasteries and convents of England. Of course, there would have been some sinful monks, but a lot of it was fabricated. Some abbots surrendered easily and some didn't. You didn't mention that the whole social network was pulled to pieces, leaving the poor, sick, disabled and elderly with no-one to turn to when times got bad. This was to lead to the workhouse system which was a lot less sympathetic than the monasteries. You didn't mention that in order to find 'proof ' of Anne Boleyn's so-called infidelity, he had people tortured. Hilary Mantel's book and especially Mark Rylance's performance in the TV series of Wolf Hall have tended to whitewash Cromwell's reputation. I believe that possibly when a very young man in Europe, he may have been abused at a monastery which led to his hatred of monks. This has led to the suffering and deaths of thousands of innocent people from Sir Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher to ordinary monks, nuns, priests and people. This man, aided by a tyrannical King, is the English equivalent of Hitler.
Well yes indeed. Henry certainly was unhinged in my opinion. And yes Thomas was ruthless in his tactics when dissolving the monasteries - a nasty piece of work!
Let's not leave out why Cromwell did these things. He certainly didn't act alone, either. Henry would kill you..not just kill you have you dragged or whatever "at the kynges pleasure". Can you say you'd do things differently? I certainly can't. I'm no Cromwell revisionist but let's not look with a modern lens
Thomas More was a religious bigot, happy to burn heretics at the stake - which he did. And torture them, which he did at his London home. He then wanted to retire to a domestic paradise in Chelsea when things got hot for him, making him a hypocrite. No one’s reputation has been more effectively laundered than his. (Utopia is brilliant.)
As if Thomas Moore wasn’t responsible for the murder of innocent people as well. He had plenty of people burned at the stake.
He cannot be such a villain if he has a tank named after him
Was the Cromwell tank named after him or Oliver Cromwell?
I think you'll find the tank is named after Oliver Cromwell, his great-nephew.
@@AnneDowson-vp8lg yes - I think so too!
Thomas Cromwell was a politician. As such, he was ruthlessly pragmatic- neither hero or villain- but at least he broke the malign influence of Rome.
Interesting angle. A cunning politician
Henry VIII did not “murder Wolsey”.
Yep - got that wrong. Wolsey died in obscurity whilst on the run. I would say though that he was a broken man and despondent about being shunned by his master. Agree not the same as murder!
Cromwell hated Ann Boleyn and her family. He wanted to erase them and their power. He enabled a mad King to easily kill off wives. You either love or hate him. I side with the true love of Henry. After his accident, he was never the same. I was a head Injury Nurse and watched families try to adapt to loved one's personality changes after a head injury. Henry fit the diagnosis.
Case solved
Very interesting
Thanks!
My dogs name is Thomas Cromwell.
That reminds me of Katherine Willoughby who named her spaniel “Gardiner” after Bishop Gardiner.
Henry didn't divorce Katherine, just annulled the marriage because of her previous match with his brother. The income & value of the monasteries was the motive for dissolution.
The religious monks etc were seen as foreign agents, also monies went to Rome from Britain the Henry could take. The Protestant movement was a way to legitimise this.
The religious reforms were thought up to bring this about. It was not the first time that English Kings had asserted independent control of the Church in England. John had claimed it, so did his father Henry 2nd, & Henry 5th, as part of his claim to France.
Though the Popes insisted on supremacy over the Church in the west this was not always accepted by secular rulers, & of course the orthodox east never did accept it.
Do you mean Catherine of Aragon or Katherine Howard? One is spelt with a K and one isn’t.
@@MrCHistorywalks Obviously Catherine of Aragon, who had been married to Arthur, Henry's brother.
Great video verry interesting but one point raised an eyebrow when you said Henry still murdered Wolsey? Everything I've read says he died on the road from York to probably be judicialy murdered.
Yes this was a bit a slip from me. He died in Leicester didn’t he? I sort of meant that Henners hounded him out of office and very much fell out of the kings favour. Perhaps I need to do a video on Wolsey!
wolsey died on the way to his executjion
@@MrCHistorywalks Don't worry made me chuckle the though of Henry sneaking in with a pillow to snuff out his former favourite perhaps disguised as Robin Hood just to throw anyone that saw him off.
@@joshuabell5580 maybe we should start that rumour
I wonder how Cromwell really felt about his role in the sacking of all those monasteries and churches, considering how God fearing people were back then. I suppose there was a good chance that he was a highly intelligent psychopath and had no conscience at all.
Yes - I can imagine he was a very pious man. I think you did whatever you could to just stay alive!
Naive servant. He did Henry's bidding, until he was killed himself. He thought each country would have their own church like the east. That impoverished the poor of England.
Very good and very astute
Hero
Fair enough
The evidence that Thomas Cromwell was responsible for changing England from Catholic to Protestant is based on very little. The idea that Henry was worried about his marriages and had little to do with religious policy is funny. Virtually the whole basis for this idea is the notion that Thomas Cromwell was directing policy which is simply an assumption. The idea that Henry VIII of all people was lead around by the nose in this is silly, especially given all the evidence we have for Henry's control of English politics / policy to say nothing of his interest in theology. So the notion that England becoming Protestant was Thomas Cromwell's policy and not the King's is funny.
The elevation of Thomas Cromwell is basically based on the supposition that Henry was always a tool of factions. This is really funny. Henry could not be the true author of policy it had too be someone else because Henry was (But in the excuse here; stereotypes of Henry VIII.).
May I recommend G. W. Bernard The King's Reformation, Yale University Press, 2005.
Fabulous! There is no doubt who in charge. I do think Crommers did get a little ahead of himself though, hubris and all that. Indeed Henners essentially has him executed because he felt he went above his station. But yes, you are ultimately right. That image of Henry beating Crommers and round the head at a public meeting clearly demonstrates who is in charge!
as for henry 8th , he was a complicated king..
his personal view on religion was
a *english catholic*....... the high church of bishops, mass etc...
the reformation across northern europe, lutheran one under king eric 3 of denmark...
the protestants in netherlands, knox, calvin, zwingli etc ,,,troubled henry 8th..
he simply was no fan of the protestant reformation, of the low church, or hertics like luther...
*defender of the faith* and being excomunicated, also keeping many sacrements,,, abolishment of religious buildings and the incentive of cash & division of lands...
blame the clergy for corruption etc, but having plenty of it at the tudor court...
later suggesting cromwell was trying to debase the kings catholic faith or ruin the king,
the earlier henry II and the swearing of loyalty to the english crown, was required from the clergy..
but the archbishop and pope ...could be divided over loyalty for or against the king... or for and against the person of the pope & holy roman emperor...
A good solid appraisal of Henry’s religious beliefs. I not that the current king uses the phrase “defender of faith” in order to be more inclusive
thomas cromwell was of low birth, elevated to chief minister at court of henry 8th...
the downfall of his master cardinal wolsley...,
the turblent king... who liked to blame foreign & domestic affairs on his ministers, especially the failures...
but acted more like a tyrant,, often ignoring parliment & executing his own relatives...
the buggery act under cromwell,. was one of his worst legacies..., this had a impact many centuries later...
certainly he can not be blamed for the excesses at the tudor court,
his domestic policy..., often under instruction from or on the demand of the king...
he was no machevilli...
something in between a villain & a common low born hero...
wolf hall, will return...
queen catherine of aragon banishment from court...
queen ann boleyn dramatic rise & downfall...
Totally forgot about the buggery act. That’s a good piece of evidence to suggest he was a villain. I’m actually planning an LGBTQ+ history video for Pride Month and might incorporate that. Thanks!