Can a PC flight sim teach you how to fly?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Welcome to part 2 of my now 2-part series on whether or not consumer flight sims can make for good training aids in real-world flight training. In my first video on the subject, I had had a total of 1 hour in real-world flight, and I used FSX as my primary point of comparison. At this point, I am an instrument-rated private pilot. (I made this video while I was waiting for my PPL checkride.) I've also primarily switched to X-Plane with Ortho4XP, and have an upgraded PC setup with dedicated controls and even VR to give sims the best chance at helping me with my training. In what ways are sims a good training aid, and in what ways are they just video games?
Apologies for the soft focus on me that starts about halfway through the video - I only noticed that after editing and exporting, and I've got to move on to other things at this point, so no time to reshoot it. Luckily you don't have to look at my mug all that often after that point in the video :)
One thing I didn't mention that I wish I had was force feedback. Back in the day, I had a Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick, and it went a long way in simulating those physical forces that you just don't get in a sim. (My stick broke, or I'd still use it.) Yes, you can feel the air pushing back on your control inputs in a small plane. No, you can't in an A320, but nobody's learning to fly in an A320. Small planes generally have their flight controls connected directly to the flight control surfaces through pushrods or cables, so you do feel a lot through the hands in a light aircraft.
Hey, so here's an updated pinned comment based on what I'm seeing from some of the more recent comments. I should clarify that by "learning to fly", yes, I mean actually obtaining your first license - not just taking a discovery flight. A discovery flight is an introductory lesson - it's a fun ride designed to figure out if flying is really for you, and I recommend one for anybody who's interested in flying. But your chances of successfully completing one are not affected one bit by whether you've simmed or not, and frankly, you won't know much more in terms of really knowing how to fly after completing one than you will beforehand. Your instructor is there to ensure you're not going to put the plane into the ground or another plane in any situation that might come up - they won't be once you've got a license. Really learning to fly is about learning to fly *safely* on your own or with passengers. As I say in the video, we all pretty much understand the very basics of how flight works, but the 35 or so lessons you'll take before your PPL checkride exist to teach you how to fly without killing yourself or anyone else, which is a real and constant danger in GA flight. (Airline flight is very safe; general aviation is no safer than driving a car, and trust me, there are idiots in the sky just like there are idiots on the road.) Your PPL checkride is a combination of ensuring you know how to fly safely, know all the pertinent regulations, know all you need to know about how weather works and how to interpret aviation weather products, and are able to complete certain maneuvers in real-world weather to very specific tolerances. Can sims help with any of that? Well... that's what this video's about.
I have flown for a couple decades and I think the SIM is a great way to stay proficient in both VFR to IFR. Sure it is not like the real thing, but considering that much of flying is in your head and being prepared---SIM flying does a very good job of keeping your mind sharp. I would say that if you flew a SIM while training to fly in the real world---you would say time and money and be a better pilot when it was all said and done. And did you mention avionics in the cockpit? There are several packages (like the Garmin 1000 or 500 or 430 or 650, etc.) where learning to train with a SIM is way cheaper and quicker than trying to learn in the real plane (not optimal when you are suppose to keep your eyes open outside the cockpit and not in it). Thanks for the video.
Modern Classic wow, you just exoressed all my thoughts, I was a simmer for the last 20 years, and now started my PPL and gone through all this lol
I did a discovery flight (my local aero club called it a trial flight) last Saturday after simming for about 4 1/2 years. Before the flight, the chief instructor gave me a briefing, and because of my experience with flight sims (not to mention reading articles and watching videos related to aviation), I knew a fair bit - he joked I should be briefing him! I still made sure to listen very carefully to everything he said. Another moment where I felt my flight simming experience helped me was during takeoff - when the instructor told me to rotate, I only applied a small amount of back pressure, because from flying light aircraft in FSX, Prepar3D and X-Plane, I knew that the plane (a Piper Tomahawk, incidentally) would lift off very easily once at the right speed. While in flight, I certainly felt the effects of turbulence etc., which is something flight sims can't imitate. But that wasn't too much of a shock for me, because the sensations are fairly similar to experiencing turbulence as a passenger on an airliner. When I had control of the aircraft, it seemed to need a lot of constant gentle correction, but I didn't find this hugely different to the way similar planes behave in flight sims. One thing I was guilty of was looking a bit much at the instruments (when I had the controls) and not enough outside. That is probably one bad habit flight simming teaches you (particularly for VFR flying, although it's maybe a good thing for IFR flight further down the line).
If I do progress further into real flying, I will definitely use my home flight simulators to practise things I learn. They can help you with certain things and teach you a lot, but as you say, they have their limitations as well. I guess as long as you utilise their strengths and be aware of their limitations, they can be a real benefit.
Vatsim ATC go through extensive training. There are too many pilots to train, so the can't. That is obvious. Although, the ATC can be trained and are. If you want to learn more, look up how to become an Air Traffic Controller on VATSIM. Many people dive into the process. As far as I see it, they do a good job. You should try out VATSIM, it is completely free so I don't see why not.
what apps did you have on your ipads?
I learned myself to fly with a PC flight simulator (FS5 and up) I used a PPL theory book and practiced all the maneuvers and theories in the simulator. In flight school I never needed an extra lesson and I passed all exams in the minimum available time. Now I fly the 737-NG for a major airline. I still use these sims to practice for my bi-annual checks. In the end, my joystick and flight sim PC came out to be my best investment ever. So thank you MS-flights and X-Plane! For making my dreams come true!
Dude, that's awesome. Good on you man!
This is insane
You have no idea how much i searched that kind of comment
That’s awesome, very motivating. Out of curiosity, what theory book did you read?
I want to take try to get my PPL next year when I’ll be 17. Right now I just have a simple setup with X-Plane 11 and a joystick, but I think it should be enough to learn the basics of flying. So, what book do you recommend to learn more about flying airplanes?
BRO PUT UP A FLIGHT SCHOOL WHERE YOU CAN TELL STUDENTS TO MASTER XPLANE OR MICROSOFT SIM AND AFTER THEY MASTER IT JUST ASK THEM TO COME OVER TO THE HANGAR AND JUST CHARGE THEM FOR THE RENTAL OF THE PLANE AND PILOT TEACHER FOR REAL LIFE TRAINING. THAT SHOULD REDUCE THE COST AND TIME FOR THE STUDENTS
I can’t agree with you more, except about the VATSIM controllers, sure there are regions like the Middle East on VATSIM who require little to no training at all to become a controller and probably even more regions, but the UK not sure if it is the same in the rest of Europe VATSIM controllers go through a really long course and it is as close to real world procedures as possible, sure you can’t replicate the real thing, but it has helped me to get rid of my push to talk fear and has made me a lot more fluent when talking to ATC.
For VR, maybe one day they will invent slip on gloves, this way you can actually use your HAND to touch everything in the cockpit and that will make VR complete IMO.
Wonder if this is on the drawing board or in production somewhere.
Great video! Thanks for the upload.
Valve Index on Google.
Yes several versions in the works
This already exists, without gloves.
Your mismatched monitor sizes set off my OCD...
I understand the use of a cheap Logitech stick, as they tend to be closer to realistic than more expensive ones... But a yoke controller was the biggest difference in getting closer to realism that I ever made. Even more so than adding extra monitors, or any other peripherals.
A yoke is not particularly realistic in simulating a DA-40... (also, I have one - it came with the throttles. I just don't use it for reasons that will become obvious when you see the DA-40 cockpit :) )
Excellent perspective (Best I seen) between flt Sim and reality on many levels. I started with Sub-logic in the 80's now running MFSX . When I was younger I thought I would like to get a private pilot licence but I never got to do it even though I enjoy my flight sim's. Thanks for this enlightenment video.
I like the BUMP AND GRIND of real airplanes vs the rail like feeling in a home sim...
Sims are great but like the song says...
AIN'T NOTHING LIKE THE REAL THING BABY!!!
😮
Wow! Thank you, sir! That's a very thorough job you've done.
Well said! You hit the nail on the head! There's stuff you CAN use sims for, and there's stuff you CANNOT. To a certain degree, that line can be shifted quite a bit with proper hardware, but I'm talking about a motion setup that would go well into the 5-digit-figures. But there is something else that you pointed out that I think is worth getting into simulator pilots heads: Behaving like a real pilot and showing a certain degree of professionalism and earnestness will make your flying A LOT more realistic, satisfying, enjoyable and fun... - ...at absolutely NO extra cost!
I disagree. If you are interested in trying to simulate real world flying complete with procedures and professionalism then that's fine for you. Personally I am much more interested in the view and that means really good accurate ground scenery and flying Helis at 600 feet or less and to hell with the rules, that's what I enjoy. I just want to see what parts of the world look like when flying. I could not care less about "being a pilot" and acting professionally.
That's completely fine :-) I see this whole Flightsim genre as a spectrum from arcade-ish games to serious training devices. There's a place on the spectrum for everyone.
Simulators really shine for instrument training and keeping current. Not so much for stick and rudder skills or initial training, but not bad. I am ppl and igi. As he mentioned in video, flying is definitely more than stick and rudder skills. I think sims are great for scenario based training of emergencies etc. Navigation, situational awareness use of flight deck instruments (gns 430 for example) kap 140 autopilot etc. The new experimental flight model in xp 11.4 is pretty impressive. The aircraft you fly has to be tweaked for the new flight model tho. That could be why he was not impressed with his aircraft. Airfoil labs 172sp has been tweaked for xp 11.4.
You nailed modern aviation
problem......pilots need to understand why they doing things.
Yet modern aviation and airliners and
plane makers hate it when you ask why.... they just want you to
follow procedures even if it means crashing into and ocean or a
building. When I did my a320 coversion, I was told you ask too many
questions
I guess it depends on where you train... that's probably 50% of everything I'm learning, is why things are the way they are and why things work the way they do.
The pc sims can help you learn flying basics, the 9/11 learned that way and even used it to see who would be the pilot for their attacks. That's the reason Microsoft refused to come out with a new sim for a while, they also put a GPS differential in the software that people ended up finding out about.
I did a good take off 30 min in the air & a cross wind landing with a cessna 172 on Texel International Airport - EHTX in 2012 & 2019 i never had a single lesson in real life just over 4000 flying h on sims :P I must admit the bad habits looking at instruments instead of outside was a thing, but i flew good as both instructors said i need to get my wings!
I sympathise with how you must have felt after making this video and then seeing MS announce MSFS2020, considering it made much of what you said about the limitations of pc, airplane surfaces and weather dynamics somewhat redundant.
Great job in the explanation. - 747-400 FO Cargo-
I actually have that Mets hat. Let’s go Mets!
I have to disagree with you on flight dynamics. I'm flying in real world as well and in my opinion it heavily depends on the addon developer. I bet your DA 40 is just not modelled well enough. There are other planes that handle quite accurately. The difference is, that you can do maneuvers you would never do IRL like nail it down on a runway with overspeed and high vertical speed. If you know what you are doing, you can train your flying skills pretty well. This is pretty much the reason why I was able to do my first solo after 10h flight time.
How are there no MMOFS games yet?
$160 an hour for plane and instructor vs $60 for unlimited x-plane? X-plane will at least teach you how to read instruments and general things. It's worth the $60.
The difference is one will teach you how to fly and provide loggable hours (which are required for even the PPL). The other won't. X-plane is not a substitute for flying with an instructor.
@@ModernClassic I didn't say it was but x-plane with teach you basic things for $60 with unlimited hours till you understand it instead of spending $160 an hour to figure out the altimeter.
That's what the instructor's for. And you're not going to really understand it without that. That's one of the problems trying to learn with a sim - you think you know, but you don't know what you don't know. I doubt most simmers could tell me what true, density and pressure altitude are, what a standard sensitive altimeter is actually measuring and why that's important, what the different types of errors a barometric altimeter is prone to are, where the altimeter gets its data and what the different failure modes are, what the difference is between a barometric altimeter and a radio altimeter, etc. Learning all that stuff on your own is possible, sure, but just staring at an instrument in a sim isn't even going to teach you what you don't know. But if you did really want to learn on your own, you can just read the FAR/AIM, Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge and Airplane Flying Handbook. You could do that just as easily without the sim, though. But I doubt most people would, because that's boring and sims are fun, even though the boring stuff is where all the knowledge is.
And if you want to actually learn how to fly, you've *still* got to put the hours in with an instructor. There's no legal way around it. So you may as well just do that from the start, and you can learn everything you need to study about altimeters on the first day, and get some real, loggable time too. It's actually a better deal if you ask me, because you're going to need that anyway. And flying is way more fun than simming too.
Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Sims are fun. I use sims myself. But if you want to really learn how to fly, as in go out, fly a real plane and become licensed to do it, they're not much help until your instrument phase at least. By then, you know how all the instruments work, are able to more easily identify and ignore the stuff that doesn't match up with reality, and are back to just practicing procedures, though this time much more complex ones. That's what home-based sims are good at, is building up that procedural memory through repetition. But you don't really learn anything just by staring at stuff and pressing buttons. You need to get the actual knowledge from some other source, and the experience from actually flying.
When I started flying lessons in 2003, I already knew the function of all instruments. The only thing that flight sims lack is the "feel" of the real airplane.
Right. FSX helps a lot, but doesn't 'really' teach you to fly. It taught me enough to be classed as an 'Advanced Student' when I did learn to fly. I found FSX harder to fly than real planes, mainly the visual and feel feedback.
Helps you gets you license, quickly. Sure, if getting if fast is your goal. What if you have your certs already. I'd like to now how many pilots still use a sim after they gain their desired certs, and why.
It's 2019, almost 2020. Why does ATC still sound like ordering from McDonald's drive thru in 1983?
It doesn't in real life, at least not in the headset I have. X-Plane voices are super clear, although not realistic in any other way. Hopefully the new MSFS finally gets things right.
if you mean Real life ATC, that is because of the way the radio works , its still analogue on a rather old technology with a lot of background noise from both sides.
Because X Plane is complete dumpster fire ripoff of Flight Sim. Microsoft did everything right, these guys did everything wrong and just stole assets from Flight Sim. Wait for the 2020 Microsoft Flight Sim, should have some fantastic ATC, actual traffic, everything X Plane never had without mods or that they couldn't rip off.
@@mynameisray yeah sure, that's why MS completely sued laminar research.
Dude X plane was developed for MAC in the beginning ,clearly you have no clue what you are speaking about. It was also developed from scratch with a complete different mindset for flight dynamics.
But i'm sure you have used the early version of both products and are an experience pilot with many hours under your belt.
probably even an airline pilot or fighter pilot.
duh...
this is VHF radio, one at a time, often inaudible but because of a speed and distance these are freqs fit to communicate, it takes time and practice to be able to understand, when working at BHX it took me a month or so to 'learn' understanding comms on 109-120 MHz (aviation as marines use different freqs of VHF radios)
When I was going through pilot training I modeled my local airport and imported it into Fly! I'd spend an hour or so every evening simulating pattern work and shooting landings. I soloed at 10 hrs and took my check-ride at 42 hrs. Both my instructor and the flying school owner attributed my lower than average hrs before being cleared for both events to my simulator time.
Yes, the feeling isn't there, you can get a simulated plane outside the envelope of it's real-world analogue easily, and (unless you're willing to spend big $$$) the control layout and feel is different. But, for getting down the intangibles like cockpit management, visually referencing your height over the runway by the orientation of the runway in your view, dealing with ATC, etc...these skills can be enhanced with sims.
Hey mate, did you use Ortho4XP to model the scenery around your local Airport?
@@RyanLoveMegenNicole Nope. I've never heard of that program. I'm pretty sure it didn't exist two decades ago. It also appears to be only for X-Plane, which isn't the simulator I used.
WELL just to be fair and balanced...in 1988 i did my solo in 10.2 hrs and checkride (PPL) in 44.2 hours. AND never touched a computer. We didnt even have computers then. So...just sayin before anyone goes out and drops 2000$ on sim stuff....you could use that money for 12 hrs of dual instruction in an airplane.
@@redleader I'm debating spending $$ on a sim. I'm 53. My goals are to become a CFI, and retire from my current career (software security), and teach aviation. I need lots of hours. I have 50 logged and will get my my PPL soon, but I'll then need ~200 more. Some of that will be obtained getting more certificates, add-ons and endorsements. I'm not sure spending money on a sim will help me reach my goal. I have no desire to fly a sim as a game.
I learned how to fly helicopters in VR and 6 months later I'm a legit helicopter pilot. I was hovering in 1.8.
is it that easy to learn to be an actual pilot?
@@SkippyOnMeBalls It can be if you practice. I was already a fixed wing pilot, so mine was just an add-on. Learning to hover is the hardest part, and practicing in VR makes it way easier, more accessible, safer, and cheaper.
What game did you use?
@@pkaser what sim did you use?
@@FirstnameLastName-mr8lk He never responded so you know he's full of 💩
18:06 I think the opposite of Captain Sully would be Captain Silly.
Captain suuuuuuuuck!
LMAO
I really thought he was gonna go for captain sucky
I agree I thought he would have said that since that s the first stuff that came to my mind 😁😆
Yes! Or "Captain Sh!tty"
The flightsimmers' pecking order:
1. Military pilots who also sim;
2. Airline pilots who also sim;
3. Former military and airline pilots who sim;
4. GA pilots who also sim;
5. Simmers who own a plane;
6. Former GA pilots who sim;
7. Simmers who have a PPL;
8. Simmers who used to have a PPL;
9. Student pilots who sim on the side;
10. Simmers who have become student pilots;
11. Simmers who have taken a discovery flight;
12. The rest of us.
Great comment ! I must be 9.5 as a former student pilot who couldn't afford it anymore and switched to sim
13, aircraft mechanics who also want to fly what they work on
@@marchovens that's gotta be higher than 9 at least though
12
@@marchovens
If you`re an A&P mechanic, I consider those folks pretty high up. Without them, nothing would fly at all. So, more like 5 or 4.
I am a CFI and have to say that you absolutely nailed the benefits of a PC based flight sims as well as their inadequacies. They are great for IFR training, learning basic flight procedures, acclimation to systems and flight controls, use of checklists, landing pattern setup, go-around procedures, emergency operations, etc. All aspiring pilots and instrument students should have access to as good a flight sim system as their budget will allow. ESPECIALLY instrument students.
I can always tell when a ‘0’ time primary student comes my way that has had access to a PC sim. They get in the groove MUCH faster than someone that never flown a sim.
However, for realistic “stick and rudder” training....they fall way short. I have not seen any PC based system properly emulate stalls, spins, cross wind (re: cross control) landings or takeoffs or even realistic taxi operations. Tailwheel simulation on any of these platforms is a total joke which is too bad. Hopefully, someone, someday, will develop a PC program that faithfully replicates actual aircraft performance.
Anyway, great video. Not sure where you are with your training, but good luck to you,
I’m a real pilot, and everything you said is true.
Thank you for this video. It actually got me thinking quite a bit about the issue and how it has helped or hindered my own training.
I'm training in a 172 and my sim is set up with X-Plane, Samsung WMR, rudder pedals and a CH yoke. Honestly, after having VR I can't really go back to the monitor stuff although I very much appreciate your comments about not being able to see physical things around you (controls, tablets, etc.). As you note, the virtual controls and tablets can be a bit hard to use in VR and the image isn't as sharp as I'd like it to be (however, based on what I've heard from others, my setup seems much better than Oculus) but the immersive experience makes up for the shortfalls in my opinion.
I think the usefulness of the sim for training depends on what you are using it for. Does flying the sim make it easier for you to jump in the plane and pick things up more quickly? That's a hard thing to quantify. You'd have to know how you would have picked things up if you didn't do the sim which is impossible. I felt that it might have helped a little but I also felt totally lost at times in the real plane. I often felt I was learning all this stuff all over again.
Where I'm finding the sim really helping is practice after I've learned something. I find it especially useful for practicing stalls, spins, spirals and side-slips to re-enforce the muscle memory. The key is, I'm using it after I've learned something in the real plane. Practicing before just builds bad habits. I found I've had to unlearn many things that I was doing in the sim (I still forget carb heat because my sim plane doesn't have that and P-factor is poorly modelled in the sim so I have to really think about using the rudder). If you have a reference to work from (the real world) then the sim becomes a great tool for practice.
I really see the potential for the sim in instrument training and this has been confirmed from other pilots I have talked to. Usually, when you talk to a pilot and ask them about sims the first thing they will tell you is it's great for instrument training practice. Again, it's using it to keep up skills you have already learned. Not the other way around.
In the end, everyone learns differently. I'm a deep learner. That is, I need to know how everything is working to have it sink in. The sim has really helped in that regard. I can try different things in the sim that I wouldn't normally do in real life and see what happens. Most of the time it helps reinforce the fact that the plane isn't going to drop out of the sky and that a Cessna 172 will probably know a lot more about flying than I ever will.
What is your VR setup that is better than Oculus?
Dude, I usually bypass long comments like yours but I am glad I took the time to read yours. I am building my home setup with an HP VR headset but I am going to wait on learning certain things until after my real life pilot training in a couple of weeks. Thanks for sharing.
How many people in X-plane 11 gang
⬇
I am a real life airline pilot, I can tell you that even those Full Flight Level-D simulators we did our training in are not fully real. The control feel, the flight dynamics are about 85~90% close to a real airliner. I have both Boeing and Airbus ratings, if we only talk about the "flying" part of the simulator, they can only give you a general idea of what the plane will feel like. It will always be easier to fly a real aircraft. Every six months, we need to go back to simulator to do our recurrent training / check. All of us can immediately feel the difference of the real from the FFS Level-D sims.
s9360321: I flew heaters for the Air Force for 10 years and have been flying for an
airline since the late 90's. I agree with everything you say. Even Cat D sims have issues such as "training transfer" both positive and negative. I believe it was negative training transfer that was a causative factor in catastrophic mishap of AA 587 shortly after 9/11.
In addition to other problems add poor motion cueing to the list and, at least to me, the obvious lack of pilot motivation during the awareness or threat of danger.
The perception of danger and commensurate stress levels are often markedly reduced and pilots frequently make decisions, i.e., continuing an unstable approach when, if shooting an approach, they would elect a go around.
I can almost always I.D. a guy who spends a lot of time in home sims. They have a tendency to have their eyes locked onto the instrument panel even in CAVU conditions, rather than outside the aircraft.
I'm not knocking these "sims", they do have their advantages, but things can go south pretty quick in even a C-172 and there's no way you can build in a high pucker factor when you're sitting in front of a desktop and even if you wind up in a smoking hole you can walk away, perhaps wiser, but in no way knowing how you would handle a real mishap if airborne.
@@andredarin8966 I'm a student pilot, with no sim experience, for what that's worth. Perhaps the sims should focus only on what they are good at, and not try to be what they aren't good at.
Is it really easier flying a Boeing in real life? I would think it would be more difficult than the sim.
@@Verasterr its easier than its flight sim plane
Personally, I do think that home flight sims REALLY do teach you a lot for real world flying. I played around with flight sims for many, many years. One day, whilst visiting a Sunday market at a local airport, I saw a Flight School and thought, what the hell, lets have a look.
To try and cut a long story short, I did a trial flight, then started taking lessons. My instructor was impressed about how I knew all the instruments, how fast a trainer plane (Piper Tomahawk in my case) descended and etc, etc. I did my solo at 20 hours, at the time, that was pretty darn good!
There is no doubt in my mind, flight sims greatly helped me. I reckon it shaved off a couple of thousand dollars off flying lessons.
Must admit though, after flying the real thing, flight sims have lost my interest. As good as they are, general home flight sims just cannot cannot fully simulate a real aircraft. But certainly go for them if you love the thought of flying and maybe one day do the real stuff.
Hey, so just like my earlier video on flight sims, this one seems to have struck a chord! That's good! I welcome all constructive comments - as you know if you watch the video, I took many suggestions from commenters on that earlier video and incorporated them into this one. All I really ask, though, is that you actually watch the video before commenting on it. That's only polite, and just good RUclips etiquette. I've seen quite a few comments so far where it's obvious the commenter has not even watched the intro, let alone the whole video, and just a word of warning that those comments will be deleted and/or hidden from public view. Thanks!
A reasonable compromise between full VR and static is to use TrackIR. Having just got my PPL I agree with all your other points. For VFR the Orbx scenery is worth a look (at least in the UK).
I think that PC flight sims does help with stick and rudder too. No simulated plane is a very realistic model of it's real counterpart, true (and mainly because the unrealistic feel of the joystick or yoke compared to the real life ones), but the general response of the plane to control inputs is correct, because the sim is just solving the physical equations of flight mechanics that the real planes fly on. So you can learn how power + pitch = performance, how throttle controls altitude and elevator controls speed, how you need MORE power to fly slower (and for example keep the approach path) below best-glide speed, how to crab to correct for crosswind and maintain the plane trajectory aligned with the runway, how you need to pull up to keep the nose from going down in a turn, and how a stall happens at a faster speed when you do that, just to mention a few. It will not FEEL the same when you get to the real plane, but you will experience the same phenomena and you need to do basically the same things with the controls to account for them. So even if you practice SERIOUSLY in a simulated Cessna 172 and then go and flight the real Cessna 172, it will not feel like you are flying the same plane, but you will feel like you are flying a plane! More or less like if you were transitioning from a different type. (except of course for the physical sensations of accelerations and rotations that cannot be simulated, not even (fully) in a real-iron Level D 6-axis-of-motion airliner simulator).
This is a valid point. I watch a lot of RUclips pilots fly different types of planes. I was struggling with the Stinson L5 tail dragger in x-plane and by watching how real pilots fly real tail draggers was able to figure out what I was doing wrong and understand why I ended up doing ground loops and correct it. Now I can take off and land the thing without issues. With taildraggers, I was also running in some edge cases with x-plane where the sim just isn't realistic. Austin Meyer has recently been talking up some flightmodel changes that should help for the upcoming 11.40. So, it's not perfect but in general you can indeed use a sim to learn such things as stabilizing an approach, nailing your speeds, and correcting for crosswinds. All of these things are practiced a lot during real training.
Another point to make is that x-plane is actually used for commercial flight sims as well. The difference between the home version and the commercial version is a lot of equipment and a usb key that locks down the configuration. But it's the same software and it's being used to train pilots who can log hours on these things. It's realistic enough for the FAA.
A final point to make is that most commercial pilots don't actually hand fly most of the time. If you fly an airliner, the auto pilot goes on right after takeoff and does not come off until the plane is lining up to land. All the rest is button fiddling, checklist checking, procedure following, etc. All of which you can simulate and learn at home.
Imagine how much more real MSFS 2020 is going to be, compared to the past.
True,but still pretty buggy tough
re: pilotedge, my 2c, ff PE controllers didn't act like they expected you to be a pro, there wouldn't be much training value in the service
similar thing about the airports covered, the goal is for you to learn the system not memorize the procedures at a single airport... you want to build your skills in a complex and potentially unfamiliar environment so you can apply them anywhere you fly in the US
definitely not for everyone though... great video, thanks for sharing!
I had a controller yelling at me on pilotedge. It was also really obnoxious to fly multiple states and have the same controller for ever tower. I'd never use it again. I got more out of just listening to Live ATC.
the geek that’s an interesting comment
I’ve got my Privat pilot permit in 1970 on a 150. My first solo was in the biggest turbulence and they changed runway on me. I was too high, did a go around and landed fine. We had to do spins too. I learned to fly because I was afraid of flying. Rented 172s for about 18 years, stopped because it was too boring. Communication was the hardest. Bought a radio and listen to it for weeks, especially cause English is not my mother tongue. Good show, you are 110% right.
If you do not want to use yoke, do yourself a favor and buy T16000 TM instead of that awful right hand oldschool logitech. I've had both, the T16000 is much smoother/accurate stick and is ambidextrous....
When I was learning to fly real aircraft, I would use Flight Sim prior to my flights to get a basic idea of the flight prior. I found Flight Sim to be a good supplemental tool for me. I had the opportunity to log quite a few hours in a C141 Full motion Simulator that was nighttime only. The instructor was quite surprised at how well I did. I think this was due to practicing instrument night flying with flight sim. Practicing engine outs and other scenarios in my opinion made me a better pilot.
You lucky dog! Most of my time in the C-141 sim was for a checkride.
I don't think ATC communications is correctly termed "highly technical". Highly standardized, abbreviated and procedural is what it should be called. 😁
Aerodynamics, understanding why procedures are the way they are and such issues are technical. Pilots need not care about the real hard technical stuff though. That's for the engineers at aircraft manufacturing facilities to deal with.
Your comments on PilotEdge are extremely unfair, and I have no idea why you are so negative. Apart from anything else, there is a wealth of training available on their website, which is totally free! I speak as someone who uses PE a lot, but also have 20+ years of RW flying. If you are being constantly chewed out, then you must really be annoying them by being unprepared.
No, I've never been chewed out, but I certainly have heard others who have been. Also, PilotEdge just does not model even the airports in its coverage area accurately (or at all). I fly out of KFFZ - listen to some LiveATC feeds of that airport and then see if it's modeled accurately in PE. PE doesn't model things that are part of airport LOA's, from what I can tell. And KFFZ is one of the busiest training airports in the country, and it is in PE's coverage area.
@@ModernClassic Actually, PE do not cover KFFZ as a towered field (nor KIHA), although Phoenix International is covered. Without getting involved in a long discussion, PE training for GA is really concentrated in SoCal. The Western Area expansion (although one can do GA stuff everywhere) is largely used by flightsim enthusiasts flying Boeings and Airbuses. The list of Class D airports that are covered in this huge area is more limited, and they do not claim to "man" all the towers in so many states!
@@ModernClassic I'd humbly suggest understanding the 2 areas of coverage (ZLA and Western US) before flying on PE. ZLA covers every public use towered airport, whereas Western US covers all the Bravos, all the Charlies and SOME of the Deltas. You'd want to be familiar with the Delta list before using the network to avoid cases where you're expecting tower service at a field where the network doesn't provide it. The IFR departure instructions for the towered airports are as accurate as we can get them based on LOAs and SOPs from the FAA. Many VFR procedures are not documented in those sources but are instead in a local document at the facility that we can't access. Hence, certain VFR departure/arrival instructions (such as referencing local landmarks) won't happen on the network.
Then why was I chewed out by multiple controllers? Why is it you get the same controller for the entire west coast? I would never use that garbage service again, LIVE ATC is so muchhhh better. I hated that "fake" service so much I'd just troll the controller and buzz his tower.
the geek you sir are an idiot. How the hell could PE actually pay 100s of people to be manning the towers for 12 hours every day which is when the service is up? It isn’t logistically or economically possible. Just because you are talking to the same person, which by the way sometimes doesn’t happen the terminology and phraseology is absolutely spot on so as a training aid it is ticking all the boxes.
I agree on most of the points. For me the native VR was a huge change for more realistic experience using photorealistic sceneries and 'study level' aircrafts. VR improves massively your situational awareness making landings easier. The sight of the runway coming out of the haze feels just like irl. Of course touch gloves or similar things would still improve the experience in the future. What I'm trying to say is that VR simulates the flight environment in 3 dimensional space the real way which a flat screen can't do.
"They're in the seat, just not the right one"
Just finished my PPL last July and have. been an avid Flight Simmer since HS and must say that it does help. I used Xplane 11 throughout my training and ended up finishing up my check ride and FAA PPL in about 55 hrs total and my sim helped alot of those. My CFI even noted that I was much better prepared in the aircraft during lessons and also my solo and especially cross country portions were very painless and quickly done. That was because I used my sim for checklist items (engine start, run-up procedures, etc) but also flew each and every cross country at least 2-3 times before we actually did it on Xplane first. Often flew actual flights we had just flown again afterwards on Xplane as well. In that way I was much better prepared on what I would see and where things should be from an orientation standpoint when in the real plane. Helped my comfort level especially when I was on those solo flights as I had the confidence as I'd done it before. Agree doesn't help for weather and wind and other forces of flight nor ATC interactions mostly but can make timing and reflexes and the mental aspects of flying a lot better and less familiar.
Years of geeky flight simming has definitely helped me, my instructors did mention how quickly I was learning BUT I must say that when flying in the real world you use your whole body to feel the aircraft so much more than I would have thought! As a flight simmer I also have to learn to look outside of the aircraft as I seem to focus on the cockpit too much and look ahead instead of all around me... but used correctly it is a great training aid!
Edit: great video btw!
well done mate. Some of the stuff you said in terms of RW flying isn't 100% correct, but you have the right gist of it when considering where you are in your training (I'm not gonna judge you for it, I made LOADS of mistakes when I was uploading videos with the same level of experience you have, with worse production quality to boot). More importantly, your conclusions are actually spot on. I've been saying for a long time that the X-Plane flight model isn't anywhere as great as hard core fans keep claiming. Stalls are a joke. In fact, anything outside of the normal flight envelope is *completely* *unrealistic* in X-Plane. I love both P3D and XP, and use both. When it comes to GA flying, I prefer P3D, because even though it does behave more linearly, from a practical point of view, it's more realistic.
One thing I'll say about VR is, you're 100% right, it's pretty useless for practice. I got the Motion sensors that supposedly allows you to control the aircraft with you hands, but it brings a whole range of new problems. What I found it useful for, practicing flows in the A320 when I was prepping for my type rating. It allowed me to become comfortable with the flight deck and in general made my "armchair flying" more fun, which means I practiced more and was thus more prepared when I started my type rating.
Good luck with your training man :)
Also, sending you a PM. I'm working on something that might help you with your instrument rating.
Anything outside the normal flight envelope is also badly simulated with the airlines level D sims.
Granted they handle the stall characteristic, but if you decide to pull crazy stuff like loops and the like, it will not behave realistically as if you had tried the same thing in a real airliner.
@@CMDRSweeper The Level Ds, and even FSX for that matter, simulate a stall accurately enough so a to be able to apply the correct recovery procedure, even in the case where you keep the stall inputs for a long period of time, that's just not true with the default aircraft in XP. I love the platform, I really really do. But I'm not gonna just defend it blindly for no good reason.
You mentioned that you found a flight model for the DA-40 you were flying, where did you get that? I'm working with X-Plane to supplement my glider training and need a 2-33 Schweitzer to get my checklists to apply, and just don't know where to look.
Nice Videos! Never let knuckleheads bother ya... It's the internet... If you don't have enough sense to think for yourself and realize that not everything said is gospel or even intended to be... Then please, PLEASE... stick with the SIM!
YES. I literally in middle school learned for 1 year to fly on Flight Simulator (90s). Then we moved on to flying, taking off, but not landing single engine planes. They are literally that easy if someone can help you find the non keyboard controlls.
Now rules of air....no.
Great video !!! In my opinion I think you're correct on all your points. To me the most difficult thing in flying is talking and understanding ATC. Talking, flying, understanding what ATC wants you to do is what's going to get you in trouble in real life if is not done right. I hated every time I had to ask ATC to repeat last transmission. Flightsims can teach you a lot of good stuff, but ATC "crap" is not one of them. Again, awesome video!!!!
Considering they use PC Flight Sims to train actual real world pilots now days.... I mean.. It seems like a good chance it can teach anyone to fly. Heck, the planes and instructions in DCS are so detailed and the instruction so specific that it could teach you how to actually start something like an A10 and fly it around.
Loved the bad habit part about looking outside the aircraft.
Something worth trying if you can get a loan unit is TrackIR
It's a compromise with a lot less of the issues of VR.
If you ever do try it it is essential that Track IR is *DISABLED* in XP11, install X-Camera and use TrackIR via that instead.
Default XP11 TrackIR is horrible.
It's great to be able to look for traffic on final before taking the runway with just a simple thought and turn of the head.
Well if Gran Turismo is any indication, yes.
Literally taught me how to drive faster than I ever should and how to handle a car right on the edge of control. Made it all the way to the f1 car. Loved that game. It was a Sim in its own right.
It does certainly help :) i am a flight student and enthusiastic simmer :) even our teacher recommended it
Thats true.
I certainly found Sims helpful in my Inst training.
Really helped my instrument scan while flying approaches.
I learn driving in a driving simulator 'Gran Turismo" and it gave me an idea how to do it correctly i real life. It made my senses a little bit sharper when it comes to maneuvering and using the brakes when in traffic. It made me a better gamer and a better driver...
Same here. I leaned about general car physics and how to remain calm during an emergency
I am not sure what your beef with PilotEdge is, but the one thing, from my experience, that you can learn in X-Plane with PilotEdge is ATC procedures and interactions. I found it to be very realistic environment when interacting with the controllers, especially when attempting to complete one of their Ratings (CATs, or I-ratings). You really have to know your stuff and be on your toes to get thru those. Is it perfect? Nothing is perfect, but I have not found the Controllers to expect me to be a "Pro", but they do expect me to be prepared. They have been often very helpful in their critiques of my procedures when I did not do it correctly. On those occasions, the controllers' that I have heard a controller "yell" (your characterization not mine) at someone, was due to their being very upset with a pilot that didn't have a clue about what he/she was doing! I am surprised that your "real life" controllers (of which most of them are) would not only do the same thing but write you up for it also, especially if you don't know what you are doing ! Once, while in flight training for my PPL, I had two "real life" controllers arguing about where I should land, while I was on my 2nd Cross-country. Not a fun experience in my real-life flying! Much of your video has accurate information, but I find the section on PilotEdge wanting. I find PilotEdge to be a very good learning experience, albeit challenging, which I have far from mastered. Good luck with your flying.
My "beef" with PilotEdge is detailed in the video. And no, real life controllers do not "write up" pilots unless they deviate from instructions. They don't get mad or become rude over non-standard comm phraseology or even improper readbacks, and there is certainly nothing to write up in those cases.
So modern flying is much more complicated than most pc flight sims, but do sims which model, say WW2 planes fare any better against much more low tech challenge?
Unfortunately I have no way of judging the systems and weapons modeling of those sims. I will say that the flight model of il-2 Sturmovik feels pretty realistic with all the settings cranked up. It's the most realistic WWII sim I've experienced in terms of flight model. But it's still possible that it doesn't quite get the specific airplanes being modeled right in terms of their aerodynamics; I have no way to judge that.
Not sure about the DA40, but both the real-life and SIM DA20 behave pretty much the same regarding stalling. I as not able yet to get the real-life Katana into a full stall or even a wing-over, it just keeps it nose down, regardless of how much I pull back. Coming from a Piper Tomahawk, this is just ridiculous!
Same behavior with slipping, it makes almost no difference on descent speed.
Other than that, I am just pissed off that they dont simulate the original 80HP Katana, but instead the overpowered 100HP one
Where did you learn to fly?
Where did you learn to fly?
Where did you learn to fly?
Captain SUCK! You just won me over with that one. Lol.
The answer is YES, it “can” help. But you’re relying on everything to go right. When people’s lives depend on it, you don’t want someone who “can” land a plane safely, you want one who WILL land the plane, which means knowing all the aviation guidelines and procedures, not just knowing how the controls operate.
Advantages
*Sims especially with VR headsets help you learn procedures and develop a sight picture (develop a mental picture what landings and other manuevers should look like)
*Otho xp helps you practice cross country flights
* IFR Practice is realistic
Cons
* Can't practice radio calls realistically
* VR currently cuts you off from the real world making reading checklist and moving flight controls slightly more difficult. Gauges may be blurry depending on the headset you get and software you use.
* May or may not be able to realistically simulate the physical environment due to...
- Accuracy of flight and ground dynamics (Highly variable)
-Material sim equipment is made out of (plastic reacts different than metal). This is crucial for developing muscle memory
- Your access to motion sims. Equipment like "Yaw VR" sim can help but can be pricey.
Overall: Sims can help you develop learn proper procedures and visuals. Most likely won't help stick and rudder skills.
Hi how do you get the instrument on your iPad?
It seems like the MS flight simulator 2020 team was listening close to what you are saying. 😊
Hopefully! I am looking forward to FS2020. But I am skeptical too. It's a day 1 purchase for sure, though.
"Well, they're in their seat, just not the right one" 😂
RE: VR. VR is for sight seeing and experiencing the fun of the landing. It really isn't needed for the take-off or cruise. I should add that it makes taxing much easier. Don't be afraid to pop in and out of VR. I will often turn off the VR once I'm cruising and turn in back on at some point in a decent. For just messing around and sight seeing, I lift the glasses up and look at the charts. In real life we take our focus off of the controls when we look at charts. It' just a tad easier to to back into the cockpit in real life.
Finally, upgrade to the Rift S is you can. The improved resolution is a deal maker. I was able to sell my original one for $250. That means the upgrade only cost me $150.
Student pilot, just rigged XP11 with yoke and rudder, in real life learning on Cessna 172 and also Diamond DA40. Your RUclips is appropriate and well-timed to my circumstances. Really appreciate your insight!
Was about to subscribe to PilotEdge, didn't anticipate one could end up with grumpy ATC on the other end! Will look into Ortho4XP. Also will be more realistic about how much (or little) my XP11 setup will help me with my training.
I like your presentation. Most others on RUclips just rant without a prepared script, yours is well thought out and well presented, clear, and well edited.
I enjoyed your video. I got my ASEL ticket a long time ago but I haven't flown in a long time either. I'm not using any flight sim software right now or since MS Flight died. I liked MSFSX as well and have used just about every rendition of their flight sims up until then. Disappointing that they are gone. But I have a question for you. What sort of computing muscle do the drone pilots use in their military pilot training to fly drones? It would seem that our (MSFS, etc) flight sims might come close to the military versions, sort of... Those pilots are in unmoveable seats so they don't get all the bumps and dips that real aircraft pilots experience. Thanks for the good vid.
I can find nothing referencing PFM and the flying of aircraft. the only thing I know PFM to stand for is, Pulse-frequency modulation
. So thanks a lot, I'm stumped.
All I could find (and I think this is the answer), is Pure F***ing Magic.
All valid points, I would also add that developers have to make sims for consumers, they want you in the air and enjoying the experience so that you keep flying/buy more add ons, also some users may have disabilities or may have seizures so as a result they can't replicate violet shaking or fast movement. I would love to fly a real plane, but can't justify the costs involved or the time to learn, so I sim as it relaxes me, I know it's not real, but that's ok as anything you see on a monitor is also not real.
I only saw your FSX video last night and was surprised to see the XPlane one today. I’ve used sims from the very early days and currently have FSX, P3d and XPlane 11. These sims are alll expanded with detailed scenery and photo realistic scenery. The planes I fly are only planes that model the systems accurately so I can fly them accordingly. When I was training for my PPL, my CFI was constantly singing my praises and promoting the simulator I use as evidence of the progress and skills I demonstrated in my lessons.
I now fly VR in addition to non-VR flights. I agree with the resolution issues but with high end computers, you can achieve much better resolution and there are new headsets that are improving on the original Rift. On the second point you made, there are addons that allow you to use and call up charts - paper or live in the cockpit along with POH details, checklists etc.
I appreciate simming has a way to go but it has come so far and who knows what’s around the corner. I agree you can learn bad habits. But if you decide to get serious and learn to fly correctly, the sim can be so much enjoyable and support your passion to fly.
Thanks again for presenting this information to us in a well balanced manner.
Regards, Paul
dang MSFS 2020.. now it is $60 on sale for the top version, but there is no point in buying it (I got it on sale ultimate edition for $78 about a year ago and it felt like a waste of money because I never played it, and now it is even cheaper, and there is MSFS 2024 coming out soon when they said they would not replace MSFS 2020 a few years ago).
I’ve been flying for 16 years and have worked as a flight instructor. I’ve also always had a love of flight sims on PCs. I can tell you from first hand experience that being in the air in a real aircraft is far different from being safely inside your living room on a computer. I’ve also seen the effect on many of my students who were proficient in flight sim, but have trouble in a real aircraft because of sensory overload. The simulators are good for teaching you what instruments do what and what the controls do, but that’s about as far as they go. They don’t teach you about proper safe procedures, ATC, airspace, weather and so much more. Flying is more than just taking off and landing, real world pilots have to be able to have a mastery of the aircraft and to fly with precision by holding altitudes, speeds, headings etc to tight standards.
jeremyc311709 you should give pilotedge a try. Take a free trial. It’s the most important add on in my sim. Without it I would not use it very often.
A full-blown flight sim has just been added to my wealthy toy list
On Ground dynamics and Flight Dynamics, you should try DCS: World. They used real-life pilots as subject-matter experts during development of their flight-models, and the DCS engine is known to be even more realistic than XP11.
Yep DCS flight models should be good (for the in house modules at least) but the thing is it's a combat sim focusing in that part and the only civilian planes currently in are the Yak-52 and Christen Eagle II. Now if they made a Cessna or a twin prop or even a B737/A320, it would be a lot easier to compare.
This is a pretty good overview.
One thing I will add though is that some speculation about Flight Sim 2020 is that it will be done via streaming from a central sever network, and so all of the fight dynamics and physics may well end up being computed remotely with your local client maybe not doing any calculations or rendering at all. Or it may be some sort of hybrid scenario where the server is telling your clinet machine what the advanced physics are while also streaming terrain data but letting your local machine do the graphical rendering and primary physics work.
It's hard to say, but it does seem like it won't be long before everyone will be able to log in to access a flight sim with the same sort of computing power as any of the big professional sims.
Also with things like Hololens (which is also an MS product) there's a real chance that we'll see augmented reality coming to the sim world. Build your 'cockpit' and see your hands using it in real time, but with the graphical overlay of what's missing still shown. That sort of setup will be the real killer combo for flight sim in the 2020's. By 2030 who even knows.
Don’t worry about the search and rescue thing. They call around. If you landed at a towered airport, you’re covered, but, try to remember closing it. YOU WOULD NEVER SHUT DOWN A SINGLE ENGINE AIRPLANE IN FLIGHT. If your CFI does this, don’t fly with him. He’s nuts. Lol. We just idle the engine.
As an RC Flyer and Sim player, I often think about pursuing a PPL once my salary works its way up. But I'm beginning to wonder if that's just my Ego trying to make me the big fish in a little sim, since it's very fun to fly like an idiot and no one's that bothered if you do that below 400ft (well, okay, not THAT much of an idiot - but by real plane standards). As a pure hobbyist, have I already got the best the air can offer on this side of all those checklists and tests?
Anyway, I'm wondering if you're interested in doing another topic: can RC Planes teach you to how fly? Of course ATC and procedure go out of the window here, but flight physics and environment are certainly more real. It's funny how you say sims aren't realistic on the likes of take off or stalling - because the sims made for flying RC have the exact same problem! I'm basically an ace in Realflight9 but in REAL flight, well see my vids and be the judge haha!
I can Add a certain perspective here I used consumer flight Sims along time Yes they can’t hold a candle to the actual event .. Recently had the opportunity to fly a real Plane The differences were surprising not what I Expecting. I was amazed How much control I had And how responsive inputs were (Probably years of struggling with low frame rates trying to fly). Struggled a little Steering aircraft with rudder-pedals on The ground. I always thought the hardest thing Would be the rudder in flight ...Surprisingly it was very intuitive (Flight simulators offer zero rudder feedback) also Once you throttle down there’s only one place the plane is going ...”down” Takes a lot of effort to pull back on yoke..... in Simulator you seem to float a lot . But I Got to fly over my house I would highly suggest it to any Sim Pilot It only cost me 300 bucks you will never forget The experience
I fully agree with you. Learn to fly is a large term. Stick and rudder can only be learnt in a real airplane. But when it comes to procedures, ATC with PilotEdge (for me that s the only viable option to get in ATC skills and training), instrument flying, building muscle memory (I have a full replicate C172 cockpit, you can check in my RUclips channel), and train for emergencies...then flight sim whatever the version, is absolutely a nice way to remain proficient and gain confidence in the real cockpit. It helped me to get my PPL with lower amount of hours and even though I don t fly anymore since 2 years now, I m sure I won t be lost if I have to fly again tomorrow!
Vatsim uses the real frequencies, plus you have to do a training to become an ATC on vatsim
My 2 cents. Simulators will help in your decision-making, planning and system knowledge which is the better part of flying. As for stick and rudder skill, simulators will only slightly add-value. Having tactile feedback and the real feel of the controls especially in winds is only possible with hands-on flight. But it's great for setting up adverse situations that you couldn't safely do in a real aircraft. In order to challenge your decision-making. I agree the realism of ATC and comms with traffic is missing....comms are a truly fast-paced and dynamic part of flying
Add to the list, the comforting voice of your instructor when he says, "I've got the airplane." after you kicked the aircraft into a spin practicing departure stalls.
Do you get physical manuals of the planes you choose to learn to fly on the flight sims? Can they be bought from somewhere? (like the books you were showing) - books on air-traffic procedures etc? Just general real-world pilot license manuals?? Thanks!
Have them use the controllers. I think it is more realistic having to reach for the throttle and switches than having it otherwise personally. Ditch the yoke. That interaction with the aircraft is key......
Sims may be years away from exacting real world scenarios, but if I can take my personal experience of my many hours of practicing driving performance vehicles on driving simulators most notably gran turismo on the playstation one. Just having the basic graphical representation of weight shifting, inertia, drive mode, correct gears, road positioning, Making smooth subtle and forward thinking actions had notable effects on how quickly i was able to adapt to a real world scenario. Now im not in anyway saying this applies to all real world simulations, however I will go as far to state practicing on simulations definitely enable users put in real world situations the ability to be less overwhelmed or sensory overloaded when faced with real life scenarios. I wholey agree with the negative effects of learning bad habits however I myself would never take such assertiveness and blatant disregard to a real life situation. Partly because sims at least allow a crash scenario.
Im a simmer and i fly real planes and professional simulators. I even landed on a carrier on a real 737-800ng simulator
Answer is yes you can
Only had sim-experience, did an hour of flight instruction, went perfectly.... Still hate flying in real life though ;)
Again, the answer is "No, you can't". You're assuming everything went right in your carrier landing. Let's say, however, that you're shooting the approach in your 737 (in real life) and your no.1 window outer pain cracks. What do you do? Tuen the window heat off and reduce speed to 250kts below 10,000'? Reduce cabin differential pressure to a maximum of 5 PSI? Reduce it to a maximum of 2 PSI?
What happens during a flight in icing conditions with wing anti-icing selected to ON?
I'd bet my lungs if you were in a CAT D 737 sim you had someone giving you a bit of help. The real question is: What would you do if for some reason a hole was blown in the fuselage and you had to know what to do with a 170 passengers aboard while you were airborne, not just playing games? That's a variable--the pucker factor--, a critical one, that you can't program into a $10,000,000 sim.
Sounds like your saying someone who has never experienced a flight sim has the same familiarity with rudders, trim, flaps, yoke, ground affect, pitching/rolling, takeoff/landings as someone who has hundreds of hours in a Cessna 172 in either MSFS 2020 or X-Plane 11/12? You’re comparing PC sim pilots with experienced pilots and experienced simmers are comparing themselves with those with zero actual or sim experience.
PS. Sounded very condescending. You can also relax, NO pc simmer is trying to take off in a real plane without proper official training.
I will agree with you about the all pros a flight sim can teach and I will disagree almost about all that cons you said about a flight sim. First from all, you had "stuck" with X-Plane.. what about Prepar3D by Lockheed Martin's sim (costs about $2,500 the full lincense) and also keep in mind about Microsoft' flight simulator 2020... If the only one existed sim in the world was only X-Plane then and only then I would had agree with you and I would had give you a positive feedback. I am a pilot studied in ComAir aviation academy in Florida, Stanford.
Flight sims seem to help people get their certifications more quickly. But how quickly, and is quick even important? If you are just trying to get a PPL in the US, and you know the FAA will let you have it in 40 hours, but the national average is 60-70 hours, then sure let the sim help you shorten that closer to 40. For example, if you are spending say $200 / hr for lessons, and you get your PPL at say 50 hours, and you save perhaps 10-20 hours off your training costs with a sim (based on national avg.) That savings will be about the cost of a basic home sim setup. You break even. I suppose you could sell the sim, and come out ahead a bit. You get your license quicker, which is I guess the whole point.
But what if you are planning on attaining more certs and ratings than just a PPL? (For example, Instrument, Multi-Engine, Commercial, CFI, ATP) You'll need lots more hours, not the type you get from a sim. Who's to say if a sim will help you on this journey.
First, I am a CFII And have worked for a major level D simulator manufacturer. My comments are not to offend but to educate potential pilots and reduce bad habits from being developed, if not for the input of a flight instructor!
This misunderstood use of Forward and Aft control inputs!
Your comment about the use of the control inputs forward and aft is partly correct and only apply for cruising altitude and holding altitude at Air speeds between cruising altitude and the phases of flight between cruising altitude and approach.
Control inputs forward and aft are used to control the angle of attack of the wing. This in turn controls your air speed. At cruising speed and altitude you trade off minor changes in air speed for minor changes in altitude. But in other phases of flight this isn’t the case!
Consider controlling an aircraft at critical air speeds as in slow flight, climb out, Maxximum cruise altitude and approach phases of flight. During these phases of flight The wing is at or close to its critical angle of attack at which point back pressure causes the airplane to slow, not climb and exceeded it’s critical angle of attack and the wings stalls.
PITC FOR SPEED!
POWER FOR ALTITUDE!
This is the golden rule in controlling an aircraft! You trade energy for one or the other, if there is any to trade?
In a stabilized phase, where the numbers matter, (climb, max cruse altitude, descent,approach phase of flight) this is the rule! This is the best rule during all phases of flight!
This would be a good exercise to demonstrate with your desktop simulator or even in a level D multi million dollar flight simulator which I have used to educate pilots, mostly private (which is a lot of fun on motion!) Reduce the power to the point the stall horn (Stick shaker in modern turbine aircraft) is going off, in stabilized, straight level flight, climb out or on approach to landing. Then without the control input of power increase back control input. I think you already know the outcome, as do most the pilots that mistakenly believe pitch is for altitude! They all say “The airplane will stall!”without even me demonstrating it to them! Then we demonstrate it in the sim anyway, because how often do you get to us a multi million dollar sim for educational purposes and fun!
My son learned to fly mostly on a desktop Microsoft x! He learned to fly before he was old enough to get his Pilots license. I would take him up to demonstrate That indeed what he was learning on the desktop applied to the real airplanes! That said! Control of an aircraft around its axis is just a small part of being a pilot! He went to ATP where he acquired his Private pilot certificate. In seven years he went from private pilot certificate to being a pilot for a major carrier. Now he flies A320s for AA. He is type rated in a Embry air 175, B737 and his current A320.
Indeed you can learn and apply that learning to the real world of Avation on a 300 dollar desktop!
A lot of the points in this video seem pretty silly given the subject. The question is "Can a PC flight simulator teach you to fly?" The obvious answer to this is "yes", of course it can. There are too many videos showing this exact thing happening for it not to be true. But this gentleman quickly starts going off the rails with stuff like not being able to properly navigate long distance CROSS COUNTRY flights in a flight sim (just one example).
That doesn't really have anything to do with strictly "learning to fly"-- that's learning to navigate across the country.
It just kind of seems like the original question ("Can a PC simulator teach you to fly"?) very shortly after the start of the video takes a quick turn to something more like, _"Can a PC flight simulator teach you everything you'll ever need to know to fly every flight under every condition in/out of every airport in every Geographic location and every situation?"_ To which the answer is clearly, "No ", of course it can't.
Seems to me like this gentleman is trying to prove that you can't just play a PC simulator for a few months and be ready for your first day at your new job flying a 747 internationally with Southwest Airlines. But I've yet to hear anyone in the world claim that's the case. It's almost like a strawman argument.
But could someone, after using a PC flight simulator for a few months, go to their local airport, hop in a Cessna 152, start it up, taxi to the runway, take off, fly a pattern, land, taxi back to the hanger, and shut it down? Of course they could. And if they did that, that person would absolutely have successfully flown an aircraft that day, and would have been "taught to fly" by a PC simulator.
This guy is saying "learn to fly", but he's _talking_ about "learn to be a well-rounded professional pilot".... Huge difference!
using the Avitab plug in in VR you can have all the checklists and maps and charts you could ever want btw
I WAS FORMED BY Rod machado in fs2000 and 2004 ...FSX pilot rank. I just wants to perform better moments of flight sim by using 3D cockpit with helmet virtual reality but i haven't any possibilities ...at the moment.
For VR users I highly recommend voiceattack. Its a cheep game saver. I’ve been using it on X-Plane and dcs. Works amazing for comms commands.
I have logged several thousands of hours of real-world flight time, from Military, Commercial Airline and General Aviation and even Gliding having flown many different types of aircraft from my first flights in a Cessna 152 aged 24 back in 1987 through to flying long haul Air Cargo on the Boeing 707-320c and Pax on the Boeing 727-200 for tow commercial airliners as well as twin-engine turboprop aircraft such as the BAe HS 748f inter-city commuter aircraft types as well as a wide selection of single-engine light GA aircraft from the Pitts special S-2 a fully aerobatic stunt aircraft, to the somewhat exotic Czechoslovaklian ex-military training aircraft called the Zlin aircraft. I am a former RAF trained pilot and got to fly the BAe T-1 Hawk a single-engine advanced fast jet training aircraft. The same aircraft type as the Red Arrows RAF display team fly.
The comments offered in this video I feel are completely wrong. However, before I explain why. It's important to understand that flying a flight sim has its place within flying training and I'm a big flight simmer as well as real-world flying. A flight sim will not make you a Pilot for that you need real flight training under the training and instruction of a qualified flying instructor, but it is more than fair to say that Home Flight Simulation when it has been set up well with a good quality Yoke or Joystick and rudder peddles correctly placed throttle quadrant and radio stack with a good headset with additional add on third-party programmes can have a real place in the homes for real-world pilots. and is regularly used by real-world pilots for procedural flying training and practice. The correlation between the flight simulator and first-hand knowledge and experience of actual real-world flying provides a greater understanding in relation to the simulated experience of flying.
Therefore home flight simulation will make an experienced pilot a better pilot. but, it won't make an untrained pilot into a pilot. This in part is simply due to a none trained pilot not having any real-world experience of flying to draw from allowing the brain to fill in for the differences in real-world flight with handling an aircraft feeling the airflow over the wing surfaces buffeting, grown effect positive and negative G forces to simulated flight in or on a home flight simulator unless flying an enclosed cockpit with full-motion.
Clearly, the presenter making this video is still a student pilot and therefore still has limited experience to draw upon. To a degree part of getting the most out of a home flight simulator has to be real-world experience to draw upon and a good level of imagination. But still well worth having regardless of if you are a real-world pilot or a flight simmer. Some years ago I stopped flying for six years but kept flying my home built flight sim on a regular basis when I returned to my flying career, my instructor was extremely surprised at how well I was able to fly and land the aircraft after such a long time away from real-world flying.
A well-built home flight sim and hardware controls are worth their weight in gold. remember poor hardware equals poor flight sim performance and experience. I suspect that the hardware controls and calibration is spoiling his level of realism and aircraft simulation performance. Please remember these two facts. Commercial Airline Pilots and Military Pilots use professional flight simulation for training and testing of pilot performance, airmanship aircraft technical knowledge and procedures, CRM, instrument procedures, SID, ILS approaches, navigation and the professional competency of a Pilot and handling in-flight emergencies. with a training Captain or training instructor/officer namely a TRE-IRE or a flight examiner. it all depends on how one approaches flight simulation, as a game or as a valuable training aid.
This video is alright but it's kind of weird how quick you are to dismiss things that a sim CAN do. Yes, there is a lack of "feel" when you fly a simulated Aircraft, but why does that matter so much? Sims can you teach you how to do proper ILS landings, procedures for both normal and emergency situations, FMS functions, how to fly an approach or departure using instruments only, reading aircraft charts, things that are ACTUALLY hard and difficult to do. Why does it matter so much that you can't fly VFR all the time in a sim? Learning how to fly VFR and by the seat of your pants is something anyone can do, which is exactly why it's on the bottom pole of difficulty when you get your licenses. The fact that sims can teach people to properly work with some of the complex systems in a modern aircraft, I think, makes it a much more valuable tool than you are leading on.
But the real question is
Can my roblox flight simulator teach me to fly
Is the cost of a sim ($$ and time) beneficial in flight training?
I see a 3D Pro in the video. That's a good joystick right there.
There is-oh, you already mentioned the multiplayer traffic mods. I agree though-ATC functionality is severely lacking in Flight sims in general.
Edit: as someone who's made custom aircraft for X-plane, the way X-Plane calculates stall behavior is a bit odd, and despite the fact that it's more accurate from a technical standpoint, all that goes out the window if the actual aircraft relies on the few aerodynamic principles it *doesn't* yet model. The fuselage frontal drag coefficient vs the station geometry of the fuse physics shape controls the calculated drag of the side profile. wings generate vortex drag *at the wing root* if you're not careful in how you assemble the physics shape, all sorts of strange things (Most of what I actually DO in Xplane is try and make random flying machines that have no business getting airborne...)
Oddly this means that some of my awful clones fly better then expected, and better then they aught to (waves invisible internet hand to the pile of totally-not-an-F104 aircraft he made in the old Xplane 9 days)
I don't think modern high end home computers are ad far behind professional flight simulators as you say they are. I mean, they're obviously better but computers have improved so much, a modern $2,000 rig is likely equivalent to a pro grade commercial simulator just ten years ago.. I doubt the best simulator of 1999 would hold a candle to what Microsoft flight sim 2020 will be capable of. Computers are improving faster than you think, it won't take until "ryzen 25" to get there. Lol.
I also don't even need to be a pilot to know that your argument is kind of pointless, of course a 35 dollar consumer grade flight simulator isn't going to be as good as real life experience.. I don't think there's an intelligent person alive who thinks otherwise. It's a non argument, real life is more real than a video game.. Like, duh.
But that doesn't mean that simulators aren't useful, they're downright amazing and we could've only dreamed of having such fantastic learning tools thirty years ago.. We would've shit our pants if we were handed this technology back then, it might as well have been magic..
This software is still going to be limited compared to rl.. No computer can ever hope to realistically simulate the real world to that level, it'd have to be the matrix for christ sake.. But they already do alright for the money and they're improving at a staggering pace. This stuff is useful.
I'm sure there are a lot of idiots who go into real flying with bad habits because of vr sims, but I still think the pros outweigh the cons. You're obviously a more knowledgeable and experienced pilot than I'll ever be but it's just my two cents...